What to Do with My Muslim Boyfriend?

Hi,

I am a university student.  I was a Christian by birth and now I am humanist. I met some Muslims and it is kind of embarrassing to say, but I fell in love with one of them. I started to read about Islam and I really don`t like it. As a woman, I feel really discriminated. I’m sure he loves me a lot, but for Muslims their religion is more. I certainly i won’t be a Muslim. The fact is that I told him that I will be an atheist forever, and he tells me that he can’t marry with an atheist. I told him that if he proves me that Islam is a true religion I will marry him, I’ll wear a burkah, and I will let him to have the wives he wants. He told me he will invite me next year to argue with a Muslim cleric in Egypt and he will show me proofs.

I have argued about Islam but with common people and well, but I don’t know how it could be to argue with a cleric. I’m not afraid, for sure, but i want to argue well. So i have to ask for your book. It will help me a lot for this challenge, and if you have an advice, I will be grateful.

I admire how brave you are..

Tina

 

Hi Tina,

Let me warn you that you should not debate with any Muslim cleric. Why? Because Muslims lie and trick you. You are not prepared for that. You don’t know Islam and when they throw a lie at you, you can’t catch their lies. So you lose.

But I can defeat Muslims all the times. They can’t deceive me because I know Islam better than them.  Read my book for your own information but tell this guy whom you are dating  that he should invite his cleric and you invite me and we debate in writing. Then you’ll see he becomes scared.  They know me and they know they can’t win over me unless there is snow in Islamic hell. Without lies Muslims are completely helpless. They are advancing because people know nothing about Islam and are easy prey.

Furthermore, this dude cannot prove Islam to you himself, but he has strong faith and believes his cleric will prove it. This says everything about Muslims. They are ignorant about Islam and yet they are convinced that it is a true religion and that someone can prove it. They have not read the Quran but tell you if you read it you will find it to be true.  I always receive emails from these deluded Muslims who say Zakir Naik or some other Muslim scholar can prove me wrong, but conveniently these Muslim scholar don’t want to debate with me because I am beneath them. This is how Muslim mind works.

I always discourage people debating with Muslims unless they are very knowledgeable about Islam. Their confidence is misplaced. You can never win against deception. Unless you are an expert on Islam, you should not talk to Muslims.  Let us say they claim Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and Muhammad elevated the status of women. Both these claims are false. But how do you counter them if you don’t know the facts?  The defense against lies is facts, not logic.  Lies can paralyze logic. Only facts and truth can destroy it.

Also what makes you think you will have any future with this guy when he tells you he is not going to marry an atheist? Leave him for Pete’s sake.  The world is full of good men. Why do you have to fall in love with a cultist loser?

Dump him now – right now! Go out and find another person and start dating right away.  You don’t need to explain anything to him. Just say you respect yourself more than wanting to sacrifice your future for a cultist brain dead Muslim.  If he insists and becomes melodramatic, which most likely he will, give him my book and tell him to read it.  If he refuses, or reads only a few pages, just dump him.

Don’t do stupid things Tina. You have only one life, don’t ruin it.

Ali

Thanks a lot. Yes I’ve tried to leave him many times, but i don’t know how. He appears again and certainly I don’t want to change my mind.

Yes and in that part you are right, when I argue, he says I don’t know Islam well and well and even if I can read everything I haven’t lived as a Muslim. He doesn’t want me to convert to Islam; he wants me to believe in God again.

Thanks a lot for your advices. I don’t know what happened with me really. I was just trying to understand people, but felt in love in that way. Would be great for me if he would become an apostate. Anyway, changing the mind of a person is very difficult.

Thanks a lot! I knew that I could find more help in apostates, because when I’ve tried in Muslims they discriminate me for being atheist…

Tina

An average person falls in love and falls out of it a dozen of times in their life.  This man is lying to you when he says he does not want you to convert to Islam, but just believe in God.  Why then Muhammad fought against the Jews and the Christians and why Muslims attacked Europe and Persia?  All these people believed in God. I can detect their lies and deception because I was one of them. That is why they have stopped debating with me.

Furthermore, Muslims don’t believe in God. They believe in Allah, a very evil entity.  Allah has all the characteristics of Satan.  Even if you want to believe in God you should stay away from that diabolic character.

He will not become an apostate because he does not want to listen. Maybe if you dump him and he comes begging, you can give him my book and tell him if he wants to talk to you he should read this book from cover to cover.  If he does, he will leave Islam. That is for certain.   So maybe that is his salvation. But if he refuses, just shut the door and move on.  This relationship will not bring you happiness.  Let him find a Muslima who agrees that she is deficient in intelligence and does not mind obeying her husband and to be beaten.  How can a human being accept so much humiliation and be devoted to a man who treated them like garbage? Unless you want to be like that, stay away from Islam and Muslims.

Even if you don’t care about your own future you have no right to destroy the future of your children.  Will you forgive yourself if this man forces your daughter to wear hijab and forces her to marry another abusive Muslim man against her consent?  Read the story of women who married to Muslim men. There are no happy endings, unless the guy is not Muslim and only calls himself with that name.

Furthermore, Muslims generally come from abusive patriarchal families. They are damaged as marriage material.   A Muslim man sees a woman as an object. That is how his father treated his mother and that is what he knows about relationships. He is also very possessive. Possessiveness is not love. It is insecurity which manifests itself in violence.

Yes, I know!  That’s what I told him… that Islam is not good for my daughters. I will think more about this. Sure you know more about it. If he refuses to read your book, I´ll leave him… it’s the best… but why do you think he says he loves me?  To spread the religion in a cruel way?

He says he loves you because probably  he does.  Muslims are humans with feelings too. The problem is that their cult takes precedence over everything else including their humanity.

Do you think that the parents who honor-kill their daughters don’t love them? Of course any living being loves its offspring. Muslims love their children and yet they kill them if they talk to a boy, or they sent them to blow themselves up. Islam has possessed them to an extent that it overshadows their humanity.  They are reduced into unthinking zombies. You will never be happy with a cultist. Muslims are not religious. They are cultists.

They are victims but you can’t save them. They must save themselves. To save someone sinking in a quagmire, you have to position yourself in a solid ground and throw him a rope. It is then up to him to grab that rope and pull himself up. You must never step into the mire or you too will be drowned.

The salvation for Muslims is available. All they have to do is read my article sand my book and they will be set free.  But we can’t force them to read if they don’t want to read.  Just stay away from them. They will self-destruct and the survivors will leave Islam.

He says you don’t know Islam, but he does not know it either. The problem is that he does not want to know the truth about it. He loves to fill his mind with more lies because in that way his bobble universe of self-deception will remain intact. Like a caterpillar, Muslim  have woven a cocoon of lies around tjemselves and are protective of it.  You can’t help them.  They have to break themself loose from that cocoon and fly out of it.  Freedom is a personal choice.

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569 Responses

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  2. wkc says:

    Dear Tina,
    I'm sure you are an intelligent student.
    My advise start picking the books and study the religion.
    You will get your answer.Knowledge is power.

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  4. normal person! says:

    WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS GARBAGE?!!!!!!! 'Muslims do not believe in God, they believe in Allah..and evil entity' ARE YOU DELUDED OR JUST PLAIN DUMB?! Do some research if you are at all capable. For goodness sake, Allah is GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    READ A BOOK OR TWO WOMAN

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  8. Sadaf says:

    The one who says he can defend a muslim and that muslims lie about islam and other religion should speak to me. I challenge him/her. Insha Allah I can prove that islam is the only way to lead a correct life and the only deen. No other so called religions.

  9. Kira says:

    Overly generalized racist garbage. I pity your narrow view of the world. I really do.

  10. marimba says:

    This is the most ignorant thing i have ever read. Saying that Islam is a cult?! Read up on your facts before you go preaching this to people, because you obviously have no idea…

  11. cuteface says:

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    Egyptiam men mostly use dagga, alcohol and they sleep around and have the guts to call foreign women sluts! Huh they are professional gigolos! They must all burn in Hell all these players that target innocent foreign women!

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  15. human says:

    That does not kill you will make you stronger.
    Good medicine is bitter to the taste

    After reading the comments i could understand how a crimainal feels about police. They want all the laws to be broken they want a free world where they can do anything they want.

  16. Ali says:

    Don't you guys ever get fed up with these phantom ex Muslims or Muslims wanting to break out?

    Just reading the stories makes one laugh, thinking, it's one thing being sceptical, but these made up stories and fictional characters pretending to be Muslims or Ex Muslims or wannabe Muslims is just a joke.

    Whoever is writing these scripts needs to get fired and find someone who can at least make it 'look' plausible.

  17. Fatima says:

    Yet another page with anti-Islam responses by so many people..

    My advice would be to you sister that if you really love him why is his religion so important to you ?

    and why are you so afraid of it..?

    Trust me, I mean, it is kind of funny more than it's heart-breaking to see how all of the ppl think of islam being a "Terrorist organization" or "extremist group" rather than an ideology or a religion..

    Instead of finding points to debate on and to "win" over a cleric.. Why don't you rad about it yourself with a clear mind..?

    One of the best ways to do it is to get a copy of the Quran for yourself..

    even then to understand it's true meaning u'd need a teacher.. but even when you read it with it's translation.. you'll see many things for yourself..

    If you ever want to embrace it or just want to get info about it.. try doing it with an impartial un-biased mind.

    May God Guide you to the Truth.

    Best wishes.

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  19. Richard says:

    Dear Tina, I don't not know what type of muslim man your partner is, but I do know that if you are unhappy, you may divorce him. All these hate comments about muslims are really a waste of time in my opinion. I know of women who are perfectly happy being married to muslim men, who treat them with the greatest of respect and kindness, and I know of others who try to impose their beliefs on them. It all depends on the individual, not on the religion. If you love this man, give the relationship a try; should it not work out, then part with him. After all, we are all just human beings in the end. Read up for yourself what it means to be a muslim, but in the end, your partner may just follow a very watered-down version of what you read, like so many mulims of western origin I know who really just pay lip-service to the religion. Most of all, do not fear him. PS: I know many muslim men, and I know that they are nothing like what Mr Ali Sina et al have claimed. ..my 2 cents worth. I wish you all the best.

  20. Jalees Ur Rehman says:

    Mr. Jack….
    Our prophet is an example for all humans. He never raped anyone,he never killed anyone and nor he divided humanity. He spread ISLAM by love and holy teachings of Islam. After sucess in Battle of badar,he left all non-muslims.So how can you say that he killed anyone? Before the birth of our Holy prophet,non-muslims were killing their girls but after birth, Muhammad (peace be upon him) stopped them all. Because in ISLAM, a woman have a great status.So how can he raped any woman? Our holy prophet don't allowed us to say anything wrong about other religion. So if we are not saying wrong about anyone then we don't give permission to anybody to say anything wrong about our great Prophet(peace be upon him).

  21. Ali Sina says:

    And what will you do if I show you Muhammad allowed and in fact encouraged his followers to lie? Will you then change your stance and start defending him?

    This is what I come accross all the time. Muslims deny categorically that something is in Islam and will accuse me of lying, until I show them the evidence. Then these very Muslims make a 180 degree change instantly and start defending and justifying the very thing they denied so categorically. This is mind boggling.

    Put it here in writing saying what you’ll do if I prove that Muhammad encouraged his followers to lie?

  22. mustafa says:

    Muslims should never lie, and are not allowed to… And you were an ex-muslim right one of the kuffar the quran mentions about types of people like you but do as u like…

  23. mustafa says:

    Muslims should never lie, and are not allowed to… And you were an ex-muslim right one of the kuffar i is written about types of people like you but do as u like…

  24. Interesting Ali says:

    Is there any Dental instrument available or will be available which can restrict christians girls falling in love with muslim ?

    I am studying such Phytochemical but its pharmacological actions are uncertain

  25. Dentists Instruments says:

    If we are referring to the feeling which we get in touch with "love" then we are generally of a feeling. What we think toward a particular personal is not essential, until our feeling is indicated in a particular action. Now if that action is permitted, then well and fantastic. If it is undesirable, then we have obtained something that Allah does not take of. If it is really like between a man and a woman, the feeling itself is not the subject of asking on the Day of Judgment. If you encounter you really like someone, then you cannot control your feeling. If that really like needs you to try to see that personal in key and to offer idea to your ideas in actions permitted only within the relationship of marriage then what you are doing is undesirable.Dental Instruments

  26. Dental Manufacturer says:

    If we are mentioning the sentiment which we contact "love" then we are basically of a sensation. What we presume toward a particular individual is not important, until our sensation is indicated in a particular activity. Now if that activity is allowable, then well and excellent. If it is unacceptable, then we have received something that Allah does not accept of. If it is really like between a man and a lady, the sentiment itself is not the topic of asking on the Day of Verdict. If you experience you really like someone, then you cannot management your sensation. If that really like requires you to try to see that individual in key and to provide concept to your thoughts in activities allowable only within the connection of wedding then what you are doing is unacceptable.

  27. fahad says:

    This letter by Tina could be clearly made up. There is no location, no date, no address and no witness to verify the authencity of the letter. So you are all debating over a false letter.lol.

  28. LetsBeHonest says:

    Too much bullshit here. Muslim men are the most caring and understanding men, and they are definitely 100 times better than ass-loving, pussy-addicted, alcohol-saturated typical "free" men.

  29. beheshta mujadidi says:

    Islam teaches peace and goodness……for any of you who feel "how is islam good….muslims are terrorists…they kill innocent people" well that is not true because islam has not taught killing innocent peiple by the name of allah…..it is actually prohibite in islam….and islam teaches that if you kill one…it is the same as killing everyone…if you save one..it is as if you have saved everyone 
    .and for those who think…."what women would want to be a muslim?….tey are beaten up by their husbands" actually islam has prohibited this…….the prophet s.a.w said"the best among you is the one best towards your wife"….and umar e farooq(ibn al khattab) said " a man should be like a child towards his wife…happy and easy going…but when among men he shall act as they do" so i dont think islam is is how some people think it is….it is a religion of peace and happiness

  30. behehta mujadidi says:

    Islam teaches peace and goodness……for any of you who feel "how is islam good….muslims are terrorists…they kill innocent people" well that is not true because islam has not taught killing innocent peiple by the name of allah…..it is actually prohibite in islam….and islam teaches that if you kill one…it is the same as killing everyone…if you save one..it is as if you have saved everyone
    .and for those who think…."what women would want to be a muslim?….tey are beaten up by their husbands" actually islam has prohibited this…….the prophet s.a.w said"the best among you is the one best towards your wife"….and umar e farooq(ibn al khattab) said " a man should be like a child towards his wife…happy and easy going…but when among men he shall act as they do" so i dont think islam is is how some people think it is….it is a religion of peace and happiness

  31. SorrowSnake says:

    Islam is the problem, this would become clear if you read the Quran and study the life of Muhammad. You’ll find this man was vile and his teaching are nothing but hate.   

  32. zee says:

    ISLAM IS PERFECT, THE PROBLEM IS THE ADHERENCE BY THE PEOPLE. LIKE COSNTITUTION CAN BE GOOD BUT STILL SOME PEOPLE MAY DECIDE OR BE IGNORANT AND NOT FOLLOW IT.YOU CAN NOT BLAME CONSTITUTION, SO IS THE CASE WITH ISLAM.

  33. Lulu Lemon says:

    whoaaa you are wrong on so many levels. allah is the equivalent of god and muslims strive not to listen to satan, who is the opposite of allah, or god if you will. and i am a muslim woman and unlike what you assert, i do not allow men to walk all over me or beat me. lolk. that is not what islam is about. muslim women even have certain rights in the qur'an, like choosing not to cook or clean for their husband or anyone, if they don't want to. haha are you high? stop making up or reinforcing stereotypes.

  34. Amani says:

    I wouldn't enjoy the time left with my boyfriend if he told me he's okay with being engaged soon to a girl he hardly knows.
    I'd question his sanity and dump him asap

  35. the bishop says:

    A problematic relationship or marriage has not much bearing with religions. Even those who are married to men/women of same religions and races could end up with miseries and divorces. If common religions(or no religions) guaranteed a lifetime marriage, then they will be no divorces whatsoever.
    Just because someone does not like any particular religion and equates it with a success or failure or a relationship, that does not mean one has a license to lambaste the religion.
    Thus, please do not make your case as something universal because out there there are so many successful and unsuccessful marriages involving all kinds of religions, beliefs, whatnots.
    This world can be a more peaceful place to live in if we can learn how to respect others. We just dont have to be moronic like some who gave advices but with malicious intentions.

  36. Shafiq says:

    I wish I wouldn't spend my time reading this lose discussion. but it is good that I learned not to do it again.

  37. winoceros says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFMcWjaMXwo&fe

    Please be safe. Remember…in the end, you don't have a say in what happens to you. You will either submit or flee. Please, please be safe.

  38. guest says:

    He has now told me that he is to be engaged soon to this girl he hardly knows, and that he told me as soon as he knew, he hates the idea of it, but sees no way out of it (especially as he is the only one of his brothers who is likely to get married).
    His future wife will come to a city near by next year to study, however, I will have graduated by then, and I have no idea what I will be doing with my life (probably move country). As this girl and I dont seem to overlap in time, I agreed to keep on seeing him as my graduating would lead to a natural break up, and I'm not taking this relationship too seriously.

    However, he seems to be having some long term plans (and what I have understood from the culture, you dont bother unless you are getting something out of it). From my point of view his long term idea is just a reaction to the stress of his current situation. However, I cannot be certain. Could this have any unpleasant consequences in the future? Or is it ok to take things as they are, in this particular short term circumstance, and enjoy the time we have together and then leave it at that?
    Thank youuu

  39. Guest says:

    I completely agree.

    I am a university student who is daiting a Pakistani PhD (and I am extrememely aware of the situation), he is an atheist, very bright, extrememly popular, drinks lots, has had many flings, has lots of international friends, and appears to be fully integrated into the western culture, also his parents had a love marriage. (Family lives back in Pakistan however)

    I have however, come accross the question of the overlapping between culture and religion, even though he is not religious, I can still sense some alarming signs when we are alone. For this reasons we have had a very on and off relationship as I refuse to abide to any of his ways; he is however a very intelligent person and seems to be adapting to me, veery gradually, almost as if he had decided that I was the one, and anything has to be done to keep me interested. He has been known in the past for being a heart breaker, but now he wants a full on longt term serious relationship, and he has really proved this, (also we have been in the same friend group for 3 years, and I know all his ex girls, so there is no way he can lie to me).

  40. Zahra says:

    Islam is the most beautiful religion. I dnt know how I'd live witout Islam:reading Tina's story and the hatred she has against Islam is really sad. I hope you guys realisse what kind of religion Islam is be4 it's too late.

  41. Mohammed Sharif says:

    I'm a muslim, and I say the same to my girlfriend, reason being that I love her and don't get me wrong I would be overjoyed if she joined Islam but I'm not gonna force her into something she doesn't want., and at this point I won't mind marring her even though she's a christian, but it would make things more simple if she was a muslim from my point of view.

    Also, I'm not sure if this is only because I was upraised in Canada anymore, but I'm against violence to women, my father is too (even though he is from a arabic country, born and raised) and that's how I believe it should be.

    And yes, there is alot about Islam I have yet to learn, but I know for a fact your being baize against Islam and that if you truly think Islam is bad then go ahead to prove it to me, talk to me, have a debate, whatever you want, and in the end I know for sure Islam will come out on top.
    (by the way, I just became an adult so even when talking to me please be patient with me.)

  42. I simply couldn’t go away your web site before suggesting that I really enjoyed the usual info a person provide in your visitors? Is going to be again often in order to check up on new posts

  43. John K says:

    You have not proved anything you have written at all. This site is full of articles and references full of proof. You don't read articles. You come to impose Muslim supremacy and perform verbal jihad of insulting others. You resent being called a barbarian and a savage, but you behave like one. I don't know what else I can do to help you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't push him in.

  44. Comment says:

    No,we don't know nothing,infect i dont even know my name,even this site is for nothing,its just a game,ok,u muslim's know everything,we are just half crazy,so when are u starting ur tuition to teach me?

  45. Job says:

    Correct

  46. JSOP says:

    You claim to know Islam yet show no knowledge of Islam, many have pointed this out and have proven your claims as wrong

    If your claims are indeed ''true'' as you claim why would you need to lie, half quote and say the Quran says one thing yet infact it says another

    Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein, and whoever recommends and helps an evil cause shares in its burden." (Quran, 4:85)

    Those who wish to truely know Islam I say to you do not take all the misunderstandings and lies about Islam as fact or proof when many have pointed out this prove is far from truthful

    Do not jump to the conclussion that Allah is the devil and believe all the lies about Prophet
    Muhammad ( peace be upon him)

    Do not claim that all Muslims are violent and savage as this is not the case get to know the Muslim people rather then jumping to the conclussion that bigots racist and Islamphobs are say about Muslims which are doing no wrong at all

    I say to you all to learn Arabic, read the Quran and read and study Islam yourself

    Whoever wants to be a leader should educate himself before educating others. Before preaching to others he should first practice himself. Whoever educates himself and improves his own morals is superior to the man who tries to teach and train others.

    When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favorable view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter. Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and truthful evidence [24/12-13]

    This will be my last post on this site

    He who know not the truth pretended to posses it, he who never so much as described it adorned himself with it: he who had it much upon his tongue denied it with his acts and he who displayed it in his expositsion concealed it by his true conduct. That which was not of it was intoduced into it, that which which was not in it ascribed to it: its truth was made false and he who knew it called ignorant.

    But he who had experienced (the truth) drew apart, being jealous for it : he who had described it was silent, being envious for it. So the hearts (of men) fled from it, and the souls departed; science and its people, exposition and its practise, vanished; the ignorant became the scientists, and the scientist became the guides.

    -JSOP

  47. Comment says:

    Did I say Islam is religion of Peace?,John wear your glasses properly,

    here's a surah from Creanisist's Chapter 1 Verse 50000000

    "Oh you Who Dis-Believe,hate Islam,as you hate,Satan,surely Allah is the best of the hater's"

  48. John K says:

    Stop saying Islam is not a Religion of Peace ® or we will kill you.

  49. Comment says:

    right

  50. Comment says:

    read sura tawba,a good example of how allah use to get angry on non-beliver,

  51. Comment says:

    Oh so muhammad was not an angry guy,do you know how muslim's fight?,wow,they are crazy,sorry to say,but its u,who needs hidayah or whatever……..

  52. Comment says:

    I believe there is no such thing as religion,we should guide Muslims instead of fighting with them,and if they don't want to listen to you,just leave them on their way,let every one live,and you live to.Peace,As long as they worship Allah,they will never become human's.They will just fight light barbarians and try to kill you,YES!,if you say something against their god,they will…..

  53. lucy says:

    Tina, if you go to egypt you will have to sign some papers there in arabic. one of them may be a marriage contract. once that is done, you will have no right to leave without your husband’s permission and as a non muslim, you will have even less rights than a muslim woman over your life or any children you may have or anything. this has happened to more than one woman over the years. your boyfriend might not be planning this but once back with his family he may be persuaded to trick you into it. do any debating you need to by correspondence and without going there.

  54. John K says:

    There is no writing against Islam without any proof. You are talking without any reading of proof. Read some articles around this site, but get a quick introduction to the proof here:
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-cha

  55. Mohammad says:

    Hi,
    Why you all are confusing her, and making doubts in her mind.
    I read Mr. Ali Sina Reply to Ms. Tina and i observed that he is only trying to conveying her to left that man.and Mr.Ali writing against Islam without any proof.
    I only say to you Ms.Tina Listen to everyone but decide yourself don't look anyone, if you want to know Islam read Islamic Religios books and that are: Quran and Hadith. Read these books yourself ( its available in many languages) and if you need help then take help let me know, my email is [email protected] , It will be my please if i can help you. and in last your life is only your so make you own decision.

    Take care yourself
    Bye

  56. John K says:

    Believe me, we have studied it more than you. You are immersed in it, so you don't even know what Islam has made you into. But your psychology follows perfectly with Quranic reasoning:

    Logic

    The Koran advances a logical system. Truth is determined by revelation. No fact or argument may refute the Koran. Logical persuasion is based upon repetition and continued assertion. Another part of the persuasion is personal attacks against those who resist Islam. The Koran advances its argument through threats against specific people and groups. If persuasion fails, then force may be used to settle the logical or political argument.

    Another aspect of Koranic logic is the use of name-calling and personal insults to advance the truth. The Koran, with its poetical language and repeated threats and physical violence, bases its logic on emotions. Although its intellectual truth can be contradictory, the contradictions do not need to be resolved. Understanding apparent contradictions is a key to understanding Islamic logic. In unitary logic, a contradiction shows the theory or argument to be false. But in the Koran, a contradiction does not prove an argument to be false. What appears to be logical contradictions are statements of duality that offer two true choices, depending upon the circumstances. This is dualistic logic.

    How do we know the Koran is true? Because it contains the words of Allah. How do we know that these are the words of Allah? Mohammed said they were Allah's words. How do we know that Mohammed is Allah's messenger? Mohammed reported that Allah said that Mohammed is His messenger. – CSPI
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/book-review/

  57. JSOP says:

    How would you know this if you do not even spend the time Studying the Quran, Culture, History, Islam Hadiths, Different sects, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Arabic

    Calling something evil before knowing what you are talking about

    Basing your ''proof'' on nothing

    Fallacy comparing Islam to a building (Also is a Fallacy by other followers on this site to compare Islam to Nazis ect)

    -JSOP

  58. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, sure, he never got angry with non believers who rejected or didn’t believe in him. He didn’t care about them and he insulted them many times, forced them to convert, threatened them and finally subdued them. What a contradiction. xD

  59. John K says:

    Look at these behaviors and tell me they mean he was never angry or bad-tempered with unbelievers:

    Muhammad was a:

    a narcissist a misogynist a rapist
    a pedophile a lecher a torturer
    a mass murderer a cult leader an assassin
    a terrorist a madman a looter
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-cha

  60. she says:

    if M was represent Muhammad, its not his behavior..he was never angry or get tempered for those non believers..poor tina..probably she's got Hidayah from Allah..but she referred to the wrong person..subhanAllah..

  61. Sanada_10 says:

    Somehow, this "solid evidence" can't be shown eh? Truth doesn't depend on subjective feeling otherwise there will be many truths lying around. o.0

  62. random stranger says:

    i feel sorry for you tina, if u believe what some of the people here are telling you. i dont know if i can make a change in your life or not, but honestly plz dont believe most of the people here. this world is full of liars so u can never be sure. even if something sounds appealing plz dont fall into their lies. plz tina just trust what you can find on your own. finding solid evidence on my own really helped me confirm my religion and i personally think thats the way to go. u never know if u r being decieved but surely have more control over urself and hopefully u can use self-control to not decieve yourself. good luck <3

  63. Hi my loved one! I want to say that this post is amazing, great written and include approximately all important infos. I would like to peer extra posts like this .

  64. Maya says:

    ohh well thank you for letting me know
    and I will help other girls 🙂 thank youu

  65. Maya says:

    i agreee !

  66. John K says:

    Love is blind. A big mistake can have disasterous consequences for the rest of your life.

  67. Reem says:

    The guy that replied is lying, im a muslim girl. i have religous parents so i know. And we are similar! we dont lie to u! all we do is show you the truth. hes just playing with your mind. GOSH! im muslim and i NEVER talk shit about any other religon. i respect them. its ur religon after all! <<see thats how we are. and then him, he comes and says we are lying and loom at me im not even sayin anything about him. well im just telling you i have friends and people that converted to islam. and they're not having any problem. My dads cousin married a non muslim and made her a muslim. theyre happy 2gether. so just dont listen to the dude stoping you from been with the one you love.<3

  68. Sanada_10 says:

    The inability of muslim to prove the burying act as historical itself is a proof. You do know how to recognize claim and fact, don't you? :p

  69. John K says:

    The words that come out of your mouth are a reflection upon yourself. No true religion from a sacred and holy God could produce the filth and vulgarity that proceeds from your mouth.

    Muhammad's first wife was a successful businesswoman. There is no evidence that women were not desirable in pre-Muslim Arabia.

  70. rahim says:

    Ali sina is such a dumb ass, he made a claim in his answer. which says "Let us say they claim Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and Muhammad elevated the status of women. Both these claims are false."
    but did't bothered to prove it. All wrong practices which muslims do does not mean that is teaching of islam. Ali sina is such a idiot.

  71. Ali Sina says:

    Hi Maya, You should now get active and help other girls to not fall into that trap. Muslim men have destoryed many, many lives and they don’t feel any remorse for it. After all you are a kafir and don’t deserve to be treated well, they think.

  72. Maya says:

    I agree on every single thing you wrote. I used to be with a muslim, but then I dumped him because I was was putting myself in danger, considering how the relationship was secretive and my family was completely against us being together, and I realized it was the best decision I ever made even though I still had a rough time letting go. He was too religious and I'm born christian, but I don't practice it. Of all religions, his is the one I hate the most. It is incredibly degrading to women. He'll probably go look for a girl who would love to have him treat her like she's nothing. I feel stupid for even having considered him. I don't blame myself for letting it happen because I am 18, he was 23 and he was the first guy I had ever been with. I'm just glad it's all over now and that I've moved on. There are plenty of amazing (and non-muslim) boys out there that I'm sure will please me as much as he did, if not more.

  73. Sanada_10 says:

    It's no use to ask this auntie. She run from my above post too. :p

  74. John K says:

    This is very dangerous. There are too many tragic stories of men who left their religion for love, even moving the US to get away from Islam, and later regretting it and destroying the family.

  75. Desi says:

    Dude, seriously I'm dating a muslim guy too and he can't even tell his parents that he's dating me or he'll be disowned. The fact that he keeps up a relationship with her is an indication that he is ready to compromise his beliefs for her. In my opinion, they just need to talk and set some ground rules. Concerning kids, I would say that if you in fact end up having children with this guy let them decide what they want to believe in, do not force any type of belief on them, for all you should care they can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which is an actual religion. And I can tell you from experience that if the guy is ready to date her, he'll be ready to give up his other ridiculous requests like believing in God soon too.

    See ya laterz,
    XOXO

  76. scrutator says:

    @ ABDULLAH IHSAN

    You wrote :"……. how Rasulullah tried to establish a society comprising Muslims, Christians, and Jews in which every group was free to practice their religious conducts……."

    If the above is true, how come towards the end of his life Muhammad said the whole of Arabia ought to be cleansed of Jews, Christians etc., and only muslims should live there ?

    A later "rightly-guided" Caliph implemented this order of Muhammad !

    Check your facts before writing them !

  77. Sanada_10 says:

    This is for bmt, a finisher for you:

    Bmt, there is no use trying to cover obvious error like this especially when you keep ignoring the other verses that clearly false. You were too concentrated with the shape of the earth and didn’t deal with other creations within the process.

    Tell me, what is mountain and hill exactly? Q 78:6-7, 79:30 and 32:

    Yusuf Ali:
    Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
    And the mountains as pegs?
    And the earth, moreover, hath He extended [to a wide expanse];
    And the mountains hath He firmly fixed;-

    Pickthall:
    Have We not made the earth an expanse,
    And the high hills bulwarks?
    And after that He spread the earth,
    And He made fast the hills,

    Shakir:
    Have We not made the earth an even expanse?
    And the mountains as projections [thereon]?
    And the earth, He expanded it after that.
    And the mountains, He made them firm,

    Hilali & Khan:
    Have We not made the earth as a bed,
    And the mountains as pegs?
    And after that He spread the earth;
    And the mountains He has fixed firmly;

    Muhammad Asad:
    HAVE WE NOT made the earth a resting-place [for you],
    and the mountains [its] pegs?
    And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse
    and has made the mountains firm

    Arberry:
    Have We not made the earth as a cradle
    and the mountains as pegs?
    and the earth — after that He spread it out,
    and the mountains He set firm,

    Saheeh Int:
    Have We not made the earth a resting place?
    And the mountain as stakes?
    And after that He spread the earth
    and the mountains He set firmly

    Rodwell:
    Have we not made the Earth a couch?
    And the mountains its tent-stakes?
    And afterwards stretched forth the earth,
    And set the mountains firm

    Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute:
    Have We not made the earth a cradle,
    and the mountains pegs?
    and after that He spread out the earth;
    and has set firm the mountains

    Ibn Kathir:

    (Have We not made the earth as a bed,) meaning, an established, firm and peaceful resting place that is subservient to them.
    (And the mountains as pegs) meaning, He made them as pegs for the earth to hold it in place, make it stable and firm. This is so that it may be suitable for dwelling and not quake with those who are in it.

    It already has been mentioned previously in Surat Ha Mim As-Sajdah that the earth was created before the heaven was created, but it was only spread out after the creation of the heaven. This means that He brought out what was in it with a forceful action. This is the meaning of what was said by Ibn `Abbas and others, and it was the explanation preferred by Ibn Jarir. In reference to the statement of Allah,
    (And the mountains He has fixed firmly,) meaning, He settled them, made them firm, and established them in their places. And He is the Most Wise, the All-Knowing. He is Most Kind to His creation, Most Merciful. Allah then says,

    Ibn Abbas:
    Allah then mentioned the blessings He bestowed upon them, saying: (Have We not made the earth an expanse) and a place to sleep,
    (And the high hills bulwarks) for it so that it does not sway?
    (And after that He spread the earth) even then He spread it on the water; it is also said: 2,000 years after that He spread it on the water,
    And He made fast the hills) and He made the mountains firm,

    Jalalayn:
    And He it is Who spread out, extended [flat], the earth and set, created, therein firm mountains and rivers,
    And the earth We have stretched it out, spread it flat, and cast therein firm mountains, lest it should sway beneath its inhabitants,

    As far as you can see you can’t find any egg shape in these scholars’ works. Maybe I need superman to see it? All of these men were bad translators and interpreters, eh? And that’s because they didn’t help you adapting the scientific fact. Anything that makes Quran looks bad must be bad, hm? What kind of thinking is this? Why don’t you use simple translator to know it?

    The magic of copy paste happened again. Aren’t you tired of this repetition, bmt? Posting without reading, eh? Quick tingling question, why not using Q 37:48-49:

    Muhammad Asad:
    And with them will be mates of modest gaze, most beautiful of eye,
    [as free of faults] as if they were hidden [ostrich] eggs.

    Oh, wait, the virgin is egg shaped or it has some roundness in them. Oh sure, what else would that be? This is how you connect something in order to change its meaning.

    :o.0

  78. Sanada_10 says:

    Help me infidel, help me …. :p

  79. Sanada_10 says:

    Subjective words with no proof. You should deal with misogyny first. Go to women in Islam section. the problem is not whether he's going out with her or not. It's just a trivial thing. Funnily, a muslim here said the same and she also had violated the rule in Islam too but so adamantly "defended" Islam. It wouldn't make her any less muslim, wouldn't it?

    Check the comments, it's already there.

  80. Sanada_10 says:

    Egg cannot be described with that you know. Just cite the source that stating that egg of all kinds is … sphere like you mentioned here. Of course Allah who mentioned that the heaven is erected and the sun and moon can be folded up had no idea about sphere. That’s why he never mentioned it. That’s why I proposed to round objects like sun and moon but you didn’t respond.

    Nope, if god described the earth as round it would be accurate coz the earth was never like egg. Look at my copy pasted post first. I know you didn’t read it. This is not the contest of copy paste. Ostrich egg is not significant because it shows the activity of making the nest, not the shape of the egg and of course the shape itself is wrong.

    Of course it would never convince anyone just like any acrobatic words in other religions. You just twist and turn to suit your answer, ops I forgot, you are just copy pasting. You don’t seek the answer using the puzzle but seeking puzzle using the answer and this is dishonesty and useless. Precisely why no muslim never found the shape of the earth and had to be beaten by kafir on this one. Care to explain this fact?

    One more, you didn’t respond about the shape of the earth before that and its process in verse 47.

    Just give me a simple example of making something into egg shaped meaning that the something is actually not egg shaped but is made that way in order to be used from something that needs the egg shape.

  81. Sanada_10 says:

    Just look at you, I posted a question “why not using moon” and what is your answer? It’s just a copy paste again, wow and worse, it didn’t answer my question. You want me to read yours but you don’t want to read mine? We are not doing any discussion here since you just respond anything I posted with copy pasted material. It’s irrelevant.

    Listen, I ask again what kind of activity that can be called “making into egg shaped”? Your stones are irrelevant because it’s not egg shaped, it contains various shapes. This is what would happen if you just copied it from Islamic site. Imagine that the earth is the stone, is this process of creation correct? Hm?

    I’ll add another question. How could so many scholars miss this? How could not one of them with the exception of nobody like you know this?

    You said, “he threw it”. This is also wrong. Earth was not thrown or rolled. This is not shaping things into another form, it’s just moving it. The daha in the ostrich is not to cause an egg shaped, merely digging dirt to lay the egg. It makes flat (earth) to lay the egg (human). The ground is no way egg shaped.

    There is nothing wrong? Of course there is. By stating the obvious fact you didn’t raise any question at that particular time of Muhammad because people thought that was common sense but now you can’t do that because it only shows the ignorance. If you just state what you see then what are you, ordinary man or prophet?

    Yeah, the multiple meaning of that verse was missed by reputed scholars and I wonder why that is? It’s either they lied or you who have no reference about the word dahaha but copy pasted article. Which one? Reputed one or nobody with no clear reference?

  82. Sanada_10 says:

    You don't read the link, do you? Dahaha doesn't mean egg shaped and the activity you mentioned is hardly accurate to describe the process of the earth. So the earth is thrown in to the ground? Round stone is not made you know, it is thrown. It was already in spherical shape as if you can find that kind of stone. Do you know that the game like this doesn't have rule on the shape of stones? Just search the stone's various pictures

    Read the link from Islam watch and my copy pasted post. It's like I'm talking to a answering machine here.

    You also didn't answer my question about moon, the problem of mountain and my other comment link.

  83. Sanada_10 says:

    Latest research from where. You should give source about that.

    Flattened by its pole has nothing to do with “making earth flat”. Does human live at the poles? The verse states that the entire earth was flat in order to be used and that shape still doesn’t match an ostrich egg no matter what acrobatic words you are using.

    You are not paying attention to my post about the process of creation. Read again. Key word: Ignorance.

  84. Sanada_10 says:

    A shape of an egg is not round, it's oval and incompatible with earth. Look at the pictures.

  85. Sanada_10 says:

    Writing through phone or PC has nothing to do with copy pasted source, you know. I wonder how on earth you could connect it.

    Why do you repeat it again and not reading it? I’ve posted several rebuttal and of course questions about egg shaped. Why are you cherry picking me?

    Cite the source of your quran, the scholar too.

  86. bmt says:

    im not here to defend your boyfriend or anything that has to do with your relationship.honestly the fact that hes going out with you and propably are or were in an intimate solves your problem. because if he was so true to islam the religion that you all seem to fear and misunderstand he wouldnt even be going out with you or getting to know you unless he had ur father and mothers permission to do so and to be sexually involved with you u 2 would have to be married. lets not go too much into details here but honestly if he was more of a muslim he would have been more respectful towards you.. just saying.. and dont tell me well ive seen so many muslims do this and that cuz ive seen them too and those muslims are only muslims by name and not practise.

  87. bmt says:

    In English as you well know, or should know – a shape of an egg is described as 'ovoid' (from the Latin for 'egg'). It is a 3 dimensional ellipsoid. A three dimensional shape derived from a circle is a sphere.

  88. bmt says:

    Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[ just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].
    The Arabic words for “flat” or “level” or “straight shaped” are “sawi” and “almustavi”. There is not a single place in Quran where there is any indication of the earth being “flat” or “straight shaped”. The word “faraash” in 2:22, 51:48; the word “wasia” in 4:97, 29:56, 30:10; the word “mahd” in 20:53, 43:10, 78:6; the word “basaat” in 71:19; the word “suttihat” in 88:20; and the word “tahaaha” in 91:6, all may mean, “to spread”, “to expand” or “to extend” with slight differences in their connotations but none signify the earth being straight-shaped or flat

  89. bmt says:

    In 79:30, Allah says,
    [Transliteration] Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha [79:30]

    The key word in the above verse is “dahaha”. In Arabic, there is a phrase, “iza dahaha” which means “when he throws the stones over the ground to the hole”. The hole is called “Udhiyatun”. “Almadahi” signify round stones according to the size of which a hole is dug in the ground in which the stones are thrown in a game. “Almadahi” also signify a round thing made of lead by the throwing of which persons contend together. So there is a signification of ROUNDNESS in the root of the word “dahaha”. According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich.

  90. bmt says:

    i do have to copy and paste because i am writing most of what i wrote from my phone
    as for your arabic literature you seem to know what you are talking about but heres a little more info:
    by the wway this is also pasted from some where else.
    The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

    “And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]

    The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth

  91. John K says:

    Some Muslims are honest about these things. Problems come up when Muslims come along and try to play games to make Islam palatable for the Western mind because the Quran is based on a primitive tribal mind. As you say, it's best they be proud of what they are or leave it than to pretend they are something else.

  92. Sanada_10 says:

    Why using the complicated and easily misunderstood "egg shaped". The problem is the no earlier scholars call it that way and no words mean that way. Why not calling it "like the moon"? It would be easier. 😮

  93. Sanada_10 says:

    The word in question is the verb (dahâ). This verb comes from the tri-literal root d-h-w, and it appears in the Qur’aan in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Soorah al-Naazi`at: 30]

    This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allaah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Soorah al-Naazi`at : 31-32]

    Therefore, Allaah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

    With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

    Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg an "udhiyy". This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w – the same etymological root as the verb dahâ. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

    From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depression where the ostrich deposits its egg.

    Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh reprimand.

    In any case, verse 30 of Soorah al-Naazi`at – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allaah knows best.

    The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’aan.

    The Earth is practically a perfect sphere.

    Yes, the Earth is ever so slightly flattened at the poles, due to its rotation, technically making it an approximate "oblate spheroid", a rounded shape with a sight bulge at the equator.

    However, the difference made by the bulge is minute. The diameter at the equator is only 42.72 kilometers greater than the diameter at the poles. Considering that the average diameter of the Earth is about 12,742 km, the difference is infinitesimal – nothing at all like the shape of an ostrich egg, which is visibly an oval. The average ostrich egg is 15 cm long and 13 cm wide.

    Therefore, the claim that the Earth is shaped like an ostrich egg is not only unfounded scripturally, it is scientifically inaccurate.

    We should also take this occasion to mention that the Earth is almost perfectly smooth. Its near-perfect smoothness is not compromised by the contours of its crust. The highest mountains and deepest trenches of the crust are insignificant compared to the vastness of the Earth's surface.

    To get an idea of how insignificant the mountains and trenches are when compared to the Earth's surface, we can compare the smoothness of the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very smooth and regular. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is much more perfectly smooth than what is allowed for a billiard ball.

    Copy paste mode off …

  94. Sanada_10 says:

    No tafsir and translations call it ostrich egg.

    This is earth
    http://www.google.co.id/imgres?imgurl=http://scie

    This is ostrich egg, just like other eggs.
    http://www.google.co.id/imgres?imgurl=http://i.da

  95. Sanada_10 says:

    The egg shaped had been debunked many times in this site so I suggest you try to read the refutation first. There is no point on repeating this plus I have questions about the activity that means “making egg shaped”. Care to explain this?

    Also, read http://alisina.org/science-in-the-quran/#IDCommen

  96. Sanada_10 says:

    On the contrary, it shows what the author saw about the earth, a spacious field and flat. Common sense dictates us that anything like this must be small originally, just like you made a field to be used. You made it wide expanse. So, earth is not just flat but wide too. That’s obvious. You forgot the verse before it,

    47. With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

    The firmament aka space which is vast too was made after the earth (not spread yet) and unfortunately Allah didn’t explain its shape before that. Was it folded up like carpet?

    The mountain as pegs is another problem.

    Q 29:56 is the same, just a human view of earth. The author said it like “tall mountain” or “deep chasm”, a simple statement about nature which nobody cares or raises questions.

    You just proved that the author was just stating the obvious and forgetting the other problems.

  97. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, you quoted Q 71:19 and argued that verse 20 can erase the flat earth from it. It only shows the function of the earth to the humankind. When you see these verses you see that Allah made earth flat for human to live and in this case the earth was not flat before and of course inhabitable. This doesn’t erase that the earth is flat in the Quran.

    I can easily say that I had made the ball round so that you could play with it. Without the ball being round you wouldn’t be able to use it. So I had to shape it first to be useable.

    I suggest you don’t mention anything that wasn’t there like earth curst. It’s a human common sense to see that earth appears to be flat and all it shows was this, a human perception of earth. The verse should go like, “I made the earth round and put flatness in it so that you can walk on it” or “I made you so small until you see the roundness of earth as flat”. This is god we are talking about and he should deal it divinely not humanly.

    Earth is comparable to carpet? No, the quran refers to a carpet. What is a carpet? A place to sit and walk, a thing that can be folded, and completely flat unlike the earth's surface. This is not godly knowledge. Earth is not like carpet and certainly not spread out.

  98. Sanada_10 says:

    Are you copy pasting, bmt? Not a good way of arguing, at least, use your own mind.

  99. bmt says:

    Eggs can be described as prolate spheroids, ovate spehroids or oblate spheroids. The fact is the word used in the Quran has particular root link to an ostrich egg

    We are specifically observing an Ostrich egg which does resemble an Oblate Spheroid and NOT Prolate Spheroid. More over technical labeling is irrelevant since these are invented modern names that we ascribe to the earth. How would it make sense for God to describe the earth as an 'Oblate spheroid' 1400 years ago? Even if God were to describe the Earth as simply 'round' it would be incorrect. Describing the Earth as resembling an ostrich egg is very significant and precise as it was not only unique at the time but is still accurate and visually relevant

    Thus its not just a case of bad translation, the words in arabic have multiple meanings and all cant be used at once however deeper analysis do show that all the meanings are accurate. This however is not likely to convince the non muslim who most probably thinks the muslims are stretching it abit and using words they want to use, which is their choice and is fair enough. But to say the verses are irrelevant is incorrect, they certainly have some merit

  100. bmt says:

    The meanings all derive from the root word in arabic, there is nothing wrong with applying all the meanings especially amazing in this situation seeing as they are all true. Arabic is a rich language and words usually have more then one meaning

    The Arabic word dahaha in Noble Verse 79:30 above did have multiple meanings and uses. One of them was when one refers to an ostrich egg. Another was when referring to making something extended, spread out, stretched and/or expanded. This is an example of how Allah Almighty uses scientific notions in the Noble Quran when He talked about how He created certain things. He gave words that had multiple meanings and interpretations to them to make the Noble Quran truly be for all times and all places, and show it has deeper meanings. The meanings unravel more and more as scientific discoveries increase

    The shape of the earth being similar to an oblate spheroid [ Also according to Wikipedia: "The Earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid—a rounded shape with a bulge around the equator—although the precise shape (the geoid) varies from this by up to 100 metres (327 ft)."

  101. bmt says:

    4. Earth is geospherical in shape

    The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse: "And we have made the earth egg shaped". The Holy Quran, Chapter 79, Verse 30

    The "dahu" in the Arabic Language means to extend and even out. It is said: "daha" the thing; "yad'hu dahwan". These terms can mean he either evened out and extended it or he threw it and rolled it. It is also said: "the rain daha the stones from the face of the earth," which means it rolled it and washed it away. It is also said: "The horse passed by yad'hu dahwan," which means he is beating his foot on the ground and yad'hu its sand. Also, the ostrich's mad'hi means its laying of its eggs, and "ad'hiha" is the nest where its chicks are born.

    So as we clearly see, all of the above Arabic words that are derived from "daha" mean:
    1- To extend.
    2- To roll.
    3- To even out.
    4- Causing to become egg-shaped or creating, making or producing eggs (see the ostrich's mad'hi example above).

  102. bmt says:

    3. Earth has been spread out

    Similarly, the Quran says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.

    "And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!" The Holy Quran, Chapter 51, Verse 48

    Similarly the Quran also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:

    "Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse. And the mountains as pegs?" The Holy Quran, Chapter 78, Verse 6-7

    None of these verses of the Quran contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Quran says:

    "O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!"

    The Holy Quran, Chapter 29, Verse 56
    Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.

  103. bmt says:

    2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface

    Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

    Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Quran is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.

  104. bmt says:

    1. Earth made as a carpet

    The question refers to a verse from the Qur’an in Surah Nuh:
    "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 71, Verse 19

    But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says: "That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads." The Holy Quran, Chapter 71, Verse 20

    A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:

    "He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)…." The Holy Quran, Chapter 20, Verse 53

    The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Quran rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.

  105. bmt says:

    Allegation that the Quran says the earth is flat

    Regarding the allegation which is commonly made against the Quran, where websites and youtube videos allege the Quran says the earth is flat. The Quran does not say the world is flat.

    Once again the allegation:

    The Quran says that Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet. This gives an indication that the earth is flat. Does this not contradict established modern science?

  106. bmt says:

    ali sina.. so you claim the quran says the earth is flat you and everyone that says that is wrong.. and about this sheikh.. you have to know something about muslims.muslims follow the quran that came straight from Allah the most gracious and the teaching of muhammad peace be upon him so if an imam comes tells the quran is wrong that wont change my view of islam my faith in my religion is deeper than that i know that islam is the truthfull religion in my heart and that is the reason that im defending it. as for the proof that the quran says that the earth is oval(egg shaped) here is the analysis of the verses that you seemed to not have fully analysed and read.so here is the response to your accusations. i will paste it from a website (islamicresponse.com).
    full url (http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com/2008/07/allegation-that-quran-says-earth-is.html)

  107. Sanada_10 says:

    The Quran says what is obvious to human eyes. It's that simple. When you read verses in Quran you will find that anywhere about anything.

  108. enlightened25 says:

    "If the Quran does not say the Earth is flat why this guy says it is?" Proof science and religion are not compatible. Anything that contridicts "koranic science" is false, the muslims should just be honest and say they believe science is wrong and koran is right regardless of the evidence. They should also be just as honest and say they believe pedophilia, rape, murder and terrorism are good becuse muhammed said so, instead of lying about it and trying to hide the evidence.

  109. Ali Sina says:

    If the Quran does not say the Earth is flat why this guy says it is?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc

    Read also this article http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_c

    You will see that Saudi Arabia’s, Grand Mufti Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz, the Chancellor of the Islamic University of Medina also believed the Earth is flat. He even issued a fatwa that any Muslim who denies it is Kafir becuae he is speaking contrary to what the Quran teaches.

  110. Juste says:

    What are you saying bmt?

    Did Asma – a mother of five, and Abu Affaq – an elderly man deserve to die for speaking out their thoughts?

    And please don't raise another entirely different issue to get you off the hook. Answer me straight up. Like i said, i'm not a braindead at the mosque.

  111. John K says:

    You need to clear the blockage from your brain. Forget about the flat earth article and read the links I gave you. All the references are from Quran and Sunna.

  112. bmt says:

    I don't want what sina wrote or thinks he knows. I want what you know, ur proof. sina made up half if not all that he wrote firstly by saying the quran said that the earth is flat. Were does he come up with that .. Anyways this isn't about sina to me this is about the proof that I asked you to get me from the quran and from the sunna that confirms all that you are saying (chapter and verse)

  113. John K says:

    The first thing you should do is start by reading the articles on this site instead of reading the comments. Each article is amply annotated with references from the Quran and Sunna.

    You can also get a quick introduction here in The Challenge:
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-cha

    It has 12 sections that show the documentation and evidence that show that show Muhammad's characteristics of:

    a narcissist a misogynist a rapist
    a pedophile a lecher a torturer
    a mass murderer a cult leader an assassin
    a terrorist a madman a looter

    Click on each word for an introduction to the evidence on each attribute. You have to read Dr. Sina's book for "madman". He will send you a copy in email if you don't want to buy it.

  114. scrutator says:

    Ihsan, you wrote

    "Mecca and Medina are two of His holy cities. They will forever be in His Protection."

    Is that why infidel French forces were employed in Mecca/Medina to put down rioting, rebellious muslims not so long ago ?

  115. John K says:

    Yes I have read Quran and Sunna. Dr. Sina has read Quran and Sunna. It doesn't matter who reads them, the Quran and Sunna say the same thing. You are stuck with this evidence that makes you lose every argument. Either you know exactly what Muhammad has done and you are lying, or you haven't read your own books and you are publicly embarrassing yourself by saying we are making false accusations when your books testify that we are telling the truth.

  116. bmt says:

    R u sure about that did you read the quran and the sunna yourself did u tell ali sina to read it for you plz do not make false accusations because that's all everyone here seems to be doing.
    And as for words are meaningless .. R userious , do you know hamny people the west has assasinated just to prevent speaches from happening and causing an uproar ..
    Please look at yourselves and your own countries before accusing other people and culture of murder and all those false things ur accusing the prophet mohammed of doing.

  117. John K says:

    Muhammad was treated as a source of booty and sex slaves.

    If you would read the Quran and Sunna you would see that there is nothing honorable about Muhammad at all. Don't blame Ali Sina. He only quotes Quran and Sunna.

    Everything you said about the power of words is meaningless because killing people that insult you is an inappropriate response.

  118. bmt says:

    Ps. Sorry for spelling and grammar/quotation mistakes I'm writing all this on my phone.

  119. bmt says:

    So you mean to say words and poetry/music does not mean a thing have you seen what protests what protests can do or speeches or debates and as for music/poetry how many people worldwide are influenced by it u mean to tell me nobody can get appected by words! Words have changed peoples lives and nations altogether so again u mean to say what asmaa and abu afaq were writing and preaching wasn't an attempt to slander and provoke people against muhammad peace be upon him. And as for the story of asmaa the only thing agreed upon was that she wrote poetry and some were against the prophet peace be upon him. And do you even know why abu afaq tried to get people to got against the prophet muhammed peace be upon him its because of jealousy. Prophet muhammed peace be upon him was welcomed with open arms to madina and loved by most ahim and his companions were from mecca were treated as brothers and sisters from the people of madina and muhammed peace be upon him was so well respected he was treated as a man of great authority and wisdom. Here is another fact about prophet muhammad peace be upon him did you know that even though he was wanted dead by the people of quraish they still kept thr valuables with because of how trustworthy and honest he was. And as for ali sina he claims to say that the quran said the earth is flat ,WRONG!!!! THE QURAN SAID IT IS AN OVEL SHAPE AND THE BIG BANG THEORY IS ALSO MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ALTHOUGH WE BELIEVE ITS NOT A THEORY BUT THE TRUTH SO PLEASE DON'T TAKE ALI SINA AS YOUR ONE AND ONLY TRUSTED SOURCE OF INFORMATION.

  120. John K says:

    Okay. Thanks. I'll get back to it when I have a little more time to look at the issues again and think about a response.

  121. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, I just did her favor here, you know, to lighten her up. Everyone here know she's the one who has irrational "love".

    If you want to switch place then be my quest.

  122. John K says:

    I wouldn't embarrass Ali by calling her his lover. More accurately he is the object of her affection.

    I stayed out of the conversation as long as I did because of her clutter. If I come back, I will resume with your last response to me.

    Do you want it on the same thread, or continued in Does God Exist?

  123. Sanada_10 says:

    I'm on but is SIna's lover on too? That's the real problem. She just keeps filing that page. :p

  124. John K says:

    Yes, I've been thinking about your words on the propriety of the discussion since it is broader than just talking about one religion. It's more like a philosophical discussion in which each religion can contribute its perspective to the discussion.

    It is off-topic in Marrying a Muslim Man and more related to Does God Exist. I thought about starting a thread there, but hate to fragment the discussion. What do you think?

  125. Sanada_10 says:

    You should join the discussion in Marrying a muslim man.

  126. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, sure. It’s like you came out of nowhere and shouting that other religions were wrong to everyone, cursing, insulting, and telling people that your way is the only right one without any proof. The mere criticism of Muhammad had done is not an attack but a reaction. People in Arabia were used to write poetry to express their feeling. Today, we have newspaper, internet, etc. The only legitimate act to counter this if you are in the right side is to write another poetry showing your innocence and righteousness, not to mention if you have divine assistant. Assassination is a coward act. You can’t refute intelligently and choose the short easy way to deal with that. I feel angry, I kill you. Is this good? What are you, some kind of barbarian?

    You wrote, “What would you do when someone is trying to turn the world against you?”

    You are exaggerating. It’s only a small portion of town in Arabia and it’s just a reaction towards Muhammad. No smoke happens without fire.

    You wrote, “Just look at them and watch till they knock on ur door and take ur life, you like every other being on the face of the planet would defend yourself against whatever dangers come at you so he ended up ordering the assasination of.”

    Imagining things, aren’t we? Don’t write anything that actually never happened. The criticism is a counter balance for the propaganda and raids Muhammad had done. Anyway, he had Allah in his side. Why was he afraid?

    You wrote, “Abu afaq and as for asmaa her being assasinated by the order of the prophet is not 100percent agreed upon as a true story.”

    Hah? Do you think such weak and unclear statement can stop muslim from assassinating someone? There is no prohibition in the Quran and it orders muslim to kill and punish anyone who against Islam and Muhammad, a perfect example of dictatorship.

    You wrote, “The point I'm trying to make, if you as a person order to kill someone or kill someone trying to kill you , it does not make you evil or inhumane .”

    The point of yours is too vague and lack of proof. The victims of Muhammad never attack nor wanted to kill him. Do you think Ahmadinejad deserves to be assassinated too? His case is obvious unlike the victims.

    You wrote, “Its called self defence and a tactic to prevent civil war which would have taken place if those assasinations did not occur.”

    Anything that talks about Muhammad will always turn to self defense mode no matter what fact it shows. It's never about self defense in the first place. Why don’t you respond to my posts in Juwairiyah article. All his deeds were offensive including assassination. No one wanted to assassinate Muhammad in Medina. He feared and felt insecure. Anyone with divine protection shouldn’t act like this.

  127. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “I will tell you exactly why he mentioned blood circulation he is proving to you that thr is a god a divine being that controls everything and and without him nothing can happen.and that allah the almighty has always been there and has created everything and nothing happens excpet if he wills it.”

    Err, that’s what I’ve been doing all this time, testing Allah’s legitimate position as a god using his own words in the Quran. It’s obvious that you didn’t read my other posts about this judging from your repetitive post similar to this auntie. She’s not proving anything here she just mentioned a fact and tried to mix it with her belief, an unproven one. Blood circulation is real as we know it but it doesn’t take a personal god to do that, just like any incident in this world be it good or bad. It’s just the law of nature.

    The identity and nature of “god” is confusing if you insist the version of your god, I’ve done that in another article. Care to join?

    You wrote, “For everything thr is a beginning and an end except for allah .”

    Oh, this is old belief and of course this creates another problem. How do you define something that has no beginning or end? How can an entity like this behave just like a creature who has a beginning and an end?

    You wrote, “U and every other being has a life span whether you are a human a tree or a spring of water.”

    We all know that and still, it doesn’t give Allah any credit. Tell me, what is good and evil?

    You wrote, “You wr created of nothing And you will return to being nothing.”

    May I know as to why Allah created me or other critic of Islam? Why did he create America? Why did he create other religions?

    You wrote, “Now tell me one scientist or inventor or anyone that was capable of creating anything without using material that was already thr .”

    That’s the exact problem I’ve been asking to the auntie who you’re defending here. In Q 23:14 it states Allah as the best of creators and mentioned a creation process which no human can do. I call it a blunder.

    You wrote, “The way I think of it is that I was born and before me was my father and mother and before them thr parents and etc till u get to a point of beginning but ask yourself were did that first human come from . Evolution .”

    Yeah, evolution is a scientific theory not a religious belief. It’s a process of selection. Before you stated on Adam, I think you should prove his existence first, including the presence of giants.

    You wrote, “Alright so if u believe so then ask the same question again and wre did the first ape come from. If you can't answer this question then how dare you question allahs existence”

    Oh, do you always think everything must be defined by believing? Is it a sign of knowledge or ignorance? First of all, I don’t know the answer for this one because we haven’t found it, second, this fact doesn’t relate to Allah’s presence. You have to see what kind of being and what knowledge does he have in order to know if Allah is the real deal, not just born from a man’s mouth. To know what I don’t know is knowledge, to believe what I don’t know is faith.

    Is it importance to know the origin of the universe? Yes or no? Why doesn’t god tell us?

    You wrote, “As for you non muslims who puts the bs in your head that muslims beat thr wives or force anything upon thr wives.”

    Talking about BS, I did mention several BS in Quran that indicates the falsehood of Allah as a god. If Allah was a human everything would fit into places. The misogyny is in the Quran and sunnah. The proof can be read in this site.

    You wrote, “And yes we tell our daughters to wear the hijab but thats our way of raising our kids we teach them self respect and now show thr packages to all the perverts out there .”

    Err, I’m not talking about culture and tradition, I’m talking about the cause behind this religious act. You cover shameful part with clothes and that’s just it. Women have to do this because men can’t control their desire. It’s so easy to be men. Hey, you can have slave girls, multiple wives, kafir women, and captives.

    You wrote, “Here's a question for you y is the percentage of rape so low in muslim countries and yet in non muslim countries that's all we seem to hear about?”

    Nope, it’s not low. In my country the rape is high, in Saudi you can rape maids etc. In sharia law you can rape your wives, bring another wife, and of course most of muslim countries in middle east are not open for public information. You can’t get enough data.

    You wrote, “A word to the wise think before you speak”

    I did, but did you? So far I see no refutation about Islam here.

    PS: Islam primary meaning is submission and peace only happens after Islam win. The greeting also indicates discrimination towards unbelievers.

  128. Juste says:

    Back up bmt, I'm not a braindead muslim in a mosque.
    My question was:
    "What did they do was so bad that Muhammad had them murdered? And did they ever at one instance caused Muhammad a clear and present danger?"
    It was a single poetry by each poet respectively. And you said:
    "What would you do when someone is trying to turn the world against you?"
    The whole world?
    What happened to your fair judgement, Muslim?
    In this day and age, we call that criticism.
    I suppose you must think that Ali Sina deserves to die too for speaking out his thoughts against Muhammad huh?
    Not 100% agreed? But it was agreed nevertheless though.

  129. John K says:

    Good and Evil are the results of individual choices. God is not the creator of evil, but is the defender of good. Satan is a person who chooses and promotes evil. God can resist Satan, but not change him or make his choices for him.

  130. John K says:

    bmt wrote: "Alright sir so u claim to know more about my religion than I do please be kind enough and teah me what you know and get me facts I want historical events that muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him)has done something so cruel and inhumane that made u consider him evil"

    The information has been amply laid out for your convenience on this site. You should spend your time reading all of the articles here to get acquainted with the material before visiting the comments sections.

    You can also get a quick introduction to the evidence on each of Muhammad's attributes by clicking on the words in The Challenge, which gives quick references from Quran and Sunna that show that Muhammad was:

    a narcissist a misogynist a rapist
    a pedophile a lecher a torturer
    a mass murderer a cult leader an assassin
    a terrorist a madman a looter
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-cha

    To get the material on "madman", or in other words, about his mental disorders, you have to read Dr. Sina's book. He will send you a copy in email if you don't want to buy it.

  131. bmt says:

    Attacking or hurting a person can be done in more than just one way and both asmaa bint marwan and abu afaq were both trying to hurt the prophet of god they were not trying to hurt him themselves physically but instead they would write poetry and speeches to provoke people against him to a point were they were telling people to kill the prophet. What would you do when someone is trying to turn the world against you? Just look at them and watch till they knock on ur door and take ur life, you like every other being on the face of the planet would defend yourself against whatever dangers come at you so he ended up ordering the assasination of. Abu afaq and as for asmaa her being assasinated by the order of the prophet is not 100percent agreed upon as a true story.
    The point I'm trying to make, if you as a person order to kill someone or kill someone trying to kill you , it does not make you evil or inhumane . Its called self defence and a tactic to prevent civil war which would have taken place if those assasinations did not occur.

  132. Indian_Girl says:

    Well if a model of car continues to be involved in accidents for 1400 years surely we will blame the car.
    About Satan, I was always curious to know, if God created everything, why did he create Satan?
    In my experience, many people find solace after joining a cult, not just Islam. Some people like to be absolved of the burden of taking decisions. I think the absolute surety of Islam that if you follow these points, you will be in paradise and if you don't you will burn in hell. The problem arises when these teachings directly affect the lives of people outside the cult.

  133. Juste says:

    Why did Muhammad had Abu Afaq – a very old man and Asma Marwan – a mother of five asassinated?
    What did they do was so bad that Muhammad had them murdered? And did they ever at one instance caused Muhammad a clear and present danger?

  134. bmt says:

    Alright sir so u claim to know more about my religion than I do please be kind enough and teah me what you know and get me facts I want historical events that muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him)has done something so cruel and inhumane that made u consider him evil . And please do not tell me alqaeda who claim to be martyrs and are killing in the name of god because I do admit they have killed many innocent people and islam has never mentioned killing of innocent people and has actually forbid the killing of women, children and the elderly.
    And by the way the name Alllah comes from the word ilah which means god in arabic and god is also called the creator , the merciful, the king, the divine , the graceful, the peaceful , etc.. These names and more graceful names belong to god (allah) .
    Salam.

  135. John K says:

    Believe in a God if you want, but he is not Allah. There is ample proof here that Allah is a fraud of Muhammad.

    Please do your homework and read your Quran, Hadith, and Sira before you talk nonsense about Islam.

  136. bmt says:

    I will tell you exactly why he mentioned blood circulation he is proving to you that thr is a god a divine being that controls everything and and without him nothing can happen.and that allah the almighty has always been there and has created everything and nothing happens excpet if he wills it. For everything thr is a beginning and an end except for allah . U and every other being has a life span whether you are a human a tree or a spring of water. You wr created of nothing And you will return to being nothing. Now tell me one scientist or inventor or anyone that was capable of creating anything without using material that was already thr . The way I think of it is that I was born and before me was my father and mother and before them thr parents and etc till u get to a point of beginning but ask yourself were did that first human come from . Evolution . Alright so if u believe so then ask the same question again and wre did the first ape come from. If you can't answer this question then how dare you question allahs existence. As for you non muslims who puts the bs in your head that muslims beat thr wives or force anything upon thr wives. And yes we tell our daughters to wear the hijab but thats our way of raising our kids we teach them self respect and now show thr packages to all the perverts out there . Here's a question for you y is the percentage of rape so low in muslim countries and yet in non muslim countries that's all we seem to hear about?
    A word to the wise think before you speak
    And please do you homework on islam before you talk bs about it
    Salam(peace)
    Ps. Maybe you guys shud also know that salam meaning peace is a way of greeting between musilims. t

  137. Denny says:

    abdullah,

    one more time I tell you: The very basic teaching of muhammad is very evil. The foundation of his teaching is very corrupt. So every other rules which was built on top of this foundation is only lies. It is a lies created on top of other lies.

    It is like the big tower building. If the foundation on the basement is very corrupt it will not support the whole buidling. The more high you build the tower, the more easy it will break or fall apart.

    Your topic about heejab or nikah is nothing if the foundation of the teaching is very corrupt. It is like you tried to give a new paint to the corrupt building. It will look good from outside. But inside is very bad, only a matter of time before the whole building fall apart.

  138. Denny says:

    abdullah,

    in this discussion nobody cares nobody cares if muslim man can date or not. nobody cares if man and woman can have phone conversation or not. nobody cares about that rules.

    by the way, everybody , including you , agrees that this man is not good enough to be a boy friend. we are not interested in discussing whether he is a good muslim or not. that is no point at all. The whole web site is dedicated to tell every body in the whole world to know that muslim and muhammad is very bad in every aspects, because the core of its teaching is really evil.

    if the core of muhammad teaching is very evil, there is no point at all to share your opinion about heejab about halal or haram, etc. what is the point. Nobody would listen. I believe Sina understand it very much about heejab or other thing, even I knew even though I am not muslim, but, one more time, what is the point to discuss ?

    It is like you try to shift the discussion to another topic. I tell you the truth this is what Ali Sina advised her: "don't ask advise from a muslim people, do not discuss this with your muslim friend.
    One more time you gave proof to us.

  139. Sanada_10 says:

    Yo, runner ihsan, still think that muslims waged self defense war?

    Bukhari 4.386:
    Narrated Jubair bin Haiya: `Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to FIGHT the pagans. When Al−Hurmuzan embraced Islam, `Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to INVADE." Al−Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the ENEMIES. of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, `Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An−Nu`man bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty−thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al−Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "WHO are you?" Al−Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to FIGHT you till you WORSHIP Allah Alone or give JIZYA (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:−− "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life (read: earthly desire) as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your MASTER." (Al−Mughira, then blamed An−Nu`man for delaying the attack and) An−Nu' man said to Al−Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday). – Emphasis is mine and running away is yours.

    It’s funny to read that the supposed “attacker” asked the identity of the supposed “defender” and that “defender” gave the reason for fighting while the “attacker” didn’t. Well, muslim’s brain cannot fathom this at all because of their blind devotion and affection to Islam. The blatant example is you, auntie. Why will you do? I bet you just run again as usual, am I right or right? Come on, have some guts and answer my huge unanswered questions. Be brave at least once if you ever know the meaning of it.

  140. Sanada_10 says:

    Where is my answer? Apply that to Islam and see for yourself, auntie. Since both religions were older than Islam it made Muhammad as false prophet, not to mention the copied teaching. Haven't read the article about that here, eh? I know you haven't commented on it..

  141. John K says:

    "Is that… all there is… to a party?"

    Well, I guess devout Muslims aren't allowed to listen to music, so you wouldn't recognize the Peggy Lee reference.

  142. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    Is that it?

  143. John K says:

    If you believe in God, then you cannot believe Jesus' teachings are wrong whether you are Muslim or Christian.

    You are a hypocrite auntie.

  144. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Am I?

    Miss Agrecean said:

    “when Jesus was born into this troublesome world, Islam does not exist at all, not even after Jesus died, rose again and ascend to Heaven. So, how in the world, can you believe that your dead idol, Muhammad ibn Abdullah, the founder of Islam and his Quran could be trusted?”

    Reading her sentence, a Hindu who doesn't believe in Jesus would easily say: when Karna, Rama, and Krisna had already played their roles in the world, Jesus was not even born yet."

    So…

    Can anyone assume that because Jesus came LATER than the three famous men, then Jesus' teachings must be wrong?

  145. Sanada_10 says:

    Yo, auntie, since when you started to use this "historical" argument? Why don't you use that to Islam too? It has many copied stories and concepts.

  146. John K says:

    I thought you believe in faith? So why are you now starting to sound like a kafir scholar talking about critical studies?

  147. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Agracean

    If you relied on that seniority-based argument, the Hindus and Budhist would claim the same as to Christianity, not to mention that the concepts of man born without a human father (Karna) and man as God incarnations (Rama and Krisna) were previously told in the Hindu-related stories.

    Can the Hindus then say that Christianity copied the ideas from Hindu's teachings?

    Please explain. 🙂

  148. Sanada_10 says:

    Tell me something I don't know about this auntie.

  149. Sanada_10 says:

    US? Why do you even use only one country? Divorce in Islam is depended on man and polygamy can make men bring another wife to avoid divorce, leaving his other wife in miserable condition mentally. Beside, in Islam, women are financially depended on men, making divorce is hardly their choice. They can only submit to their husband no matter how bad the marriage is.

    There is no point on continuing the marriage if the happiness isn't there but Islam doesn't care about that and stick to the man's view of happiness.

    Do you care on "women", "individual freedom" and "happiness" or "subjugation"?

  150. Sanada_10 says:

    Repeated material. Read the whole sentence and you can see why he did that. This is specific incident not regular. Now, show me that this "prostration" happened regularly and done by Jesus.

  151. Sanada_10 says:

    That is answered. His method of prayer is different and happened only in certain situation. No one is lying except your brain because you can't see the difference between "special" and regular situation.

  152. Sanada_10 says:

    Fell on his face = despair, distressed, etc. No matter how you twist it this won't even change to "regular style of prayer". Similarity debunked

  153. Sanada_10 says:

    Laughing is a sign of desperation. My questions are still unanswered. You came here to defend Islam not laughing when cornered.

  154. Sanada_10 says:

    Both of it is faith and belonged to different concept. If Christianity is correct, Hinduism is not, if Hinduism is correct, Christianity may or may not be correct. Hinduism is more flexible than Christianity.

  155. Sanada_10 says:

    None of them are correct because that's just faith. If god wanted to incarnate he should be able to do it and if he wanted to have human children (like Hercules) he too should be able to do it. If he decided to do both he should be able to do it. God can do anything in believer's eyes or can he?

    Come one auntie, answer my 4 points about Jesus. Why do you keep running away? Don't ask other to be smart while you yourself don't have smart answer on this one.

  156. Agracean says:

    Hi Mr Abdullah ihsan, when Jesus was born into this troublesome world, Islam does not exist at all, not even after Jesus died, rose again and ascend to Heaven. So, how in the world, can you believe that your dead idol, Muhammad ibn Abdullah, the founder of Islam and his Quran could be trusted? For goodness sake, you have to start to doubt everything Muhammad ibn Abdullah ever said and then, you'll find out the the truth that he had lied from the first page of the Quran to the last page of the Quran.

  157. Juste says:

    Here’s another secret for “Successful” Islamic Marriage:
    (Abu Dawud 11/2142).
    “Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife”.
    Nice huh? Beating up women and get away with it.

  158. Juste says:

    Amazing! An entire single comment posted just to say ha ha ha.

  159. Juste says:

    Watch John’s posts and mine (and Sanada). I understood, whay can’t you? THINK. Use that something that you have not been using in a long time.

  160. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Can you describe 'fell on his face'?

    OR

    'quickly bowed with his face to the ground'?

    If you know how to explain Jesus' position in your smarter English, then please do…

  161. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    ha ha ha

  162. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    Where is my post state the bible lied? How did you come up with such conclusion? Maybe you are not paying attention enough. NOW READ AGAIN AND THINK.
    The only one here who has been lying is you all along.

  163. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    My last post is clear enough. Pay attention to it. For example, a male muslim does not have to divorce his wife to marry another. Islamic marriage is a crippled system.
    Now i ask you. If the priviliges of a muslim male is taken away, do you think Islamic marriage will be lower than US.? Think.
    Remember, only Islam allows muslim men to divorce muslim wives by a simple cellphone text message or email.

  164. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    So you are saying that the Bible lied?

  165. Juste says:

    Sorry, can’t help you on faith-based arguments.
    I only interested in what Muhammad as the prophet of Islam did and said that make up the conduct of muslims as the consequences.

  166. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    And why does this logically correct way produce a high percentage of divorce, Mr Smart?

  167. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    So, perhaps you can explain which of the two claims is correct, Mr. Smart?

  168. Juste says:

    Sorry Ihsan,
    A lion can not tell a man to be smart. Lions do not understand the concept of smart.
    Same to a muslim who tells a non-muslim about the concept of good and evil. There is no way for a muslim to understand it.
    John is a Christian. And he understands Jesus and Christianity. But if suddenly you go on asking John about Rama and Krishna, considering John’s belief, would he be able to understand Hinduism? He might not be familiar with it (being a Christian that he is).
    That is why i said:
    DON’T WANDER OFF TOO FAR. REPLYING SOMETHING WITH ANOTHER THING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT IS A FALLACY.
    BE SMART.

  169. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    No, Juste.

    It is me who asks you to be smart.

    John argues that only Jesus is begotten of God.

    It means what? If all of us were to assume that God can be seen in human form, then it should be Jesus.

    But then we look around and say: Hey, there is a different claim in Hindu.

    If we were to assume that God can be seen in human forms, then it should be Rama and Krisna.

    Juste,

    which of the two claims is correct?

  170. Juste says:

    Please Ihsan,
    I caught you lying all the time. And your question, already answered by John – again. John has straighten your POV about the verse.
    READ, after that THINK.

  171. Juste says:

    Yes Ihsan,
    Logically speaking. The best way to know future spouse is to date. But Islam does not recognize this because marriage is a duty in Islam. They just married, BAM! It is not natural.
    And bringing up divorce cases is irrelevant because in Islam, Allah offers the option of “pleasure marriage,” a religious endorsement of having sex without long-term commitment, if it doesn’t work out. Practitioners of Islam are also permitted, and even encouraged, to take multiple wives, to ensure that they don’t become bored with just one. Polygamy is particularly successful in Middle Eastern countries, where the female-to-male ratio is high because men have a tendency to explode. Also, Islam makes little distinction with respect to the age of the bride. If polygamy and pleasure marriage fail to provide men with sufficient sexual options, there is always rape. Sharia law doesn’t endorse rape but ensures that, should a female rape victim report the crime, she is far more likely to be severely punished than her assailant.
    i don’t see why muslim men that are so spoiled by Islamic marriage want to divorce. Still wonder why divorce rate becomes irrelevant?

  172. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    who said:

    "Uh-oh… John, I think you just caught Ihsan lying again about Jesus had his face on the ground. Or assuming to say the least.

    Half knowledge = No knowledge. "

    Juste,

    I did not lie. 🙂

    Matthew 26:39

    King James Bible

    "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

    New International Version (©1984)

    "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

    New Living Translation (©2007)

    "He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

    English Standard Version (©2001)

    "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)

    "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

    International Standard Version (©2008)

    "Going on a little farther, he fell on his face and prayed, "O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Yet not what I want but what you want."

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

    "After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, "Father, if it's possible, let this cup [of suffering] be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine"

    Juste, are you saying these verses quoted above are unauthentic?

  173. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    Pay attention to John’s previous posts, his links and click John’s username to see that he had answer your question.
    Don’t wander off too far. Remember, replying something with another thing is a FALLACY. Understand the word Ihsan. Be smart.

  174. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    oh I forgot the comparison:

    OR

    you are saying that Rama and Krisna were just like anyone of us ( as the 'other children' of God) and only Jesus is the only begotten of God?

    Your statement sounds to us that Rama and Krisna made no distinction from any of us. Only Jesus did.

    Please explain. 🙂

  175. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    And please see again your comment about marriage:

    "This attitude is unhealthy. You cannot make a wise decision to make the best selection for a wife without a lengthy dating period that allows you to get to know the person's attitudes and behaviors in various issues and situations."

    Are u saying that dating is the best way for a selection of wife/husband? while statistic says:

    In the United States

    In 2008, 46% of all marriages involve a remarriage for one or both spouses. It is estimated that 40% of all marriages have ended in divorce as of 2008. On average, first marriages that end in divorce last about eight years. Of the first marriages for women from 1955 to 1959, about 79 percent marked their 15th anniversary, compared with only 57 percent for women who married for the first time from 1985 to 1989 (marriage average time declining).The median time between divorce and a second marriage was about three and a half years."

    I suppose all marriages there refer to those with preliminary dating…. so can you explain why 40 % of those marriage end up with divorces?

  176. John K says:

    No. Reincarnation is not a Christian concept.

  177. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    So, Mr K

    Do you agree that God had incarnated as Rama and Khrisna before He incarnated as Jesus?

  178. John K says:

    Yes. That is the reference for my other comment on Jesus stating that he is Jehovah of the Old Testament, and for which they wanted to kill him in the next verse.

    And, as he answered Moses when asked his name, "I am that Iam".

  179. Sanada_10 says:

    John 8:58?

  180. John K says:

    Correct again. Reading the Quran in historical context makes it overwhelmingly clear that Muhammad wrote it purely for ulterior motives. Having heard that the Medinan Quran is the worst part, I expected some innocent philosophizing in the Mecca Quran, but Muhammad's bad attitude is evident from the very earliest Suras.

  181. Sanada_10 says:

    It's because Islamic marriage is not based on love but duty. Relationship is meaningless.

  182. Sanada_10 says:

    Yeah, what I'm getting at is the sin of Jesus which is none and this auntie didn't dare to answer it. What is the standard to judge a prophet as an intercessor? Those narrations explained nothing but Muhammad's delusion of grandeur. From neutral view we should pick Jesus as the intercessor because he has no sin whatsoever.

  183. John K says:

    Of course, the Quran is incorrect in this matter as Jesus told the 12 apostles that they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel. See Matthew 19:28 for example.

    Again, Islam is proved false because the Bible proves Islam is false, and the Quran says the Gospels are true, and the word of God cannot be changed.

  184. John K says:

    This attitude is unhealthy. You cannot make a wise decision to make the best selection for a wife without a lengthy dating period that allows you to get to know the person's attitudes and behaviors in various issues and situations.

  185. John K says:

    "Please answer, if he is really the son of God, why did God need a human mother for His son?"

    All creation testifies that advanced life forms are the product of a father and a mother. Islam is wrong in this matter.

    I do not answer questions about Hinduism. Perhaps one of the others here will.

    I am also not here to argue with Hindus. If you want to get technical, the Bible says that all of us are children of God, so all males are sons of God and all females are daughters of God. The distinction is that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father, speaking after the manner of the flesh. He is also the Firstborn of the Father, speaking after the manner of the spirit. Hence in his spirit form he created the earth for us.

    I have already told you in another post that the Quran is false, so no data from it will be accepted in evidence.

  186. Sanada_10 says:

    Repeated material, irrelevant comparison, and evasion of questions. You can't put Christianity in the same box with Hinduism because the concept of divinity is different. Judging these 2 religions using the same "religious" standard is out of context. Btw, Khrisna is divine too.

    Answer my 4 questions about Jesus, this is connected. You clearly don't understand my point, that's why you keep repeating that verse.

  187. Sanada_10 says:

    Come one auntie, where is my answer? You are desperately trying to prove nothing here. Comparing Christianity to Hinduism is irrelevant since these 2 have different concept.

    Same question to you, if Allah is a god why did he use man to deliver his message?

    Islam want you to learn what? You don't even answer my points about that and mentioning the obvious is hardly called "learning". Now, tell me, why didn't Jesus have father? Of course that doesn't make Adam son of god because he was the first man and he had sin not to mention that he couldn't create life. Answer my 4 points regarding this.

  188. ahmed says:

    hi tina ,

    as muslims we should not date without plane to marriage, even when we date we should be following some conditions, i have a lot friend muslims and not but Muslims still the best in their character compared to the other, not like some sick haters said about us, all what they said about not gonna stop islam from spreading and every will see it clear as the sky. as advice , i think you should know what he is planning with you even he want to married to you that's good, if not go ahead with your life without him.Again a practicant muslim should not date like western people.

    good luck ahmed

  189. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    What about Jesus' Mother. Is she excluded from being an element of God?

    Please answer, if he is really the son of God, why did God need a human mother for His son?

    I don't know in the original Hindu teachings in India, but in Indonesia there is a famous 'similar' Hindu-related history called Mahabarata in which mother Kunti became pregnant and gave birth to Karna after a goddess (I heard from my childhood that his name is Batara Surya, the goddess of the sun) paid her a visit.

    Karna was also born without a human father. Can he also be perceived as God's son?

    I know that Karna is not claimed to be god's incarnation.

    But Rama and Khrisna are.

    So if you believe that Jesus is God (or God's Son) , then you will have to argue with the Hindus that Rama and Khrisna can't be God, while the Hindus would argue you that Jesus can't be God incarnation because Rama and Khrisna are (although some Hindus include Jesus as God's incarnation).

    Now, please explain to me why Jesus can be God while Rama and Khrisna (or perhaps Karna?) can't be God.

    Mr K,

    In Islam it is clear about God in Surah Al-Ikhlas (QS 112). Islam wants us to learn how easy for Allah to create a man even without a mother. Adam was even created without both a father and a mother. This doesn't make Adam the son of God. And Islam clearly tells us Jesus is one of Allah's many prophets.

  190. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    What about Jesus' Mother. Is she excluded from being an element of God?

    Please answer, if he is really the son of God, why did God need a human mother for His son?

    I don't know in the original Hindu teachings in India, but in Indonesia there is a famous 'similar' Hindu-related history called Mahabarata in which mother Kunti became pregnant and gave birth to Karna after a goddess (I heard from my childhood that his name is Batara Surya, the goddess of the sun) paid her a visit.

    Karna was also born without a human father. Can he also be perceived as God's son?

    I know that Karna is not claimed to be god's incarnation.

    But Rama and Khrisna are.

    So if you believe that Jesus is God (or God's Son) , then you will have to argue with the Hindus that Rama and Khrisna can't be God, while the Hindus would argue you that Jesus can't be God incarnation because Rama and Khrisna are (although some Hindus include Jesus as God's incarnation).

    Now, please explain to me why Jesus can be God while Rama and Khrisna (or perhaps Karna?) can't be God.

    Mr K,

    In Islam it is clear about God in Surah Al-Ikhlas (QS 112). Islam wants us to learn how easy for Allah to create a man even without a mother. Adam was even created without both a father and a mother. This doesn't make Adam the son of God. And Islam clearly tells us Jesus is one of Allah's many prophets.

  191. Sanada_10 says:

    She's beaten in that article. No need to ask this runner.

  192. Sanada_10 says:

    Both of it according to Christian doctrine. He is either man or god. As a man he did what man does in order to make an example. The problem you and Muhammad have was your perspective. If you keep using Muhammad's own judgment regarding Jesus you will understand nothing just like Muhammad who had made a mistake on trinity.

    Being "the son of god" is not impossible in philosophical sense and since god is supposed to be omnipotent it is normal to make the impossible possible including splitting itself into different forms. You don't attack Christianity from that point because it's just the same as attacking god in general. It cannot be proven nor unproven

  193. Sanada_10 says:

    Explain the prostration to Adam. This is connected, auntie.

  194. Sanada_10 says:

    You know, Quran claims to be the literal word of Allah but actually when you look at it, you will find this claim to be ridiculous. In plenty of occasions, Allah talked indirectly. Put the human author in Allah's place and everything will make sense. Hey, the full Quran was indeed historically made by human after all.

    And in the same Quran you can see Muhammad confirmed the Bible's content to justify Islam.

  195. Sanada_10 says:

    Care to answer my questions about Jesus? Those 4 points are still unanswered.

  196. Sanada_10 says:

    Auntie, according to Bukhari, when the day of resurrection happens, people will come to each prophet and ask for intercession.

    Bukhari 8.570:
    … Adam will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, and will remember his sin, and will say, 'Go to Noah, the first Apostle sent by Allah' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking', and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Abraham whom Allah took as a Khalil. They will go to him (and request similarly). He will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Moses to whom Allah spoke directly.' They will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Jesus.' They will go to him, and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad as Allah has forgiven his past and future sins.' …

    9.532.3
    … Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, 'Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by Allah to the people of the Earth.' The people will go to Noah who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' He will mention his mistake which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.' He will say (to them), 'Go to Abraham, Khalil Ar−Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words by which he told a lie, and say (to them). 'Go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly and brought near Him, for conversation.' They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by Allah.' …

    From these men, we can see all of them but one will remember their sins. Care to explain what this is? Why were other men’s bowls filled but Jesus’ bowl empty? What was the use of an empty bowl?

    Now, I see you still run from my question about this and prostration, let alone my previous questions. Why auntie? Don’t you want to shed light on these problematic issues? Those queries are legitimate and in dire need of answers.

  197. John K says:

    This is correct. The Bible is not like the Quran. The Quran claims to be the literal word of God. The Bible is a collection of histories. The word Bible means, "library". Note that Muhammad sometimes forgets he is supposed to be writing Allah's words in the first person and slips into third person narrative.

    Dr. Sina has a good explanation of the Bible in Christianity here. The last three paragraphs are relevant to this discussion:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/comp

  198. John K says:

    It's trivial because if someone falls, he will be on the ground.

  199. John K says:

    This is the incident I referred to in my original explanation that in Gethsemane he was overwhelmed with suffering and fell. This is not prostration in the Islamic sense.

    I did tell you already. Elohim is God the Father. Jesus addressed him as Our Father, which art in Heaven. Jehovah is Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.

    Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Christian concept of the Godhead, which consists of 3 beings, God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The English Bible most often translates Elohim as God and Jehovah as Lord God. Appearances of God the Father are rare as Jehovah governs by divine investiture of authority.

  200. Juste says:

    Yes Ihsan,
    I can answer that. Because your very question have been answered by John multiple times and even in different articles. Are you having difficulties reading and comprehending things?
    Sorry, Ihsan. I don’t play tu quoque with lying muslims, whatever Jesus did and said means nothing to help the FACT that Muhammad was a psychopath. The very fact that you failed to address in many occasions.
    Like i said, when you are done being a coward and jerking yourself around, please address me at:
    http://alisina.org/moon-split-or-islamic-hoax/

  201. Juste says:

    Yes Ihsan,
    I can answer that. Because your very question have been answered by John multiple times and even in different articles. Are you having difficulties reading and comprehending things?
    Sorry, Ihsan. I don’t play tu quoque with the worst liar there is, muslims like you.
    Whatever Jesus did and said means nothing to help the FACT that Muhammad was a psychopath and and impostor. The very fact that you failed to address in many occasions.

  202. Abdullah ihsan says:

    And if you are sure this text is original…. then:

    When Jesus bowed down and prayed, who wrote it. To me the verse is like a story told by someone who saw him bowing down (or falling down on his face?), not the words of Jesus' or God's words…

    You know what I mean? It's like some third party that narrated the verse…. 🙂

  203. Abdullah ihsan says:

    And Mr. K

    Was it 'fell' or 'bowed' that was the original text?

    Please explain… 🙂

  204. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    By the way Mr K,

    who had the right to erase the word 'to the ground' in the latter translations (translations right? since you wouldn't have an original text in the language it was first written?)

    If you do have the original text, which one was the correct verse? with or without 'the ground'?

  205. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    O oh you seem to know a lot about different religion, so perhaps you can explain Jesus is the son of God of he is god?

  206. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Matthew 26:39

    New International Version (©1984)
    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    Going on a little farther, he fell on his face and prayed, "O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Yet not what I want but what you want."

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, "Father, if it's possible, let this cup [of suffering] be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine."

    King James Bible
    And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    American King James Version
    And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.

    American Standard Version
    And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Bible in Basic English
    And he went forward a little, and falling down on his face in prayer, he said, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup go from me; but let not my pleasure, but yours be done.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Darby Bible Translation
    And going forward a little he fell upon his face, praying and saying, My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; but not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    English Revised Version
    And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Going forward a short distance He fell on His face and prayed. "My Father," He said, "if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou willest."

    World English Bible
    He went forward a little, fell on his face, and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I desire, but what you desire."

    Young's Literal Translation
    And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'

    So which one is correct, Jesus is the son of god, or he is god?

  207. John K says:

    Right. And yet makes smart-aleck remarks like:

    "Still waiting though.. for an answer from this ‘smarter-than-all Muslims’ guy."

    By definition everyone here is smarter than Muslim believers because the Muslims are handicapped by their blind belief in Muhammad and his Quran. Until they shake that, they won't be able to think straight.

  208. Juste says:

    Uh-oh… John, I think you just caught Ihsan lying again about Jesus had his face on the ground. Or assuming to say the least.
    Half knowledge = No knowledge.

  209. John K says:

    Where do you record Jesus with his face falling to the ground?

    Last time you asked me why God needs to pray, I asked you if you ever talk to your father. Don't forget the relationship is God the Father and his Son of Jesus Christ – a father and son relationship.

  210. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    Right, and Muhammad smooched a stone that the pagans were once worshipped. just like all muslims are doing during hajj.

  211. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    Thanks for clarifying. Let's assume that Jesus with his face falling to the ground is not prostration. But mind telling me why God needs to pray?

    Isn't it God that human need to pray to?

  212. John K says:

    "The question is, if prostration is meaningless, why is it recorded in the Bible?"

    I don't understand your question. My response did not use the word meaningless. I gave you an in-depth answer. Also, the word prostration does not appear in the Bible. But I did give you two references to prayers by Jesus.

  213. Nes says:

    You are all bloody pathetic!
    How dare you Judge anyone. Let’s judge the money scabbing Jews, child malesterer Christian priests , drug addict atheists? Anyone can be anything so don’t go judge a religion you think you know because of medusa representation.
    You are embarrassed to be w a Muslim? Then don’t date them. If thy are in the position to ask you to convert then they obviously have tier reasons and will stand by them because that is their belief and that’s not going to change so grow up
    you all make me sick, espec the main reply to the question
    Pathetic

  214. Sanada_10 says:

    You know Juste, this auntie will use any excuse she can find to avoid answering me. She even denied my evidence about Allah’s observational order. Instead of admitting the proof she chose to attack me for being proud having many references. All I did was showing a mistake in her argument using reliable source and she went wild, attacking me personally and calling me proud. If this isn’t childish, I don’t know what this is.

    The next step is predictable. Since she couldn’t refute me she chose to avoid me and using pathetic excuse, blaming me for her own childish behavior, as if I was the one who caused her to behave like kids. Blame shifting is a tool for coward and childish people.

  215. Sanada_10 says:

    1. No, I’ve answered that in indo site. It’s easy too for a god to make him as human. The point is why did Allah make him like that? There were plenty fathers around that could be used. We are not talking about Allah’s capability but intention.

    2. That doesn’t erase his weird condition that he never dies until today. Circular logic won’t help you.

    3. The creation of life is the unique attribute of god, not human. That’s why there were so many prophets who had many miracles (pretending that’s real) couldn’t do this. It is not the same with ordinary miracle. It is a creation from dead object to living creature. Could you explain why there were no other prophets who could do this? This had made him the only creator among the created beside the method of "creation" was similar to Allah.

    4. Could you mention his sin? Being unable to point out his sin means he had none in the first place. Adam, Abraham, Moses, or Muhammad had it in Quran, but no Jesus again.

    The prostration was different than muslim's. It was only happened at certain situation so there is no such thing as "good enough". Come on, show some guts here, auntie. You still haven’t answered my questions and you didn't give smart answer regarding Jesus' capability, you only used Quran so read NT about your question. Answer my unanswered posts, there are so many of it left undisturbed. Attacking me for your own behavior won’t answer it.

    How about the prostration to Adam? Can’t answer it? Or is it just your hobby, repeatedly questioning people but never answering yourself?

    Are you here just for attacking people or seeking answer?

  216. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    John had answered you on that.
    Why you keep coming back to the same answered question?
    Trying to pick up whatever left of your shatterred dignity?
    To John, don’t feed this troll. You have answered. Time for him to come up with some. He never had one.

  217. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    I posted the verses of the Holy Quran in reference to another post in need for explanations on four points:

    1. must born without father (no Jews knew or cared about that)

    Although it is true that Jesus had uniqueness at birth but the Quran also clarifies that it is easy for Allah to create Jesus as it is for Him to create Adam.

    2. didn't die or should I say, never experienced death (his tomb is empty now) and has to come back to earth for the second time just to die (?)

    It is not said in the Quran that Jesus is immortal. Jesus himself confirms that he is blessed the day he was born and the day he dies.

    3. could create life.

    It says in the Quran that whatever miracle Jesus was capable of doing was by Allah's Leave.

    4. Sinless.

    The Quran doesn't say that Jesus is sinless.

    But the issue is still here unanswered.

    I found another post in different site that says about prostration:

    If it is good enough for Jesus to do, it should be good enough for his followers. 🙂

    The question is, if prostration is meaningless, why is it recorded in the Bible?

    Can you answer that Mr. K?

  218. John K says:

    It doesn't matter what the Quran says about Jesus because the Quran is false. Besides all the academic evidence against the Quran, the Bible proves the Quran is false, but the Quran says the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God. David Wood calls this the Islam Dilemma. Here are my rough notes from the video. You can get the complete version from the video:

    "Conversations with Muslims almost always go to corruption of the Bible. Most Christians don't know how to answer. Some can talk about textual criticism and history of manuscripts, but the standard response should be, 1st, why does the Qur'an say no one can corrupt the words of Allah, 2nd, why does the Qur'an say repeatedly that people still have access to the Gospel, 3rd, why does the Qur'an command me to judge by the Gospel? It's been corrupted according to you, and, finally, I can show you textual support for the Bible.

    This is called the Islam Dilemma. There are only two options. If the Qur'an over and over again affirms the Christian scriptures, and the Christian scriptures affirm Islam is false, then Islam has a problem. Islam is false because it contradicts the Christian scriptures. If the Bible is not the word of God, then Islam is false because it constantly affirms the Bible is the word of God. So, if the Bible is true, Islam is false, if the Bible is false, Islam is false. Either way, Islam is false."

    What Every Christian Needs to Know about Islam
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKKNJ9tjo4Q

  219. Sanada_10 says:

    He had answered it so there is no need to wait. Beside, waiting that futile answer has nothing to do with my questions since it is far older than yours (it’s already posted in indo site long ago).

    You wrote, “"He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;”

    Irrelevant answer. We have to know the real attribute that was put to him before Muhammad even came with that idea. The claim of Jesus’ unique characteristic was older than that verse.

    When you read that verse you will find something really strange. Why? It’s because Jesus was never a prophet in the first place if we look at his weird condition. The real problem is his attribute. If Allah only wanted a prophet he wouldn’t need to do all of these to Jesus.

    You wrote, “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;”

    Circular logic won’t help you here. Do you want John K to use NT verses to justify the divinity of Jesus? It is very easy. You asked him for smart answer while I ask you the same. Use your own brain to answer mine. Your verse doesn’t answer the oddness I presented.

    You wrote, “(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;”

    Irrelevant. I was not talking about his mother, although this is also one of the blunders.

    You wrote, “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!”

    So? It is common that Jesus in Quran was never crucified and went straight to heaven. Do you want to convince me that he did get crucified and raised again on the third day?

    You wrote, “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.”

    Auntie, I know these verses, remember? Do you know why I don’t consider Quran as the word of god? It’s because Allah had made many mistakes in many occasions. So by quoting Quran you actually answer nothing. Do you really think I don’t even read the part about Jesus? The problem I’ve raised is not located in the Quranic claim but in Jesus’ own unique capability and identity. Such a thing wouldn’t be necessary at all if we consider Quran to be consistent in its claim.

    This verse is only denial and shows that Allah is not omnipotent.

    You wrote, “Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. (Maryam 30 – 36)”

    Again, irrelevant verse. You are just like Allah, repeating the same sentences while people have known what you are getting at.

    The rest of your verse are the same, it still doesn’t answer my 4 comparative points. Why was Jesus made like that? Why must it be that way? Why couldn’t Allah make him as ordinary human. He was sinless, remember? No prophet had that, no human naturally could do that. What’s the point?

    PS: I am still waiting my huge unanswered list too. There is a lot of homework you have here.

  220. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Someone invited me to talk of Jesus according to the Quran while I was waiting for John K to explain why the Bible says that Jesus did prostrate and pray.

    So these are what the Holy Quran says about Jesus:

    "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." ( Ali Imran 59)

    Jesus is recorded in the Holy Quran to have said:

    "He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

    And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

    (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

    So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!.

    Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute..
    It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.

    Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. (Maryam 30 – 36)

    Here are some others:

    "Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (Al Maidah 75)

    "Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’" (Al-Maidah 110)

    "And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? (Al- Maidah 116)

    "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ‘worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things." ( Al-Maidah 117)

  221. Sanada_10 says:

    Another query:

    Care to explain why Jesus in Quran:

    1. must born without father (no Jews knew or cared about that)
    2. didn't die or should I say, never experienced death (his tomb is empty now) and has to come back to earth for the second time just to die (?)
    3. could create life.
    4. Sinless.

    As you can see, prophets through out Jewish history including your king, Mo:

    1. were born with a father
    2. died and buried
    3. couldn't create life
    4. had sin

    How about some smart answers on this one?

  222. Sanada_10 says:

    1. He had answered that. It was you who didn’t want to accept the answer just like that Christian priest.

    2. Irrelevant answer, you didn’t even touch the issue. Your mosque is again and again irrelevant. Do you even know what he was talking here?

    Muhammad’s bravery? I had explained that. He was not brave auntie. He knew that he would not be killed because pagans were tolerant and had protection from his uncle. But he got it too far and didn’t expect the heat. He achieved evil by attacking all tribes who had not even attacked him, that’s simple. Back the question of “first blood” and “persecution”, coward.

    Clearly narrated hadith had been debunked and it brought down Islam more. This is exactly why I call you a kid. You didn’t even pay attention to the answer and went on repeating refuted post. Go back at that discussion and see for yourself. You failed to address the caste system which was originally made with limited infrastructure and was abolished.

    The issue of naked in hotel had nothing to do with his post. It was Maruf who questioned that and he didn’t even answer me. Moral relativism belongs to different places and ages. At the ancient Greece it was ok to get naked but now it isn’t. Why? Because human was just the product of his/.her own culture. Human feel shame about nakedness not because he/she ate the forbidden fruit but because they were accustomed to wearing clothes. If all people in the hotel are naked you will not feel shame as strong as you are alone. Feel me, auntie? This is only in your brain.

    Asahara had similarity with Muhammad in many points such as spiritual leader, mass murderer, sincere belief etc. Compared to Jesus it is bigger because your sorry brain only managed to mention “prostration”. Worse of it, it’s wrong.

    Auntie, you are so stupid because you repeated your refuted post again. Japanese and Arab polytheists were all tolerant. Both of them didn’t have problem with new religion. This is the difference with Muhammad:

    – Asahara lived in modern day Japan which had no slavery and human classes
    – Asahara didn’t insult Japanese tradition, belief and culture therefore he could continuously be accepted.

    Asahara had the same purpose with Muhammad which is “replacing the old system and establishing themselves as the new ruler”.

    4. American government engaged war with evil people such as Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Iraq etc. This has nothing to do with Muhammad. If you compare it with Muhammad you will only make his name bad because Muhammad attacked innocent people while those countries’ leaders were not.

    I’ve read it and found out that pagans were not violent in general and only occurred in isolated incident. It was their old system (slavery and classes) that did the “persecution” and mind you, this continued even after Muhammad won. How violent were muslims when no pagans ever protested about Islam before Muhammad’s bad mouth? First blood, auntie, read it. Repeating your refuted post will serve you nothing.

    5. Says the chicken.

    6. Auntie, this is the very cause for calling you that name. You always respond to people childishly. You had brought it yourself and with this particular post I know I’m right again since you refused to read my answer just below this one.

    I call “kid” to certain people, not everyone. You, auntie, are one of them while Maruf isn’t. See the difference? I’m a fair guy and I call a spade for a spade. I'm "older" than you because I never evade anything important. You? You just run from anything you dislike.

    Btw, care to enlighten me on my question about prostration? Don't pretend you don' t know it.

  223. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    1. John has answered what? He doesn’t want to touch the issue why God prayed. Still waiting though.. for an answer from this ‘smarter-than-all Muslims’ guy.

    2. It’s up to him if he called it off. Everybody is free here, right?

    The picture of the problem?

    Did you mean wrong picture? You too enjoy being fooled by your wrong picture don’t’ you?

    What happened to your ‘if I go to a mosque and advise blah blah blah…… “

    just another wasted-before-test theory?

    FYI Juste, theory has to be put on a test…. Let’s test your theory and see if you are successful. Have guts to do that?

    Rasulullah BRAVELY PROVED what he believed by appearing in public to deliver the truth and you have learned what he achieved…. You, sina? It’s the two of you who TALK ONLY

    Prithvi confidently touched those clearly narrated Islamic hadiths (still there to be more carefully traced for those seeking the truth), but clearly OVERLOOKING that her religion stories might have been contaminated with fables. I brought it up for comparisons to open her eyes. If she refuse, it’s up to her.

    Why didn’t you touch the issue where she said it was NOT OK to be naked in a hotel lobby? And what if some people more liberate than she or you love doing that?

    Not against your golden rule in whatsoever way, is it?

    Again about Asahara…

    Now what?

    Trying to say Asahara’s followers is growing in number? And who was this Jim Jones?

    I have learned that both of them were GRANTED FREEDOM to spread their teachings. What happened to their clans, Mr. Great Historian? People send sholawat for them?

    Rasulullah’s case was the opposite. Does Mr. Great Historian see how Islam grew?

    Please, stop making me laugh….

    4. American Government NEVER STOPPED engaging in wars. That’s Fact.

    And, is that all you can do, Juste? Coming to a conclusion that one is a liar? I thought you said you read a lot. Please google more on how violent the pagans were. And how arrogant they were before the wars.

    5. I did. And I will.

    6. With her attitude in conversations? No, thanks. It’s better to see you both converse to satisfy your hatred against Islam. You guys perfectly match.

    I don’t know how old she is, but she often calls those engaged in her by calling them kid. So she must be older than everyone here?

  224. Sanada_10 says:

    Look at my link addition about your behavior. Don't think you can get away with that. What can I expect from a person who can't even write the chapter in Bible correctly?

    Your were quoting Bible but do you even read the whole sentence? What is the cause of the special "prostration"?

  225. Sanada_10 says:

    Sigh, childish act again

    Jesus vs Muhammad? Done that auntie, the similarity is your delusion since there is no such thing. It is easy to say A is the same with B if you pay no attention to the differences. Why did you fail to refute my differences about that? Scared kid?

    You wrote, “He started the circling around with his 'imagination'.”

    Wrong, what he did was fact and very simple, “dhimmi life”

    You wrote, “.You did the same thing, didn't you? by trying to falsely describe Muslims outnumbering the pagans?”

    Wrong again, he already answered that’s not the intention.

    You wrote, “And by negating the fact that the pagans did torture Muslims?”

    Wrong again, the incident had been explained with fact.

    You wrote, “My answer to Mr. Loner was not even too long and was a sort of explanation to rebut what he had 'imagined' happening back then in the 7th century. That you call circling around?”

    Your answer to him was irrelevant. Look again the discussion. Just because you say something doesn’t mean it’s real. The topic is simple, dhimmi life and its differences with US student, your stupid comparison.

    You wrote, “Prithvi simply refused the fact that the Sudra had to be killed when found reading the Vedas. Do you want to deny this fact? She would deny it because she is NOT one of the sudras experiencing that threat. The restriction means what? Only a particular group of people was 'allowed' to come to know God through His Books?”

    Wrong again, you took that after the explanation of the intention for making the original caste system.

    You wrote, “When judging Rasulullah, again I suggest you that you present any other man, condition, society or circumstances that can be used as your clear standards. You can't simply say that sina has done a good job because of his analysis. He never experienced the complexities a leader has, but he claims to know a lot about being one”

    Another repetition, I’ve answered it regarding the leader. The complexity was already discussed all this long but you didn’t dare to enter it. Being the leader, Muhammad was a selfish one and aggressive to his surrounding. Come on coward, answer it. Remember, Muhammad was supposed to be the last prophet, bringing the last law and morality. Comparing with other "ordinary" leaders who were limited to their surrounding would do him no good. It only shows that Muhammad was no different than any other men in the sense of divine connection.

    You wrote, “You claimed that Rasulullah was the same as Asahara and Jim Jones, while in fact everybody can see that it is you, Asahara, and Jim Jones and people like you that DO NOT prostrate the way Jesus, Rasulullah, and Muslims do. Please read carefully: It is the Bible that says Jesus prostrated, not me.”

    All of them have overwhelming similarity. Why didn’t you discuss it while you keep pressing that Jesus was the same with Muhammad based on one common act? Double standard?

    Jesus’ prostration had been answered and it’s not the same with Muhammad’s. Man, you didn’t read anything, that’s why you are so childish.

    You wrote, “Should I respond to someone who thinks that she is always older than the person she's debating with? 🙂

    When I see a kid, I call her a kid. When I see grown up, I don’t call them that and there are plenty of examples for that (not you of course coz you are a kid). Is this simple fact so hard for your little brain? When I'm talking to you, yes, I'm always "older" than you. Now, the problem is why I'm like that? All of these had its cause, auntie. It didn't come from nowhere.

    You wrote “Do you think anyone could gain a worth debate with anyone of that attitude?”

    LOL, from the very start you had already run from me. That’s why I call you that. It’s the other way around auntie. It was your behavior that made me use that. If you can’t answer just admit it, attacking your opponent will prove nothing. You have to many excuses, auntie. You childish behavior and fallacies had already started in indo site when I debunked all your points. At that moment I hadn't called you that but after seeing your behavior couple of times, I concluded that you are childish when giving answer.

    Look, if you don’t answer your Islamic tenet is in danger and clinging on your pride won’t help that. Look at the content once in a while. Remember, it is you who made me do that. I’m just stating fact. You always get everything backward. Message doesn't get affected by the messenger and only a coward keep shooting at the messenger hoping that the message itself will be invalidated. Tell me, is this grown up stuff? By not responding to this alone makes you as a kid.

    You wrote, “Lastly, it is the Bible that says Jesus prostrated, not me, Sir. Why don't you read it for yourself? Perhaps you're smarter than Mr K to address this issue?”

    Ah, see? Ignorant words again. Bible says about Jesus’ prayers not prostration. The “prostration” happened at certain moment, not like muslim’s. I've told you that, remember? The concept and method is different.

  226. Sanada_10 says:

    He did and religion cannot be put together with science. There is no such thing as scientific answer to a belief or philosophy. You are asking the wrong number.

    Jesus' followers pray not prostrate and this has been answered. Sina analyzed Jesus based on his act not his ritual and religious conviction. He was talking about reality not a belief. He took what can be used and discarded the rest. That's called filtering.

    Tell me, where is the answer to my questions? I am not asking for scientific answer for that and you didn't dare to answer it. This is pathetic.

    Why did Allah order angels to prostrate to Adam?

  227. Juste says:

    Ihsan,
    1) John has given answers. The problem is at your end. You muslims talk a lot, but listen very little. Know a lot, but understand little. That is one of the reasons why muslims are inferior. They are not paying attention. How many times have you asked this particular questions already? On many articles. You’re a beggar.
    2) He gave it up because you went nowhere with his query. Can’t you see that? Loner’s questions and i were simple. The problem is you. You were circling around and point to nowhere. Always ambiguous, always, and in the end you lead to nowhere.
    Didn’t you read, Ihsan? Loner used it to give you the picture of the problem. I used it to arouse your logic, reason and empathy. Obviously you have none.
    3) Prithvi was saying something about the fact that caste system have been abolished in 1950’s, you went on by saying that her prayers was not the same as it was initially taught? What was that?
    The point is, you like jerking off Muhammad. Asahara was a leader. And he shares the same traits as Muhammad. I can compare Muhammad to any other psychoes in history.
    Asahara/Jones/Koresh was a spiritual leader like Muhammad.
    Hitler/Stalin was a mass-murderer/military leader/political leader like Muhammad.
    It’s true that not one of them are exactly alike, but they all share the same traits: psychosis.
    4) I came to my conclusions because you have answered NONE. What Americans did was justifiable. I’ve shown you. Were you paying attention? I guess not.
    I answered everything about Americans, you have not answer me back right?
    You know why i call you a liar, Ihsan? You always said Muhammad had reasons for doing what he did.
    The facts are:
    You failed proving me that Muhammad was persecuted.
    You failed proving me that the Pagans were violent.
    You failed proving me that his actions are all justifiable.
    What makes Muhammad? A mass-murderer.
    What makes you? A liar.
    Good news, Ihsan. You still have a chance to prove me wrong at Moon Split or Islamic Hoax.
    Like i said, your knowledge of Islam is questionnable. Proven! Who drew first blood? You said Bilal. How many died? (i don’t know). I was not talking about the war. I was talking about the persecution period.
    5) Read Anand’s last response to you. Pay attention Ihsan.
    6) Do you know how old Sanada is? Really? Sanada could be 8, could be 80. Who knows? Be gutsy a little with some answers. I think Sanada has a great amount of knowledge of Islam. You are just scared because Sanada can bust your lie wide open as soon as it comes out of your mouth.

  228. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    1. I questioned this scientist gentleman because of his claim to be smarter than Muslims. So what makes this well-educated man fail to explain intelligently why Jesus did prostrate? John's answer doesn't have to be a long essay, a brief one should be worth reading. Don't you think?
    I wouldn’t have asked this if no similarity between the two great persons were noticed. Since it is, then I surely want to ask that fact to a smart scientist.

    2. It was Mr loner who gave it up.

    He started the circling around with his 'imagination'.

    You did the same thing, didn't you?
    by trying to falsely describe Muslims outnumbering the pagans?

    And by negating the fact that the pagans did torture Muslims?

    My answer to Mr. Loner was not even too long and was a sort of explanation to rebut what he had 'imagined' happening back then in the 7th century. That you call circling around?

    3. U turn?

    Prithvi simply refused the fact that the Sudra had to be killed when found reading the Vedas. Do you want to deny this fact? She would deny it because she is NOT one of the sudras experiencing that threat. The restriction means what? Only a particular group of people was 'allowed' to come to know God through His Books?

    When judging Rasulullah, again I suggest you that you present any other man, condition, society or circumstances that can be used as your clear standards. You can't simply say that sina has done a good job because of his analysis. He never experienced the complexities a leader has, but he claims to know a lot about being one?

    For not having standards, Prithvi said that it was NOT OK to get naked sunbathing in a hotel lobby, and by that, according to brother Maruf, she surely has made her own ‘laws’. So what happened to the golden rule? Didn’t sina think that in golden rule, people are free to do as they wish even when some of them love to be seen naked in a hotel lobby…. ?

    About Rasulullah….

    If you want to touch his role as a husband, then compare him with a husband of your choice.
    If you want to touch his role as a leader, then compare him to one of world's leaders of your choice.
    If you want to compare his range of disciples, then compare to any religion founder's range of disciples (Look at the case of the sudras, and the Jews who conform to what Talmud said about Jewish against others)
    If you want to touch his role as war commander, then compare him to world's best commander of your choice. If you know what I mean. 🙂

    4. Are you a teacher Juste?
    so you have the right (like in exams) to come to a conclusion that my answers were wrong? It was you who was not consistent.

    You clearly showed your cynicism against mass murderer but looking for justification when this issue touches the Americans bombing innocent people. I know you are trying to say that the American Generals had REASONS to do that. And so did Rasulullah.

    You claimed that Rasulullah was the same as Asahara and Jim Jones, while in fact everybody can see that it is you, Asahara, and Jim Jones and people like you that DO NOT prostrate the way Jesus, Rasulullah, and Muslims do. Please read carefully: It is the Bible that says Jesus prostrated, not me.

    Or, you don't believe what it says about Jesus?

    5. Which of Mr. Anand's questions that I left unanswered?

    6. O, sanada_10 you mean?

    Should I respond to someone who thinks that she is always older than the person she's debating with? 🙂

    Do you think anyone could gain a worth debate with anyone of that attitude?

    Lastly, it is the Bible that says Jesus prostrated, not me, Sir. Why don't you read it for yourself? Perhaps you're smarter than Mr K to address this issue?

  229. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John

    So you are not that smart. 🙂

    I thought a smart guy like you could come up with better answer to explain why Jesus did prostrate. 🙂

    When sina said Jesus was a good example and his teachings were good and humane, why not his followers do prostrate as his conducts too were his teachings?

  230. Sanada_10 says:

    Add this and see the answer. The dodge ball champion did it again.

  231. Juste says:

    Face it Ihsan! Your own knowledge of Islam is questionnable. What makes you think you understand John’s?
    You were circling around on Loner’s simple question.
    Took a u-turn on Prithvi’s.
    My questions to you have gone unanswered, some of them you answered with wrong answers and lies.
    Anand’s questions was left unaddressed instead you raised another entirely different issues.
    And you ignore Sanada completely.
    Why Ihsan? Scared? I bet you are.
    Read Quran, Ihsan. Quran is ambiguous about Jesus.

  232. Sanada_10 says:

    In her case, yes.

  233. Sanada_10 says:

    Why do you keep running away, auntie? Attacking Christianity won't make Muhammad as a true prophet.

  234. Sanada_10 says:

    What's the matter? Finding the distraction so that your own incapability doesn't show? As I've told you, use other view instead of yourself. Your problem is located in your Islamic philosophy. Back to my question in the past about Jesus. What is Jesus actually?

  235. John K says:

    I think you mean that you don't understand the answer.

    Are muslimas really deficient in intelligence?

  236. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John

    You asked: "Do you ever talk to your father AI?"

    Did you mean you can't answer why God prayed?

  237. John K says:

    Do you ever talk to your father AI?

    A chemist would like to hear a lecture on quarks.

  238. Juste says:

    Ihsan, John have answered already were you paying attention? Besides, Muhammad’s allah is a different deity to the one of Jesus’. Now, instead of chasing John around and shoving Islamic lies. Why don’t you answer my questions. And Sanada’s. Like i said, stop jerking off.
    Article is Moon Split or Islamic Hoax.
    Start coming clean with it.

  239. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    And can you tell me why God needs to pray?

    An explanation from a man as smart as today's scientists is worth hearing, don't you think Mr. K?

  240. Sanada_10 says:

    If something want to be acknowledged it has to be judged based on its claim. You cannot just accept someone based on claim only. Other holy books have nothing to do with Islam. Supposed that others are wrong, so what? Islam is also wrong. Supposed that Jesus is not a god, does that make Muhammad as a prophet? I can easily say that Jesus is half myth half real which is also indicates that Muhammad was wrong.

  241. Sanada_10 says:

    Auntie Ihsan, attacking your opponent will serve nothing, attacking our argument, source and proof will. If you shrug all evidence using this childish excuse you will convince no one.

  242. Sanada_10 says:

    He also ate and slept. Do you even know what that means?

  243. John K says:

    This is the mental illness that Muhammad bequeathed to his followers. NPD and the other disorders he had are not communicable diseases, but as far as Muslims emulate Muhammad and draw near to his precepts through the Quran, they acquire the symptoms of his disorder.

  244. John K says:

    Luke 3 records Jesus praying at his baptism, and Matthew 26 records him praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

  245. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    So you're saying that Jesus did pray?

  246. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5h

    For me, I also found it is also useless to talk to you who came in here and judged the Holy Quran without reading other Holy Books for comparisons. 🙂

    No other Holy Book has that kind of junk, huh?

    Please Read them. 🙂

  247. ele5th says:

    @Sanada & John
    It's wasting time to discuss with "something" hallucinating like her. Obviously she live in her own world and had severe brain damage that keep her out of the reality. You must become perfect liar to match her. Real people will only get tricked by the way she hallucinating, it's worthless since she refuse to read the fact.

    Anyway, thank you Sanada & John, you are the real people. Keep your spirit works. I've real world to taking care of.
    Best Regards,
    5th Element.

  248. John K says:

    No real God would be pleased with anyone who takes Islam's evil teachings to heart, much less someone who actually practices them.

  249. Sanada_10 says:

    There was no debate in the first place auntie. You could only divert and evade. Other holy book are irrelevant. It won't make Islam true.

    Your soul? Is that coming from a prophet who didn't even know what a soul means? Quit the joke, auntie. There is no soul in Islam, there is only material body risen again. This stupid description only fits for illiterate desert.

  250. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    Since you said you would no longer reply my post t hen I assume you quit the debate. Thanks for your time. 🙂

    Last words for you:

    Please be a little careful before presenting your silly claim. The key is my friend: READ THE OTHER HOLY BOOKS FIRST first, then you may bring up your best arguments why you have OVERLOOKED (of perhaps purposely ignoring?) 'crueler behaviors' in those books. He he, READ THEM my friend, to every single detail. 🙂

    NO Sir, it's YOUR SOUL that is in stake. Not mine.

  251. Sanada_10 says:

    Let's predict it, she will reply using irrelevant words again.

  252. Sanada_10 says:

    Don't shout to another while you yourself don't have the honesty to answer my question about Muhammad especially when your poor post had been answered. Sure, it doesn't take a genius to read from Islamic view that Jesus prostrated including putting Mary as the goddess of trinity.

  253. John K says:

    Actually Jesus manner of prayer was not prostration. See my other post on this topic.

  254. ele5th says:

    @Sanada

    You're right Sanada. Parts of this site were blocked by Indonesian Government, by Ministry Of Communications And Informatics, Mr.Tifatul S, that coincidentally came from Islamic Party.
    The islamic leader doing preaches violence to the kafirs only to diverting moslem's focus into kafirs issue. They do not want moslems ask about islamic darkness history of muhammad.

  255. ele5th says:

    @A Ihsan
    1. Yeah, you should OPEN YOUR EYES to the world's history of leadership yourself. There are more succesfull leader of history outside islam. Read about why they success and why they failed, and you should understand what was i talking about. And put your islamic brain out of you while read those literature, I don't want to hear you claim they are moslem or you claim they are using your shariah laws ok?

    2. You say FIRST GENERATION? why first generation? it's present day we're talking about. Today in Indonesia some moslems blindly wants to replace multicultural laws with this monocultural shariah laws of the past, based assumtion that shariah laws was so successfull on First Generation?? I'm not judging islam by illusion, i simply open my eyes to see all the reality around. SHARIAH LAWS WAS OUT OF DATE – thats the truth, and you want to implement this BARBARIC LAWS into present days? Why don't you suggest to implement HAMMURABI'S CODEX instead?

    Define Islam is Humanity and justice? Yeah right, then let me rape your sister first, and let your shariah law decide to stoning your sister ok?

    3. You are not answer my statement about suppression to non-moslem in shariah country. Instead you divert this issue to other issue. SIGH..

    Muhammad was a WARLORD and KING OF ROBBERY, please compare him with Gengis Khan then, tons of similarities. Other religion does not have that kind of junk in their holy book OK?.

    4. Most of my Balinese friend do not fall to islam's love trap. Governor of Bali is from Hindu's religion. Hinduist are over 90% of population there. Most Moslems were migrant worker /visitor /local tourist there. Thats the fact.

    I hope Balinese clever enough not to let islam dominate the area. Thank to Amrozi and the gangs which destroy the peace in Bali in early 2000, lots of Bali natives know the face of islam.

    5. You didn't read my previous statement in this point. Your claim are nowhere but hallucinating beyond the real fact.

    I also read you already dissapoint by present moslem (while they claimed using the same Qoran for centuries). I know deep in you already admit something wrong with islam but you choose to cover it instead to dig it up. Shame of you. It is your soul who is on stake.

    I won't reply your garbages more.

  256. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    You said:

    "If you want to take some classes at a university, there are some classes you cannot enroll in because there are prerequisite classes that you have to take first before you are qualified .

    You do not have a level of knowledge or honesty sufficient to engage in conversation, so I won't bother with your questions.

    If you ever change your ways and sincerely want to learn something, I don't mind talking to you. But I won't talk to you while you are engaging in dishonest verbal jihad.

    I should also make reading Dr. Sina's book a prerequisite."

    Sir, I'd like to say that it doesn't take a genius to understand that Jesus did prostrate. It's written clearly.

    Now you are claiming that you are smarter than Muslims who follow how Jesus prostrate to worship his God. And you don't, meaning that you are smarter than Jesus so you refuse to prostrate?

  257. John K says:

    Right Sanada. Cowardice is a characteristic of bullies. Bullying is a cover for cowardice, fear, and insecurity. Bullying is a characteristic of Muslim supremacists.

  258. John K says:

    If you want to take some classes at a university, there are some classes you cannot enroll in because there are prerequisite classes that you have to take first before you are qualified .

    You do not have a level of knowledge or honesty sufficient to engage in conversation, so I won't bother with your questions.

    If you ever change your ways and sincerely want to learn something, I don't mind talking to you. But I won't talk to you while you are engaging in dishonest verbal jihad.

    I should also make reading Dr. Sina's book a prerequisite.

  259. Sanada_10 says:

    It's simple if you pay attention to the fundamental belief of Christianity. But, hey you don't even understand the simplest thing I've given to you. Your repeated and poor question shows that you are not smart.

  260. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ John K

    Mr. K

    So you think we are not smart meaning that you are?

    If yes, perhaps you can explain why Jesus did prostrate?

  261. Sanada_10 says:

    Just look again her recent comment in here. Notice anything I said to you including the cowardice?

  262. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, the usual irrelevant post keeps coming. Ever wonder what’s your “face” like in the mirror? I know it’s very difficult for a narcissist such as you but at least try to fix yourself and be consistent. Start to address the problem at hand and contain your silly desire to add unnecessary topic. It’s so shameful for a person who had posted the most ridiculous “david vs goliath” comparison and at the same time pointing the finger to someone else.

    Now auntie, try to answer my unanswered questions one by one (the list is huge). You love to bring new topic but when properly answered you refuse to acknowledge it. It’s like you have already chosen the kind of “answer” you want to hear and reject the one you dislike. That’s delusional, kid. I know it’s difficult for you and you fear those questions but avoiding it will do nothing at all. Is it ironic for you when you are talking about bravery and at the same time you have no idea what that word means? It's useless for you to indulge in a real debate since you don't even want to answer anything here. You'll be squashed easily in there.

    And your Zainab was already answered. You refused to read my explanation and links. Why should he respond to this silly repetition? Tell me, is mentioning simple words (not as topic) called hiding the fact? What happened to Muhammad who had seen her naked?

    As for proving Islam is fake, you are seriously deluded. Every articles and most of comments here including my unanswered post have already done that, ranged from morality to blunder. Man, you are such a clown.

  263. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    1. Sorry to turn down your invitation to go to the site. To me it looks like a forum where people love insulting each other.

    I was invited to come here by another debater in the indo site to get replies from sina, which later turned out to be big nonsense. I immediately found that sina has been hiding some facts about Zainab’s case to which I raised my questions and presented my arguments but still left unanswered to this day. He has been lying but people like you love to buy that because of your hatred against Islam.

    And don’t you forget, Sir. I have seen everybody is free to raise matters irrelevant to different articles. Sina also promotes this habit to some extent. Go read for your self. When argued, sometimes all he can say is: “You obviously don’t understand Muhammad, you should read my book.” Or ‘He is no scholar, I gain nothing from debating with him.” So what is the point of establishing this free comment section?

    AGAIN, I'm inviting you here to further explain your silly statement about Umar bin Khattab having to be SEPARATED from his great achievements in his Islamic life. And why you said his wisdom alone tops the Islamic teachings?

    But I have another clue for you:

    When his colleagues expressed how they thought he had done a great favor to Islam, the Amirul Mukminin Umar goes: "No, it is Islam who has done a great favor to me, not the other way around." 🙂

    Please say something, as you have raised the issue here.

    2. If you want to fairly judge Islam, again I'm inviting you to discuss the conducts of its first generations, not about those of today's Muslims. Can you first define humanity and justice? Clearly please….?

    3. I am not blind. Let's talk about Rasulullah and his best companions and NOT today's Muslims. If you consider your self fair, let's do it. I don't mind you presenting great people that you know of for comparisons. If you happen to be a believer of a particular religion, why not bring it up as comparisons for our further discussion? (if you dare, though, to unmask what you are)

    4. Of course, once we believe the Oneness of God in Islam, we surely deny there are many gods. The Surah Al-Ikhlas confirms it. Any problem with that, bro? But that’s not the issue. No Balinese has been reported as being forced to come to Islam. Or have you heard news that says otherwise?

    You may persuade any Muslim girl of your choice to convert to your religion. It’s up to you, but I assure you that you’ll get none but those having doubts in their own religion.

    5. Like I said, Muslims had probably forgotten how Rasulullah once told his Ummat to provide education that best suit their time, and now Muslims are trying not to get behind in technology.

    You misunderstood me. The technology belongs to everyone be it a Muslim or not. Products also need BUYERS. Humans interact with one another. The computerized field is also useless if no one uses it, remember? Too, the internet or automotive industry will suffer from great loss if Muslims stop using it, don’t you think?

    So in terms of products, Muslims and non Muslims can be said as dependent upon each other. And as such is allowed. It’s called trading. What I mean by avoiding free life is, despite the technology that we are still rather dependent upon the non-Muslims, we are confirmed that we do not want to live the way they do – free sex, heavy drinking habit, and the like. We have ways even how to pray before coming to our wives. 🙂

    Technology can also be best used for different purposes other than showing aurats on TV shows. Besides, no matter how advanced technology gets, I see that humans still consume things that are planted in and grow from soil.

    I am not negating the opportunity for everybody to do good deeds. It’s all up to one's choice. You too have your ways how you practice good deeds. But we choose to live in Islamic teachings according and up to our capacities. And we don't want to go on living freely because that what makes most of us forget that one day we all shall return to our Owner.

    Why are you advising me to live in Iran while I have witnessed that more and more females wear Jilbab in here he he . and witnessed how people start to get tired of living too freely like they used to do. Don’t be like that. It is me now who asks you why you don’t migrate to a nation that hates Islam so can satisfy your hatred towards it with some of your kind? Go get a green card in the States, perhaps?

    Sir, you can be as proud as you can be for what you are doing. Of course, almost every body is. But you came here to prove Islam is fake, so come………… present better arguments, will you?

  264. John K says:

    As far as I have observed, you are the one on this site who has posted the most factual and thorough responses and have a gift for going right to the heart of the error. As I've mentioned before, I don't have the patience to take the time to untangle these people's twisted comments, and incline, like Ali Sina, not to answer comments that are not "smart".

  265. Sanada_10 says:

    But how come this auntie's singled out me? That must means something. Sure, she uses irrelevant words when talking to everyone here but she doesn't even dare to look me "in the face" if you know what I mean.

  266. John K says:

    They do that to anyone who has facts on hand. Lies only work on the unprepared.

  267. John K says:

    Thanks. It's difficult to get information on the status of Islam in the various countries.

  268. Sanada_10 says:

    When you see Islam in indonesia you'll see a mixed, censored one. As you can see from various practice in various regions have different mixture with local beliefs. Most of the uztads don't dare to bring the real face of Muhammad to the general audience. But there are also plenty of mosques that preaches violence to the kafirs.

    One thing for sure is, true Islam will erase Indonesian culture completely. There will be no Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese etc remnants at all if Islam takes over 100%

  269. Sanada_10 says:

    I''ll add just a little bit on your no. 1. Umar was an individual and a follower. No matter how you look at it you cannot bring him in unity with Islam. Why? It's because he wasn't the prophet. Can I make his impatient behavior (he always wanted to kill everyone who disrespected Muhammad) as an example of Islamic behavior?

    The thing he'd done with Abu Bakr also put him farther from unity with Islam. Well, in some occasion, he was in fact, superior than Muhammad when advising the use of hijab and call of prayer.

    The only man united perfectly with Islam is Muhammad. Others can only do it partially, the rest of it comes from their own judgment and assumption, like Islamic sects, right?

    One more, why did you use my words? Admitting that I'm right eh?

  270. Sanada_10 says:

    Nice, everyone agrees this ihsan often posts irrelevant comments.

  271. Sanada_10 says:

    When talking to me, they always evade the issue.

  272. ele5th says:

    @A Ikhsan
    1. Well then i won't discuss it here. its will be long debate and already out of topic. i suggest you to move this topic to with new thread. i prefer to indonesia.faithreedom.org, because my english are not as good as you.
    2. Yeah, you'd rather close your eyes to the fact of inhumanity and injustice (especially to woman) of islamic laws. This and that why non-moslem called islam by deception and two faced religion. Wolves disguised as sheeps and so on. And please do not divert the subject into poverty and imperialism issue in indonesia, it's different massive topics.
    3. Yeah, moslem act as minorities there and cry for injustice because you think U.S violated their rights to make noise(?), how ungrateful they are. Why don't you point your finger issue to Iraq, Iran and Saudi and all sharia country, where minorities non-moslem there are radically banned, eliminated and suppressed by moslem to perform their religious act and force non-moslem to choose to pay Jizyah or lost their life?. You criticize small ant across the sea, but you can not see huge elephant in front of your eyes? Are you blind or what?
    4. Not forcing them into islam? Yeah right, then allow me to marry all of your sister and "persuade" her to convert into non-moslem Ok?. As I told you, Bali was beautifully unique because their native for Hindu's art and culture. When influence of islam take over Bali, it would be gone. Why? because Hinduist worship three Gods. Aren't you moslem always furious when someone worship "Three Gods"?. *wink*
    5. Empty claim? Behind technology? Moslem will not able to invent anything in technology as long as freedom of humanity are suppresed in islam. I believe you are now literate because of this freedom. The internet you're using now are because of this freedom. If you are a woman, you can write this all because of this freedom. Why on the earth you claim live freely are bad decission? Do you want to live behind mountain of weird restriction and rule like in syariah? So why dont you go to Iran and live there? it's your heaven isn't it?

    btw. Thank you for your advice, but i believes this temporary life of me must produce with good fruit not bad one, so my Creator can harvest my fruit, instead of throw me into flame. My source of good fruit are natural fertile land, not artificial land in with artificial soil and fake fertilizer. And when someday when i become old and die, at least i am proud to have benefit to my Creator and my fellow in the universe.

  273. ele5th says:

    @Sanada
    May be you're right. Those are not "debat kusir". But sometimes they do "debat kusir", pointing finger to the other (diverting topics), and act / plead as a victims. I think you must know their habbits before.

  274. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    If you think this is a ‘debat kusir’, why did you jump in? 🙂

    This is a forum of exchange where everyone is free to express opinions .

    1. What makes you think the Caliph’s success needs to be separated from his Islamic life?

    Umar bin Khattab always did "istikharah prayers' before making very tough decisions and is said to encourage a lot of discussions with his advisers which he learnt well from Rasulullah and Abu Bakr. He too often said that had it not been because of 'someone' (this refers to anyone he deemed knowledgeable in Islamic teachings who had advised him), he would have been unlucky (this refers to a condition he would have ended up with in his functioning as the umah’ leader)

    Umar bin Abdul Aziz (please note that this is a different person in a different era) was so successful that, within his administration, no one was ‘poor’ enough to receive the collected zakat and taxes that they had to finally ‘export’ the wealth to foreign nations.

    2. Sir, the Islamic sharia laws during this ‘modern jahiliyah’ era of course will not be immediately enforced in a particular area before its most learned Muslim leaders provide education about and socialize it on how it will best replace other laws. Despite the seemingly inhuman forms of the Shariah, it holds that A LEADER IS HIS UMMAH’S SERVANT, not vice versa. This forgotten principle has been the main cause why most Indonesian citizens have become poor despite the abundant natural resources which our Government has been selling to foreign nations. Please go check for your self about this.

    3. You are too cynical to have likened adzan with heavy metal. Adzan last for merely five minutes each time called for.

    4. About Bali. Islamic disallowance of statues/relics refers to ONLY Muslims. This is surely an issue you can’t judge, Sir. Let the two different societies interact with one another because I have witnessed some of the Balinese that I know of became interested in Islam of which some have finally come into it, and NEVER forcefully. For those who don’t …. No compulsion has been made to them, right?

    5. Something bigger and more universal beside the world of Islam?

    It sounds like an empty claim of yours, Sir. It is true that Muslims are behind in technology in the last couple of centuries. They have probably forgotten how Rasulullah had advised his ummah to provide education to their children that best suit their time. By that, we are now pursuing to getting better at it but of course this time without having to go on living ‘too freely’ like most disbelievers do.

    I’m not naïf Sir. I'm sort of advising you. I have witnessed no matter how advanced technology gets, this life remains temporary for everyone of us. And I believe it is you who can’t admit how Islam has been very successful when truly upheld by its first generations. Be honest to your self Sir, are you prepared to live forever?

  275. ele5th says:

    @ A Ihsan

    Yeah I know that. I born and live in Indonesia like you too. That's why i mention about "debat kusir" to you in my previous post. Got it?

    1. In my history notes, there has been no successful country because of the implementation of Islam and it's laws. Because if you refer to caliph Umar as an example of success in Islam, it is considered irrelevant. Why? Because you're mixing between Islamic Law (Sharia) and personal wisdom of Umar. Umar without Islam would still be a good leader (please do not reversed). Think about it and don't discussed it here, because this forum is not the place. OK?

    2. The application of Islamic law would only worsen the situation in indonesia , because if you're obtrude the monolithic culture and law into a multicultural country. You only slip a time bomb you do that.

    3. "Wow, you are Trying to compare the Difficulties in building places of worships? Simple question: Is prayer even allowed in the U.S. or some other western countries?"

    Very irrelevant. At least the Muslims are still given the right to establish mosques in the U.S. right?, why do you tolerate one-sided? Is it a good deed if you have been given a bed in someone's house, but still make the home-owner can not sleep because you setting the heavy metal out loud in the house? Think carefully because in human civilization it was called "disgracefull".

    4. Yes, Bali as exotic island will remain as long as not influenced by Islam.
    I can not imagine possible future of Bali when Islam became the majority there, and Pura (the Hindu's Temple) will be increasingly rare because was destroyed and replaced by a Mosque, craftsman like sculptures of human and animal would be dismiss because it is forbidden in islam, and people become intolerant to the Visitor / Tourist.

    5. "Please sir, Deeply learn one particular subject before saying something about it."

    Haha.. You're so naif.
    I think it was you that should open your eyes, be honest to your self, and think more to understand there is something bigger and more universal out there beside your world of islam. 😉

    Peace Regards,
    5th Element

  276. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    On the contrary, Sir. It's you who needs to read more. 🙂

    Please read the story about Umar bin Khattab RA before you make other silly comments. I am not asking you to read too much at a time. One biography of the Amirul Mukminin should be enough for you to become 'smarter' about Islam just by the way he ruled.

    Like I said, despite its dominant Muslim population, judging Islam by looking at Indonesia is unfair. Indonesia (you are rather right) is neither ruled by a truthful Caliph nor by enforcing Islamic laws.
    These so-called 'Muslim' rulers of Indonesia can't even be just to fellow Muslims, how in the world can they be just to other religions?

    Wow, you are trying to compare the difficulties in building places of worships? Simple question: Is adzan even allowed in the US or some other western countries?

    FYI, Sir. when you go to Bali, despite the Hindu's being minority, you will see how Muslims living there conform to this Hinduism ritual of Nyepi (the instruction to not use fire during the day and keep lights on at that particular night) .

    Please Sir, learn one particular subject deeply before saying something about it. 🙂

  277. ele5th says:

    @Sanada

    Best Muslim Country? hmmm.. maybe true, but it's too subjective..

    For most moslem, answer is Yes, they hold majority here. In fact in the main island (Java Island), you may see 2 or more mosque (or surau) in radius less than 5 square Kilometer.

    For Cristian, there are several province which Christian is still majority (outside Java Island). And in Java, it's lot easier to built a "Mall" than to built a church. You may wonder why.

    For Budhist, there a lot more harder than christian. For Hinduist, there is hindu-heaven in Bali Island.

    So for non-moslem, it's unfair to say Indonesia is the best muslim country? Because Indonesia is actually a democratic country in form of Republic. Indonesian Government recognize 5 different religion (Islam, Christian, Catholic, Hindu and Budha) in the basic constitutional laws.

    Pssst.. If in the past you are hear some riot about religion in Indonesia, it is because several imported immigrant who bring radicalism to Islam in Indonesia like Abu Bakar Ba'asyir (originated from Malaysia) and his minions do the suicide bombings in Jakarta / Bali / Ambon / Poso, there are also Habib Rizieq Shihab's organization of "Islamic Defenders Front" (he was Arabic descent 1st generation) who waged a personal war in the name of Islam to the group who considered opposing.

    But mostly, Indonesian people are like our friend Abdullah Ihsan above, with full faith about his/her religion but mostly have little knowledge about Islam in general, so easy to incite them are using their religious sentiments.

  278. Sanada_10 says:

    They even claimed Indonesia is the best muslim country (?) that can combine the secular state (defeating Turkey) and religion (defeating Saudi).

  279. ele5th says:

    @Sanada
    Yeah i know that. Most of my friend like that in Indonesia. They would rather blow up their head instead of digging the source of their religion, mostly because they can't.

  280. Sanada_10 says:

    I doubt that judging from her constant evasion and repetition here. One thing for sure, she had made many mistakes on Quranic verse, hadith and Islamic history.

  281. ele5th says:

    @A Ihsan
    Ok no problem, i assume you already aware the difference then, and have read and understand all the Quran to defend yours.

    You also said:
    "Islam is dynamic. There are also narrations about how Abu Bakar and Umar used to debate each other before they came to a shared decision and cooperatively implemented it."

    As long as i know dynamic mean constant change like fluid, and you describing a solid rock with a fluid. I do not understand and honestly i do not want to care about it.

    Thank you. Peace

  282. Sanada_10 says:

    She's a muslim and hates US. The evil empire of Japan can be become angel using this mindset.

  283. Sanada_10 says:

    That means even a neutral reader can see your mindset.

  284. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    Although I disagreed with you, anyway, thanks for your advise. 🙂

  285. Sanada_10 says:

    Moderate usually uses selective verses and hiding the rest. Btw, avoiding questions and answers are not "debat kusir".

  286. Sanada_10 says:

    Including compiling the Quran eh?

  287. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ ele5th

    Hi

    You said:

    "Meaning if your teacher is Islam Moderate you'll become Muslim Moderate. If your teacher is Radical, you'll become Moslem Radical."

    I am sorry I rather disagree with you, Sir. Umar bin Abdul Aziz grew in Islamic society who really hated Ali bin Abu Thalib (some even habitually cursed him). Yet, he was the one who said in the presence of his teachers: "The most pious men is Ali bin Abu Thalib." 🙂

    Islam is dynamic. There are also narrations about how Abu Bakar and Umar used to debate each other before they came to a shared decision and cooperatively implemented it. 🙂

    Peace

  288. ele5th says:

    @A Ihsan
    Maybe you should stop "debat kusir" with all of those people and start doing your homework, which is reading your Quran or credible book references with opened eyes and clear mind.
    Stop asking for interpretation or translate from other, because in Islam teaching, it's very easy to manipulate things according their references. Meaning if your teacher is Islam Moderate you'll become Muslim Moderate. If your teacher is Radical, you'll become Moslem Radical. At the end you'll still never know what Quran say by yourself.
    Trust yourself in the understanding and reading the Quran. Just read as many references as you can about Islam straight from the sources. Nothing you can gain from this endless loop of debate. Not for your faith nor knowledge.
    Ok bro?
    Peace..

  289. John K says:

    "A simple proof of sina's lack of knowledge in Islam"

    I've read Ali Sina. Everything he quotes is Islamic sources. If you don't recognize that, it would appear that you are the useful idiot who lacks knowledge of Islam and serves the purposes of your satanic masters.

  290. John K says:

    "I know that romance is obsessive. If this guy loves you, he would not try to force you to change your beliefs or force you to believe in something you find absurd."

    That's right. He's already exercising control over her by not letting her leave him.

  291. John K says:

    "Name one muslim country that attacked a non muslim country and started a war?

    Ive heard that the USA attacked iraq,never heard that Iraq attacked USA."

    What a joke! Look at a map of the world, idiot! All those Muslim countries are outside of Saudi Arabia dummy.

    Iraq attacked Kuwait, remember? The US was stupid enough to help a Muslim country by attacking Iraq.

  292. John K says:

    "U all now hav a golden opportunity.u r reading this coz god wanted u to read it.god is showing u something..dont ignore it..maybe this is once in ur life..

    May Allah guide u always,Allah loves u,whether u r muslim or not,thats why He created u,and blessed u with all the beautiful things in ur life.."

    You haven't read your Quran. Allah hates unbelievers, and that is why you are supposed to kill us.

    You have a golden opportunity to read Understanding Muhammad and free yourself from this fake religion.

  293. John K says:

    "This justifies the creation of such a system wherein you have people available in a society to run the society for all types of jobs in the absence of let us say a vocational training college or school."

    I don't mind the specialization, but it's the derogation. A leader of our church said that even a garbage collector has the right to feel that his job is the most important in the world.

    Thanks for the explanations and being willing to talk about caste. Last time I brought it up, I got an earful!

  294. Sanada_10 says:

    At least, they can be educated to lie.

  295. John K says:

    "Please have some dignity and decency to refrain yourself from lying."

    It's not part of Muslim culture.

  296. John K says:

    "Where did you get your education, anyway?"

    Muslims do not come from a knowledge-based society, so their education is not useful in evaluating information and knowledge.

  297. John K says:

    "Saudi is out at the moment but Afghanistan n Iraq are in."

    One of OBL's wives said that Saudi Arabia is Taliban in luxury.

  298. John K says:

    "Well said brother Abdullah…… you have quite a deep understanding of Islam which I have seen not many have"

    Anyone who has a deep understanding of Islam is not Muslim or is evil.

  299. John K says:

    "Who initiated the use of such highly explosive bomb to kill so many innocent people? The record in terms of number of innocent people killed is still unbroken."

    So you are ignorant about the number of lives saved by that decision.

  300. John K says:

    "There should arise strong political force at global level to end Islam once and for all. Without such a force it is not possible to destroy Islam from the face of the earth."

    The conclusion of Dr. Sina's book discusses the 3 scenarios. Force is definitely not the preferred option. He believes that once Muslims know the truth they will leave Islam. This is already happening. While we worry about Islam's expansion, it is collapsing from within. Evil is unsustainable.

  301. John K says:

    Isn't frank a fine example of humanity.

  302. kweeceng says:

    EVERYBODY …. STOOOOOOP!!!! JUST BUY ALI SINA BOOK …. THEN THE WORLD WILL BE SAVED, ALL MUSLIM WILL CONVERT … NO TERRORIST …. NO VIOLENCE….ALI SINA IS THE GREATEST …. BUY HIS BOOK … IT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE, YOUR CHILDREN LIFE …. LET US MAKE ALI SINA OUR PROPHET .. OUR MESSIAH … HE WILL SAVE THE WORLD … LET US FOLLOW HIS RELIGION …. LET US HAVE HIS BOOK AS OUR HOLY BOOK … LET US HAVE HIM A NEW RELIGION CALLED ALI SINA. LET ALI SINA BE OUR GOD. OUR SAVIOR. OUR IDOL. BUY HIS BOOOOOOOOOK PLEASE….HE NEED TO MAKE LIVING

  303. Sanada_10 says:

    Hamza, first, I don't know Sina personally, second, you are the one that actually someone's lackey (judging from your own post) and third, I had already discussed Islam in this site. All you have to do is simple, follow my comment that talks about Islam and start answering my queries there. There is no need to open the new discussion since the material is always ignored anyway. BTW, do you even know why I use that "word" in the first place? You just don't start imitating me for the sake of your own ego.

  304. Hamza says:

    Sanada you seem to be sooo knowledgeable about Islam … Maybe your sina's lackey…. You follow his word to exact however he has nt commented since he makes his initial hatred comment…. why does he hide? Ok you so love to gloss over others comments saying their not relevant…. Debate with me…. InshAllah i will be able to educate you….Auntie.

  305. Sanada_10 says:

    Repeated materials again. Muhammad was always the aggressor (proven many times). You should read many discussions about that. If you are just shouting "defensive" it will prove nothing. I suggest you look at my queries about that in Juwairiya article.

    Jizyah and zakat are different things. Jizya is made for humiliate people of the book (no other party beside this) and source of the live hood but zakat is made for small tax and poor people.

    The question stays, auntie: Can dhimmitude be compared to international student? Let's look at the difference:

    1. Homeland = dhimmi is attacked in their own land, student is coming to another land
    2. Situation = dhimmi is a war victim, student is just doing educational duty to benefit themselves.
    3. Prospect = dhimmi cannot be succesful, student can.
    4. Consent = dhimmi never want to be attacked, student want to go to US.
    5. Status = dhimmis is second class, humiliated human, student is just foreign person.

    Back to Muhammad's first war, answer this:

    1. Who had started to attack first?
    2. Who had done the first blood?

  306. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyloner

    Mr. Loner,

    First,

    I do not need no respect from you, neither do you from me. We converse, that’s it. Please quit that pretended courtesy.

    Second,

    Yes Sir, you did ask me to picture myself in a situation (read again your post to see if I’m wrong). The problem is, you HAD FALSELY described the situation with that imaginative ‘play’ (I don’t know if you did that purely because you didn’t know or you just wanted to make fun of yourself with that pretending). With that ‘play’ too, I doubt that you are a man capable of showing respects. So please save that lie to someone who will buy it. 🙂

    I used the same sources as ali sina used to tell you the story about the first Battle between Muslims and the pagans. Muslims WERE NEVER the aggressors. They reacted. They proved to always defend themselves. Moreover, some narrations say that even Rasulullah tried to avoid an about-to-start war by signing treaty between Muslims and the pagans. During this process, Rasulullah had to sadly let Abu Jandal (a Muslim teenage boy) taken back by his family (still pagans) as they threatened unless he did, they would have started war right away.

    Mr. Loner,

    Yes, you can take it more or less like: the dhimmies are levied with taxes once Muslims manage to become the ruler of diverse societies. But should that condition exists, Muslims are also obliged to pay zakat.

    Fairness is relative. We surely have different points of views. Fairness to me is when I read how truthful Caliphs lived and ruled and equalized their lives with the lowest standards of his peoples, when fairness to you might mean the condition of Royal Families of England living in luxury on their peoples’ taxes. Well, only you know for sure about that. 🙂

    I have seen how other governments tax his peoples. You do pay taxes, don’t you? The issue is whom you are willing to pay it out to.

    At last, it is ALL UP TO YOU if you want to steel your resolve to never lose to Muslims. That is good of you. But don’t forget Sir, although from the very beginning Muslims were never the aggressors, it has proven that they are never easy to take on. 🙂

    You are welcome Sir.

  307. Lonelyloner says:

    @ Abdullah Ihsan.

    Abdullah Ihsan said:

    If I see a group of people get together and live their lives to worship the only Creator of the Universe, then I wouldn't risk messing around with them. If I falsely do attack them and lose, then I would feel ashamed to find out later that it is only Dhimmies that they applied to me upon my submission. Not to mention that I will stand equal with them when becoming one of them. Any better offer in today’s society rules?

    Besides, wouldn't it be good to see ourselves ruled by truthful Caliphs?

    Truthful Caliphs who proved to prioritize their people’s needs against their own.

    What? My original question is only this:

    Is Dhimmitude fair?

    And is life as a dhimmi good?

    That is all I asked. And yet your answer ambiguous.

    Well I should not be surprised that Abdullah Ihsan, as usual does not give a straight clear cut answer. You can't simply answer "Yes, because…" or "No, because…" can you? You just have to circle and circle around. Why can't you talk in straight line, Mr. Ihsan? Why should you resort to BS all the time?

    I respected you, Mr.Ihsan. But I feel that respect less and less as you go on like this. What is this about truthful Caliphs? I don't care about that! I only wanted answers to my questions!

    In a way though, perhaps you have answered. You implied that Dhimmitude is punishment for losing in a struggle against muslims. And that 'it could be worse', so I should accept it because 'it's not too bad'.

    Thank you. We'll just steel our resolve to NEVER lose to muslims then.

  308. Sanada_10 says:

    What you see is an illusion based on your prejudice that you are always right. From neutral point of view, I see a group of people who want to worship god (nothing wrong with that) but they also want to impose their version into other people with any mean necessary (now that's wrong) and blaming anyone who reject them (double wrongs).

    You are behaving like a narcissist. "Worshiping god" doesn't mean you are right especially if it is you who attack first. It this is the case then don't protest because of USA'd won over muslim countries. It seems that you are trying to say that the strong can eat the weak. Is this your justice? This is jungle law, auntie.

  309. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyloner

    You asked me to picture myself in a situation (rather different from your false description).

    If I see a group of people get together and live their lives to worship the only Creator of the Universe, then I wouldn't risk messing around with them. If I falsely do attack them and lose, then I would feel ashamed to find out later that it is only Dhimmies that they applied to me upon my submission. Not to mention that I will stand equal with them when becoming one of them. Any better offer in today’s society rules?

    Besides, wouldn't it be good to see ourselves ruled by truthful Caliphs?

    Truthful Caliphs who proved to prioritize their people’s needs against their own.

  310. Sanada_10 says:

    Repeated materials, re-read my post about that. The size of the army doesn't indicate the aggressor. It is the time line. If 1 people fight 3 people does that mean that 3 people are the aggressor? Your logic is pathetic. Pagan was there to protect the goods and their numbers are default. It has nothing to do with the battle.

    Tell me, who had started the war first by robbing caravan? Imagine 1 thief had stolen the goods the police had and killed the guard. In order to stop the thief, police department sent 3 men to apprehend the thief and to make sure the thief is caught. The thief was the aggressor, the trouble maker and needed to be stopped. The Meccan had no reason to attack Muhammad because he was gone for good and the unrest was gone too unless their were attacked.

    You complained about the negative image of Muhammad but forgot that muslim with its biased mindset had portrayed pagan as evil men too. The whole history was written by the victor and you could expect nothing but one sided content. Even with this biased source you can still see the evil of Muhammad.

    One more, dhimmi is conquered people, not "attacking disbeliever". It is people of the book and I have explained that they never attack Muhammad in the first place. What happen to other religions? They were killed and erased. Read the verse and narration about that. It is clear that Muhammad wanted to attack them until they convert or become dhimmi. This is not self defense. Don't edit what your prophet'd said.

  311. Sanada_10 says:

    He's advising that fellow not to imitate muslim to become criminal and thinking that they are rightly guided. You are missing the point, you only post to seek mistake because of your hatred. You seems to laugh more recently that's why you ignored the post which contains the issue and chose trivial things like this. The sign of desperation, a good example for the readers.

  312. Sanada_10 says:

    Desperate auntie? You sounds like an answering machine here. Posting twice with the same meaning is emotional.

  313. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    I told you already not to make silly statements…… 🙂

  314. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Some one is trying so hard to show his hatred in Islam by saying:

    "Normal people do not kill others for a cause. Only muslims do that"

    Is this fact? ha ha ha

    Please be careful. Don't let you unreasonable hatreds make you sound least-informed.

    Ha ha

    Only Muslims kill for a cause? ha ha

  315. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyloner

    Ha ha

    You’ve been trying TOO HARD to build very negative image on Islam through your ‘play’ imagination. Please excuse me using some capital letters, they are just for emphasis, not going berserk.

    Truly, it doesn’t work, Sir.

    It never happened the way you have been trying to falsely describe. I wonder why some disbelievers always put the blame on Muslims but they NEVER care why the pagans failed to consider ALL risks BEFORE making an attack on Muslims. Why all of the Islam’s enemies became LOSERS and started complaining what Muslims did when they finally LOST? Instead of complaining, shouldn’t they be gentle enough to admit it?

    The sizes of both armies in Badr War implied who the aggressor was. By this larger size (three times larger) and better armament the pagans were so convinced that they could take on Muslims. They were so sure and so arrogant BEFORE the war, but Sir, why are you NOW blaming Muslims when the pagans finally LOST? Have you too seen later on any case where Muslims outnumbered their enemies? If you call your self a gentleman, please have some honest thoughts when reading this fact.

    When these attacking disbelievers lost and Dhimmies were applied to them, what’s wrong with it?

    Sharia Laws apply for ONLY believers. But of course Muslims have to try from the very start to unify, and to socialize the concept of Sharia Laws among themselves before upholding them. It also takes a just leader to apply them widely. But it’s rather a long discussion to be presented here.

    I brought up the issue of the US to compare it with Umar bin Abdul Aziz’s Administration when within its nation’s prosperity, it was easy for disbelievers to have the same benefits as those of Muslims simply by converting to Islam. Witnessing what the Caliph was doing, every body else was voluntarily coming to Islam Sir (to Sharia Laws), and no history proves that they were forced to do so.

    So…… why should we bother about you accepting sharia laws when we finally noticed how unfair you are in judging Rasulullah’s Wars.

  316. Lonelyloner says:

    Abdullah ihsan said:

    But some laws there have been set to differentiate alien residents from their citizens. Even international students with best intention to pursue higher education are charged more than twice in-state tuition fees in most universities (even triple sometimes). Not to mention that no one/international student from out side the US is permitted to work there as clearly written on their social security cards once issued (it usually says: not valid for employment).

    my comment:

    While it is true that countries like USA and Australia do discriminate between local students and international students, this is still NOT comparable to Dhimmitude in Sharia.

    For a start? International Students are from overseas, they are there in USA as paying guests, and since they are not entitled to be subsidized by the government, so they have to pay full tuition fees instead of subsidized fees like the local students pay.
    The difference in status makes sense, since the International Students ARE outsiders, they're not US citizens.

    But dhimmitude? Dhimmitude don't work exactly like that. It's more like this:

    Let's say you live peacefuly in a home that rightfuly belongs to you.
    One terrible night, suddenly a gangster enters your home.
    And then he states his demand:

    "From now on, Gangsta Law applies to this neighborhood! You have 3 choices!"
    "1: You join us.
    Or..
    2: You may remain here, but you must pay us.
    Or..
    3: You must leave! This place is no longer your home!
    Else…
    we'll kill you!

    Now now don't feel too bad. We do respect your freedom, we respect your freedom to choose.
    Now choose what shall befall you!"

    So you started out as an insider. Then you're suddenly an outsider.

    Ihsan, now please place yourself in that position.
    And then seriously tell me, would you say this treatment is fair?
    That you would be willing and be totally happy smiling and content to accept that gangster's demands?
    Would you agree that this 'freedom' that gangster offers is worth shit?

    I actually tried to ask this in another forum:
    "Being non-muslim, why should I want Sharia Law? Would life as a Dhimmi be better than life as a free non-muslim?"
    As of now, no muslim could answer this. Perhaps you could?
    Please convince me that life as a dhimmi will be the best life there is for non-muslim, and then MAYBE I would consider supporting Sharia Law.

  317. Juste says:

    Hi Jonny,
    Normal people do not kill others for a cause.
    Only muslims do that.

  318. jonny says:

    hello we should try to stop islam by killing their women so thy will not be able to breed more of them or any how to convert their women to hinduism, to lord savior christ_because men are hard to control_

  319. Sanada_10 says:

    Everyone of course have their own choice and opinion but as long as no evidence presented, it is stayed as mere opinion, like yours.

    Auntie, you need to fix your self before teaching other because you don’t actually address the point at all. Do you even address the concern and complain? No, you are shooting wildly again.

    Oh, as usual you always end your silly post with thought-terminating cliché, another logical fallacy you keep producing.

  320. Sanada_10 says:

    Saudi is doing a good job in sharia law enforcement. Try looking at the big picture instead of small, unimportant one. Most principle? It’s a trivial, not the main principle. Quote the Quranic verse about that. Don’t invent your own opinion.

    It is you who don’t know its essence. Justice is retribution, society control and implementation. It is valued on how far you reach your target.

  321. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “What their Government does is worse. They make it very hard to be Americans (like I said about Green Card) but they always want to interfere in every other nation’s issues, particularly when such issues directly concern their interests.”

    Red herring again auntie. The discussion is not about US foreign policy to other nation but the treatment of “non US” inside the US. That’s politic just like every one else including Islam. Islam wants to interfere in other nation’s issue in the name of Allah. It wants to subjugate all to their side. Every country wants to play a bigger role when possible and to single out US is jealousy.

    Despite your petty complain, America is the number one nation which contains immigrants from around the world and that doesn't stop the immigrants to come there. The result speaks the volume.

    You wrote, “It is much better in the ideal Islamicly ruled society (although the era is gone now), where EVERYBODY IS WELCOME to be a Muslim, even those who have been conquered.”

    Wrong. Every one is invited to Islam and if refused, war is inevitable. Of course the conquered one can enter Islam because that’s the purpose in the first place. Invite, invade, subjugate, giving harsh tax, and conversion. The mission is world domination and Islamization. I’ll show you again since you are such a coward.

    Bukhari 1.24:
    Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

    You wrote, “Like I said, I brought up the US (or other sophisticated countries) only to show you that a large group of people, when having gained power, land, and shared understandings, they have the rights to rule themselves, including those coming to their premises or interacting with them. Not for other purposes.”

    Your prophet didn’t like that since they are kafirs. Allah, the inheritor, wants to cleanse the world and bring the sharia law everywhere. Of course they have the right to do that but in the mind of Muhammad, they are just target to be cleansed.

  322. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “I wonder why you are not understanding me”

    This is what would happen if you insisted your view into others without trying to address the counter argument. I wonder why you are cherry picking his post?

    You wrote, “Please don't see the capital letters as me going berserk. I just want to make sure that you and people like you don't miss my point. And I hope you read CAREFULLY this time.”

    Auntie, your capital words are just supportive mark. You go berserk every time you discuss Islam, pointing your finger to all places in order to divert the attention. The point of yours doesn’t address the opponent, that’s why it is irrelevant and ignored. It’s funny to see you writing “read” here. It’s so ironic.

    You wrote, “The Sharia Laws CAN ONLY be applied by a JUST Caliphate. The ESSENCE of the Sharia Laws (in this referring particularly to punishments) is that justice always COMES FIRST”

    Talking without proof is your habit. Sharia Law can be applied regardless of the situation. If you wait for a caliphate to be present then it is absurd since the crime will go rampant. Do what you do best no matter what the condition is. Take example of present day. The caliphate is no more. What will happen? Do you want to discard Allah’s law entirely? Muhammad must be sad looking at you now. The essence of sharia law is to make retribution for a crime. Justice is the retribution, caliphate’s presence is irrelevant.

    You wrote, “You know what Umar bin Abdul Aziz said when responding to one of his Governors who asked for his permission to use hard punishments on his peoples with a claim that it was the only way to correct their behaviors?”

    Red herring again. We are talking about sharia law as a whole, its barbaric law, its application, its discrimination and oppression of minorities. Once again, this opinion and unclear story (coz you bring no reference) doesn’t answer the problem. The only way to correct their behavior is strict punishment as I’ve pointed to you. Stay on Muhammad, auntie.

    You wrote, “This sharp-sighted Caliphate simply answered: “You are lying. You can correct their behaviors by UPHOLDING JUSTICE among them, not by using such punishments.”

    Wrong answer. Bring Muhammad or Quranic words on that one. There are plenty stories that “justice” alone can’t fix the behavior of the people.

    You wrote, “Dou you see similar things happening in what you call ‘applied-sharia’ in Saudi?”

    Again you are missing the point. Beside, Saudi king is like the governor, he is not caliphate. But the show must go on and the focus of Islamic law is the society since it constitutes the majority. The main point of sharia is to maintain order (Islamic) within people. In this case, this is already done perfectly by the Saudis.

    Bukhari 1.662:
    Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief."

    Setting aside the racism, Muhammad actually endorsed the people to obey their regional ruler no matter what the circumstances as long as the caliphate is not possible.

    1.663:
    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "If the Imam leads the prayer correctly then he and you will receive the rewards but if he makes a mistake (in the prayer) then you will receive the reward for the prayer and the sin will be his."

    Islamic society is already implemented on the Saudi and throwing the Saudi out completely just because of small obstacle is dishonesty. If the Saudi makes mistake, the sin will be on theirs and the reward will be on the society (as long as the sharia law is applied correctly, which it is).

    You wrote, “What is your purpose of ignoring the differences I presented to you between Islamic truthful Caliphates and today's Saudi kings?”

    Wow, the pot is calling the kettle here. How does your own weapon feel? The difference is small and judging from the circumstance, it is tolerable. The main issue is the society and its minorities.

    You wrote, “Saudi’s kings are applying all forms of the Sharia Laws but they apparently FORGET TO INCLUDE themselves in the system.”

    No problemo. This is just a small obstacle and the main mission is achieved already. Apparently, they think like Muhammad because he too was outside the system. Regardless of the involvement, the society will stay the same. That’s the point.

  323. Sanada_10 says:

    Hah? Upholding justice? What does that even mean? In Muhammad’s mind upholding justice means punishing the culprit with harsh punishment. Remember, we are talking about Muhammad and Quran, not his followers who had done the compilation and selection of Quran without Muhammad’s permission.

    Bukhari
    8.781:
    Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet said, "The hand of a thief should be cut off for stealing a quarter of a Dinar."

    8.791:
    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Allah curses the thief who steals an egg (or a helmet) for which his hand is to be cut off, or steals a rope, for which his hand is to be cut off."

    8.793:
    …And whoever commits any of the above crimes and receives his legal punishment in this world, that will be his expiation and purification…

    Muatta 41.7.23:
    Yahya related to me from Malik from Abdullah ibn Abi Bakr from his father from Amra bint Abd ar−Rahman that a thief stole a citron in the time of Uthman Uthman ibn Affan ordered its value to be estimated and it was estimated at three dirhams at the rate of exchange of twelve dirhams for the dinar, so Uthman cut off his hand.

    41.9.28:
    …A thief came and took his cloak and Safwan grabbed hold of the thief and brought him to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to him, "Did you steal this cloak?" He said, "Yes." So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered that his hand be cut off. Safwan said to him, "I did not intend this. It is his as sadaqa." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Why didn't you do it before bringing him to me?"

    Justice? Think again auntie:

    41.10.31:
    …Malik said about some one who stole something for which cutting off the hand was obliged and then what he stole was found with him and he returned it to its owner, "His hand is cut off." Malik said, "If someone says, 'How can his hand be cut off when the goods have been taken from him and returned to their owner?', it is because he is in the same position as the wine drinker when the smell of the wine is found on his breath and he is not drunk. He is flogged with the hadd. "The hadd is imposed for drinking wine even if it does not make the man intoxicated. That is because he drank it to become intoxicated. It is the same as that with cutting off the hand of the thief for theft when it is taken from him, even if he has not profited from it and it was returned to its owner. When he stole it, he stole it to take it away."…

    9.271:
    Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu`adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu`adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.

    4.260:
    Narrated `Ikrima: `Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn `Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

    Muhammad, the vengeful,

    Bukhari 3.72:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Ka`ba (taking refuge in the Ka`ba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him."

    About Fatima, It is well known fact that a narcissist is very good at playing with words. His words and his deeds often don’t match and this Fatima thingy doesn’t have any supportive event to prove it. In short, it is merely empty words. Polygyny was also forbidden on Fatima because of this.

  324. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “Does this fact sound weird to you?”

    Nope, not at all if you see that from neutral point of view and looking at the bigger picture.

    You wrote, “It is NOT to me because I understand that it is their land, their country, and it is their law that applies there”

    Ah, you understand that point but fail to understand its difference with Islam.

    You wrote, “It is narrated that within Islamic Government under the leadership of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, many non-Muslims came into Islam to avoid taxes (Jizyah), making the caliphate’s advisors tell him to be alert on this trend. But the Caliphate simply said: “It will be OK for me if everybody becomes a Muslim even if it makes us (the rulers) do farming to feed our selves”

    Another red herring. We are talking about what Islam teaches and what Muhammad did, not the mere opinion of his followers. Bribery like this can lead to rebellion, economic problem and Muhammad didn’t like that.

    Bukhari 4.388:
    Narrated Juwairiya bin Qudama at−Tamimi: We said to `Umar bin Al−Khattab, Jo Chief of the believers! Advise us." He said, "I advise you to fulfill Allah's Convention (made with the Dhimmis) as it is the convention of your Prophet and the source of the livelihood of your dependents (i.e. the taxes from the Dhimmis.) "

    Why do you keep avoiding Muhammad? Afraid, auntie?

    You wrote, “And don’t you forget Juste, Muslims are also obliged to pay zakat.”

    Irrelevant aka red herring again. Zakat cannot be compared to Jizyah. It is very small, that’s why the dhimmi run from Jizyah and went to zakat. With this amount of tax you’ll never get any society to prosper. You only use poor people for your own cleaning tool, like a flushing water in a toilet.

    You wrote, “So, in an ideal Islamic Government as portrayed by those under truthful Caliphates, it takes as simple as being a Muslim to be equal with other Muslims”

    This is an ideal society for fascist people.

    You wrote, “About being the same before Allah for non-Muslims, it regards to non-Muslim’s property as I have presented to you what Caliphate Umar bin Khattab would have done to his unjust Governor who forcefully claimed a Jew’s land to be used to build a mosque”

    Red herring again. Quoting (?) this incident doesn’t answer the discrimination and expulsion of the dhimmi. The problem is the discrimination, the heavy tax, force conversion and the negative label on their head. Again, there is no Muhammad in this one. Why?

    Muslims are nuisance, they don't respect the host's culture.

  325. Sanada_10 says:

    Auntie, how many times you have been like this, eh? You keep resorting to logical fallacies. In an honest and healthy discussion you should pay attention to your opponent’s concern and complain not shrug it off. By not doing so you only made yourself as “unreliable” and “dishonest” in the eyes of other side. Also, when you make an argument, at least you should bring the source because there are so many lies and fabricated words from muslim’s mouth when defending Muhammad.

    You wrote, “To be equal in Islamicly ruled society one has to become a Muslim, what is wrong with that? What is wrong about paying the jizyah for non-Muslims?”

    There is a lot of wrong in it. First, Jizyah is a humiliating tax rated at 50% max, additional 10 % travels and can be imposed depending on muslim’s interest. Second, the concept of humiliation indicates that non muslims have to be conquered and put at their place. Muslims seek to rule over the entire world, killing all polytheists and making people of the book as second class citizen. Third, the scheme of erasing all religions is very obvious, while muslims keep taking advantage on the dhimmi’s money, they are using the heavy tax to make non muslims convert to Islam out of free will. Didn’t Muhammad say, “enter Islam or die/suffer”? Who says Islam is tolerant?

    It is the same with Nazi. To be equal in Nazi’s ruled society you have to be a German. Any other race will be treated as second class. Auntie, this is blatant fascism.

    You wrote, “America is a Nation thought of as the best place to live by some people from third world countries. (I have noticed this through witnessing many from all over the world really seek for Green Card – a proof as legal immigrants, and how tough it is to get one)”

    This is tu quoque fallacy. Auntie, 2 wrongs don’t make 1 right, ok. I know you keep avoiding this because you have no other argument. USA is just one destination but there are plenty other destinations such as Western Europe which doesn’t do that. In fact, it is muslim who find difficulty to adapt the host’s society, creating problem like social and economic distress. They even want to change the host’s law with sharia. Tell me, do you want sharia law to be changed with another law by the dhimmi?

    America is a nation, a country and it is ruled by human, not by prophet. Nationalism is one of the key successes for America in years. You can’t simply let your own nation being overrun by foreigner unless you want your own identity to disappear. Yeah, you allow them to enter, receive them with open arms, and give them liberty (which Islam doesn’t allow it) but that will not go beyond limit. Mass immigration and over population will always bring problem so the consequence is inevitable. In short, USA’s space is limited. If you keep filling your box without sorting it out, you’ll get problem.

    This is not the case with Islam and its so called nation. There is no boundary in Islamic ideal society called the ummah. There is no such thing as “nation” and Islam seeks to expand its ummah into the entire world. The American excuse cannot be applied on this one since the Islamic box has no limit to be filled. It is another red herring.

    Does America treat its greed card’s holder as second class citizen, subjugating them, humiliating them and pushing them to the narrowest part of the street? No, the green card holder comes to USA because of their own initiative but Islam comes to the dhimmi to conquer them. See the difference before opening your irrelevant mouth.

    You wrote, “But some laws there have been set to differentiate alien residents from their citizens. Even international students with best intention to pursue higher education are charged more than twice in-state tuition fees in most universities (even triple sometimes). Not to mention that no one/international student from out side the US is permitted to work there as clearly written on their social security cards once issued (it usually says: not valid for employment)”

    Tsk, tsk, tsk. Again it is the nationalism since international students are not Americans. They came in the name of other countries and in the world of politic, you, of course, will prioritize your own country. Some laws don’t mean American law and that difference is part of the process. This is the same with your stupid child marriage in few states of US. It’s full of fallacies. Pointing your finger won’t make Islam better. It is worse in fact since it promotes fascism.

    Can America make non American successful in USA with the greed card? Yes, there are many stories about that. Can a dhimmi be successful under the Islamic rule? No, they can’t because the intention is not that in the first place.

  326. Sanada_10 says:

    Where is the discussion of Muhammad's wars, discriminative law and crimes? Auntie, when you are discussing something, try to answer the opponent correctly this time. Pay attention to his points, notice something is missing?

  327. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    It's all up to you. Everyone has their own choice. If you're done with me, and have nothing else to present, please feel free to go…… 🙂

    But to me, you have clearly showed nothing but your shallow knowledge about Islam by saying what you don't know about Sharia Law enforcement. 🙂

    You told me that I didn't read a lot, but I guess now I should tell you to read about Islam more carefully if you want to say something about it. Please don't make silly statements anymore…. for your own good? 🙂

  328. Juste says:

    Sorry Mr. Ihsan,
    I rested my case. I believe you were conceded in your earlier post when you wrote “To be equal in Islamic society one has to become a muslim”. Now you are trying to rectify that suddenly? Unless you can give me some answers to why it is okay for an unbeliever to convert to Islam on the contrary why death penalty is in effect when muslims lost their faith in Muhammad and his Allah. Until then, i will spare you from my onslaught (Islamic ego talking :)).
    When i said the Saudians are doing a good job upholding the Sharia. It does not mean that Sharia has to advocate justice. They are just following a set of old codes strictly and by the book which happen to be Islamic and adopted it as law.
    Big difference.
    We all know that there is no justice in Islam, never have been, never will be. Unless you are a muslim.
    US. man-made laws can be changed, amended even discarded etc. But muslims believe Islamic law was forged by Allah himself. So, can it be changed, amended even discarded?
    Big difference.
    I do not want to bother myself in any argument regarding any US. Policies. This subject interest me not. You are throwing red herrings with it. And i am not chasing.

  329. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    II would like to confirm to make it clearer for you. (again, excuse the capital letters, they are only for emphasis)

    No, Juste. The Saudi IS NOT doing a good job in Sharia Law enforcement. You know why? They forget the most principle essence of Sharia Law which is JUSTICE among themselves/Muslims.

    If you have thought that you know Sharia so far, then I'm sorry to say but you didn't. You didn't until I told you that it is JUSTICE that is the essence of the Sharia Law. 🙂

  330. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    I wonder why you are not understanding me.

    Please don't see the capital letters as me going berserk. I just want to make sure that you and people like you don't miss my point. And I hope you read CAREFULLY this time.

    The Sharia Laws CAN ONLY be applied by a JUST Caliphate. The ESSENCE of the Sharia Laws (in this referring particularly to punishments) is that justice always COMES FIRST, as Rasulullah once said: "If Fatimah, my daughter, is caught stealing, then it will be me who will cut her hand."

    You know what Umar bin Abdul Aziz said when responding to one of his Governors who asked for his permission to use hard punishments on his peoples with a claim that it was the only way to correct their behaviors?

    This sharp-sighted Caliphate simply answered: “You are lying. You can correct their behaviors by UPHOLDING JUSTICE among them, not by using such punishments.”

    Dou you see similar things happening in what you call ‘applied-sharia’ in Saudi?

    Juste,

    What is your purpose of ignoring the differences I presented to you between Islamic truthful Caliphates and today's Saudi kings?

    Saudi’s kings are applying all forms of the Sharia Laws but they apparently FORGET TO INCLUDE themselves in the system.

    Juste,

    Again, please think before posting something, because you carelessly said:

    "Besides, Americans are not in the habit of going offensive try to convert non-Americans to Americans and make them embrace Americanism."

    Ha ha Justee, what’s wrong with you?

    What their Government does is worse. They make it very hard to be Americans (like I said about Green Card) but they always want to interfere in every other nation’s issues, particularly when such issues directly concern their interests.

    It is much better in the ideal Islamicly ruled society (although the era is gone now), where EVERYBODY IS WELCOME to be a Muslim, even those who have been conquered.

    Like I said, I brought up the US (or other sophisticated countries) only to show you that a large group of people, when having gained power, land, and shared understandings, they have the rights to rule themselves, including those coming to their premises or interacting with them. Not for other purposes.

  331. Juste says:

    I didn’t even read your post regarding US. Tax Policies.
    If you are so passionate about changing America for the better, please go to presidentobama.com or whitehouse.com.
    Besides, Americans are not in the habit of going offensive try to convert non-Americans to Americans and make them embrace Americanism.
    See the problem here?
    That’s okay, if you don’t see Muhammad as a criminal despite the overwhelming evidence. Your mind works like that. It all comes back to you whether your mind have the capacity of being intellectually honest or not.
    Oh, yeah. I forgot; regarding point one and two. Islam based its entire belief system on a mind control technique called Psychology of Fear. Look it up. I’m sure Allah won’t mind if His ummah learn something for the greater good.
    Ps. Sorry for the long post, Folks.
    Try to make a point here.

  332. Juste says:

    What is wrong in paying Jizyah?
    Let me describe it shortly for people who might be ignorant of it.
    Jizyah is paid as a sign of submission and gives Dhimmis (Christians/Jews) legal protection in return.
    If Muslim Army conquered a land, the people will be given 3 choices as i mention above. The agreeing party of non-muslims are called Dhimmis.
    Dhimmis usually are not allowed to carry arms to protect themselves, serve in the army or government, display symbols of their faith, build or repair places of worship etc. The Jizyah value imposed can be as low as 10% or as high as 50%. The Scriptures don’t make a clear number of percentage to be taken.
    Verses:
    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    (9:29)
    Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted.
    (Al Tabari, Volume XII) Umar ibn Khattab during the conquest of Basrah at 636 AD.
    Do not compare to zakat! Zakat only made muslims pay 2.5%.
    Jizyah is A HUMMILIATION for non-muslims. It is a sign of submission.
    Besides, i believe all people of all faiths are suppose to pay some sort of donation to their religious community, willingly or not, regardless the value.
    See the problem here?

  333. Juste says:

    Hi Mr. Ihsan,
    Save the Saudi arguments for later. Regardless whether Saudi ruled by a king or caliph. It is a matter of opinion. In law enforcement, i think Saudians have been doing a good job upholding the Sharia. While you talk about governmental issues.
    You said “To be equal in Islamically ruled society, one has to become a muslim. What is wrong with that?”
    I rest my case. Islam is not rahmatan lil alamin, it is not even humanity-oriented.
    It is safe to assume that it is okay for non-muslims to convert to Islam, but not the other way around. Muhammad himself said if a muslim abandon his faith, kill him. His words were legalized in Al Azhar death fatwa of 1978 for ex-muslims converts. Even goes as far as, automatic divorce for spouses, children are disown (if old enough they have to choose either be muslims or die), cessation of jobs, disposession of belongings etc.
    See the problem here?
    Cont…

  334. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    For your 1st and 2nd questions:

    When a group of people have managed to establish their own Government, it is their right – with shared understanding – to set rules and regulations within their society and premises.

    To be equal in Islamicly ruled society one has to become a Muslim, what is wrong with that? What is wrong about paying the jizyah for non-Muslims?

    Let’s take a look at the facts in sophisticated countries. The United States for instance to make it easy to compare.

    America is a Nation thought of as the best place to live by some people from third world countries. (I have noticed this through witnessing many from all over the world really seek for Green Card – a proof as legal immigrants, and how tough it is to get one)

    But some laws there have been set to differentiate alien residents from their citizens. Even international students with best intention to pursue higher education are charged more than twice in-state tuition fees in most universities (even triple sometimes). Not to mention that no one/international student from out side the US is permitted to work there as clearly written on their social security cards once issued (it usually says: not valid for employment).

    Does this fact sound weird to you?

    It is NOT to me because I understand that it is their land, their country, and it is their law that applies there.

    However,

    It is narrated that within Islamic Government under the leadership of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, many non-Muslims came into Islam to avoid taxes (Jizyah), making the caliphate’s advisors tell him to be alert on this trend. But the Caliphate simply said: “It will be OK for me if everybody becomes a Muslim even if it makes us (the rulers) do farming to feed our selves.”

    And don’t you forget Juste, Muslims are also obliged to pay zakat.

    So, in an ideal Islamic Government as portrayed by those under truthful Caliphates, it takes as simple as being a Muslim to be equal with other Muslims. But of course when converting, one has to consider the laws therein in Islam.

    About being the same before Allah for non-Muslims, it regards to non-Muslim’s property as I have presented to you what Caliphate Umar bin Khattab would have done to his unjust Governor who forcefully claimed a Jew’s land to be used to build a mosque.

    The same can’t be said as easy in the US (or most sophisticated countries). An international student can’t just say “I want to be an American” if he or she wants to avoid higher educational fee; or a green card seeker can’t just come to the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) and say: “Can I apply for a Green Card? I like to work here.”
    As such is rather impossible.

    About your 3rd question, I just don’t see any proof that supports it.

    Juste,

    Please have some more thinking before posting something. Don’t make the same mistake as you did when saying something about the Hajj and the Saudi Government. The clue is: read the truthful Islam Caliphates if you want to judge Islam, not by bringing up today’s Islamic kings/untruthful Islamic leaders.

  335. Sanada_10 says:

    I never cease to amaze when looking at this chit chat involving auntie of the market. The disconnection is so strong.

  336. Sanada_10 says:

    No need to confirm it auntie, unless you feel insecure about something (which certainly you do). This site has no deadline.

  337. Sanada_10 says:

    Muhammad's wars, murders, arrogance, and discriminative acts. I've shown you but you didn't dare to read.

    I see you have some narcissistic remarks leaked out from your mask, auntie. Yeah, it's easy to dodge the issue.

  338. Sanada_10 says:

    Your reply is indicating that you only read what you want to read. Your verse and his verse is not even connected and have different meaning. He talked about A but you talked about B, while avoiding C, D etc. Man, you are stupid, really.

  339. Juste says:

    Hey i got a story to regarding Muhammad, Umar Khattab and the Jews:
    In 628, taking advantage of a treaty of nonbelligerency (Hudaybiya) with the Meccans, Muhammad attacked the oasis of Khaybar. The assailants came to the oasis at night and in the morning attacked the peasants as they were coming out in the fields, carrying spades and baskets. After a siege lasting a month and a half, the inhabitants surrendered under the terms of a treaty known as the dhimma. According to this agreement Muhammad allowed the Jews to continue cultivating their oasis, on condition that they ceded to him half of their produce; he also reserved the right to break the agreement and expel them whenever he wished. Jews continued to live in the oasis for several more years until they were finally expelled by caliph Umar Ibn Khattab.

  340. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Hm, I forgot to ask you though. I don't really get what you mean by your sentence:

    "Do you deny what happened in 7th century Arabia as mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah that portray Muhammad as a criminal?"

    Can you be more specific?

    See you in a day or two, perhaps three. 🙂

  341. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    I am having my 'sahur' now, so I will respond sometime later, I'm not sure if it will be today or the next two or three days. I got your message, it is easy to address. But I have my obligation to my Lord, so wait, alright?

    Take care now. 🙂

  342. Juste says:

    Everybody is equal before Muhammad’s allah?
    1. Be muslim
    2. Be dhimmis; pay jiztyah to the muslims, live as second class citizens, do not worship in public etc. (Christians and Jews)
    3. Be dead; either convert to Islam or die to people neither Christians or Jews.
    Mean anything to you?
    Death penalty to converts and prostelyzers from Islam.
    Deny it too?

  343. Juste says:

    Mr Ihsan.
    Please quit the TSF and IE. I know your game.
    Yes, i believe that Islamic rules are best (enforced) in Muhammad’s days.
    My questions remains:
    Do you deny what happened in 7th century Arabia as mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah that portray Muhammad as a criminal?
    Do you deny that Muhammad raided villages, killed the men, enslaved their women and children and enforced Islam upon them?
    Answer me straight up. No red herrings i hate it.

  344. Juste says:

    The Inherently Dishonest Mr. Ihsan.
    You lies are endless huh?
    I can make a full feature film out of it.
    Saudi is the perfect example of Sharia-imposed society. They are doing it all out and by the book.
    Hence, that is what you get in Islam. Try to deny that too?
    Preety clear what the verses say.
    Your answer was: “people asking too much question end up with nothing”?
    If people seize to be inquisitive, at this moment we still believe the flat earth and geocentric theories.
    We’ll be going places with a donkey instead of cars and airplanes.
    Try again please. Answer unacceptable. You are not talking with a braindead muslim that swallows lies on daily basis.
    My question stands:
    Did Muhammad/his allah like being questioned?

  345. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    The Islamic way of ruling was best portrayed during the eras of Rasulullah and his 4 best companions. I too wonder who now have the same capabilities as those of these honorable men. Those who feared Allah more than anything else. Among many succeeding Caliphates, later in history we notice Umar bin Abdul Aziz and Harun Al Rasyid who tried their bests to bring justice among their people.

    Juste,

    You have forced me to re-post a little about Umar bin Khattab threatening one of his Governors who forcefully took a Jew's land for a mosque. This unfairly treated Jew came all the way to Madina to report this to the Caliphate. The Caliphate was so unpleased with his Governor and sent him a simple code he wrote on a piece of bone. You know the rest of the story if you are really familiar with Islamic history. Or you aren't?

    If you are not, the story ended with the Governor trembling as he received the bone and at no delay at all, he returned the land to the Jew.

    Mr. Juste, please be honest when you answer this:

    Do you see any implication at all that the Jew was hopeless for justice from the Caliphate given that he made such a long journey to report his case?

    Would have any Jew (or anyone) dared to report such ruler-related case if he had not been convinced to find justice from the Caliphate?

    Mr Juste,

    The essence of Islamic ruling is that, exclusive of rituals, everybody is equal before Allah. That is what was understood by Rasulullah's best companions. That is why the Caliphates applied strict justice within their administrations even when regarding non-believers.

    Similar stories about this justice are many, Sir. I can tell you some more if you like. But, I wonder how come you missed them during your 'Islamic’ time?

    Were you really a Muslim?

  346. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Ha ha Juste. You don't understand the context of the verse… read again please the sources that you have presented here. Read the explanation about what the verse was telling mankind not to. 🙂

    It is of Islamic teachings to seek for the 'middle way'. It is not good to not ask when you don't know, but it is also not good to ask too many questions that may lead you to trouble particularly when the thing being asked has been simply explained. Some people have proven to be asking too many questions thus ended up doing nothing.

    And Juste, you said:

    "If you don't think Saudi doesn't comply Islamic teachings, why do muslims pray facing the Ka'bah? Why do muslims go on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia AS OBLIGED BY ISLAM in Hajj?"

    I almost laughed to read this question of yours.

    How can I explain something to a person who can't understand me when I say that it is the current ruling system in Saudi that is not complying with Islamic teachings, not the Kabah or the place where Kabah is located. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Juste,

    If you want to sound smart, please act like you are. 🙂

  347. Sanada_10 says:

    Saudi Arabia is the perfect example on how Islamic society works. Cutting hand, decapitating head, lashing, stoning, burqa-ing, women oppression, hating infidels, discriminating other race, outlawing other religions, racism etc. The only issue about Saudi is their king since Islamic caliphate is no more and not even possible now (hence making the kingship as logical conclusion). Leaving out this small obstacle, you'll get a perfect model of Islamic law and moral.

  348. Sanada_10 says:

    Muhammad, the selfish hypocrite:

    Bukhari 6.1:
    Narrated Abu Sa`id bin Al-Mu'alla: While I was praying in the Mosque, Allah's Apostle called me but I did not respond to him. Later I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I was praying." He said, "Didn't Allah say'–"Give your response to Allah (by obeying Him) and to His Apostle when he calls you."…

    Bukhari 5.215:
    Narrated `Abdullah: We used to greet the Prophet while he used to be in prayers, and he used to reply to our greetings. But when we came back from Najashi (the King of Ethiopia) we greeted him (while he was praying) and he did not reply to us. We said, "O Allah's Apostle! We used to greet you in the past and you used to reply to us." He said, "Verily The Mind is occupied and busy with more important matter during the prayer." (So one cannot return One's greetings.)

    Muhammad was always the villain and the aggressor. He was very arrogant and always blaming his victim. Did Allah teach you this cowardly debate technique?

    Lo, avoid disbeliever's argument which is dangerous to you, less you lose your faith.

    Read this, this, and this.

  349. Sanada_10 says:

    Bukhari 1.63:
    … The man said to the Prophet, "I want to ask you something and will be hard in questioning. So do not get angry." …

    Q 48:29. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

    You are really a clown coz you repeated this lie again. Charter of Medina (Why mentioned Medina only? That's the clue) was just a treaty (limited at certain situation) not state law let alone Islamic law. You didn't dare to read, eh?

    Charter of Medina was not Islamic law, period.

    Sahih Muslim Book 26, Number 5389:

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it .

    Bukhari 1.24:
    Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

    Bukhari 3.531:
    Narrated Ibn `Umar: `Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to let them stay there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them, "We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish." So, they (i.e. Jews) kept on living there until `Umar forced them to go towards Taima' and Ariha'. (Muslims often protest about Israelis in Palestine, but here their prophet did just the same and Muslims justify it, as usual double standard everywhere)

    Hatred towards Jews:

    Bukhari 4.524:
    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A group of Israelites were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But I do not see them except that they were cursed and changed into rats, for if you put the milk of a she−camel in front of a rat, it will not drink it, but if the milk of a sheep is put in front of it, it will drink it." I told this to Ka`b who asked me, "Did youhear it from the Prophet ?" I said, "Yes." Ka`b asked me the same question several times.; I said to Ka`b. "Do I read the Torah? (i.e. I tell you this from the Prophet.)"

    Auntie, your biggest issue is your reading problem and your cowardice to look at the truth.

  350. Juste says:

    One quick question about Muhammad’s crimes.
    Do you deny what happened in 7th century Arabia as mentioned in Quran and Sunnah so explicitly that portrayed Muhammad as it is?
    If you don’t think Saudi doesn’t comply Islamic teachings, why do muslims pray facing the Ka’bah? Why do muslims go on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia AS OBLIGED BY ISLAM in Hajj?
    Why do muslims pray in a language that was originated in Saudi Arabia?
    What country do you think is “most Islamic” if any?
    I think the Saudians also can say the same thing about you for not being “Islamic enough”.

  351. Juste says:

    “I guarantee a house in Jannah (Paradise) for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right;”
    [Prophet Muhammad reported by Imam Abu Dawud].
    It said what i think it said, right?
    Why do you think Muhammad/his allah said one thing, and said another thing in contradiction.
    Hmmm… Let me think…
    I get it! Muhammad forgot he ever made up that verse in the Quran.
    Cont…

  352. Juste says:

    Hi Mr. Ihsan.
    My “unfounded” conclusion?
    Oh, i read carefully between the lines alright. Here’s what i found.
    “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (Surah 5:101-102).
    “The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions …so do not try to probe into such things.” (The Meaning of the Qur’an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
    “The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry”.
    (vol. 1, no. 92)
    The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91)
    “Allah has hated you…[for] asking too many questions.”
    (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari’s Hadith commenting on Muhammad’s reaction for being questioned).
    Stop lying please! Grow a DIG-nity.
    Cont…

  353. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Why are you so careless to have said that Islam forbids asking questions?

    Please read between the lines more carefully Mr. Juste, that many of Rasulullah's hadiths are basically answers to his contemporary’s questions.

    What made you come up with an unfounded conclusion that Islam forbade asking questions while you know for sure that Rasulullah himself answered so many questions thrown at him?

    Again, the following are references to you to prove that you are wrong about Islam’s suggesting that Muslims give up a debate on it or be offensive in actions.

    “And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.” (QS Al-Ankabut : 46)

    And

    “Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.” (QS An-Nahl : 125)

    About raiding villages and killing countless people that rejected Islam, ha ha Juste, please read the Charter of Madina and how Rasulullah tried to establish a society comprising Muslims, Christians, and Jews in which every group was free to practice their religious conducts. Please be honest on your examination, Sir. Isn’t it also clear in the Charter that no Jew is wronged for being a Jew. Later, it was them who tried to ally with the Mecca pagans to initiate an attack to Muslims (and the established society). What? You think that Rasulullah as Muslims’ leader should have done nothing about it? Please try to picture your self when you are in charge of securing the safety of the people under your leadership. I noticed that sina has also failed to do so…. ha ha. and all he can do is judging a much greater task that he will never be capable of.

    Through what I learned from Islam's original teachings, Saudi's Government now doesn't really comply with Islamic teachings that Islamic society should be ruled by a Caliphate, not a King. This is of course Muslim's internal homework and not yours, gentlemen. 🙂

  354. Juste says:

    Hi Mr. Ihsan.
    You are the one who is being unlucky. Well, more of a shame really.
    You knew the truth, yet your shackled mind told you otherwise. That means what? Lies. Even defending this wretched creed.
    Here are some food for thought:
    Ever wonder why Muhammad/his allah forbade asking too much questions?
    Ever wonder why Muhammad/his allah encourage muslims to give up on debates (about Islam)?
    Aqidah is supposed to be true. No matter how people try to stain it, it supposedly should stay that way. But why good muslims are getting more and more defensive in defending it by offensive actions?
    About arrogance. Was it not Muhammad and his band of marauders that raided villages, kill countless men that rejected Islam, enslaved their widows, their children and enforced Islam upon them? Sounds like arrogance to me.
    Been to Saudi? For whatever reason, they have streets reserved exclusively to only muslims.
    See what i mean about Islamic brainwash?
    You knew that arrogance IS Islam. It’s in its veins. Yet you are trying to tell me otherwise.

  355. Sanada_10 says:

    He's done when you are done spewing fallacies. It all comes back to you, auntie.

    Your post here is nothing but begging your opponent. Islam indeed promotes arrogance to the outer party, that's why the arrogant attitude is mirrored back at you. I thought you read Quran.

  356. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Done with me Juste? 🙂 or you want to present more arguments.

    I say: it is unlucky you to have left Islam before no one told you that being arrogant was not promoted at all in Islam.

    Mr. Juste, please don't blame Islam for your being arrogant. 🙂

  357. Sanada_10 says:

    Calling name is not good of course but stating fact is. Truth is not the same with politeness. How many times do people have to explain it? Calling you an animal is calling name, but calling you a fallacious person is not. Your behavior fits that description.

  358. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    So you still think that calling names is a good way of arguing…….. 🙂

  359. Sanada_10 says:

    She mostly does the second one (IE), although the first (TSF) is quite often too. Her stupid laser is TSF.

  360. Juste says:

    Whatever, Mr. Ihsan.
    Like many muslims, you don’t read a lot i see.
    See what i mean about logical fallacies, TSF and ignoratio elenchi?
    Those were my precise diagnoses on you.
    Now you are using ad hominem against Sina. You are a riot.
    Btw, Sina can worship stones and rocks for all i care, as long as he doesn’t throw them at me.
    Muslims on the other hand worship a god that already been refuted, would lie on your face and stab you in the back if you turn around.

  361. Sanada_10 says:

    Juste, told you so. I'm right again on this one.

  362. Sanada_10 says:

    Sina denies the existence of personal god, an abrahamic god to be precise since it is narcissistic, violent and jealous. Well, this personal god is nothing more than human reflection. Auntie, your understanding of god is very little. You are contained in Islamic concept of god and think that there is no other version of god beside this silly allah.

    He described (the supposed) god in his article. He put many positive attributes to his "god" if the personal god must exist after all (for the sake of its fans). I know you have reading problem so slow down and read.

    Auntie, you hate to be wrong, don't you? When you are proven wrong you hate to admit it and you try so hard to twist and turn just like always. If something just can't be twisted you just run from it.

  363. Sanada_10 says:

    Irrelevant. In here, we're talking about Islam, its concept and how muslim society deals with other party, not USA. This US finger pointing is just repetition and doesn't make Islam better. Beside, mister president himself had stated that "America is fighting terrorism and violent dictatorship, not Islam" and in Islam, when muslim party fights with kafir party because of non religious reason, it is considered as "ordinary problem". Other muslims party doesn't have the obligation to help them, just like Saudi Arabia, eh?

  364. Sanada_10 says:

    Relax, relax, contain your emotion. You only shoot yourself here.

  365. Sanada_10 says:

    Whoa, slow down, you are giving irrelevant answer here. Why don't you read first and not going wild like this? Look again what you were talking about. Mine is fact, btw and I know you avoided it.. Dude, no one is pouncing you unless you feel that way because it hits the right spot.

    First of all, I know Islam better than you. Being believer doesn't mean being knowledgeable. Second, I never lie about Islam, I state what's in the Quran, Third, no correction from your side and no ignorance from me, let alone anger. On the contrary, it is you who are angry and don't want to accept the truth.

    Violence in society's level is a breakfast in muslim world. That's fact whether you like it or not. Stabbing, burning, destroying houses, killing minorities, attacking other religious people or building, you name it. All of these are in the name of "defending Islam" just like Muhammad who did many aggressive wars coated with "defensive excuse".

  366. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Why are you saying that I am wrong about sina's concept of God? In different occasions, he clearly denied the existence of God. 🙂

    What are you trying to say Juste? To tell people that sina believes in God when he has clearly confirmed that he does not?

    Please stop playing around with facts. 🙂 Even sina probably disagrees with you. he he

  367. Cool muslim says:

    ‘only the truth can make you angry and attack others in order to bury the truth.’
    Is this why i see
    -most of you here use indecent speech and waiting like lions to pounce on others
    -i dont see any reply to anything i say about the truth that has been hidden from you all,hidden by your people and the wise among your people bringing it up
    -the 9/11 attack,was not carried out by muslims,but muslims were blamed,just because the jews wanted to perform their ‘ritual’ of sacrificing every 11 years.(killing lives and destroying families,causing heartbreak,misery and sorrow.what do we call is-decency and completely unbarbaric?)
    -when USA is attacking muslim countries
    -the lawyers who were chosen by saddam hussain himself wer killed
    -you dont realy know the real religion of islam and u lie about it,and when muslims try to correct it,u ignore it,and get angry,simply because you dont want to accept it
    -you see people entering islam and accepting this faith and u see non muslims bringing in lies about it,and trying to make them turn back(count the websites made by the jews pretending to the public that its formed by muslims(truth makes them angry,thats why they do it,whatever said and done,islam is the fastest growing religon in the world)

  368. Cool muslim says:

    ‘only the truth can make you angry and attack others in order to bury the truth.’
    Is this why i see
    -most of you here use indecent speech and waiting like lions to pounce on others
    -i dont see any reply to anything i say about the truth that has been hidden from you all,hidden by your people and the wise among your people bringing it up
    -the 9/11 attack,waz not carried out by muslims,but muslims were blamed,just because the jews wanted to perform their ‘ritual’ of sacrificing every 11 years.(killing lives and destroying families,causing heartbreak,misery and sorrow.what do we call is-decency and completely unbarbaric?)
    -when USA is attacking muslim countries
    -the lawyers who were chosen by saddam hussain himself wer killed
    -you dont realy know the real religion of islam and u lie about it,and when muslims try to correct it,u ignore it,and get angry,simply because you dont want to accept it
    -you see people entering islam and accepting this faith and u see non muslims bringing in lies about it,and trying to make them turn back(count the websites made by the jews pretending to the public that its formed by muslims(truth makes them angry,thats why they do it,whatever said and done,islam is the fastest growing religon in the world)

  369. Juste says:

    Mr. Ihsan,
    Poor moi?
    Why? Because i have seen?
    Poor you. You knew the truth but you have to live in lies and hatred all your live. How can you stand all of it is beyond me.
    I think you are wrong about Sina’s concept of God. Muhammad’s god is a sick, vengeful and hateful entity (not to mention perverted) therefore, he can’t be a god, these are human traits, more specifically Muhammad’s traits. To make matters worse, Muhammad’s god see muslims that are sick, vengeful and hateful also perverted as signs of piety. Also, did i mention weak. Yes, Muhammad’s allah is a weak god. Why would he sent followers of Muhammad to fight “holy wars” by killing, raping and other “ungodly acts”? Why can’t Muhammad’s allah do his dirty work himself?
    Other gods? Well, let’s just say that we can be spiritual to a God that doesn’t have traits as i mention above.

  370. Cool muslim says:

    Name one muslim country that attacked a non muslim country and started a war?
    Ive heard that the USA attacked iraq,never heard that Iraq attacked USA.
    A person who attacks someone is called the attacker.
    A person who defends that attack is called the defender.
    A defense is always after a attack.

  371. Sanada_10 says:

    Muhammad was a lustful man. He saw Zainab naked and wanted her from his own adopted son. Seeing this, of course (as a devout follower) Zaid couldn't argue against Muhammad and wanted to divorce her. The point is, every women or girls Muhammad desired, had to be given to him, of course with justification such as "she was made not attractive to other men" or "allah commanded the marriage in heaven". This is cultist's thinking.

    You can see for yourself, for all this time all her points are debunked so she doesn't dare to discuss anything with me. What she seeks is non threatening post or something that can be attacked (ex. other religion). As if -1 -1 = 0. Also, she apparently has a personal grudge again her opponent, that' why she keeps ignoring the issue and personally attacks her opponent.

    She's also having a hard time understanding the situation. Sina never made Zainab as topic, but as trivial thing thus making no discussion about it but she misinterpreted it coz of her negative assumption and hatred towards Sina. She's got pumped up and concentrated on that only. About the dating, she also doesn't realize that anything that is in line with Islamic mission is ok to be practiced and there is no specific punishment for a mere date, indicating that this act is not a big deal as long as adultery doesn't happen. But how do you prove adultery anyway? That's another topic but brings down Islam even more.

    In the end, will she respond to this fact? I think not, she will repeat her refuted posts again.

  372. Sanada_10 says:

    Yo, take a look at your own post and her reply. Is there any connection between those 2?

    What I find amusing is your "over polite" words on her in the past and comparing it with the present. Yeah, sometimes truth hurts and lie doesn't.

  373. Sanada_10 says:

    Judging and complaining is your habit actually. What Sina had done is an analysis backed by proof and reference. His identity or habit is irrelevant. You keep shooting at the messenger. why auntie? Running out of argument?

    Muhammad never prophesied anything and people around him knew his lies. That's why they called him mad and liar. That's why Muhammad took military option in dealing with them.

    You are getting poorer on posting things, auntie. And talking about hiding, I suggest you again should look into the mirror.

    One more, mentioning Zainab as trivial thing doesn't mean hiding the fact. Let's say, Muhammad married 9 years old girl. Does that mean I'm hiding the name of Aisha? No, auntie because I am not discussing it, I merely mention it.

  374. Sanada_10 says:

    Sina had done that for years and not when cornered, beside shock therapy is one of the option to wake the patient. The good medicine is the bitter one.

    Islam doesn't teach arrogance? So, you don't even understand what an arrogance means.

  375. Sanada_10 says:

    Muhammad is an avenger, he took revenge on those who criticized him. Arrogance is an Islamic trait since this is supremacist ideology. Again, you provided no source.

    Sina is saving humanity by telling that Allah is not a god, not "god doesn't exist", these 2 sentences are different. Do you even read his article? Quit the assumption and start reading.

  376. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    About Friday prayer, yes Mr Juste,the mosque was full preparing ourselves for the forthcoming Ramadhan. There I realize that actually the arrogant are not Muslims since Muslims sincerely put their most respectful part of their bodies down to the earth to show respects to the only Creator.

    The arrogant are those who do not do that. 🙂

    But Islam still invites those still lacking of knowledge about it to learn and no longer be arrogant. 🙂

  377. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Ha ha ha

    He said he had much concern for humanity….. but by calling names when cornered? by calling Muslims the way he has called? (proofs available)

    Here,

    Rasulullah would pray for the goodness of those insulting him. 🙂

    No Sir, Islam never teaches anyone to be arrogant. It is probably the real you that can't be saved by in that way. Islam teaches that "Arrogance is Allah's robe, and none should wear it."

    No one ever told you that when you were still a Muslim? Poor you then, to have converted without anyone advising you this very basic of human status before their God. 🙂

    Doing for humanity by what, Mr Juste? By telling them that God doesn't exist? 🙂

  378. Juste says:

    Hi Mr. Ihsan,
    How was the Friday Prayer?
    Was it fulfilling? Or the usual old hate speech sugarcoated with new lies?
    Don’t answer that. It’s a rhetorical question.
    Yes Mr. Ihsan! You got me. I am an arrogant person.
    Little something that i still hold in Islamic values.
    Islam has been arrogant so far with multiple ayahs in Quran that say all others are considered inferior to muslims and deserved to be killed.
    I rejected Islam because of its layers of lies. And i despise it because of its attitudes toward humanity in general.
    Talk about Muhammad’s prophecies now? LOL.
    Fire at will, Mr. Ihsan. Although i won’t be paying much attention about it.
    There are two kinds of muslims regardless their sects:
    The ones who are truly ignorant about Islam like most muslims. And the ones who have learnt the the vileness Islam and love it still. People like you!
    I thought about not replying to your comments because you are a liar and a twister with your fallacies but i thought hey, poor Mr. Ihsan.
    And before you said anything about Sina.
    This man has his books sold in Amazon.com for $18.42.
    But he always offer muslims who would rather kill him than debate him free of charge. Even to braindeads. For what?
    To save your own sorry butts from this demonic creed.
    And people don’t think Sina as a prophet or somekind. He’s just a man.
    So, sorry to break this to you but i think Sina has been doing his part in saving humanity, how about you?
    Also a rhetorical question.

  379. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Ha ha ha. Juste, never from the first place that I had an intention to save Islam. Islam belongs to Allah. It will be me who is saved by Islam now and in the hereafter.

    It is all up to you that said you got over with alif lam mim joke already. Your expression shows how arrogant you are.

    Your were trying to emphasize how Muslims rode camels but you forgot that almost every body else during that time use animals for transportation.

    So, keep on your efforts to despise Islam.

    Supposing that you believe the soty about Zainab, what then?

    Well it basically tells us for sure that sina likes to hide facts to make him sound true. he he, as simple as that.

    Do you know Juste? that even Rasulullah's enemies had never found him saying a single lie before his prophecy? Did you ever read that? 🙂

    Like I said to sina, judging and complaining are always easy. It is the sort of job that losers are good at. I believe you are from the same country as mine as we countered each other in the indo version. So, to me, you are sounding like a fellow watching a simple game of chess telling the players to make moves but when playing him self, he never proves to be as good. 🙂

    Sina is too. 🙂

    He's been hiding behind his computer when judging Rasulullah but never let people know how he lives his life. I wonder who would listen to this self-proclaimed warrior of humanity. Even a mother would do anything to save her children, including facing dangers. 🙂

    sina? he he he

  380. Feefo says:

    Mr Sina was replying to the matter brought up by Tina. If we discuss Islam in relation to drinking alcohol, we don't need to bring in matters about what counts as halal food…. Think about it, if we did…how one can get distracted from the main topic of conversation in the first place….

  381. Juste says:

    Mr. Ihsan,
    I ain’t judging you, those are facts. And why do you think i am name-calling you? I address you with these crimes (TSF and Ignoratio elenchi). Like i address the crimes of Muhammad’s.
    Having no straight arguments means that you have no case means that you have lost. Your arguments won’t save Islam from shame anyway.
    Suppose i believe what you said about Zainab Binti Jash (doesn’t necessarily mean that i do), what then?
    Will it prove that Allah is God?
    Muhammad was truly a prophet not some psychopathic warlord as he appeared to be?
    Will it dismiss the fact that Islam is a lie?
    Will it blur the fact that Quran was most likely to be written by some barely literrate camel herders that collected scimitars and lifeless heads out of Muhammad’s insanity episodes?
    Get over with that alif, lam, mim joke already.
    Ps: you really should be more attentive to Sanada’s posts, correct points are raised regarding Zainab.

  382. Sanada_10 says:

    Auntie, the skipping part is irrelevant. Read the link, skipper. In there you can find why Muhammad said "no" or why Zaid came to him or why this little info brings down Muhammad even more.

    The main issue is really relationship (already answered) and you have brought irrelevant topic "Zainab". Sina mentioned Zainab in response to Probir's post (not as topic or article). You are having hard times understanding things.

    The one that wrongly accuses anyone is you.

  383. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ overview

    The main issue here is relationships.

    Your idol sina did skip the fact about Zaid visiting for Rasulullah’s advice about divorcing Zainab to which Rasulullah said No. Sina has not answered me why he did that after having claimed that he knows Islam more than anyone else.

    Sir, you are accusing a wrong person.

  384. Sanada_10 says:

    Like I told you, calling names usually use irrelevant name, not accurate one. Calling you a coward is not calling names but fact. Talking about "no more argument". I suggest you look into the mirror yourself. You have brought nothing but repetition. When you see an answer, you avoid it and post the same thing again.

  385. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste cont….

    and perhaps you should diagnose your self for having a habit of calling names. Arguments take a clear head and clear heads usually don't belittle the other party and call names when having no more argument to present. 🙂

  386. Sanada_10 says:

    Dear, oh dear, he's stating fact and the answer for your query is already here. You refuse to read anything but force others to read. Before you call someone else as "judge", why don't you fix your own behavior, judge?. Sina had already debated scholars for years and you, as a small time debater, never understand that. For your info, Islamic scholars never refute anything as you can see from the articles.

    I know your cowardice, but at least be brave once and read my link. It's about Zainab.

  387. Sanada_10 says:

    Touche, watch as she avoids me over and over again.

  388. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    Again, if all you can do is judging, why complicates your self in arguments? 🙂

    A simple proof of sina's lack of knowledge in Islam has been ignored by the writer. How can he rebut Islamic scholars if he can't even answer why he lied on Zainab's case? 🙂

  389. Juste says:

    Sanada,
    Your “boy” here has a case of:
    “Texas sharpshooter fallacy”: improperly asserting a cause to explain a cluster of data.
    Or:
    “Ignoratio elenchi” (irrelevant conclusion, missing the point): an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question.
    So…
    I’m confused to which one should my diagnose be. Both i think.
    Yup! Nothing new here. It’s only muslims.

  390. Sanada_10 says:

    Sigh, repeating yourself again. The problem is not located in the "dating" beside, prohibition of dating is bad for relationship. You have to read the letter clearly. Muslim has the obligation to spread Islamic teaching to the kafirs. By doing what? Deception (if you are weak), but how about kafir's way of life that includes dating? You can use that too. Any kind of deed in the name of Islam shouldn't be considered as sin. Killing is a sin but killing for Islam is not, adultery is a sin but raping slave and captive is not. Look at the bigger picture, kid., – 1 will be erased with 10. If this was about islamic society then your point would be valid but it was not.

  391. Abdullah ihsan says:

    A dating Muslim is automatically not practicing Islamic teachings, so it is not relevant to judge Islam with one case of a male Muslim dating a non-Muslim lady. sina, who claimed to know Islam, instead of simply telling the fact that obedience Muslims don't date, went on telling other irrelevant things. 🙂

  392. Sanada_10 says:

    Because you don't read the link I gave you and yours is useless repetition. Dating has nothing to do in this case if you're paying attention.

  393. Abdullah ihsan says:

    I haven't seen sina's reply on how he lied on the fact that Zaid had come several times to Rasulullah to ask about his opinion about him divorcing Zainab to which Rasulullah said no?

    And why sina had no guts to tell the truth that obedience Muslims don't date at all?

  394. Monalisa says:

    Tina,

    I know that romance is obsessive. If this guy loves you, he would not try to force you to change your beliefs or force you to believe in something you find absurd.
    You said you are an atheist and he is a muslim. Is he a typical, religious muslim?
    If he is, then it is better for you to keep away from him, because those religious people turn
    life to hell.

  395. Sanada_10 says:

    Ssshhh, Islamic standard is different and fitnah is worse than killing. Also, they have their own dictionary for each word such as "attack", "defend", "good", or "evil. Once you know what their center point is, the rest is predictable. BTW, they are pretty much barbaric too since they follow the barbaric prophet.

    And yeah, when you are accused of something bad you just say, "prove it". Only the truth can make you angry and attack others in order to bury that truth.

  396. helx says:

    You call destroying someones house by "defending"? Well, this is I always hear from muslims… the only thing you know is to ruin, destroy, harm, ravage, and tell lies… it is your only solution to everything. Quran sounds like a simple book for simple people…

    To answer your question, I do not "defend" myself if someone else says I did something bad. It is because I try not to do bad things so what the person say is a lie or a mistake. The truth usually comes out later without my effort. Meantime, I do not need to act like an idiot 😉

  397. Sanada_10 says:

    Again and again you provided no source. Actually Muhammad was shackled to his own tribe and performed favoritism.

  398. Sanada_10 says:

    That in depth study never come from you so you are the who should study first. Knowledge breeds confidence but so does ignorance. It's easy to differentiate those 2.

  399. Cool muslim says:

    @lonelyloner

    u say that the muslims were destroying ur house.fyi,they are defending themselves,not waging war.if someone slaps u out of nowhere,falsely claiming that u did something wrong,wouldnt u defend yourself?

    And the other deceiving is something which is more complicated.that is the biggest deception,and its your own people who prove to the world that the world is deceived.ive watched loads of documentaries,made by your people,proving the truth.

    Ive read reliable information provided by your people.

    It was only after that i opened my eyes,and saw the truth myself..

  400. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ overview

    To you I also suggest that you read Islam's first generation and make your own in-depth study and comparisons. I hope you won’t be as too over confident as you are now. 🙂

  401. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Free-from-shackles

    (or maybe you are everin? If not, then forgive me because I noticed that it was everin who mentioned this ‘cheating’ claim about which I never talked to anyone else in this forum)

    Are you saying that those Arabs enjoying to make such calls are good Muslims? If you are, then it’s like saying all white guys are red necks/racists – all Indians are cheaters – all Jews are stingy – all Indonesians are corruptors, all Cubans are drug dealers – all Italians are Mafioso – all French are sex lovers – and so on.

    No Sir, you are being unfair.

    Please note that being an Arab in Saudi doesn’t necessarily make one a good Muslim. It takes more than that. And please note this carefully. Rasulullah once said: “No Arab is better than a non-Arab except by Taqwa, and vise versa.” If you don’t know what Taqwa means, please spend your valuable time finding about it as it takes an open heart to understand it. This teaching is basically one of the principles why I am a Muslim as I am relearning about it.

    If some Saudians are still practicing that habit of seeing themselves as better than others, then they are definitely not practicing Rasulullah’s teachings. As simple as that, although I know it must be hard to tell them so as they are proud that Allah’s last messenger was of their race. Please refer to Rasulullah’s and his other best companions’ ways of behaving towards Bilal and Salman al Farisi (both were not Arabs) if want to see the real Islam.

    Please Sir, read about Islam especially in the conducts of its first generations. By that you’ll find founding standards upon which all aspects of life can be addressed beautifully.

  402. everin says:

    God is perfect in the sense that He is always cleansing the sins of evil doers. He had "misguided" them to attack the super powers, thereby sacrificing themselves as pawns n the happiness of their grieving families. If u are misguided to do evil, u have to pay for it under God's Law of Karma = u reap what u have sow. One good example was the eathquake cum tsunami in Japan. During WW2 the soldiers of the Japanese Imperial army bombed, killed, raped millions of people. In return their soldiers were killed n their cities were bombed by the US warplanes. The US had to resort to using the Atomic bombs to make them surrender n pay. As if these punishment were not enough esp.when the Jap refused to pay compensation to the victims of WW2, God striked them with a devastating tsunami. Remember, always, never transgress God's law of not doing evils to others, coz u may escape punishment from man but not from God. Or u get both.

  403. Lonelyloner says:

    About what Cool muslim said about 'deception'
    "the media is in the hands of the worshippers of satan,so they will portray islam in such an ugly way."

    I don't get that man. I have seen with my own eyes, right in front of me, people shouting Allahu Akbar and raiding and burning things. I did not see that through the TV screen, it's all right in front of me.
    I have seen them burn down my family's house too.

    Now what part of this is deception? Who else do these terrible things while joyfully praising Allahu Akbar?

    Islam has an ugly side, and that, dear Cool Muslim, is NOT media deception. That is very real, and it is a FACT. Do not BS me with this argument ever again.

  404. Cool muslim says:

    Alright alright..da car example is from the human mind..not Gods right..nly God is perfect..
    The example of embrology,is perfect right..flawless..thats a sign from God..surely no human can find any flaw in any creation of God..do u agree to that…
    And i dont think u can deny the fact that we all are being deceived everyday…can u?

  405. Sanada_10 says:

    I see you have the habit of deleting your own comments. Maybe you'll delete this one too. Better be quick guys.

  406. everin says:

    I blame both driver n the car for any fatal accident. The driver surely would have been instructed how to drive. The car may be blamed for having bald tyres, bad brakes, bad alighment, misfiring plugs, etc. because it was a very old, old car. He should not have driven it in the 1st place.. This "logic" of Dr. Zaki Naik sounds hollow.

  407. Cool muslim says:

    My dearest brothers n sisters..y not ponder at atlst 1 miracle of GOD?even if embrology is all biological process,the baby comes out of a mother,wit a soul.its not dead,is it?do u think that a woman can give a part of her soul her baby..no..only god can give a soul..so dont u think that god does exist?i know that u r now begining to think that,ok..this is true,but deep inside,u tend not to accept the real facts..i dont blame u at all..its not ur fault at al..but,please do take time and ponder over what im trying to explain to u.

    U do believe that god does exist..and u do know that satan is all around.it is satan who is beside u,whispering into ur ears,telling u to shun god and do evil.dnt listen to him.he wants to take u to hell with him.i read the comments all of u hav written.

    My dearest brothers and sisters,let me ask u..if a person who doesnt know to drive,tries to drive it,and knocks over,do u blame the driver or the car..?without doubt,u blame the driver..so now,if some of the muslims dont follow islam totally,and u watch them and hav the wrong idea of islam,do u blame the muslims or islam?just like the car,the muslims represent islam..just becouse they dont practice islam in the way they are asked to practice in their scripture,blame them,and not islam.most of u have untrue facts about the life of the last prophet muhammadh(sal)..dont let ur self go astray.take just 10 minutes of ur life and read the real life of muhammadh(sal).its very different from what u say.and if u want the truth,read the quran.ul den understand islam.muslims are not terrorists.the media is in the hands of the worshippers of satan,so they will portray islam in such an ugly way.u have been deceived,and u still are being deceived,about all things,even the colour of the moon!u still havent seen the real moon,watch ‘moon rising’,watch ‘the arrivals’,u get it even on youtube.see and enjoy all the beautiful things in ur life.love others,and be happy..ul have a beautiful life where ur heart will be free of all worries.dont let the people deceive u.learn why u hav 1 eye on ur dollar note.keep learning.go back to ur scripture,it tells u about islam.y do u think,that still,with all the lies that people say,islam is the fastest growing religion in the world..god has created u,n created love in ur hearts..dont let that beautiful love u have inside u,although u dont know it,die away..dont let ignorance prevail.god is all forgiving.god comes to u running when u take a step towards him.if islam is not true,then y do u think,people still embrace it.everybody wants happines..dont criticise or argue.smile and be happy..u have seen cat stevens happy after he became a muslim right..

    U all now hav a golden opportunity.u r reading this coz god wanted u to read it.god is showing u something..dont ignore it..maybe this is once in ur life..

    May Allah guide u always,Allah loves u,whether u r muslim or not,thats why He created u,and blessed u with all the beautiful things in ur life..

  408. Juste says:

    That’s correct, FFS!
    I have a great sentence for Islam:
    “Barbarism of The Bedouins”.
    It’s from a Persian fellow.

  409. overview says:

    This Ihsan fellow is a spin doctor who keeps spinning out lies n skiping facts n the main issues, just like many of his kind. He only deludes himself n no other, becoz he cannot face realities n facts. Pitiful fellow.

  410. Free-from-shackles says:

    @ Ihsan, Generally the Saudi Bedouins call the non-Saudi foreigners (Muslims as well ) as “MUQH MAAFI” or “MAAFI MUQH”, which means “BRAINLESS” or “FOOLS”. So as I have said u n yr ancestors had been cheated by the Arabs. Go to Islam Watch n see the rest of the story.

  411. Sanada_10 says:

    Does everyone here find it very odd? Just look at the 4 points Jack had asked. None of it was discussed. Not slavery, not violence, not Jewish slavery freeing, not Muhammad's moral, not India and Pakistan etc and last but not least, not the old questions in page one. What a weird brain mechanism. People call that a cowardice.

  412. Sanada_10 says:

    Agreed, it's proven.

  413. Sanada_10 says:

    Source needed.

  414. Sanada_10 says:

    Ugh, repeated materials. Muhammad was not gentle to pagans, he mocked them when inviting them. You didn't read mine. Read, kid, read, it's all there. Charter of Medina, etc, it's there.

    Before asking Australia (whose citizens are targeted by the jihadists) to make a muslim as prime minister, you should see into the mirror yourself. In Quran, non muslims have to be subjugated, muslims must rule over them. There is no such thing as "making non muslims as leaders". Prime Minister is the highest authority in Australia so it will be impossible for muslim to be the leader. No sane human want that coz sharia law will surely follow. In muslim countries, especially with sharia law, non muslims and women will never be leaders of the nations, while non muslims have provided that right to women.

    Ahmadiyah cannot change its name because its against its own belief. Do you want to change muslim belief because it has blasphemed Christianity? you are so selfish, auntie, you only look at one glasses. Oh, and your post is lacking reference not to mention its irrelevancy.

  415. Sanada_10 says:

    You don't want to repeat? What are you doing all this time? You are repeating your own posts, dude. BTW, he's not careless, he's complaining about the violence in Islam. Re-read his post too.

  416. Sanada_10 says:

    Er, he's stating fact not name calling. Name calling usually done with irrelevant name, not accurate one.

  417. Sanada_10 says:

    Still think she's mature?

  418. Sanada_10 says:

    My questions still unanswered auntie.

  419. Juste says:

    Look Mr. Ihsan,
    I never meant it in a derogatory sense.
    But try to answer some questions from our friends next time instead of avoiding it.
    For the sake of argument. Think of this as my honest critism to you.

  420. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Juste

    I too know yours. 🙂

  421. Juste says:

    You are a lousy debater Mr. Ihsan.
    You twist, you turn. But you don’t give straight answer.
    Look around! Everybody has problems with you.
    Don’t worry, i won’t engage you. I know your kind.

  422. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ juste

    If all you can do is calling names, why bother to engage yourself in arguments? 🙂

  423. Juste says:

    Jack,
    When arguing with Ihsan, be careful on stepping on some bullsh!t.
    He’s full of it!

  424. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ jack

    You are so careless. 🙂

    Please reread my reply t to your post carefully. I don't want to repeat.

  425. jack says:

    @Abdullah ihsan

    You're such a clown :))

    "Islamic teachings wherein every body is equal before Allah’s laws. Justice has been only for those with powers"

    My life experiences in Indonesia was telling different things as a non-muslim.
    If the true justice is applied in Indonesia, there will be no FPI, Laskar Jihad, and etc.
    If a muslim rejected his faith, his life is "halal" to be killed.

    I think Gus Dur is better version than Umar bin Adul Aziz. At least he had never gone into war, killed people in the name of religion. Probably, that's some exceptions in the dark side of Muhammad's teaching.

    Here is another small example …. If all humans are equal in the sharia law, why my blood is cheaper than others.
    In Saudi Arabia, when a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the prescribed blood money rates are as follows[8]:
    100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
    50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
    50,000 riyals if a Christian or Jewish man
    25,000 riyals if a Christian or Jewish woman
    6,666 riyals if a man of any other religion
    3,333 riyals if a woman of any other religion

  426. Abdullah ihsan says:

    a little addition to my post:

    You will also find Umar bin Abdul Aziz asking his men to break down a Mosque newly built on a land whereon a church was previously destroyed by force, and instructing them to rebuild the church.

  427. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ jack

    Thank you for being honest.

    I was going to reply to your first post but you have questioned me more on your second. So I’ll go with the second first. 🙂

    When concerning rituals, of course almost all Muslims here in Indonesia are good. They practice sholat, they fast, they donate, and so on. Most of them are (including me) ordinary Muslims who are not in any capacity for greater Islamic tasks.

    But Sir, despite the high percentage of Muslim population, please remember that Indonesia is not an Islamic country. This nation’s laws have been based on something else and not the Holy Quran. Please keep that in mind before I go on.

    When it comes to broader Islam particularly that concerning leadership, all knowledgeable scholars agree that none of our Indonesian Muslim leaders (or even today’s Islamic country leader) has applied the very basic principle of Islamic teachings wherein every body is equal before Allah’s laws. Justice has been only for those with powers.

    Muslims are proud of being what they are but only few really understand the importance of Islamic leadership. Frankly speaking, most of us here haven’t been very good Muslims. Some of us even love to insult other religions, something which actually is never taught in Islam.

    It is true that Rasulullah invited the pagans to leave the false gods they worshipped, but such invitation was told repeatedly in his gentle manner. Please ask any reputable scholar that you might know of about Islam’s suggestion to Muslims to engage themselves in a polite debate with the Ahlul Kitaab (can be Christians and others).

    Regarding good Islamic leaders, for this moment all I can suggest you is read the first generation Muslims and few outstanding succeeding Islam caliphates. You will find, amongst many stories, that Umar bin Khattab would punish his Governors who forcefully took a Jew’s land. You will also find Umar bin Abdul Aziz asking his men to break down a Mosque newly built on a land whereon a church was previously destroyed by force. His action caused contras from his contemporary Islamic scholar companions, but as they started complaining, he ordered to do the crushing sooner. This young caliphate loved Sharia laws of course, but in that particular case, he simply showed a perfect example of justice.

    If you have read these by any chance, please learn to read between the lines. Please also read the Charter of Medinah during Rasulullah’s time where it was stipulated that no Jew is wronged for being a Jew.

    About non Muslim being second class in Indonesia, apart from the fact that this nation is not Islamicly ruled, it is also very likely for Muslims to be in similar position in non Muslim countries. Adzan is not allowed in America. And wouldn’t be it astonishing if Australia lets a Muslim to be her Prime Minister? 🙂

    About Ahmadiyah, you must have noticed that Ahmadiyah is more than welcome to have a different name other than Islam for its religious teachings. It’s fixed for every Muslim that Muhammad is the last Messenger of Islam.

  428. lycmng says:

    @ihsan,a SINGLE MAN that is prophet Mahamad is accused of of all this,!!!!!!!!you are pointing in all the directions !!you are asking to look around ,towards self and friends!!!!
    Let us assume for while that we are lecherous and indulge in adultery but we are not claiming that we are some prophet sent by some GOD!!!!1

  429. Sanada_10 says:

    What this auntie had meant was your own belief, your very identity, your god etc. She will keep pestering that point until you forgot the initial topic. I assume you have read the indo version? You should know that from there.

  430. jack says:

    @Abdullah ihsan

    Here are my background:
    My grandfather was hindu. My grandmother was atheist before she converted into Islam because of the pressure from my uncles (I knew this).

    My father was a muslim before.
    And I'm a non muslim Indonesian.

    I know most of Indonesian muslims are moderate and loving people which is a good thing. Also Indonesia doesn't apply sharia-law except in Aceh. But in reality … non-muslim are still second class in Indonesia. Imagine if Indonesia applied sharia-law like Malaysia or Arab Saudi. That would be a nightmare!!! There is no freedom of faith because in the Quran there is only commandment.

    You can't argue with it. If you against the Quran or Muhammad's teaching, then you know what happen.
    You can see the killings & persecutions of the Ahmmadiyah's in West Java.
    The Ahmmadiyahs are nice & peaceful people but why all the Indonesian muslims want them to be banned. This Indonesian muslims are muslim leaders in the government, Islamic party, and universities. I'm sure they are smart. But, the question is WHY they don't let the Ahmmadiyahs live peacefully. So … there must be something WRONG with Muhammad's teaching.

    Next, let's compare the Javanese muslims who graduated from "Pondok Pesantren" (Islamic School) with the ones from public schools. In general, WHY does public school produce a tolerant person than Islamic School? Something wrong with the Muhammad's teaching???

  431. Sanada_10 says:

    That's the exact problem. She always bring other religions and avoids Islam altogether. An active thief who shouts at another repented thief.

  432. Sanada_10 says:

    His identity is irrelevant, auntie. Whether he is an atheist or not, it won't erase slavery in Islam. You love to divide humanity just like your prophet.

  433. Juste says:

    Take your time, Mr. Ihsan.
    Don’t have to worry about religions other than Islam. Only Islam permits killing, deceiving, raping, enslavement and other bad things.
    You can always base your arguments under
    Islam versus Humanity.
    That’s about right.

  434. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Jack

    I'm a sorry I have something better to do right now. I'll reply to you soon, alright? But please at least tell me what you are (an atheist or belonging to any religion) so I'll base my argument accordingly… 🙂

  435. jack says:

    @Abdullah ihsan

    I think you were talking non-sense.

    1. "It is of Islamic teachings to free slaves" … before Islam existed, The Jews did it first already (read the Moses Book first).

    2. Western countries & Islam did slavery in the past. The difference is slavery has been abolished in the Western countries. How about in the Arab countries?
    They are still doing it? How about the treatment of Arab Saudi to Indonesian's maid? I assume all of them are muslim.

    3. Now, let's compare between India & Pakistan. India is a democratic country which allows any religion live in it. Move to Pakistan, it is a muslim country with Islamic law. I can see Pakistan is more violent than India.

    4. Mohammad's moral standard is questionable. Probably it was fine at the time, but it is not valid any more. For example:
    – he killed others direct/indirectly
    – he had a sex with more than 1 women.
    -etc

    Are you sure he was a good man? Are you sure he is in the heaven above?
    If yes, why does all the muslims always pray for Mohammad to be safe in the heaven?
    So, is there any chance that Mohammad is burnt in hell right now because of his sins?

  436. Sanada_10 says:

    Sigh, irrelevant again. The emperor system wasn't the product of Hinduism and it has nothing to do with this topic, beside imperial system is neither good nor evil, just like any other system, it depends on the ruler. Why deny the slavery in Islam eh? It's as bright as the sun.

    Hinduism is indeed the oldest religion on this world, go googling from historical POV not religious POV. Let me ask you this,

    1. Where did you get 5 times daily prayer?
    2. Where did you get stoning?
    3. Where did you get loudspeaker?
    4. Where did you get Miraj?

    Are you sure your religion is not corrupted coz I know it is. I know, I know, you are afraid of me so you will repeat that sentence of yours again and again.

    Since you are only at layman level you should try to read this. But the problem is, will you read it? so far, you've ignored the links I've shown you.

    We are judging Islam because of the proof not because of other religions, that's irrelevant. 2 wrongs don't make one right. Pretending that other religions are wrong too, does that make Islam right? Or is this the best you can give, just shouting to others like a child? You still haven't answered the BS in Quran. You avoided it. Those BS won't go away just because there are BS in other religions.

    I just couldn't fathom your brain mechanism here. You have used man made hadith to prove the supposed divine book. Clear narrations doesn't guarantee anything if there is no Quranic sanction. It's just a chain of memory and memory fails often, let alone the possibility of lying.

  437. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Prithvi

    🙂

    The fact that you now are not in the oppressive shackles of an emperor system is obvious. Why deny it? You told me to have a complete knowledge, but I'd like to suggest that you go through worlds' history including that of your nation and religion…. carefully.

    I'm not fooling myself. But referring to your claim about your religion being the oldest in the world, I'm telling you just in case you are in doubts whether or not your way of praying is still the same as it was when initially taught. In Islam, Sholat is taught in details through clear narrations of highly dedicated scholars.

    I don’t mean to throw any insult, I just want you to see comparisons objectively before judging Islam the way you’ve been doing.

  438. Sanada_10 says:

    I''d seen that since our exchanges in indonesian version of this site. She's naturally like that. Imagine you were talking about violence in religion then suddenly this auntie talked about Jewish company and greed, it's hilarious. Not only that, she picked my words like an auntie picking vegetables in the market.

  439. Sanada_10 says:

    Let me represent her.

    Er, ehm, but Abu Bakr freed a slave. That's a gold point and shows that Islam er, ehm, uh, … against slavery? Yeah, that must be it! Haha, I've proven something here. Don't forget, black Americans … US slavery … (chant this mantra every night and you'll feel better).

  440. Sanada_10 says:

    Bon appetit then.

  441. Juste says:

    Mr. Ihsan,
    You can sell lies and twisting tricks for as long as you like. After all, you’re a muslim.
    But the fact remains that Quran still endorses slavery. And there’s absolutely nothing any muslim can say to change that. The facts all there in the Quran.

  442. Sanada_10 says:

    Dude, you are rambling without direction here. Shameful, really

  443. Juste says:

    Yup, Sanada.
    It’s me. Changed my nick to plain Juste instead of Just Dan.
    Besides it sounds more “french”. 😉

  444. Sanada_10 says:

    Yo Juste, are you Just Dan?

  445. Sanada_10 says:

    Half knowledge = half brain = half intelligence. That's inherited in her case.

  446. Prithvi says:

    Ha ha ha 🙂 right, did you also notice him changing the topic suddenly yet again 🙂 on the next page?
    That is the best he is capable of but I am still glad he is trying and the day he will start questioning things, he would be free!

  447. Sanada_10 says:

    Juste = slavery is legal and encouraged in Islam
    Auntie = Abu Bakr freed slave
    The whole black Americans are compared to one slave as if one slave can represent the whole.

    What kind of reply is this?

    J: Stealing is legal and encouraged, it is not a sin
    A: Abu Bakr gave back what he'd stolen

    Does this even answer the statement? Why are you so afraid talking about Quran and Muhammad. eh? Abu Bakr was an isolated incident and he had done the selfish act after Muhammad's death. Come on kid, back to Muhammad and Islam.

    Ah, slavery in US. Why do you even talk something that doesn't even have religious sanction? Who stopped slavery? US or muslims? Who is scoring the most point? The one that freed all the slaves on this earth from past, present, future and put an end to it once and for all OR the one that freed one slave but bought another thus making slavery unstoppable? I urge and compel you to answer this in order to show some bravery in your silly mind at least once.

    In Islam, muslims are encouraged to take slaves and freeing slaves is just for certain condition, just like using your money.

    You wrote, "if by any chance slavery comes into existence"

    Dude, you are so.. I don't know what to say… Slavery wouldn't be there or "existed by any chance" if Muhammad didn't practice it in the first place and legalize it. Clean your brain, will you? If he stopped that the story would be different but he didn't.

    Here's what I ask, give me the supportive verse from Quran about your last, repeated words.

  448. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, that means Indians were "modern" too with their system at that time.

  449. Sanada_10 says:

    Dude, she's the one who replied Vedic science with irrelevant Purana, worse of it , this auntie brought the fake one. What can you expect from her?

  450. Sanada_10 says:

    Kid, slavery in Islam is rationalized and institutionalized, it would exist forever if US didn't stop it. So there is no need for any slaves to fight for their freedom.

    In Islam you can free slaves (with certain condition) and acquire slaves (with broader condition). Bilal is again and again irrelevant. In the end, slavery is not a sin.

    Caste system in India is no more at national level. Can you give scripture's sanction on that? Come one, behave intelligently as least once.

  451. Prithvi says:

    Abdullah,

    See, I was sure you would take a u-turn. ha ha ha 🙂
    You were giving lectures about something else 😀

    See guys, all of you and all of you irrespective of how GOD was handed over to you by your parents, here is another example of this self-proclaimed Islamic scholar who has the potential of not standing firm for an issue, even has the capacity to take turns as in when required ^_^

    Keep lying to yourself Abdullah, you are fooling no one else BUT YOURSELF

  452. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan

    You are time and again proving your are a nuts case and a brain dead moron. Allah commanded Muslims in the Quran to enslave non-Muslims but you are shamelessly lying that Islam teaches to free slaves. As per Quranic teachings and Muhammad's Sunnah, freeing a Muslim slave is a virtue and enslaving millions of non-Muslims by aggressive raids and wars also is a virtue. What a stupid and barbaric religion Islam is!!!

    Slavery is a holy commandment from Allah valid for all times as per the Quran but the kafir world has banished slavery for ever.

  453. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Prithvi

    Complete knowledge? 🙂

    Let's put it brief. Would you be able to read the Holy Veda if you were still in the emperor system? Wouldn't you be killed by your 'lovely' kings when found reading it?

    Please don't be too confident with your statement. It was Rasulullah followed by his best caliphates who told the world that there was other way of ruling than emperor system. 🙂

    By the way, who told you that the way you worship God is still the same as it was initially taught? Any evidence that it is? 🙂

  454. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Justee

    Don't be stupid.

    What I said about Abu Bakr is true and you can find it in Islam's history. 🙂

    He was the perfect example on a noble man other than His prophets. He understood Al-Quran and that was why he freed Bilal no matter how much it cost him. How come you missed this part if you claimed to know Islam?

    Who do you mean by the non-muslims? 🙂

    There is no more slavery in the US of course. But my point is: It was the African American who fought for it and their freedom was not given by churches' order, nor was it by the sincerity of the white guys to give it up.

    Have you got that 'honest boy'?

    In Islam, Muslims are encourage to free their slaves if by any chance slavery comes into existence. 🙂

  455. Prithvi says:

    Furthermore, let me also tell you what you see today is a far worse discrimination originating not from the ancient Hindu periods but the brain child of modern day politicians and especially the corrupt ones who divide the country on the lines of ethnicity, religion, caste but call themselves secular. They would talk ill about Islam when visiting a Hindu dominated area and the opposite when visiting a Muslim dominated area.

    Get your facts correct and when you read something, try to read between the lines and get the larger picture. Always try to get the complete knowledge about any topic before opening your mouth for it

  456. Prithvi says:

    Now why position them as the untouchables?

    Number 1 – we are talking about roughly 4000 – 5000 bc and in the absence of the modern day techniques for cleaning and soaps and disinfectants, any man was highly justified in stopping a person from entering his/her kitchen if the man is by profession a toilet cleaner. Same rule applies for the places of worship but in this case it is originating more form the point of reverence. Furthermore, a particular job which has been passed down to you by generation also tends to shape up your personality. By this I mean, even if I take training for it, I would never be able to clean or deal with a corpse.

    Number 2 – every man by virtue of the job he does is either looked up or looked down. It happens even today. A simple example would be me and the Prime Minister of my country.

    Cont

  457. Prithvi says:

    Furthermore, let me also tell you what you see today is a far worse discrimination originating not from the ancient Hindu periods but the brain child of modern day politicians and especially the corrupt ones who divide the country on the lines of ethnicity, religion, caste but call themselves secular. They would talk ill about Islam when visiting a Hindu dominated area and the opposite when visiting a Muslim dominated area.

    Get your facts correct and when you read something, try to read between the lines and get the larger picture. Always try to get the complete knowledge about any topic before opening your mouth for it.

  458. Prithvi says:

    Now why position them as the untouchables?

    Number 1 – we are talking about roughly 4000 – 5000 bc and in the absence of the modern day techniques for cleaning and soaps and disinfectants, any man was highly justified in stopping a person from entering his/her kitchen if the man is by profession a toilet cleaner. Same rule applies for the places of worship but in this case it is originating more form the point of reverence. Furthermore, a particular job which has been passed down to you by generation also tends to shape up your personality. By this I mean, even if I take training for it, I would never be able to clean or deal with a corpse.

    Number 2 – every man by virtue of the job he does is either looked up or looked down. It happens even today. A simple example would be me and the Prime Minister of my country.

    Cont.

  459. Prithvi says:

    Now why form it?

    The answer is simple. In the absence of specialized schools for training, the tricks of the trade, the craftsmanship, the knowledge associated with a particular trade or job was passed on to the child by his father. So the son a warrior becomes a warrior, the son of a priest becomes a priest and the son of the Chandal (someone who deals with the disposal of a corpse) becomes a Chandal.

    This justifies the creation of such a system wherein you have people available in a society to run the society for all types of jobs in the absence of let us say a vocational training college or school.

    Clear enough?

    Cont.

  460. Prithvi says:

    Abdullah!

    Let me again tell you that half knowledge is very dangerous.

    THE PRACTICE OF CASTE SYSTEM IN INDIA WAS OFFICIALLY ABOLISHED IN INDIA IN 1950.

    I would not respond to any of your other hollow arguments but the one with which you have ended your comment with, the caste system of India.

    You Muslims and especially the Muslims of India when get cornered by your own hollow teachings and knowledge point out about the caste system of India, now let me throw some light to you on the caste system of India.

    THE CASTE SYSTEM IN INDIA WAS ESTABLISHED DURING TIMES WHEN EVEN THE FORE-FATHERS OF MUHAMMAD WERE NOT BORN.

    Cont.

  461. Juste says:

    Mr. Ihsan.
    Please have some dignity and decency to refrain yourself from lying.
    While the non-muslims abolished slavery many years ago, muslims still endorse it.
    The Qur’an includes multiple references to slaves, slave women, slave concubinage, and the freeing of slaves. It accepts the institution of slavery. It may be noted that the word ‘abd’ (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such asma malakat aymanukum (“that which your right hands own”).
    The Qur’an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter.

  462. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    It is of Islamic teachings to free slaves, if by any chance slavery comes to existence. There is no narration that says slaves had to fight for their freedom during Rasulullah's time. Abu Bakr was the perfect example of a noble man who would have paid the highest price to free Bilal.

    Later after the era of Rasulullah, when asked by Bilal whether he freed him for other reasons, Abu Bakr stressed that he did that purely for Allah. That was why it was alright for Abu Bakr when Bilal refused to call for an Adzan when he asked him to.

    The case was different from the African American freedom in the US. They had to fight for their freedom. It was not a gift from the Caucasians nor was it from the churches, but rather a result of long struggles in which Dr. Martin L King Jr. made his famous speeches and movement.

    Too, can you in your country demolish the caste system which has been there since time immemorial? This practice can't be said as humanity either, can it?

  463. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan

    Remember, our topic is the hideous crimes perpetrated by Muhammad. You purposely ignore the issue at hand and divert it by bringing in other issues like crimes committed by others which are irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

    Note that the crimes committed by others cannot justify the crimes perpetrated by Muhammad. It is common sense.

    Either you give answer to our charges against Muhammad if you can or accept Muhammad was a false prophet, leave Islam and join the rest of mankind.

  464. Sanada_10 says:

    Ohhh, the irrelevant and emotional response keeps coming here. Not to mention the hypocrisy in the first sentence.

    Ah, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, isn't it? It's irrelevant and I've explained in it indo site. Japan and US is good friend now and none if these will ever happen again unlike Islam. So US shouldn't be the peace keeper coz their history, but Muhammad and Islam can? It's the same dude, it's worse, in fact.

    The difference, kid, read the difference I''d posted. Why do you keep repeating stuff here?

    Highest record is irrelevant, what's relevant is the present day and the future.

    I see you try to attack other scriptures but do you even know other scriptures? So far, you know nothing. Present day, kid, present day. Read, kid, read.

  465. Sanada_10 says:

    See? Cherry picking keeps going on here. Watch her reply.

  466. Sanada_10 says:

    Irrelevant again, auntie. 2 wrongs don't make one right, especially when comparing ordinary men to a prophet who is followed by many people for all time.

    Mass murderer: Muhammad did mass murder his "enemies" and his followers had/have followed his act through out history until this day and will keep doing that in the future.

    Loot = Muhammad was proven as a looter, any other emperors are irrelevant coz their time are finished. ME countries got their money too if they deal with the business and if they were smart enough they would become powerful countries like Russia, an independent nation. But hey, losers always blame others, right?

    Rape = Islam permits raping wives, captives and slaves while America doesn't. Why do you even use US alone? From your hatred? There are plenty kafir nations which have low crime rates, beside, you are talking to an Indian, not American, you silly.

    Slavery in Islam is undeniable. Arabs enslaved blacks and sold them to Europeans but at the same European descendants stopped the slavery, not the muslims. Bilal is irrelevant.

    Aisha = proven in hadith and Quranic sanction. "Could have been "is not a proof but assumption.

    Adultery = Islam, as you can see, permits all kind of raping and slavery, this is worse than adultery. At least, in adultery the consent is there. Wait a minute, how do you prove adultery in Islam, anyway?

    Let's see, when I'm looking around, I don't see it, but muslims in here love that and do that a lot.

    In the end, you didn't even clear Muhammad's name. You came here, you couldn't answer me and changed your target just to please your ego, worse of it, you are repeating your own refuted posts.

    I suggest you read FFI.org once in a while. Your queries about Islam, similar muslim's comments, European slavery, Aisha, pointing fingers to US/Israel/India/… (fill with any kafir), 2 wrongs make one right, evading topics etc are already there.

  467. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    With those accusations, aren’t you accusing a wrong person?

    Mass murderers = America in H and N cities not one? Corruptions and injustice in your and my countries and other 3rd world countries are not killing babies?… after they gained control over natural resources and peoples' taxes for their own prosperity?

    Assassinations = may be better charged to most politicians and ancient kings?

    Loot = look at the oil fields in ME countries… look through your own history and that of other emperors from the ancient times

    Rape = it is increasing in America

    Slave trade = who brought the Africans to America? Muslims? Read about Bilal please and how Rasulullah loved him. Umar bin Khattab even called this noble African man his leader.

    Pedophile = Aisyah could have been a older

    Lechery and adultery = why don’t you just look around? How about yourself? Your friends?

  468. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    Calling me like that makes you happy? 🙂

    It is all up to you but that's not the way I see it. Everyone can have his argument and different ways of expressing it. In order to understand Rasulullah, you need to consider different aspects as comparisons particularly that concerning leaders. I’m trying to make my points brief. But how can I debate with a person who is filled with hatred and so negating the fact that there are leaders who are ‘crueler’ in taking others’ lives.

    Two cities were bombed* yet you let the bombers be the peace keepers?
    What sort of humanity do you gentlemen have?

    Moreover, you should also read your Holy Book more carefully…. in every detail before judging Islam. It is possible now, isn’t it? Have you unconsciously missed any inhumanity?

    I don’t know what you are, but please……. do what I suggest you.

    *
    please use your brain to imagine this. Assuming the 9/11 attack were that of Muslims, could it even be compared to what happened to the two cities?

    Hasn’t anyone think that the residents of the two cities were probably those not agreeing to their country’s invasions?

    If you can call me nuts about my opinion about Rasulullah………then regarding your ignoring this highest record of mass killing, what should I call you then?

    Please think again…..

  469. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan
    Even if Muhammad spent most portion of his night praying, prostrating to Allah and reciting Quran verses, does this in any way clear him of the hideous crimes like mass murders, assassinations, loot, rape, slave trade, pedophilia, lechery, adultery etc that he perpetrated and instructed his followers to do?

    Are you oaky with Muhammad going on killing spree just because he was worshiping Allah and reciting Quran all the night? Does this behavior make him a saint leave alone a decent man?

  470. Sanada_10 says:

    Touche, I agree. She's a coward.

  471. Sanada_10 says:

    Dear, oh dear, oh dear. Why are you avoiding me, kid? What I mean was my logical analysis in indo site not your silly Islamic biography. Why do you keep misunderstanding me? If you keep reading that biased source with Islamic mindset, you'll understand nothing. Muhammad was not noble at all so keep your assumption. That's called pretending, or in believer's view, is analyzed as animal instinct, if you know what I mean. Come on, kid, stop seeing through your Islamic glasses, read my posts about that. You can't just cut in the middle and give unintelligent response.

    You still didn't answer my questions so don't start asking question yourself. Have you read the biography yourself? I know you haven't coz you'd avoided all my posts about that. I know, I know, even if I asked you to be honest you'd just deny it again, cherry pick my words and give this irrelevant answer.

    PS: Sina had read it and it's proven through his articles, books, and debates. How about you, speedy gonzales? So far, you got it all wrong, from Abu Bakr's words to "Charter" of Medina.

  472. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan

    When your prophet and Muslims are charged with hideous crimes against humanity, instead of answering our charges, you are just raising other issue and this only shows your fallacy and inability to face the truth. You have exposed you are a nuts.

  473. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Someone said that Rasulullah was anchored to this worldly life. Has she comprehensively read his biography? Has sina himself?

    I doubt it. If they have, then they must have been hiding the following fact for some reasons:

    Rasulullah was obviously a man who spent the least amount of time for sleep. Many narrations described that he spent most portion of every single night of his with Sholah (praying), Quran recitations, and prostrations to Allah as his way of being grateful to Him. Almost all of his companions were in the same practice. He conveyed that this custom had been a common practice amongst all prophets before him.

    The question is:

    Does a noble man of this custom match the above characteristic accused to him?

  474. Sanada_10 says:

    Quoting this verse will do you nothing and your answer is the one that laughable. There are plenty verse that show he is not a god. Circular logic again. auntie.

    People of course fear death, that's natural but not every people want to stay young. Why do you keep generalizing people here?

    It's never hard for any god to create anything (read: imagination). Put other gods into your silly statement and the result will be the same. As for Allah, he cannot create scientific fact, he only creates blunders.

    You still didn't answer my questions.

  475. Sanada_10 says:

    Wikipedia only gave sources that contradictory to each other. One says he didn't convert, the other says he "just accepted the Quran but decided to do it the other way". Read this.

  476. Sanada_10 says:

    everin,

    Ah, apakah anda berbicara tentang Miraj? Percumalah itu, bibi ini tak mau membahasnya.

  477. Sanada_10 says:

    On the contrary, it was Muhammad who deeply anchored into the worldly life. I've explained this but you didn't read it.

    Dismissing a falsehood doesn't mean that he is in love with this world, also when you look at the concept of heaven itself, it was born from the love that human has on this world. Care to think?

    Auntie, you wrote, "You’ve never been to hell so your comparison makes no sense at all."

    Wrong answer, kid. Hell is a general word and has negative connotation. You always assume your opponent. Boring, auntie.

    You wrote, "About the sects, they are not written in the Quran, they are narrated in some hadiths, which basically mean that we have to be really careful"

    Kid, enough with the double speak. Miraj also doesn't exist in Quran but you insist on it. Those sects are reality, kid. It's already happening.

    Sure, sure, god cannot be seen but he also can't be sensed either let alone proven. And when you look at the "creations" you will know that Allah is fake (I've explained this too and you didn't read).

    PS: All this time, this site has provided you with credible and authentic sources. Where is your own source? You just talk and generalize things.

  478. Sanada_10 says:

    Wah2, debat kusir nih, pada gak nyambung lagi dialognya, satu ngomong A yang satu B. Kebiasaan orang indo kalau mampet argumennya.

    Kata "berbahaya" itu cuma asumsi dan kepercayaan, lagian berbahaya bagi siapa? Ini semua cuma ilusi. Buktikan dulu baru ngomong, kusir kuda.

    Kebalik tuh, muslim is fooled by the fake god and this is proven but you didn't dare to discuss it.

  479. Sanada_10 says:

    Hey, fellas, fellas, this is english site, so there is no need for Malay or indo language. Also, stick to the topic, will you, kid coz you keep straying off the path here. Your posts are repetition and already answered in indo site.

    And for muslims who want to debate Sina, think again coz he had made it clear.

  480. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Anda menulis dalam bahasa Melayu. 🙂

    Saya yang justru kasihan kepada anda. Anda telah ditipu oleh diri sendiri. Hal ini justru lebih berbahaya.

    No, pity you. You are befooled by yourself. This sort of deception is far more difficult to detect. 🙂

  481. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Your answers are telling me that you have deeply fallen in love with this worldly life. I understand that as it is extremely hard to resist. The latest technology, fun and joys associated with it do blind most people.

    It is only compulsory for me to deliver the truth even if it is just a small piece of Islam that I know of. But the choice is all yours. You may want to live 'peacefully' with other infidels as long as you can. But I hope one day when you get old, weak and hardly have energy to enjoy life the way you do now, it won't be too late four you to learn the beauty of Islamic life. What Allah is telling us is not to hate this life, we can live it moderately. But He reminds those who believe that the true and eternal life does wait for them.

    It will be me who’s telling you to wake up. 🙂

    Sir, living in Islam doesn’t mean that you can’t live peacefully. If you really use your brain to see what man are like from the ancient times to this day, you’ll know for sure that peacefulness is nowhere else to find. It lies somewhere in your heart. Please do yourself a favor to find it. 🙂

    You’ve never been to hell so your comparison makes no sense at all. I’m surprised that you mention hell when you don’t believe in Heaven. For true Muslim women, it’s not their husbands who provide sustenance, it is Allah.

    About the sects, they are not written in the Quran, they are narrated in some hadiths, which basically mean that we have to be really careful.

    So, please learn about Islam from more credible sources. 🙂

    God can’t be seen, Sir. He can be sensed by observing all His creations, including ourselves.

  482. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Your ‘???’ question is laughable.

    Please read Albaqarah 255:

    “Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.”

    The verse should give answers to your questions. But let me guide you a bit.
    If it is never hard for Allah to create and preserve all of His creatures, would it be difficult for Him to reward each syuhada with 72 virgins? Would it be difficult for Him to resurrect all the dead?

    I once mentioned that this sex-related reward is only a part of His Grace in the hereafter. For more knowledgeable Muslims, what they hope for is His Forgiveness and the promised true and eternal salaam. This worldly life (along with all His blessings in it, including animals’ instinctive care for their offspring) is portrayed as a drop of water in the ocean when compared to the Hereafter.

    Have you not noticed people would do just anything to stay and look young that they don’t even mind plastic surgery in spite of its risks? They are scared of aging and try to go against their nature. Actually it is Allah’s Mercy that He doesn’t want man to fall in love with this temporary life as it will eventually vanish for everyone. 🙂

  483. everin says:

    Wikipedia says he was converted. Explain.

  484. Sanada_10 says:

    I mean the society, the law, the discrimination etc..

  485. Sanada_10 says:

    Kid, read the link, will you. Repetition is boring since the answer is there.

    Tsk, tsk, tsk at first you accused him for not being focused and now you said "eventually came to". Kid, he never talked to you remember? You can repeat this so called questions all the time but it's futile since this is just a repetition.

    I suggest you should buy a mirror before pointing your finger to someone else.

  486. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Sina

    You’ve released different articles each written to show your doubt in a particular issue of Rasulullah's life in accordance with the Holy Quran.

    In this male-female relationship, we eventually came to an exchange in which you said Rasulullah lusted Zainab. Proof?

    I’m sure we both read the very same sources of hadiths. So

    •Why did you negate the part that says Zaid had come several times to Rasulullah mentioning about divorce with Zainab to which Rasulullah kept saying no?

    •Are we in agreement that Zainab was related to Rasulullah by lineage so he must have seen her growing up?

    •Wasn’t it Rasulullah’s suggestion to Zaid to marry this relative of his in the first place?

    If you are as good as you claimed, why don’t you answer me those three questions?

  487. everin says:

    Saudi is out at the moment but Afghanistan n Iraq are in.

  488. Sanada_10 says:

    Don't forget Saudi, Iran and Pakistan.

  489. Sanada_10 says:

    I know that. Still he didn't convert and Bucaille's method was not scientific at all. That's why people who follow his method are called Bucaillists.

  490. everin says:

    If it become fully Islamic, it will step into the club of the doom, and join the ranks of Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen n other turmoil ME countries.

  491. Sanada_10 says:

    This so called water cycle is discussed, repeated and refuted many times, that's what I mean. Bucaille was a muslim? Where did you get that? May I know your source? Was he the one who started all of these pseudoscience and created Bucaillism?

  492. Sanada_10 says:

    Betul, betul, betul.

  493. everin says:

    If no clarification, many Muslims themselves n lay men will be cheated by this  Doctor of lies.  One French doctor, B. Maurice, was cheated n he became a Muslim because of this claim.  

  494. Sanada_10 says:

    Yo, kid ihsan. Answer my posts, will you? All your queries are answered in there but you refused to read. Ok, ok, if you don't want to read coz you don't have the gut, at least you can give relevant answer to anyone here once in a while. Answering "Taliban wants nuclear" with "who created nuclear" is not answering. Where did you get your education, anyway?

  495. Sanada_10 says:

    That's obvious, no need for clarification.

  496. Sanada_10 says:

    Somehow, Allah will restore his dik. You can die but the dik will rule forever.

  497. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, "Do I sound like I’m making excuses?"

    Kid, all this time you are only making excuses and general statement without touching the issue and become specific. You are running away from anything called Muhammad.

    Charter of Medina didn't reflect anything since Muhammad at that time was not the leader and he had no nation. He was just a moderator for other tribes. The true system came after he conquered Arabia, when he killed pagans, expelled Jews and persecuted Christians. Calling it a charter or constitution is misleading coz it's just a treaty.

    Polygyny in Islam allows men to divorce their wives easily and if men wants another wife through divorcing another, it can be done and no punishment or sin will follow. This men's advantages have been regulated in many verses but you didn't read.

    You are talking about humanity as if you know what humanity is. Tell me, what is humanity and why are you avoiding topics here?

    The Saudi society reflects Islamic society in the time of Muhammad. Nothing is wrong here.

    PS: No one is confusing muslim with Islam here, you are.

  498. Sanada_10 says:

    Wrong again. If indonesia becomes fully Islamic then this sorry nation will not tolerate other religions (such as Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism) and put the people of the book under heavy tax. Don't you read your own history? Islam persecutes minority, sucking their "blood" for Islamic expansion, imposing barbaric and one sided law etc. Take a look at Islamic nations, none of them are prosperous from past to present. My question still stays the same: Did Muhammad get rid of poverty? How did he get his money? Come on auntie, keep running from me.

  499. Sanada_10 says:

    Poor reply as usual.

  500. Sanada_10 says:

    Irrelevant. We are not doing the race here, we are attacking Islam coz it's still unchanged unlike others. Al Qaeda or Taliban wanted nuclear of course and that's just following Muhammad's order.

    Muhammad in the past used swords and what if an auntie from the market said, "Who created and used this sharp metal?". This doesn't answer anything..

  501. Sanada_10 says:

    Wrong dude, The end of Islam is near coz every one is criticizing Islam now. The end of the world is just faith. Can you prove it? Can you know it? No, you can't.

    Wrong again. Damaging plant is ok as long as it conforms the Islamic mission. Do you even read your own Quran about that? Whoever did create the weapon surely won't use it again but in muslim's hand it can be used for Islam. Killing with sword or other weapon is the same, it's called killing.

  502. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Do I sound like I’m making excuses?

    I admittedly said it’s been our communal mistakes in the past to leave the teachings of Islam. But it’s time for us to rise with it. I don’t feel too bad for what’s happening here. I believe that everyone will be questioned by Allah in accordance with their respective capacities. Leaders will be those with the longest lists of questions as Allah will charge them against their peoples. If a leader is unjust and leaves his peoples with hungers and poverty, I wonder how he could get away it. 🙂

    If your base your thoughts with sina’s articles, of course, you will think that what our men do is following the fundamental teachings of Islam. No, Sir we are not right now. We have been Muslims but we haven’t been that Islamic. We are still relearning. But if you don’t believe me, I suggest that you spend time on the history of the earliest generation of Islam so you can read it for yourself. You should also read about the Charter of Medina and learn something from it.

    None of the world’s religions originated here, so perhaps for now our people have more objective point of view. We’ve seen Buddhists, Hindus, and Christians and Confucius around us, see how they pray, and thus quite understand their differences from us. Maybe sina and you have some sort of unpleasing history with the Arabs that you said rather sarcastic about them? We don’t. But of course we also do not agree with the prevailing imperial system in Saudi.

    It is not the ethnic that counts. It is the teachings. So if you feel free and happy the way you see the world now, go on and enjoy yourself. I’ve been to countries with most advanced technologies and I’ve seen this ‘humanity’ in your society. No Sir, I’m not interested except maybe the technologies which I now believe belong to everyone. For us, sina, you and people like him in this so-called humanity are subconsciously trying to enjoy their lives forever.

  503. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    You didn't answer me. Who initiated the use of such highly explosive bomb to kill so many innocent people? The record in terms of number of innocent people killed is still unbroken.

    Please answer first.

  504. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan

    Don't you know Al Qaida and Pakistani Talibans are trying to gain control of nuclear weapons of Pakistan dubbed islamic bombs. If they unfortunately obtain atomic bombs they will never hesitate to use them on kafir countries.

    You said : He(Muhammad) would not even let anyone damage plants.

    Are you joking or you try to fools us. Your prophet is the source of all Islamic evils and terrorism. Your terrorist brothers are inspired by the terrorist acts of your demon prophet. If you are an ignorant moron, then go and get educated about the true history of Muhammad and Islam.

  505. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    Wrong, Sir. If you’d said the end of the world is near, then you would’ve been correct.

    Who said Muslims like to use nuclear weapons? It is definitely against the teachings from Rasulullah. He would not even let anyone damage plants. Leave alone nuclear weapon. Don’t you ever notice who initially used this highly destructive weapon to kill a mass of innocent people? Have you learnt a subject named history?

    Mecca and Medina are two of His holy cities. They will forever be in His Protection.

    Anyway, why are you sounding like you really love this worldly life? Are you planning to live forever?

  506. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    I told you that you were confusing Muslims with Islam just like we used to. Did you miss that part?

    You are still doing it now. 🙂

    No Sir, again you are so wrong to say what’s happening to us is because of Islam. On the contrary, it is our leaders who have been governing in a way which is far from that of Islam. They all have been unjust. Instead of leading, they have been colonizing us yet they name themselves Muslims. It is actually them who have made us poor whereas given our abundant natural resources, our peoples are supposed to be rich. Had our government been righteous, none of our women would have to go overseas to make a living. Had our government been Islamic, no destruction of other religion places of worships would be let happen.

    But in injustice, what do you expect?

    However, the blame is not all theirs. Most of us too have long been unconcerned about our religion. The practice of divorcing first wife after marrying a second is not of Islamic teachings. The real suggested practice of polygamy is that a husband has to equally support his wives’ living. Too it is said that if you can’t love an orphan, you can help it by marrying his/her mother.

    Sir, we just recently began relearning Islam. And frankly speaking, if you want to know true Muslims, don’t look at us…. at least not now. There available biographies of Rasulullah’s best companions. Just read them carefully. 🙂

  507. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    🙂

  508. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan

    End of Islam is very near. Muslims are given a chance to see the truth about Islam and its demon prophet Muhammad and shun Islam. If they lose this opportunity and continue to live with Islam, the next phase will start to unfold and they will have to suffer a lot and Islam will be obliterated completely with force. If Muslim terrorists use a nuclear weapon on any city in the world, both Mecca and Medina will(must) be nuked immediately in response to their misadventure.

  509. Sanada_10 says:

    Quote of the day by the auntie of the market, "To discuss this, leave alone Rasulullah. He was way too good if compared to today’s Islamic (and other’s) leaders."

    I know you didn't dare coz he was too incriminating. No kid, it's all about Muhammad and Islam. He was too violent compared to Indonesia and I've given you example of other good leaders which beat Muhammad on this context. You are a coward coz Sina's target is Muhammad from the very start.

    One more, keep your assumption about Muhammad coz no sane person takes it as evidence.

  510. Sanada_10 says:

    Err, your sentence is too cliche, I've read it too many times and it's just an ego satisfying words. It doesn't surprise me at all since muslims are the product of the same factory. Many had been assassinated by Muhammad the assassin. Irrelevant answer again auntie. Funny kid. Allah can't stand a chance against human invention named internet. What a god he is. Simple logic, what you can't see you can't touch. Allah the blind god never used evidence and argument to prove his so called existence, he used violence.

    Talking to this talking to that but you still didn't answer me at all. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also had been targeted for hundred years but Ahmadiyah still rising. Kid, how many times you post irrelevant things like this, beside non muslims is surely waking up now and realizing that Islam is not compatible with modern times.

  511. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “In the absence of Rasulullah, it was Abu Bakr who initiated the practice of dissent amongst the Ummah (of Rasulullah). His first speech after his appointment as the Ummah’s leader strongly portrayed his way of thinking towards leadership. You can read his redacted original speech, but in brief, he said that it was not compulsory for any Muslim to obey him if he disobeyed the laws of Allah. As simple as that…..brief, clear and full of commitment.”

    So, it was Abu Bakr not Muhammad, what’s the point here? He was better than Muhammad who hated free speech? And since Muhammad was dead at that time, his companions could do whatever they like.

    Ah, I just realize one thing. You don’t know what you are talking about. Kid, dissension means angry disagreement and in society’s context it can lead to rebellion which in fact happened at that time. Muhammad surely didn’t want this kind of dissension. What Abu Bakr meant here was not this “dissension” but dissension within Islamic rule coz he himself was not prophet so he didn’t dare to take the charge too highly. As long as this “dissension” didn’t against Islam it would be ok. So the point stays, Muhammad/Allah/Islam couldn’t tolerate dissension and if Abu Bakr created dissension the people must dissent to him. Got it, auntie?

    You wrote, “Put simply, when democracy upholds man-made by-majority laws in dissent, Islam teaches dissent while upholding the laws of Allah in the same time. In true Islam, a leader is supposed to be the servant of its people not the other way around. See the difference?”

    Islam didn’t teach dissension kid, it was your misunderstanding on Abu Bakr’s words. I challenge you to bring Quranic verse about it. Nope, in Islam the leader is the servant of Allah and so do the people. Together they work to make Islam conquer the world. Democracy gives right to minority, it doesn’t have fascist ideology while Islam persecutes minority and has fascist ideology. Islam created religion vs religion, group vs group, sect vs sect, etc for eternity. See the difference?

  512. Sanada_10 says:

    Kid, you still didn’t explain anything here, just a general statement and too many assumptions.

    You wrote, “Like I once said, many confuse today’s Muslims with true Islam. You are doing it now as well. I was too. Most fiqih-oriented Muslims have been doing so. And modestly, I see it acceptable since Muslims have lost their guided caliphates.”

    Muslims today are just the same with the past, the difference is their time. They are both worship Allah and Muhammad, want Islam to take over the world, and doing Islamic obligations. Losing caliphate is just the same with Muhammad‘s condition before he had power. There is no difference between them.

    You wrote, “You may despise any 3rd world country anyway you like. I am from Indonesia – admittedly it is one – but we now know why Indonesian Muslims have become what they are today. In here, the story about Islam's earliest caliphate system was not as extensively studied as it is now.”

    Err, auntie. Quote his words about “despising 3rd world country”. Do you even know what he’d meant? Indonesia become like this now is because their own culture from the age of “ignorance” and foreign influence. If Indonesia follows Islam it will become like Saudi or Iran minus the king or mullah, a barbaric country which have nothing else except Islam.

    You wrote, “Very least attention was paid to it like the story itself had been intentionally hidden for some political reasons.”

    Oh, it’s hidden to avoid Indonesia to become fully Islamic country where discrimination and killing of minorities prevails.

    You wrote, “The earliest Islamic way of ruling focused on the prosperity of the Ummah (Muslims as society) instead of making its leaders rich and richer.”

    Sure, sure, the Islamic rule makes the ummah richer by taking booty of war and tax on subjugated people. It also makes the leader even richer by allocating one fifth of the booty. The ummah grows but the leader doesn’t.

    Like I told you before that Muhammad didn’t erase poverty coz he couldn’t and didn’t want to, beside poor people is a tool in religion so their presence is needed in many occasion. He couldn’t invent new technology or way to make money he just went to war to get that.

    You wrote, “What’s happening worldwide now is practically the other way around. Most Islamic country leaders (if it’s too offensive to say all) are somewhat colonizing their own people”

    Err, it’s because the war is not possible and there are outnumbered by stronger non muslim forces. You should know that war is the only income Muhammad could think of.

    You wrote, “You are so wrong to have said that Islam does not promote dissent and free speeches. There available biographies of Rasulullah’s best companions (the shahabats) you can read and dig out something from. I suggest that you spend more time with them before making any hasty unfair judgment.”

    Talking is easy, proving is not. Sources is needed coz reality says differently. Quote the Quranic verse about that. Muhammad didn’t like dissent coz it could jeopardize his mission. No ruler wants dissension.

    You wrote, “After the era of Rasulullah, the shahabats were subsequently promoting free speeches amongst themselves when all other parts of the world were still tied to imperial systems under the utmost and hereditary powers of Kings. To discuss this, leave alone Rasulullah. He was way too good if compared to today’s Islamic (and other’s) leaders.”

    Dude, there is no free speech in Islam or Quran so once again I demand sources and analysis to know what’s the meaning of “free” here. Also, we are talking about Muhammad here not his companions who had done a strange act of compiling Quran which Muhammad never ordered it.

  513. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya Anand

    Where have you been? You already missed the train.

    Many had tried to eliminate Islam before sina did. The only difference is that sina is doing it safely behind his screen and thus looking like a pioneer in this global communication tool. 🙂

  514. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Like I once said, many confuse today’s Muslims with true Islam. You are doing it now as well. I was too. Most fiqih-oriented Muslims have been doing so. And modestly, I see it acceptable since Muslims have lost their guided caliphates.

    You may despise any 3rd world country anyway you like. I am from Indonesia – admittedly it is one – but we now know why Indonesian Muslims have become what they are today. In here, the story about Islam's earliest caliphate system was not as extensively studied as it is now. Very least attention was paid to it like the story itself had been intentionally hidden for some political reasons.
    But here’s what we’ve found out:

    The earliest Islamic way of ruling focused on the prosperity of the Ummah (Muslims as society) instead of making its leaders rich and richer. What’s happening worldwide now is practically the other way around. Most Islamic country leaders (if it’s too offensive to say all) are somewhat colonizing their own people. They’ve gained control over governing powers, the territory’s natural resources and taxes, just to use these wealth for themselves, their families and colonies. Until very recently, no detailed and sincere attention to the underprivileged has ever been paid.

    You are so wrong to have said that Islam does not promote dissent and free speeches. There available biographies of Rasulullah’s best companions (the shahabats) you can read and dig out something from. I suggest that you spend more time with them before making any hasty unfair judgment.

    After the era of Rasulullah, the shahabats were subsequently promoting free speeches amongst themselves when all other parts of the world were still tied to imperial systems under the utmost and hereditary powers of Kings. To discuss this, leave alone Rasulullah. He was way too good if compared to today’s Islamic (and other’s) leaders.

    In the absence of Rasulullah, it was Abu Bakr who initiated the practice of dissent amongst the Ummah (of Rasulullah). His first speech after his appointment as the Ummah’s leader strongly portrayed his way of thinking towards leadership. You can read his redacted original speech, but in brief, he said that it was not compulsory for any Muslim to obey him if he disobeyed the laws of Allah. As simple as that…..brief, clear and full of commitment.

    Put simply, when democracy upholds man-made by-majority laws in dissent, Islam teaches dissent while upholding the laws of Allah in the same time. In true Islam, a leader is supposed to be the servant of its people not the other way around. See the difference?

  515. Sanada_10 says:

    Oh, such a childish reaction.

  516. Sanada_10 says:

    Done reading, kid? I'll add another BS in Islam.

    This verse about hijab is very strange indeed. Allah as the all knowing god should reveal this verse from the very start, not waiting until some incidents involving his human slaves. Why is that? It’s because he claimed that hijab is the solution for adultery and adultery is as old as human, it existed even before Muhammad knew anything about monotheism which he got from certain hanif named Zaid bin `Amr bin Nufail. Was Allah learning something here, like in verses about alcohol? Or was it just Muhammad’s brain dealing with certain situation? What kind of god is this? This is complete BS.

    Allah was Muhammad’s lackey and Muhammad was Umar’s lackey. You should worship Umar instead.

    Bukhari 6.313:
    Narrated `Umar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Good and bad persons enter upon you, so I suggest that you order the mothers of the Believers (i.e. your wives) to observe veils." Then Allah revealed the Verses of Al−Hijab.

    Again, this is BS. Another BS can be found in Q 33:53. I know, I know, you are rather slow on understanding something, so, take it easy and read it carefully. You’ll find a clue there. I’ll give you just one, “perception”. Don’t start teaching anyone here until you find it.

  517. Sanada_10 says:

    Don't you ever learn logical deduction, kid?

  518. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “For your info, a faithful male Muslim never sees polygamy as a pleasure, but rather as a responsibility. If sex were his intention, there are prostitutes for money and abundant of female sex maniacs to have fun with. But that is a coward’s behavior. For faithful male Muslim, a set of responsibilities that come with another wife is more preferred.”

    For your info, Muslims use Islam and its “marriage” to satisfy their lusts. Muhammad made sexual slavery legal for this account so what’s the point of using prostitute? Do you even know how did prostitution become possible at that time? It’s the Islamic patriarchal system, kid.

    You forgot that sexual desire is just one of many desires and needs men have. Men want to be served in many things and obedient wives fulfill this desire. If you only use prostitutes you’ll only get limited time, no companionship, no emotional tie, no other services and in the end, you fulfilled only one desire not to mention the money waste.

    Muhammad had to unite:

    1. His ambition to conquer the earth
    2. His desire to be served and obeyed
    3. His need to be companied in the house
    4. His sexual desire
    5. His adventurous side

    In order to achieve that, he’d need Islamic marriage. Define “responsibility” and its last purpose here coz again and again, the standard is different. It’s depended on one perception only, a 7th century male one.

  519. Sanada_10 says:

    You wrote, “Assuming my guess about your criterion were correct, then how can you ask for a hermit’s advice about your married life when such a ‘holy man’ doesn’t even experience it’s complexities.”

    You know, kid. Lonelyloner is right about you. I’ll quote it, “It's just that you seem to assume to know things when all you have is blind faith”. You assume too much, kid. You position yourself as a teacher who wants to put your own perspective into other’s throat. Normally when you don’t know something for sure, you ask first to clarify. But in here, you just ram it like you know everything. You have only one … (sigh, I don’t need to mention this again and again).

    Marriage is a natural act to survive the society and species. This act itself is worldly so if you talked about “holy thingy” you should equate it with hereafter, unless your hereafter is just an earthly heaven. If you want to ask about marriage you don’ ask a “holy” person. You ask experienced worldly person and more importantly, ask to both genders so that the balance exists. If you ask just one gender or one man, you’ll get one perception and that won’t cover all problems on this vast earth, it only gives one sided “solution”.

    Muhammad’s experience of marriage is like a drop of water when compared to all marriage’s problems on this earth. Worse of it, he came from one background with one mindset and a limited time.

    You wrote, “How could you ever assess a priest’s virtue in regards to humanity when you can’t see how he raises a son or treats his wife?”

    At least the “holy” person won’t ask the husband to beat the wife or treating her as subordinate. They will teach golden rule coz their view is universal and universal teaching can be applied to many things. Your assumption is way too far here.

    You wrote, “Either one of them may look so ‘good’ the way they are, but it doesn’t guarantee that he will make a good father or husband. The two are practically running from their nature as human beings.”

    What is the meaning of “good” here? Islamic standard is different from the rest and I know the center point is “submitting to and conquering earth for Allah”. “Running from their nature” can mean many things. Prohibition of adultery and hijab can be included to “running from nature”. Don’t get trap with human perception and I’ve done this in indo site but you repeated it in here. It’s boring kid. Remember Mother Theresa? Go back there and answer my points.

    You wrote, “One’s being good in respect to sex is not by avoiding marriage. Instead, it can be seen by the way he lives his marriage life.”

    Ah, Muhammad’s POV. Marriage can/can’t be avoided depending on the situation. If someone chose not to get married you should let them. Why? Because it’s the part of balancing the nature, kid. Human lives and dies but earth keeps going. It won’t allow humans to do as they please and destroying it. From “spiritual” POV, it’s understandable since life is temporary and an illusion. This is not the case with Islam since Islam talks about world domination and Allah is called the inheritor.

    Being good in marriage is of course a decent thing to do but not using “marriage” in Islamic concept. “Marriage” in Islam is nothing more than a trade in order to achieve Muhammad's mission. Be specific, kid coz saying “marriage” alone doesn’t explain anything.

    You wrote, “But if you have a little empathy for those who lost one of their parents during their childhood especially those losing their fathers, chances are you will have a different angle.”

    Again, Muhammad’s POV is too strong here. Those orphans can be adopted and made independent to choose their own path coz using only “marriage” is just an excuse and there are plenty articles explain this which you don’t read. Liberty is human nature. Monogamy is also balancing human nature between 2 people. Polygamy is unhealthy and oppresses one side.

  520. Sanada_10 says:

    Bumping this, bumping that, happy bumping everyone.

    You wrote, “On the other hand, I am proud to see both my religion and its prophet are widely discussed”

    Oh, of course it’s widely discussed, just like AIDS, right? It means that this site is famous already. Dude, Islam is fairly new to the westerners so it is a common sense to discuss it not to mention the terror and the barbaric law. The bigger the danger, the bigger the chance to be discussed.

    You wrote, “If no one bothers to talk about his sunnah, then what is the point of having a role model? There is nothing wrong with questioning and pre-analyzing before one believes him”

    What you have done is not analysis but believing in him without reason. Of course there is nothing wrong on questioning his claim, just like pagans and we did/do. The problem is: did Muhammad ever attempt to answer it with proof? Did you even attempt to prove it? So far, you didn’t bring anything concrete.

    You wrote, “Umar bin Khattab did that for years before becoming one of his best companions”

    Like I told you before but you didn’t read. His earlier companions and followers were drawn with carrot. What carrot? I’ve explained it. There is no “analyzing” activity in their brain.

    You wrote, “From what I learned, Rasulullah himself would smile and pray for those talking bad about him if he were still around. You can see this in many of his hadiths”

    Source and explanation needed. From what I learned from Quran, Muhammad couldn’t control his emotion.

    You wrote, “don’t know precisely what you mean by a man living up to the highest standard of finest human qualities”

    Simple dude. It’s the human who put the golden rule above all else. In this way you’ll understand other people even animal. Muhammad was not coz he’s locked in his own time.

    You wrote, “Is it someone who lives his life as an ascetic that meets this criterion? Or a priest who prefers to be not married in order for him to serve his God?”

    If they can achieve the golden rule by doing that then be my guest.

    You wrote, “Rasulullah is supposed to be someone whom we see as a role model of mankind. A role model in all aspects of humanity. He is human by any definition. The difference is that he was guided by Allah with revelation.”

    Too many assumptions, kid. You just created a gapping hole here for not proving his superior morality or quality. This was coming from his own mouth and of course every people naturally praise themselves. Nope, according to his lackey named Allah, he was chosen because he had sublime moral so he was “super” human by Islamic definition.

    You wrote, “This particular article is about relation between male and female. So…”

    Everyone knows that including Sina, you know.

  521. Arya Anand says:

    Muslims are humans turned into beasts like their prophet and they understand only the language of beasts. We will come out in the open once we have gained adequate power to confront you subhuman monsters. Islam was born of and grown up and is surviving with violence and so it will die a violent death. This is my personal opinion.

    Not only one Ali Sina but thousands of leaders like Ali will arise to put an end to Islam. Ali Sina is the pioneer in this mission.

  522. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Arya anand

    You may want to appoint sina as the leader of such strong force. Let us see how good he commands you from his screen.

  523. Arya Anand says:

    @ Abdullah ihsan
    If your Allah is the creator of everything, then who created Allah? Did he create himself before he was nothing and then started creating everything out of nothing? You tell me how did your Allah came into existence in first place.

  524. Sanada_10 says:

    Read this, it's long.

    About hijab, it's confusing since:

    Bukhari 1.148:
    Narrated `Aisha: The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al−Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqi` at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. `Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam`a the wife of the Prophet went out at `Isha' time and she was a tall lady. `Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al−Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al−Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

    Why did you talk about blood circulation again? I've done that many times and mind you that other gods are valid too if you put them into your silly statements. Don't forget kid, we are testing Allah here and he failed. Borrowing from loner's words, I can see that Islam is BS, its concept, its knowledge, its mindset, its morality, its so called science, its method, its reaction, its emotion, its human perception, etc are all BS. Tell me, why should I follow an obvious BS stuff like this?

  525. Sanada_10 says:

    Devil incarnate would be too good for him since at least the devil knows his own surrounding.

  526. Sanada_10 says:

    No, this auntie doesn’t. She’s just a lay”auntie” of the market. Man, can’t you differentiate who’s knowledgeable and who’s not?

  527. Sanada_10 says:

    Shot your own foot again, auntie. The clue is located in probir's post. Got something, auntie? Of course it's his own article but did you even read anything here to see the picture? Come one, auntie, it's simple and yet you failed to see the problem again. Here I am correcting your mistake again.

    You are no scholar and you had seen what happened to Marwan, right?

  528. Sanada_10 says:

    I see you are avoiding me again auntie. What’s the matter, kid?

    You wrote, “Ha ha, I think that's the end of our debate”

    Running away before answering the question, kid? Don’t worry I’ve seen that too many. Remember your own habit, kid?

    You wrote, “If you are referring specifically to suicide bombing, of course, such an act was never taught in Islam even among its earliest generation, period. The Japanese did that with the so-called kamikaze attacks. But who promoted it for the first time, I’m sorry I have no idea.”

    See? There are too many assumptions in your part. There are many meanings in his posts such as “die for the sake of allah” or “violence in Islam” or “killing disbeliever”. Such an act was taught in Islam. What was taught? It’s the concept of killing the enemy while sacrificing your own self. I’ve done this too in indo site and you just wouldn’t read it. The difference here is the method but the concept stays the same, it’s to die in allah’s cause while killing your enemies. What would happen if muslims killed himself for personal matter? Of course Muhammad wouldn’t allow that coz it’s against Islamic missions. It depends on what purpose is on the line. With one man you can kill 100 men, familiar with that?

    Such a method was never taught because the bomb was not invented at that time, kid. You are so clueless, aren’t you? Do you want muslims to use traditional swords and camels all the time kid? Even Muhammad would use it if he lived in present days.

    Who’s promoting it? It’s Muhammad, dude. He instructed his followers to self destruct for the sake of allah and gave them paradise for that.

    You wrote, “Chaos in any nation has a lot to do with the rulers regardless of his religion”

    In the context of Islamic nations, chaos is pretty much caused by religion which hates another.

    You wrote, “You should read the biographies of Islamic earliest caliphates so you have a better understanding of Islam.”

    Err, and that’s coming from a kid who run from discussion in indo site?

    You wrote, “If you are referring more globally to civil wars within a nation, again, I am sorry I don’t know who promoted it a long time ago.”

    He’s referring to religious violence Islamic nations, kid.

    You wrote, “If you are referring to civil wars in more recent nations, is it:”

    Read his words, “with the bombs n in the many ME countries”.

    You wrote, “The Americans with its civil wars? The Irish? The Vietnamese? the Koreans?”

    Irrelevant again, kid. Those civil wars were not religious so it will stop but if you put religion in it, you’ll be fighting forever like in ME countries.

  529. Sanada_10 says:

    Your post is irrelevant again and again as usual. Please, don’t keep bringing your silly pride and emotion here. Where are we right now? Oh, here:

    P: Where is the proof that this god of yours is real, I want to talk to him.
    M: No, you can’t. It’s only me who can talk to his, err, angel, not god himself actually.
    P: Hah? So you never actually talk to this god?
    M: Err, yes, technically, but I talked to the angel! That’s enough!
    P: So, even if I believed you that wouldn’t make you talk to this god, right?
    M: Eh, ehm, that’s true but you have to believe my words! I am god messenger!
    P: Dude, technically, the messenger is that angel and you are the angel’s messenger, if he is an angel after all.
    M: How dare you! I am god messenger! I don’t take protest and I don’t need to prove it! Also, that angel is really an angel!
    P: How do you know?
    M: Grrr, I just know it!
    P: That won’t convince anyone except you.
    M: Do you not fear hell?
    P: Hell? First, you have to prove that this god is real, second you have to prove that hell is real.
    M: He’s real because I say so!
    P: Are you ok? Everyone could be prophet if they acted like you. Let me take you to the nearest psychiatrist maybe he can diagnose what you had experienced.
    M: Hey! I am not crazy!
    P: How do you know?
    M: God’s told me!
    P: You mean the angel?
    M: Err, yes, err, no! God’s told me!
    P: Dude, if every patient declared their own sanity then there would be no patient at all.
    M: You unclean disbeliever! Hell awaits you!
    P: You are getting worse maybe you should take a few medicines. Your temper is bad.
    M: So you don’t believe me?
    P: No until I see some proof, there are many cons in here, you know.
    M: I’m real!!!
    P: Says you and so do many cons out there.
    M: Grr, this god came to others too! That’s proof!
    P: Err, dude, that has nothing to do with this, hasn’t it? How do you know that this god came to others too? Are you sure it was the same god?
    M: I just know it! It’s true!
    P: Sigh, why are you repeating this? I ask for proof not this.
    M: Grr, you want to play questions, don’t you? Fine, who made you?
    P: Excuse me, dude. I want answer not question. That’s nothing to do with my question again.
    M: Who cares about your question! Answer me, who made you?
    P: Dude, you are so childish. Look, the one who “made” me is surely not perfect. The entire universe is not perfect, it is chaotic. Whatever “the entity” is, it is not like what you think it is. Now, prove to me that this “entity” is the god of yours coz your god doesn’t even know his own creation.
    M: He’s told me that! He’s real!
    P: He is as “real” as any other gods unless you can make the difference. Let’s put other gods into your question and try to answer it.
    M: Grrr, other gods are fake, they didn’t make me!
    P: Says who, the angel?
    M: Err, yes, err, no! God’s told me so!
    P: So, it is the angel then.
    M: It’s god!
    P: Err, let’s stop this childish act and back to my first question.
    M: Who cares about your question!!!
    P: That means you can’t answer it, kiddo.
    M: Grr, you will be in hell! I assure you this because you refuse and wound me!
    P: Sometimes, I wonder who the god really is. Is it you or him?
    M: Grr, time for the sword!
    P: Help me! There is a murderer here!

    … based on true story …

  530. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ sina

    You said that you wanted to have a debate with a scholar. How can you debate a scholar if you can't even focus on your writing. Should I remind you? This is your own article, and it's about male-female relationship.

    ?

    I'm no scholar at all, but can you please answer my three questions?

  531. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ everin

    Hi

    1. If you are referring specifically to suicide bombing, of course, such an act was never taught in Islam even among its earliest generation, period. The Japanese did that with the so-called kamikaze attacks. But who promoted it for the first time, I’m sorry I have no idea.

    FY Additional I, Rasulullah set policies that no one under the age of fifteen was allowed to be a soldier.

    Chaos in any nation has a lot to do with the rulers regardless of his religion. The very basic Islamic standard of a ruler (leader) is that he has to be just to his peoples. That’s all. Islam loves peace of course but Islam loves justice more. I hope you are not too stupid to know that not every one likes justice. You should read the biographies of Islamic earliest caliphates so you have a better understanding of Islam. 🙂

    2. If you are referring more globally to civil wars within a nation, again, I am sorry I don’t know who promoted it a long time ago.

    Is it:

    The ancient Rome? The ancient Greece? The ancient Chinese? The ancient Indians? The ancient Jews? The ancient Indonesian Hindus Emperors?

    Who? Can you give me a clue?

    3. If you are referring to civil wars in more recent nations, is it:

    The Americans with its civil wars? The Irish? The Vietnamese? the Koreans?

    Who? Please give me a clue. 🙂

  532. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Irsaad

    Thanks brother. Actually I don't. I am sure there are many people who understand Islam more than I do, but they just don't want to waste their time exchanging ideas with a man like sina.

    I am here to share the beauty of Islam with those who are seeing Islam falsely the way sina is. 🙂

  533. Dina says:

    Howmuch i loathe muhamad. If at all muhamad had not taken birth, the would have been free from crores of satanic followers. He is devil incarnate.

  534. Irshaad says:

    @Abdullah ihsan
    Well said brother Abdullah…… you have quite a deep understanding of Islam which I have seen not many have…. 🙂

  535. Arya Anand says:

    There should arise strong political force at global level to end Islam once and for all. Without such a force it is not possible to destroy Islam from the face of the earth.

  536. Ali Sina says:

    I too believe that Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah.

    I also believe he was the first messenger of Allah. He was the only messenger of that demon. I am going to put an end to that devil deity so there would be no more messengers from him.

  537. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyrider

    I have mentioned in the other article that I don't have to put no cover when Rasulullah's marriages were put across. On the other hand, I am proud to see both my religion and its prophet are widely discussed. If no one bothers to talk about his sunnah, then what is the point of having a role model? There is nothing wrong with questioning and pre-analyzing before one believes him. Umar bin Khattab did that for years before becoming one of his best companions. From what I learned, Rasulullah himself would smile and pray for those talking bad about him if he were still around. You can see this in many of his hadiths.

    I don’t know precisely what you mean by a man living up to the highest standard of finest human qualities. I don’t know how you picture a man of that kind. Is it someone who lives his life as an ascetic that meets this criterion? Or a priest who prefers to be not married in order for him to serve his God?

    Rasulullah is supposed to be someone whom we see as a role model of mankind. A role model in all aspects of humanity. He is human by any definition. The difference is that he was guided by Allah with revelation.

    This particular article is about relation between male and female. So….

    Assuming my guess about your criterion were correct, then how can you ask for a hermit’s advice about your married life when such a ‘holy man’ doesn’t even experience it’s complexities. How could you ever assess a priest’s virtue in regards to humanity when you can’t see how he raises a son or treats his wife? Either one of them may look so ‘good’ the way they are, but it doesn’t guarantee that he will make a good father or husband. The two are practically running from their nature as human beings.

    One’s being good in respect to sex is not by avoiding marriage. Instead, it can be seen by the way he lives his marriage life.

    You mentioned that you have so much respect for monogamy as you’ve seen it work for your parents. In that case, you are lucky. I assume nothing bad happened to any of your parents that you’ve had the chance to grow up happily. But if you have a little empathy for those who lost one of their parents during their childhood especially those losing their fathers, chances are you will have a different angle.

    For your info, a faithful male Muslim never sees polygamy as a pleasure, but rather as a responsibility. If sex were his intention, there are prostitutes for money and abundant of female sex maniacs to have fun with. But that is a coward’s behavior. For faithful male Muslim, a set of responsibilities that come with another wife is more preferred. 🙂

  538. Lonelyloner says:

    about this:

    3. Why is this lust thing always attributed to Rasulullah when sina must have learnt that his recent neighbors see satisfying lust as blameless daily practices?

    Lust is human. Sating one's lust is human too, as in… average human.
    But when one person is supposed to be as special as the very last prophet of God, and as the best of humanity ever was, then the bar is set to the highest. Then people would have to see whether or not Muhammad really live up to that highest standard of finest human qualities… , or whether he's just on the same level as an average lustful man.

    It's good thing that you at least don't mind talking about him ^^. Learning about Islam means learning about Muhammad. Real learning should not come from coercion, but from unhindered study and query (and of course, criticism) after all.
    It seems you have decided that Muhammad's the example to follow? Well I have not. But over time I should know more, and perhaps change my mind? ^^ Who knows?

    (I half expect you'd say… Allah knows though, haha)

    Peace.

  539. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ lonelyrider

    Ha ha, I think that's the end of our debate.

    Please note that in this particular article, my emphasis was to argue sina's accusation to Rasulullah when he negated some parts of the history about Zainab. I questioned him why he did that knowing that he claimed to be very familiar with the Islamic hadiths. It was simply unfair for those with only little knowledge about the story of Rasulullah's marriages. Despite your confession of being atheist, the questions remain for other visitors to read:

    1. Why is he hiding the fact about heejab in Islam? that a true and good Muslim is not likely to date.

    2. Why did sina hide the fact that Zaid had come to Rasulullah several times mentioning his divorce with Zainab to which Rasulullah said No?

    3. Why is this lust thing always attributed to Rasulullah when sina must have learnt that his recent neighbors see satisfying lust as blameless daily practices?

    Yes, Sir. It's true. I believe 100% that Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah, the Almighty and the only Creator of every thing. If he were not then who would be? When you question about it….. I can say that it's a good start. A lot of discoveries started with questioning i.e in science. The prophet Ibrahim (AS) found Allah by questioning at the onset whether or not one of those celestial bodies was his God (QS). But Allah's guidance led him to learning that there are the unseen created by the unseen God (Allah).

    When I realize my blood circulates in me without me telling it to, it's enough to say that there is God who has control over everything whereas humans obviously don't.

  540. Lonelyloner says:

    No, I don't enjoy talk games. It's just that you seem to assume to know things when all you have is blind faith.


    What you have is merely what you believe my reply would be. So here's the corrected piece of exchange:

    Abdullah's healthy thought (AHT): "Hmm, when did I design my body?"

    What Abdullah believe as atheist thought (WABAAT): "Oh yes, I remember designing it when I was nothing at all. I looked around and saw available materials to build up my self with."

    Loner's thought (LT): "No. I do not design my body. Other than some tattoos and a hair cut, I don't recall ever designing myself."

    AHT: " Yeah, but who created those available materials?"

    WABAAT : " You don't get it?! I created them before I was nothing."

    LT: "Wrong. I do not know who created those available materials that made up my body."

    (optional) AHT: "What do you know then?"
    (optional) LT: "I know that I don't know."
    (optional) LT: "And I know BS when I see it too."

    ^^ What is atheism then?
    Atheism is merely lack of faith in god. That's it, no more no less.

    My religion does not matter. By definition of atheism, I am an atheist. I lack belief that there's a god running the show. There may be a god, or there may not be. But to me lack of proof of any god's effectiveness is for now enough to say that any belief in a god is BS.
    But there are harmless BS, and there are dangerous BS, but that's a topic everyone else here would have discussed already.


    Oh I'm not here to talk about religion. All I did was point out that what you said about Allah telling Muhammad to marry Zainab, is not factual. It's merely a belief. It makes sense only if you totally believe in Muhammad. If you don't, then there is no islam.

  541. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ frankestein

    Hold on first. Am I also talking to an atheist or to a believer of a certain religion? What is your base for that short sentence of yours?

    I am a Muslim, and may I know you are……….? Please don't say you are just another coward hiding behind an atheist confession 🙂

  542. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyrider

    You seem to enjoy that question and answer play. Why don't you try to have such play on your being atheist.

    perhaps, you may start with:

    Your healthy thought (HT): "Hmm, when did I design my body?"

    Your atheist thought (AT): "Oh yes, I remember designing it when I was nothing at all. I looked around and saw available materials to build up my self with."

    HT: " Yeah, but who created those available materials?"

    AT : " You don't get it?! I created them before I was nothing."

    the rest of it….. you can continue with your own words. I can't use the word 'before' too many times 🙂

    I'm sorry pal, that's the best you can get when you are hiding your religion behind the atheist confession or yours. If you believe in any religion, let's talk about it like you talk about mine.

  543. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ frankestein

    Isn't it the other way around, Sir? Isn't it that it is sina who has hate so much in our beloved Rasulullah? You have no other argument strong enough to keep you from using bad term?

    🙂

  544. Sanada_10 says:

    That optional part is so real in Islam in many ways.

    M: You disbelieve it? Then suffer and die, for this is the punishment from god!
    P: Err, dude, it is you who will punish me, not god. Can’t god do this himself?
    M: Silence! This is god and not me! There, a voice comes at me! Ugh, the pressure!
    P: Err, dude, I hear nothing but your angry, deluded voice. Are you ok? Your face doesn’t look so good. I have some herbs if you like.
    M: Silence! Believe me or not? If not then I’ll attack you until you believe!
    P: Heeellppp mmeeee…!

    … based on true story …

    You wrote, "Because God A had sent other prophets like Moses and Jesus, that's proof enough that God A is real."

    Err, typical circular reasoning and diversion ala Muhammad. The questions would be endless if this auntie kept answering it like this. “How do you know that god come to Moses?” or “How do you know that this was the same god?” or “How do you know that Moses was real”. In the end, there are so many unanswered “how” in it.

  545. Sanada_10 says:

    See auntie? You always go berserk and post irrelevant things like that and when corrected you always deny it and worse of it, you run in the end. Everyone agrees with me including lonelyloner and for your information, no, I don’t know lonelyloner in case you accuse me of something silly just like before. Oh, sure, sure, deny all you want, say no till the cow comes home but no one can see his/her own face. Others can, so denying is useless unless you are a narcissist who needs … (fill it yourself).

    You see kid, rational and logical people do something with reason and information not some god’s threat which came from the mouth of a mortal who has the capacity to lie. Do good thing because it’s good not because god gives you a carrot, avoid bad thing because it’s bad not because god threaten you with heavenly yet worldly stick. You are still in the phase of “animal reasoning” if you are like that. Your mind needs to evolve kid.

  546. frank says:

    besides you moron you need to get your facts straight first lol

  547. frank says:

    wow this sina guy must have something up his a** for hating so much

  548. Sanada_10 says:

    Hey lonelyloner, you are bumping this auntie according to this auntie.

  549. Lonelyloner says:

    Yes, that one-to-one-marriage is not an original concept of mine.
    There had been cultures or religions that promoted it. A major factor is having seen for myself that faithful monogamy works (my parents ^^), and deciding for myself that scandalous life is more headache I don't need.
    Anyway I have made it mine, because I decided (with respect to my mostly free sexed friends) that faithful monogamy is what I'm comfortable with.
    Has nothing to do with what is sinful or not. And it's out of my free will and informed decision, NOT out of religious coercion like threats of stonings.

    Anyway, here's my base argument:

    Lack of proof that Allah indeed told Muhammad to marry Zainab.
    All we have to go about it is Muhammad's own word about it, since he alone could communicate with Allah at that time. No one else were able to verify his claim with Allah him/herself.

    Ok, here's a picture of the problem:

    Person B does something.

    Person C asks Person B "Why do you do that?"

    Person B answers "Because God A told me to."

    Person C says, "No, I don't easily believe that. I want to clarify with God A directly about this. Let me talk to God A."

    Person B replies, "No, God A talks only to and through me."

    Person C: "Then how do I know God A really told you to do what you do?"

    Person B: "You just have to take my word on it."

    Person C: "How do I know you're not just BSing? What's the proof that God A even exist?"

    Person B: "Because God A had sent other prophets like Moses and Jesus, that's proof enough that God A is real."

    Person C: "Ok, irrelevant point taken and set aside.
    The issue here is not about whether we're talking about the same god, that god of Moses and Jesus and is same as God A.
    Back to the question: so what's the proof that God A really told you to do what you do.

    Person B: "You just have to take my word on it."

    Person C: "I don't buy that."

    Person B: "So you disbelieve?"

    Person C: "What's there to believe? I can't tell for certain if you're BS-ing or not. Since God A nor you do not allow me to clarify directly. So to me you are BS-ing."

    (optional) Person B: "Death to disbeliever!!"
    (optional) Person C: "Ok ok, I believe!" ^^

    You may ignore the (optional) part, just a joke.

    Anyway see the problem here?

  550. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Hi Lonelyloner

    Ha ha, I didn't go berserk. What should I? Well, that is probably the disadvantage of written communication through which our voice tones cannot be heard. The all capital letters are meant to highlight the fact that what you people call 'modern societies in humanity' are daily engaged in lust without being married (just like animals) yet none of you say a word about it. 🙂

    I used the '!' to wake you up and see that fact just in case you haven’t been aware of it.

    No, pal. I didn't assume you are a free sex man/woman. It's good if you're not. I am just asking….. having learnt that you are unjustly attributing lust to only our Prophet when you see people around you enjoy lust more than a good Muslim could imagine.

    You said:
    “Uhm… I'm an atheist.
    Anyway, why assume I prefer free sex? No man. I prefer a good family life. One husband, one wife, faithful marriage and happy healthy children. And this is all my personal choice, not because of some god's teachings.”

    I hope you are honest with that atheist confession. That means you deny the fact that you were created and you can recall producing all parts of your body and assembling them by your self. Later, you created all other materials to fulfill your body’s needs.

    Despite your atheism, who told you that such one-to-one pattern is a good way of marriage? Whether you are aware or not, you’ve learnt this practice from some culture. The question is:

    Who initially taught people in such culture? Have you traced it? Was it religion-based?

    You asked:
    “As far as I know, the only human being to have ever interacted with Allah is Muhammad himself.
    How can we be certain that Allah is not merely Muhammad's imagination?”

    I’m sorry to say, but your question shows your superficial knowledge about Islam. The Quran says that there had been Allah’s messengers before Muhammad. Some Islamic scholars even narrated that there were thousands of them and not all of their names were recorded. Some of the messengers were said to communicate with Allah. Moses and Jesus were two of them and were also reported to communicate with Him. Muhammad was His last messenger and of course he received His messages to mankind through the Quran.

    So what is your base for your argument?

  551. Lonelyloner says:

    Uhm… I'm an atheist.
    Anyway, why assume I prefer free sex? No man. I prefer a good family life. One husband, one wife, faithful marriage and happy healthy children. And this is all my personal choice, not because of some god's teachings.

    Anyway, what I am is out of topic. You're a riot, haha.
    Just because I said Muhammad's claims as questionable, you immediately go berserk and assume I'm the worst animal there is. ^^
    So here's your question back: what happened to your fair judgement? (if there was any…)
    You went totally freaked out by one simple question. Wouldn't it make sense to you if perhaps you have an issue about this after all? Or you'd rather just keep denying it?

    And my question again:
    As far as I know, the only human being to have ever interacted with Allah is Muhammad himself.
    How can we be certain that Allah is not merely Muhammad's imagination?

    Will you answer? Or will you go berserk again?

  552. Abdullah ihsan says:

    @ Lonelyloner

    Too bad I don't know your religion so I can't ask you similar questions related to 'eye witness' in it to show you how precipitant and shallow your question is. But that's alright. Yours is yours and Islam is mine.

    Lust has always been something that you people use to attack Rasulullah's marriages. You keep using this seemingly improper word but you guys forget that it's very human to have sexual need. Islam teaches the norms under which such need should be fulfilled. Through marriage for which Rasulullah has taught us well.

    You are not saying that you prefer free sex, are you? Wake up! Look around you and see how those so-called modern teenage girls and ladies are DAILY INVOLVED IN LUST through their habits in practicing free sex. EVERY DAY, and they don't give a damn about being married. Yet, you people call this humanity, Free Will. You even blindly considered it as a way of expressing love. What’s happened to your fair judgment, pal?

    Of course you will stand up for your opinion however you can. But for true and good Muslims, that free sex behavior imitates that of animals. Animals don't have logic and that's why they need no marriage to have some offspring. But man? And you still think this free sex behavior as better than Islamic marriage?

  553. Lonelyloner says:

    Are there any other eye-witness of Allah's ordering Rasulullah to marry Zainab?
    Or was it always Muhammad's own claims and no other?
    Is Allah even real?
    Isn't it more plausible that Allah is only Muhammad's creation and his tool to justify his rule and his laws and his lusts too?

  554. Abdullah ihsan says:

    An assumption about Rasulullah lusting Zainab is groundless.

    If sina takes the whole story as authentic, then why did he negate the part that says Zaid had mentioned a divorce with Zainab several times to Rasulullah before he finally divorced her? And how Rasulullah had accordingly advised him not to do that every time he visited him for such complain.

    Zainab was pretty much related to Rasulullah by lineage so he had been closer to her than Zaid was to her. He saw her growing up. He could had married her in the first place if he had wanted to. But it was Rasulullah himself who asked Zaid to marry Zainab. Their marriage didn't work simply because Zainab had always looked at him as a liberated slave. Then after the divorce, Allah ordered Rasulullah to marry Zainab to eliminate the supposition amongst Muslims then that a foster son deserved the same rights as that of a biological son. The message was and proves to be highly acceptable given that a foster son has no cognation with his fostering father.

    Some scholars have narrated that it even took a while before Rasulullah communicated this verse about his marriage to Zainab as he was concerned about how Muslims would think about him marrying his son's ex wife. But Allah further confirmed that His laws should rule, and not man's.

    So does anyone see any lusting here?

  555. Ali Sina says:

    Everything you said is more or less true except Muhammad did not kill his step son to marry his wife. Zeid was not a step son but a foster son who divorced his wife Zeinab after learning Muhammad lusted her so he could marry her.

  556. probir says:

    Tina,
    You don't have any idea about the Muslims. they are the worse people in the world. Their Prophet first marry a women who was at the age of his mother at that time only together money.and at his age of 60 he marry a girl of only 6 years old. Using trick he killed one of his step son, just to marry his widow, and he enjoyed more than 14 legal wife,and besides he enjoyed lot of slaves and war defeated woman. Actually Islam in now respect could be a religion, is a Tim of sexual rubbers
    Probir

  557. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Sina's claim to deeply know Islam has proven to be a big lie.

    If he ever were, then instead of judging the 'muslim boyfriend's intention to do this and that to Tina, he would have opined that true Muslims are not likely to break the heejab. Even now in Indonesia the process of ta'aruf-hitbah-nikah (acquaintance/introduction by Islamic adviser/parents-proposing-marriage process) is becoming more and more popular to prevent free male-female relationship among young Muslims. And only those still under the heavy influence of modern cultures would pay no attention to this process.

    So we hope Tina and her likes don't confuse Muslims with Islam like Sina does.

  558. Abdullah ihsan says:

    Why anyone even bother this article?

    Miss Tina,

    In your situation, a simple test to know whether or not a man is a good Muslim is quite simple. Good and true Muslims don't date. A male Muslims is not supposed to have a girlfriend and vice versa. There is this term called heejab in Islam by which a male and a female above the age of puberty are not allowed to be together alone in any condition unless they are siblings or relatives or accompanied by a third party who is at least the female's relative. For some stricter Muslims, a phone conversation between two unrelated male and female is not even allowed when such conversation may lead them to having feelings for each other. That's actually how Muslims are supposed to live up to this heejab.

    Read Islam a little more then you can judge his approach to you by your self. It is your own decision on whether or not you feel comfortable with this heejab. I assume that your boy friend is not and that's why he ignores that very basic Islamic rule in male-female relationship. That's what makes him a disobedient Muslim. By dating you in the first place, he is absolutely wrong.

    So, read more about Islam. carefully. Ask a reputable Islamic scholar in any mosque you can find.

    I was expecting that sina would explain something about this heejab since he claimed to know Islam more than anyone else. But what happened with his knowledge on this particular issue?

  559. Lonelyloner says:

    As said by Dr. Sina above:

    "He says he loves you because probably he does. Muslims are humans with feelings too. The problem is that their cult takes precedence over everything else including their humanity."

    In fact, it's not just hard core muslims, any one who lives like that is pretty XXXcked up.
    Dr.Sina is not a muslim hater, he merely highlights truth as it is, and sometimes it is ugly indeed.
    This exchange is best advise for Tina and for us all.

  560. Arya Anand says:

    It's really a good advice.

  561. Barry4u says:

    [youtube BgQdZgojOFI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQdZgojOFI youtube]

    Tina, you're an unlucky girl to have fallen in love with a hardcore Muslim man ..Any muslim who claims he loves a religion as horrifying as Islam but Doesn't really want you to convert for him, is lying on your face..[youtube FKs7oi_-NUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo youtube]

  562. John K says:

    Really good article. It's a good example that it's not just what we know, but finding new and creative ways of expressing it so that it is helpful to those who need it.

  563. Tempest says:

    FYI: Regarding my first post. I realize I have some erroneous opinions in there. I accidentally submitted it before I had a chance to edit it. Sorry for that and ignore them. 🙂

  564. Tempest says:

    “I knew that I could find more help in apostates, because when I’ve tried in Muslims they discriminate me for being atheist…

    Apostates are some of the best people to glean information about Islam from. When I was engaged to a Muslim, some of the best information and support I was able to gather came from sites like Faithfreedom.org and Islam-watch.org. I will always be exceeding grateful to those sites (and it’s authors) for helping me in learning more about Islam.

    I am a not surprised about the Muslims discrminating you because of how they regard Atheism. In my circumstances, I used to get a lot of information from Muslim themselves about Islam and they were more then willing to help me . However, I was careful to just listen and I always did my own investigating and formed my own opinions. Some of the best advice regarding my engagement came from Muslims themselves – in some instances, they helped reconfirm what I was seeing. I know that’s weird, but it’s quite true.

    “but why do you think he says he loves me?  To spread the religion in a cruel way?”

    He may love you in his own way but it’s a skewed kind of love. He isn’t capable of having a healthy loving relationship because he’s always be tied down by his religious beliefs . He won’t understand about what equality means to a non-Muslim woman or what what having a stable healthy relationship will mean. He will expect to live all ways Islamic and that includes stripping you of many of the rights and freedoms you have.
    It’s possible that you could be the victims of a Love Jihad or he wants you for a visa, money, etc. and I wouldn’t rule this out entirely. Just because the signs aren’t there, doesn’t meant they don’t exist.
    On the other hand, he may sincerely love you in the best way he knows how (see above) and that’s all there is to it. His love will come with at a great cost and the returns you receive back will be less then your share. You will also be the one doing all of the compromising and improvising in the relationship while he remains fixed, stagnated, and inflexible. The concept of equality, compromise, communication, respect, etc. is far different for him and he will obstinately hold onto his ideas. Just something to think about.

  565. Tempest says:

    My advice for you, Tina would be : RUN, RUN NOW! You have no real inkling what you are really getting yourself into and if you think that Islam won’t play a heavy role in your relationship – think again. I would seriously urge you to Google ‘having a relationship with a Muslim man’- there are many sites and forums dedicated to this very topic. I would also encourage you to continuing to learn as much as you can about Islam (in-depth: do not rely on your bf’s interpretations only!) if you plan to stay with the guy.

    It may seem like I am attacking Muslim men in general, but it’s not that at all. Islam is strongly intertwined in the upbringing and beliefs of most Muslim men and it’s sometimes hard to delineate between their cultural and religious beliefs. The majority of these relationships never work out (for obvious reasons) and you have clearly stated some alarming signs.

    You’re lucky in a way that he has shown his “true” colors and what form of Islam he abscribes to (I’m guessing he’s a Salafist or Wahabbist). When someone is that ardently fixated on their beliefs, you will not be able to change his mind and don’t delude yourself into thinking you can. If he is an Egyptian, do not go to Egypt unless you have other people with you and you are paying for your own way. Egypt can be a very deceptively beguiling country if you don’t understand the local language and culture.

    Your boyfriend is a hypocrite all of the way and it’s doubtful that he has any real intentions towards you. The best thing you can do for yourself is to dump him and get away from his influence as quickly as you can. It’s up to you what you want to do and you might have to learn the hard way. In any case, good luck to you.

  566. All Mino says:

    if that the case, so why Ka’b bin Ashraf, the poet, must die? why Asma bint Marwan, the mother, must be killed?

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