God & Afterlife

I Was Hungry

My friend Eric Allen Bell wrote a comment which I thought I should answer. I wrote the following and was going to send to him as an email. Then I changed my mind and decided to poste it as an article, haply it may help others too.
Here is what Eric wrote:

“There is a double standard, one that says Islam is intolerant (it is) but no one can say that Jesus was full of himself to insist he was the only way to “god” assuming a historical Jesus even existed.”

Dear Eric

I was an atheist until a year and a half ago — 100%. About a year and a half ago I started watching testimonies of near death experiencers. Even though I was inclined to dismiss them, I was curious and when I watched a lot of them I became convinced these people are not lying and their experiences cannot be dismissed as hallucination. The evidence is overwhelming. I then watched and read hundreds of stories about NDE.

Eventually I came to accept that we survive our death, God is real and Jesus is indeed the Messiah. I read stories from atheists, Hindus, Muslims and everyone else. Many of these people saw Jesus in heaven. Many of these people say they were sent to hell and Jesus came down and saved them personally. I am talking of people who did not believe in Christianity.

None of that made any sense to me. In fact I was very much upset to know God is real and so are hell and heaven. The reason I was upset was that I reasoned no sane deity would design the world in such a way that some creatures should die and become food so others could survive. If I were God I would design a more compassionate world. I rejected God for his lack of compassion. How could I, a mortal be more compassionate than God, I reasoned. Therefore God cannot exist, I concluded.

But here were people from all cultures, beliefs, ages, reporting that in their NDE they met God and they met Jesus. Hindus don’t meet their gods. Buddhists don’t meet Buddha, Muslims don’t meet Muhammad. Atheists are confused why they are still awake when their body is lying dead in front of them.

After becoming convinced NDE is a real phenomenon and not trick of the mind, I sat down and prayed for the first time in 20 years. I spoke to God. I said, okay God! I now know you exist. However, I want you to know that I don’t want to be part of your world. I don’t care about you, about your heaven nor about your hell. Just delete me. I don’t share your values. I don’t like the way you run your business and I just don’t want to be part of it. I was happy thinking I will go to a dreamless sleep after I die. Now that it appears I will be around even after I die, I just don’t want to be anymore. Please delete me. You have plenty of souls to manage. I don’t want to be one of them. Since I don’t care about your heaven I don’t care about your hell. Are you this petty to send me to hell for telling you honestly I don’t want to be a part of your pathetic universe?

I don’t think I had ever prayed so fervently before. The thought that God is a pathological looney traumatized me. I was a lot happier to think there is no God than believing in a ruthless cynical God.

I received no answer. I went to bed but got no dreams. There was total silence. But I was not going to give up. I kept pestering and asking. I asked over a hundred times a day. My prayer was simple. “God, answer me or delete me.” I shouted it when walking in woods. I wrote it on sands on beaches, incase God’s hearing is impaired. But I got no answers.

Meanwhile, I kept reading more stories about NDE. Gradually, the answer came to me in bits and pieces. Now I know the mystery of existence. Why we come to this world; why is there suffering; what is expected from us. I still have more questions, but at least I got the answer to my early questions.

I also came to know Jesus was not full of himself. He is indeed The Way. However, it is not as Christians understand it. I now see the Bible as a gold mine. In the best gold mines there is more dirt than gold. One has to know gold to see it.

When Jesus says no one comes to God except through me, he is not being full of himself. He is talking about love. Jesus is love. That is the essence of Jesus. It is the same essence of God and the same essence of all of us. The way to God is through love. There is no other way.

I read NDE stories every night. I never came across a single person saying I was asked about my belief. Christians love to think they will be the only ones to go to heaven. You can say they are full of themselves. Jesus could not care less about what people believe. In fact he made this very clear.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matt: 7: 21-23)

The will of my Father!? And what could that be? He clarified that too. “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” (Matt 25: 40) This is the essence of the message of Christ. And that is the only way to heaven.

Howard Storm who was an atheist and was found by evil souls who tormented him in unimaginable ways says he was saved by Jesus. Jesus came down, held him by his shoulders and took him out. Storm says when they approached the gates of heaven he thought to himself this guy is making a mistake. I lived a very selfish life. I don’t belong to paradise. At that moment, Jesus stopped. Looked into his eyes and said emphatically, “we don’t make mistakes. You belong here.”

Storm’s story is interesting. He said not only he was an atheist, the only time he mentioned Jesus was as a curse. But here Jesus was emanating with such a love that Storm says, permeated every “atom” of his being.

Yes Jesus is real and he is the king of the heaven. But he does not give a damn what people believe. The Christians got this all wrong. Storm says he asked what religion is better, and Jesus said the one that brings you closer to God. Obviously he does not care about what we believe.

All these tales about God, Jesus, heaven, hell and angels sound so weird. I still have hard time with these things. Yet that is what people who have been there tell us. There is undeniable and ample evidence that NDE is not hallucination. I have written about that in great extent. So if NDE is true, then Jesus must also be true. Don’t pay attention to the Bible. That book was written by believers and not everything in that book is true. Read the NDE stories. You will find thousands of them online, or watch them on youtube. I learned more from these stories than from all books I read in my whole life.

Wish you blessing

Ali

Please use faithfreedom.org for commenting.This site has some problem with comments as everything goes to spam box and i have to sieve through dozens of spams to retrieve the legitimate comments.

This article can be found here http://www.faithfreedom.org/i-was-hungry/

53 comments

  1. Oh Ali, if you believe and trust in Jesus, then, you ought to believe and trust in His Words, deeds and teachings. Jesus revealed His purpose on earth and He has the power to cast out demonic spirits, heals the sick, deaf, lame and even raised the dead to life, as witnessed by His disciples and all those who follow Him in His earthly ministry. There is power in His Holy name. Can you deny this absolute truth?

  2. You are simply babbling without knowing what Christianity is all about. Are you frustrated as Ali SIna accepted Jesus Christ? Do you want him to accept brahmanical racist concept?

  3. Christianity is the fastest-growing religion in the world; Islam is the second. It’s spreading in Asia, Africa, and South America. So the world is in a kind of religious revival, and the atheists are totally flummoxed. They thought they were winning, and now they see that they aren’t. Dinesh D’Souza

    I hope more atheist wake up from their dream world.

  4. http://islamandchristianitybeliefs.blogspot.in/
    Both Islam and Christianity have the following Common Beliefs:

    i) God is jealous. Worship of God in the form of an Idol or any other Symbol like Sun, Moon, Stars, Earth, Ocean, Rivers, etc. is equivalent to worshipping somebody other than the One God. This arouses jealousy of the One God who inflicts severe punishment for this type of worship. Hindus who worship God in many forms including Nature, are the worst offenders according to Christianity and Mohammedanism. Hindus are called Heathens, Pagans, Condemned ones, infidels, idolaters, Kaffirs, etc., deserving severe punishment, torture and extermination wherever possible.
    ii) Christians and Muslims have both entered into Covenants with God, by which each religious community has received an Exclusive, Irrevocable Power of Attorney from God that its way of worship alone is right, that after death they alone will go to Heaven, others will go to Hell. Of course, the way of worship by Christians is different from that of Muslims. However, both communities claim Exclusive Rights. Believers of Islam become Non-Believers for Christianity and vice-versa.
    iii) This Heaven for Believers is eternal, and the Hell for Non-Believers is also eternal. Once in Heaven, their enjoyments are eternal; once in Hell, others’ sufferings are also eternal.
    iv) There will come a Day of Judgement when all the dead ones will rise and stand before God to get the verdict of either Eternal Heaven or Eternal Hell.

    In addition to their Common Beliefs, the Christians and Muslims have also their own special Beliefs. Some of those are outlined below:

    Special Beliefs of Christianity
    i) Birth by routine sex relationship between husband and wife is a sin. As such, we common people are all sinners. Jesus Christ was born to Virgin Mary, without routine sexual relationship; hence his birth is free from sin.

    ii) Jesus Christ is SON of God. Jesus is the Only Son of God; God has no other Son, nor shall he have any other son or daughter. Hence, Christ is the only way of communication with God.

    iii) Jesus rose to life a few days after his Death on the Cross. This Resurrection is a proof of His Divinity.

    iv) Through crucification, Jesus has paid for the redemption of all sins of all his followers (Christians), at all places, for all time to come. Hence, Jesus is the right and sure way for human salvation.

    v) Jesus has given all Authority to the Church. What Church commands is the LAW for the human race, both on Earth and in Heaven; no one should question it. Any deviation from the command of the Church is violation of God’s Law and hence punishable, as per by God’s Decree. Church is the only authority in respect of Spiritual and Secular matters of human beings. All other Rules of conduct are the violation of Divine God’s Command.

    vi) Jesus is the Way, the only Way, to reach God.

    vii) Those who Believe in Jesus as the only Way are assured of eternal paradise of pleasure after death; others are condemned persons on this Earth, who will go to eternal hell of fire after death. As such, the human race has been divided into two classes of “Holy Believers” and “Unholy Others”; Holy Christians, Unholy Non-Christians.

    viii) It is the spiritual, religious duty of the Christian Church and of every individual Christian to convert others to Christianity. Through this conversion, they are doing good to every non-Christian in as much as they are taking him out of false religion and false ways of worship to the only true religion (Christianity); they are saving the condemned unholy person and bringing him into the holy group of Christians, under the protection of the Shepherd Christ and his Authorised Agency (Christian Church).

    ix) Idol-worship or Symbol-worship including worship of Sun, Moon, Stars, etc. particularly of Non-Christian idols/Symbols, is un-acceptable to Jealous God; Such worship annoys Jealous God and he sends his severe punishment for such worship.

    x) The Holy Bible is the Word of God, to be obeyed by all, without question.

    Special Beliefs of Mohammedanism

    i) There is no Power other than Allah. Prophet Mohammed is His Representative/Messenger on the Earth.

    ii) Allah gave this Earth to Prophet Mohammed; the latter gave this Earth to Mohammedans. As such, the whole Earth legitimately belongs to Mohammedans. If others are to live on this Earth, they have to live as Mohammedans or as willing sub-ordinates (Dhimmis) to Mohammedans, paying Jizya Tax till they get converted to Mohammedanism.

    iii) Allah revealed all His Laws of correct conduct through Prophet Mohammed; his is the correct conduct in all respects-sitting, standing, eating, drinking, dressing, sexing, fighting, taking, giving, etc. He has been the ideal representative of Allah, the best and last of Allah’s Prophets; there can be no Allah’s Prophet after him; anyone claiming to be a Prophet after Mohammed is a hoax; followers of such a hoax prophet deserve extreme punishment and even extermination from this Earth.

    iv) The Laws of correct conduct spoken and practised by Prophet Mohammed form the Laws of SHARIAT. This Shariat is the Divine Law of life on this Earth. All other laws of conduct enunciated by any other person or group of persons on this Earth are invalid unless they are perfectly inline with Shariat. Any civil, moral, criminal or economic law, not in line with Shariat, is an unjust, immoral and tyrannical law which has to be removed from the surface of the Earth; to remove this type of injustice and tyranny from this Earth is the bounden religious duty of every Mohammedan. As such, no government other than Mohammedan government, functioning strictly under Shariat Law, is a legitimate government; other governments have to be abolished; there is no other option for a Mohammedan; he cannot live under the rule of any other law, wherever he may be living on this Earth.

    v) To establish Mohammedanism and Shariat Law in every part of this Earth, Mohammedans have to follow, individually and collectively, the following three stages of struggle (Jihad):

    a) Persuasion and quiet pressurization.

    b) TERRORISM: This should create a sort of TERROR in the minds of non-Mohammedans, that sooner or later, they have got to become Mohammedans; the sooner they adopt this as their own religion, the better it is for them; otherwise, nothing is safe for them -their limbs, their life, wife, family, friends, property, land, etc. When such TERROR is created and established in the minds of non-Mohammedans, the latter shall have no psychological will to fight a pitched battle or military war against Mohammedans. Even if a pitched battle or military war is organised by non-Mohammedans, their defeat is assured because they have been terrorised to lose self-confidence; within their minds they feel frightening diffidence, to fight.

    c) Pitched Battle/Military War: The psychologically weakened, emaciated and demoralized military force of non-Mohammedans cannot face the Mohammedan force which believes that it is fighting for the cause of Allah, for establishing His religion and His Law of Shariat on this Earth; Allah is Great (Allah-O-Akbar).

    vi) This three-stage struggle (Jihad) to establish Mohammedan religion and Law of Shariat on this Earth is a religious obligation for every Mohammedan; to relax on this front is tantamount to dis-obedience of the Command of Allah; the obedient ones will have all the fruits of Jihad: global empire, wealth, and access to all enjoyments. Should a Mohammedan die in this God’s war against non-Mohammedans, he will be greeted by beautiful Hoories at the gates of Heaven; even beautiful handsome boys will be available to the Mohammedan for his enjoyment in the gardens of Heaven; he can sit there reclining against soft cushions, the Hoories will come to him with glasses of wine which does not create intoxication; the Hoories chasten chanting glances at the reclining Mohammedan and he enjoys infinite happiness in the company of handsome Hoories and beautiful boys; the Mohammedan does not grow weak or old at all in that Heaven; eternal enjoyment in that company is the fruit he has legitimately earned through living and dying in the cause of Allah, the cause of His religion of Mohammedanism on the Earth.

    vii) On this Earth, Mohammedans form community and community laws of their own, as per the Law of Shariat; all other laws are unjust and tyrannical and hence invalid for them; they have the divine right to disobey all such laws. For them, political boundaries have no meaning; those boundaries are made by man, not by Allah. The all-powerful Allah has validated only one community – the Mohammedan community; one country-the Earth; one loyalty -loyalty to the Holy Prophet Mohammed; one valid Law-the Law of Shariat. A Mohammedan belongs to only one nationality-Mohammed’s nationality; his allegiance is to only one land-the Holy Mecca. Every piece of land under Mohammedan rule and under the Law of Shariat is a land of justice and peace for him; every other piece of land is a land of tyranny for him where he has to wage a war of Jihad and Sabotage for establishing Mohammedanism. If a Mohammedan is taking his food and hears a call from Mohammedans outside in a street-quarrel, he has to leave his food and rush outside to join his Mohammedan brothers.

    viii) When all other rules and rulers are removed from the surface of the Earth and replaced by the Mohammedan ruler under the Law of Shariat, then there will be total peace and justice on this Earth. As such, the Mohammedans are working only for Peace; Mohammedanism is “Peace and Justice”. It is for this that they are fighting; the second name for Mohammedanism is PEACE. Mohammedans want to establish this PEACE on this earth. They cannot rest until this type of PEACE is established.

    ix) About one hundred years back, in most literature and in spoken language, the religion propagated by Holy Prophet Mohammed was called Mohammedanism and his followers were called Mohammedans; the words Islam and Muslims were not common. To give greater legitimacy and acceptability to this system, the words “Islam” and” Muslims” were made to become more common in usage; it is not a religion given by Prophet Mohammed; this religion already existed with Allah and it prevailed in Allah’s Heaven; Prophet Mohammed only brought it down from Heaven to this Earth. Religion prevailing in the Heaven of Allah was and is ISLAM and its followers are MUSLIMS.

    The weakness of these Christian and Mohammedan Beliefs is very obvious, but who is to question? These Beliefs, without open-ness to reasoning, have led to cruelty and wars.

  5. The explanation that there is Hell and Heaven after death is satisfactory to the extent that it is not ETERNAL as claimed by Islam and Christianity. Why should there be Eternal Infinite punishment for finite crimes? But I agree that there should be something like Hell to punish evil people for their deeds on the earth, people like Muhammad, some politicians selling the country, dishonest frauds and liars, etc. Ali Sina’s explanation that Hell and Heaven are temporary phases after which humans can take re-birth also seems believable, religions like Hinduism and Buddhism claim so. It also seems fair and just. What it does not explain is:
    1- Why has God created a world where life system is such that some living beings become snacks of others? The pain it causes a cow to lose her young calf to a lion is as much as it causes a human mother to lose her child. Why is the system such that such pain is caused massively?
    2- Why doesn’t God come to earth and show mankind the true way and stop the killings in His name? Islam and Christianity are both false, but so many killings have happened in the name of these religions. Islam has killed so many millions of people (in today’s world also we can see Islamic radicals like Boko Haram, ISIS doing it) with the killers believing that they are genuinely doing the work of God. In the past, some Hindus also killed humans as ‘sacrifice’ to God. Why doesn’t God guide such misguided followers and show them the truth, that he doesn’t need killings, doesn’t need sacrifices and he doesn’t hate unbelievers of Islam?

  6. Dear Ali,
    1- You intended to write an article on importance of prayer. Readers like me are waiting eagerly.
    2- You must have read about recent studies concluding that at the end of this century Islam will be number 1 religion in terms of number of followers. Your thoughts?

  7. william:
    It strikes me that your rendition of what I said distorts it, as though the agnostic/atheist designation is a contradiction in terms//.

    Yes,the one is a skeptic (agnostic) and the one is certain (Atheist).Unless you have different definitions then we can look at that too.

    //I can only repeat: there’s nothing in my experience that leads me to believe in theism (belief in an almighty, personal Creator God). No vision, no still, small voice–none of that. The only voice I hear in my head is my own. I admit that, despite this denial of God’s existence in my personal world, there may be a god that exists beyond it–but I have zero interest in seeking him//.

    At least you recognize that your lack of experience does not disprove God’s existence,it only proves that a) you are not a seeker (per your last sentence) and b) not qualified to make assumptions.

    //Seems to me that if this God “out there” had any interest in me, he’d’ve made himself known to me in an unmistakable way by now. He has not. Seeking him out, as far as I’m concerned, isn’t going to make any difference. My heart just isn’t in it//.
    If I understand you correctly,you are not a God-seeker because God has not sought you.In other words God is not a William-seeker.
    ===
    I don’t share the absolute certainty of the materialist. It may be that I’m only a practical materialist, i.e., that I live my life AS THOUGH that were true but without formally assenting to it. It doesn’t phase me that Harris & company have harsh words for agnostics. It’s not like I’m an evangelist for my position.//
    To be completely honest with you,Materialism is not practical to implement on a consistent basis.How does one apply the doctrine of determinism,survival of the fittest and the selfish gene without inevitably violating theist principles?There is no and I mean zero moral principles in metaphysical naturalism.Unless of course you could reference them in our physical laws.There’s no such thing as Atheist morality.
    ===
    Where, oh where, is certainty to be found?? It’s not in the scriptures, despite what billions of every religious stripe have maintained over the centuries. Where, then? “Plausible arguments for God’s existence”: the thought of it makes me groan. Let HIM come to ME & reveal himself. Short of that, not interested.//
    Yes,there are moral arguments for God’s existence,as well as the popular cosmological,ontological and teleological arguments
    ===
    Have you read too much into what I’ve said? I don’t deny the NDE phenomenon, but like I said above, “Let HIM come to ME & reveal himself. Short of that, not interested.” Maybe, if I’m one of the “lucky ones” (Sina), I’ll have my own NDE someday//
    The unicorn and bigfoot comparisons are commonly used by Atheists to disparage valid theist propositions, without having to analyze them logically.For example I could say that the mind is not a physical entity since it does not share any physical properties such as weight,dimension,color,etc. And the Atheist,instead of rebutting it rationally would respond with “That’s like saying there’s a pink unicorn in my garage or that’s like saying there’s a giant anus hovering over my head”.Now that might make a good laugh but it does not qualify as a rational rebuttal.Hope you understand my point.

  8. I already said it is not Jesus or any other religious figures that show up but it is the light, God that shows up as a religious figure only to satisfy the NDEr’s desire.

  9. Ali,

    I have not called Jesus crap. I call all lies and even blasphemous doctrines that make up core Christian belief system “Jesus Crap”. I have only personal respect for Jesus as he taught many good teachings and seemed to have attained some good level of spiritual enlightenment. I have even come to learn that he is one of the spirit guides in the spirit realm. But your new belief that Jesus is the omniscient Almighty God who only can save us from hell fire or grant us heaven and all other humans are at his mercy is simply not true even if you say it is so per some near death experiences.

    As for your personal attacks on me, I did not expect such an irrelevant and immature response from you. Could you not hold your temper and anger when I said my views contrary to your new found christian belief? Is there a Muslim in you still? Is not the way of fury Muslims to resort to personal attacks on their opponents? You seem to be in the starting point of learning spiritual truths. Be unbiased, learn more and more spiritual truths and group up in spirituality.

  10. I hope you will write article on these concepts so that readers can understand your opinions.

  11. Phoenix:

    “An agnostic is one who has heard the theist proposition but suspends judgement until more data can be acquired.The Atheist has also heard the proposition but rejects it. You have managed to hold both positions simultaneously.You don’t know if God exists (agnostic) and you are also certain he doesn’t exist(Atheist).”

    It strikes me that your rendition of what I said distorts it, as though the agnostic/atheist designation is a contradiction in terms. I can only repeat: there’s nothing in my experience that leads me to believe in theism (belief in an almighty, personal Creator God). No vision, no still, small voice–none of that. The only voice I hear in my head is my own. I admit that, despite this denial of God’s existence in my personal world, there may be a god that exists beyond it–but I have zero interest in seeking him. Seems to me that if this God “out there” had any interest in me, he’d’ve made himself known to me in an unmistakable way by now. He has not. Seeking him out, as far as I’m concerned, isn’t going to make any difference. My heart just isn’t in it.

    “All Atheists are Philosophical Materialists by default,with that comes the absolute certainty that consciousness is reducible to physical states and cannot in any way survive death.Your personal position seems unique,perhaps it’s ‘Williamism’ and not Atheism you subscribe to.I attack the brand of Atheism propogated by your public intellectuals like Harris,Dawkins,Dennet et al.These are hardcore Materialists who considers the non-physical non-existent and they very harsh words towards agnostics.”

    I don’t share the absolute certainty of the materialist. It may be that I’m only a practical materialist, i.e., that I live my life AS THOUGH that were true but without formally assenting to it. It doesn’t phase me that Harris & company have harsh words for agnostics. It’s not like I’m an evangelist for my position.

    “how is that you’ve never ever come across plausible arguments for God’s existence which does not require taking recourse to scriptures?Exposing fallacies of religious scriptures like Bible and Quran does not refute God’s existence,it only proves those texts are not inerrant.”

    Where, oh where, is certainty to be found?? It’s not in the scriptures, despite what billions of every religious stripe have maintained over the centuries. Where, then? “Plausible arguments for God’s existence”: the thought of it makes me groan. Let HIM come to ME & reveal himself. Short of that, not interested.

    I wrote: “In short, I don’t deny the NDE phenomenon; I just have no personal interest in exploring it because that would mean resuming the God-search. But, who knows, maybe I’ll change my mind about that when the unicorns come home.”

    You replied: And here you have revealed your true colors.? Your belief is “there is no God”,it’s a settled matter,hence your unicorn comparison.

    Have you read too much into what I’ve said? I don’t deny the NDE phenomenon, but like I said above, “Let HIM come to ME & reveal himself. Short of that, not interested.” Maybe, if I’m one of the “lucky ones” (Sina), I’ll have my own NDE someday.

  12. I wrote a long reply to this but unfortunately it is lost during the server migration. I should have saved it. I am sorry. I liked it and now i have no incentive to write it again.

  13. ” I’m all for the acquisition of knowledge, but we all have to narrow our choices as regards what areas of knowledge we’ll pursue, as you’ll surely agree.”

    Of course I agree. There are many things I have no desire to learn. I don’t care to learn Chinese, or Russian or German. I have little interest in learning IT and computer stuff even though I use it on daily basis. But in the order of importance I don’t think there is anything more important than knowing about the purpose of my existence. What else can be possibly more important? Since you are all for the acquisition of knowledge can you tell me what kind of knowledge are you after that is more important then knowing why you were born? You may say, but there is no purpose to life. Well that is an answer. Is it true? Are you sure? Because if it is not, then you are missing the whole point of your life.

  14. Sorry, I did not find answers of my questions in your replies in faithfreedom.org site.

    You said – Evil is not in the mind of criminal.It exists independently. Both God and evil exist simultaneously.

    My question is- If evil was not in the mind of Muhammad, then did he possessed by evil (mentioned by you) ? If so, then real culprit is evil and not muhammad. You should curse evil and not muhammad.

    You said- God forgives sins of the criminal if he repents.
    My question is – A person is suffering from incurable disease. As per your logic- if he says sorry, he will get rid of that disease. God is not just here.
    If X kills Y and then X says sorry . As per your logic – God forgives X. Is this God just ?

  15. William Vincent

    I’m so sorry.It does appear you are quite different from the average Atheist.Perhaps you are a true seeker after all and the oxymoronic “Humble Atheist” applies soley to you.Let’s look in:

    //You call me an atheist, but what I said I am is an agnostic-atheist; not the same. I’m atheist insofar as I have no EXPERIENTIAL basis for believing in God (you’ll forgive the arrogant caps, but I can’t italicize on this site); I’m an agnostic insofar as I don’t know whether there’s a God beyond the world of my own personal experience. Nor do I care. I’m 65 years old & way done with the God-search//

    An agnostic is one who has heard the theist proposition but suspends judgement until more data can be acquired.The Atheist has also heard the proposition but rejects it. You have managed to hold both positions simultaneously.You don’t know if God exists (agnostic) and you are also certain he doesn’t exist(Atheist).It seems the former approach allows you to appear somewhat open-minded and sympathetic to theism when in fact your latter position shows you’ve already made up your mind and considered God non-existent.Seeking a God experience is futile if you’re an Atheist,since Atheists (specifically hardcore Materialists) reject all subjective experience as invalid ‘brain farts’.So that well has been poisoned before you’ve even embarked on your ‘earnest’ search.Since you claim agnosticism too,how is that you’ve never ever come across plausible arguments for God’s existence which does not require taking recourse to scriptures?Exposing fallacies of religious scriptures like Bible and Quran does not refute God’s existence,it only proves those texts are not inerrant.
    ===
    You’re mistaken as well in thinking I was attempting to “refute NDEs.” Excuse me: I don’t deny the possibility of consciousness beyond death.//
    All Atheists are Philosophical Materialists by default,with that comes the absolute certainty that consciousness is reducible to physical states and cannot in any way survive death.Your personal position seems unique,perhaps it’s “Williamism” and not Atheism you subscribe to.I attack the brand of Atheism propogated by your public intellectuals like Harris,Dawkins,Dennet et al.These are hardcore Materialists who considers the non-physical non-existent and they very harsh words towards agnostics.
    ===
    I said that I don’t believe that people who’ve had NDEs have encountered Jesus Christ–though I don’t mean to suggest that they’re liars.//
    You don’t think they’re liars then you must think them delusional.And your evidence for that is exactly what?
    ===
    That claim on the part of many is what decided Mr. Sina to become a Christian. What I reject is the certain implication that JC is the almighty, omniscient Judge we all have to answer to at death; that and the implication that this man has the power to admit us into heaven, if me measure up, or, if we don’t, to eternal punishment–the most revolting religious doctrine ever concocted, in my view.//
    I do not defend nor promote any religious scripture.So if you’re thinking of launching any tu quoques – don’t.I myself am a Theist and reject the doctrine of eternal damnation,like many other theists and dualists do – not just Atheists.
    ===
    In short, I don’t deny the NDE phenomenon; I just have no personal interest in exploring it because that would mean resuming the God-search. But, who knows, maybe I’ll change my mind about that when the unicorns come home.//

    And here you have revealed your true colors.? Your belief is “there is no God”,it’s a settled matter,hence your unicorn comparison.But here’s where your inability to use logic gets exposed.Invoking unicorns,santa,Russell’s tea pot or FSM serves to make the Theist’s position seem as comical and absurd as possible and by contrast you will come across as rational.But the onus is on you to prove,using Leibniz Law that God and unicorns are tautologies.Or else you’re guilty of a false comparison fallacy and attacking a straw man.
    Invonking fictitious examples does not relieve you of using actual deductive reasoning.

  16. Mr. Sina, in reply to my last comment (primarily directed to Phoenix), you quote a Persian proverb which encourages people to seek out knowledge “from cradle to grave.” All well & good. I’m all for the acquisition of knowledge, but we all have to narrow our choices as regards what areas of knowledge we’ll pursue, as you’ll surely agree.

    I gave you only one reason in my first comment on this site why I rejected Christianity & became an agnostic-atheist (rather than re-examining the claims of other religions, as I had done in my earlier years): it was because I came to believe that Jesus Christ was a failed prophet & therefore no God-Man to whom I am ultimately answerable. This is my settled view. But there’s another reason I’ve come to reject all religious systems & why I refuse to fashion a religion peculiar to myself: I believe that the ocean of pain & sorrow that fills the world & always has firmly points to a godless universe.

    I want to quote in full a letter I wrote some time ago to the editor of a newspaper I subscribe to that should bring my point home vividly:

    As I’m sure many people do, I share the sadness of letter writer [name withheld] over the death of Tyler Doohan, the young boy who lost his life in a house fire in upstate New York recently, after having saved the lives of six relatives. There can be few tragedies in the world more heart-sickening than the death of babies and children by fire.

    Crowley stated that when she learned of the news, she was reminded of a verse in Chapter 18 of Matthew’s Gospel, which refers to all children: ‘In heaven their angels do always behold the face of God.’ But I was reminded of something far different.

    In a book titled “Night,” Jewish author and Nobel Prize winner Elie Wiesel gave an account of his time in the Nazi extermination camp of Auschwitz in 1944. Though only 16 at the time, he was a wholehearted believer; but that first night in the camp he witnessed a nightmare that permanently shattered his faith.

    ‘Never shall I forget the little faces of the children whose faces I saw transformed into smoke under a silent sky,’ he wrote. ‘Never shall I forget those flames that consumed my faith forever.’

    Those Jewish innocents weren’t burned alive like Tyler; before being incinerated in outdoor pits, they were gassed to death in what were deceitfully termed ‘shower facilities,’ together with their screaming mothers.

    Their angels in heaven, meanwhile, were busy beholding the face of God.

  17. “I’m 65 years old & way done with the God-search.”

    A Persian proverb says, “seek knowledge from cradle to grave.” Sixty five is a great age to seek for the truth. In fact due to the experience and wisdom accumulated during all these decade, it is a great age to look into facts. One thing I learned in my life is that there is always something new to learn. The most exciting part of living is learning and discovering new things.

  18. If you believe that God created us, then question arises what was the thing using which He created us ? and why ?
    You said today’s or modern human is evolved from apes. What about highly advanced ancient civilization of Vedic Rishis ( composers of Vedas and Upanishads ) Today’s science has proved Vedic Philosophies like holographic universe, reincarnation and Quantum Consciousness – In your words : Everything is consciousness.

    We know everything is made up of energy. We know the law : Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed. This means the energy or the universe is beginingless ( anadi) and endless ( anant).If the whole universe is made up of energy then what is expanding ? There must be empty space before the creation of universe, through which it is expanding.

  19. Mr. Phoenix:

    You call me arrogant & a bully, but Mr. Sina didn’t reply to my comment accusing me of any such thing. He’s a straight shooter; had he perceived what I wrote as arrogant & bullying, he’d have said so. You know that just as well as I do. You might compare his response to me to his response to Anand Sagar (March 25). While you’re at it, read my reply to Sina’s reply to me, then his second reply–and accuse of arrogance & bullying.

    You call me an atheist, but what I said I am is an agnostic-atheist; not the same. I’m atheist insofar as I have no EXPERIENTIAL basis for believing in God (you’ll forgive the arrogant caps, but I can’t italicize on this site); I’m an agnostic insofar as I don’t know whether there’s a God beyond the world of my own personal experience. Nor do I care. I’m 65 years old & way done with the God-search.

    You’re mistaken as well in thinking I was attempting to “refute NDEs.” Excuse me: I don’t deny the possibility of consciousness beyond death. I said that I don’t believe that people who’ve had NDEs have encountered Jesus Christ–though I don’t mean to suggest that they’re liars. That claim on the part of many is what decided Mr. Sina to become a Christian. What I reject is the certain implication that JC is the almighty, omniscient Judge we all have to answer to at death; that and the implication that this man has the power to admit us into heaven, if me measure up, or, if we don’t, to eternal punishment–the most revolting religious doctrine ever concocted, in my view.

    In short, I don’t deny the NDE phenomenon; I just have no personal interest in exploring it because that would mean resuming the God-search. But, who knows, maybe I’ll change my mind about that when the unicorns come home.

  20. The point I’m making Ali is that the Jesus of the Bible is false. Archeology, Linguistics, and Historical research has shown that he was just another street preacher of the time who could not perform miracles. The figure that all these people are seeing in their Near Death Experiences are either:

    1) Something made up by “God” to make their transition easier
    2) Their brain using past experiences to make up this NDE

    The historical Jesus would be nothing like that which is displayed in NDEs. You need to evaluate how you’re looking at all this Ali. It doesn’t fit especially regarding all the facts that have been accumulated.

  21. And what makes you think you have any understanding of reality? Your views are formed by your religious indoctrination. They are as valid as the views of any religious person. You were born a Hindu and will die a Hindu, never questioning your belief. Is this not what we call the plague of humanity? is this not the reason for all hatred and wars. You call Jesus crap without any understanding of who he was and what he brought. I am not going to educate you on Jesus, but I remind you the reason the world is so hellish, is because the majority of people are dogmatic, bigots and their heart is filled with hatred of the other. Sadly, you are part of this majority.

  22. Ali,

    Have you fallen for Jesus crap? Do you want to promote Jesus cult? From what we know from Bible, Jesus taught some good things but at the same time he also believed in and taught about many untruths like everlasting hell fire, day of judgement, resurrection,etc. Like Muhammad, he even threatened the people of Sidon and Tyre with hell fire for their rejecting him. In my opinion Jesus was an ordinary good man and had attained some level of spiritual consciousness but he was not a highly evolved spiritual man as you try to depict him. You are introducing your own spiritual interpretations to many of his normal teachings. Do you have any intention behind it?

  23. I am placing this following portion translated from the 6th part of Kathopanishad -A dialogue with death ,for further enhancing our understanding of the subject .

    “This banyan tree, which has got roots above the soil and branches underneath, is quite ancient. That (its root) is pure, that is Brahman, that is the eternal and immortal. On it rest all the worlds. No one goes beyond that. This is that (thing that we are contemplating about).

    All these in the world arise from the Brahman, which is of the form of Praana or the life breath and revolves around it in discipline. It functions in clarity and discipline because of the great fear and awe about the strict rule of the Brahman, which is like the upraised vajraayuta – the acclaimed powerful weapon of Lord Indra. Whoever knows it to be so attains immortality.
    From fear of it the fire burns; from fear of it the sun produces heat; from fear of it does Indra sends the rains and the wind blows; and it is because of the same that as the fifth, Lord Yama does his duty of snatching the lives of people.
    If, before death, one is unable to understand the true Self, he is born again on the earth with a body (either as a plant or other stationary object or as a human based on the actions and thoughts he had during his life time).
    The Atma can be seen, felt and understood like the reflection on a glass within everyone’s heart; like a dream in the world of the parents (pitru-loka); like the reflection on water in the world of the Devas (the Gandharva-loka) and like the light and shade in the world of God (the Brahma-loka).

    Recognizing the distinct nature of each of the sense organs (which are unrelated to each other) from the Atma, the wise one who thinks about and understands the reason for the presence of such distinction during the state of awakening and the absence of such distinction during the state of sleep – he remains unaffected by sorrows.

    Beyond the senses is the mind. Beyond it is the brain or intuition. Beyond that is the great soul (one of the aspects of the Atma). Beyond that great soul is the non-manifested or the invisible (or the Supreme Divine called as the avyakta).

    Above that non-manifested is the Purusha (the all knowing and all pervading Atma). He is all pervading and is devoid of any particular mark or characteristic. On knowing Him to be so, the Jiva is liberated and attains immortality.

    The form of the Purusha does not remain before the eyes. No one ever sees it with the eyes also. It can be seen only through a fully controlled mind and strong will power and intellect. Those who have known it to be so attain immortality.

    That state in which the five sense organs (the action organs are referred to as karma-indriya and the sense organs are referred to as gnaana-indriya) remain united with the mind, and where the intuition or the brain remains idle or blank without any thought is the ineffable, supreme state of bliss.

    That state at which the sense organs are devoid of any activity (constant practice of inactivity of the sense organs) is the Yoga state. The wise one who has attained that state is non distracted and remains free from the clutches of the sense organs and their compelling desires – since yoga is essentially of the nature of arising and fading away.

    The Atma cannot be reached through speech, mind and the (naked) eyes. How else can it be comprehended except from the words of the wise sages who have experienced it and affirm that ‘it exists’?

    Out of the two thoughts viz., ‘it can be seen’ and ‘it cannot be seen’, one who firmly believes in the former with concrete will power (and with the idea of it being in a definite form), will be able to realize the ultimate truth (of its no-form nature) which is beyond any sort of forms and speech and thought.

    As soon as all the desires hidden in one’s heart are destroyed, he transcends from mortality to immortality. He enjoys the Supreme Bliss.

    As soon as all the knots in one’s heart are untied while being here in this world, he transcends from mortality to immortality. This is the decision of the teaching.

    There are a hundred and one nerves attached unto the heart. Out of those, one runs upward to the head. The Jiva attains immortality by going up through that nerve. All other nerves take him back only to the cycle of births and deaths.

    (It is said that the Jiva of sages and other wise men goes out of the body through the head – called as the kapaala moksha and also that after their death, a hole can be felt in their skull at the top most center. Probably, this is what is indicated in the teaching).

    The Atma, of the size of one’s thumb, residing in the body is present always and at all times in the heart of the people. As the minute weeds are removed from the grass, so should the Atma be distinguished and segregated from the body by the use of clear intelligence and steady mind. He is the pure one and the immortal, eternal one.

    Naciketas, having gained this knowledge (of the Self) and the other rules of Yoga discipline directly from Yama, attained Brahman or salvation by removing himself of all emotions and desires and attained immortality. Anyone else who thus understands these principles about the Self shall also attain immortality in as much the same way.

    OM! May Brahman protect us (the Guru and disciple) both! May he give us both (enough) to enjoy! Efficiency may we both attain! Effective may our study prove! May we not hate (each other) at all! “

  24. Dear William Vincent,

    There are things I understand and things that I don’t. I can say with certainly that the things I don’t understand outweigh the former. Now that I know prayer is not hot air but a very powerful force, asking for understanding is at the top of the things I ask God when I pray.

    I don’t know what Jesus meant by his return. Will he come back again in a physical form? In that case he would need a new body because the first is gone. So will he be born again? Or does this return is in spirit? He said he had to go so the Comforter could come and the Comforter would reside with us forever. I don’t understand any of this and how they are related.

    The point is that my ignorance of the things that I don’t understand does not invalidate the truth of the things that have been proven. We have a lot of unanswered questions about the Big Bang, what makes the universe expand, Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Evolution and a host of other things. But we don’t deny them just because we can’t answer all the questions.

  25. Thank you for your reply.

    How you can consider Matthew 25 as “golden” but not understand the meaning of Christ’s return is something I don’t understand. But enough.

    I’d like to thank you for all you’ve done & continue to do to expose Islam for the monstrous evil it is. I’ve read a number of your articles on the subject, and I’ve always found them enlightening. I’ve also read your book on understanding Muhammad & Muslims; that too was an eye-opener. Keep up the excellent work, Mr. Sina. Peace be upon you!

  26. William Vincent said:… Include me in the camp of those you deem “willfully ignorant,” if you like, but I have an answer to that.//

    Dear William,your arrogance is duly noted but you’re mistaken if you think this is one of those sites where Atheist bullies can scare anyone with their tactical fallacies which they mistake for Aristotelian logic.There’s no need to threaten us with your answers.Just give us your answers in a straight syllogistic deduction and we’ll analyze them for structural validity and any truth value the premises may contain.

  27. Wiliam says:… Include me in the camp of those you deem “willfully ignorant,” if you like, but I have an answer to that.”

    We have met your arrogant kind of Atheist (as if there’s any other kind) before.I seriously doubt your answers has any logic and evidence attached beyond the usual tactical fallacies,we haven’t tackled here before.You’re sorely mistaken if you think this is one of those forums where Atheist bravado has any value.We’re not scared of Atheist bullies.

    Go ahead,show us your work.What syllogistic deduction and empirical evidence can you present refuting NDEs and proving the truth of Materialism?

  28. I really don’t know the meaning of “return” and how it was meant to be. I am not an apologist for the Bible. I do read it and listen to it and I find many beautiful uplifting and inspiring nuggets of gold in it. When I find things that I don’t understand or make no sense to me, I move on. It may be dirt or it may be gold, incrusted in the rock. If I don’t have tools to extract it I move on to the gold that is easy for me to mine.

  29. This was a very interesting story.

    People’s experiences is different. This person saw nobody other than God. Many people see their deceased relatives and many see also Jesus. The best I can suggest is to read more NDE stories. Gradually you start making sense of it and the differences in the experiences don’t confuse you. I am just sorry this person went an found Sai Baba to follow, a pedophile charlatan cult leader.

  30. Sakat,

    In the other world people don’t see each other in a physical body. They meet each others essence. They don’t even have names. No name is needed there. You just know who you encounter and your minds get connected. Speech is made telepathically.

    Sometimes people meet others with a form that resembles how they were in this world, but that is until they get used to the new environment. Consciousness has no shame and has no gender or age.

  31. I don’t know how do you see Jesus of the Bible. I always had a great respect for the man, even when I thought of him only as a good man and nothing more. So when I saw people meet him in heaven with a kingdom I was not surprised. If anyone has to be king, no one deserves it more than Jesus.

    Of course we all filter information through our perception. There is no other way to learn. However, I don’t find a lot of difference between the Jesus that I had come to know from the Bible and the one seen and described by near death experiencers.

    After reading hundreds of stories of NDE the next world is still an enigma to me. Apart from the fact that I am certain it is real, I can’t be certain of anything else.

  32. In another of your articles (“How I Met Jesus: The Journey of an Atheist”), you state that you regard the words of Christ as “portals of divine knowledge,” words he couldn’t possibly have uttered “if he had no access to divine knowledge.” You’ve also stated that you do not believe the Bible is the word of God (neither do I, being an ex-Catholic turned agnostic-atheist); on the contrary, you regard it as a book made up largely of “dirt” (myths and ancient legends, etc.) with a little “gold” thrown in (e.g., Matthew 25).

    One of my primary reasons for rejecting the Gospel and, yes, Christ (the NDE phenomenon notwithstanding) is that I firmly believe he was a failed apocalypticist and therefore not “God incarnate” to whom I’m obliged to surrender on pain of eternal damnation. I wonder how you yourself would categorize the apocalyptic utterances ascribed to him in the Gospels–as “gold,” as “portals of divine knowledge,” or as “dirt”?

    Jesus assured his hearers he would return during the course of THEIR lifetime “in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels” (Lk. 9:26) to purge the world of all evils and establish his kingdom. That is the utterly plain sense of his words; what’s more, that is most certainly how his hearers understood them. Had he had in mind a time in the distant future, he would have said so–if he was indeed what he claimed to be, the Truth (Jn 14:6).

    Take a listen:

    Truly, I say to you [apostles], you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel [preaching] before the Son of man comes [again, in glory] (Matt. 10:23).

    Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here [now!] who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matt. 16:28).

    Truly, I say to you, this [present!] generation will not pass away till all these things [wars, famines, earthquakes, etc., that precede his return] take place (Matt. 24:34).

    Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here [now!] who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power (Mk. 9:10. No, this verse does not refer to the Transfiguration spoken of the verses that follow, as many fancy.)

    Truly, I say to you, this [present!] generation will not pass away before all these things take place (Mk. 13:30. Cf. Matt. 24:34).

    (He said the Son of man would return) in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here [now!] who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God (Lk. 9:26-27).

    This same apocalypticism is found in the New Testament epistles. The apostle Paul:

    I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short . . . the form of this world is passing away (1 Cor. 7:29, 31).

    . . . THE END OF THE AGES HAS COME [now!] (1 Cor. 10:11).

    For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that WE who are alive [now!], who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [died]. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then WE WHO ARE ALIVE, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air . . . (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

    So, too, the book of Hebrews:

    in THESE LAST DAYS he [God] has spoken to us by a son . . . (Heb. 1:1-2).

    (Believers are to encourage one another) all the more as you see the Day [of Christ’s second coming] drawing near (Heb. 10:25).

    The apostle James:

    . . . the coming of the Lord is near . . . the Judge is standing right at the door (Jas. 5:8, 9).

    The apostle Peter:

    THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND (1 Peter 4:7).

    The author of 1 John:

    Children, IT IS THE LAST HOUR, and just as you heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that IT IS THE LAST HOUR (1 Jn. 2:18).

    The author of the Book of Revelation:

    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON take place . . . blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; FOR THE TIME IS NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3).

    And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show to his bond-servants the things which must SOON take place. And behold, I am coming SOON’ . . . And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, FOR THE TIME IS NEAR . . . Behold, I am coming SOON” . . . He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely, I am coming SOON (Rev. 22:6, 7, 10, 12, 20).

    By the time 2 Peter was written, some Christians had begun to waver in their faith because their Lord hadn’t
    shown. The author of this epistle (who was not the apostle, contrary to “sacred tradition”) referred to these waverers as “scoffers” who demanded to know:

    Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the Fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation (2 Pet. 3:4).

    Indeed they have.

    Soon means soon means soon–not two or three millennia away! Soon means “drawing near,” “right at the door,” “at hand.” What the author of 2 Peter says in 3:8 in reply to the scoffers (i.e., that to God, a thousand years is but a day) has got to be the mother of all damage control. In my book, the scoffers had it right.

    He’s not coming back; not ever. Nor do I believe that the “being of light” people who’ve experienced NDEs say they see is Jesus Christ, “the Son of God.” Include me in the camp of those you deem “willfully ignorant,” if you like, but I have an answer to that.

  33. No one infect has seen Jesus in human form .The historical Jesus came to prominence only during the reign of Emperor Constantine and it was well after 300 years of Jesus death.To understand Jesus we have to rely on Mathew,John and Paul .The picture we have comprehend in our mind of Jesus was drawn by Vatican missionaries in the cathedrals and in the fifteenth century by Leonardo -da -vinci and Michael Angelo etc people .So no one in his life time drew his picture.In that case it is established fact that no one can say how Jesus was looking in his human body.All the people who have gone through the NDE experience might have seen Jesus in the form of available Pictures and idols ,this will not prove whether they met actual Jesus or so ,or their conditioned mind might have experienced hallucination.
    In my part of the world people say they met their God in the form ;they have seen in the idol they regularly worship .Since NDE experience in the west are widely documented so naturally most of them being Christians as well those who are conditioned by Christian missionaries regarding Jesus might have seen Jesus as accordingly depicted in the pictures of Jesus so projected and conditioned in their mind.May be hallucination.
    In eastern philosophy ,we give utmost stress to self inquiry, because we are governed by our unconscious mind all the time .Our personality is build on the behavior of our unconscious mind .My conscious mind may give me warning all the time to do righteous deeds but it is temporary thing ,because sooner than later my unconscious mind over power my conscious mind and drag me to my old habit pattern.Therefore many people who have embraced spirituality and became saint ,later caught in doing wrong deeds .It is not their fault but trick of their unconscious mind.
    I find truth in Buddhas teachings .He always used to say protect yourself from hallucination.He gave prominence for purification of defilement deposited in our unconscious mind .The eight fold path begins with ‘Sheela’,that is to first closed the door for future negative thought from entering the unconscious mind ,then ‘Samadhi’ that is to remove the negativity or defilement already deposited in the unconscious mind ,and lastly ‘pragyan’ or share the love and compassion through the prayer from the totally purified mind and soul for the welfare of whole sentient and non-sentient being the fish in the water ,the birds of the sky the unseen insects etc things . The effect of pryer in such a state of mind is immense,i have experienced it at the end of each session of our vipasssana meditation period.
    Again we have to seek to reach our source through spirituality ,so that we will be freed from cycle of recurring birth and death .
    The Kathopnishad say’s that there is hell and heaven .Each one will be sent according to his deed either to heaven or hell .But it is not permanent ,once the quantum of our deeds over we have to take birth again to suffer here in this material world .
    There is a definite way to cross the boundary of this hell and heaven state of existence .Buddha has shown or rather he brought this scriptural technique to the common peoples knowledge .By following practically the technique, one can reach the source or merge with the truth or unite with the ‘ one without the second element’ permanently .Buddha has reached this ultimate state and reached beyond the scope of hell and heaven state and merged with the ultimate. Therefore it is not possible for anybody to see Buddha .However may be many people might have met Jesus and many other sages and saints in their celestial body.
    The Kathopanishad say’s only human beings can reach ultimate state ,because only human beings enjoy gross as well as subtle body. Therefore if a celestial being want to reach ultimate state of existence then he or she has to take birth as human being and then to work out like Buddha .If anybody has encountered Jesus then perhaps Jesus has not reached the pinnacle of spirituality like Buddha yet.I think there is truth in the say,that Jesus will come back in human form to reach Buddha hood.

  34. Ali the oral traditions of Q, L, M, as well as the writings of Josephus, Pliny, and Tacitus are indications of Jesus outside the contemporary Bible. There’s also the comparison of various manuscripts. Through these sources, historians have determined that two events happened for sure in Jesus’ life: his baptism by John the Baptist and his crucifixion by Pontius Pilot. Also through this they’ve discovered numerous stories such as the famous story of Jesus saving Mary Magdeline from stoning to be completely false.

    “NDE is not subjective. ”

    Every NDE is shaped by a person’s perspective and personal experiences. Every NDE is different aside from the core commonalities i.e. light at the end of the tunnel, meeting loved ones in the afterlife. Whether this is God making it easier for the person or the experiences of the brain manifesting itself remains to be seen.

    “There are many cases where people with NDE gained information from their experience that the did not know.”

    I don’t doubt this at all. Some NDEs have too much circumstantial evidence to be ignored. The problem is you’re putting your own views into them.

    For example all this talk of Jesus is the exact opposite of how the historical Jesus actually is. You’re making him out to be something he isn’t. The historical record of the man proves that he is everything BUT what you say about him in your articles.

    In all likelihood this Jesus that you see in NDEs is either shaped by the person’s subjective experiences of what he/she is supposed to see in the afterlife. Whether this is “God’s” work making it easier for the person to experience the afterlife or the human brain manifesting it’s experience remains to be seen through further study.

  35. Not everyone meets Jesus. But I read someone who was told he had to come back because his time had not come insisted to meet Jesus and Jesus showed up saying what did he want from him.

  36. Why the man (in your reply) did not meet Jesus if you believe that He( Jesus) is in the heaven ?

  37. You talk about historic Jesus. What history mentions Jesus? He is only mentioned in the Bible. The Bible is the testimony of the believers who heard about Jesus and penned it down some years later. The Jesus I know is described by people who died and met him in the other world. We both rely on second hand information. It is not that I don’t trust the authors of the Gospels. I only question the authenticity of their sources. On the other hand I trust more the NDEers. NDE is not subjective. There are many cases where people with NDE gained information from their experience that the did not know. For example a man who died met a mother and son who told him he abandoned them. He came back confused as he did not know these two souls. Eventually he remembered the woman was a lover he had when he was young. It happened that she had become pregnant and he left her without knowing anything about that. He then searched and found the woman’s record. She had a son, some months after he left her who died at the age of 30. He met his son in heaven whom he did not know existed. Explain that. His story is 40 minutes to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FoGAuk1GLM

  38. Ali,

    If your read about the historical Jesus, he was nothing special. Only 2 events in his life can be confirmed, the crucifiction and his baptism by John the Baptist.

    You put too much stock in Jesus and too much stock in NDES. NDEs are shaped by the person’s subjective experiences. You don’t know which one is true and which one isn’t. And a lot of times, the NDE directly conflicts with what we know about the historical Jesus.

    I suggest you look at things objectively and really read about the historical Jesus rather than get your information from people’s subjective NDEs.

  39. 1) Does Jesus forgive sins of people in heaven if he is embodiment of LOVE ? OR we have to pay for what we have done when we were alive ?
    2) You said” Hindus did not see Hindu Gods. Buddhists did not see Buddha. Many of them saw Jesus in heaven.”
    Why EVERYONE including Hindus Buddhists Christians Atheists did not see Jesus if He resides there ?
    3) Why many of them met their relatives and not Jesus in heaven ?
    Please give convincing answers.

    I believe that Jesus was a great man. But I don’t believe that He is in heaven. As per my understanding only those who had heard the sentence ‘Jesus saves you’ , saw him in heaven. If he is really there, he must help everyone who claimed the existence of heaven.
    I hope you don’t delete this comment.

  40. Ali, if Bible was full if falsehood, why can’t Quran?

    Any thought that these NDE stories about people meeting Jesus in heaven are only Christianity propaganda, they have billions of dollars from zealous Americans. But, I know there are some testomonials which are quite truthful.

    Think logically for your survival, who cares about what the after life is and God with what He wants, He is an asshole who loves blood.

    Again, Buddha, Jesus and others preach about love, also homosexuals preach about love, and why when you die, you would see Jesus, not any of these people?

  41. i saw someone replying to a comment by a person(In your article journey of atheists) who said that people have also meet their gurus and hindu gods to this he replied thats where jesus warned to distinguish between devils and god it is this fanaticism that unfortunately propagates see what Christians did tolerant polytheists how they destroyed their temple they are no less than muslims who did the same to India by destroying temple their intolerance rises from the fact that their god is only true god and rest all are false

  42. sir i have no problem if people believe in Jesus whose love is inclusive but sadly that is not the case they believe in jesus of saint paul was mother Teresa an expectation i dont believe so she was their for conversation she may have did many things many others have done good things too but christain media always highlights her works if you see a movie slumdog millionare you will know how much west hates India and hinduism was it something there in movie to win so many oscars nothing that movie was just a average and i hope you have watched Christopher hitchens documentary on mother Teresa …

  43. sir you say hindus dont meet their god but i have seen some videos in which hindus says they meet yamraj god of death and also in some cideo a person says he was affected by a rare virus and then he said aum namah shivay in mind he saw a bright light please dont say that hindus dont meet their god hindus never said christains and muslims believe and worship false gods it is them who make these claims which have lead to many wars and deaths please just believe jesus is 2000 years old people used to die before that if some one has done something wrong how can he be saved if believes in particular deity if that was the came then every one should start doing wrong acts and jesus wlll come and save them in hell

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