Being Spiritual

 

1)             How would you separate the definition of religious vigor from that of a spiritual life?

There is a big difference between spirituality and religiosity. Let me first define what I mean by spirituality. This term is so vague that every person interprets it differently. I often have discussions with religious people who tell me something utterly absurd and when I question the rationality of it they say, you have to understand it spiritually.  That is not my definition of spirituality. Blind faith in absurdities does not mean spirituality in my book. I understand spirituality as the expression of love – love for our fellow humans, animals, nature and ourselves. Mother Teresa’s service to the needy was a spiritual work.

Religiosity is adherence to certain ideologies and dogma that often foment haltered of the outsider, and make one less spiritual. Any belief that divides mankind into “us” versus”them” is an obstacle to spirituality. As long as I believe in love I consider myself a spiritual being. Since love defines everything I do I see myself as primarily a spiritual person, or as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin put it, I see myself as a spiritual being, having a physical experience.  Maybe that is why I am not religious. Most religions make their followers feel righteous and superior; they promote paranoia, distrust, disunity and discord and the result is impediment to spirituality.  Religion, unfortunately, is too often an instrument of discord and disunity.

2)             Do you feel life is a gift, a punishment or a lesson?

Life is what you want it to be. You can take it as a gift, a punishment, a lesson or even a curse.

3)              Does life have a purpose?

Yes, but it is you who gives purpose to it.  Life without a purpose is empty and joyless. If you have a purpose then your life becomes fulfilling. People who suffer from depression often have a lot of potential that has remained untapped. They see the train of life is passing by and they are not on it.  These people need a purpose in their lives, something meaningful to live for. They need love. Love can be expressed in many forms.

  • It can be lofty, like love for knowledge, for service to humanity, etc.
  • It can be personal, like love for another person or persons.
  • It can be mundane, like love for wealth, fame, and power.
  • It can be imaginary, like love for god.

All these manifestations of love give meaning to our life. When life has a purpose, it becomes joyous.  Living a thousand years of a fulfilling life does not seem to be enough, while living one day of an unfulfilling life appears to be a torment.  To make your life happy and fulfilling, you need someone or something to love.

The choice is yours. Love for lofty objects is better than love for mundane or imaginary ones. Even though the object of love is imaginary, it gives meaning to life. It is your involvement, dedication and the intensity of your love that counts, not its object.

4)             Most people find inspiration in their faith, what would you say to those who find their inspiration through life experiences?

I am among those who find inspiration in life experiences. Good deeds inspire me. Acts of courage inspire me. Dedication, service, compassion and love inspire me.

However, I acknowledge that faith is a source of inspiration for many people.  It does not matter whether the object of your love is imaginary, mundane, personal or lofty. Whatever the case, you can find inspiration and meaning in life. That is why I am not against religion. Loving an imaginary being like God can be life transforming. I believe those who fight religion and the belief in God are mistaken. Faith in God has a tremendous placebo effect. It should not be undermined.

I don’t advocate atheism, even though I don’t believe in God as a being.  My hope is that believers worship a loving god, rather than a vindictive and sadistic one.

To say “God is one” is the biggest lie. There are as many gods as there are people, or at least believers. God is our creation. Every person envisions his or her God in accordance to their own penchant.  Allah is the figment of Muhammad’s sick mind. Muhammad suffered from narcissistic personality disorder. Consequently, Allah is haughty, paranoid, vindictive and deceitful, because he is molded after Muhammad. The God of Jesus is a loving Father. He resembles Jesus.  He too has his flaws. He is jealous and will punish those who don’t love him with eternal damnation.

While I understand the importance of the belief in God, we must invent one that is an embodiment of everything that is noble, beautiful and lofty. The belief in evil gods makes us do evil things. Civilized societies should repudiate such gods and eschew the belief in them. The Aztecs believed in Huitzilopochtli, a war god. It is estimated that approximately 20,000 people per year were sacrificed by the Aztec royalty to appease this deity.  Does Huitzilopochtli have any place in our world?  Of course not! We must not accept that god or tolerate the belief in him. Allah is no less bloodthirsty than Huitzilopochtli. Allah is an evil deity. Good people must reject diabolical gods.

5)             Do you feel religions look at humanity as willful children or something to be exploited?

Most religions treat humans as wayward and willful children that need to be disciplined. Many people want to be disciplined and be told what to do and what not to do, even though they know the difference between right and wrong on their own. For these people religion is godsend, please forgive the pun.  I know many people who say, “I am a better person because of my religion; my religion teaches me to be honest; my religion prohibits me to lie; my religion instructs me to be kind, etc.”  The question I’d ask these people is, would they be dishonest, deceitful or unkind if they were not believers? One person wrote, without religion nothing will stop people from fornicating with their mothers. I asked him whether he lusted after his mother and whether his religion is the only thing that stops him from jumping to bed with her.  The absurdity of this argument is self explanatory.

I even received an email from an Obama worshipper who said he is a better person because of Obama. Go figure! Some people are so weak that they need to lean on an imaginary crutch, even though this imaginary crutch is a buffoon like Obama whose entire life is filled with chicanery and crime. These people stand up on their own, but the idea that they are empowered by someone much greater than them gives them strength. It boosts their morals.

The object of faith is irrelevant. As long as you believe in it, it can inspire you. The problem is when the object of belief is evil. Then you do evil. If you believe in a loving god you become loving and if you believe in a hateful god you learn to hate.

I recognize the importance of faith. I am not against it. I am against hate. I am the enemy of all the ideologies that promote hate, be it Nazism, communism, racism, or Islam.

6)               Do religions exploit their followers?

That is their raison d’être.  Religions were created and are perpetuated to exploit. In exchange they give you hope. You surrender your rational thinking, and fill the pockets of the faith brokers. In return, they give you promises of afterlife, an imaginary god that takes care of you and make you feel good.  The feel good factor is important. I don’t see anything wrong it that, as long as you don’t pay too much for it.

I usually don’t buy lottery tickets. I know the odds don’t warrant risking my two dollars. However, when the jackpot grows to thirty million dollars or more, I buy a ticket. The odds have not changed and I don’t expect to win. It is the dream that I buy. I spend two dollars and for a few days I dream about what I would do with millions of dollars. It is a sweet dream, worth the price of the ticket. But it would be foolish if I spent my life saving on that dream or bought hundreds of tickets to improve the odds of winning.

Playing lottery should not be seen as investment. Likewise giving up this life for the promise of something uncertain and unproven as the next life is equally foolish.  It is okay to dream about the afterlife. But don’t give up this life for it. It could be the only one you’ll ever have. I have seen people who have won the big jackpot, but no one, as far as we know for certain, has come back from the other world to tell us about it.

7)             Should every soul be accountable for ending the life of another?

Life is sacred and those who take it away should be accountable.  An ideology or a religion that tells you to kill others is an evil ideology and has no place in our world. Not only do I value human life, I also value animal life. I am a vegan. I hope everyone becomes a vegan. It is good for your body and soul and it is good for our planet.

8)             Can a person have the power to change the world if they desire to do so?

One person cannot change the world, but any person can influence others so together they can change the world. The idea and the initiative come from one person but it is the power of the multitude that makes that idea advance.

The world is what it is because of those who, for good or bad, changed it. Some were good people and they changed the word for the better and some were evil people who brought discord, wars, death and destruction.  Plato, Aristotle, Buddha, Jesus, Copernicus, Gutenberg, Newton and Einstein changed the world. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Genghis Khan and Muhammad also changed the world. The first group changed the world for the better and the latter changed it for the worse.

9)             When you pass from this world to the other what do you feel your legacy will be, and would you be proud of it?

I would like to be one of those people who have changed the world for the better. We all have this potential within us. I have finally found a way to do it. If I awaken a few thousand people (I have done that already) who will each awaken others, the world will change. Whether my name is remembered or not is unimportant. The important thing is to change the world for the better.  The goal is to leave a trace, not necessarily a name.

Today, the disease that is threatening the survival of our civilization and even our species is Islam. Islam is a murderous ideology. It is a diabolic faith. Muslims are normal people who are transformed into monsters once they are possessed by the demonic spirit of the madman of the desert, Muhammad. Now that deadly weapons of mass destruction are falling into the hands of Muslims the future of mankind is uncertain.  Exposing Islam and eradicating it will halt its progress and may impede, even stop a calamitous destruction of the Earth.  If you prevent a disaster from happening no one will know it and no one will thank you for it. But that does not diminish the importance of what you did.  I want all those who fight against Islam to know that they are unsung heroes and the real savors of mankind. I would like to be one of them. That is the greatest legacy one can leave behind.

10)             If all of humanity values the same basic “need to live”, then why do we quarrel so much?

We quarrel because we disagree. People in the past fought over territory. Now we have international courts and don’t need to resort to arms to defend our rights, unless of course, you don’t give a hoot about the law and the only law you recognize is the law of the jungle, where “might is right”, as generally Muslims do.

Most of the bloodshed in recent history is caused by differences in ideologies.  Almost all of today’s wars are inspired by ideologies.  An ideology can be atheistic, like Nazism and communism, or theistic like Islam.  Theistic ideologies are a lot more dangerous because they don’t allow dialogue and questioning. Their truth is based on divine revelation, which is hocus-pocus.  To disagree with it is too often called by the believers “blasphemy” and viewed as punishable, especially in the case of Islam.  If we get rid of ideologies, particularly the self righteous ones that encourage fighting, we will then start seeing that we humans are all the same.  The oneness of mankind is possible when we get rid of spurious beliefs. No belief can be proven. If they did they would not be called belief, but fact.

All beliefs are not equal. In India there are thousands of religions. Many of them are irrational, but they are not violent and supremacists. False beliefs don’t harm anyone. It is violent beliefs that are dangerous. Although I don’t believe in any religion, I defend their right of people to believe them. I oppose only Islam, Nazism, and communism.  These three big ideologies are nefarious. Because they are intolerant they should not be tolerated.

11 )       If you learned that someone is about to hurt a friend or loved one what would you do to him?

Evil should be stopped with force. Turning the other cheek will encourage the bully. This philosophy presumes that the person who slaps you has a conscience and becomes remorseful when you turn the other cheek. That is generally not the case. The person who has a conscience will not slap you in the first place. Abusers are sociopaths.  By turning the other cheek they become emboldened. They interpret your tolerance as sign of weakness. They feel empowered and intensify their abuse. Pacifism is impractical in most cases.

Gandhi’s pacifist resistance against the British government bore fruit because he appealed to the conscience of the ordinary British. He would have never succeeded had he to deal with people like Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer who ordered his Indian solders to shoot into an unarmed crowd of men, women and children in Jallianwala Bagh, without warning, killing and injuring over 1500 unarmed people.

Reginald Dyer was a man bereft of humanity and conscience. After each round of shooting, he ordered his fifty solders to reload magazines into their rifles several times and shoot people trapped in the square.

A man like Dyer would have killed fifteen thousand or fifteen million people. You cannot expect a man with no conscience to come to his senses. History is full of people like him. Hitler, Stalin. Mao, Pol Pot and Muhammad, are just few examples.

Let us assume after killing tens of thousands of people the criminal realizes what he is doing is wrong. Who cares? Why saving the soul of a monster should matter more than saving the lives of his victims?

Bullies must be stopped by force. That is the only language they understand and speak.

Muhammad was a narcissist bully and Muslims are like him. They advance through terror and continue to do so. They must be stopped with force.  They were stopped in Europe by the crusaders and in Granada by force. Today, we have to do the same.

Nature does not recognize good and evil. It responds to force. If good people remain pacifist, evil people will win. It is foolish to say we don’t want to use force because we will be like them (the bad guys).  This is extremely foolish. Violence must be stopped with force.

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  1. Demsci says:

    //"your flawed system  Its corrupted and imperfect. Random and inconsitent. No certainity."//

    Look Narcole, big cities and states, with societal systems, are around 5.500 years. In the UN there are now 192 countries.

    And I am in favor of comparing their societal systems, which they have tried, and still try. and then find the best and avoid the bad or non-working systems. On criteria like longevity, happiness, prosperity, moral society, equal rights, unalienable birthrights, such as human rights, women's rights. Or you name it. For the majority of people, but we can never satisfy all humans all their lives, I think.

    But you, like Anjem Choudary, somehow REJECT one of the working societal systems, and present ONLY an alternative, comprehensive system IN YOUR MINDS. Not even in Islamic countries, says Choudary, the ideal Islamic societal system is practiced. It is as yet practiced NOWHERE and NEVER. If you think otherwise, bring on the country that practices or practiced your ideal societal system. Then we compare.

    All practiced and tried systems are flawed, but also do have benefits. And the societal systems are compared, in time and throughout 192 countries, by statisticians.

    And we better choose the best working ones for the most people.

    And NOT THOSE SUPPOSEDLY PERFECT societal systems, existing only on paper and in some people's minds!

  2. Demsci says:

    //"My body can only survive for years, but my spirit/soul is eternal."//
    After this we go to the new thread, I suppose. You can answer me there. On that new thread Ali Sina agrees with your above wonderful thought. I myself say it is very possible and I love it to be true. It would comfort me so much. But in case it is not true, then I will try to give up my ego, since this is really what craves this "eternal soul".

    Also I don't comprehend the term "eternal" in this context. Because that would mean "souls" did exist even before the start of life, which is estimated 4,5 billion years ago? Or perhaps before the start of multiple-cell-life-forms, perhaps # 540 million years ago? Why, how did souls exist before that? How will souls exist after our sun dies?

    It is just so hard for me to blindly believe something that promises me something great, just because of the promise. I rather adapt to the highest truth I can find than that I think that something promised in the afterlife exists and that it is my thinking that causes it. Because I know my thinking on itself cannot cause heaven or reincarnation, no matter how hard I wish it.

  3. cchuckc says:

    @Demsci,
    Thanks. Moore's Law.. hmmm.. I didn't consider it, primarily because I wasn't theorizing on the technicalities of computer evolution but just drawing a parallel between biological evolution and computer evolution in lay man's term. The intent was to show that evolution isn't such an alien concept after all. When you look back on the history of hardware and software evolutions you can only cavil at the simplicity of the Von Neumann Architecture and computational structure of the Turing Machine and yet the diversity of computers, the DSLR, the laptop, the tab, the smart phone, the smart TV all are result of these basic 'gene pool'.

    //Thanks, I learn a lot from you.//
    And I from you. In that sense I 'evolve' too:-).

  4. Demsci says:

    //"Insulting is only for weak person."//

    But often the "receiver', "interpreter" of the words judges wrong, about the intentions of the "senders". The so-called "insulting" may come from a strong person with a genuine complaint about cruel, criminal, deceitful, stupid actions of intentions of some present or past revered humans.

    And if we give power to the "receivers, interpreters" we very much risk to throw away "the baby with the washing water".

  5. Demsci says:

    //"And one thing for sure, no learned man insult. Insult is only from weak person."//
    Of course! But you see, you talk about the "sender" and his/ her intentions. But there is also the "receiver". And the receiver may draw the boundaries of free speech too close, by too early declaring, well,

    Genuine passionate (therefore strong-worded) criticism (on humans, NOT on God) as, well,

    "Blasphemous", "insulting", "racist".

    example; you earlier wrote that to insult the messenger is to insult the sender.

    But wait a minute; that "messenger" only CLAIMED to be sent by God. If that is in doubt, it is also in doubt that God is insulted.  what would HE care if some impostor was being insulted? He might even like it.

    We are saying that we should not censor ourselves just because of people's sensitivities, even if the sensitive people are numerous and powerful. At least not within clear wide boundaries.

  6. Demsci says:

    //"Why are you targeting only Muslims and even a woman "Narcole"."//

    Hello Slave, it would seem that Chuck targets Muslims and especially Narcole.
    But if that were true, then Chuck would have some sort of grudge against Muslims and a personal grudge against Narcole. But our attitude is never personal.

    I do not think that Chuch has such a grudge. He is not against human beings primarily, he does not hate Narcole, or you, personally, I think.

    Ali Sina, He and we, are all about being against Islam, not Muslims. We believe in the concept of "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner". See, we believe in a way that believing in and following Islam is your"sin". And THAT in you Muslims we target.

    And Chuck wants society FREE FROM something bad, Islam, as a whole. Whereas I want you Muslims to be FREE TO choose some better alternative to only some problematic parts of Islam, in your hopefully long, blessed lives.

  7. Demsci says:

    Hey, thanks for that input, Chuck, I am trying to wrap my head around your information. Say the development of 70 years of computers (#1945-2014). Well, did you consider in this context "Moore's Law"? It states that every 18 months computer roughly double in capacity and speed. This law is finite and operates perhaps between 1965 and 2035. This is fast evolution and the evolution of computers could, as you suggest, become an example of species diversification.

    So we may have supplied Narcole with a reposte to her creationist stance of diversification of species NEVER happening.

    Thanks, I learn a lot from you. Like you saying that you only "attack" a concept of God, instead of a real God.  I keep picking up interesting valuable concepts from you, thanks and compliments.

  8. Demsci says:

    //"You believe Ali Sina is rational then why don't your Guru expose lies of Bible???"//

    SlaveOfProphet (SOP), that is a frequently asked question (FAQ), an old one. You should go to the ABOUT ME-section of this Ali Sina-website, there you'll find the answer to this FAQ. But I can quote from this section:
    //"Islam is more than a religion. It is also a state… a totalitarian political ideology that aims to overthrow all systems of governments and establish a worldwide theocratic dictatorship."//

    //:This religion is a hoax. Hoax and – hypes.  But that is not what should concern us. What should concern us is that it’s a threat to mankind.  Islam reduces its followers to brainless hate mongers.  Hate is the essence of this faith… – hate of the non-believers, hate of the believers who interpret Islam differently, hate of those who leave Islam, hate of women, hate of homosexuals, hate of freethinkers, hate of the Jews, and the list goes on. Even dogs and pigs have not been spared from hate"//

    I add: Islam is or can be abused to be a competitor to freedom and democracy. 33 Shariah-laws are essentially Un- or Anti-democratic says Nonnie Darwish. Whereas Christianity does not present this problem, or if it does, in far less proportion.

  9. cchuckc says:

    @Demsci
    Her Allah is yet to send me Gabriel bringing the milk. I don't blame you for not 'evolving' into another species altogether :-)..
    On a serious note though, as you said, evolution happened over millions of years aided by massive Geophysical events. It is stupid for somebody to want to see its effect within 1 hour. But it is possible to see evolution of some kind on a smaller scale. One prime example is computers. In last 70 years we have seen EDVAC evolve into ENIAC then into IC processors and thence to more complex architectures. The basic genome of the computer has remained more or less same, the Von Neumann Architecture, yet we see diversity. We CAN call that speciation of some kind. Different machines which work well in different environments, Conversely environment effecting the choice of the species, a PC for home, an Application Server for office, a mainframe for big enterprise etc. We see the same 'evolution in smaller scale' in softwares too, the basic concept of computation hasn't undergone much of a change.

    Progress is very natural. Just my two pence. .

  10. Demsci says:

    //"He makes you as the weak insulter only. Unable to do something else, like at least introducing the real god."//

    Again, very well said, Narcole. As Chuck is the one who wants mankind FREE FROM ISLAM.

    But I, his ally, can present something like "the real god". Not exactly, but I can present something I want humans to be FREE TO practice, without hindrance from Islam. Extensively, as you know.

    Many other infidels, do have alternatives for big parts of Islam; about God, morals and values, good laws, good societal system, good relations between all humans, and also men and women etc.

    And yes, many of us even have a great alternative afterlife, like the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists.

    To all that YOU, and the Muslims, are the "infidels", "deniers", "obstructors", "weak insulters". 

  11. Demsci says:

    //"but one thing for sure, when he comes, whatever he speaks, ill follow. I wont be his dajjal enemy follower."//

    You can prepare yourself as follows: To Jesus, when he comes, you prepare to say: Sorry, I did not trust your messengers, they made your coming not clear and convincing enough, when better theories about history and the motivation and mental state of your messengers were presented to me. Which I duly studied, after which I decided your messengers were faulty humans, not speaking for you.

    He can't blame you for studying and thinking logically. If he does, he is unreasonable and cruel, oppressive, as Chuck explained.

    But he can forgive you and say; Do you believe in me NOW? And when you say: YES! And he will take you in then, after giving convincing proof, not before!

    Come to think of it, it is Chuck and Sina who give you more convincing proof than Jesus, or God. But you don't believe Chuck and Sina!

    Why the difference in accepting the word of the "messengers" and not the word of their opponents? Really? Your feelings? Certain promises, prospects, good relations, loyalties?

  12. Demsci says:

    //"And he sent the last, cos the end is coming. "//
    At least inform yourself with the countless traditions that proclaimed the "end was near". It was already present among the Jews in the second century BC. Perhaps almost every century since has had it's "chiliasts", doom-prophets, end-of-time-predicters. There were dozens, followed by millions. They of course all failed, miserably, since their dates past without any "judgement days".

    As you said: Do you think your ancestors never thought like you?

    It is a good warning though and I take it to heart. I am prepared to change my theories, when better theories are presented to me.

  13. Demsci says:

    //"You cant deny that god did send somebodies"//
    If I DENY it, I will be on the side of NO, and you on the side of YES.

    But I can give alternative explanations for the motivation and instructions of all those you call prophets and the history of mankind. I do have a big story to compete with yours and to match yours.

    That means that YOU, Narcole, are a DENIER of my alternative explanations, which are much better supported by MOST RECENT evidence and logic. Given by highly intelligent and informed professionals.

    Your explanations are essentially those of yesterday! Given by people of the past, not yet so intelligent and informed. And the present audiences are also more intelligent and informed than those when your theories were formed. Those of the past were more gullible. But it is still the Obsolete side you choose.

    And FOR WHAT?

  14. Demsci says:

    //"now i want to see you, now, yes, now, to evolve to another species"//
    Ohhhh, I can't. Now what? Will you give yourself license to continue to gamble on Islam, and what it gives you? What it promises you and mankind? Will you tell yourself you were right to invest so much of your life in Islam?

    If you did, you would be merely "escaping, putting your head in the sand", giving yourself excuses.

    Evolution happened over long periods of time and many generations. Still, even now sometimes we see it in action. Isolated populations of mice on islands start to grow bigger. The variety of dogs is enormous, and yes, in time, some dogs would evolve in distinctly different species.

  15. cchuckc says:

    //Okay, I didnt see you transform into any animal or alien yet.//
    By the same logic ask your Allah to send Gabriel to me in 10 minutes bringing me a bottle of Pasteurized milk. I guess this will be a simple task for Him.

  16. cchuckc says:

    @slave
    //I request you to abandon your childish attitude and come in true religion Islam which is religion of your ancestors.//
    And I request you to abandon your childish attitude and come out of Islam.

    //You seem to be believer in Christianity. Dear, Christianity is totally fake religion and Bible is corrupted book.I have enough evidence to prove it.//
    Well we have already shown enough evidences to prove that Islam is an inhuman religious dogma. As far as Christanity is concerned some time, some other day. OK? I am not in good mood today 🙂

  17. slaveofprophet says:

    @chackc
    I request you to abandon your childish attitude and come in true religion Islam which is religion of your ancestors. Allah is most merciful he will forgive your all sins. Just do tauba. As per holy Quran divine verse
    Also Allah (SWT) Most High says in Noble Qur'an, "O you who believe! Turn (in repentance) to Allah with sincere repentance; Perhaps your Lord will remove your evil from you… " (66:8)

    You seem to be believer in Christianity. Dear, Christianity is totally fake religion and Bible is corrupted book.I have enough evidence to prove it.

  18. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Okey, What do you want to expose here?//
    Islam and its absurdities.

    //Why are you commenting here?//
    Because that is the purpose of this forum.

    //Why are you targeting only Muslims and even a woman "Narcole".//
    What do you mean by 'even a woman'? Do you think they are so weak that they can't speak their mind out? By the way I didn't invite her or anybody to comment, just as I came uninvited here. Why only muslims? Because that is the purpose of this forum.

    //Why are you soft on absurdities and contradiction in Bible?//
    I haven't said anything in defense of Bible or any other religion unless comments are made against them to deflect the issues in Islam. For example I talked about Matthew 5:22 only because @Narcole suggested that Jesus prohibits anybody being called a fool.

  19. slaveofprophet says:

    @chackc
    Okey,  What do you want to expose here? Why are you commenting here? Why are you targeting only Muslims and even a woman "Narcole". Why are you soft on absurdities and contradiction in Bible? Are you christian?

  20. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet,

    //You believe Ali Sina is rational//
    I haven't said anything about my views on Ali Sina.

    //then why don't your Guru//
    He is not my Guru.

    //expose lies of Bible. //
    I don't think fo rhim. He/She can expose what he/she wants to expose.

  21. slaveofprophet says:

    @cchucks
    You believe Ali Sina is rational then why don't your Guru expose lies of Bible.

    MT 16:28, MK 9:1, LK 9:27 Jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. This was said almost 2000 years ago. 
    (Note: This passage and many others indicate that Jesus was to come again in a relatively short period of time and not just "quickly" as present day Biblicists assert. All of his listeners are now dead, yet Jesus has not come again in his kingdom. All of the alleged words of Jesus put forth in the Bible are therefore suspect.)

    MK 16:17-18 A believer can handle snakes or drink poison and not experience any harm. 
    (Note: Many unfortunate believers have died as a result of handling snakes and drinking poison. This kind of assertion negates the Bible as a useful guidebook for life.)

    EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)

  22. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Freedom in insulting. Insulting isnt speech.//
    If your idea of Allah and Gabriel is caught to be imaginative, and Muhammad is found to be thug and called one, then you will consider that an insult. And then kill the 'offender'. Wow!! Very good. Instead of arguing constructively in proving why you think Muhammad wasn't a thug or why you think your concept of Allah and Gabriel are correct!!

  23. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //And one thing for sure, no learned man insult. Insult is only from weak person.//
    But learned people kill? Bravo, well done. Learned people can disagree, can voice disagreements and allows other to disagree and voice their disagreements even to the point of ridiculing their own cherished ideas.

  24. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //God dislikes damned evil mr chuck. the place is in eternal hell. And you are evil follower. No mercy for the damned unless repent. //
    If God dislikes me, and my place is already reserved in eternal hell, even repentance isn't going to absolve me :-). Your last sentence goes against your first three. By the way no infinitely merciful God will institute eternal hellfire. So your concept of Allah is flawed. Think about it kid.

  25. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //eventhough live among native speakers, but you cant hide your non native speaker mistakes in English which native speakers wouldnt have done.//
    My nationality doesn't matter. You are free to make any conclusion. The point remains if you don't know the meaning of common English words like 'evidence' and 'fact' then your English is surely very poor and you should look for the meanings in a dictionary. I have given you URLs to meaning of some words already. However if you disagree with these meanings then you should furnish your own meaning of these words. Something which you haven't done, and I am sure you are incapable of doing. As far as "non native speaker mistakes in English" is concerned you can, may be give me 10-15 samples from my entire collection of posts.

  26. cchuckc says:

    //That pattern again, not gonna work. I wont leave you until you tell me which belief 😉 //
    :-). I have already answered it. But you didn't understand. Your poor comprehension skills come to the fore. Any belief that says God exists and is infinitely merciful and omnipotent will have no problem in thinking of God as one capable of providing parental love and care, friendly nudges in the right directions and philosophical enrichment of the minds to differ between the good and bad. Such a God is then Father, Mother, Friend, Philosopher and Guide. If your Allah is incapable of that and only groups people as pious servants and evil enemies and then He is a false God. Do you accept that Allah is incapable of showing these attributes?

  27. Nizamuddin Sheikh says:

    Yeah you are right sister, but used wrong word, you should have  used "Islam is the worst. Nothing is better than worst." 

  28. I dont want to live with body with spirit being hurt. So this being spiritual topic is empty. You dont respect any spirit. My body can only survive for years, but my spirit/soul is eternal.

  29. I dont want to guess, i see you cant define your flawed system  Its corrupted and imperfect. Random and inconsitent. No certainity.

  30. God does have anger. If you think god doesnt, then you dont know God.

  31. Demsci, a tourist in his journey could get astrayed and needs guide. 

  32. Demsci, even if you allow me to rob you, i wont allow you to rob me. Also if you allow me to rob your family, i wont allow you to rob mine.

  33. Freedom in insulting. Insulting isnt speech.

  34. Tsk tsk i dontl ike to gamble with people who admit they are wrong. Its playing to lose.

  35. I wasnt talking about Prophet Muhammad shollallahu 3alaihi wa sallam. I was talking about gabriel. who are you to insult holy spirit? and  make fun of real god?

  36. Lol your system imperfect and will always be imperfect. 

  37. Okay, i didnt see you transform into any animal or alien yet.

  38. And one thing for sure, no learned man insult. Insult is only from weak person.

  39. This world isnt created for jokes, okay. So dont think insulting the greatest king as a joke.

  40. So you are weak, as human for your status. You still Insult God.

  41. Look, demsci. How old the age of this earth is? How many prophets and messengers sent? You cant deny that god did send somebodies. Even many Already. And he sent the last, cos the end is coming. If you dont admit Muhammad Shollallahu 3alaihi wa sallam, there still jesus, and alive until now. And his time to come is very near. And after that, the end. So be aware that you are the last ummat in this world. Our ancestors kept repeating same old arguments, but still evils exist until now. Why dont you take lesson? Do you think our ancestors never thought like you? And didnt you see the fact of their condition now? Idc what you think about jesus, but one thing for sure, when he comes, whatever he speaks, ill follow. I wont be his dajjal enemy follower. 

  42. Lol demsci, now i want to see you, now, yes, now, to evolve to another species, now.  maybe sponge bob or alien. Or ill give you time 1 hour to do that. 

  43. That pattern again,  not gonna work. I wont leave you until you tell me which belief  😉

  44. God dislikes damned evil mr chuck. the place is in eternal hell. And you are evil follower. No mercy for the damned unless repent. 

  45. Lol you are like sina, eventhough live among native speakers, but you cant hide your non native speaker mistakes in English which native speakers wouldnt have done.

  46. When did i say to kill all infidels? I only say to kill the damned infidels who insult god and gabriel.  I met many other infidels who dont insult like woman on net. they are still alive and comfy with me. 

  47. I wasnt talking about gabriel whom anyone painted. I was talking about real gabriel. Yup, hes REAL. 

  48. Demsci says:

    //"Careless about peace and harmony"//
    Suppose we all here want the most peace and harmony. And guess what; Democracy and Freedom of Speech is best for that. As humans can and do learn to accept "insults" and not respond to them with violence. But censorship is not good for peace and harmony.

    You seem to keep forgetting that people keep doing bad and stupid actions and that they lie and propagate falsehoods. If the victims of those actions CANNOT voice their complaints and frustration, when that is too soon labeled as "insults",

    then these victims and their helpers have no other recourse than violence or apathy to react to the bad and stupid actions and lies.

    But with insults mere words are exchanged and under democracy and freedom of speech complaints and frustration are addressed better than under dictatorship and censorship.

  49. Demsci says:

    //"but demsci, i think i understand why u insult god, cos u insult your parents already too."//
    You wish. The alternative explanation is such that you would change your mind if you would believe that, which you hate, so you choose to explain my attitude "away."

    The alternative explanation is that God created me, gave me brains, that I search for the highest truth I can find with my limited capabilities, wherever it leads me.

    Which is more important than me only and always respecting God and other humans. And more important than their often prejudiced and wrong interpretation.

  50. Demsci says:

    //" If you want peace with others, do not disturb others. Mr chuck, ur old enough to undersand this golden rule."//
    Freedom of speech is often about "infidels" WRITING, on internet, newspapers, in books and speaking on TV. In response to Muslims, who WRITE and  SPEAK, give propaganda to the world, indoctrinate their children as if they own them and can decide their choice of religion for their WHOLE life.

    Infidels' insults in writing or speaking on TV,  is not disturbing people on the streets, workplaces or in their houses.

    And yet Salman Rushdie, Geert  Wilders, the Mohammed-cartoonists, and many others were threathened and sometimes killed.

    Oh, we practice the golden rule, all right, which is: Do not do to others that which you do not wish or allow others to do to you.

    Because we DO allow others to insult us in the exact same way and size as we insult others. It is Muslims, who forbid others to insult them, or their holy persons, books, but then insult others or their beloved persons or books, who violate the Golden Rule.

  51. Demsci says:

     //"I guess you are only here for insulting and arguieng."//
    You wish! The alternative is that Chuck speaks the truth, and exposes the faults, and shortcomings of the religion you gambled on, you invested so much in, you hope to get so much from.

    By contrast, we Darwinists are ready to let our founders and leaders be insultted, we are ready to admit at many points we were wrong if we are shown better theories and explanations. We do not stand to lose a "heaven" or risk a "hell" when we lose an argument, as you do. As a single fault in a supposedly faultless, perfect, right beliefsystem, would spoil it's perfection.

    we cherish the imperfection of our beliefsystem, we appreciate it means it can be indefinitely and constantly improved, while your beliefsystem, being already perfect, can't be improved.

  52. Demsci says:

    //"I was talking about insulter."//
    In Islamic theology insults are too broadly and vaquely defined.

    For starters, the Islamic scholars do not confine their verdict to only insulting GOD. You pretend forbidding insults is only about forbidding insults to God (but we say God laughs about insults).

    Islamic scholars, as you do, say, that insulting one particular human, MOhammed, makes one also very guilty. They say that the mere saying Mohammed was not a messenger from God is insulting him. Etc.

    The essential problems are:

    Who DECIDES, which is an insult to God and which is an insult to mere humans?

    Second; Who decides what constitutes an insult, and what not? Where are the boundaries? Bad and stupid people can construe so many valid criticisms or innocent remarks as being an insult. And if given the power to decide about it, they can so abuse that power. after abusing that power, they can then go on, silencing those who point out they abuse that power!!!

    Example: In Aleppo in 2013, a boy of about 14, named Mohammed Adda or so, selling coffee, said something to the effect that even Mohammed would not get free coffee from him. And he was SHOT, by Islamic Fundamentalists, for insulting the prophet!

  53. Demsci says:

    //"if you think one of your god is right, then why would your god want to be allied with other infidels gods?"//

    Well, a religion, lifestyle, societal system, that is huge, if it is to stand on it's own and function well. Furthermore, how can it start off, at a point in time, being perfect for all humans? It cannot.

    It must start off imperfect, it must aim at being the most beneficial, religion, lifestyle, societal system for the highest percentage of people.

    It cannot be completely "right", or perfect or the ONLY right, while all others are wrong. it can only be "the BEST", according to logical criteria. So there must be several religions, lifestyles and societal systems that compete, humans can choose from. 

    You are a perfectionist thinker, thinking in terms of ONLY ONE right, PERFECT beliefsystem. but consider that at best you can only choose the least faulty beliefsystem, that being the BEST (you can find at the best of your abilities and possibilities).

  54. Demsci says:

    //"Evolution is imagination for wishing to be something more than already given."//

    Narcole, we search for the highest truth we can find. Whatever it tells us.

    And so we do NOT gamble on the "story" that:
    – does not contradict our picture of the ideal world, the ideal history.
    – Fits our prejudices and likes best.
    – promises us some heaven, that Darwinism "fails" to promise.
    – concurs with that our parents and community, whom we love, believe, instead of a story bringing on their wrath, extreme displeasure, violence, us being ostracized or worse.

  55. Demsci says:

    Look, Slave, you yourself said" truth will always win".

    Narcole is using her precious time very well.

    And you are not one bit concerned about her time I daresay. But you ARE concerned with the effect of her contributions to our dialoque here, especially since they illicit such excellent, logical, factual responses from Chuck, for all to read, which otherwise (you think) would not be uttered so much, because not provoked by Narcole.

    But you too have invested your whole life in Islam, and you too cannot bear the thought of giving up Islam, and giving up heaven. So you are not in favor of mankind, but only of Islam. But for mankind, especially young, enquiring persons, the dialoque between Narcole and Chuck may be truly beneficial. 

  56. Demsci says:

    //"Im not the one who insults"//
    No, on this site, you are the (most) insulted. But on pro-Islam-sites we would be the insulted. And we would eventually be banned. But not you, here.

    You juxtapose insulting (being bad) to not insulting, being polite and respectful. But you do not even address the possibility of, well, evil and stupid thoughts, actions and proposals, and lies, deceits being responded to, by victims of them, or their helpers, with insults (and remember, they are words).

    Oh, I  know, you emphasize that GOD may not be insulted, but GOD laughs about insults (coming from "ants" in HIS perspective), but in reality you will end up helping human oppressors and convicting their victims and the helpers of the victims. in many occasions, as we see in history.

    Oh, I blame your youth, your indoctrination, and your idea that you have already invested too much in Islam and your tutor sheikhs, to ever give them up.

    But you may keep the good, and replace the bad with other good.

  57. Demsci says:

    Richard Dawkins can still talk to me, although he can't resurrect my parents. But I view his qualities from a perspective of "better than nothing, better than morally bad". You seem to be a perfectionist, wanting impossible things.

    And not only your messenger, but every person can talk to dead people. But what's the use? Who listen's, learns from it, and talks back among the dead?

  58. Demsci says:

    Look, Narcole, even IF God did give laws, those laws still needed to be, well, ratified, codified, ordered into the constitution and lawbooks of states.

    And with only the so-called divine laws, the lawbooks would be very incomplete.

    Since the so-called divine laws are immutable, they cannot be augmented, improved, but only re-interpreted. But from an immutable, vaque, obsolete and incomplete source; Quran-Hadiths-Sira.

    Don't you see the that if Divine Laws should be paramount, God is REMISS? For 1400 years already?

  59. Demsci says:

    @SlaveOfProphet.
    Strange question, snakes and humans being very different. But in the course of hundreds of millions of years the development was: Fish-Amphibies-reptiles and FROM OUT OF THEM mammals,  first small, later bigger, than, eventually, through ape-like-creatures; bipedal humanoid, millions of years ago, then our species, maybe 200.000 years ago, came into existence.

    Evolution is a wonderful, well supported theory. and you, SlaveOfProphet, I happily call an infidel (unbeliever) in respect to it.

    I hope your grandchildren will one day present themselves to you as believers in the evolution-theory.

  60. Nizamuddin Sheikh says:

    @Cchuckc

    My Dear Sister Narcole wrote "Gender? Tsk tsk. Gender means sex, sir. Why do you think god needs sex? Tsk tsk. God is independent " It means her God is Sea-cucumber. Because she has already told me when I asked to her where is the pair of sea-cucumber and that time her replied it is Independent , and right now she is saying God is independent this proved her God is Sea-cucumber. Well done my dear sister for accepting truth again.

  61. cchuckc says:

    //If you insult God, God will ask you to be responsible.//
    God will help me in course correction if it is infinitely merciful. it won't ask other humans to kill me.

    //You arent much special as damned sinner.//
    Neither are you as you follow a wretched bogus religious dogma:-)

  62. cchuckc says:

    //How could you teach English if ur not a native speaker?//
    Tch tch. You don't know about my nationality:-), neither did I say I will teach you. You are asking about basic definitions, you should look for them in dictionary. For example: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence?s

    //Why only bringing definition of 'better'?//
    Because that particular comment concerned meaning of bad, better and worse.-). Simple. Learn to live in current context.

  63. cchuckc says:

    //I dont care about your English excuse. I just want to know whether ur afraid to answer.//
    I answered. Read again. Answer my question or are you afraid to answer it properly?

  64. cchuckc says:

    //Gabriel had already existed before our prophet to other prophets. Even to jesus. Now ur insulting one more religion?//
    In your imagination. I was talking about the imaginative Gabriel Muhammad painted. I haven't shared about the Christian or Jew idea of Gabriel.

    //If ur incapable to respect diversity, there options for you. Repent, or be responsible. Insult vs threat.//
    If your idea of diversity is to kill Shia, Bahais, Hindus, Ahamadiyas then that is an insult to the idea of diversity.

  65. If you insult God, God will ask you to be responsible. You arent much special as damned sinner.

  66. How could you teach English if ur not a native speaker? Why only bringing definition of 'better' but cant give definition of prove, evidence and fact?

  67. I dont care about your English excuse. I just want to know whether ur afraid to answer.

  68. If ur incapable to respect diversity, there options for you. Repent, or be responsible. Insult vs threat. 

  69. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    // better means more good.//
    And who told you that that is the only meaning? Better also means superior in quality. If something is bad, and another thing is worse than it, then the first thing is better than the second. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worse?s=t

    //And once again you used 'prove' word without answering the prove definiton, include, evidence and fact.//
    I am not here to teach English. Consult a good dictionary or give your own definition.

    //And when did i say that you said that? Im just explaining. //
    I don't need your silly explaining. You did say that "Lol its you who cant differ which is animals brain and which is humans brain."

    //You are the damned for insulting god, mentioning others wont change that unless you repent.//
    Which God? Allah? Well He is no God. Insulting that idea isn't insulting God. And even if I insult God, It will understand. It doesn't require you to threaten or kill me because It is not that weak.

  70. Gabriel had already existed before our prophet to other prophets. Even to jesus. Now ur insulting one more religion?

  71. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Runaway from current question by asking new question.//
    You have a problem understanding answers:-). I asked you to answer my question. That will reveal you the answer. I don't subscribe to the idea of religions, which in my view, compartmentalise people into blocks.

  72. cchuckc says:

    //Who said you havent said anything against Gabriel. You just did again.//
    I said that:-). The Gabriel you are referring to is an imaginary character invented by Muhammad. So if this is insulting, you may say I am insulting Muhammad.

    //Lol against spirit of open discussion? That against the HOLY SPIRIT?//
    I told you, if you are incapable of open discussion, you should quit the forum, ignore comments etc. there are many peaceful options open to you. Killing another person for that is fundamentalism.

  73. A threat is only a threat if its prevented. if you think you could insult, then a threat is equal to that.

  74. Who said you havent said anything against Gabriel. You just did again.

  75. Lol against spirit of open discussion? That against the HOLY SPIRIT?  pfft

  76. Nizam's pattern. Runaway from current question by asking new question. Not gonna work, mr chuck 🙂  if you are afraid to answer, just tell. I might listen. 

  77. Didnt you see questions have question mark? mr chuck, better means more good. While bad is no good. And once again you used 'prove' word without answering the prove definiton, include, evidence and fact.

  78. And when did i say that you said that? Im just explaining. You're in imagination again, mr chuck?

  79. You are the damned for insulting god, mentioning others wont change that unless you repent.

  80. Supriya says:

    To cchuckc / alias
    You have good sense of humor. But how could you know the meaning of my name( if you are not an Indian) ?

  81. cchuckc says:

    @Supriya
    //But I don't get the meaning of your name. //
    It is an alias.

    //Keep it up. All the best.// Thank you. Lead a blessed life.

  82. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //That simple, the threat is for prevention and lesson//
    A threat against a personal opinion is a threat against the spirit of open discussion. If the idea is ridiculous then I see no harm in ridiculing it. That is why forums are out there. I am not going to somebody's home or holding onto somebody, tom-toming my ideas against Muhammad (Actually I haven't said anything against that fictional character you call Gabriel). You can choose to ignore or stop coming to that particular forum or debate about it. But killing people for that!! Now that is what is called fundamentalism.

  83. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //I want to know which belief, so just answer. No need to repeat pattern.//
    You answer my question. That will reveal you the answer. Why escaping that? I have answered quite a few from your side after all.

  84. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Lol so you think as a man you may insult and argue like woman on net is better? Do you think bad is better than worse?//
    And when did I say that? Inventing lies again. I said that neither of them are better than the other in discussing or debating. Off course you think otherwise, I don't blame you personally for that. And yes 'bad' is better than 'worse':-)

    //Careless about peace and harmony is definitely egoistic.// http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/egoistic?s… . You have proved how careful you are about peace and harmony:-)

  85. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Lol its you who cant differ which is animals brain and which is humans brain. //
    And when did I say that? I know you are a liar, but you don't have to prove that like this.

  86. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Your opinion about them wont make you not different than those who dont seek peace //
    But it certainly makes me different from the Sunnis who torment and persecute their own fellow muslims and don't seek peace with them.

  87. Your opinion about them wont make you not different than those who dont seek peace

  88. Lol its you who cant differ which is animals brain and which is humans brain.

  89. Lol so you think as a man you may insult and argue like woman on net is better? Do you think bad is better than worse?

  90. Careless about peace and harmony is definitely egoistic. 

  91. If you think gabriel doesnt exist, so you have a right not to believe. but you are not allowed to insult gabriel and god. Mind your own business. If you mess with islam or christian that respect gabriel as holy spirit, you have to be responsible. That simple, the threat is for prevention and lesson. No ones gonna be harmed if each choose to live in peace.

  92. I want to know which belief, so just answer. No need to repeat  pattern.

  93. cchuckc says:

    //So you're saying you want to follow shiah and ahmadiyah who dont accept peace and harmony? //
    My sympathies are everybody who are persecuted, especially in their own country. I also included Sunnis in Iraq in that list. You overlooked that since it doesn't suit your argument:-). By the way I have met many Ahamadiyas and Shias and SUnnis and the Ahamadiyas do fare better in all walks of life. A little more peaceful and law abiding than their Sunni brothers.

  94. cchuckc says:

    //Exposing how? By argueing and insult on net like woman? //
    And you were talking about etiquette!! And you think only women should argue over net? What should men do, go out and fight on the streets like you brothers from Hamas do? I am really sorry about your upbringing!!

    //Egoist god? What are you?//
    A little egoistic than that. At least I don't treat anybody like slaves, nor do I demand that kind of mentality from others. I gave you the reason why I think your Allah is egoist.

    // it seems you cant differ the status of God and the status of servant.//
    Well, I don't have to. Any benevolent God won't think of Its subjects, men and animals, as servants.

  95. cchuckc says:

    //Ur not answering my question, i asked which belief, you could answer christianity, judaism, etc.//
    It doesn't matter which belief. I don't have to follow any particular religon to have a particular view.
    And you are not answering my question, I wonder why? I have answered quite a few questions from you, now its your turn:

    Q: Tell me, is your God incapable of parental love? Can it not nourish us like our Mother and provide us the love and care of our Father?

    //Im sorry mr chuck, you're not showing etiquette nor moral, so no mercy for the damned who insult god unless he repents. //
    You have openly claimed to kill me for a particular view of a non-existing, non-verifiable entity. It doesn't look well on you to talk on etiquette and morality.

  96. Supriya, are you a man?

  97. Supriya says:

    To cchuckc
    You have correctly understood the meaning of my name. May be you are an Indian.
    But I don't get the meaning of your name.
    I come to know that the girl is pretending. She is clever and doesn't want to know the reality of her prophet.
    Let her know that her prophet's holy book has turned millions of innocents into fanatics and terrorists.
    Keep it up. All the best.

  98. Supriya says:

    You have correctly understood the meaning of my name. May be you are an Indian.
    But I don't get the meaning of your name.
    I come to know that she is pretending. She is clever and trying to misconstrue the words. Keep up to awaken the girl.
    All the best !

  99. So you're saying you want to follow shiah and ahmadiyah who dont accept peace and harmony? No difference between you and them then.

  100. Egoist god? What are you? it seems you cant differ the status of God and the status of servant.

  101. Exposing how? By argueing and insult on net like woman?

  102. Im sorry mr chuck, you're not showing etiquette nor moral, so no mercy for the damned who insult god unless he repents.

  103. Ur not answering my question, i asked which belief, you could answer christianity, judaism, etc. 

  104. Okay, 'she is misunderstood you'. wow good english. 

  105. cchuckc says:

    @Supriya,
    Your name means 'well loved' if I am not much wrong.

    //She may have low intellect to grasp your explanation.//
    I don't think so. She is a clever woman who wants to misconstrue words in a manner that suits her line of argument.

    //She is unable to understand your English and therefore she is misunderstood you. //
    It is true that her English looks weak and at times incomprehensible, but don't think she misunderstands much of what I say here.

  106. cchuckc says:

    //Im sure you have ability to write again, mr chuck.//
    I have written again. Quite a few times now.

    //by the way, the real god is different than what you define.//
    That is your opinion. I don't hope you to correct yourself, anyway.

    // So by insulting god and other gods, isnt humane.//
    God is free from any such insults. Only an egoist God would bother itself with what insults a normal man is hurling at It. By the way, critically analyzing the many attributes of a particular diety, say Allah, formulated by another human, say Muhammad, and finding the flaws in it isn't insulting It.

    //we are humans from different races, different heads, different cultures and religions. Insulting something that is different wont create harmony in diversity. If you cant accept diversity that means you dont know humans. How could you know god if you dont know humans? //
    When the religion is baying for infidel blood (Q:9:5, 9:73 etc.), or its followers are ever so eager to cause disruption in normal life like in some European and American cities or killing their fellow Muslims, say Ahamadiya in Indonesia and Pakistan, Shias in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and Sunnis in Iran, then it is difficult to justify that diversity. I am not against multi-culturalism and diversity but not at the cost of common humane values. Your religion hates other religions, their existence even. You hate polytheists and idol worshippers. You are prepared to kill me because I disagree with your concepts. You kill people who want to turn apostate. Your religion demands non muslims girls to convert on marriage but forbade your own girls to marry people of other religions!!! If you are not equal in your dispensation to infidels you should be ashamed of talking about the merits of multiculturalism and diversity.

  107. cchuckc says:

    @Narcole,
    //Nah, im not here to argue. Im just collecting information about you. 🙂 since you love to argue, it becomes easier 😉 //
    Collect what you can. I don't 'love' to argue, but I do love to expose Islamists.

  108. cchuckc says:

    //which belief that ur taking for thinking that you are god's child. //
    //I just wrote again. About your claim that god has children, or which belief that ur taking. //
    Tell me, is your God incapable of parental love? Can it not nourish us like our Mother and provide us the love and care of our Father. If yes, then you have your answer. If no, I can only pity you. If your God is insufficient in such mercies and love then He doesn't deserve to be called one. A God that asks some of its subject to kill others is devoid of such feelings.

    //Hello mr chuck? You are weak here, remember? You cant force god. Remember that you are a human, his creation. So you dont have ability to force the creator to be like what you want. //
    Hello @Narcole, if God is creator God then it has provided us brains to use it accordingly. It has provided us the ability to comprehend things, meditate about things, reason around what obviously looks bad or good. Otherwise this God will not even logical, providing useless faculties to useless human being. So, Yes, a merciful, benevolent God will be in tune with Human sense of ethics and morality.

  109. Supriya says:

    To cchuckc
    I can suggest you .You are wasting your time because this girl does not understand you. She may have low intellect to grasp your explanation. She is unable to understand your English and therefore she is misunderstood you.

  110. Nah, im not here to argue. Im just collecting information about you. 🙂 since you love to argue, it becomes easier 😉

  111. I just wrote again. About your claim that god has children, or which belief that ur taking.

  112. Still, ur exaggerating about sex until now.

  113. Mr chuck, my question wasnt about objection that you wanna be god's child. Im just wondering, which belief that ur taking for thinking that you are god's child.

  114. Hello mr chuck? You are weak here, remember? You cant force god. Remember that you are a human, his creation. So you dont have ability to force the creator to be like what you want.  

  115. Why would they threaten if nobody disturbing them? If you want peace with others, do not disturb others. Mr chuck, ur old enough to undersand this golden rule. I feel like im talking to a child.

  116. Supriya says:

    Namaste Dr. Ali Sina
    Your blog of "being spiritual" reminds me the teachings of my Guruji and spiritual master Sri Sri Ravishankar because there is lot of similarity between your thought and Sri Sri's wisdom. I want to share his wisdom about Spirituality to you and readers of this blog.
    One does not need to have a particular belief of system to be spiritual. One simply has to have the spirit of inquiry, then you are spiritual.
    You need to have bubbling enthusiasm. If you are aware of the cosmic reality ,that there is much more to be known and you know very little ,then you are treading the path of spirituality.
    If you have bubbling enthusiasm , joy and you are serving people , sharing the joy, that is part of spirituality.

    We are made up of both matter and spirit. In the sense of matter, we are carbohydrates, proteins, minerals,amino acids etc.As spirit, we are peace, love , joy, compassion, integrity, honesty, etc.
    So anything that enhances these qualities of love, joy, compassion, enthusiasm, celebration, humor, integrity, honesty, knowledge, that what spirituality is. Anything that uplifts the spirit and makes you feel that you are more than body(matter), you are connected to the whole universe, that is spirituality. Scientists today say that the whole world is one organism, one cosmic body. Realizing this on the level of experience is spirituality. And love is same ,when you feel that there is no another one, everyone is part of you. This realization of Quantum Physics in your life as a reality is spirituality. Quantum Physics says that the whole world is made up of one wave. Matter does not exist , everything is in waveform. Experiencing this is spirituality. It is possible to connect and realize that Truth in deep meditation. So meditation is part of spirituality. The same thing in action is service.So service is also part of spirituality.
    Dr. Sina you are following the right path of spirituality.
    All the Best.

  117. cchuckc says:

    //What can you do? Just answer. No need to avoid with same pattern. Simple. //
    See again, you misunderstand another common English usage of the question: "What can I do?". In your comment you pointed out an apparent pattern in my asking you to read again or learn English and I told you why I say that with example. You have a problem conprehending that?

    //You could argue non stop, so i guess its okay for you to just answer without avoiding//
    You are also arguing non stop, i can say that :-). What is your question that I haven't answered?

  118. Im sure you have ability to write again, mr chuck.  by the way, the real god is different than what you define. So by insulting god and other gods, isnt humane. we are humans from different races, different heads, different cultures and religions. Insulting something that is different wont create harmony in diversity. If you cant accept diversity that means you dont know humans. How could you know god if you dont know humans?

  119. cchuckc says:

    //I understand that you simply thinking that you want god to be like what you want. But you have to think more, that god wants you to be like what he wants.//
    A merciful intelligent God wouldn't want us to be mindless black boxes. A brain is installed on every being to critically analyze things. God has to be a product of that analytical reasoning because concept of God ca't be illogical.

    //See? Ur exaggerating sex word again. And still theres no analogy that god has children.//
    If God is merciful He won't feel threatened if I call myself God's child. He will understand. As I said remove the fear psychosis you have. And yes, you talked about sex in relation to God's potency, not me.

  120. What can you do? Just answer. No need to avoid with same pattern. Simple. You could argue non stop, so i guess its okay for you to just answer without avoiding. 

  121. cchuckc says:

    @narcole,
    //Thank you, mr chuck. But you should keep yours in your home too, then it will be fine too with us//
    Even public worship is also fine. I mean they shouldn't propagate it by means of coercion, extortion, threat etc. Nobody has a right to preach false religions and feel insulted when their lies are caught!!

  122. See? Ur exaggerating sex word again. And still theres no analogy that god has children. Arguieng mode, mr chuck.

  123. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I was talking about god as test subject. and 'that' above was a question. And you wrote you answered, when i was talking about god as test subject.
    // But what you call insult, I call critical analysis. Its not God, but your version of God that I am subjecting to tests. Once you have understood that fine distinction you will be able to discuss logically. //

    And guess what will I say? Read again. The subject of test is your particular definition of God, how you vision it operates etc. And why not? After all I have to be convinced into believing something alien. If you make a claim that so and so is God and he asks Muslims to kill infidels, but is also infinitely Merciful then I definitely have to subject this to a process of enquiry!! Human beings have a brain primarily for analysis. You can even say that is what defines a human as human

  124. //As long as they keep it to themselves, in their home, it is fine with me.//

    Thank you, mr chuck. But you should keep yours in your home too, then it will be fine too with us.

  125. Not again with that pattern, mr chuck. Just answer.

  126. I understand that you simply thinking that you want god to be like what you want. But you have to think more, that god wants you to be like what he wants.

  127. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Still ur exaggerating sex word//
    I am not. You said exactly that. When I used the word impotency, you were thinking that I was referring to God's ability to have sex!! Now, don't lie!!!

    //Once again, i didnt see my analogy. Cos i didnt write the analogy that god has children. I was asking about you. mr chuck, //
    I had already answered your question of spitting by my kid but it were you who felt it wise to talk about God's potency with reference to my usage of God's 'children'. If you were so interested in my answer you would have argued deeper on my answer itself instead of venturing on some particular words.

  128. I was talking about god as test subject. and 'that' above was a question. And you wrote you answered, when i was talking about god as test subject. 
    // But what you call insult, I call critical analysis. Its not God, but your version of God that I am subjecting to tests. Once you have understood that fine distinction you will be able to discuss logically. //

  129. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I also noticed this pattern mr chuck. just answer, no need to avoid by saying read again, learn english etc. //
    What can I do? Your basic comprehension skills come out so hollow, even comical? When you repeatedly show your ineptitude in understanding common English usages like 'barking' etc, I have to assume that you either know less or haven't read properly. So I ask you to read again or learn English since we communicate in English here.

  130. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Any evidence? What is evidence, mr chuck? Same fact? What is fact, mr chuck? //
    Look up the dictionary or define yourself.

    //Pork? Who was talking about pork? i was asking whether you insult god infront of muslims in real life, like you do here. //
    Your question was: But you never insult islam in front of the few? And my response was that it will depend on what the Muslims would consider insulting Islam. You have an issue in comprehending such simple sentences in English. Now you are asking whether I would insult God in front of Muslims and my answer is Yes, I will, if they try to propagate their concept of God. As long as they keep it to themselves, in their home, it is fine with me.

  131. I also noticed this pattern mr chuck. just answer, no need to avoid by saying read again, learn english etc. 

  132. Still ur exaggerating sex word and thinking about it more. Once again, i didnt see my analogy. Cos i didnt write the analogy that god has children. I was asking about you. mr chuck, ur argueing mode is still on 🙂

  133. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Im sorry, there is no god like that. If you want to be forgiven, repentance is the only way. //
    I am sorry but your Islamic concept of God is just too nascent and naive to understand that. A Real God, if believed to be infinitely just and infinitely benevolent, will be just like that and much more. If your understanding of God is different then it simply undermines one of these qualities. As simple as that.

  134. Pork? Who was talking about pork? i was asking whether you insult god infront of muslims in real life, like you do here. Im not interested to ask whether you eat pork on internet.

  135. Any evidence? What is evidence, mr chuck? Same fact? What is fact, mr chuck?

  136. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //That was the question. But you answered the question about god as test subject.//
    What is 'That'? Just write the question again.

    Your original question was:
    Q: If your kid spits in your face, is it okay?
    A: ts Okay, if I have done something that deserves spitting 🙂 . It is also okay if I haven't taught them properly about the inappropriateness of spitting on somebody's face. What isn't okay is if I ask others to come and kill my kid for spitting on me. If at all it deserves of some punishment I will deliver it myself with the intent of correcting the child's behaviour, that is called reformation not punishment.

  137. Im sorry, there is no god like that. If you want to be forgiven, repentance is the only way.

  138. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //You cant even help yourself, how could you help others? Anyway i was asking about your claim that god has children. you cant explain it. Your new theory//
    I have explained my position, you can't read properly. What can I do? Seek help from your Allah in understanding English properly. A Muslim typically has slave mentality, most others will have no problem in accepting God as a father figure, friend, philosopher and guide. You fear God while an infinitely benevolent God is not an object to fear from.

  139. That was the question. But you answered the question about god as test subject.  

  140. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Still i didnt see any english words that written that i wrote analogy. I was asking about you. Anyway, i didnt think that you would think about sex that far. Since its you keep mentioning and exaggerating, so i guess i know what u were thinking. //
    Anybody can read the comment from you where you thought that I was thinking about your God having sex in the event of my talking about his potency in having children. As far as 'analogy' is concerned, you asked me the question about me and my kid in the context of your accusing us of insulting your God.

  141. You cant even help yourself, how could you help others? Anyway i was asking about your claim that god has children. you cant explain it. Your new theory.

  142. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Why me, why not you who give common definition of 'prove'? i noticed you always avoid this//
    Because it is you who is doubting the definition of 'proof', not me. I have long back told you what I consider proof. Any evidence that has probative weight, that is you can probe as much further as you want to and end up with the same fact/conclusion. You only have to look back into some of my responses to your comments. So if that isn't acceptable to you, then you should define it yourself.

    //There arent many muslims there. But you never insult islam in front of the few?//
    That depends a lot on what you or they consider insult. I don't hold them by collar, or hit them or spit on their face. But that doesn't mean that I will stop eating pork in front of them, for example.

  143. Still i didnt see any english words that written that i wrote analogy. I was asking about you.  Anyway, i didnt think that you would think about sex that far. Since its you keep mentioning and exaggerating, so i guess i know what u were thinking.

  144. There arent many muslims there. But you never insult islam in front of the few? 

  145. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //You are insulting God.//
    And why should pointing out the gross injustice incorporated within your definition of God be counted as insulting God?

    //And you are making other definition of real god. Great, double sins to be responsible of.//
    Don't worry, the Real Infinitely Merciful God, if you are sure there is one, will forgive me for that and also help me in realizing that.

  146. Why me, why not you who give common definition of 'prove'? i noticed you always avoid this.  

  147. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Such belief? That god has children? Which belief that god has children?//
    I have explained, if you don't understand I can't help.

    //I believe ur not christian//
    You are free to believe whatever you want to about my beliefs. I won't kill you for that.

    //Please answer the question, not answer your imagination//
    Which question? Come again. Your question was about my kid spitting on my face and my reaction to it. I have answered that.

  148. You are insulting God. And you are making other definition of real god. Great, double sins to be responsible of.

  149. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //When did i write 'analogy' as mine? Argueing mode again, mr chuck?//
    I think you should learn English first. You asked me a question in the context of my apparently ustifying insulting God.

    //Hm? Think of sex in what concept?//
    You tell us, you thought by talking about potency I am talking about God's ability of having sex. I can't hep if your mind is so sex-infested!!

    //What are you thinking? Are you thinking im thinking what ur thinking?//
    I know what I am thinking and I know you don't have much control over what you think.

  150. Please answer the question, not answer your imagination.

  151. Such belief? That god has children? Which belief that god has children? I believe ur not christian, cos christians also do respect gabriel and god.

  152. Hm? Think of sex in what concept? What are you thinking? Are you thinking im thinking what ur thinking?  once again, you should rest. 

  153. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Insulting god isnt inhumane? Well mr chuck, again, you're in your imagination again in making definitions. Are you sure ur here representing common people?//
    Criticizing any particular definition of God isn't inhumane. What is inhumane in saying that your definition is wrong? And why should I be killed for saying that? I asked you a question long back and I repeat, do you think Muslims should be killed by infidels because their understanding of God is different from Muslim's?

  154. When did i say that you wrote god doesnt breed.  ur feeling offended? I was only reminding.

  155. cchuckc says:

    //Depends on common definition of 'prove' mr chuck.//
    I think there is a pretty common understanding of what a proof is. If you want to put forth your very own definition, go ahead.

    //By the way, did you ever insult islam infront of muslims in real life?//
    There aren't many muslims around where I live. However what if I criticize the Theology or Philosophy of Islam in front of muslims? What do you think ought to happen to me?

  156. When did i write 'analogy' as mine? Argueing mode again, mr chuck?

  157. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //God's children again? Hello? You are a human.//
    Analogy was yours, not mine.

    //God doesnt breed.//
    When did I say that? But if He is the Creator God, then all beings including animals are His Children. Only a single track mind like yours fail to catch this fine point and think of sex:-)

    //Are you saying you believe that you are god's child?//
    I have no objection to such a belief, if a Creator God is assumed.

    //I wasnt discussing about god as test subject. Im talking about real god that you insult.//
    Well, you asked me a question I answered. It was in the context of your believing that I was insulting your God or Gabriel.

  158. Insulting god isnt inhumane? Well mr chuck, again, you're in your imagination again in making definitions.  Are you sure ur here representing common people? 

  159. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Is insulting god humane? Rest mr chuck.//
    Criticizing a wrong definition of God is quite humane:-). And even insulting God isn't particularly inhumane. 'Humane' relates with human being you see!!

  160. Barking? How barking sounds like?

  161. God's children again? Hello? You are a human. God doesnt breed. Are you saying you believe that you are god's child? 

  162. I wasnt discussing about god as test subject. Im talking about real god that you insult. 

  163. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //How? How old are you that makes you unaware how? Tell me. //
    Instead of barking at me, just go ahead and tell me how I am disturbing Islam?

  164. Depends on common definition of 'prove' mr chuck. 

  165. Again, you're in your imagination about 'prove' definition mr chuck. by the way, did you ever insult islam infront of muslims in real life? 

  166. Is insulting god humane? Rest mr chuck.

  167. cchuckc says:

    //I was asking your kid and you as question for understanding your way of thinking. So wheres the analogy that god is impotent? //
    the analogy was me and my kid vis a vis god and His creation, spitting at my face vis a vis insulting God :-). I said that, my kid spitting me would be analogous to God's children insulting Him. If you can't consider yourself God's children but restrict him to only servants and enemies I pity your 7th century slave mentality. Its not a problem of my scrutinizing the analogy closely. If you only relate potency with having sex then also it is your crude mentality that is on display. By the way, you don't have anything to say about the meat of my answer to your question.

  168. cchuckc says:

    //You are responsible for what you say, in God's way. So im not saying about me, im saying that You should be responsible toward ur insults to God.//
    But what you call insult, I call critical analysis. Its not God, but your version of God that I am subjecting to tests. Once you have understood that fine distinction you will be able to discuss logically.

  169. cchuckc says:

    Compile it properly. Intead of throwing garbage!!

  170. How? How old are you that makes you unaware how? Tell me. 

  171. You are responsible for what you say, in God's way. So im not saying about me, im saying that You should be responsible toward ur insults to God.

  172. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Didnt i write 'if'? //
    I quoted you in full. If I try to prove that Gabriel is nothing more than Muhammad's imagination and a hoax then that you will consider that an insult to Muhammad and Gabrial. I said as much 🙂

  173. I was asking your kid and you as question for understanding your way of thinking. So wheres the analogy that god is impotent? I told you mr chuck, rest.

  174. You are in your imagination for making definitions mr chuck, im sorry i cant follow your imagination.  You deny what you do and say by creating new definitions in your imagination which common people not admit.  So its almost like autism. 

  175. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //While for persons like you, any muslims are given chance to prove obedience and respect toward God //
    How foolish!! And how inhumane!! Islam is rightly called 'I Slam'. No wonder we don't see any Muslim winning a debate on Theology, Philosophy or the like.

    //Im sorry mr chuck, you are only being weak for being able to insult while hiding only.//
    I am sorry, @Narcole, but you have proven yourself to be a barbaric brute :-). By the way, since this forum is on the internet, i can only comment on the internet. No?

  176. Didnt i write 'if'? 

  177. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //You are disturbing islam. You dont seek peace. many other infidels still in peace with islam, so islam has no right to disturb them. But to those who disturb islam, islam has right to ask for their responsibility. //
    How am I disturbing Islam? By telling people how bad it really is? Islam can remain where it is, ie in the Dar-ul Harb.

  178. Im sorry mr chuck, you are only being weak for being able to insult while hiding only. he will send jesus to kill dajjal, cos hes a tough rival. While for persons like you, any muslims are given chance to prove obedience and respect toward God

  179. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Impotent? You're thinking god has sex? //
    No, but may be you are. There is no need to associate ability to have sex with potency. Only a person with a narrow mind does that. I have already explained why I used the word children in relation to the analogy of me and my kid.

    //God also disagrees with your version.//
    Even if He does, I won't hold that God liable for His disagreement:-) As I said, I am responsible for what I say, not what YOU understand!!

  180. Im sure he didnt bring the words 'beg, borrow or steal whatever '. Its you, so bring the arabic words.

  181. You are disturbing islam. You dont seek peace. many other infidels still in peace with islam, so islam has no right to disturb them. But to those who disturb islam, islam has right to ask for their responsibility.

  182. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Im not asking whether you fear death or not. Im just reminding. And if you dislike it, then dont just sit and insult. //
    Oh, you mean I should run and insult? By the way showing you the correct picture of Islam, exposing its untruths and the its overwhelmingly inhumane Theology isn't an 'insult'. In fact consider it a mercy. If I am wrong, then you win and your belief in Islam becomes Muqammal, and if you are wrong then you get a course-correction. Either way you benefit!! Think positively.

  183. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //If you insult gabriel infront of me, at first i will tell you, and then i will remind you, and if you still disrespect, then i will have to obey god by punishing you for justice and lesson. //
    Thats a round-about way of saying that If your lies are caught or you are defeated in logic and comprehension then you will kill me. Well done, I expected as much.

  184. God also disagrees with your version.

  185. Impotent? You're thinking god has sex? Mr chuck, you need rest.

  186. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Hes okay with you insulting him?//
    Are you asking me or telling me?

    //Hes sending me to warn you. Me, muslim. Okay? //
    Such weak agents from the syndicate. You are making Allah a laughing stock now!! At least ask Him to send somebody better equipped in education, logic and language!!!

  187. Im not asking whether you fear death or not. Im just reminding. And if you dislike it, then dont just sit and insult.

  188. If you insult gabriel infront of me, at first i will tell you, and then i will remind you, and if you still disrespect, then i will have to obey god by punishing you for justice and lesson.

  189. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I didnt find the arabic text for beg, borrow or steal whatever that u meant, mr chuck. If you dont know what sop talking about, you have a right not to speak for something you know less.//
    I know what SOP is talking about. Read his comment again, and if you still don't understand read it again. Self help is the best help. And if you still don't understand ask him.

  190. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //There are infidels who respect islam and dont disturb islam. There are infidels who hurt islam and muslims.//
    I am not disturbing Islam either. I am asking Islam not to disturb us infidels:-). By the way if somebody is infidel, by definition, he has rejected the idea of Islam being the true deen and Muhammad being the final messenger of Allah.

  191. Hes okay with you insulting him? Hes sending me to warn you. Me, muslim. Okay?

  192. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //i said impossible to kill old man who has guts to insult on net only, first cos, hes hiding, second cos, he shows his weakness by only able to insult from internet//
    So you don't deny that you have every intention to kill him, right? If it is impossible to kill him because he is hiding, as you say, it proves the incompetence of your God. Ask your God, He should tell you. Second, how do you know whether that person only 'insults' on the internet? That is only an assumption. Third, If he is wrong prove him wrong with logic, not by death threats. Fourth, self preservation has nothing to do with having guts. Fifth, leave it, you can't fathom so much in one go.

  193. There are infidels who respect islam and dont disturb islam. There are infidels who hurt islam and muslims. mr chuck, please take rest. 

  194. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //God has no children, mr chuck. God has servants, lovers and enemies.//
    So now you are saying that your God is impotent?
    You used the example of me and my kid. The 'children' part came because of that.

    //Please if you declare that you are against god by insulting him, be responsible.//
    I disagree with your definition or vision of God. Since it is not God, at least not as per me, so insulting that definition isn't insulting God. I am responsible for what I say, not what you understand (or don't)!!

  195. I didnt find the arabic text for beg, borrow or steal whatever that u meant, mr chuck. If you dont know what sop talking about, you have a right not to speak for something you know less.

  196. Mr chuck, i notice u often wrote 'that prove' so many times in your imagination.  i said impossible to kill old man who has guts to insult on net only, first cos, hes hiding, second cos, he shows his weakness by only able to insult from internet. 

  197. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Keep insulting mr chuck, ull meet izrail anyway. he has no mercy toward the damned. neither malaikat azab.//
    And before that if you meet me you will murder me, right? By the way, do you know izrail has not mention in Quran ? And i need no Auran to know that we are all going to die one day. It fears me not:-)

  198. God has no children, mr chuck. God has servants, lovers and enemies. And to teach the damned enemies properly, is by giving azab punishment lesson. Please if you declare that you are against god by insulting him,  be responsible.

  199. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //My god is able to kill you anytime.//
    Yet, he doesn't, that proves his mercy, fine. But that also proves that He is OK with my saying what I am saying. Or do you understand your God better than Him?

    //if god showed you his punishment now, you would say hes merciless//
    Yes. And the fact he is not showing this 'punishment proves Him being OK with it.

    //and if hes showing his mercy to you to speak until now, ur saying hes weak.//
    Aha, the liar speaks again. I said He is weak if He requires Muslims to delivers His punishment.

    //The point is, you have a problem with argueing mr chuck.//
    The point is you are arguing on a topic you are yet to have grip on. Go, play.

  200. Keep insulting mr chuck, ull meet izrail anyway. he has no mercy toward the damned. neither malaikat azab.

  201. My god is able to kill you anytime. but hes very merciful to you until now. Still allowing you to read with eyes, and write with hands. I guess you are only here for insulting and arguieng. Cos if god showed you his punishment now, you would say hes merciless, and if hes showing his mercy to you to speak until now, ur saying hes weak. The point is, you have a problem with argueing mr chuck.

  202. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Hm? I was talking about insulter. absolutely not innocent.//
    Don't skip the poser. Infidel => not believer => Could be polytheist or idol worshipper => Insult to Allah => Not innocent. Easy peasy.

  203. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //But the other purpose of punishing in dunia is as lesson or reminder for others, so that wont follow the sinner and regret. //
    In other words stiffle the voice of dissent. That is what a tyranny does. Play on the fear psychosis :-). Win over others, not by piety but by cruelty. Just as Muhammad did. Bravo!! Way to go!! Your true colours are showing @Narcole.

  204. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Cos we are humans as khalifah on earth. We have aqal to differ which is good and which is evil. We fight god's enemies that insult god, for justice.//
    But then that proves that your God is poor and weak. It has to depend on human agency for delivering punishment. It also means that it is not infinitely merciful. And hence it is a false God. So if you worship a false God then according to your own theory of delivery of justice, all the muslims must be killed, their property annexed etc.

  205. Ofcourse in akhirat he will be Malik of yaum ad diin. cos the sinner must be responsible of his actions. But the  other purpose of punishing in dunia is as lesson or reminder for others, so that wont follow the sinner and regret.

  206. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Lol so your god doesnt have hell? //
    Well, no infinitely merciful God will require a permanent hell, at least not for eternal damnation :-). Promising, isn't it.

  207. Cos we are humans as khalifah on earth. We have aqal to differ which is good and which is evil.  We fight god's enemies that insult god, for justice.  not just sitting watching and let innocent and zhalim mix. As god created heaven for the innocents, and hell for the damned. 

  208. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //So you know less? //
    So you know less than him as per him. And he has already made it clear in that comment.

  209. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    // i remind as jihad 🙂 impossible to kill hiding old man who only has guts to insult on net only. .//
    You said impossible. That proves that it is not God's mechanism to punish infidels through the agency of Jihad propagandists like you. Must be a different system.

  210. Lol so your god doesnt have hell? Pfft

  211. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //So you admit that you could havent taught your kid properly. And you admit that you could have done something that deserves spitting.//
    I said, 'IF…' 🙂 You are comparing this with insulting God. So co-relating with my response, if God's children are spitting on His face then it is possible that He didn't teach them properly. You cleverly hide that I told you that I won't ask the child's peers to come and kill him for that. You also try to hide that I said taht in the extreme case if I have to punish the child it won't be killing but reforming.

  212. *pokes* i remind as jihad 🙂 impossible to kill hiding old man who only has guts to insult on net only.  

  213. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //When an old man doing crime, did the king punish the old man himself? Why should he? Its not his rival to face directly at all.//
    A King will have a well instituted mechanism or delivering justice. The Judgement can't be taken by his subjects. Your example proves the same. You may say that finally the execution is done by one of his subjects but it COMES AFTER THE JUDGEMENT BY THE KING himself. Drill it down through your fat skull.

  214. So you admit that you could havent taught your kid properly. And you admit that you could have done something that deserves spitting. 

  215. cchuckc says:

    //Of course God has a RIGHT to threaten or warn.//
    But it is you a Muslim who is threatening the infidel, not God. I can understand if you say Global Warming or Ozone Layer depletion is God's way of warning. that will look stylish, but putting people to sword by a swarming army of Muslims? Nah, it just lacks the class!!

  216. cchuckc says:

    //Lol toward the damned…like you? You want mercy from god? Why dont you beg? Maybe he'll forgive.//
    Well I showed you the definition of mercy. If I am a sinner and God is infinitely merciful and he indeed is some kind of judge, then rest assured he will forgive me. While you lack that confidence, I don't.

  217. cchuckc says:

    //Im not the one who insults//
    Off course not, you kill 🙂

  218. cchuckc says:

    //beg, borrow or steal whatever? Which the arabic text? //
    Ask @slaveofprophet. He calims to know Islam better than you. I merely quoted him:-)

  219. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //If your kid spits in your face, is it okay? //
    Its Okay, if I have done something that deserves spitting:-). It is also okay if I haven't taught them properly about the inappropriateness of spitting on somebody's face. What isn't okay is if I ask others to come and kill my kid for spitting on me. If at all it deserves of some punishment I will deliver it myself with the intent of correcting the child's behaviour, that is called reformation not punishment.

  220. *mr chuck argueing mode on*

  221. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Evolution is imagination for wishing to be something more than already given. that humans limited with weakness.//
    No. Evolution is an explanation for the diversity we see around us. Evolutionary science isn't confined to humans only so your suspicion has no grounds at all. Genetic selection is very much of a fact and reproducible in laboratories.
    And it is not just about intelligence, but about developing features that best suit the environ within which the being is dwelling.

  222. Hm? I was talking about insulter. absolutely not innocent.

  223. And whos the king/lord/leader of your place. When an old man doing crime, did the king punish the old man himself? Why should he? Its not his rival to face directly at all.  

  224. Of course God has a RIGHT to threaten or warn. What do you think god is? He's just. Hello? *knock-knock*

  225. Lol toward the damned…like you? You want mercy from god? Why dont you beg? Maybe he'll  forgive.

  226. beg, borrow or steal whatever? Which the arabic text?

  227. If your kid spits in your face, is it okay? 

  228. cchuckc says:

    //It is not good to kill innocent humans. But it is right, to kill those who insult god,the greatest king.//
    In Islamic Theology infidels are never innocent. Can you counter that?

  229. cchuckc says:

    //If you dont wanna be killed by the king's army, then behave. learn etiquette.//
    Thats an open threat. Nobody appointed Muslim's in the King's army. And what kind of King is that who has to recruit from ordinary feeble human? If it can't trust his own mechanisms, hellfires etc, does he even deserve to be called a King? If he himself seals the heart of his subjects, the very fellows against whom his army is planning to march, then he is a good for nothing God. End result, you are espousing a false God.

  230. cchuckc says:

    //God as the Greatest King is the Most Merciful toward his servants, but toward the Damned, he gives severe punishment.//
    Thats your foolish islamic theology speaking. Being 'merciful' to servants counts for nothing. That ability can be matched by anybody even by microbes. That is called patronizing, even symbiotic. Look in this link for the proper meaning of mercy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercy?s=t

    It is exactly toward the damned that the quality of mercy should be forwarded by the 'King'. After all this King isn't just meciful, but infinitely so!!

  231. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Well done mr chuck, keep insulting. Dont do da'wah from your god. He makes you as the weak insulter only. Unable to do something else, like at least introducing the real god//
    I praised @slave's understanding of Quran. Those verses (Q9:5) are saying exactly as @Slave says. the Oft-forgiving, most Merciful Allah is asking Muslims to beg, borrow or steal whatever they can from the infidels and sieze, subjugated and kill them.

  232. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //God almighty isnt going to be affected by insults. But god's anger. Know that God is nice if you behave, and god is almighty with severe punishment when hes angry.//
    How comical!! If He is not affected, how does he become angry? :-). If human beings can play with his psyche like this, then thats a pity!!

  233. God almighty isnt going to be affected by insults. But god's anger. Know that God is nice if you behave, and god is almighty with severe punishment when hes angry. what makes you think god wont be mad? he gives you life and rizq, but you misused it. You insulted him instead. he has been very patient seeing your attitudes. but still you're UNGRATEFUL. 

  234. There no bad parts of real god's religion. And one thing is obvious, no real God allows his creations to insult the real god nor other gods. cos if you insult someones parents, he will insult your own parents. but demsci, i think i understand why u insult god, cos u insult your parents already too. but know that most humans respect parents, also respect god. in a family where the parents hit their children, makes the children think its okay to hit others too, cos the parents taught them so.

  235. Demsci says:

    //" so behave"//

    God almighty is not going to be affected or offended by insults. What is truly sinful is to shorten people's life, except for murder.

    Insults can have the effect of exposing truly evil or stupid human actions, enabling mankind to rectify and progress.

    By choosing to forbid insults you also choose to condone and ignore truly evil or stupid human actions and you also choose to stifle rectification and progress.

  236. Demsci says:

    //"My suggestion to you now is that you should KNOW your STATUS. Look at yourself NOW. You are a HUMAN."//

    Will do. But know that we do not recognize the authority that you give to Islamic teachings on which you base yourself. They are not proven to have come from God.

    The bad parts of Islam should be and is replaced by better alternative laws, morals, values, tenets.
    The good parts of Islam Muslims can keep and cherish, but they should not restrict themselves to them but expand, augment them with much of what mankind has to offer outside Islam. And they should not try to restrict their teachings to their children to Islam.

  237. Demsci says:

    //"I dedicate my life for education, learning and teaching"//
    Sounds great, me too. Dedication is about the future, in a hopefully long life.
    Are you studying Islam in depth? When will you be finished? What will you do then? Study, learn, teach outside Islam? If you do, will you let some education, learning and teaching contradict or trump Islam's tenets and promises (which may be false, a bad gamble!)?

    Or will you always in your intelligent, serious long life let yourself be restricted by the shackles of Islam's halal and haram laws, morals, tenets?

    Will you restrict  to Islam your teachings to the next generation? Pretending there is nothing better than Islam? At this time, with gigabytes of knowledge at your fingertips?

    People like us may look like wanting to drag Islam down only, but really it is part of Islamic teachings that is keeping Muslims from higher levels in spiritual, intellectual ways.

    And maybe even you, with your PRO-first attitude, do not like the many things Islam declares itself CONTRA, declaring so much HARAM.

  238. Demsci says:

    I like (us) to try to understand you, Narcole. Which is not the same as agreeing with you off course.

    You DO have a well-defined religion, you invest much in it, you follow revered wise sheikhs. This is what you are PRO. What you defend tooth and nail here and also do DAWA for. You seem only or primarily CONTRA laws, morals, values, actions, developments if they are contradicting what you are PRO.

    Me, I also try to be primarily PRO something. I too hope that that what I am PRO will spread successfully across the world. Perhaps we have the same PRO-first-approach.

    But in my experience most people find it easier find, see, know, talk about what they are CONTRA, to have the CONTRA-first-approach. And I don't know and say that that is wrong. It's just the predominant approach it seems. Perhaps the best approach is a combination of knowing what one or one's group is PRO and CONTRA.

  239. I dedicate my life for education, learning and teaching, for god's ridha.  

  240. Sakat says:

    @narcole
    Baby are you sane ,what is your educational qualification ,i mean what is your profession (i genuinely interested to know what exactly you are doing apart from promoting Islam).

  241. lonelyloner says:

    I myself keep having second thoughts about what makes a good government system: is it democracy, or not democracy? This is just one example: why do they even feel the need to buy votes from muslims anyway?
    Such is flaw of democracy: that sometimes bad and stupid things happen, just because majority favors it, and to get majority vote, people then have to compromise their principles and allow stupid things to happen.
    For example again: let's say a government of 10 people, 1 person who is an extremely learned man have made careful study about unsustainability of a resource and strongly advise seeking alternative because to continue present course would lead to short term gain but ruin in the end. But the other 9 members can't see it, or refuse to see it because they're not willing to sacrifice their current comforts. So 9/10 the government is now set on a stupid course. Worse? That 1 person who disagree now will have to be dragged along too, since 'majority has decided'.
    In my opinion, what matters most is telling the truth. Both democratic and non democratic regimes can often resort to lying to their own people, and keeping their own people ignorant and stupid, and this is how all systems crash and burn.

  242. My suggestion to you now is that you should KNOW your STATUS. Look at yourself NOW. You are a HUMAN. You Are not an animal, nor angel nor god. You are a Human, God's CREATION, God's SERVANT. and your GOD is your CREATOR, your KING. so behave.

  243. Keep laughing mr sakat. Its healthy. Healthier than yoga, which you cant promote to other infidels.

  244. Well done mr chuck, keep insulting. Dont do da'wah from your god. He makes you as the weak insulter only. Unable to do something else, like at least introducing the real god. 

  245. God as the Greatest King is the Most Merciful toward his servants, but toward the Damned, he gives severe punishment. One of His Mercy is, He gives you democracy with responsibility and TIME. But if you choose to be the Damned, be responsible of your choice with limited time. So choose,  use your time well and behave,  or be the damned.

  246. If you dont wanna be killed by the king's army, then behave. learn etiquette. if you dont hve etiquette at home, doesnt mean you may not have it outside. This is not your world alone. It is not you who created. So behave in front of the creator.

  247. It is not good to kill innocent humans. But it is right, to kill those who insult god,the greatest king. 

  248. Think, evils strategy to destroy real religion is by making wrong religions unite to destroy the real religion. Once its destroyed, wrong religions wouldnt be better than each other, cos they arent real religion. Thats why it doesnt matter to you to promote your religions, cos they are all same. Not from same god. How could your different gods being allies? if you think one of your god is right, then why would your god want to be allied with other infidels gods? Answer is, cos your gods are friends. They are united as army of iblis. Real god will never wanna be allied with other gods from other religions. *knock-knock*

  249. Im glad not many people believe in darwinism anymore.  Evolution is imagination for wishing to be something more than already given. that humans limited with weakness. So by believing low intelligent animals could become higher intelligent animals, makes them think humans could become angels then gods. funny.

  250. I apreciate your niyyat too, but please dont be takabur. 

  251. cchuckc says:

    @Slaveofprophet,
    //Sister, please you do not waste your precious time in debating with these non-believers. I will manage them single handily . //
    Shouldn't you also remind her that since women are half as intelligent as men and a lot more sinful (Muhammad 'saw' hell full of women) than men, so you are better qualified than her in Islamic matters? I see you have already casted aspersions regarding her knowledge. Good thing that, very Islamic you know?

  252. cchuckc says:

    @Demsci,
    Very well put. Thoughtful and sincere. Much appreciated.

  253. cchuckc says:

    @ Sakat,
    Not only @Narcole, every 'true' Muslim avoids evolution. In fact, I think in Pakistan they have expunged evolution from the science school textbooks!!! The hostility to evolution among the Muslims is because it undermines the fiction that Adam, the first man, was born as is that is the first human being couldn't possibly have evolved out of some other, even if similar, organism. For them human were always like this, the giant strides that civilizations have made out of this very mechanism of evolution, doesn't exist.

  254. Demsci says:

    //"My intention here isnt to argue. But to remind or sharing. not to insult and not to force"//
    Narcole, good intention you formulate there.

    I know how to value your contributions here, in that you at the very least keep the conversation going.About profoundly important things IMO.

    At the cost of, well, at times, or often, or almost all the time, countless times, painful confrontations, hurting your feelings.

    Furthermore I realise that SlaveofProphet is of the same "religion", "organisation", as you are, and perhaps some Islamic "rules" must be obeyed by you, as you have have subordinated yourself to the same religion as Slaveofprophet.

    But IMO he is not better than you, rather you are more modern and flexible than he (although not much).

    And I think you should continue to play some useful role, for enhancing mankind. Which SlaveofProphet also, but NOT exclusively, without you, should try to do.

    But I am happy that he does not openly say that a man is better than a woman, at least.

  255. Demsci says:

    Narcole, I say to you there is much to promote among the beliefs of 5,43 million infidels that is better on many criteria than Islam, or parts of it.

    And I say that parts of Muslim often insult and disrespect/ maltreat those other "religions"/ or "lifestyles"/ or moral values. to which they are the unbelievers!!! And that they do it inspired by Islam in many instances.

    You yourself are an unbeliever to the IMO beautiful and (as Chuck said) well founded theories of the history of the world and mankind.

    As you are, in part, at times, a profound unbeliever in modern moral values. As Chuck pointed out, you consider it good to physically kill and harm people for mere words they utter.

    It is in a way YOU who wants to drag other humans (not all I admit) to YOUR LEVEL. 

  256. Demsci says:

    //"Oh oh, you cant promote ur religion. only able to insult other religion?"//
    interesting choice of words. As you phrase it, Narcole, you "paint the picture" as if you here defend a, say, admirable, "high" religion, Islam.

    And that Chuck (and other non-Muslims) have "no worthwhile religion", certainly not a religion that is as "high as Islam". And all Chuck & infidels can do is to drag Islam down to their own low level.

    Well said for propagandistic reasons to put Islam in a favorable position and "infidels" in a bad position. SlaveofProphet should commend you for this.

    Off course, a big part of the infidels already did show good to excellent alternatives to Islam, better than Islam in many parts and in totality of religion or lifestyle.

    What people like Chuck do is point out the faults, shortcomings, contradictions, inconsistencies, untruths,  bad consequences etc of Islam.
    They think mankind (or much of it) is better off FREE FROM Islam.

    And I like to augment this position by pointing out that mankind (or much of it) is already FREE TO find better alternatives to Islam. Alternatives which can, if need be, described extensively.

    The difference between being  free FROM (painful, nasty things of all sorts) and free  TO (do and experience and possess blissful things of all sorts) was explained by the philosopher Isaiah Berlin (among many others, including Esther and Jerry Hicks nowadays).

  257. Sakat says:

    @Slaveofprophet
    I love your comments man ,it gives me laughing exercise thoroughly,otherwise it is very difficult for me to do that exercise in Yoga ha ha ha……

  258. cchuckc says:

    Well done @slaveofprophet. You rock!!!

  259. Slaveofprophet says:

    @Saket
    Have you gone in Madrassa ever? We should not opine in the matters we do not know much. I myself did my education in Madrassa 5 years. They are great educational institute. Unfortunately, In India government does not pay much attention to Madrassa. I always believe if world has to create scientists education of Quran must be compulsory in all educational institutes. World greatest Saint, Scientist, Philosopher, politician Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) got such a ability because of Quran.

  260. Slaveofprophet says:

    @Narcole
    Sister, please you do not waste your precious time in debating with these non-believers. I will manage them single handily . You need to learn many things before jumping into debate with these non-believers. Although I appreciate of your dare but only dare is not enough. I advise you to visit islamreligion.com website which will enhance your knowledge.  As per Hadith  Allah gives the one Muslim  strength of thirty non-muslims. I am enough for them.

  261. Sakat says:

    @ Chuck
    It seems this narcole is a madrassa educated lady .Barring ,circumscribing of Islam (Mohammed,Allah ,Quran),she don't know much of her surroundings ,poor girl ,i really pity on her (that sheik is taking undue advantage of her innocence and mental condition to his advantages).

  262. slaveofprophet says:

    @Chucks
    Allah is most merciful as per this divine verse
    Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 9 Surah Taubah verse 5: But when the forbidden months are past then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

  263. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet //Q:9:73//
    Yet another proof that your Allah is a merciless entity.

  264. Your hands have problem writing? Write.

  265. Yes, what? You're childish?

  266. So far your imagination?

  267. Is that all you can say?

  268. slaveofprophet says:

    @chuckc
    As sword of laws always dangles before thief, rapist, mass-murderers same as Sword of true religion (Islam ) always dangles before false religions (Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism). Muslim are on the path of Allah and following Almighty Allah commands
    Allah says in Divine verse
    9: 73. O Prophet (Muhammad )! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, – and worst indeed is that destination.

  269. cchuckc says:

    //Of course you dont have to do da'wah for your religion//
    My God isn't that weak. Simple. Isn't it?

  270. cchuckc says:

    //Liar liar, poor girl? Is this your best?//
    So far you have only been caught lying:-)

    // So childish//
    Yes, lying is so childish.

    //Everybody who?//
    You also have a problem reading? Read again.

  271. Liar liar, poor girl? Is this your best? So childish. 

  272. Of course you dont have to do da'wah for your religion. You have nothing for da'wah. 

  273. cchuckc says:

    //You didnt? You lied. //
    Everybody who followed this conversation saw that.Liar liar, poor girl.

  274. You didnt? You lied.

  275. cchuckc says:

    //just laugh here watching you always hiding your religion//
    :-). I don't have to do Dawah. You can assume anything and everything. You may as well assume that I follow no religion 🙂 None of that will help Islam and the canine culture it promotes.

  276. Il just laugh here watching you always hiding your religion. 

  277. Why..mr chuck..why r you hiding? Too shy to promote, oh nvm. You dont have to promote your religion. Thats okay. I know why 🙂 

  278. cchuckc says:

    //How could you insult here and there, and expect people will believe you.//
    I didn't insult anybody. I called a spade a spade, a liar a liar and a thug a thug. And I just didn't make empty claims, I brough in evidences, your comments, your Sunnah and your Quran to prove it. You can't appeal to morality when you are yourself wishing deaths for non believers!!

  279. Mr chuck, as the oldest person you should be good model. How could you insult here and there, and expect people will believe you. Insulting is only for weak person.

  280. cchuckc says:

    //Oh oh, you cant promote ur religion. only able to insult other religion//
    I don't HAVE TO promote my religion. Islam is a fanatic cult, we saw enough example of it from your comments. Just a few comments back you asked anybody criticizing your Malaikat Gabriel to be killed. @Slaveofprophet, was dangling the sword of Q9:5 and Q9:29 on us in the follow through. So it must be subdued in a humane manner, debating, discussing and exposing it is one such way.

    //And as long as you do that its you who will always lie.//
    I have exposed your lies many times. And will keep on doing so as soon as I see one.

  281. Im not the one who insults 🙂 

  282. Telling untruth as truth is lying. And as long as you do that its you who will  always lie. Plus telling others as liars. And said you caught in your imagination.

  283. Oh oh, you cant promote ur religion. only able to insult other religion? 

  284. cchuckc says:

    //Tsk tsk, you cant bring your god to tell the law.//
    Can you? You blindly follow what that porcine Muhammad fed you up with despite all the attrocities he comitted in the name of Allah. Even in this thread we saw the hadiths!!

    //no need to keep repeating same stuff again and again. //
    But you keep on repeating the same lies again and again 🙂

  285. cchuckc says:

    //Ohhh they taught to insult, but cant insult again now?//
    Telling the truth isn't insulting. You lied, I caught you doing so several times. You warranted death penalty for critics of your version of Malaikat Gabriel, we all saw that.

    //he did make his messengers able to talk to dead people//
    The messenger was lying since nobody else could hear what was being said by the dead:-). The argument was between respective abilities of Darwin/Dawkins, who didn't claim prophethood and Allah/Muhammad with regards to Demsci's deceased parent. Prove that Allah or Muhammad can talk with them or shut up.

  286. cchuckc says:

    //You are not god, malaikat nor messenger. why…why your god didnt send you as holy prophet //
    Because my God isn't so weak that It will require intermediaries 🙂

    //ur not omniscient?//
    I am not required to be. Are you?

    //Why did your god tell you so? Why not your god tell himself? //
    Does these two sentences even make sense together? Islamic logic can take you only that far!!

  287. My intention here isnt to argue. But to remind or sharing. not to insult and not to force. no need to keep repeating same stuff again and again.

  288. Tsk tsk, you cant bring your god to tell the law. Still ur talking about others god.

  289. Ohhh they taught to insult, but cant insult again now? Allah able to resurrect whom he wants,and he did make his messengers able to talk to dead people. Tsk tsk. Poor you. 

  290. Why did your god tell you so? Why not your god tell himself? 

  291. How many god do you have?

  292. Tch tch cos of me? Why not tch tch you? ur not omniscient?

  293. You are not god, malaikat nor messenger. why…why your god didnt send you as holy prophet

  294. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Think, if one person is right, and meets a person who is wrong and never stop//
    So why are you arguing that Islam is good:-)? Stop your lies!!!

  295. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Why cant darwin, richard dawkin bring back your parents to life, and talk to us? //
    Because they never claimed themselves to be Gods. Why cant Muhammad or Allah bring back your forefathers to life, and talk to us?

    //You cant give law made by god yet. //
    Neither can you, your laws are made by a barbaric charlatan and robber

  296. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Why tch tch?//
    I was pitying your lack of knowledge and education.

    //What did your god teach you? To insult? Oh great. wow no pride. //
    My God taught me to lay bare the facts, expose the lies and counter illogical stuffs that I see around and feel strongly against.

  297. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //And how holy are you, mr chuck?//
    I never claimed to be holy or a messenger of any God:-)
    // What bad things have you done? tell me//
    Why should I tell you? I must have done a few bad things but it is neither as grave and far fewer in count than Muhammad.

    //….admit your sins. Be honest. We want to hear. //
    I am not a muslim, that means I have fewer committed far fewer sins than you.

  298. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //speaking ghibah gossip behind my back?//
    Nobody was, oh may be Slave was because somehow he felt it right to jump in with his ideas 'defending' you:-)

  299. I dnt wnt to argue. Its clear. Its up to you if  you want to dream.

  300. Think, if one person is right, and meets a person who is wrong and never stops debate even that hes wrong, is it smart to tell red is red to blind person who says its black? Argueing is okay for something like, violet is blue or purple. 

  301. Why cant darwin, richard dawkin bring back your parents to life, and talk to us? 

  302. Your law is man made. You cant give law made by god yet. 

  303. What did your god teach you? To insult? Oh great.  wow no pride.

  304. And how holy are you, mr chuck? What bad things have you done? tell me….admit your sins. Be honest. We want to hear.

  305. *coughs* speaking ghibah gossip behind my back? x.x 

  306. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    Q 9:29 is one of the best proof of the weakness of Islam and Allah. It shows that Allah is so much dependent on human agency and has no real trust on judgement Day. It is a further proof of how intolerant Islam really is and Muslims in general are, just like @narcole.

  307. Sakat says:

    @Slaveprophet
    /Do you know Hitler./
    Oh yes i know Hitler very well ,he was direct brother of Mad Mohammed.
    /He was punished for his mischief in the end by the people of this world and people prayed to lord for hereafter punishment also of him./
    Oh!! yes,yes he was punished soooo bad,but elder brother escaped and it is so sad for the whole of humanity.One thing is certain they have united in the hell after their death ,how fortunate they are isn't it ……xD

  308. slaveofprophet says:

    @cchucks
    There is famous proverb in India "'Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghaat ka"'  which means in English "A dog who runs after two bones catches neither /One who rides two boats is sure to be overthrown

     same as non-believer. Non-believers get punished twice here and hereafter. Through this divine verse 9:29 Allah gives us indication that non-believers past, present and future will be in complete dark. Do you know Hitler. He was punished for his mischief in the end by the people of this world and people prayed to lord for hereafter punishment also of him.

  309. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //Which is the mechanism you are talking about? //
    According to Islam, Judgement Day is reserved for judging all the misgivings, hence the injunction of killing by narcole and as indeed Quran 9:29 are blasphamous and self-contradictory :-).

  310. slaveofprophet says:

    @cchuckc
     Which is the mechanism you are talking about? Quran/Allah/Prophet  nowhere promotes non-Islamism & Islam does not give any injunction for the flourishing of Non-Islamic religions. Quran clearly says in Chapter 9
    9: 28  O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad )! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad ) are Najasun (impure) . So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

    9: 29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

  311. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //Okay, you answered the purpose of eggshell. also automatically answered your own question. //
    I didn't ask any question on eggshells 🙂 I inquired about your injunction to kill people who in your view 'insult' Allah, Muhammad or even Gabriel when Allah already has a mechanism for it available?

    //Ur not saying body is more or less important than soul. Okay. //
    Yes. I am saying that the question of 'more importance' doesn't arise.

    //Reptiles werent birds. And birds werent reptiles nor fish//
    Tch tch.

  312. Demsci says:

    I suppose you think that when mortal men contradict "Allah" through his "message", the Quran, Allah must trump the mere mortals.

    But we say that that "divine message" was ALSO manmade. And so it becomes a matter of comparing theories of humans, and also comparing modern theories with ancient ones. Using research and logic, not this "divine prejudice".

    Really, your "Allah" is being severely challenged by his own creations, the humans, the scientists. Why doesn't HE help his followers more?

  313. Demsci says:

    //"birds werent reptiles nor fish."//

    Does this response mean you again want to argue about this? Do you still trust the creationist Adnan Oktar/ Harun Yahyah on this? For us, his evolutionist competitors, like Richard Dawkins, are so much more convincing.

    As far as we can tell amphibies evolved from fish, reptiles from amphibies, and birds from reptiles (some say birds are dinosaur survivors).

  314. Demsci says:

    //"Either ur wrong or right, u will always argue."//

    Look, Narcole, Arguing is very important and interesting here. And I think it is almost certainly a little bit useful for the thinking process and growth of many visitors.

    But what you may mean is that it is better to search for the highest truth we can find

    than only wanting to win an argument or only wanting to confirm one's own established opinion.
    But this is valid remark as much for you and me as for Chuck. It is hard to explain why one of us is better or worse in searching for the highest truth we can find as opposed to only try to "WIN" an argument or only try to strengthen a prejudice we might have.

    Perhaps you have the very big prejudice of Islam. You have invested so much of your life in it, that it may be very hard for you to search for the highest truth as objectively as you can, listen as best as you can for it,

    because you have blocked yourself to finding higher truth with your Islam, with your determined road.

    But your life may be very long and will you keep restricting yourself in this way all the way?

    And you may ask the same questions to us.

  315. Reptiles werent birds. And birds werent reptiles nor fish. 

  316. Ur not saying body is more or less important than soul. Okay.

  317. Okay, you answered the purpose of eggshell. also automatically answered your own question. 

  318. Do your parents have freedom of speech to insult now? Can the medicine resurrect them now?

  319. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //Don''t say humans were snake millions of years before//
    Why million of years ago, we still have human being who behave like poisonous snakes, for example the 'true' muslims. By the way genetic mutation is a testable fact and evolutionary development is a robust enough theory especially of the genetic mutation variety.

  320. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //Then for what your God made the eggs//
    Don't intervene in the egg laying process and see what it yields:-). That should tell you, ordinarily, what the purpose of laying eggs is. And why only humans, even snakes, rats, and a host of other animals eat eggs, so nothing special in human eating eggs.

  321. slaveofprophet says:

    @cchuck
    ___________hens don't lay eggs with the intent of allowing human to eat them"

    Then for what your God made the eggs if they are not for consumed by humans?

  322. slaveofprophet says:

    @cchuckc
    Please, Don''t say humans were snake millions of years before. 

  323. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Million years ago, reptiles were reptiles. Birds were birds. //
    But not the same reptile or the same bird.

  324. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //If you dont eat the shell, then why the chickens lay eggs with shell? //
    Typical Muslim consumerism. This may shock you, but hens don't lay eggs with the intent of allowing human to eat them. The egg shell has its own protective purpose which is beneficial to the reproduction and multiplication of the bird/animal that lays the egg.

    //So, body is more important than soul? the glass is more important than water? its okay if the water poisoned as long as the glass not broken? //
    To Muhammad the body was important to soul. For a normal human being there is no comparison. Different people have different take on existence and form of soul, while it can be universally accepted that there is indeed a body. So the body is definitely important. Assuming there is a soul, the body is still important since it is the carrier of the soul. Without the body the soul can't function in the physical realm. So the body is very important even if the soul is poisoned as you say (For example Muhammad's was). I am not saying that it is more or less important than the 'soul'. By the way, even Islam says that during the Judgement Day the whole body is resurrected to undergo the pain of hellfire or to enjoy the bliss of paradise (Islamic definition of bliss: uninterrupted drinking and sex). So even Islam works with the principle of body being supreme in the deliverance of the Judgement.

  325. Demsci says:

    Hey Sakat, Thanks! your compliments and additions mean a lot to me. They deepen my understanding and convictions.

    So Democratic, so-called "manmade" laws trump Shariah laws, the so-called "divine"  laws, we think, don't we?

  326. Demsci says:

    //"So, body is more important than soul? the glass is more important than water? its okay if the water poisoned as long as the glass not broken?"//

    You see insults, especially those of your favored exceptions; Allah, Mohammed, The Quran, as ONLY poison. They may indeed be poison at times, but perhaps much more often good medicine, healing the consequences of evil or stupid human practices (sometimes presented as DIVINE practices).

    I think you suffer from a fallacy. Not precisely, but a bit  like the Luddite fallacy. That is: When machines take over human work, it is indeed tragic for those who lose their source of income, yes,

    but the fallacy lies in the expectation that that harm is the only or predominant permanent consequence of the machine taking over human work.

    But economists tell us that machines tend to lower costs of products and services, and therefore give humans as a whole more purchasing power, to satisfy more desires,

    so they create more demand of goods and services. And THAT will give humans more jobs for supplying for those NEW demands. Only later on, in the long run.

    It is a bit the same as you only focusing on the bad side of criticism with insults, while ignoring the good sides which trump the bad side. IMO of course.

    What you favor, censorship, has already been tried, Narcole, and it's opposite, freedom of speech is better! For progress, prosperity and thus longer, happier lives for higher percentages of mankind. Or better, more moral government and behavior of the total of mankind. IMO.

  327. Million years ago, reptiles were reptiles. Birds were birds. 

  328. So, body is more important than soul? the glass is more important than water? its okay if the water poisoned as long as the glass not broken?

  329. Sakat says:

    @Demsci
    Nice presentations !!!. Let me add something .In democratic set-up ,the state has got absolute monopoly on criminal jurisprudence; a citizen is free to move for the production of any person before the court (especially when the investigating agencies took people to their custody against their will ) through a writ of "Habeas Corpus" and thus be guaranteed individual right .But this cannot be expected in sharia ruled states .Now the questioned remained,whether ? Allah is prudent or we humans.Thanks.

  330. Demsci says:

    Well, in evolutionary terms: approx. 380 million years "Tictalic", a fish, crawled on land. It's descendants were the forebears of amphibies, reptiles, birds and mammals. It layed eggs that needed to hatch in water. But after a long time reptiles and birds were able to lay eggs with such shells that they could hatch on land. Shells had a huge benefit.

    And of course predators like humans are after the eggs to eat their contents, but not their shells.

  331. Demsci says:

    My parents were Christians and believed they were going to heaven. But I don't know.

    Both my parents and I were formed by our Dutch society. And the Dutch on average are indeed a very critical and fortright people. And it shows in the media and politics. In that regard, yes, I was taught to insult, both to give AND to take. But I was also taught that the state has the monopoly on violence.

    And that violence, hurting bodies, still is sooooooo much worse than just hurting feelings, by insulting.

    In our law there exists some kind of rule called "habeas corpus", meaning that the body is sacrosanct and should not be touched against it's owners will. And I think the words "autonomy over the body" also describe this rule.

    But insulting God, "holy" historical persons, or books, or politicians, celebrities etc, that is allowed under democracy, up to some borders, in the media, but not so much on the streets or on the workfloor. The people have the right of protection of their bodies, but not to the same extent of their feelings.

    People who promote censorship on real or only perceived insulting show their totalitarian attitude. We Westerners tried all this totalitarian censorship stuff in the past, it had terrible results, and we long since have moved beyond it.

  332. If you dont eat the shell, then why the chickens lay eggs with shell?

  333. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Do you eat eggs without shell?//
    I know nobody who eats eggs with its shell, but may be you do. I am not sure. Please enlighten us on such a grave topic.

  334. Well no wonder u insult as you like. Your parents taught you. And where are they now? What are they doing now?

  335. Demsci says:

    //"Do you insult your parents everyday?"//
    They are both deceased. But  when they lived no, very seldom. But at times I did and it was not forbidden by them. At times they insulted me too. We blamed and criticized each other sometimes. But most of the time when we interacted we were neutral and often we praised and supported each other.

    That is how I like Muslims to see infidels too. The infidels on aggregate are most of the time peaceful to the Muslims, very often praising and supporting (many) Muslims, often against other infidels. But in between they also criticize and insult Muslims. As infidels do to each other. As they do to God.

    Muslims should see criticism and insults to them and God in the context of this neutrality, praise and  support of infidels toward Muslims and God. And accept the bad with the good. Instead of ignoring the good coming from the infidels and endeavouring to censor the bad, with violence.

    Mohammed in this hadith about his response to  Kab's "maligning" gives a very bad example, he is being a very bad rolemodel here. At best to be called "obsolete", at worst "barbaric".

  336. Do you eat eggs without shell?

  337. Do you insult your parents everyday?

  338. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721

    //Insulting the messenger means insulting the sender.//
    🙂 But your very own Allah has a mechanism of hellfire instituted for such 'crimes'. Why should the agency of a human being required. Is your Allah that weak? Or is It not sure of the Judgement Day, something It claims to be coming in future anyway? Demsci's concern is also relevant. Why is your Allah so touchy what a mere human being says or feels like, isn't Allah himself to blame for that since He claims to have sealed their heart?

  339. Demsci says:

    But Narcole, there are other big problems with a sort of  rule or law that insulting God should be punishable.

    First of all; The messenger may not be a messenger from God at all and only be lying or mistaken that he heard the voice of God. In that case believers have made an untrue assumption.

    Second; what if a critic offers genuine valid criticism, and does it with the emotion of righteous anger, because of crimes committed by the supposed messenger?

    Criticizing and correcting a misbehaving "messenger" might be supporting his victims and be better for (the future) of mankind. We should not ASSUME that a critic has bad intentions or is erratic or wrong. But instead listen to him. If we are familiar with his charges, we can think about them, argue and insult back, ignore him, react non-violent in response to insulting people. 

    So, in the case of on the one side critics/ insulters with ONLY verbal insults, and on the other side the criticized persons, those who follow them,

    the criticized and followers will in the eyes of reasonable, civilized people, commit a grave crime if they murder or even harm the critics/ insulters. It seems to me and I think billions of people.

  340. Demsci says:

    Narcole, thanks for responding. I only chastized your support for capital punishment for "maligning Allah and his Messenger", not your whole person. Where I come from punishing free speech is a horrible crime.

    You say that WHEN ultimately God is insulted, THEN deathpenalty might be just? We should try to reconsider that. Even if it were true that a human intentionally insulted God. Would not God just shrug it off, laugh about it? Or: Understand it?

    Could the believers in God not keep their faith and love for God strong enough, with the help of God, even when other humans mocked God?

    Is mocking God really such a huge crime, in the great scheme of things?

  341. Insulting the messenger means insulting the sender. And the sender is God. which religions that allow the creation insult the universe creator? 

  342. Demsci says:

    //"Even whoever insults malaikat gabriel, must be killed."// Terrible, horrible attitude to me! Like the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Totally un-democratic, even anti-democratic.

    You do understand that it is very arbitrary about what constitutes an insult, don't you, Narcole? If a powerful, corrupt or stupid group wants to silence criticism, it can LABEL that criticism, and all parts of it, as "insulting". And silence a critic forever with violence, prison, diverse pain, scaring other potential critics.

    And of course you make Malaikat Gabriel (and Mohammed) the exception, because as per your values all other humans or gods or angels can still be "insulted" by anyone with impunity, I suppose, so also by Muslims? Else, where do Muslims place the boundaries, and are these boundaries fair, equally protecting the feelings of Muslims and infidels?

    And remember, insulting someone's holy persons, is only hurting FEELINGS. And then you advocate responding by hurting BODIES?

    What you say about holding your tongue in check during the day can be useful, polite, keeping order, but need only be applied to direct contact on the streets and the workfloor, but even for disturbing the peace there, the deathpenalty is outrageous!

    Mohammed lived in the 7th century, but as Norbert Elias and Steven Pinker have shown with many examples, people nowadays are much more civilized and less barbaric and they definitely kill less other humans per capita (estimates say that  in Europe in the middle ages homicide per 100.000 people was 50 tot 100 times worse than at present!).

    And to rely on Mohammed as rolemodel in his murderous reaction to Kab's taunting verbal-only criticism should be considered as obsolete and monstrous in present society.

  343. Demsci says:

    True. I believe organised crime is thoroughly evil and very powerful and that it often unites, into crimefamilies and cartels. And that it should be enemy nr 1 for both Muslims and Infidels. But under democracy, with good laws, for all, and good governance in districts, cities, regions and countries. With good education and free speech. Etc.

    If Muslims in this period choose to fight Democracies with violence and Science with arguing, I think they are wasting their time/ energy and they cannot win, neither against the Democracies and Science, nor against criminals.

    I think somehow, with or without Islam, they must either embrace democracy and science or go live in some Islamic Shariah district or country.Because some of those can be allowed to exist.

    If they retain Islam under Democracy, they can later on in 21st century only do so by interpreting many violent, supremacist texts in Quran-Hadiths-Sira  Symbolically and as timebound, so obsolete/ inactive for now.

    But if they persist in intolerant, supremacist, anti-Democratic interpretations of Quran-Hadiths-Sira, then good democratic people will eventually in big numbers unite against such evil.

  344. Sakat says:

    @Slaveprophet
    Only slave required Masters and not the Masters ha ha ha .Doggy barks but the master is not confused it to debate (only slave Muslim consider its barking as ,"doing azhan by dogs" to Allah ) ha ha ha……….. 😀

  345. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //Allah was aware people like you would never believe in true religion Islam / prophet and interestingly this was foreseen hundred of years before. Q 2:6,2:7//
    Poor him. Those among Muhammad's folk who could see through the ruse and were not prepared to be persuaded by his bogus hocus-pocus were subjected to such verses. This actually proves that these verses were inventions by this lout. It was an easy way of disposing off the disbelievers 🙂

    //We don't need certificate from you about the character of our prophet//
    I am not issuing certificates about your characterless prophet, I am merely telling you what he was.

  346. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Even whoever insults malaikat gabriel, must be killed.//
    Malaikat Gabriel, as seen by Muhammad doesn't exist. But at last, the real Islamic you is coming out, the one that espouses death for disagreement.

  347. slaveofprophet says:

    @Saket
    _________he is not ordinary being ____
    Ask to your master chuck to debate with me. Truth wins always.

  348. slaveofprophet says:

    @chuckc
     Allah was aware people like you would never believe in true religion Islam / prophet and interestingly this was foreseen hundred of years before:-
    "Quran 2:7 & 2:6
    Indeed, those who disbelieve – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe. (2:6)
    Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment." {2:7}

    _____Muhammad (Piss Be Upon Him) was a common thug, a charlatan, rapist and robber____

    We don't need certificate from you about the character of our prophet(PBUH). For us prophet (PBUH) was a  saint, scientist, philosopher, philanthropist, greatest human being ever born and very dearest person of Almighty Allah / God.

  349. lonelyloner says:

    So we're born in non muslim family because of allah's curse,
    And it's also because of allah's curse that we can not understand the true religion of islam.
    So it's allah who has condemned us in this future eternal hellfire.
    Great, so it's allah who caused us to not believe in allah. Then why should we change? If we change then we're going against allah's curse, allah's wish, is that what allah wants? And if that is so, then why bother cursing us in first place?

    Ok, so it's allah who will have placed us in hell, but allah being 'most merciful' here means he can also not put us in hell (by accepting Muhammad).
    How is that being merciful to you?

    It's same thing as if you, right out of the blue, suddenly being told that you owe Lonelyloner a 100 dollars debt, and that you must pay me. Why is this so? Because Lonelyloner said so, it's not something you did, not even your fault, it's what I simply say.
    But there's a way out: if you simply say you accept prophet Ali Sina, then your debt is cleared, and that's how Lonelyloner is 'most merciful'.

    All this sound sane to you?

    I'm sorry, I actually gave a thumbs up, because what you said above's just so hilariously funny.
    What's even funnier to me is you probably don't realize how crazy you are.

  350. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //your heart also being sealed to understand the true religion Islam.//
    In fact It opened my heart to correctly understand both the true religion as well as Islam. And that realization told me that these two can't be same 🙂

    //But allah is most merciful if you accept prophet Muhammad (PBUH)//
    Muhammad (Piss Be Upon Him) was a common thug, a charlatan, rapist and robber. The supreme being is most merciful to have already told me that.

    //You future is eternal hellfire.//
    Sorry, but I am insulated against hellfire, whatever that be.

  351. slaveofprophet says:

    @cHUCKS
    Allah curse not on the Muslims but on the non-Muslims like you that is why you born in a non-muslim family and your heart also being sealed to understand the true religion Islam. Dear, you in extreme curse.You future is eternal hellfire. But allah is most merciful if you accept prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as final prophet(PBUH) and remember him in worship of Allah, your sins can be forgiven by Allah.

  352. Well i admit he never said ha ha ha here.

  353. Even whoever insults malaikat gabriel, must be killed. Everyone should watch his own mouth. Tounge can be sharper than sword. Everyday all body parts tell to becareful with tounge. It can harm other body parts.

  354. When did maslama say, Can I talk to Kab in any way I see fit? which the arabic text.

  355. Sakat says:

    @narcole
    I told you long back ,when you entered this site,not to challenge Chuck ,he is not ordinary being ,may be an American citizen and a scientist by profession (it is his own admission) .If i am not wrong he is much influenced by Jainism a noble and practical religion and an ancient religion of India ,who knows ,he may be born in a Jains family as 'Chakrapani ' (a familiar term in Jainism) .Of course ,this is beyond your comprehension ,you are defending a dieing religion based on total falsehood .If your arguments continues with him ,i am afraid you will be reduced to skeleton ( including your Sheiks) ha ha ha.

  356. Sakat says:

    @ Chuck
    /I count many like you and blame Islam for the way they are /.
    mate million dollar reply hates up !!!! ROFALMAO!!!

  357. Demsci says:

    //"Check, where?"//
    Anyway Narcole, there may be not the explicit word "lie" in that text you present. But does that really comfort you? Maslama does ask: Can I talk to Kab in any way I see fit? I mean, what is the point in asking for permission if it is merely about talking, visiting? Anyway,  even that, without specific lying, still will be in the guise of just a visit and it will also be makebelieve, deceit. It is not the same as going to a person and informing him straightaway about charges against him.

    But even more embarrassing to me it seems is what the text starts with; For the reason that Kab had "maligned Allah and Mohammed" Mohammed had sentenced him to death!!! And he was asking: Who will kill Kab? And he said yes, when Maslama asked; Do you want me to kill him?

    How can you justify this "deathsentence" for mere verbal opposition by Kab?How can you not feel embarrassed by such an obvious unjust tyrannical order of your beloved rolemodel?

  358. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Are you satisfied with just cursing//
    I didn't curse you. The curse of Islam is on you. I simply caught your lies and showed you the mirror. You have come one full circle. This is very typical of a liar, first lie and then smarting when caught, preach sermons and cry victimization. Known trick.

  359. Are you satisfied with just cursing? 

  360. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //eventhough im obviously right//
    Liar. Liar. tch tch.
    // Cos there certain type of person who still argues no matter what.//
    And there are certain types who can't stop lying even when the evidence is shown:-). fight your ego and fight islam.

  361. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //so u accused the site u quoted lying//
    When did I say the site is lying? Lying again? You keep on referring to the wrong link:-).
    // I wont argue anymore. Its clear.//
    Its very clear who is running away. This is also a mark of a liar.
    //Its obvious u like to argue with negativity //
    Try this elsewhere.

  362. Enough argueing. eventhough im obviously right, that no arabic word for ur lie accusation, as the hadith i already mentioned, ill stop here. Cos there certain type of person who still argues no matter what. you should fight your ego before you fight us. may god give you hidayah. 

  363. The arabic hadith didnt say a word of lie. we both cant find a word of it in arabic. Enough with english translation. I even didnt find in other language.

  364. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721

    //This is from the site u mentioned. Now boomerang? //
    Where's the boomerang. You are trying your best to insert Muslim when I am referring to Bukhari. Thats Taqiya. And even here the event is same. Same deception, allowed by that wretched Muhammad to finish off a political adversary.

  365. so u accused the site u quoted lying? Well give up, sir. Its obvious u like to argue with negativity even before you tabayyun. Case closed. I wont argue anymore. Its clear. Your own site answered itself.

  366. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    Check here: http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64

    As far as Muslim is concerned, here also the event is same if not the word. The intent was to lie to Ka'b and lure him in a trap. Muhammad permits it.

  367. http://sunnah.com/muslim/32/146

    This is from the site u mentioned. Now boomerang? 

  368. cchuckc says:

    @narcole
    //and i gave the names of the tellers. Why didnt you? //
    The primary dillema with lying is once the person is caught, he/she will argue with semantics. The narrator is Jabir bin `Abdullah and this I have already written when I quoted Shahi Bukhari in the first place!! Moral of the story, don't lie and think that you won't be caught doing so 🙂

  369. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    I just checked muslim's arabic hadith also muslims hadith in other language in many places. //
    Muslim's? This is from Shahi Bukhari!! And in which languages have you checked? Can you quote references? I have given even the Arabic text and even the particular word you are looking for!!!! And what does Maslama do with Ka'b. Does he or does he not lie?

  370. حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْحَنْظَلِيُّ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ الْمِسْوَرِ الزُّهْرِيُّ كِلَاهُمَا عَنْ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ وَاللَّفْظُ لِلزُّهْرِيِّ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ عَنْ عَمْرٍو سَمِعْتُ جَابِرًا and i gave the names of the tellers. Why didnt you?

  371. cchuckc says:

    I gave you the whole quote:-) And the link from one of the most respected site on sunnah!! Poor liar. Do you see the word شَيْئًا‏? What does it mean?

  372. I just checked muslim's arabic hadith also muslims hadith in other language in many places. Theres no 'something' even in other language, it wrote, allow me to talk. 

  373. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721 tsk tsk. Poor liar. That word means 'Something'. The translator makes it clear what that something is. If you read the whole hadeeth you would know what the plan was. Maslama with permission from Muhammad goes to Ka'b and says few bad things (thats your 'something') to win his confidence. You really have to be a blind to not been able to see that, or a liar. I think the second one 🙂

  374. And where in above arabic hadith written شَيْئً? Above lafazh from az zuhri, in muslim book. Whose lafazh is your english hadith?

  375. شَيْئً?? Can anybody bring arabic dictionary what شَيْئً means? 

  376. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721 //So u always read hadith in only one language? // Doesn't matter in what language a hadeeth is read. The essence of the hadeeth comes out anyway. Or do you think your very own Islamic translators were fool to leave behind such clinching evidences? http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64

  377. cchuckc says:

    And here is the Arabic text: قَالَ فَأْذَنْ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ شَيْئًا‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ قُلْ ‏"

    And Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a thing. This 'thing' for which permission is being sought is a lie, the translator makes it clear and we find in the hadeeth later that Ibn Maslama denounces Muhammad in front of Ka'b.

  378. So u always read hadith in only one language? I always read hadiths and quran at  least in two or three languages, even compare qurans tajwid, translations and tafseers. And always back to the arabic. Thank god im familiar with arabic since little. Iv read many translations. But checking the arabic is always the clearest. Now if you're unlucky enough in arabic. You may bring an arab to point which the lie word in here. Also to prove which the source of the hadith.

  379. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721 //I didnt find what u said in this arabic hadith, mr chuck.//
    Lying again Narcole? Now check the hadeeth again, if required in Arabic, or give me a link where the hadeeth is available in Arabic since what you quoted above is not fully correct. The English translation is here http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit

  380. I didnt find what u said in this arabic hadith, mr chuck. Now please help me to tabayyun what you found in here. 

  381. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Now please point which from the arabic words that contain lie. You may bring a translator here. //
    Why? If you think the translation from me is wrong simply point out the error. I have already told you how that is beneficial to everybody on this forum including you.

  382. cchuckc says:

    @narcole __//Either ur wrong or right, u will always argue.//__Very simple. If I am wrong you can easily find flaw in it, just as I have repeatedly done with you.____//The point is i noticed argueing as your hobby.//__What do you think, you will throw Islamic Dawah material, mostly kithman, at us and I will not find how hollow your claims are?

  383. Now please point which from the arabic words that contain lie. You may bring a translator here.

  384. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721 //why ur english hadith shorter than the arabic hadith, could you explain? And why many words here not there?. //

    Off course. It is not shorter, I have left out the portion that actually describes the heinous gruesome killing because that doesn't add meat to my comment. I merely wanted you to refer to the part where Muhammad permits lying to kill his political enemy. The later part doesn't say anything about Muhammad. Can you deny then Muhammad allowed lying when it benefited him?

  385. I did put abu dawood but the comment box didnt open my clipboard. anyway thats not the point. The point is i noticed argueing as your hobby. Either ur wrong or right, u will always argue. While as moslem and want to be mukmin, to complete iman, eventhough im right, im told not to mind your arguments. Cos i want perfection for my iman. heaven isnt my goal but gods ridha by obeying prophet ^^ so we better here for sharing, not for argueing. 

  386. Mr chuck…why ur english hadith shorter than the arabic hadith, could you explain? And why many words here not there?.

  387. قَالَ فَجَاءُوا فَدَعَوْهُ لَيْلًا فَنَزَلَ إِلَيْهِمْ قَالَ سُفْيَانُ قَالَ غَيْرُ عَمْرٍو قَالَتْ لَهُ امْرَأَتُهُ إِنِّي لَأَسْمَعُ صَوْتًا كَأَنَّهُ صَوْتُ دَمٍ قَالَ إِنَّمَا هَذَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ وَرَضِيعُهُ وَأَبُو نَائِلَةَ إِنَّ الْكَرِيمَ لَوْ دُعِيَ إِلَى طَعْنَةٍ لَيْلًا لَأَجَابَ قَالَ مُحَمَّدٌ إِنِّي إِذَا جَاءَ فَسَوْفَ أَمُدُّ يَدِي إِلَى رَأْسِهِ فَإِذَا اسْتَمْكَنْتُ مِنْهُ فَدُونَكُمْ قَالَ فَلَمَّا نَزَلَ نَزَلَ وَهُوَ مُتَوَشِّحٌ فَقَالُوا نَجِدُ مِنْكَ رِيحَ الطِّيبِ قَالَ نَعَمْ تَحْتِي فُلَانَةُ هِيَ أَعْطَرُ نِسَاءِ الْعَرَبِ قَالَ فَتَأْذَنُ لِي أَنْ أَشُمَّ مِنْهُ قَالَ نَعَمْ فَشُمَّ فَتَنَاوَلَ فَشَمَّ ثُمَّ قَالَ أَتَأْذَنُ لِي أَنْ أَعُودَ قَالَ فَاسْتَمْكَنَ مِنْ رَأْسِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ دُونَكُمْ قَالَ فَقَتَلُوهُ

  388. حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْحَنْظَلِيُّ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ الْمِسْوَرِ الزُّهْرِيُّ كِلَاهُمَا عَنْ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ وَاللَّفْظُ لِلزُّهْرِيِّ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ عَنْ عَمْرٍو سَمِعْتُ جَابِرًا يَقُولُا قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مَنْ لِكَعْبِ بْنِ الْأَشْرَفِ فَإِنَّهُ قَدْ آذَى اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَالَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَتُحِبُّ أَنْ أَقْتُلَهُ قَالَ نَعَمْ قَالَ ائْذَنْ لِي فَلْأَقُلْ قَالَ قُلْ فَأَتَاهُ فَقَالَ لَهُ وَذَكَرَ مَا بَيْنَهُمَا وَقَالَ إِنَّ هَذَا الرَّجُلَ قَدْ أَرَادَ صَدَقَةً وَقَدْ عَنَّانَا فَلَمَّا سَمِعَهُ قَالَ وَأَيْضًا وَاللَّهِ لَتَمَلُّنَّهُ قَالَ إِنَّا قَدْ اتَّبَعْنَاهُ الْآنَ وَنَكْرَهُ أَنْ نَدَعَهُ حَتَّى نَنْظُرَ إِلَى أَيِّ شَيْءٍ يَصِيرُ أَمْرُهُ قَالَ وَقَدْ أَرَدْتُ أَنْ تُسْلِفَنِي سَلَفًا قَالَ فَمَا تَرْهَنُنِي قَالَ مَا تُرِيدُ قَالَ تَرْهَنُنِي نِسَاءَكُمْ قَالَ أَنْتَ أَجْمَلُ الْعَرَبِ أَنَرْهَنُكَ نِسَاءَنَا قَالَ لَهُ تَرْهَنُونِي أَوْلَادَكُمْ قَالَ يُسَبُّ ابْنُ أَحَدِنَا فَيُقَالُ رُهِنَ فِي وَسْقَيْنِ مِنْ تَمْرٍ وَلَكِنْ نَرْهَنُكَ اللَّأْمَةَ يَعْنِي السِّلَاحَ قَالَ فَنَعَمْ وَوَاعَدَهُ أَنْ يَأْتِيَهُ بِالْحَارِثِ وَأَبِي عَبْسِ بْنِ جَبْرٍ وَعَبَّادِ بْنِ بِشْرٍ 

  389. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    // tell me what do you think i should do toward these hadiths//
    The second one is from Abu Dawud. I don't think Bukhari or Muslim considered it Shahi. You should have mentioned that.

    And I produce a Shahi one, proof of Muhammad's approval of lying. You may call him B-Iman if you want to.
    Shahi Bukhari 5.369:
    Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka`b bin Al−Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka`b). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
    ….
    ….

  390. Ah mr chuck, tell me what do you think i should do toward these hadiths, 

    The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “A Momin cannot have complete faith unless he gives up falsehood in his jokes and debates, though in all other matters he speaks the truth.” [Ahmed]

    Abu Umamah al-Bahili reports: Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said:I guarantee a house in the lower portion of Jannah for whoever gives up arguing even if he is right, and a house in the middle of Jannah for whoever gives up lying even if he is joking, and a house for in the highest level of Jannah for whoever perfects their akhlaq. 

  391. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Well one thing for sure, shia and sunni can not unite in aqidah. //
    Perhaps because Shias are ahead of the Sunnis in Iman 🙂

    //Untruths and iman don't mix//
    Just as I said, lying in itself isn't considered 'untruth' in Islam. Lying is permissible in Islam if it is used to defend or promote Islam, especially lying to infidel isn't considered lying at all :-). I have already pointed out your lies even in this thread. that should suffice as evidence. Islamic Iman, my big foot!!

    // It seems you didnt read much.//
    Enough to see through your pseudo logic. Just see how you have run away from the topic and are discussing something entirely different now.

    //Just read. So? o.o //
    So it proves that when you quote Jesus saying that don't call others Fools you miss the whole context of what Jesus is talking about. That isn't a prohibition against calling a fool Fool:-)

  392. Untruths and iman don't mix. It seems you didnt read much. Thank god you met me ^^

  393. Well one thing for sure, shia and sunni can not unite in aqidah.

  394. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //So ur following jesus whom u thought ever called people foolish?//
    Read my comment again. Also read Matthew 5:22

  395. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I haven't lost my iman, so u lied//
    Since you lied, as proved in the earlier post, you have lost your Iman, by your own Islamic theory:-). But may be you are wrong in enjoining Iman with lying, since Iman has nothing to do with lying in Islam. The 2 requirements of Iman are a'mal-i salih and tawasi bi al-haqq wa tawasi bi al-sabr, where in the second point 'truth' refers to truth in faith, not actually speaking truth. Speaking a lie to further the cause of Islam is provided for in Muhammad's Sunnah.

  396. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //You must know evils unite to fight goodness.//
    Are you threatening that Shias and Sunnis will unite to fight the universal goodness? Well, seems unlikely but you never know. At least the way Shias are persecuted by the Sunnis gives us some hope 🙂

  397. You must know evils unite to fight goodness. 

  398. Demsci says:

    /"I thought u infidels unite o.o"/

    If you must know, Chuck and I are united in our goal, but may differ in strategy or approach.

    He focuses on, well, verbally fighting  Islam, he wishes to help eradicate it or severely discredit and diminish it. He does not care much what Muslims and infidels do as long as they choose against Islam.

    Whereas I focus more on what Muslims, and plenty infidels, could choose as religion, lifestyle, societal system, source of guidance instead of Islam.

    An example: When people still massively rode horses and used horse-and-buggies, around 1880, in big cities like Paris and London horse-manure was omnipresent and becoming a big problem.

    So writers, authorities and citizens sought to diminish the use of horses. But it was hard.
    But when bycycles and automobiles became popular the horses were almost totally replaced by them.

    I hope for something similar; that there will be a new religion/ lifestyle so DESIRED and APPRECIATED by Muslims and infidels alike that it will replace Islam, rather easy and voluntary.

  399. Demsci says:

    //"I thought u infidels unite o.o"//

    Well, complicated. Who do you mean by "u infidels"? All non-Muslims? These are frightfully DIVIDED. And Muslims hugely prophit from the divisions.

    The counterjihadists you meet on this site? Well, these IMO are united in DEFENSE against totalitarian, supremacist and intolerant Islam and Muslims (you may interpret this as only a part of Islam and Muslims being totalitarian, supremacist and intolerant  but it is a very big and threathening part).

    (You may also argue that it is only a wrong interpretation of Islam that makes a part of self-confessed Muslims totalitarian, supremacist and intolerant, but that part is a very big threathening part).

    And counterjihadists are united in favor of Freedom and Democracy and tolerance of all tolerant religions and movements.

    But they differ much concerning religion/ lifestyle and strategy.

  400. Lets read how many people disagree with you 🙂

  401. The comment box is sinas tool x)

  402. I haven't lost my iman, so u lied 😉

  403. So ur following jesus whom u thought ever called people foolish?

  404. Okay, in your opinion.

  405. I thought u infidels unite o.o

  406. Hm? Why? Chuck doesnt know his religion. Lets help him 🙂

  407. cchuckc says:

    @Emu,
    Learnt flying yet? Practice hard.

  408. Eagle says:

    @Narcole, I think this discussion going in one way, ask Chuck his religion, and you will be done !!

  409. cchuckc says:

    @Demsci
    //On the less important differences we can agree to disagree agreeably. //
    Definitely. Differences in opinion is the very essence of democracy. Variety after all is the spice of life and civilized institutions ensure that these differences coexist healthily. This I believe is the fundamental difference between Democracy and Autocracy especially the one founded on some kind of Theodicy.

  410. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Finish your arguments with him first.//
    Read point 2 above and the comment from Demsci following this 🙂

  411. cchuckc says:

    @narcole,
    //Once a person lies, he loses his iman, and his witnessing unreliable.//
    So you have lost your iman. Anyway muslims shouldn't talk about Iman.

    // I need to tell him comment box not inserting my typing fast. Its lagging. //
    A bad workman quarrels with his tools :-). If you have problem with the comment box, write on a notepad and then copy paste in the comment box. Simple.

  412. Demsci says:

    "Then how about accidents, can you prepare death before?"

    O, yes, of course. But 93 % of the people in developed countries do reach the age of 75. And half a million people are now 100. It is for those people of 100 years who previously only thought of living happily, and did not prepare for death, that at 100 it becomes time to do so IMO.

  413. Hm…i see…thats cos none of you gives consistency. To me 1 is 1.but to each of you 1 could be 3, 5, 4 etc. As long as you're not consistent, the subject will stay here. Discuss with ur allies first, dont differ in opinion. Or ull mislead 🙂  enough for now. The site not lettin me type more. Ciao.

  414. Demsci says:

    Well, even the word CHOICE that YOU use, implies alternatives to choose from.

    I only say; It is not a choice in favor of Islam or against Islam. It is a choice between Islam and it's many positive alternatives, which "infidels" should endeavour to formulate, follow and present to Muslims.

    Then, may people let the best choice win! For as high a percentage of humans leading happy, healthy, prosperous lives of 100 years (but that's just me).

  415. Demsci says:

    I agree with Chuck. my points were directed at you, Narcole. And he was already addressing you. And that remains so.

    You are free to go any time, but although almost 99 % of the responses to you are in opposition and negative to your faith, and often yourself too, it is you who keeps coming back and who get's by far the most attention. Maybe that is your trade-off (I mean receiving much negativity, yet also the most attention).

  416. The status of a liar calling a liar, untrustable. Once a person lies, he loses his iman, and his witnessing unreliable.Do you know sinas phone number? I need to tell him comment box not inserting my typing fast. Its lagging.

  417. Demsci says:

    I agree with you Chuck. We are not replica's or copies from each other, but with by far the most what you write I agree wholeheartedly and with much appreciation. On the less important differences we can agree to disagree agreeably.

  418. Demsci says:

    "even as infidels you dont unite"

    I think we should formulate alternatives to Islam, to formulate, believe in, follow.

    and then inform Muslims that THEY are the infidels to the alternative we formulate, believe in and follow. See how they feel about being called infidels.

  419. Alright. Finish your arguments with him first. 🙂

  420. Prepare death when 100 yo? Then how about accidents, can you prepare death before?

  421. Demsci says:

    you say: infidels differ in opinion!

    Well, ain't that the truth!!! As if you didn't know!!! especially since the word infidel for you Muslims include all adult sane humans who do not believe in Islam!

  422. God gives us democracy to choose, fasiq way or taqwa way. Choose and be responsible of it.

  423. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //How about you both discuss and come again after no more argueing//
    1. I am not raising his points. 2. We aren't arguing, 3. We needn't discuss, he is raising his points, I mine :-). Don't try divide and conquer 🙂

  424. Hm? Thats up to you, your choice, your responsibility. My choice my responsibility. O.O

  425. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Tsk tsk. See, either u or me has problem in understanding english//
    Must be yours. And I gave the solution few posts back 🙂

    //If hes a liar, calling a liar, then then status of negativity will stay the negative.//
    IF he is a liar, calling the other person liar, INCORRECTLY, then his/her status may be negative as you say. But if he is calling the other person liar CORRECTLY, then he is doing a positive thing. Simple:-)

  426. How about you both discuss and come again after no more argueing about which to say, and then tell me? ^^

  427. Demsci says:

    Chuck, I am a HE.

    Interesting that you compare Islam with poison. The whole Islam? Or parts of it? Do you just want to advise Muslims that it is only and entirely bad and to get rid of it?

    I see Islam as imperfect, but having somehow much value to Muslims, so for them something good. However, I like to advise them that there is something better!

  428. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //have you ever heard that jesus told not to call people foolish? //
    Yes. So? I didn't call you foolish. I called your proposition foolish. By the way Jesus didn't prohibit calling a Fool fool. Mathew 5:22 is in the context of calling somebody fool out of unrighteous anger. You aren't well read in the Christian scriptures it seems.

    //What soil? //
    The proverbial soil on which stands the proverbial grass which you were trying to cut or uproot:-). You were trying to allude to do a job in a well contented manner and I was saying that you have to be correct in your intention of doing the job correctly as well.

  429. Wining what? Are we in game? 0.0

  430. Tsk tsk. See, either u or me has problem in understanding english. I was asking the status of the person. Whether hes a liar or not. If hes a liar, calling a liar, then then status of negativity will stay the negative.

  431. Demsci says:

    The only difference between you and me being that the alternatives to Islam according to you must be worse than Islam (Islam being the best) and according to me better than Islam.

    On the matter of God or Allah, I suppose we could argue that there are no alternative Gods, but I think that there indeed are alternatives to Islam for people to choose from.

  432. have you ever heard that jesus told not to call people foolish? What soil? Oh you can start by yours first, since i respect older people ^^

  433. Demsci says:

    When you say Islam is the best, then even you admit that there are alternatives to Islam. Otherwise you should have said: Islam is the ONLY way.

  434. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //But whats the status of the person who calls? A liar or not? //
    The status of the person who calls a liar, a liar, especially with explanation and evidence, is on a positive footing. Speaking the truth, in this context, seems the positive thing to do.

  435. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //So you disagree with demsci? Tsk, tsk, even as infidels you dont unite and still inconsistent.//
    I disagree with his/her words, not his/her intent :-). I said his/her words are a little off. Tsk tsk. And yes I may have completely opposite standings to his/her opinions on many things. That doesn't mean inconsistency vis a vis the points where we have mutual interest and resolve. You are not winning this game this way 🙂

  436. Demsci says:

    I am trying to think positively and set positive goals, goals about what we do want, instead of goals about what we do not want. Many, many people many, many times express regret at the death of other people. So, what is it that they do want instead of the death of people?

    It cannot be eternal life for all people, because we know all of us must die. So it can only be some kind of PREMATURE death that people regret. (Of course, it also can be some kind of too painful death, but for now I am focusing on death itself).

    And since we know we do not desire to live eternally, and since at this time about half a million humans are 100 years, but people reaching 110 are few and far between, I for now dare put an artificial border between living healthy and happy and starting to prepare for (painless) death at 100 years.

    Meaning; If people do live to 100 years, we can rejoice instead of mourn at their deaths, we no longer have to regret it, provided it is as painless as possible.

    Later, when medical science improves more, we can set higher limits. For now we may consider that in a world with many people with very long lives, needing scarce resources to sustain them, that sustenance might crowd out good care for babies. And there may be or come a point of choice between artificially endlessly lengthening lives and caring for babies.

  437. But whats the status of the person who calls? A liar or not?

  438. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I want to check your source, whether same like mine. If different, then ill give mine.//
    You can anyway start with your source :-). You never do, remember that thread about al Umdah et al?

    //If want to remove grass, better pull the root than cutting it//
    Whether you cut or pull out the grass proper care has to be taken of the soil after the job is done.

    //Foolish? See..ur using negative vocabulary again//
    I am calling a foolish proposition foolish with explanation. It is not negative thinking, again. It could have been negative had I not given an explanation. Finding out the foolishness of an illogical proposition is a positive thing to do. It benefits the reader of the thread and might as well, with little deliberations perhaps, benefit you too 🙂

  439. So you disagree with demsci? Tsk, tsk, even as infidels you dont unite and still inconsistent.

  440. I want to check your source, whether same like mine. If different, then ill give mine. Then u never get wrong anymore. If want to remove grass, better pull the root than cutting it ^^

    Foolish? See..ur using negative vocabulary again….:'

  441. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //See…negative thinking again? //
    Calling a liar a liar is a positive thing to do.

  442. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Seeking alternative to islam is like seeking alive person on earth now with age 1000 years old. Find him, and ask.//
    The Islamic teachings and most of its followers have a thinking that is just as archaic. I think Demsci's wordings are a little off. You don't seek 'alternative' to poison, but a remedy, an anti-dote against it.

  443. See…negative thinking again?

  444. Seeking alternative to islam is like seeking alive person on earth now with age 1000 years old. Find him, and ask.

  445. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Im glad u didnt lie for admitting ur negative thinking//
    Liar. I am glad you proved again what a great liar you are.

  446. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Why? I have to make sure where you read for tabayyun. //
    You can refer to my comment and references and say where exactly it is wrong. That is better and faster than making any assumption about where I am educated (I may even be self taught). If I am wrong somewhere you can always counter it with a counter-evidence.

    ////Well accusing a virgin woman as a prostitute is bad//
    Yes it is. //
    Foolish. YOU referred to a virgin woman, I don't know who, YOU talked about an accuser, I don't know who, accusing that the virgin is a prostitute, AND YOU asserted that it is bad. I am just confirming your assertion. At times you are hopeless with your comprehension skills!!! No wonder you are unable to see the evils in Islam.

  447. What i dont understand is the 100 years thing. Are you obsessed to live 100 years?

  448. Demsci says:

    I am seeking to formulate better alternatives to Islam instead of just seeking to criticize Islam. Criticizing Islam is easy, just and right, and it can be augmented by actually formulating as many better alternatives to Islam as possible.

    When we can know the drawbacks of Islam for people, living long (100 years?) happy, healthy lives, we can also try to formulate what it is what good we do want for the highest possible percentage of humans, instead of Islam.

    Where the principles of Democracy and Science contradict the principles of Islam, there I find the better alternatives to Islam in Democracy and Science.

  449. Im glad u didnt lie for admitting ur negative thinking ^^

  450. Why? I have to make sure where you read for tabayyun.
    Here, 
    cchuckc76p · 46 minutes ago
    @narcole1919721 
    //Well accusing a virgin woman as a prostitute is bad// 
    Yes it is.
     

  451. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Yes, thank god you admitted. Good//
    I am not a muslim. And I am not in the habit of lying for silly nothings.

  452. Demsci says:

    You said: Islam is the best. I say there are some pretty good alternatives to Islam that are better.

    I explained that my positive goal is that as high a percentage of humans as possible lives to become 100 years old, whilst happy and healthy. And I say our modern democratic society helped by science is a much better alternative to Islam, at least many of it's restricting teachings.

  453. Yes, thank god you admitted. Good ^^

  454. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //It was you who wrote the word assume//
    Yes, I did, so? I said "If YOU assume…", I was referring to your assumption not mine

  455. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //By reading Quran, Shahi Hadiths, Tafsir and Sira where, sir?//
    The information it contains isn't location dependent.

    //Oh you did say yes it is.//
    Show me where. You raised the point about somebody, I don't know who, calling a virgin a prostitute. I simply confirmed your assertion that it is bad.

  456. Lol i dont understand what ur talking about.

  457. It was you who wrote the word assume O.O

  458. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //See you're still assuming…isnt it clear? //
    It is absolutely clear what you were assuming. I have provided evidence from your comments.

  459. Demsci says:

    I could have said also; Narcole, you have lived with Islam much of your life, but we both hope you will enjoy a long life, and is Islam and only Islam for you personally the best for all of your long life? Do you not restrict yourself too much with Islam only then?

    Because I believe in stating positive goals with time attached to it, I have the idiosyncratic thought that I wish that as high a percentage of humans as possible lives to become a hundred years old, provided they want it themselves too. 

    Reaching 100 years being a great success I do not value life for people above 100 as much as that of people under 100 years. And if there exists the dilemma of having to choose which lives to save, worldwide, I choose saving lives of people under 100 years over those of people over 100 years of age.

    And I think that above 100 it is time for a person to prepare for death, making room for babies. But I stress deeply that that is only my opinion and I want everybody to have free choice in this and I would never countenance any killing or deliberate stopping of caring. I would just oppose artificial lengthening of life indefinitely, after 100 years.

    And as it stands I am not sure about the afterlife. Though I hope it and reincarnation exist. But I think we should count on it and focus on this life and the lives of all humans. I am sorry that, as yet, I am not thinking much of saving and improving the lives of animals as yet, and I am only against cruelty of animals.

    Now is Islam the best for letting as high a percentage of willing people as possible to live  healthy happy lives of 100 years?

  460. By reading Quran, Shahi Hadiths, Tafsir and Sira where, sir? Oh you did say yes it is. 

  461. See you're still assuming…isnt it clear?

  462. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //How did you know what he did?//
    By reading Quran, Shahi Hadiths, Tafsir and Sira.

    //How did you know what the virgin woman did? //
    I didn't say anything about any virgin woman.

  463. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //See…your assuming me with negative thinking again? //
    Read again. I am assuming that you assumed me with negativity and I have produced your own comments as evidence.

  464. See…your assuming me with negative thinking again?

  465. How did you know what he did? How did you know what the virgin woman did?

  466. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //So you assume me with negative thinking? //
    I didn't say "I assume..", I said "If you assume…", because you did assume negative thinking with me. Evidence, your own comment: "I only like talking decently for good habit" and "Why do you have many negative vocabularies, sir?" it is not my problem if you start making some assumptions, but there is no harm in pointing that to you:-)

  467. Is your english better than your native language, sir? 

  468. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Well accusing a virgin woman as a prostitute is bad//
    Yes it is. That doesn't correct what Muhammad did, does it?

  469. Well accusing a virgin woman as a prostitute is bad. And leading others to punish the virgin woman is worse. And saying that, not informing people that shes a prostitute is bad, is bad, even much worse.

  470. So you assume me with negative thinking?

  471. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Oh….my english. How about we change language to talk more efficiently?//
    i can understand if you are not comfortable about your English. But if you can post 2500 odd comments using English, you can as well continue using it for further discourse:-). With respect to this forum, knowing how global the user base is, I think English will be the most efficient and convenient language to express your feelings about Quranic verses.

  472. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //I only said, a smile could mean many. //
    I did say, "If you assume…".

  473. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Before informing people about a bad thing, we have to make sure whether the bad thing is actually fitnah or not. Informing fitnah is worse, sir. //
    Raping women is bad, pedophilia and child marriages are bad, killing unarmed war prisoners is bad, killing children is bad, looting carvans is bad etc. Especially judging what happened historically starting with the Islamin conquests of the Arabic peninsular. Muhammad did all these, and Quran authorises all these. I am sure, therefore that it is bad. Not informing people about that, especially muslims like you, is bad.

  474. Before informing people about a bad thing, we have to make sure whether the bad thing is actually fitnah or not. Informing fitnah is worse, sir.

  475. Please dont have negative thinking. I only said, a smile could mean many. But you went to negative conclution again, sir. Before changing people, we have to start changing from own self and be good model.

  476. Oh….my english. How about we change language to talk more efficiently? ^^

  477. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //A smile could mean many sir. I only like talking decently for good habit//
    If you assume that my smiling was indecent or negative then blame your Islamic leanings for that.

    //Our god said islam is good, even best. //
    That is a manufactured God, that is Muhammad's alter ego, about whom Aisha said that It rushes to generate verses that will help Muhammad out of tight situations :-). If Muhammad says that following Muhammad is good then what is the credit in that religion?

    //Talking bad is bad, sir.//
    Not informing people about a bad thing is worse madam 🙂

  478. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Then you are blaming yourself//
    You have a very poor comprehension of semantics. Read back the comments on this thread.

  479. Our god said islam is good, even best. Talking bad is bad, sir.

  480. A smile could mean many sir. I only like talking decently for good habit ^^ 

  481. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Fail? Hurt? Why do you have many negative vocabularies, sir? //
    That is because Islam is a negative philosophy and the negative of negative is positive :-).

    //Lets start positive thinking//
    I did say, I bear it smilingly 🙂

  482. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //The point is, i know Our God's name, you dont//
    Then you missed the point. The point is the name Allah isn't a name but a contraction of Al-Ilah, literally The God. And it itself is a cognate of El the Ugaritic creator diety. It is only the muslims who were driven to believe that its a proper name of God.
    So as soon as you claim you know the name of our God, you prove your ignorance. Further proof is your own claim that "God is independent", it doesn't logically require a name for itself just as it needs no gender differentiability :-).

  483. Fail? Hurt? Why do you have many negative vocabularies, sir? Its not good. Lets start positive thinking ^^

  484. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Gender? Tsk tsk. Gender means sex, sir. Why do you think god needs sex?//
    You fail :-). It hurts when the joke is lost on the intended recipient, but I bear it smilingly.

  485. Then you are blaming yourself 🙂

  486. The point is, i know Our God's name, you dont ^^

  487. Gender? Tsk tsk. Gender means sex, sir. Why do you think god needs sex? Tsk tsk. God is independent 🙂

  488. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //i know His name, you dont//
    You seem to know 'His' gender too!! :-). By saying this you have proved that you worship a false God.

    //Good to know u know ur god and my god same//
    Off course for everybody the God will be same. The crucial point here is the entity that you call your God, Allah, doesn't qualify to be the all merciful, benevolent or even all powerful God.

    //Then do you blame yourself too? //
    Only if I do something that is wrong, inhuman, falsehood. Opposing Islam is none of this, in fact it is a virtue to open the eyes of fellow human being about the inconsistencies of Islam and the nuisance it has been historically.

  489. Then do you blame yourself too?

  490. Good to know u know ur god and my god same. ^^ i know His name, you dont x)

  491. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Hows your family? Hows ur health? You didnt celebrate xmas right? Cos u didnt know whos ur god?//
    Fine. Fine. Wrong. My god is also your God :-). But the entity you call your God doesn't qualify.

    //Im not blaming u. Maybe ur raised to blame anything. //
    I am raised to blame anything that is wrong, cruel, inhuman 🙂

  492. Im not blaming u. Maybe ur raised to blame anything. 

  493. Hows your family? Hows ur health? You didnt celebrate xmas right? Cos u didnt know whos ur god?

  494. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    // *remembers someone like u but then her friend told that shes actually nice person, she talks harsh cos raised that way by her parents, cant blame her*//
    I count many like you and blame Islam for the way they are:-).

  495. cchuckc says:

    @narcole1919721
    //Allah is perfect.//
    Allah is a perfect misogynist, ruthless criminal 🙂

  496. Sakat says:

    Allah is hopeless ha ha ha………………..!!!!!.

  497. 🙂 *remembers someone like u but then her friend told that shes actually nice person, she talks harsh cos raised that way by her parents, cant blame her*

  498. Sakat says:

    There is another term ,'Excellent' ,and Islam is not that ha ha ha.

  499. Demsci says:

    "Quran (3:56) – "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." "

    It is part of the Muslims who REJECT parts of Democracy and parts of what Science teaches, clinging to Islamic teachings in contradiction with them. Muslims also REJECT Essential Christian doctrine. Muslims are infidels, unbelievers and ignorants in all those alternatives to parts of Islam.

    But the most important guiding texts of the democratic system (it's principles, constitutions and laws) and science, and it's methods, to whom Muslims are the "rejecters", "infidels", "unbelievers", "ignorants', "in contradiction".

    NEVER threathen Muslims or followers of other religions with "terrible-agony-punishment" in this life or the next. And they NEVER say "listen not to the unbelievers and strive against them with the utmost strenuousness" as the Quran does.

    I want Muslims to understand and feel how it is they (or so many of them) who are:

    The Rejecters, Contradicters, Unbelievers, Ignorants, enemies, killers or blockaders of so much that came from other humans (just as Islam came from humans, who falsely claimed to speak for God) AFTER 632 AD, when Mohammed died.

  500. Demsci says:

    Slave of Prophet:

    The words of the Quran are according to us just MANMADE. And so you are taking a big gamble believing them.

    For your ego; our message is: You are promised a heaven that is non-existent, or totally different from what you think, that promise is almost certainly almost totally VOID and you gamble against very high odds. And out there in this wonderful, complex world, there is so much that is MORE TRUE than Islam, and making humans happier in this physical life.

    For your political, societal desires, non-egoistic, but altruistic; mankind, in 1400 years, and with all it's genius, has developed so much better alternatives to Islam, making humans so much happier in so many bigger percentages of mankind, enjoying longer lives, on average than ever before (in our countries 93 % of humans live to reach 75 years of age).

  501. Demsci says:

    Slave of Prophet,

    Stupid and Genius in relation to what? If the most worthy purposes for humans and mankind are what?

    Finding out the highest truth we humans can find? And happiness for humans in a long and prosperous life for as high a percentage of mankind as possible?

    Perhaps as high as possible a proportion of humans who during a long life, of, say, 100 years, by and large adhere to the Golden Rule?

  502. Islam is the best. Nothing is better than the best.

  503. slaveofprophet says:

    @Agracean & Others
    ________do you know what is the difference between stupidity and genius___

    Yes I know, Stupid are 
    Quran (3:56) – "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
    Quran (9:30) – "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

    And Genius are
    Quran (9:88) – "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."
    Quran (25:52) – "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness…"
    Muslim (1:149) – "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…"

  504. Supriya says:

    Congress Party (of Soniya Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi ) and their Alliance parties are begging votes from muslims. They will do everything to make muslims happy . It is India's bad luck of having UPA government. Two months before Maharashtra's government announced hundreds of Crores for upliftment of Madarsa. Central Home Minister Mr. Shinde called Saffron terrorist to pro-Hindutva people. Cogress-free India should be aim of every nationalist Indian.
    Narendr Modi is the only person who can elminate Congress from grass root. So vote for Narendr Modi or BJP .[ I am not activist of any Political party ]

  505. supriya says:

    Namaste Dr. Ali Sina
    I know that you are deeply in quest for spiritual knowledge to know who you are? what is your aim? Sir ,I have suggested you to know about Sri Sri Ravishankar of Art of Living Foundation. I am agree with your opinion that Sri Sri never knows about Mohammad because Indian Muslims guided him about Islam and Mohammad.And he can't understand Arabic language to read Quran.
    Sir you are always ready to gain knowledge. I want to help you in your spiritual quest. I would like to suggest you refer to the site http://www.brahmakumaris.com / http://www.bkswu.com / http://www.just-a-minute.org / http://www.bkpublications.com You can access TV Channel "Peace of Mind TV".
    Brahmakumaris is a unique university and well known spiritual value based educational institution which has gained global acceptance and unique international recognition. It works as special consultative status with United Nations. Awakening with Brahmakumaris is most viewed show not only in India but also abroad to fullfill their spiritual quest and to get solutions of their daily problems . Foreign truthseekers visit Brahmakumaris University everyday in thousands of number. I wish it will help you in spiritual progress because you have said that you ant to become a prophet. You can learn Rajyoga meditation and seek inner peace[ because many fanatic commentators use vulgar words .It may be disturbing for you. Sir, I only wish you to be successful and enlighten others life by awakening them. ]
    Though I know your daily schedule is busy, I am waiting for you comment after getting you the access to Brahmakumaris website.

  506. Agracean says:

    Mr Sakat, whether you like it or not, believe it or not, the absolute truth is that God really does exist. Even our dear Ms Dr Ali Sina has finally confessed the truth that God exists. Soon, it'll be your turn. Today is Christmas eve and I like to wish you a very happy, merry and blessed Christmas. Cheers. 🙂

  507. Phoenix says:

    I disagree with Christina in the video that Jesus is the only way.Perhaps Jesus is the representaion of Love to her.So in that sense,yes, Love (Jesus) is the only way,the truth and life.In many of these NDE reports there are cultural idiosyncracies but they're trivial.Its easy to deduce from the worldwide common experiences what the NDEs actually represent.

  508. Phoenix says:

    According to many writers, in such a situation the advantage lies with the group that favors the goal over the group that abhors the goal, because BOTH groups think about and imagine the goal and both insert deep emotion-power into them."

    Ultimately the physical goal of the muslim is death and destruction to his enemies…"jihad is the greatest deed".The Islamic brothel is his consequence/reward of achieving his goal.
    Now the muslim does not understand the laws of the universe and thinks it operates as Muhammad said.So it is our duty to remind them or teach them how the Universe works and what the actual consequences are for their ideology.
    Here's an excellent Abraham Hicks seminar on "What about evil people"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KnWb3GdFDc

  509. Phoenix says:

    @Demsci

    I like that alternative.Compete with Islam.
    Muslims are the most disconnected from alignment with Source or All That Is.Just like their leader Muhammad,they are stuck in a juvenile emotional state where they are immune to any maturity and continue to regress.

    So we can continue to show them the truth,that Muhammad fabricated Quranic verses to suit his own proclivities and the consequences of emulating such a crminal at the expense of the rest of humanity.But equally imporatant is to show them a better alternative as you put it.That life can be heavenly,which is more a state of mind and being than a specific location.Not the Islamic brothel of course.But the realization that life is abundant and that joy and freedom is our natural state.Also to remind them that they can always return to their natural state no matter what their current situation is.

  510. Demsci says:

    We might consider saying to Muslims not so much; Islam is bad, stop it, do anything other than following Islam.

    But: Islam is good, now go for something better; for you, individuals, society, our descendants.

  511. Demsci says:

    @Phoenix.
    Note that even the words "Solution", "Solving" essentially mean that something we do NOT want "will be done away with".

    Islam may have the advantage that at the very least it is in FAVOR of something that is clear enough to it's followers. And we, Islam's opponents, we are primarily AGAINST the same goal that Muslims are FOR. According to many writers, in such a situation the advantage lies with the group that favors the goal over the group that abhors the goal, because BOTH groups think about and imagine the goal and both insert deep emotion-power into them.

    Moreover, Islam promises a glorious afterlife, where opponents of Islam often have nothing so grandiose to compete with this heaven. Although Christians do offer heaven too.

    Therefore it may look to Muslims as if opponents of Islam intend to take away from them some beautiful rewards without giving something as valuable in return.

    But fighting Islam as is done here also seems fine and impressive to me.

    In my thinking it is still fine what is done here, but it should be augmented by formulating, presenting and offering ALTERNATIVES to Islam, on it's main parts.

    So some kind of alternative to Islamic heaven (even if it is a lie) , personal advantages for ex-Muslims, more freedom and autonomy, societal democratic alternatives to Islam's totalitarian tenets.

    Also the advantage of some alternative most important guiding texts that are CHANGEABLE and made much more up to date and clearer than the immutable incomplete, obsolete, unclear, ambiguous guiding texts of Islam.

  512. Demsci says:

    @Phoenix.
    I am going out on a limb and refer to you to Esther & Jerry Hicks. They and countless other writers assure us that we should strive for goals concerning what we DO want, and NOT on goals concerning what we do NOT want.

    They maintain that human thinking is so much about imaging in the mind and they say that whatever we think about grows. And emotions are "fertilizer". This then means that even if we think about what we do NOT want, and want to prevent, with emotions of fear or hate, we still somehow give it energy and help it come true.

    So from that standpoint the solution would be to COMPETE with Islam, rather than to fight it. Or at least a combination of competing with and fighting against Islam.

  513. Sakat says:

    @ Agracean
    I am sorry to hurt you ,it was not my intentions either ,i saw you have appeared here after long break ,i just wanted to play some mischief on the eve of Chrism's ,once again i beg pardon,don't take my comments to your heart,wish u marry chrism's in advance and a prosperous new year ahead !!!god bless!!! (if he really exist)

  514. Agracean says:

    Mr Sakat, is it true that you like Justin Bieber's song 'Baby' so much that you kept addressing me as 'Baby'? Why do you care so much about my love comments to our dear Ms Dr Ali Sina here while he don't even bother about it? That's the reason why I love him so. You should learn something from him.

  515. Sakat says:

    Baby remember while putting things on board you should aware of the platform where you are blinkering ( a thinker is adored and not the plain believer ) ,the Muslims (on lookers) do not try to peep into your thoughts ( they are not prepared to think in your way or me).No i am not drunk but, i am afraid we shouldn't be dragged to 7th century by our own mistakes either .

  516. Phoenix says:

    @Sakat
    So what do you suggest we do then ?How do we fight back or do we just surrender and become dhimmis?

  517. Phoenix says:

    @slaveofprophet
    It amazes me that you'd advertise your stupidity like this on a public platform for all to see.Do you really hate yourself that much?

    You said :Quran (8:12) – "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. "

    I believe you copy pasted the entire paragraph without realizing you're undermining your efforts.On the other hand…perhaps you know what you're doing and deliberately promote evil.

  518. Anand Sagar says:

    There are so many millionaires & billionaires in the Kafir world. Why any one of them does not show interest and invest in your movie project is something that surprises me. Despite your illustrious work, are they still not convinced that Islam is evil and poses threat to survival of human kind?

  519. Agracean says:

    Mr Sakat, are you drunk? You know the fact that I love my dear Ms Dr Ali Sina very much but that doesn't mean that I have to get physical with him and have plenty of children. There's another kind of love which you are totally ignorant of and that is 'agape' love.

  520. Ali Sina says:

    Sri Sri Ravi Shankar does not know Islam. That is why he believes Muhammad was also a guru. He should not opine in matters of which he knows nothing. Muhammad was no spiritual leader but a con man charlatan like Jim Jones and David Koresh. He was a cult leader and a narcissist like Hitler and Stalin. It is a huge mistake to assume he was a prophet. So Ravi is wrong when it comes to Islam. Gandhi was also wrong in this regard. Most people don't know the truth about Islam, All that can go away in a matter of hours. If I find a backer to make my movie about Muhammad the truth will be known worldwide and Islam will be history in a matter of years. People don't have time to read hundreds of books to dig the truth. My movie will give them the gist of the life of Muhammad in only a few hours.

  521. knowTheEnemy says:

    Muslims are on the 'winning' side (not really, but that is what they see), and as long as they are on the winning side, they will fail to see that they have been defrauded by Muhammad! As you noted, politicians in India (and most other non-Muslim democracies) are openly supporting Muslims and are totally unaware that they are only making Islamic jihad more powerful.

    What is making matters worse is that educated and prosperous non-Muslims are being completely apathetic to what is going on. They just plain do not want to have to deal with anything that will interrupt their hedonistic ways.

    What options does such a situation leaves us with?

  522. Sakat says:

    Ali Sina is working hard to educate and make aware about the evil Islam to both Muslims and Infidels’, but I do not found any substantial change in the ground reality .The peculiar thing is, even though the mentality of Muslims when they adhere to Islam is of annihilation or grabbing of the property or country of non-Muslims, the non-Muslims openly encourage them in their quest . Now a days in India almost all political parties are involved in appeasing Muslims .Even though the Hindu is sufferings from Muslim atrocities ,the police do not take cognizance of his complaint .Recently in north India communal riots took place ,the entire blame was shifted upon Hindu’s for the riots .The actual reasons behind the riot was ,a Muslim man who was regularly stalking a Hindu girl .So many time he was warned by the brothers of the girl but he did not stop from embarrassing the girl .The family of the girl tried to register a case against the boy ,however the police have refused to take cognizance. One day the man started stalking the girl in front of her brother’s .Naturally the brothers chased the man to his death. Later the Muslim gangs killed the two brothers of that girl. The police have registered the case against the relatives of the girl for killing the Muslim man but refused to register a case against the killers of the brothers of that Hindu girl .I am not blaming Muslims ,but certainly Hindu’s are the culprits for suffering in the hands of Muslims,it is their own making . In a southern state of India the government has pronounced Rs 50,000 for the marriage of poor Muslim girls but not poor girls from Hindu ,imagine what will be its repercussion ,already the Muslim parents are solemnizing the marriage of their daughter at the age of 14 and 15, the new assurance will multiply Muslim population .All this is being done by politicians for votes, but they fail to realize that, in the process the power is gradually shifting in the hands of Muslims .We all know the fate of the non-Muslims in the hands of Muslims. Another state has passed law allowing Muslim girl to marry at the age of 14, when marriage age for a girl is 18 in India. Many Arabs come to marry young girls of 12 and 14 to fulfill the wish of their Prophet and Muslims are ready to solemnize even their 6 year old daughter to a wealthy old Arab. Even the home minister of India went one step further saying, innocent Muslim terrorist should not be kept in Jails .Look at these peoples hypocrisy ,for the sake of power they can even close their eyes to the impending danger. It is not over ,a new law is in progress called communal violence bill, as per this law any Muslim can file a case against the Hindu ,the burden of proving innocence shifts on the accused ,even the complainant can remain stay anonymous ,now tell me if these kinds of encouragement a Muslim is enjoying ,how can Sina expect a Muslim will leave Islam.

  523. Sakat says:

    Baby make some home work first before u out burst here ,don't live the hypothetical life in your mind ,thinking the company of Mr Sina all the while ,he is already lost ,don't queue behind him .Life is uncertain but death is certain ,don't configure your self's to the bizarre thinking of having life with your MS and having plenty of children ,but before that make sure they live their life independently of any conditioning . You are embodiment of stupidity and i don't think Mr Sina is genius either .Even if the sun illuminates the earth for 1000 more years ,i don't think Islam will vanish that is definite.

  524. Sakat says:

    @Ali Sina
    God bless you Mr Sina (if he exist) , i feel now there is no principles of natural law has been followed in your site , don't worry i will not be there to disturb u any more.

  525. cchuckc says:

    @slaveofprophet
    //Prophet Muhammad was a spiritual leader why does not he follow him?//
    He doesn't say whether he was a 'true' spiritual leader or not :-). If he says Mo was a spiritual leader then it is just his magnanimity.

    //Why does not he believe Islam is only true religion and Quran is only true divine book as preached by Prophet Muhammad also//
    Simply because he knows that Islam is a filthy religion and Quran is a flawed book of hatred and dirt.

  526. supriya says:

    You cursed Dr. Sina when he called Sri Sri Ravishankar as an enlightened man. I can understand your hatredness towards Indians. We also believe in God. But Indian spirituality defines God as Consciousness having aspects as loving, all-knowing ,joy which is completely different in Islam. Every living form is divine because it is born from the most divine (God).
    Art of living Foundation is founded by Sri Sri Ravishankar has regional centres in 150 countries including Islamic countries has touched lives of 370 million people including Muslims. The foundation is working in special consultative status with United Nations Economics and Social Council of UN.
    Sri Sri's philosophy of peace is,"Unless we have a stress-free mind and violence- free society ,we can't achieve world peace". Breathing techniques, Meditation, Yoga (Sudarshan kriya) are taught in Foundation.
    Muslim scholars in India, Iran , Iraq have praised the work of Sri Sri Ravishankar.
    I have explained you because you have called Sri Sri Ravishankar as stupid. Now compare who is stupid Sri Sri Ravishankar or slave of prophet ?
    I think you are most depressed person on the Earth because you always comment bitterly and hatefully. These are signs of madness. I suggest you to join basic course of Art of living in your near center.
    Your Allah will cast terror into hearts of non-believers. But our God loves you either you believe in Him or not. This is basic difference between Sanatan Dharma and Islam.
    Refer http://www.artofliving.org to know about Art of Living Foundation and it's social services globally. [After knowing, you will come to know that laughing on others is not characteristic of genuineness. ] Don't dare to call stupid to any Indian spiritual Master(Guru). You don't deserve it. You only deserve to make violence, to marry 4 girls, to beat them, to divorce wife and marry another girl(may be minor) , to ignore Science and healthy life, to convert forcefully by murdering men and raping women. You are born to kill in the name of God and to get killed as suicide bomber. Shame on your barbaric life .

  527. slaveofprophet says:

    @Ali Sina
    Sri Sri Ravi Shankar is a hypocrite if he believes Prophet Muhammad was a spiritual leader why does not he follow him? Why does not he believe Islam is only true religion and Quran is only true divine book as preached by Prophet Muhammad also. Why does not he accept Islam? Why does not he do 5 times Namaj? Why is he promoting non-believers culture?

  528. Ali Sina says:

    You are only a slave of a sociopath. If you had any brains you’d realize that Muslims are the least enlightened creatures on earth. Any person who thinks those evil verses you quoted are from God must be a very deluded person. One who promotes peace is enlightened; his religion is irrelevant. One who promotes hate is not. I read some of Ravi Shankar’s writings and I see he promotes peace. But he is wrong when he says Muhammad was also a spiritual teacher. That is and error that I’d be glad to clarify to him if I meet him one day. It does not seem that he knows much about Islam.

  529. Agracean says:

    Mr slaveofprophet, do you know what is the difference between stupidity and genius? The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. I think that you really do need my dear Ms Dr Ali Sina's help out of this stupid slavery.

  530. Nizamuddin Sheikh says:

    @Slaveofprophet

    Really I could not stop my laugh on the stupidity of True Muslims. "Quran (3:56) – "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 
    Quran (8:12) – "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"  No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle."  you have quoted these verse from Quran but is it true? Is Allah or only Imagine of Mu-hum-mad? Because in Quran 51:49 Wamin kulli shay-in khalaqna zawjayni laAAallakum tathakkaroona      And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. 
    But again read Quran 37:150 Am khalaqna almala-ikata inathan wahum shahidoona  Or that We created the angels female, and they are witnesses (thereto) Quran 43:19 WajaAAaloo almala-ikata allatheena hum AAibadu alrrahmani inathan ashahidoo khalqahum satuktabu shahadatuhum wayus-aloona
    And they make into females angels who themselves serve Allah. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account!
    Quran 53:27 Inna allatheena la yu/minoona bial-akhirati layusammoona almala-ikata tasmiyata al-ontha
    Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
    Now you clear us where is the pair of these angels?  So first be come in the light not live in the era of 7th century of Arab. 

  531. slaveofprophet says:

    @Ali Sina
    I laugh on your stupidity you call a non-believer in prophet & Allah enlightened man. For me the man who has not faith in Allah and prophet is the most stupid man. Allah also said  in holy Quran
    Quran (3:56) – "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
    Quran (8:12) – "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"  No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

  532. Ali Sina says:

    Thank you Supriya,

    I actually read some of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's words and he seems to me an enlightened man that wants to promote peace and understanding. I wish him success. At the same time I believe in regards to Islam we need to tell the truth and truth is not very pretty in this case.

  533. supriya says:

    Namaste (Divine within me bows to the Divine within you ) Dr. Ali Sina
    I think you are aware of Indian(Sanatan Dharma) spirituality . Everything is evolved from consciousness(Param atma). Every soul (Aatma) is potentially divine because it is born from God(Super soul) . The goal of every soul is self awareness and finally union with God. I think Dr. you are on right path to Enlightenment(Moksha) . I would suggest you to join Art of living Foundation of Sri Sri Ravishankar (www.artofliving.com) to enhance your wisdom.

  534. aminthemystic says:

    You are confused son . . .

    " Maruf is just a person who posts one reply after another. Same as aminriadh. "

    When you cannot ANSWER – you post nonsense.

    Same as Sina.

    Our last email exchange was that I had tell him I was NOT interested in exchanging insults with him.

    See here for example:
    http://exposingsina.wordpress.com/

    Sina is a joke. Look at this little work. . .

    Have you got an answer?

    Nope – he sure hasn't.

    – – –

    I have traded SEVERAL comment streams with Sina.

    He ends up looking the worst.

    In those – you cannot answer.

    – – –

    But you seem to have personal fixation with "Maruf".

    – – –

    This lie is like this:
    http://alisina.org/blog/2012/12/22/imam-husseins-

    Look I reduced Sina to lying about me.

    – – –

    You are lying too:

    "Whatever answer you give him, he will only post his original challenge. "

    Else prove the above with EXAMPLES.

    In the meantime. . ..

    You are liar.

    I am CALLING you out on it.

  535. Rembrandt_gg says:

    Maruf is just a person who posts one reply after another. Same as aminriadh.

    Whatever answer you give him, he will only post his original challenge.

    Those of you who think he has a genuine question, kindly check out Dr Sina's article in this same site regarding "Pascal's Wager". Maruf's argument will be, "If I believe in god and there is not god, I don't loose anything, but if I don't believe in god and god exists, I may go to hell. Therefore its better to believe in god especially Islam, because Islam says its the final path given to mankind etc." For which Dr Sina replied "God described by Mohammad in Quran is his own sock puppet and not an all knowing, omnipotent, omniscient being as is generally known." Now the guy keeps repeating his original question. He wouldn't want an answer. He only wants to preach Islam.

    Just for your information… http://alisina.org/blog/2011/07/28/what-if-god-ex

  536. A human Being says:

    Hi Maruf or all those people who want to know the limit or what is right or wrong. If one needs to know what is right or wrong, he / she has to read many books (definitely not madrasa), do research and spread the truth to others. Dont be a frog in one religion and believe allah is right. If we are human being we have brain to do research and accept which is truth. Only animals cant use brains, just like those who only follow wrong path in the name of religion. God can be obtained by the path of love. Love everybody. God is there everywhere. We create god just like a baby creates a mother. The way we like to see our god, we create that. No idol represents a god or god cant be limited to an idol. Dont force others to follow you or your religion. Let people understand everything and join.

  537. aminriadh says:

    Poor poor poor you . . . how humiliating. Wind has GONE from your sail . . . any more lies?

    Ah . . . . I pity you – I feel so sorry for you.

  538. Julia says:

    Ali Sina said:
    "If good people remain pacifist, evil people will win. It is foolish to say we don’t want to use force because we will be like them (the bad guys). This is extremely foolish. Violence must be stopped with force."
    This man is 100% right!!
    If HITLER NAZI-Germany or Fascistic JAPAN were not DESTROYED BY FORCE we would have no freedom at all today. WE must learn from the past. Freedom must be defended by FORCE AGAIN if that is what it needs. And now we see the same happening AGAIN with the EVIL CULT of Islam !!
    FREEDOM IS NOT FOR FREE !!!

  539. Julia says:

    "So they ( ALL MUSLIMS) must either denounce Islam, hate and violence and integrate or go back to where they or their fathers came ".
    I CAN'T AGREE MORE !!

  540. Orchideanera says:

    I love you I adore you I admire you immensely my dear Ali Sina…

  541. everin says:

    Obama, Oh Poor Obama ! The US economy was in a bankruptcy state after the previous white presidents had giving lots of money to prop up certain regimes n conducted many unnecessary, back-breaking (for the treasury) wars. Then they elected a black man to fix up the broken economy. At least he did not wage any war n had shown great restraint with Iran, knowing the dire consequences. If Iran is attacked, It will destroy all the saudi oil fields out of spite to the US n the world have to trudge along with little oil. World businesses will be in shambles.

  542. Agracean says:

    Hi Justus, are you a Christian, Mormon or Atheist. Please tell me if you think that Joseph Smith is a false prophet like Muhammad bin Abdullah and that Mormonism is a cult?

  543. Juste says:

    Grace,
    I don’t think any subject is taboo. I’m not that kinda person. I just thought that it was uncalled for. That’s all.

  544. Agracean says:

    Hi Juste, thanks for the reminder of the 'scrotum sack' logic. Yes, I agree with you that I shouldn't ask John K if he is a tiny little sperm swimming in Dr Ali Sina's scrotum. Many men here like you will misunderstood the meaning and thought that I 'fire' at him. Please pardon me for cracking such a harmless joke. I've forgotten the fact that not many men here can take it too because a lady like me has touched on the subject of their male reproductive organs which is a taboo. No wonder you start to 'fire' at me. 🙂

  545. Juste says:

    Hi Grace,
    I was referring to that “scrotum sack” logic that you were using, that is all. If you want people to start hearing you, you might want to shove these kinds of tones aside.
    You know what they say, “no one fires unless fired upon”.

  546. Agracean says:

    Hi Juste, how in the world can I stay cool and act cool when my dear friend, John K is heading for the wrong direction in life? That's not cool at all. If I refrain from sharing the truth with John K, that's really selfish of me and it's against the Golden Rule. Isn't this the same reason why my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina, decided to spend his entire life time on planet earth, trying and working real hard to convince and save those braindead zombies from a pack of lies? Am I really speaking in a condescending manner? Well, this idea never hit my mind at all. I love my dear friend, John K, more than your accusations against me. Cheers.

  547. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, as a friend of Jesus Christ, I'm telling you the truth that Jesus Christ never ever teach any of His disciples or followers to baptize in proxy for the dead. Mind you, Jesus is greater than the apostle Paul and even Joseph Smith! Why don't you trust Jesus Christ?

  548. Agracean says:

    John K, I tried many times but can't access Freedom Bulwark as there's some problem with my password. Frankly, I've never thought of putting you down with my truthful comments because you are my friend. I'm just upholding the truth about Jesus Christ, my Lord and my friend. If I don't tell the truth about Jesus Christ, I'm no difference from Joseph Smith!

  549. Agracean says:

    As long as my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina is still an Atheist, that shows that he has not come to the ultimate realization of the ultimate truth yet and that means that I'll have to hug him tight like a Kaola bear till he surrender to the Way(Dao), the Truth and the Life because I love him so. 🙂

  550. John K says:

    Not going to happen.

  551. John K says:

    Thanks Juste.

  552. John K says:

    "how far do you think that I should go and reach out to him before he took his last breath and ensure that Jesus is his guide before he enters into eternity?"

    You've already done your part. It's up to him now.

  553. Juste says:

    Grace,

    Your speaking in a condascending manner. That is not cool, Grace.

    Not cool at all. Try refraining it.

  554. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, must you wait until you meet our Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven, then you will believe that all the above Bible verses are true and that Joseph Smith's teachings about baptism for the dead is nonsense?

  555. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, may God open your spiritual eyes to see and know and understand Jesus's teachings and words.

  556. John K says:

    Grace, I don't know how many times I have tried to tell you that I am not here to defend my beliefs from your criticisms. If you want to send me a private message in Freedom Bulwark with your email address, I will be glad to send you a book that answers some, but not all, of your issues. Don't expect me to defend it though. I'm really not interested in debating this with you.

  557. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, please rest assure that you won't meet Joseph Smith in Heaven for sure because Joseph Smith was a false prophet and it's the same with Muhammad bin Abdullah, that prophet of lies. Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    I believe in miracles, I've seen a soul set free. Miraculous, the change in one, redeemed through Calvary. I've seen the lily push its way, up through the stubborn sod and I believe in miracles, for I believe in God. Amen. Only Lord Jesus is able to change your convictions and not me. 🙂

    Do you know why Dr Ali Sina said that? It's simply because He haven't come to the ultimate realization that Jesus Christ is the Way(Dao), the Truth and the Life yet, so how in the world can he help others to safe shore?

  558. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, do you think that a Good Samaritan like me who loves my neighbor as myself, should just mind my own business and keep silent for good, when I know that my dear friend is blindly following a false prophet, without any doubts about him and his words at all? No, John K, you are as dear to me as Dr Ali Sina. I love you guys like myself. So, I'll try my very best to help you see the true identity of this false prophet, Joseph Smith and pray that you'll get out of this sinkhole soonest possible. How do you know that my dear Dr Ali Sina doesn't cares? Are you a tiny little sperm in one of his scrotum? 🙂

  559. Agracean says:

    Well, the problem here for me is that I'm a good samaritan whose motto in life is the Golden Rule and the fact that I do love my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina very much and I've no idea when will he expire at all? So, how far do you think that I should go and reach out to him before he took his last breath and ensure that Jesus is his guide before he enters into eternity?

  560. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, Joseph Smith said that God the Father had a Father and you believe in his claim? Too bad, Joseph Smith was dead and gone for centuries and return to the ground, and I can't debate with him. Come on, John, you got to think outside the mormon box and believe my words. Has Joseph Smith forgotten the truth that if the Father God had a Father, then He is not God at all because God is a self existing eternal being and if the Father God really had a Father, then the God who created the Father God is greater than the Father God. Don't you remember that Jesus said that He is the beginning and the End; He is the first and the last; He is the Alpha and Omega? God told Moses that He is the I AM that I AM, the great I AM.

    If Joseph Smith cannot understand and accept this fundamental truth about my loving Creator God, then, my dear John K, isn't it obvious that he is a false prophet and a liar like Muhammad ibn Abdullah, who invented his own Allah?

  561. John K says:

    I don't agree with your interpretation of these texts.

  562. Agracean says:

    What does Sons of God mean here? The term “sons of God” is used 3 more times in the Old Testament, in addition to Genesis 6. In all cases it denotes angelic beings. Job 1:6 “Now there was a day when the SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.”

    In short the beings of Genesis 6:1 were not human beings. Otherwise they would not be put in contrast with the daughter of men. There was and there is nothing wrong or strange for men to get married and have children. But this is not what happened in Genesis 6. What we have in Genesis 6 is that non human beings, angelic beings, sons of God – not sons of men – saw the daughter of men and desired them and furthermore they had children with them! As the Bible tells us in Genesis 6:4, the result of this union were the giants, a race of beings that God had not created nor He intended to create but were instead product of this ungodly union between angels and men. Noah was present at those days. These were “the days of Noah” and to these days I Peter 3:19 refers to.

  563. Agracean says:

    Genesis 6:1-8
    “Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the SONS OF GOD came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”

  564. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, let me prove to you that you are absolutely wrong to say that 1 Peter 3:19 is referring to spirits of dead people. Please read the following verse to substantiate my claim:

  565. John K says:

    It doesn't matter. I didn't ask for your advice or opinion on this matter. If I run across a problem that I feel I need your help with, believe me, you'll be the first to know.

  566. John K says:

    "The problem is that Joseph Smith's preachings and teachings are not the same as what Christ preached or taught."

    I disagree.

  567. John K says:

    Thanks, but I didn't come to this site or have this conversation because I am looking to get out of Mormonism.

    I also don't think Dr. Sina cares what either of us think about it based on his statements on this site.

  568. John K says:

    "why wait until you meet Jesus Christ in Heaven, then you realized that Joseph Smith is a liar?"

    Because I don't expect that to be the result of the meeting.

    "clearly show that Joseph Smith was wrong"

    Sorry. I've read the same things that you read and I think they all show he was right.

    "Since you don't accept my views and think that a Christian lady like me is not qualified to prove to you that Joseph Smith was a false prophet"

    Correct. No one will be able to change my convictions, not just ladies like you.

    I don't think Dr. Sina is interested in the task you propose. He has amply stated that he just wants people out of Islam and doesn't care what else they believe.

  569. Agracean says:

    Oh John, put yourselves in the shoes of a muslim and you'll understand my good intentions and agape love.

  570. Agracean says:

    John, it's not I don't accept anything you said here. The problem is that Joseph Smith's preachings and teachings are not the same as what Christ preached or taught. So how in the world can I follow any charlatan who claim to be a prophet of God? Didn't Christ warn us of wolf in sheep's clothing and false prophets?

  571. Agracean says:

    Though currently my dear Dr Ali Sina is still a science atheist but do you know that he does admire my beloved Lord Jesus Christ, His words and His teachings. So, if you want to know the truth if Joseph Smith was a false prophet, please drop him a line here and I believe that based on the Golden Rule, he will help you get out of Mormonism once and for all. Alternatively, if I'm terribly wrong about Joseph Smith, I believe that Dr Ali Sina will also let me know here.

  572. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, all I can only say to you is that why wait until you meet Jesus Christ in Heaven, then you realized that Joseph Smith is a liar? Your belief that Joseph Smith is preaching the truth about Christ is based only on your own reasonings and standards but Christ's words in red and the KJV Bible are benchmarks against Joseph Smith's teachings which clearly show that Joseph Smith was wrong and his teachings were contradicting to that of Christ.

    Since you don't accept my views and think that a Christian lady like me is not qualified to prove to you that Joseph Smith was a false prophet or that the evidences that I provided here are not good enough. But I know of one man here who are more qualified and more knowledgeable than me in so many areas especially cults . I strongly believe that based on his Bible knowledge and wisdom, he's able to prove to you that I'm absolutely right to say that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, just like Muhammad ibn Abdullah. This man is none other than my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina! Why do I say so?

  573. John K says:

    You overlooked my initial explanation that these were, as Peter clearly explains, spirits of dead people who died in the time of the Flood.

  574. John K says:

    "when I point out so many strange doctrines and teachings that contradicts Jesus's teachings?"

    I have not found any such things at all.

    "Why fool yourself any further with lies? "

    This is a personal insult and disrespect directed at me.

  575. John K says:

    I don't see the point because you will not accept anything I say.

  576. John K says:

    No. I am not saying that about the Bible. I'm trying to show how it feels when you insult things that are precious to people.

    I believe JS is preaching the truth about Christ. You do not. Please do not impose your views on me.

    I am really more offended about you insulting me than about insulting my beliefs.

    By the way, you have not exposed anything. You have only asserted your opinions.

  577. John K says:

    Well, it's hard to imagine what they expect. Maybe they expect nothing after death. Whatever the belief, a continuation of life in the Spirit World as described in the Bible will probably be startling. Actually, scientists have started to analyze near-death experiences, of which the majority fall into two categories. Of these, the minority is of seeing a cosmos-like geometric form, and the majority is the classic tunnel of light, which when the experience is long enough leads to being embraced by a Christ-like figure, and longer ones go onto meeting deceased family members and descriptions of heaven as a place beyond earthly beauty. I guess atheists would dismiss it as brain discharge.

  578. John K says:

    The difference is that if he was drowning in the ocean, he wouldn't say he didn't want your help. He is an adult capable of managing his own life, and he has elected not to pursue your course.

  579. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, with regard to 1 Peter 3:18-20, I think that you've misinterpreted the meaning of it. Do you know that men are never spoken of in Scripture as "spirits"? Man has a spirit, but he is not "a spirit", for a spirit hath not flesh and bones". In this life man has "flesh and blood", a "natural" (or psychical) body. At death this spirit "returns to God Who gave it" (Ps. 31:5. Eccles. 12:7. Luke 23:46. Acts 7:59). In resurrection "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him" (1Cor. 15:38). This is no longer a "natural" (or psychical) body, but a "spiritual body" (1Cor. 15:44). Do you know that angels are "spirits"? (Heb. 1:7, 14). 2 Pet. 2:4 we read of "the angels that sinned"; and in 1 Pet. 3:19, 20 of spirits "which sometime were disobedient … in the days of Noah". In 2 Pet. 2:4 we are further told that the fallen angels are reserved unto judgment, and delivered into chains (i.e. bondage or "prison").

  580. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, am I disrespecting Joseph Smith or you at all when I point out so many strange doctrines and teachings that contradicts Jesus's teachings? Now, tell me, is Dr Ali Sina, you or me disrespecting Muhammad bin Abdullah for exposing all the lies found in the Quran and all his evil practices and wrong teachings? Should we respect a false prophet for deceiving millions of gullible fools and not respecting the Author of the Golden Rule, Lord Jesus Christ, and uphold the legacy He left behind? Why fool yourself any further with lies? My agape love for you and Dr Ali Sina supercedes all the bad thoughts you bore towards me. 🙂

  581. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, how can you be through with my 'insults' when you did not explain to me if it's true that Joseph Smith did preached that Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation and that humans are co-eternal with God and have the potential to become gods themselves where did he derived this information from? Did Jesus Christ ever preach that we all have the potential to become gods? Please explain.

  582. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, please don't be so negative. Why should I insult Joseph Smith if he was preaching the truth about Jesus Christ? You call this insult when I exposed all his wrong teachings and wrong belief? Do you think that Dr Ali Sina is insulting Muhammad bin Abdullah all this while or saving lives from eternal destruction?

    Did I condemn everyone who doesn't read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek? No, I love to read KJV Bible too. What you deemed as inconsistencies and lies in the Bible might not be so. I felt that as a sister in Christ who love you as I love myself, I will look beyond all kinds of wrong accusations that have been directed against me. It's because of the Golden Rule that I go and do accordingly.

  583. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, what are you talking about? You sound as though you are my loving Creator God! How can you communicate with a dead man on the other side? What do you mean that death isn't what they expected it to be?

  584. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, have you seriously consider my above question? How far will you go, to reach out to save your loved ones and even, my dear Dr Ali Sina? Let's imagine that Dr Ali Sina, the man that I love and admire most, fall into the raging sea. As a good Samaritan who always uphold the Golden Rule, will you be so cruel as to leave him struggling alone in the icy cold water, even though he constantly rejected your hands to help him to the safe shore, due to his obstinancy and unbelief? No, I believe that you will not leave him alone to perish in the deep blue sea but that you will stay by his side till he finally humbled himself and reached out his hands to you and be saved.

  585. John K says:

    I'm through with this discussion. I'm not interested in this type of disrespect.

  586. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, I knew that you can't agree with me on everything that I said because you are in the self denial mode, just like Dr Ali Sina, when he first discovered that Islam was a pact of lies and that Muhammad was a liar. It's useless to continue to deceive yourself with lies and more lies concorted by Joseph Smith because lies could not withstand the test of time and eternity. The light has come and darkness comprehended it not. Why not turn to Jesus Christ and follow His absolutely good and wise teachings? Joseph Smith can't save you but I know that Jesus Christ is near to all those who call upon His name, in Spirit and in truth. You can't worship the true living God with all sorts of lies concorted by Joseph Smith and Muhammad bin Abdullah, for Jesus Christ has said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

  587. John K says:

    He has to accept it on the other side too. No one can be forced to believe. On the other side they will have the advantage that death isn't what they expected it to be.

  588. John K says:

    I'm through with your insults Grace.

  589. John K says:

    Sorry. Joseph Smith doesn't have any fake manuals.

    So you condemn everyone who doesn't read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek?

    "You've wasted 35 long years of your lifetime, believing in a false prophet and his lies than our beloved Lord Jesus Christ's words and teachings and sadly, you're still strongly defending Joseph Smith's wrong disposition and teachings."

    If you don't stop these insults, I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

    "You keep on defending that Jesus Christ was a true God and never admit that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and lies."

    How does that feel? Now reflect on the Golden Rule and go and do accordingly.

  590. John K says:

    You have to have the communications and social skills to recognize when you have reached the limits of courtesy and good manners with someone. You can tell when someone is interested. If they are interested, take the green light and go as far as you can with them. If you get a red light, respect that and stop. Jesus said that if your testimony is rejected, shake the dust off and move on. He didn't say to camp out and keep pestering them.

  591. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, if Joseph Smith feared God, he would not concort so many lies that Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation and that humans are co-eternal with God and have the potential to become gods themselves. Joseph Smith was obviously a false prophet and a liar when you compare his belief and teachings to that of Jesus's teachings. He belong to the father of lies. Do you know that Lucifer fall from grace because he is prideful and wanted to exalt himself above God? So, isn't it so obvious that Joseph Smith received his vision from Satan that sinners have the potential to become gods themselves? Aren't he deceiving innocent gullible high educated and highly qualified people like you with his rebellious teachings? How can you say that Jesus will be pleased with Joseph Smith's rebellious teachings?

  592. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, you said that you use the KJV Bible. So what? Don't you know that English language came into existence much later than Hebrew and Greek language? Please note that I use the original Greek and Hebrew version. So, that's the main reason why I found so many doctrinal differences in all of Joseph Smith's fake manuals and also Muhammad's death manual.

    You've wasted 35 long years of your lifetime, believing in a false prophet and his lies than our beloved Lord Jesus Christ's words and teachings and sadly, you're still strongly defending Joseph Smith's wrong disposition and teachings.

    Similarly, there are many muslims and muslimahs behaving exactly like you when Dr Ali Sina exposed Muhammad's falsehood and lies. They keep on defending that Muhammad bin Abdullah was a true prophet and never admit that the Quran is full of inconsistencies and lies.

  593. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, let's imagine that you love Dr Ali Sina as much as I do. So, let's say that he expire tomorrow. Since you love him so much and can't bear to see him in hell. Can you be baptized in proxy of him, so that his soul will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

  594. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, you don't need professional training to save your neighbour from lies or foolishness. All you need is love because love will compel you to do all that you can, within your ability to save your neighbour at all cost. By the way, God is love. Let me ask you a thought provoking question. How far will you reach out to save your loved ones or even, my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina?

    The fact that Dr Albert Einstein was a human being like one of us and he too, had his faults and limitations, proved that he cannot be greater than Jesus Christ Who is the Son of god and there was no sin found in Him. So, isn't it foolish of my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina, to subscribe to Dr Albert Einstein's Single Principle behind every creation, which in itself is only half truth and not the complete truth.

  595. John K says:

    I'm sorry. I can't agree with you.

  596. John K says:

    "Joseph Smith had no fear of God"

    I disagree with that statement.

    "he introduced all kinds of funny doctrines and teachings which are totally different"

    I disagree with that statement.

    "deceive so many gullible people"

    I disagree with that statement.

    "Do you know think that Jesus will be pleased with … Joseph Smith"

    Yes.

  597. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, i'm glad to know that you are such a highly educated man with multiple degrees and professional experiences and that you are so highly educated too with Mormonism and highly qualified to be a Mormon scholar but so what? Look at Dr Ali Sina, I believe that he's got a PhD in psychology but so what? Does a highly educated man means that he is smarter or wiser or more intelligent than Jesus Christ?

    No, the problem with such highly educated men is that they are educated beyond their intelligence and they can't think beyond what was taught in the school. They can't differentiate between truth and lies anymore due to their years of wordly education and worldly influence . This is the sad truth.

  598. John K says:

    We use the Kings James Bible. Is your version of the Bible that much different from ours that there are significant doctrinal differences?

    Don't worry. I can assure you that after 35 years of study, I am quite certain that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price all uphold and sustain the Bible and vice versa.

  599. John K says:

    As I did previously tell you, that is the only reference in the Bible to baptism for the dead, and is proof that the Bible alone is insufficient to explain all of its doctrines.

  600. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, you've quoted Isaiah 29 and don't you know that Joseph Smith had no fear of God at all when he introduced all kinds of funny doctrines and teachings which are totally different from that of what my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, taught? How could he do this, to deceive so many gullible people to follow his religion? Do you know think that Jesus will be pleased with what Joseph Smith's audacity and actions?

  601. John K says:

    Hi Grace. Pushy and coercion are not the same. Coercion involves the use of force. Pushy means continuing to insist on your point of view after you have already explained it to someone and the continued effort is not welcome. You would be ministering to Dr. Sina the best you know how if he asked you to explain the Gospel to him, and you were doing your humanly best to do so in spite of a lack of professional training. This is acceptable to the Lord and is harmonious with the concept of wisdom out of the mouths of babes, but I think the Golden Rule would require you not insist when you have been told he is not interested.

    I don't think he idolized Einstein. Einstein is just someone all people look up to, but he was human and had his faults.

  602. Agracean says:

    My dear friend, John K, how in the world, can I respect Joseph Smith when he preached a different Bible from mine? How can I just keep my mouth shut and agree to disagree with something that's wrong? Do you think that Jesus will be pleased with Joseph Smith's teachings which are contrary to His teachings? I can't remain silent and not warn you of this great sin which Joseph Smith has commited. Do you want to be a partaker of this great sin?

  603. Agracean says:

    John K, like what I said earlier, please do provide me another Bible verse from the New Testament that Paul taught baptism for the dead because obviously that verse 1 Cor 15:29 which you've quoted is not relevant as Paul was referring to 'they' which means those Jews or gentiles's belief and practices living in Corinth at that time and not him nor his followers or Jesus's disciples. If he was referring to himself or his followers or Jesus's disciples, he would have use 'we' many times instead of 'they'. So far, I've checked the whole New Testament and can't find one verse that shows that the apostles practices baptism for the dead.

  604. Agracean says:

    John K, am I pushy? Did I really coerce him to follow Jesus? Is it wrong of me to minister the absolute truth to Dr Ali Sina the best I know how? No doubt he has the freedom to choose to believe in the Single principle behind every creation, but as a good Samaritan, I've also got the freedom to point out all the blind spots which his idol, Dr Albert Einstein has overlooked, so that he may has the discretion to know the limitations of his idol and that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour is greater than this dead scientist because He is the Word of life and the Word became flesh.

  605. John K says:

    "I've been Christian for many years and after reading some of Joseph Smith's belief and teachings. I felt that there's something seriously wrong with his words and belief and you ought to doubt and investigate for the truth yourself. Then you will realize that he's a charlatan and it's time to get out of this cult before it's too late."

    Grace, you're not understanding that I am not the village idiot. I have multiple degrees in analysis and many, many years of professional and ecclesiastical experience. I am fairly up to date on the state of the art of Book of Mormon scholarship and archaeology, and I can assure you that whatever knowledge you may have about the LDS church and texts is quite rudimentary compared to mine. So telling me to doubt and investigate things myself is not meaningful advice when I am highly qualified to comment on these matters.

  606. John K says:

    "because this verse clearly stated 'they' and never 'I' or 'we"

    That does not substantiate your point. Who, then is being baptized for the dead, and why would Paul cite it as support for his argument for the resurrection? It would do him no good at all to cite people doing something false to bolster his claim for something he believes is true.

  607. John K says:

    I appreciate your sentiments and good will, but your comments are the truth from your perspective, and I have asked you to respect my perspective and just agree to disagree. Again, saying that I put my hope and trust in Joseph Smith rather than Christ is judgemental and shows that you really don't understand what I think and believe. I have asked you not to esteem yourself a better judge of my management of my life than myself.

  608. John K says:

    Yes, I agree we are to bear with one another, forgive one another, and love one another; and, no, I do not agree that Joseph Smith did not do these things. It's not about dividing the body of Christ, it's about Isaiah 29:

    13 ¶Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous bwork among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

    16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

    17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

    18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book [of mormon], and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

    19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

    20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

    21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

    22 Therefore thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.

    23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

    24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

  609. Agracean says:

    John K, no doubt Joseph Smith and the early mormons faced severe persecutions from those Christians in America but that doesn't mean that his visions and the book or mormons and the pearl of great price are from God. We have to compare it with Jesus's Words and teachings and understand if they matched. Muhammad also claimed that he received a vision from the angel Gabriel and he also has a book called the Quran. But we knew that it's a pack of lies because Allah and the angel were the devil masquerading themselves as an angel of light. I've been Christian for many years and after reading some of Joseph Smith's belief and teachings. I felt that there's something seriously wrong with his words and belief and you ought to doubt and investigate for the truth yourself. Then you will realize that he's a charlatan and it's time to get out of this cult before it's too late.

  610. Agracean says:

    John K, as a sister in Christ whose motto in life is to uphold the Golden Rule and the absolute truth, I knew that my truthful comments will sour our friendship but this is the least that I can do to help you, my beloved friend. I hope that you will understand that Jesus Christ never tell lies and because of this, I pray that you will put your hope and trust in Him than Joseph Smith.

  611. Agracean says:

    Joseph Smith did not understand the truth that we are one body in Christ as preached by the apostle Paul. I Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. What kind of vision is this that instructed him and his family not to join any existing churches?

    Didn't the apostle Paul encourage us to bear with one another and forgive one another and also our Lord Jesus has also instructed us to love one another? Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. So, Joseph Smith's vision and teachings are contradictory to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus and the apostle Paul. He was dividing the body of Christ!

  612. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, I'm very sure that the apostle Paul did not teach baptism for the dead at all. Please read the Bible carefully and quote me another verse that specifically mentioned his teachings about baptism for the dead. Please don't quote 1 Cor 15:29 again to substantiate your claim because this verse clearly stated 'they' and never 'I' or 'we'.

    What's wrong with my belief in Jesus' words? Isn't my beloved Lord Jesus Christ greater than the apostle Paul and Joseph Smith? Can you remember Jesus said to the apostle Paul, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’? Can you remember how Saul's name became Paul? Isn't the apostle Paul preaching and teaching about Jesus? How can you say that I throw away the rest of the Bible verses that are not in red? Did I do that?

  613. John K says:

    God loves all his children. Trust him to take care of Dr. Sina. It is our duty to preach to all, but each individual has their own choice to do what they will with what we say. Being pushy about it only raises defenses and puts up walls.

  614. John K says:

    So it is not sufficient for you that in the Bible the Apostle Paul taught baptism for the dead? It has to be only in Jesus words only or you won't believe? That's like being a Quran-only Muslim, or like buying a red-letter edition of the Bible and cutting out the red letter text to keep and use and throwing the rest of the Bible into the trash.

    "Isn't it obvious" – no, not at all. That is a position that you have chosen. It is not my choice, and it is certainly not obvious at all.

  615. John K says:

    That's not quite accurate. The searching of Joseph Smith and his family for a denomination to join are quite well documented. His family had split with some favoring Presbyterian and other Methodism when he received the First Vision telling them to join none of the existing churches.

    At one point in Church history, the Ohio persecution phase if I remember correctly, all Mormons joined the Masons hoping to gain allies against the mob persecution. Unfortunately it didn't work out, and similarly all Mormons left the Masons.

    Please stop trying to find reasons for me to doubt. It's not going to happen. It can only sour our friendship.

  616. John K says:

    There you go again, Grace! – "blindly, just like you". That's judgemental. Please stop doing that.

    These are your doubts. Please do not try to make them mine.

    Thanks, though, for your book recommendation though. I am, however, far behind on reading the books I currently own, so I won't be budgeting any more purchases.

    And thanks for talking with me. I don't mean to be critical of you. I'm just trying to express myself so our conversation will be appropriate.

  617. Agracean says:

    Maybe you're right to say that I should have confidence in Dr Ali Sina and his capability in realizing the ultimate truth. But we know that time and tide waits for no man. I don't know how old is my hero now. Perhaps he's in his 50s or 60s like you and who knows if he will live how long on planet earth? I don't wish to see him ended up like his idol, Dr Albert Einstein, who expired suddenly, without receiving the Way, the Truth and the Life into his heart before he enter into eternity. What a wasted life that would be.

  618. Agracean says:

    You quoted the is verse to support your approval for one of mormon's practice, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? – 1 Corinthians 15:29

    Please be informed that nowhere in the Bible can you find a verse which our beloved Lord Jesus Christ instructed any of His disciples or followers to be baptized by proxy for dead people, neither can we find an account of how to go about it. Why? Isn't it obvious that Joseph Smith don't understand this verse at all and that he is a liar and you mormons, are so easily fooled by him just like the muslims and muslimahs, conned by Muhammad.

    Please read the above verse carefully. Joseph Smith and many Mormons are not aware that Paul never said Christians baptized for the dead. Those verses say they, not we. In the very next verse, Paul contrasts that with we. Paul simply commented on what others did. Similarly Tertullian also used “them” and “us” similar to 1 Corinthians 15:29) in On Monogamy (c.193 A.D.)

  619. Agracean says:

    Please note that I've never read the above 2 books at all and it doesn't matter because I knew that Joseph Smith and his parents were once freemasons and this is the most crucial reason which is good enough for you to start doubting his words and his new found religion.

  620. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, thanks for your prompt reply. You said that your doubts about Joseph Smith were resolved before you made your decision to be baptized into the LDS church. Are you really satisfied with his testimony, teachings, belief and practices without doubting and investigating everything he said or do at all for 35 long years? You reminded me of muslims and muslimahs, who believe in Muhammad blindly, just like you. Dr Ali Sina once mentioned that we should doubt everything and yes, I did doubt Mary K Baxter's testimony at first when I bought a copy of the 'Divine Revelation of Hell' when I was a teengager back then. By the grace of God, she came to preach in my church 20 yrs ago, and shared about her experiences during those visitations to hell which Jesus led her when she was in the spirit and I also studied the Bible with regard to all the bible scriptures she provided. Please spare some time to read this book of warning. It's her message of warning that matters.

  621. John K says:

    Hi Grace,

    Thanks for writing again. My doubts about Joseph Smith were resolved before I made my decision to be baptized into the church. Since receiving confirmation from the Holy Spirit of the truthfulness of his testimony and of the divine origin of the Book of Mormon, there has been no need to doubt, just as I am sure that you are secure in what the Holy Spirit has told you about Jesus being the Son of God and the truthfulness of the Bible.

    Shortly after I joined the church, I read a book on Mormons and Masons. The same book seems not to be available anymore, but there are currently too similar titles in stock at Deseret Book:

    Exploring the Connection Between Mormons and Masons http://deseretbook.com/Exploring-Connection-Betwe

    The Relationship of Mormonism and Freemasonry http://deseretbook.com/Relationship-Mormonism-Fre

    I don't remember exactly how they answer your questions, but you can get an idea from the book descriptions at the links above. One of the reader reviews reminds me that the Mormon Endowment existed before Masons existed. I know that for a fact because I have a book that is an extensive analysis of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which the Egyptians took from the Jews in ancient history.

    Your understanding of Salvation for the Dead is slightly inaccurate in its details. It's not about prayer, and the clearest reference in the Bible is from Paul, who wrote,

    "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? – 1 Corinthians 15:29

    So this shows Mary Baxter was wrong, and demonstrates the need for additional scriptures and living prophets since there is no Christian denomination on the earth that knows what to do with this verse besides the Mormons.

    Actually Peter also contributes to this doctrine when talking about Christ's visit to the Spirit World after his death and before his resurrection:

    1 Peter
    "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

    So if it was too late for the people who died in the flood, then why did Jesus go to preach to them? Don't forget also the verse that Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to save it. The Gospel is Good News for everyone.

    Interesting you can accept Jesus telling Mary Baxter something, but can't accept Jesus telling Joseph Smith something. Jesus said there would be false prophets, but he didn't say there won't be anymore, so don't listen to any of them. Instead he told us how to discern them: by their fruits.

    Have confidence in Dr. Sina's ability to take care of himself in his search for truth and God's ability to reach him. God will reach out to him in his own due time.

  622. Agracean says:

    John K, can you let me have your reply on my above comment? 🙂

  623. Agracean says:

    Goodness gracious. I can't imagine another bubble burst and how it affect the whole world!

  624. Agracean says:

    John K, have you ever doubted Joseph Smith's testimony in your 35 yrs walk as a mormon? Besides the heavenly mother issue, do you know that Joseph Smith and his family were freemasons? Is it true that mormon temples and even temple garments bore the symbols of freemasonry? Where in the Bible did Jesus tell us to pray for the dead and that through your prayers, they will receive salvation? Mary K Baxter, a Christian lady missionary who wrote a book entitled 'Divine Revelation of Hell' testified the truth that Jesus told her that once a person is dead, it is too late.

    Alright, I'll not embarass Dr Ali Sina any further and yes, you're also right to say that I can't force a horse to drink but I guess that I can't bear to watch this heroic horse die of thirst due to his obstinancy and stupidity.

  625. John K says:

    If I had my way, he would be in jail. There is not one law enforcement officer who will arrest him for all the laws he has broken. He is deliberately destroying the US economy so he can pull down the Constitution and install socialism or communism. That is treason and sedition.

  626. Agracean says:

    Dear John K, can you help me to shut Obama's mouth up? The minute he open his big mouth to give a speech, the share prices dropped like crazy.

  627. John K says:

    Grace, I have shown you the evidence supporting my view. I can't just believe something because you say so. Now you suggested that the Spirit will tell me your belief is right, and I believe the Spirit supports my view. So one of us is wrong. Please don't feel that you are in a better position to evaluate the conduct of my life than I am.

    I can appreciate your admiration for Dr. Sina, but you should be aware that public expressions of your feeling are probably somewhat embarrassing for him. Please do not put him in such an awkward position. If you want to say such things to him privately, I am sure it will be much better received.

    As far as your concern for the welfare of his soul, you must understand that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, or as a friend of mine once joked, you can't push him in! Similarly you must realize that he has heard your position several times, and I can imagine that he is also uncomfortable with you constantly trying to change his views. If he is ready, he will come to you with questions, but if you push him back with constant pleadings, he won't want to come to you.

  628. Agracean says:

    Oh my dear friend, John K, what has our discussion about truth has to do with persecution? Are we persecuting each other? No, we are helping one another to attain enlightenment. LOL. 😛

    Don't make me cry again, John K. It doesn't matter whether others make me freel unwelcome here or not. Most importantly, I came back here because I realized that I love my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina very much, and I can't bear to watch him expire without receiving the ultimate truth, like Dr Albert Einstein. Besides that, I want you to know that I do care about you, my dear friend, and hope that my coming back will help you to come to the ultimate realization that we ought to worship God in spirit and in truth. I'm telling you the truth, there is really no 'heavenly mother' at all in heaven and please believe me. God bless.

  629. John K says:

    Right. So let's just agree to disagree. I feel just as badly that you ignored the evidence that I offered. So let's not persecute each other for our beliefs.

    Mostly I feel bad for the way that you left. If you have other interests and don't want to come anymore, that's fine. But I feel bad that others made you feel unwelcome.

  630. Agracean says:

    Yes, I don't have the power or the ability to change your mindset or belief through my sharing of the absolute truth but my sweet Holy Spirit is able to work miracles that changes the hearts and minds of people and even you! 🙂 I can respect everything about you but I can't respect human stupidity and foolishness because of agape love.

    Don't be so negative, my dearest John K. It never crossed my mind to ever use my loving words to put you down. I speak the truth about the 'heavenly mother' issue and you would not believe me. Jesus is my witness that there is no 'heavenly mother' in Heaven but we do have our Father in Heaven.

  631. Agracean says:

    Oh John K, I'm so touched and moved by your frankness and openess in expressing your feelings for my absence and presence here in this awesome website that my tears just came naturally. Hey, just wanna let you know that you're an awesome friend! 🙂

    John, I could see that you are a good and faithful man, loving and cherishing your belief for so many years without any wavering. I guess that you are probably in your 50s or 60s as being a mormon for 35 years is not a short period of time. Please note that I'm not a traditional Christian at all neither am I taking a condescending posture towards you. I'm just a humble and loving Christian who loves to uphold the Golden Rule.

  632. John K says:

    We were all fooled by Obama. He came into the presidential campaign as a virtual unknown and was promoted by the leftists as a messiah with no policy. To this day he is characterized by attitude and posturing rather than policy.

    Now his true nature has been documented. Some places to start are Stanley Kurtz' book, Radical in Chief, which explains Obama's communist background and Stealth Socialism, and Pamela Geller's book, Post-American Presidency that explains Obama's war on America. Another good one is The Root's of Obama's Rage that explains how his father and foreign upbringing made him hate America.

  633. John K says:

    Hi Grace,

    You can't imagine how glad I am to see you back. I know many have put you down because of you being very forward with your proselyting, but I have valued your friendship since you first invited me to be your friend in Freedom Bulwark, and I have had great sorrow at the length of your absence.

    Yes, I am still a Mormon and have been for 35 years, so there is nothing you can say or do that will change that. I also do not appreciate your taking a condescending posture towards me and acting like you are better than me because you are a traditional Christian and I am LDS. So I would appreciate it if we could just respect one another's differences and not say anymore about it. If you have sincere questions and want to learn, that is different, but I don't appreciate you trying to change me or put me down.

    Thanks

  634. Agracean says:

    Hi John K, I'm back again. Are you still a mormon?

  635. John K says:

    Hi Maruf,

    I can appreciate what you are saying, but choosing to believe in God just because he might be out there and he might punish us if we don't believe in him is foolish. Paul wrote that faith is evidence in things that are not seen, which are true.

    I was raised as a scientist, and if someone wants you to believe in something that cannot be proved by science, they had better have a good reason.

    Christ taught that the Holy Ghost will testify of the truth of all things. So you will find the proof of religion in your personal communion with God in your heart as he testifies to the truth of the good principles in the scriptures.

    Your logic about Dr. Sina is inconsistent. If he is able to establish a proof, it is valid for what it is. A court can make a case against a criminal. That doesn't mean they are obliged to teach an ethics class as part of their mandate.

    But if you had read more of Dr. Sina's writings on this site, you would know that he teaches that any religion that teaches a Golden Rule is good. Islam is the only one that does not. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and you will never do wrong.

  636. Maruf says:

    According to Blaise Pascal (in article http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/) we should believe in God. Because if we now believe that there is no God, but after death suddenly found that there is really a God, then no scope to rectify, straight looser. But If we believe in God in this life, then we will be in safe side whether there is God exists or not. So what we have to do is to find out the only true / loving God among the Gods in various religions.

    If Dr. Ali Sina was honest, suppose one of my friends called me, Maruf come out of your home, right then I will asked him where I will live at night? If he could not provide me another home than he has no right to call me come out? My friend should first manage another better home for me if he wants me to leave my current home. But Mr. Sina is not doing that he should have at first come up with a truer / lovelier God comparing to Muslim God before asking Muslims to denounce their faith. But without giving a solution he is offering a problem. This proves that Mr. Ali Sina has something evil hidden in his mind.

    He also suggests that to live ethically this will be enough for you. I am also agree with him in this regard.

    But who will decide the ethics meaning which is bad or which is right?

    Somebody tells, looking to a woman is bad, somebody tells looking is ok but touching is bad, somebody tells shaking and kissing is ok but adultery is bad, somebody tells everything is ok if both agree. Somebody tells Gay is very bad, some tells no it is their right. Some tells to be vegetarian is right , some tells no everything which is permitted can be eaten . Some tells bikini is perfect because it reveals the whole beauty, some tells no- woman should be modestly covered. Doctors say alcohol is harmful but it is permitted in many countries. Some says gambling is bad because it looses man financially, socially but many countries has permitted it. Some says interest is not bad for economy although it can’t resist recession, others tell that Islamic banking is less affected by the recession. A robber says robbery is good because he can earn much money with less effort and enjoy a luxurious life but the victim will say it is crime.

    For these reasons laws of every country differs each other and there is a continuous clash between pro and con.

    So the question is that who will define the good or bad or set limit. It is obviously the God, the Creator. Otherwise every right or wrong i.e. ethics becomes meaningless. So Gods presence/guidance is essential.

    So what is Dr. Sina doing, he is trying to make Muslims ex, without suggesting a more true God/religion for them. He wants to bring them out of home to under the sun, rain, storm, danger. It is inhuman. He is utilizing his brilliancy, literacy for misleading people, for the evil of the society.

    [email protected]

  637. Taty says:

    I like what you say in this interview, espacially your commentary about the value of animal life 🙂

    But I don't understand that comment about Obama being a buffoon and whose life is full of crime?? o.0

  638. John K says:

    Darkfire wrote: "So you see Dr. Sina, bullies aren't necessarily sociopaths. They are sometimes people who are simply ignorant."

    Ignorance is forgivable. Bullying is sociopathic.

  639. Arya Anand says:

    I agree with Ali Sina in saying that pacifism does not work in most cases and violence must be stopped by force. All Non-Muslim countries should wake up from long slumber and first, ban Islam in their countries and expatriate all defiant Muslims in these countries to the Muslim countries and demand Muslim countries to receive all such Muslims into their countries. Second, after a pre-determined period of time, Non-Islamic countries must demand the governments in Muslim countries to ban Islam and wean their citizens from Islam. Since it is a matter of survival of humanity, those regimes in Muslim countries opposing our demand should be changed by using force to save humankind from total destruction and extinction.

  640. darkfire316 says:

    My Dear Friend Ali Sina, I must disagree with your last point.

    "Evil should be stopped with force. Turning the other cheek will encourage the bully. This philosophy presumes that the person who slaps you has a conscience and becomes remorseful when you turn the other cheek. That is generally not the case. The person who has a conscience will not slap you in the first place. Abusers are sociopaths. By turning the other cheek they become emboldened. They interpret your tolerance as sign of weakness. They feel empowered and intensify their abuse."

    Mother Teresa was initially faced with strong opposition by Hindus. They would throw stones at her because they feared she had alterior motives. But Mother Teresa never spoke badly of them. She always turned the other cheek. She even cared for a hindu priest that was dying that Hindus wouldn't even care for. Through this selfless act and many others she won over the hard headed Hindus that were bullying her.

    Buddha was the father of non-violence. A story has it that once a brahmin was very angry that the Buddha was taking away people from his faith. He started abusing and bullying Buddha. Buddha remained non-reactive. The Brahmin started abusing him more. The Buddha remained non-reactive. The Brahmin being confused asked why the Buddha was not angry. The Buddha explained "My dear brother, I have not accepted a single abuse from you. The Brahmin was confused. He asked how this could be. The Buddha explained the Brahmin was only hurting himself. Buddha said "Dear brother, suppose you give some coins to somebody, and if he does not accept them, with whom will those coins remain?"
    The Brahmin apologized and begged the Buddha for his forgiveness.

    I was going to mention Gandhi, but you provided his example above.

    So you see Dr. Sina, bullies aren't necessarily sociopaths. They are sometimes people who are simply ignorant. It just sometimes takes someone with great humanity to open their eyes. That is all.

    But I do agree with you that non-violence does not always work. One just has to know when to use it and when not to. That is what our reasoning is for. Even Gandhi acknowledged that non-violence might have to be abandoned to save people from Hitler.

  641. revealed says:

    That's right. I didn't think about it before. So, no wonder nowadays it is very difficult for someone from an silamic country to visit western countries. My daughter has to attend an international students' conference in one of the country in Europe and she had to fsubmit extremely meticulous documents. She is agnostic but had to undergo a series of silly questions proving that she wouldn't go to that country to be a jihad jane. But, I do understnad why western people are doing so. Now the problem is it is really pathetic for Islamic non-believers to survive in country like Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on.

  642. Ali Sina says:

    You are right only if Muslims are kept in their own Islamic countries. I have explained this in my book. Muslims will self destruct if left to their own devices. The problem arises when they immigrate to the non-Muslim countries, particularly the western countries and allowed to procreate like rabbit. We need to save the west from them. So they must either denounce Islam, hate and violence and integrate or go back to where they or their fathers came from.

  643. revealed says:

    Inspiring….really inspiring. I think we dont have to fight against them forcefully coz they simply cant fit with the survival of the fittest law. Moslems give birth to more children than non-moslems do. They rely on quantity not quality. The more populate they are the less chance for them to give the best education and food for their children. So, they will have physically and mentally weak generations. To add more, they are hostile and easy to fight among themselves even for a trivial matter. For these reasons, they will not be part of the human kind survival. They will naturally be eliminated , not because of what we do to the but because of their own choice of life path. Dont worry be happy those such people will extinct.. Please let me know if this idea is wrong.

  644. dr.omprakash says:

    man dis is awesome.u seem to be a great philosopher.i am impressed.u r victorious.yatho dharmasthatho jayaha.where there is dharma there is victory

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