What if God Exists?

What if God Exists?

Dear Friend Dr. Ali Sina,

I am a muslim. I am one of your fans. I read regularly your websites.

What if I believe that god does not exist but after death
suddenly I find that there is God. Then I will be a loser. I will
have nothing to rectify my situation then.

So is it better for me to wait until God is proved? I want to be
in the safe side I want to believe in God. Will this be Ok?

Thanks and regards,

Maruf

 

Hi Maruf,

The question you are posing is known as Pascal Wager. The seventeenth century mathematician Blaise Pascal formulated his pragmatic argument for belief in God in Pensées. The argument is as follows:

If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).

According to Pascal, regardless of any evidence for the existence or inexistence of God one would lose nothing in believing in God while one may lose everything if he does not believe in God.

The problem with Pascal’s gambit is that even if we assume that God exists, we can never know which religion is the right religion.  Let us take Pascal’s fate. He was a Christian, but if Muhammad was right then Pascal would be sent to hell despite his belief in God because he did not believe in Allah and his messenger.

Now, let us say Pascal converted to Islam. But what if when he died he found out that Allah is not God and Muhammad was a liar? Then he would be sent to hell.

The problem compunds when you remember that Muhammad said his religion will be divided into 73 sects the followers of 72 of these sects will be sent to hell.  How do you know which sect is the right one?

The same is true about Christianity, Judaism and other faiths. There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved.  So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit?  You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.

Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t.

If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not.  Will God be loving or vengeful? Will He be merciful and forgiving or one who orders his prophet to kill people, loot them and rape their wives.  Assuming God exists, it can’t be the Allah of Muhammad. Allah simply does not have the divine qualities expected in God.

Would a wise and loving God send people to hell and burn them for eternity because they did not believe in something that made no sense to them?  On one hand He gives man intelligence and then he sends a prophet that says stupid things that defy that intelligence and then he sends those who question his balderdash to eternal hell.  Let us say such god exists. Is he worthy of worship?  Of course not! This god is a miserable sick being.

Pascal was wrong when he said it is better to wager on the belief in God because in that way we don’t lose anything. Of course we lose. We lose our freedom. Freedom is what makes us humans.  When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.

You can also be deceived if you don’t believe in God. All these New Age movements are nothing but deception.  Since people have stopped believing in God and churches are becoming empty, charlatans have found other ways to fill their pockets and contol people.

Now, you can believe in God, but know that he is not sending any messages via third persons.  The message of God is in every atom in this universe. It is all around you and the key to understanding His message is through science.

God does not play favoritism and does not speak to any person more than others. His message is universal and for everyone. You can understand the message of God just as fine as anyone else. You don’t have to follow anyone. Observe the universe with inquisitiveness and scientific mind and you will see the message of God all around you. As a Persian poet said, every leaf of every tree is a book of the knowlege of God.

The problem is not the belief in God. The problem starts when some individulas claim to be messengers of God. Then they demand obedience and submission and all they do is mislead people with their lies and cause disunity and hate.  Nothing divides mankind more than religion.

Let reason be your guide.  We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way.  Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him.  This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule.  I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him, God is not a narcissist as Muhammad depicted him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.

I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds.  And yet this sick man, Anders Breivik who massacred 77 youths in Norway kept reading my articles and quoting from my book and claimed to be my fan and still did not understand the core of my message.

A few days ago I received an email from someone saying that since we are “sheep” (good people) and our enemy is wolf (bad people) and since only a wolf can kill a wolf, we “the solders of light”  should be prepared to do “dirty work which might seem evil or violent to the ignorant eye.”

I was nauseated after reading his email and gave him a piece of my mind.  I have no patience and no respect for evil people,  and those who advocate violence and hate, even though they calim to be my fans.  How can people misinterpret everything I write and go about doing so much evil and smear my name by claiming to be my supporters?

I have no association with evil people.  I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not.  He will judge us by our deeds.  Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.

It is okay to believe in God, but believe in a god of love and not in a god of hate. The belief in God can be a great motivator. But let it motivate you to do good and not evil.

The following is written by a reader posted as comment. I copy and paste it here because I believe it should be read.

Dragoste7 wrote that she would correct Pascal Wager and instead would say, “If you Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you don’t Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you don’t Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose everything (eternal damnation).”

I think that makes a lot more sense than Pascal’s wager.

 

 

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This article has 725 comments

  1. Wow, In five decades I have not found this to be true.–> "The problem compunds when you remember that Muhammad said his religion will be divided into 73 sects the followers of 72 of these sects will be sent to hell. ..The same is true about Christianity…"
    Christians, in general, believe that other Christians are saved, and but that it is ultimately up to God to decide, of course. Have they turned away from sin and put their faith in what Jesus did for them? –emphasis on the latter. Is there fruit? The diverse numbers of protestants and even all the Catholics –that I know, believe we differ only in non-essentials. Being a Christian has nothing to do with what location you are in; not a building, region, nor country—not even a family. Therefore many are called Christians when they are not. See who the founder called his diciples.

  2. It is dreadful for me to have born in this world and not know God. And I found mine. Jesus of Nazareth, who loved me so much that he took my place at the cross of calvary and saved me. By his death he gave me eternal life, by his wound I am healed, by his poverty I am made rich and behold he is lifted up at the right hand of of His Father, the God and there will I be with him. He made me a new creation with a new nature which is eternal. I am absolutely sure as to where I am headed and I will spend my eternity with him beholding his glory forever and ever. Herein lies my joy,…eternal joy which nothing in this world can take away. It is all light and not a cloud of doubt. I thank my God of my salvation for creating me and bringing me into this world and leading me into His Joy and Peace to enjoy his richness forever and ever, Amen.

  3. We are a group of volunteers and opening a new scheme in
    our community. Your web site provided us with valuable information to work on.
    You have done a formidable job and our whole community will be thankful to you.

  4. @All
    Why people adopt atheism?

    Most people when they refuse to believe in God are actually refusing to accept superstitions in name of God as propagated in name of religion. The anathema of West against God is only for the God of Bible, Quran and Hinduism. This is justifiable because God of Quran has many contradictory properties and at times acts like a mortal human being. But Vedic God is different. In fact God may not be the right word to denote the Vedic concept of Supreme.

    The Vedic concept is much more intuitive and natural – that there is a source of unchangeable laws of the world that govern this world and us. Physicists may simply call it Law of Nature. Now a smart Vedic follower adds a dash of positivity into this and says that this source of unchangeable laws is acting in a manner that we can enhance our happiness through right actions. We are neither left in lurch like orphans nor allowed to escape fruits of our action. So there is a well-founded optimism that the laws of nature ensure justice and support. We believe so because we see this very obvious in world around and in our innate tendencies.

    But someone intellectual who was nurtured in a society that had completely different notions of a Supreme entity – an anthropomorphic entity, or a moody emperor, or a magician etc – may find such a God hard to digest. And it would be difficult for him to dissociate word God from this meaning and give it a new meaning in perspective of Vedas. For example, Arya is a very noble word. But in Germany, people would somehow try to link it with some sort of racism because of the Hitler episode. These words trigger certain emotions due to their previous associations and hence difficult for many to appreciate any new meaning easily.

    Thus atheism is a natural and rightly-directed aversion of a truth-seeker from what his mind considers as unfounded notions. So in being atheist, he or she is STILL acting as a loyal follower of Vedic religion.

    In other words, a truth-seeking atheist or agnostic or even a superstitious believer in some other notion of God is STILL a Vedic person, if he or she believes in these notions honestly after whatever experience, expertise, intellect that they possess at a given moment in time.

  5. Dear Ms Ali Sina, the truth is that Truth doesn't care whether you like to hear or believe it or not. The absolute truth cannot be altered to suit your personal taste at all. The problem with some people is that they like to sugar coat the naked truth while they are still alive and well but we know that this is truthfully wrong because at the end of life journey, we have to face the ultimate truth that we are all spiritual beings and there is life beyond the grave when we step into eternity. Heaven is real and so is hell. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, these two eternal places are real! I wonder when will an atheist like you come to your senses and realise that it's so foolish to believe in nothingness? Atheism is not enlightenment but foolishness in the eyes of those who have gone through near death experience.

  6. Part 2.

    As a Buddhist I believe in different planes of existence including ones labeled hell and the divine abodes. What the nature of these are, is not as I would imagine, since all that I can imagine is limited by what I experience as a human being. Indeed what is the human realm, this I do not really understand either. But understanding it is what I have been talking about, and also the Path leading to this, which is the fourth of the 4 Noble Truths. Those other realms, being sensuous realms just as this one is, I can have better understanding about therefore, through studying the nature of the mental and physical phenomena that make up my life as a human being. So if I were to point to the existence of those other realms, I'd suggest also that in essence, they are no different from the experiences we have now. Hell is where one experiences much physical pain through the five senses and the divine abodes is where there is much pleasant experiences.

    Now, this is already so hard to understand and convince anyone else about. When pointed out to the fact that all that can and needs to be understood is what appears to the consciousness “now”, there is very strong resistance and people drift off to one or more of their cherished beliefs which gives them pleasure. How then can one expect that using as tools those concepts based on wrong understanding will lead one day to the Truth? Impossible! Indeed you end up inevitably reinforcing the wrong understanding and attachment to a new set of beliefs if not those old ones.

    Yes, there is no need to prove whether or not there is God. The question does not even arise for one who is a student of reality. But pointing to this Truth or reality is the only solution, is it not? Failing this, would we not end up simply replacing one set of wrong beliefs with another?

    The good that I see in your position Mr. Sina, is that as it is with most of all the major religions, you appreciate the value of good deeds and the harm of evil. What you and all religions outside of the Buddha's teachings (not Mahayana but only the one derived from the Pali canon), end up inevitably falling prey to, is having wrong understanding with regard to the way things are. The reference to God is one example of lack of Right Understanding and the influence of wrong understanding. So too, is the person who has ended up believing that science holds the key to the knowledge with regard to the Truth. Science is built upon concepts and does not hint even slightly, at the truth, as far as I'm concerned.

    Believers in God are obviously not enlightened and neither are atheists. But you and I have different meaning with regard to the concept. To me only a Buddha could teach the Truth and therefore only those who follow his teachings are on their way to enlightenment, although I won't be surprised that no one alive today, is actually “enlightened”.

    This is already too long Mr. Sina, so I'll stop.

    Ps: It looks like this discussion should not take place here. I'd suggest therefore that if you are interested in discussing further, we can do so off-list…?

    <end>

  7. Part 1.

    I appreciate your response, but feel a bit hesitant now to proceed with this discussion. This is because I believe that you have not come across the interpretation of the Buddha's teachings like the one I come from. But let's see what happens…

    Yes good is encouraged because it is wisdom which leads the way, and this then makes wisdom, the highest good. I do not like to think in terms of people having high and low level of awareness, since I see each mind moment as conditioned by various factors and people as having accumulated all kinds of wholesome and unwholesome tendencies from way in the past. And with regard to what has been in my own case so far, I live in ignorance all day with the little wisdom being only at the level of an infant, although this is enough to recognize many of the grosser expressions of wrong understanding made by other people. In general however, I'm no different from anyone else.

    Regarding teaching about the Truth (with a capital T), the question is, do we ourselves know what the Truth is?

    There is according to the Buddha's teachings, the Four Noble Truths. These point to all there is in reality, anything else is concept i.e. the product of thinking. The first and most important step therefore, is understanding the reality vs. concept distinction. The levels at which this and everything else which follows is understood is three, namely, intellectual, direct and penetrative. This means that when expressed, all these must conform to the other.

    With regard to the first two of these Truths, namely Suffering and the Cause of suffering, this is all that make up the experience of beings, including that of humans and animals. In the case of animals it is ignorance all the way through, but only. In the case of a human being however, unless one is only a child, there is also wrong view / understanding, and this is worse than when its mere ignorance. Ignorance blinds, but wrong understanding misleads.

    This means that we do make statements about reality all day, such as I feel pleasant, I am angry, I am sick, or the flower is beautiful etc. Only that these are conditioned invariably by ignorance and sometimes by wrong understanding as well. The wrong understanding which has failed at making the reality / concept distinction and ended up taking all those experiences for "self".

    When we then want to point to someone else the Truth, the reference point must be “now”. Any parable and metaphor must be aimed at directing the attention to the realities that make up our moment to moment experiences. If it leads to taking concepts for reality and to proliferations in terms of the past and future, then it must mislead.

    <end part 1>

  8. Good must be done for its own sake. Its reward is in the very act of doing it. This is clear to you and to those with higher level of awareness. I have talked about this in some of my articles. However, not all people have the same level of awareness. Just as our intelligence is different, so is our awareness.

    When you have a readership as diverse as what Internet offers, you must speak in not one, but many languages. We do that every day. You use different concepts and different lexes when you speak to an academician than when you talk with as toddler.

    I sometimes talk about God, paradise, hell and even Devil. I don’t believe in any of these, but they are useful concepts to get my message across to those who are familiar with them.

    My goal is not to prove the existence or inexistence of god, but to stimulate rational thinking. This is an ability that comes with training. Once people learn to use it, like a tool, they can discover the truth on their own. I don’t want to show people the right way and be their guru. That is a very persona journey and everyone is capable of doing it. For that they need is learn how to use their rational faculty. That is what I hope to achieve.

    Furthermore, I don\’t believe that believers in God are any less enlightened than atheists.

  9. Coming in from the Buddhist perspective, I say that any position we take is not without consequence. Belief in God is associated with wrong view and this can never lead to any good. The suggestion by Mr. Sina that, "The belief in God can be a great motivator. But let it motivate you to do good and not evil." is misleading.

    Good is done for its own sake and increases by virtue of understanding it's nature and at the same time, that of evil states. To refer to God takes one away from the possibility of this ever happening, and makes any motivation, simply another psychological technique aimed at a particular result. This means that anyone who believes in God and continues to do good deeds, does so not as a result of the belief, but in spite of it. But the good will not develop and increase, and one day may even change since no understanding with regard to the nature of the different mental phenomena has happened.

    So it all comes down to the development of right understanding with regard to the nature of phenomena. The suggestion that rational thinking is key is therefore misleading as well. Without right understanding any reasoning ends up only supporting one kind of wrong understanding or the other, as is apparent in the case of Mr. Sina.

    I'm not trying to discourage him from doing what he does, in fact after coming upon his website (just this week) I sent a link to two of my friends. The only thing is that I wish Mr. Sina would do what he is doing with right understanding. Because otherwise it is replacing one kind of wrong view with another which in the long run is just the same.

  10. Dear Maruf

    I am now returning to my roots which I have abandoned and re learning again how to be a Christian. It is a personal choice and I can say that I am quite happy with it. Isa al Masih a.k.a. Jesus talked a lot about good things and is generally a good man. Again that is a personal choice.

    I read your replies and questions and I feel your burden because there is a need for you to believe in God to ensure your "safety" – Here is my take or advice if you will

    1. The fact that you are reaching out and debating here means that you have already lost faith in Mohammed and Islam. so, in your heart, you are almost "free". Why not make it entirely free

    2. When I was a non practicing Christian I told My wife that the reason is because I don't want to believe in God anymore because of all the killings and quarels in his name and there is a good chance that he does not exists.

    I told her a simpler version of Pascal's gambit and mine is like this. In this life time, I make sure that I live it is as best as I could. I don't kill, I don't cheat, I don't lie, I don't steal, I don't bear bad witness to my neighbors, etc etc and I acknowledge that there is a powerful being that I believe will reward me for my good deeds. My default stance is I don't believe in God. So when I die:

    A- If there is no God, then I am alright. But I still have lived my life honorably and people that survived me i.e. my sons, wife, friends, etc will always say he was a GOOD Man

    B- If there is a God and after I cross border and went into the light there he waits for me: I will then say…Look man. I am sorry that I didn't believe in you but you got to acknowledge that I did alright and was a very good boy. IF he punishes me despite being such a good boy just because I don't believe in him… then there and then I WILL KNOW what a F**king asshole he is and I will tell it to his face before he sends me to hell…But You and I know that it will not happened because the TRUE God, (if he existed) will actually pat me on my back and said well done son. You are truly a good man and wellcome to my party

  11. advice coming from Tea, ummmmm no thanks i'll pass.
    What qualifies you to be a shrink all mighty Teatotal?

  12. Yeah that's why we fear to be free or express ourselves or criticize our religious leaders…

    God fearing Christian is just an adjective to a pious christian just like in some countries they say kleenex instead of tissue paper knowing that Kleenex is not a word definition to tissue paper but a famous company that manufacture it.

    God Fearing came from old Jewish description, but there is no real fear like scared or terrified or anything in Christianity.

    I'm not going to lie, many Christians are afraid of god but most of those are uneducated, can't write or read, they come from poor countries and are being manipulated by rich corrupted religious leaders.

    You have no clue TeaTotal

  13. "Both Atheists and Christians are not weak because they do not fear God " ?!

    Atheists don't even believe why should they fear of nothing?!
    God fearing Christian => About 7,250,000 results Google?!

    Anything will work but Anti-Islam this is the agenda. ha ha ha

  14. I have only said people who are opportunist in belief are weak. I think there is bit problem with you not being christian but psychological one.

    BTW read Maruf in comments section. Later on we will go for finest possible treatment for you.

  15. Thank you. I am glad you liked it. This debate is becoming so long that I wonder if anyone reads it.

  16. Wow i just noticed the modification on the article :)

    There are no words to describe how i just felt :) :)

    Thank you Dr. Sina :D

  17. We are not Weak! Both Atheists and Christians are not weak because they do not fear God and they dare to live their humanity.

    As a Christian i believe in my God and do not fear him or death. Unlike you, I know my God and without hesitation100% sure of what i said in my previous post.

    You're the weak, Muslim. So weak and afraid that you dare not to question your evil cult led by Satanic Mo!

    You are in no position to judge Maruf. At least he dares to question Islam.

  18. Read Maruf in comments !

  19. God of Love? God of Hate? Is this a challenge to Omnipotence ?!

    There might be some more coming up God of manipulation, God of hypocrisy and even God of Atheists

    Maruf is a moron and Pascal Wager too. When you suspect God and your belief is this much dismantled to be opportunist on just believing . You really don't believe He exist.

    Why we need to believe God? If it's lie why this universe universally lied ? Are we some bubble on sea filled with air coming out from no where and will burst to no where ? How believing God end uncertainty? These questions are good rather than safe side weak psychos.

  20. Dr Ali Sina you are amazing just the way you are :)

    "The problem starts when some individuals claim to be messengers of God"
    "Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule"

    Dr Sina keep up the good work and being a human using his brain and heart. I know you already figured it out but I say it to confirm: You have nothing to fear in this life or in the afterlife :D . And I'm a Christian saying that.

    " I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds."
    I too have been saying that all along to everyone including some misguided Christians who think that salvation is only for believers:

    " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21
    and that will is : "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 13:34

    Conclusion: believing in God does not save us, believers also believe Satan exist so "Believing" is not what we should place our bet on. Being good humans and loving others will save us. THE GOLDEN RULE WILL SAVE US.

    Dr Sina said: "It is okay to believe in God, but believe in a god of love and not in a god of hate"
    on the god of hate he said:"Let us say such god exists. Is he worthy of worship? Of course not! This god is a miserable sick being."

    So Dr. Sina and Jesus(who I believe is god) inspired me to correct Pascal Wager:
    If you Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you don't Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you don't Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose everything (eternal damnation).

    Maruf and others don't you ever believe out of fear for only a god of hate feeds on fear and in that case it's better not to believe at all. Hope this helps you too :)

  21. You understand thus considerably with regards to this topic, made me in my view imagine it from numerous varied angles. Its like men and women don’t seem to be involved until it is something to accomplish with Woman gaga! Your personal stuffs outstanding. At all times deal with it up!

  22. You haven't answered my questions, maruf. :p

  23. Dr Ali Sina, the world is waiting dying to know from you if Mr Walid Shoebat, Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are right about Mosab Hassan Yousef's double facet. Please go to FFI and let us have your most sincere comments about this controversy. Thanks. :)

  24. Dear John K, don't you know that a thin foundation is better than the foundations of lies? It's very sad to know that a pretty smart bird like you is too dumb to see through the lies of that cult which is built on the foundation of all kinds of lies and weird teachings.

  25. Dear Dr Ali Sina, I'm glad to know that at least you've got the right sense to conclude that Baha'u'llah was wrong in his beliefs and teachings though he was a good man.

    You said, "The problem with prophecy is that it can be interpreted in any way you like. The two chapters you mentioned are pretty vague. Yes Jesus repeats those words on the cross, Elohim lema sabaqtani, but that is because he had heard them recited many times."

    Come on, Dr Ali Sina, if I prophesied that you will have a son by tomorrow, please tell me how you can interprete my prophecy in any way you like? Were the two chapters vague and not clearly written for your understanding? Is your knowlege and understanding far worst off than a little child? Which joker has the cheek to tell you that Jesus cried out 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani' when He was hang on the cross, is because he had heard them recited many times? May I know who is 'them' as per your claim? Don't you know that Jesus Christ is the Word became flesh and He had a great mission to accomplish while he was walking on planet earth?

  26. I would say that God uses natural laws above our level of knowledge and capability rather than that he supercedes them.

  27. Prophecies and miracles are very thin foundations for belief.

  28. Hi Matt,

    The problem with prophecy is that it can be interpreted in any way you like. The two chapters you mentioned are pretty vague. Yes Jesus repeats those words on the cross, Elohim lema sabaqtani, but that is because he had heard them recited many times. wouldn’t you say the same if you find yourself in trouble? Does that mean Isaiah prophecized about you?

    Now if you believe in prophecies, I invite you to read this page. http://www.alaska.net/~peace/bahaullah.htm Here you see Baha’is make a pretty compelling case that Baha’u'llah was foretold in the Old Testament and even named by Jesus. They quote passages from Daneil that show the exact date of the appearance of Babi and Bahai religions. These prophecies are far more convincing than what you find in Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. So if we accept the two chapters you mentioned as evidence we must accept the calim of Bahais too. They are a lot more precise.

    Now Baha’u'llah’s teachings are not bad. They are actually quite advanced, which fit into our time. The problem is that Baha’u'llah accepted Muhammad as a prophet of God and I know for a fact that is not so. So, if he was wrong about Muhammad, why should I believe in anything he said? The fact that Muhammad was a false prophet is beyong proof. If anyone says otherwise that person cannot distinguish between right and wrong, and hence the Bahai faith cannot be true.

    The problem with prophecies is that none is clear and without ambiguity. You can find “prophecies” about anything in any book, and interpret them as you wish to validate your belief.

  29. Ali,

    Considering that your life is probably in constant danger for the work you do, I don't know if you're still seeking the truth about God, despite being a non-believer. I assume you've probably already been told about the evidence of divine inspiration in the Old Testament, in the form of prophecy (such as Psalm 22's "crucifixion experience" and Isaiah 53's "pre-gospel" of Messiah). If these sorts of things no longer affect you, I can't say I blame you, after being around God-cons so long. Nevertheless, my heart goes out warmly towards you, and I have prayed on your behalf to the King I know personally. Stay safe, my friend. Thank you for all the work you have done.

    Sincerely,
    Matt

  30. Maruff,
    Why do you think memerizing the Quran is a mystery? This is absurd. There is no mystry in memorizing anything.

    In some cultures in Africa or in Amazon people paint themselves. What is the mystry of that? Is there a mystry? Of course not. It is part of their belief or tradition. When people believe something is important they do it. Muslims think memorizing the Quran is important so they do it. There is no mystry in this. When you ask these kinds of question one wonders about your ability to think rationally. The question is not rational at all. I know you heard this silly argument from Muslims but that is a silly argument.

  31. Anyway I don't know why you don't want to visit the website anymore. But if that is you decision I respect it. If you change your mind you are always welcome. This is a great site. To learn about ones religion the most,
    is to hears from the mouth its critics . My only wish for you is to know the Truth. May God bless you in your quest.

    Ria

  32. Does memorizing Quran break any natural law. Natural law is if as many people make and effort to memorize something they will success in doing so. I my opinion there is no miracle in memorization of anything because God is not the one who performing the act and humans and making the efforts. The result of the human effort of memorizing Quran is incredible but not a miracle that proves Quran is divine in origin. There origin is in question not the preservation.

    I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I know many Christians who memorize large part of Bible. But the benefits they have in memorizing is these verses are, they easily retrievable and they can apply to their specific situation even if they don't have a bible at hand. They can help themselves and counsel others who are in need. However no miracle is claimed only practical knowledge and wisdom. Their memory power is amazing but it not a miracle that proves Christianity is true. THE TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY DEPENDS ON WHO GOD IS, NOT ON WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE CAPABLE OF.

  33. What is a miracle? It is when the impossible happens.

    Biblical definitions of Miracles are those acts that only God can perform; usually superceding natural laws. Miracle occurs to show that the power behind it is not limited to the laws of matter or mind as it interrupts fixed natural laws.

    There are many miracles in the Bible, I will give you a select what came up as top 10 when I did a Google search.

    1.Creation
    2.The resurrection
    3.God stops the sun when Joshua prays
    4.Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead
    5.Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
    6.Crossing of the Red Sea
    7.Balaam and his Talking Donkey
    8.Jesus Walks on Water
    9.Ten Plagues of Egypt
    10.Jesus Exorcises Legion

    These lists are exhaustive in Bible but the point is God is in the business of impossible and these events list above have broken at one principle of nature. For example it is impossible for a man to revive a dead man after couple days, but is possible for God to do the same. Because he is God and to be human mined it difficult to comprehend therefore it is a miracle.

  34. How ridiculous. I gave you a very long list of finds on those links, of varying quality from 2nd hand references to solid finds of people who have articles on them on Wikipedia. You're a real basket case.

  35. You have the right idea. We can't judge our success by whether or not someone accepts our ideas now, because, as you say, further down the road the memories of our words can come back.

  36. Yes I know that, he is not looking for an answer. Even if I say everything that is true ,he will still feel that he has won, because we were not able to convince him to change his mind. For me we don't have to win him, but what we succeed is to plant a seed and someone else will give it time and water it will grow. Therefore helping with the cause with Dr Sina in a small way even if planting a seed in one persons heart will be contribution. Hopefully one day he will truly understand what a miracle is.
    Therefore I want to give it a last try to answer Marruf. Also he was not condensing and he conducted himself very good here unlike lot of others Muslim who just engage in name calling and hate mongering. I have hopes for brother Marruf.

  37. Hi john,

    You said ""This is clearly false as I have shown you ample instances of people who have memorized the Bible. ""

    I browsed your instances/ links found nobody.

  38. ''From our perspective, the problem is your brain is short-circuited with Muslim programming. Get an anti-virus program to clean the infection from your brain, then reboot to see clearly.''

    Saying a Muslims brain has short circuited is this being respectful to your fellow man and not insulting Muslims ? (A claim you said you were not doing )

    Saying Muslims religion (Islam) is a virus you do not know this as you have showed your lack of knowledge on Islam,the Muslim people, history and countries they used to live in and what they currently live in today

    John K said ''Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar, and the Quran says your God is a liar. The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan. ''
    ''Allah = Satan ''

    OK first ''Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar''

    You say someone is a liar do you know this Muslim at all ?

    Islam was based on a liar because a few extremist think it was so it was ?

    Again name calling

    Second: ''and the Quran says your God is a liar.''

    Read learn and study before stating complete wrong facts about a religion

    Third: ''The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan.'' ''Allah = Satan ''
    ''Do the math Maruf. You are a follower of Satan''

    Who are you to play God ?

    Most Muslims, Christians and Jews know that they all worship the same one God I know it might be hard to accept but that is the truth about it so stop trying to justify abuse on the Muslim people

    About the Allah is the devil do I have to link that funny video again ?

    The math is simple most Muslims, Christians and Jewish people know they worship the same one God only the few believe what you and others on this site believe (the 1%)

    But Many know that this 1% does not make up the entire Jews or Christians who believe this none scene on this site (Allah is the Devil)

    As the small 1% of Muslims who are terrorist do not make up the normal everyday Muslim

    You try and use an example of math but you and others constantly say that the 1% of violent Muslims represent the other 99% just going about there lives hurting no one

    Even going so far to make claims that they are a terrorist in the making if they are Muslim, if they are hurt they brought it on themselves for being Muslim, books banned, Ban the practising of Islam,force removal of Muslims from none Muslim countries, force removal of the face covering, lying about other countries to justify invading them

    What thinks you all have the right to make these comments about innocent people?

    The world will not let any fanatic justify abuse of an entire religion or people

    -JSOP

  39. He doesn't want to get any answer. You don't have to answer him. :-) .

  40. Marruff I want to think about the answer….give me day !

  41. "your answer will probably be my last visit in this site."

    Your presence here has been a great disappointment as you have demonstrated no real willingness to learn and you have resisted material that has been presented to you.

  42. In your brain.

    God gave you one.

    Islam disconnects it.

  43. "I have questioned Mr. Ali Sina, John K, enlighten 25 about the mystery of quaran memorising. They all failed to answer the question."

    Enlightened25 is right. You have a strange definition of "fail" because all of us have thoroughly proved you are wrong about this. From our perspective, the problem is your brain is short-circuited with Muslim programming. Get an anti-virus program to clean the infection from your brain, then reboot to see clearly.

    "I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word"

    This is clearly false as I have shown you ample instances of people who have memorized the Bible.

    Why are you a liar Marufff? It's bad enough that you are deceived by a fraudulent religion.

    Do you really find it impossible for you to win an argument without lying?

    That just proves your religion is false, because you cannot defend it with honest arguments.

    "the book is 3/4 size of the bible." Another lie. My Quran is less than 400 pages, and it includes extensive citations from the Sira and Hadith. My Bible is 1590 pages without the Appendices. That makes the Quran about 1/4 the size of the Bible. Then if you just want to count the Old Testament, it is 1184 pages, which is three times longer than the Quran, and the Old Testament was memorized by chanting by Levite priests in far greater numbers when producing written copies by hand was more difficult than memorization.

    Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar, and the Quran says your God is a liar. The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan.

    Allah = Satan

    Do the math Maruf. You are a follower of Satan.

  44. I already answered that just because someone can memorise something does not mean it is divine. You yourself admitted a hindu you know memorised a lot of the koran. "I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word and the book is 3/4 size of the bible." Nonsense pick up any book, read the first page over and over again and then try and recall it from memory. If you do that you will soon progress though the whole book, this is what the muslim kids do and it takes them a few years before they can memorise the whole koran. This is the Explanation of the "mystery" of memorising the koran, nothing supernatural about it.

  45. Dear John,

    Where math of sin, justice and mercy could be found.

  46. Dear Ria,

    I am long waiting getting response from you. I have learned many things from you. During my course of learning I have questioned Mr. Ali Sina, John K, enlighten 25 about the mystery of quaran memorising. They all failed to answer the question. Say that understanding is better than memorising. I also know it but it is also true that memorising the whole book facilitates preserving originality of the text.I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word and the book is 3/4 size of the bible. Could you please tell me the mystery. Hearing your answer will probably be my last visit in this site.

  47. Yes… So what is the end?No matter what, No Christ no peace! Christ is the only source of peace.

  48. NOT REALLY , WE DON'T need God to set standards for good or evil. Golden rule is good enough to set the standards. You can read Dr. Alisina's views on golden rule.
    It will be helpful.

  49. Matthew 11:28
    28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    John 14:27
    27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

  50. "I would be hateful if he did not do any horrific crime and me just calling him all the names above."

    That's the point people miss. It's not hateful if you are telling the truth.

  51. To toil day and night yet to find no peace! The burdens are heavy laden and yet the sweat of your brow touches the ground. Day and night passes, weeks and months passes, and years. Do you see end, do you see peace? I tell you all you all see nothing. But ask this what id the end result. Once a very wise man said that he has seen it al, he has eaten, drunk, merry, chased women, had many children, many riches and the list goes on…yet in all his pleasures and satisfication, joyness and sadness… his life was not full. He says there is nothing new under the sun. So as the wise man say… there is nothing new!

  52. Yes I agree to that, that's what Maruf is been doing. He just was not looking for any other religion, he was looking for any other superior religion. Well when you already make up your mind what is superior in your mind, no one can change your mind. Marruf follow the liar, looter, lunatic, pedo, in name only prophet to hell. And in there you can discuss who is superior or better religion.
    I would be hateful if he did not do any horrific crime and me just calling him all the names above. But you will not able to deny and justify his action. You can just pretend his perfect and has no sin.

  53. Right. So sort of a subtle strategy to put Islam on top.

  54. This Maruf is asking for a replacement to Islam and then goes "tu quoque" on the presented religion.

  55. He 'wants' to hear something in replacement of islam and then pull out the "you too" gun.

  56. Its Georgics. I was finally found it in the wikipedia search I made on the day I read about it in the ffi.

    Thanks for the answer.

  57. "move along – nothing to see here… "

  58. That's why they move, right? :p

  59. How lucky for them we don't apply sharia punishments here!

  60. Fitna is worse than killing. ;)

  61. This is what gives an underlying taste of plotting and methodical sowing of fitna to his posts. Abdullah Ishan followed the same pattern, but Maruff is not as obvious, so it is difficult to be certain of his sincerity.

    Playing the memorization card is somewhat like playing the magic card, as if there's some divine process guiding and aiding this Quran memorization phenomenon, which is really pathetic since most people who memorize Quran don't understand the words they are memorizing anyway. It's really a means of social control to prevent people from spending time doing useful and productive things.

  62. You have expressed a personal preference. While I respect it, it is not a proof. Truth is better than fiction. It is better to accept the truth whether it is pleasant or not.

  63. Maruf, you didn’t prove anything because you have avoided my questions about life and death. When you failed to answer the query your opponent gave you already lost. It’s that simple. You said that theism is better than atheism. In your own standard, bounded by your own very self, yes but it won’t solve the problem I presented here and its diversity. :p

  64. Not really, the Quran is just words and words have the same difficulty when comes to memorization no matter what language you are using as long as you do that just to memorize its sound. You can see other memorization in Hinduism or Buddhism.

    I start to doubt your sincerity of searching other religions. You should know it by now if you were serious.

  65. Can you explain it? What is logic Maruf? I sense that you don't understand what you are talking about otherwise you would answer my logical questions about life and death before. :p

    One thing that I don’t get it is the similarity between Islam and eastern religions including Buddhism or Hinduism despite the fact that Quran is clueless about it. Apart from the hajj tradition which required them to dress like a monk with shaved hair of course, it also has memorization. Buddhists or Hindus memorized their scriptures too as a part of studies and preservation.

    The chant happened because there was no technology sufficient enough to store it. The same happened with the Arabs at that time.
    :p

    This is logical conclusion and memorization is not logical solution for divine preservation. ;)

  66. When will you discuss the problem eh? Shouting right and left about unclear statement like this won't prove which sect is right or wrong. :p

  67. You have not proved that theism (let alone islamic theism) is true.

  68. Dear enlightened25,
    I have already proved that theism is better than atheism.

  69. Wizzard, You have been brainwashed by Islam since your childhood. That's why you are fighting tooth and nail. Just like once English people proverb : "Right or wrong : my country".
    If you were born as a Hindu or any other faith than Islam, would you be able to find the truth about Islam and Quran, too? Would you see any beauty in Quran?
    I have a querry about Islam, If Quran is from an Omniscient being , designed by Al mighty Allah as a guidance for mankind, why did He make it unclear? Why is it hard to understand by us as His creation?In fact there are so many sects in Islam.
    If you think other religionr are fake. It is very likely that Islam is a lie too.

  70. "The chance of Allah being God is nil. However, let us assume that Allah is god. Will you be saved if you believe in him? Not according to Muhammad. Muhammad said his religion will be split in 73 sects, the followers of 72 of them will be sent to hell. IN Reality Islam is split in hundreds of sects. Do you know which one is the right one? So even if you believe in Allah your chances of going to heaven is really very low."

    What do you mean which sect is the right one.. that is what Allah has given you intelligence for…
    And also the quran.. which is protected by him.. and how do i know this.. because i questioned it..

    If you take the time to study all the religions.. and search for the right one.. you will find it.. but if you are too lazy, do you think you deserve to go to heaven…

    Most people are too lazy to look for the truth.. and gladly accept whatever anybody tells them.. coz they feel then they have a chance..

    Where did you get your info on islam.. from some muslim.. from some molana.. from some muslim priest.. whatever..

    We have to seek the truth ourselves.. and use our intelligence.. but if we have this attitude.. like yours that you deny it… then you can't be deserving of heaven..

    Read the quran.. but the translations are not 100% accurate and the devil does his work too..

    but seek the truth.. and when you finally reach the real quran.. the real meaning.. you will know its from god… no human is capable of such speech.. and you will be convinced of gods greatness. thereafter if you accept him.. you must believe that he knows more than you.. that if he instructs us to do something its for our benefit…

    even if we don't see it.. coz we are narrowminded and can't see the future..

    I'm sorry for people like you.. that base their opinions on what they think they know, by hearing it from a third party.. you haven't studied quran for yourself… or else you would know it to be the truth and the word of Allah..

    some people must have told you stuff and it didn't make sense…. so you took the extreme and said its all bullshit.. when instead you should have investigated for yourself.. as i have done .. and found out that what they were saying is a load of bs.. but its from their own mouths and not the word of god… and what Allah says.. you will know to be the truth.. and you will know it to b good and beneficial..

    but whatever.. do what you want.. and see for yourself in the end..

  71. Why do I get the feeling you are talking about yourself? Look in the mirror and say those things to yourself. The experience might give you enlightenment.

    We criticize ideas. You put down and insult people, myself particularly. This must be a sign of some deep jealousy on your part.

  72. What truth?

    Why do you think it is a truth?

  73. No i think your silly question is one of the biggest jokes ever. To prove your claim you have to prove all of these things 1)God exists. 2)Allah exists. 3)Allah is God. 4)Allah sends messengers. 5)Muhammed is his messenger. 6)That the koran is the perfect word of Allah and can have no mistakes.
    If you can prove all of that then you will have proved that the koran is special. The fact that people memorise it is not proof of anything. Futhermore i can prove that God does not exist, and if you ask for the proof i will give it to you.

  74. Dear enlightened pundit (scholaress},

    Your answer to my question is "Whatever the reason"" may be the best joke of the year.

  75. John K said ''The trouble with you is that you make wild accusations without any familiarity with the people you are accusing. ''

    Basing all of my comments on your comments that you have posted and the way you miss quote and how you teat and put down Muslims for being Muslims

    ''You apparently come from a background that has no familiarity with academic rigor, scholarly standards, and professional criteria. ''

    Read your own comments they are not of any higher standard (false claim of being smarter again) others on here have called you out on this also

    You only read and see what you want to read and see

    Constant put down of others and name calling is a Contradiction to your faith.

    Realise that some Muslims do read the same texts as you also.

    Never misjudge those you are in a disagreement with

    ''You speak English well but seem to have no familiarity with Western knowledge traditions. Instead you blindly accuse your opponents with the same sloppy techniques you Muslims use. ''

    Not accusations I am basing it on the comments you have said about Muslims and Islam

    You have said :
    Muslims are terrorist
    No such thing as a passive or none violent Muslim
    Muslims and Islam are Nazis and Communist
    Certain sects are shirk
    Quran should be banned
    Forced removal of face coving
    Muslims are savages (yet acting like a savage yourself)

    Many more comments that are violating Muslims rights

    ''We are not the same as you. Don't assume we behave and operate the same as you do in your culture which is heir of primitive tribal barbarians.''

    Constant put downs of other cultures.
    Like a comment you said about all Muslim countries being backward and savage this shows you have no knowledge of any country but your own ''Free'' one.

    Look at all the contradictions in your country before looking to others rather then trying to justify imposing your views on others

    No surprise you act like this I have come across many like you before (All Muslims and other countries other then yours are inferior)

    Saying these comment shows you are nothing more then a bigoted Mormon who does not want to spend any time trying to understand anything that is different to you.

    -JSOP

  76. Read about the persecution of the Shia and the family of Muhammad (peace be upon him)

    You are going on the only sect of Islam being true is the Salafi

    Focusing only on the small % of Salafi that are Salafi Jihadis or Wahhabism (violent extremist off branch of Salafi)

    Read about shirk and what it means

    All Muslims are Muslims

    Only Allah can say who is a Muslim and only Allah can judge mankind

    -JSOP

  77. Yes you can call me plain lucky. I tell my christian friend's about the website, some of the politically correct do not care. But please give me suggestions how to put this site infront of my muslim friend. That what will matter more.

    People do not care. Seems like even if it happens in their backyard they forget soon. But I am determined in my cause to put the real Isalm infront of my muslim friends. Because I care for them. But my issue is the starting point.

  78. Hmm… looks like your message got clipped. Try again.

    Also, it looks like the relative positions of the URLs are shifting in Google search results. For example, the Fifth Reference is now Ninth. http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/personal-effec

    I should have posted the URLs too.

  79. Dear John,

    And I also know a person naming John Komblin Memb, memorised the whole and entire bible who resides in the earth no -2

  80. Good grief Maruff! Don't be so boring!

    From the very first reference in the first link:

    "I know two who have memorized the whole Bible." http://www.toi.edu/Resources/Memorizing%20the%20B

    From the fifth reference:

    Post #3 "I'm familiar with SRS systems and mnemonics. Could these be used to memorize the entire Bible, both Testaments, word-for-word? … I've heard of people doing this, but I don't know if it was really true."

    and

    Post #23 "It was said that you could open the bible, old or new testiment, and say the first five or six words of any verse you care to pick, and he would finish the verse, and then proceed to finish the rest of that chapter or book, whichever you prefer, from his memory alone. It was said by many that he memorized the entire KJ version of the bible and other scriptures accepted in that church."

    and

    Post #26 "Memorizing the Bible has many benefits and rewards. I know of some people who have memorized the entire Bible word-for-word. Right now, I am using the same method as others have and so far, I almost have 15 books of the Bible memorized word-for-word. My goal is to memorize all 66 books word-for-word."

    Post #31 "There's a guy who memorized the entire bible after a NDE.

    Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife http://www.near-death.com/&quot;

    From the first reference in the second link:

    "Yes, 6 people have memorized the entire Bible. Keith McKittrick, Charles McNabb, James Beal, Nancy Fines, Peter Lear, and Charles Rose."

    and

    "I actually do know a few who have, yes. It's pretty remarkable: if you give them a reference they can tell you what it says. But it's not miraculous. It's just an impressive feat of human memory."

    and

    "Benjamin Franklin, they say, memorized the whole Bible.
    John Chrysostom memorized the New Testament."

    and

    "Bill Gothard has memorized the Bible in at least 4 different translations."

    and

    "Ancient writers and poets (before 1900s) had memorized the entire Bible. They discussed, analysed and quoted every verse."

    and

    "I think Marshall Keeble actually did this."

    Fourth reference: "I think Marshall Keeble actually did this."

    Eighth reference: "According to Wikipedia, Jack van Impe…" … "Roshith" … "the late sister Agnes"… "a woman who was going blind memorised it so when she did lose her sight she still had the scriptures." … "Angel Martienez, Southern Baptist Evangelist" … "John Goetch the Executive vice president at West Coast Baptist College" … "Eric Sauer( Principal of Wiedenist Bible School)" … "Kim Peek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek "

    Ninth reference: "a Baptist minister named David Miller that has the whole Bible memorized"

    And so on. These are just the first pages of two Google searches out of millions of pages. If you want to be a researcher, you have to learn to dig, and the more you dig, the more you will find better examples of what you are looking for. After you get a larger sampling, you discard the weak references and keep the stronger ones.

    And after all this, what do you have? Nothing. As stated here repeatedly, what does it prove that someone has memorized something. There is absolutely no theological importance in counting people who have memorized.

    I did this exercise as an example to help you. You need to learn to do your own research. And that means accepting data found with integrity whether or not it supports the question you are researching. This is called the scientific method. In true research you don't have a preconceived notion and just search for what backs you up. That is called politicized science, and it is not valid, like the recent "Climategate" revelations that again show that the Global Warming people are cheating on their science for political purposes.

  81. Also, the ease of memorization decreases in the order:

    Songs > Poems > Proses.

    If Quran is 100% what muhammad had uttered, how does that matter in the validation of truth.

    If you believe satan exists, then why satan has not the power to deliver messages to human beings? Why satan cannot tell prophecies to humans?

    From your posts, logic does not seem of any value to you.

  82. Poems are easier to memorize than Proses.

    You will remember poems years later not proses in its entirety.

    What is so 'holy' and 'intelligent' about the phenomenon of Quran memorization?

    I would have to read the full thread if I want to find out your intent.

  83. I have never read Quran.

    Poems are easier to memorize than Proses. What does that prove?

  84. So you do think that`s a good reponse?

  85. Remember, his purpose is to find the religion which is better than Islam. :)

  86. Dear enlightened25,

    Thats a good enlightened pundit (Rational Scholar)

  87. "My point was why koran is easily memorisable and the rest are not. Why? What is the reason." Whatever the reason, it is not becuse the koran is the word of allah becuse it is impossible for allah to exist.

  88. "He debated Sri Ravishanker, Raksmi Vai Zaveri, Dr Willium Campbell, Pastor Ruckni and also kept himself open for Mr. Pope also as well as any body who can gather at least 10,000 people." Notice how he only debates religious people, how come he has not offered to debate rationalists like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens? We all know the answer to that question it is because they do not have any religious beliefs to attack.

    "You are not daring to debate with him publicly showing many excuses." Why should Ali Sina have to show his face? For one thing i am sure he does not want to live under police protection for years (like Salman Rusdie had to). Furthermore what is Naik`s excuse for not having a written debate?

  89. "It might also be evident that actually there was no real Ali Sina instead there is a Christian Missionary Group." Ad Hominem you attack the person to invalidate the arugment which is a logical fallacy.
    1)Person A makes claim x
    2)Person B makes an attack on person A.
    3)Therefore A's claim is false.
    I hope you can see the fallacy because if you don’t you are never going find the truth.

  90. Dear Ali Sina,

    You are trying to answer a question by deviating from the question. Now a days its not difficult to understand koran as arabic + translation in readers language is provided in the same book. One can memorise and also understand at the same time. I myself also tried koran and bible to memorise but failed to memorise bible when memorised the koran. And also could not find anybody in the world who memorised the bible or else. My point was why koran is easily memorisable and the rest are not. Why? What is the reason. But you are answering a question why is memorising is not good but understanding is good.

    In ancient times memorising was essential for preserving the authenticity of the text when there was no printing machines. So I think easy to memorise is a plus point for koran to be in its original text.

  91. "In a written debate it could be continued life long like this forum." No they don`t though they may go on for many weeks or even months.

    "Debate should be in public and there should be Judge." Why should? In public debate your opponent could say any lie and get away with, in written debate you can`t.

    "I think the muslims have one Dr. Zakir Naik against rest the world." Out of 1.5 billion muslims their is only one man that can defend islam. Why do you need zakir naik to defend islam? Why you or any other muslim cannot do it? What can Naik say that you can`t?

  92. Dear John K,

    I found nothing in those links http://tinyurl.com/75fr6em http://tinyurl.com/7vc9uta about bible memorisers.

  93. Dear Ali Sina,

    You said, ""I challenge any Muslim to a debate and will show him that he has no understanding of the Quran.""

    You ask muslims to written debate. In a written debate it could be continued life long like this forum. Generally there is no norm of written debate. Debate should be in public and there should be Judge. I think the muslims have one Dr. Zakir Naik against rest the world. He debated Sri Ravishanker, Raksmi Vai Zaveri, Dr Willium Campbell, Pastor Ruckni and also kept himself open for Mr. Pope also as well as any body who can gather at least 10,000 people.

    You are not daring to debate with him publicly showing many excuses. Which we understand that you have only plausible, slippy, sneaky forum type debate activity which is only a drama of debate. It might also be evident that actually there was no real Ali Sina instead there is a Christian Missionary Group.

  94. Very poor logic to wrap up a truth.

  95. He did in answer to you and many other Islamists. His answers are in this articles and the debates in this site. Didn't you read them ?

  96. Look to the right side of your comment level with the "Reply" button. You will see a blue "Delete" button. If there has been no reply, you will also have a blue "Edit" button.

  97. Ditto!

    (or should I say, "gobble") :D

    After that, get ready for "chestnuts roasting on an open fire".

    (Be safe on Black Friday – or just stay home…)

  98. Happy Thankgiving to all FF friends.

  99. Can this comment be removed ? I really made up a sloppy explanation. I don't how to remove this. Would the moderator help me in removing this comment ?

  100. Mr Naik didn't bring arguments. He bought up insults disguised as arguments. In the ZN vs SSRS debate he only gave statements. E.g. Kaaba's stones name in Arabic. Lets say SSRS brings the argument that the kaaba's stone is talked about in Hindu Scriptures because in sanskrit the name of the stone is given. What ZN could have said is If the said sanskrit name refers to the Kaaba stone as SSRS said, it shouldn't mention something else in someplace else. SSRS was irritated with this guy rather than defeated. ZN never allowed SSRS to answer. Anyone can answer an argument with a counter argument but not an insult.

  101. Maybe you are thinking of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). There's some discussion and I posted a couple of videos on it in the "Does God Exist" article.

  102. It's too bad people have such a "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" attitude.

  103. LOL! I think the Golden Rule would consider the gullible shopkeeper too. That's why we have laws, police, and jails!

  104. Hi John,
    In someplace in this site, the people were telling about a very scientific greek work. I don't remember. Could you kindly remind me if you knew the name of the work ?
    I remember it sounded like a country name but couldnt place it.

  105. You are just plain lucky sister…Just plain lucky. :-D . Do you send the articles from Alisina.org to other christian friends. Sending them to mohammadean friends is out of question as they can get violent. But what about christian/atheist guys.

    Most the people I sent the articles to, brushed it of and said it was an invitation to conflict. I merely asked them to beware of the muslims but they are worried about the confrontation.

  106. To elaborate further, as a shop keeper who works by the golden rule.

    Thou shalt not deceive they customer with poor products. However if the customer is bent on deceiving you, create a win/win situation by not trading with him and makng the deceiving customer to look for a more gullible shop keeper.

    Can you see how this become a win-win situation ? Its too big to be discussed here but the book "The Ape in the corner Office" says it better. I can't ask you to read the book. Search the Internet with the words "Win-win". The articles that talk about the situation are more than enough..

  107. There is a problem when you ask people to renounce their 'search' for a religion and keep practicing the golden rule in life.

    The golden rule has been explained beautifully by Dr Ali Sina. I will add to it by saying the golden rule is about win-win situation for the all the parties in a situation. Search the internet "win-win".

    But People somehow think, living without a search for a religion is much 'lower' in status than living with one. Incase of being an apostate of Islam living among mohammadeans, the apostate only has to stop living like mohammad did and start treating his Islamic relatives and friends with the golden rule. He/She (apostate) only has to create win-win situations for them and him/her. That is all that is required. Somehow people confuse discouraging Islam with fighting Islam. Whaddya say ?

  108. Let’s cut this general accusation and go straight to the point. There are many discussions about Islam in the comment page. Each and every one of it contains specific topic and of course far from finished. You are making accusation of half quote, misinterpretation or false context. Now, your job is to practice it so enough with the theory.

    Saying “twisting fact” without pointing the fact will not make anyone listen to you, of course, other muslims will because they will listen to anyone who is in the same side.

    The judge is the readers/visitors. Assuming that Sina broke his promise for the challenge you still could defeat this site through natural way. When a muslim could present a good, logical argument thus making the challenge fulfilled this site would be automatically lose its visitors, other pro Islam sites would copy the answer and give detailed information for the step by step description of Sina’s error and dishonesty. Any newbie or neutral readers would lose interest and consider this site as hoax. The image of the “answer” would haunt them whenever they thought about the challenge (assuming that you can answer). It’s not easy to deal with “ghost”, you know.

    Making accusation after accusation will only make you lose respect. I know most muslims here love to make “deleted refutation” in order to feel that they have answered everything. The easiest way to do this is to provide links to or in other sites. I suggest when you want to accuse something you bring proof of what you claim. It’s easy for me to say that all refutations are erased too by the pro Islamic sites. This is an empty claim. In the end, each sides will claim “deleted refutation” and proclaim the win just like kids.

    Sina’s helping muslims with his own way and of course muslims who behave like a muslim will get harsh reaction because muslim is harsh to unbelievers. But when you look at the article, not the comment, especially the letters, you can see his desire to help. If he wanted to bash and purely spreading hatred he should do it differently. Bash, insult, make fun, boast and ridicule them all the times whenever he sees letters or articles from muslims. That would be more satisfying.

    You advise to read all comments but you didn’t read any comment that deal with Islam. Is this how you judge?

    o.0

  109. Board sweeping accusation? Yes, you did that because you never entered any specific topic. You made general and opined statement just like most muslims here.

    Showing or reacting to hatred cannot be considered as “speaking hatred”. It’s more like a natural response to an ideology which actually contains hatred.

    Another subjective statement:

    “Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia”

    In here, you didn’t even prove that Islam doesn’t want to implement its law to the rest of the world which Muhammad and his followers had done in history. Mere denial and accusation is not going to work.

    Nothing is considered as double speak when you are dealing with hateful ideology. Human rights can only be given to people who actually respect the same human rights and consider that humanity is bigger than god. Let’s imagine you faced a criminal but you had a very strong self principle that you would not hurt anyone. The criminal in the other hand didn’t care about that and could hurt anyone as long as it was in line with his desire. Your principle would not work on the bigger picture and you had to consider the larger rights (other people) this criminal wanted to abuse.

    In this case Islam doesn’t recognize the same human rights you are talking about. It only gave 2 rights, the muslim and the dhimmi. The dhimmis (Christian and Jews) are cursed because of shirk, misinterpretation and rebellion, they will go to hell. Can you say they are people of god? Anyone who commits the gravest sin against Allah deserves to be killed if they don’t repent.

    Most members of religions know nothing but ignorance and speech from their religious leaders. They often have the same mind and view because the view is formed using the media or the community. The general statement is the proof whenever I see one saying “don’t spread hatred” or “religions are all good”.

    o.0

  110. Look at the Muslims he has helped on this site and how grateful they are to him for what he did for them. Some day you will thank him too.

  111. "Just because someone isn't an extremist doesn't mean they are not a Muslim" I already explained they are following their religion the koran has a name for people like you it calls you hypocrite or like i said a "non-muslim" muslim.

    "You or anyone does not have that right" I can say what the hell i like and i won`t be told what to say by some cultist like you.

    "I have said all Christians Jews and Muslims are brothers and all of them killing each other is a pointless power and political struggle between the extremist of each religion" What about the atheists and polytheists are they not brothers? Or is killing them good?

  112. Well then don`t come to the kaffir countries if you won`t uphold the first amendment keep your religion away from me. Don`t tell me i need the supernatual dictator to tell me what is good and how to live my life. Why if you believe the muslims should have rights over the non-muslims, why they should accept the muslims? Go and live in your own state don`t bring it to us we don`t want that bullcrap forced on us. No i treat people as they treat me if you want to force your religion on me, what right do you have to complain if i force my view on you?

  113. You missed my entire point rather the quoting a entire quote you and others only quote half of it or try and say it means something which it does not mean.

    State wrong or twist the facts and try and pass them off as a truth

    ''If you win, the money is yours to do what you want with it. These sites will also be shut down, and Dr. Sina will publicly declare that Islam is a true religion.''

    I find this hard to believe as he is the judge of his own argument and a extremist who hates Muslims would not praise them over night just like a Extremist Muslim who hated Jews would not praise them over night.

    Many have stated where he is wrong yet alas the hate site is still here

    If anyone fully (Showed in detail how he is wrong on every subject and all his Articles) proved Ali Sina was lying the comments would be deleted or would twist what they were saying or name call like a child and go back to posting his nonsense.

    Ali Sina is not trying to help any Muslim (This is proved by how he treats them in the comments)

    As Ali Sina is spreading paranoia, bigotry and Hatred

    Many believe this as true as his followers are extremist themselves

    Read all comments and the violence directed at the Muslims and you will see this to be true

    -JSOP

  114. I do not agree with this for many reasons that I have listed.

    Not really a good example of the '' best ''

    -JSOP

  115. Read about all of the Muslims harmed by extremist also

    For example the Shia in Bahrain and Indonesia by the Sunni extremist (Not all are extremist as that would be stereotyping an entire sect of Muslims)

    Just because someone isn't an extremist doesn't mean they are not a Muslim

    You or anyone does not have that right

    Never said there was no such this as an extremist every walk of life has them

    I have said all Christians Jews and Muslims are brothers and all of them killing each other is a pointless power and political struggle between the extremist of each religion

    -JSOP

  116. "I do not agree with this as Godless countries" What i mean when i say Godless is that religion should be seperate from the state, in a secular country a atheist, christian, jew or muslim could be elected as president no such thing could ever happen in a islamic state. Secular means to keep your religion to your self, yes you can preach it, you can worship and all the rest of that just don`t impose it on people that don`t believe in it. What i am talking about is summed up in the US Constitution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

  117. "Only Extremist not all of them most are just going about there lives." Well why aren`t the Non-extremist (or in reality non-muslim)muslims speaking against those who in some neighborhoods try to impose (or indeed do impose) sharia, where even the police are afraid to go? Or the rise of antisemitism amoung the muslims and the shouting of things like at allegedly anti-zionist protests "we are all hamas now" and "send the jews to the ovens?"

  118. "This comment shows your hatred"

    It shows nothing but your intolerant judgemental and presumptuous attitude.

  119. "Saying I should be banned for speaking ''hatred ''"

    Just letting you see how your medicine tastes.

    "Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia''"

    I gave you the link for the National Security briefing on the Sharia threat and you call it paranoia? What nerve.

    "Double standards of saying you respect human and civil rights yet trying to justify taking it away from Muslims"

    What civil rights?

    "What you are others are saying is hatred"

    Didn't I show you these already?

    Why Are You Spreading Hatred? http://alisina.org/why-are-you-spreading-hatred/

    Why Are You Spreading Hatred Part 2 http://alisina.org/why-are-you-spreading-hatred-p

    You really mystify me as to why you keep beating the hatred drum. You even moved me to review the site again to see where you are getting that attitude. Ali Sina has a gentle caring tone in his writings, and it's obvious that he cares deeply about Muslims.

    The only explanation that I can come up with is that you are too emotionally involved with Islam and you cannot take any questioning of it without getting emotionally involved, and then you project your emotion onto us.

  120. ''That's his style. Broad sweeping accusations with no substance. A real hater. Hate speech like his should be banned. If he lives in the UK, maybe we can sue him.''

    Did I strike a nerve John K

    Saying I should be banned for speaking ''hatred '' yet saying the Quran should be banned and the force removal of the face coving is a good thing and speaking hatred yourself

    All extremist know how to threaten you when do do not know what you are talking about

    Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia''

    Double standards of saying you respect human and civil rights yet trying to justify taking it away from Muslims

    I am saying All Christians Jews and Muslims are people of God and all extremist (all Religions) should not be killing each other this is not hatred

    What you are others are saying is hatred and Most Jews Christians and Muslims know this.

    -JSOP

  121. ''. But how can it work when the muslim immigrants want to have their religion imposed on everyone?''

    Only Extremist not all of them most are just going about there lives.

    You seem to not understand this.

    ''On multiculturalism i think its good but can only work in a country with a godless constitution that protects freedom of religion, freedom from religion and free speech''

    I do not agree with this as Godless countries can become just as corrupt as one that is lead by a Muslim, Jewish or Christian Extremist.

    Also they use any excuse to justify doing corrupt or harmful behaviour (Morals are very flaky)

    You should not agree with ban as this as it is not right to do

    Shun all forms of corruption and wickedness

    -JSOP

  122. John K said : ''Bravo, bravo. Immigrants need to integrate into their host societies, not bring their culture with them. It is the only way for nations to preserve their identity. They have the right to defend themselves against cultural encroachment. ''

    This comment shows your hatred for anyone who isn't like yourself

    Muslims are not enforcing anything at all

    Force removal of the face covering is just as bad as the forcing of wearing a face coving (which most wear by choice) This is taking away the Muslim women choice and violating there human and civil rights

    It is good to see that most Jews and Christians do not believe this as only the radical and bigoted are the only one who believe this.

    Read what is happening, Muslim woman are not creating the hatred a radical Geert Wilders is playing on those who hate Muslims

    Open bias against Muslims and most Jews and Christians people know this to be true

    -JSOP

  123. On the headscarf ban i don`t agree with it, not because i agree with it but i think its practically impossible to enforce such a law. If people want to walk the streets in a halloween costume fine but they should not complain if they are insulted. As for banning the koran it should not be banned on the contrary everyone should be encouraged to read and study that book. On multiculturalism i think its good but can only work in a country with a godless constitution that protects freedom of religion, freedom from religion and free speech. If all those things are upheld then yes a multi-lingual,multi-ethic,multi-religious society can work. But how can it work when the muslim immigrants want to have their religion imposed on everyone?

  124. The one who refuses to continue, fail to answer and commit logical fallacy is the one who loses.

    Now, if you want judge then we have another problem. What kind of judge? In sport, even the judge can commit mistake and tendency.

  125. Balanced and healthy is the correct lifestyle for human. You have money but not blinded by it and you have social responsibility at the same time. Living a simple life is too vague. Does poverty mean simplicity? Being rich, can do what you love to do and contribute to society is simple actually because that's what many human really want personally. There are many rich people who donate their wealth to others, leaving their child with almost nothing.

  126. Your brain is paralyzed by fear. Fear is the weapon of all cults to control the mind of their followers.

  127. It's the source that you have to analyze, not the wiki. ;)

  128. "The world doesn't need warmongering fantastic thinking they have the right to impose there views on others".

    Precisely what Islam is.

  129. Wrong again.

  130. an answer which doesn't answer.

  131. I have many queries about Islam, care to answer it?

  132. Memorizing books is not central theme of other religions because memorizing it will serve nothing. People at that time had invented writing so it will be more practical. What's the use of memory if you can't verify or do it?

  133. Nothing mysterious in memorizing Quran. You are not convincing anyone here. Islam has its own error and mistake so it is not a matter of convincing but fact. :x

  134. That means memory proves nothing and of course you can't verify memorized verses. Actually, that's just one reason out of many for me to know that Islam is wrong.

  135. Monster of this age, yes, if they followed what Muhammad had ordered. :)

  136. Already done of you bother reading it. :D

  137. Lacking explanation, just a complain. :D

  138. It would be better if you just deal with the specific topic rather than general and subjective accusation. A true (divine) good message shouldn't leave opening for twist and turn, likewise, it could be applied to the muslim too. :D

  139. That's his style. Broad sweeping accusations with no substance. A real hater. Hate speech like his should be banned. If he lives in the UK, maybe we can sue him.

  140. Now who is distorting? That is not what he said at all. It is becoming increasingly apparent that you are just a liar following the example of your prophet.

  141. The trouble with you is that you make wild accusations without any familiarity with the people you are accusing.

    You apparently come from a background that has no familiarity with academic rigor, scholarly standards, and professional criteria.

    You speak English well but seem to have no familiarity with Western knowledge traditions. Instead you blindly accuse your opponents with the same sloppy techniques you Muslims use.

    We are not the same as you. Don't assume we behave and operate the same as you do in your culture which is heir of primitive tribal barbarians.

  142. You are quite condescending to assume that I do not know how to acquire information.

    It is you who are bringing belief in a savage 6th century ideology to our modern times.

  143. "All read about the radical Geert Wilders who wants to tax women who wear hijab"

    Bravo, bravo. Immigrants need to integrate into their host societies, not bring their culture with them. It is the only way for nations to preserve their identity. They have the right to defend themselves against cultural encroachment.

    "Stop the hatred"

    It will stop as soon as you stop creating it.

  144. No need to fret pout or worry! :D

    That concept is not a subset of my statement.

  145. All read about the radical Geert Wilders who wants to tax women who wear hijab

    Fascism’s new face in Europe, parliamentarian in the Netherlands Geert Wilders, proposes taxing Muslim women who wear hijab (head covering) 1000 Euros. He is a close friend of Robert Spencer who has proclaimed that “everyone should support Geert Wilders.” Wilders has also called for the banning of the Quran which he equates to Hitler’s Mein Kampf , has stated that Muslims are colonizing the Netherlands and has advocated the denial of religious freedom to Muslims.

    Geert Wilders has done it again. The leader of the far-right Freedom Party managed to make the Dutch headlines during the annual general political debate.
    Wilders’s newest proposal is to tax the Muslim headscarf. Any Muslim woman who wants to wear a headscarf – which he described as a ‘head-rag’ – would have to apply for a licence, and pay one thousand euros for the privilege. Wilders says the money raised would go toward women’s emancipation programmes.

    The rest of the Dutch parliament reacted to the proposal with disbelief. One after another, they asked Mr Wilders if this was a serious proposal. For instance, would he include other types of head covering in the tax? And how about orthodox Christian women who wear a headscarf quite similar to the Muslim version?

    n reaction, Mr Wilders said he would actually prefer to ban the headscarf altogether, but that appeared to be legally impossible. He would not tax the Christian form of the headscarf, but he did not say how policy would make that distinction.

    Mr Wilders has acquired a reputation for making shocking statements during general debates. Two years ago, he called for the banning the Muslim holy book, the Quran. Last year, he warned that Muslims were colonising the Netherlands. Last spring, he and his entire fraction walked out at the beginning of a debate.

    The government still has to defend its new budget as part of the general debates. But in an unusual move, Mr Wilders has already announced that he plans to submit another motion of no-confidence in the entire cabinet. That will be the Freedom Party’s eighth motion of no-confidence.

    Stop the hatred

    -JSOP

  146. Ali Sina claiming he is greater then God is tempting fate

    -JSOP

  147. ''Yes, it's a perfect example because it fits your pattern of denying reality. ''

    Not a reality others can make the same comment about your sect (Mormons)

    A extremist who has already made up there mind and hates Muslims and Islam will not listen to the facts when they are presented to them in any form as A Neo Nazis would not accept anything good about a Jew or Negro

    Your claims about the Quran should be banned in countries and just as dangerous as a gun proves your hatred for Islam and how little you understand about it (On the lines of the radcial Geert Wilders

    Using Google to post half quotes and claiming to be knowledgeable does not make you knowledgeable and just shows how little you really know or understand Islam

    -JSOP

  148. Did you even understand What I was saying ? I am clearly saying watch all news not just one country nothing deficient in my intelligence about that statement.

    The real question is do you even know what that means it is not about putting woman down (5th-6th century)

    Quite amusing seeing those putting meaning of words from the 5th and 6th century with present day century meaning (words like terrorist,Mafia Communist and Nazis

    Those who do not know what it means automatically relate to the new term you are claiming it to be thus think what your ridiculous claim is true

    -JSOP

  149. Again you claim to know what shirk is when you have no idea what it is or what the Shia and sufi sects do.

    -JSOP

  150. It is very Christain like to hate the sin and love the sinner. To hate Islam and to love muslims.

  151. I guess all sex is irresponible then, well sinse it is just a biological duty (so to speak) which should bring no pleasure for the individuals as of course that would be a sin. And as his holiness the pope says yes aids is bad, but condoms are worse. I hope by western values you don`t mean the values of a book written by savages from the middle east 4000 years ago.

  152. Bring your proof. You are just full of sophistry and no one is buying your smoke and mirrors game.

  153. "not based on facts"

    I already have seen your facts: 1+2=4

    "When many Muslims have proven what you and other have said as wrong"

    Bring your proofs. I want to see how you explain that Allah and Muhammad are wrong.

  154. "No Muslim ever made this claim that is a very poor example"

    Yes, it's a perfect example because it fits your pattern of denying reality.

    "You comments and others prove other wise"

    Bring your proofs. I want to see them.

    "You know the answer to this question I have said why and many other Muslims have also"

    English translation: Truth hurts and you don't want to hear it.

  155. What hatred is being incited? You bring accusations without substance.

  156. Clearly you are the one deficient in intelligence.

    Are you a woman?

    Do you know where that verse is?

    Do you believe it?

    Will you renounce all such sociopathic verses in the Quran?

  157. Then you tell us what those verses really mean. Beware of bidah.

  158. "perversion of the Holy text"

    Perversion is changing. Like you change my words. We do not change the words of the Quran and Sunna. We quote them. Your own texts condemn your arguments.

    "Also you would give that ''$50.000 (US)'' if you were proven wrong (by a independent person/persons) you would give the money not to the person but to a Muslim Charity to help house Muslims or give them fresh water in the poorer areas of the would."

    If you win, the money is yours to do what you want with it. These sites will also be shut down, and Dr. Sina will publicly declare that Islam is a true religion.

  159. "Again preaching your hatred for Islam"

    Your rhetorical style consists of blind accusations with no substance, content, or proofs.

    "impose there views on others"

    Who said that? Did I not speak for defense of the First Amendment freedom of speech? It sounds more like you are trying to impose your view on us.

  160. Yes it is socially irresponsible. While they indulge themselves in hedonism Muslim demographics are overwhelming us while the homosexuals could take their place in legitimate society and raise families with the values Western civilization.

  161. Their are much more important things to be concerned about than the gays. And no homosexuality is not "socially irresponsible behavior" what consenting adults do in their beds is none of your business.

  162. Is it irrational to fear bin laden(i mean when he was alive)? Now i don`t hate or dislike any "muslim" that believes i can have equal rights, i can critise islam and draw cartoons of muhammed or burn a koran (as long as i own it) if i want. I can belive in anything i want (or nothing),as long as it harm no one else. I can eat and drink what i like and can have sex with any fellow consenting adult. If you agree with all that then i have no problem with you.

  163. Islamophobia is a term of Muslim intimidation to silence its critics.

    It is also a politically charged word which uses the tactic of one-upsmanship posturing to establish a position of superiority over its critics. It is borrowed from the gay rights slogan of homophobia which uses the same tactic of intimidation and posturing to promote its cause mainstreaming unnatural, hedonistic and socially irresponsible behavior. I find it ironic that Muslims who claim to hate homosexuality so much resort to its efforts to mainstream its own sociopathic behavior.

    The words use the posturing tactic of assuming a position of superiority by painting the critic as being in a position of possessing an irrational disorder and painting themselves as being in the superior position of being psychologically sound. Again this is ironic considering the mental disorders diagnosed by Dr. Sina from the evidence in the Quran and Sunna. Read Dr. Sina's book for the full story. If you don't want to buy it, he will send you a copy in email.

    Islamophobia is also a tool of the OIC in its drive with the UN to eliminate the US Constitution's First Amendment Rights to free speech.

  164. No these false sects have introduced bidah, this is a form of shirk the punisment of which is eternal hellfire.

  165. "Are you not guilty of forcing your views onto me right now ?" Am i forcing you to read my comments or visit this site?

    "As I have said before if Islam was so bad and evil why would so many have to half quote, lie, quote bias sources, out of context quotes twist a meaning not use all hadith ect ." Examples?

  166. "Same others are doing on here" You are making a wrong comparison, if during world war 2 britain said all nazis are evil that`s true, but what would not be true, would be to say all germans are nazis. Likewise it may have been true that many blacks believed in driving the whites into the forest, but that does not mean all blacks believe it. Like before when i said palestian arabs hate the jews not because they are arab but becuse of what they believe. And of course not all palestian arabs believe that the jews in palestine should be killed or made second class citizens.

    "You say by the actions but you and others are judging someone purely on being a Muslims" Muslims are not a ethic group they are believers in a ideology. Just like nazis are not a ethic group.

  167. Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims The term dates back to the late 1980s or early 1990s, but came into common usage after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States.

    In 1997, the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the "dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims," stating that it also refers to the practice of discriminating against Muslims by excluding them from the economic, social, and public life of the nation. It includes the perception that Islam has no values in common with other cultures, is inferior to the West and is a violent political ideology rather than a religion.

    -JSOP

  168. Again preaching your hatred for Islam
    They are completely different not the same again you do not understand at all

    The world doesn't need warmongering fantastic thinking they have the right to impose there views on others

    You will not succeed in doing this as the only people who think this way are the likes of the extremist, Neo Nazis, islamophobia, Geert Wilders, Fjordman and Anders Behring Breivik

    -JSOP

  169. ''You simply dislike the facts and refuse to accept them. Muslims constantly assert that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but insistence and stubbornness to not make it so. ''

    Saying something is based on the Quran and it being based on the Quran is totally different

    You don't understand what I am saying if anyone hates Muslims they use only parts of the Quran to justify that hatred they already had before even reading it and leave out parts of quotes or only post what they choose

    ''But it's also not what he said. Read here: http://alisina.org/about/ ''

    He and others have contradicted this in the comments

    JSOP

  170. The claim you are revealing Islam is a claim nothing more and that claim is based on quotes which are half,out of context, twist of the text and bias Scholars and anyone who does not agree is a terrorist or brainwashed

    Have you even looked into the articles you will see they are not based on facts

    ''You are trying to use the typical Muslim response of denial and reinterpretation to block criticism as explained in this video on Quran error: ''

    You know this because I am not believing what you are saying right ?
    When many Muslims have proven what you and other have said as wrong

    Psychology 101 of trying to analysis me

    -JSOP

  171. ''Any Muslim who claims that 1+2=4 is brainwashed''

    No Muslim ever made this claim that is a very poor example

    Muslims are stating where you are wrong and you are calling them names and putting them done that is not good at all no matter what religion you are

    Again you missed my point of my post and lack the understanding of what hatred in the heart means

    ''How many times have I told you we don't hate Muslims? ''

    You comments and others prove other wise

    ''Why do you feel insulted by a discussion of a problem? ''

    You know the answer to this question I have said why and many other Muslims have also

    -JSOP

  172. ''This shows you have no concept of professionalism and how it operates.''

    Another fact less assumption

    Read my post again and try to understand it

    -JSOP

  173. Not assumptions. There is plenty of analysis. Do your homework.

    There is an introductory article here, but for more thorough analysis, you will have to do deeper reading. Google is your friend. http://alisina.org/islam-is-fascism/

    Actually, there is also another article here about a book that on the subject:

    Is Islam a Religion? http://alisina.org/is-islam-a-religion/

    Allah Is Dead: Why Islam is Not a Religion http://www.amazon.com/Allah-Dead-Why-Islam-Religi

    "You said in another comment that not all are terrorist yet you say if they are not terrorist they are not Muslims you contradicted yourself again"

    Not what I said. You seem to have a limited capacity for nuance and reading comprehension.

  174. Not the same as Communism or Nazis not a fact just an assumption (relating it to something bad thus becoming bad)

    Read the History of Islam (Shia Sunni Sufi ect)

    About the freeing of slaves ect

    The verses were only half quotes and were taken out of context again read my reply to them and read not a bias Quran

    You seem to not understand what I am say, you and others are guilty of trying to enforce your bias views onto me and when I don't agree you name call and try and put me down.

    Straight to the Muslims are terrorist, the problem with some in the west is that hatred for others who are different is instilled on them from birth, be it the Muslims, all of Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese or anyone who doesn't look or agree with what you have you say (Not all in the west are guilty of this of cause )

    Spend time in the countries and it's country rather then believing bias text wrote by those who hate Muslims

    You said in another comment that not all are terrorist yet you say if they are not terrorist they are not Muslims you contradicted yourself again

    You seem to have this idea in your head that Muslims invented terrorism.
    Terrorism is not limited to one religion look at the history of terrorism before you accuse another

    JSOP

  175. We read the Quran and Sunna. Dr. Sina's work is all documented and referenced to Quran and Sunna. The scholarly quality of his work is sufficient for a Master's Thesis or Doctoral Dissertation. You simply dislike the facts and refuse to accept them. Muslims constantly assert that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but insistence and stubbornness to not make it so.

    Raymond Ibrahim recently put it best here in a recent dialog with the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Sheikh Gomaa:

    "the time for sophistry, apologetics, euphemisms, and projections is past. We live in an age where the historic, doctrinal, and contemporary facts of Islam are increasingly exposed for the world to see, in part thanks to the Internet and satellite, which defy censorship. Operating according to this fact — that is, respecting people’s intelligence — is the first step to meaningful dialogue." http://pjmedia.com/blog/grand-mufti-distorts-word

    "This is saying all Moderate Muslims are terrorist this is a lie"

    But it's also not what he said. Read here:
    http://alisina.org/about/

    I don't know you well enough to know if you are lying or making legitimate mistakes, so I give you the benefit of the doubt. But be more careful in your analysis before you write.

  176. There is no twisting. The Quran and Sunna say what they say. Islam is not a philosophical system that needs exegesis through interpretation. Islam is a legal system that lends itself to classification of beliefs through jurisprudence and sharia, hence the existence of the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence. This site does not interpret Islam, it reveals Islam. In every article you will find things you didn't know about Islam. You are trying to use the typical Muslim response of denial and reinterpretation to block criticism as explained in this video on Quran error:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhHDgKnE9r0

  177. Any Muslim who claims that 1+2=4 is brainwashed and has some kind of cognitive disorder. Usually we are more kind about it and give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they just haven't read their books and don't know, as we have said about you.

    "Another insult by John"

    Why do you feel insulted by a discussion of a problem?

    "Contradicting your Christians believes"

    Which belief am I contradicting?

    "your baseless hatred on Muslims"

    How many times have I told you we don't hate Muslims?

    "that much hatred in there heart"

    Why do you think I have hatred in my heart? How would you gauge it? Do you have a meter?

  178. "This shows you are purely informed by one sided news"

    This shows you have no concept of professionalism and how it operates.

  179. You have no basis to evaluate my faith or morals.

  180. You are taking all of what he claimed as fact without first checking it yourself

    Look and read what he is doing rather then what he is telling you he is doing

    What he is doing is far different then what is claims he is doing basic facts

    Don't let yourself be lead down the garden path and be another number in his hatred for Muslims and Islam

    ''He says moderate Muslims become terrorists as they draw near to the Quran, as did Osama bin Laden, Qutb, and etc.''

    A lie if everyome took this as fact it would cause mass panic on Muslims in robes and would lead to pursocution on Muslims who are just innocently going about there lives (just like those inciting hatred on those in full coverings)

    This is saying all Moderate Muslims are terrorist this is a lie and slander to all Muslims and warranting them to be treated like potential terrorist and have there rights violated for no good reason thus going against your own human rights in countries and International Law (This is a terrorist act)

    If Muslims said this to Christians or others they would never hear the end of it

    -JSOP

  181. Islam must be stopped like we stopped Nazism and Communism. Muslims and dhimmis must be freed from oppression and violence.

    Our Church is the internationally recognized leader in promoting family values, though activism, media ads, and teaching.
    http://lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng

  182. "Just as if someone criticise the Mormons and tried to pass there bias views and lies as facts (Other Christian sects)"

    I'm quite familiar with the anti-Mormon activists and arguments. They suffer the same problem as Muslims visiting this site – lack of a fact-based analysis.

    "You have your belief's and Muslims have there's"

    This comment from Islam's early, peaceful Mecca phase agrees with our belief here:

    Articles of Faith
    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

    The problem is that Islam is not a peaceful belief system. As long as the Quran is accepted as the word of God it will inspire people to become terrorists. Terrorists get their inspiration from the Quran and Sunna. There is no denying this. If Islam were peaceful, we would tolerate it the same way we tolerate virgin indigenous tribes who still worship trees and rocks. Quaint, but harmless. Furthermore, Islam is not really a religion. We don't care how you worship, but politically Islam has more in common with Nazism and Communism. I wasn't around in WWII, but I have Church materials speaking out against Communism.

    "who already hates them and made up there mind before learning"

    Straw man is inapplicable because you are assuming we hate and you are assuming we made up our minds without learning. From our perspective it is you who have made up your minds without learning. You are Muslim by accident of birth. What if you were born in a Buddhist family? or a Hindu Family? Or a Confucian family? or a Christian family? or a Jewish family? Would you be so certain your belief is true like you are certain Islam is true? You are only defending your family and community like a football fan who loves his home team.

    "I see a bit of a double standard as a Mormon you were were persecuted why join in on persecuting Muslims"

    Count the Mormon deaths as they were driven from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois to Utah. Missouri issued an extermination order against Mormons. You could follow the trail of blood in the snow when they were driven from Missouri. How is anything I have said or done to you equivalent to this kind of persecution? I find it has much more in common with the way Muslims treat Christians and Jews in Muslim countries, as well as the way they treat their own apostates, if you read the news at all. We are here to save Muslims, not kill them. Read Dr. Sina's book. He lists three scenarios for resolving the situation. Helping Muslims is the only one that is peaceful. We are here to resolve this problem peacefully and help free people from oppression and danger.

    "Christians, Jews and Muslims should not be harming each other no matter the sect"

    That's a beautiful sentiment that I endorse whole-heartedly 100%. Unfortunately your books do not support that view. I believe several people here have showed you examples of such verses. Either you believe those verses and you do believe in harming non-Muslims, and you support terrorism, or you do not believe the Quran and Sunna and you are not really a Muslim. Or you might be a Muslim reformer. If so, how many followers do you have, and where is your declaration of reform?

  183. Another insult by John do you have no shame ?

    Contradicting your Christians believes for your own personal bias again?

    You automatically say a Musim who doesn't agree with your ''truth''with saying they are brain washed

    Can I use your logic and say that because you do not agree with what I say you were brain washed with Muslim hatred which has been around since the crusades (basic fact)

    Anyone who doesn't agree with your baseless hatred on Muslims your call them names,incite hatred, lie, twist what they said and try and justify doing anything to them.

    This is extremest behaviour and I fell sorry for someone with that much hatred in there heart for no reason what so ever
    Also how you are bring all of the good Christians and Jews out there in the world who are not like this to shame

    -JSOP

  184. There is no need for a Judge. Reason is the judge. People who use reason can change their minds when they see their oponent’s argument is more reasonable.

    In our disucssion, you say the Quran must be miraculous because so many people have memorized it. I heard this fallacy from other Muslims and it really amazes me that these people think this way. If you use logic you will not even ask such thing. Muslims are told to memorize the Quran because it is thavab and they even beat their children to do it. So the poor child memoraizes this book without understanding it. Even his teacher does not understand it. This is acme of stupidity. People of other faiths are not as stupid to do such thing. They believe their holy book is a message from God and hence they want to understand it not memorize it.

    It really is surprizing that a simple thing like this can boggle a Muslim to such an extent. The reason is that Muslims look at everything through the mirror of Islam. This mirror warps everything they see.

    The reason so many Muslims have memorized the Quran is not because this book is miraculous. The reason is that they are so foolish that they think that by memorizing it they will go to heaven. If you can’t accept such a simple thing, then I am afraid you are wasting your time in this forum.

  185. Ali Sina said : ''Zakir Naik has memorized a lot of the Quran, but that man has zero understanding of that book. Any person who understands the Quran will understand that this book is raving of a mad man. ''

    You know this how, because he is not making the same claims and agreeing with you he is automatically wrong ?

    What you are parching is a theory nothing more not fact or absolute (Many do not agree with you and others like you

    Those who do agree with you are on the fringe of society and are backed by other extremist and those with islamophobia looking to hurt Muslims for being Muslims

    All my life I read the Quran without understanding it. But when I sat down with dictionary and studied it the way I study any scientific or philosophical book I realized it is rubish. If Muslims did what I did, no one will remain a believer. ''

    I find this hard to believe as you are missing alot of understanding and facts about the Quran, Hadith. (Half quoting and twisting of facts is not a scholar)

    -JSOP

  186. No very Christian to jump to a conclusion and incite hatred on another without the facts

    -JSOP

  187. ''independent''

    -JSOP

  188. ''Wake up and look at the news.''

    You do realise that in a western world they would only show the bad of there enemy's and not the good thus stirring up the masses to fight there current enemy
    Read interdependent and all of the countries news (you can find translations online )

    (Basic Art of War)

    This shows you are purely informed by one sided news

    Some of your comments are contradicting to your own faith

    Every country has a form of bad people basic human fact

    -JSOP

  189. Not everything is measured on this

    Rich in buildings but not in faith or morals

    -JSOP

  190. To add to my last comment
    Give to the poor but claim no merit, Give to others for the good deed not to expect a reward or any thanks

    -JSOP

  191. Don't you think your time would be better spent in trying to bring back family values in the Christian faiths rather then inciting hatred on others.

    Improve your land and faith before others
    )You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44] )

    Helping your countryman and woman who are staving
    Helping those with out water

    There are so many other things to do with your time

    Why lie and incite hatred on Islam?

    I doubt your motive is to help Islam

    -JSOP

  192. You seem to not understand what they said about the Negroes

    They said:
    They were trying to take all of the jobs
    Trying to take over the land
    Trying to somehow take over the world and push the ''honest'' white folk out into the forest
    Insulted them encouraging others to treat them in a humiliating way
    Used propaganda and calling all Negroes violent and when a Negro defended themselves and a few held rallies they were beaten and praised themselves how they stopped the violent savage animals
    Called white people who did not agree with what they were doing a race traitor and hung them with Negroes

    They called then violent, lie about them and treated them less then animals then when some acted violently in rallies or defended themselves they said '' see I told you they were violent savages'' and used this to try and back up there lies they said

    Same others are doing on here

    You say by the actions but you and others are judging someone purely on being a Muslims this is noticeable by all the hateful ways you all treat Muslims and lie about all of the sects (Ali Sina saying to treat them in a humiliating and demeaning way ect) double standard.

    Are you not guilty of forcing your views onto me right now ?

    Or can you not be guilty because you are not Muslim.

    This violent and hatred in your heart and also in others in not healthy

    As I have said before if Islam was so bad and evil why would so many have to half quote, lie, quote bias sources, out of context quotes twist a meaning not use all hadith ect .

    -JSOP

  193. Now I am damn sure that nobody in the world can defeat anybody in a debate if there is no judge between them.

  194. Just as if someone criticise the Mormons and tried to pass there bias views and lies as facts (Other Christian sects)

    You have your belief's and Muslims have there's

    Would you like some other Christian making claims which you know are not truth and have other Christians only agree because they are a different sect who already hates them and made up there mind before learning ?

    Many Christians do not agree with Mormons but they are tolerated

    I see a bit of a double standard as a Mormon you were were persecuted why join in on persecuting Muslims

    Read your text you cannot justify it

    Christians, Jews and Muslims should not be harming each other no matter the sect

    -JSOP

  195. You are guilty of this not me as I have pointed out to you and others you are only posting the violent quotes or half quotes of the Quran, Hadiths (only posting one sects hadith) Scholars and not showing all of the Quran in what it really says

    Twisting the Good into bad to justify your hatred you have already made up your mind so no matter the evidence which is showed to you and others you would not accept or will twist it into a different meaning all together ( to trick others into believe a lie and your bias views )

    Hatred blinds you from the truth

    JSOP

  196. Another Muslim explained about the 73 spit hadith

    Twisting to find an excuse to harm Shia just as Shia use this to hurt the Sufi

    Not all stay in hell as the other Muslims said and what the Hadith says again only quoting one quote rather then all

    All are Muslims in the end

    Read all of the hadiths,holy text and report the whole truth

    -JSOP

  197. (continued from above)

    Alma 32
    26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

    27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

    28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

    29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

    30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

    31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

    32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

    33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

    34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

    35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

    36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

    37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

    38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

    39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

    40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

    41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

    42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

    43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32.26-43?lang

  198. Thanks for your comment. Personal spiritual evidence is different from an advocate's intellectual thought or statement.

    It is derived from a personal spiritual experiment. The relationship between faith and knowledge is also described in the third selection:

    John 7:17
    17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/7.17?lang=eng#1

    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=e

    (3rd passage continued below)

  199. "But we have personal spiritual evidence even if it is not acknowledged as scientific evidence." I don`t know what "personal spiritual evidence" means its just meaningless to me. Though if personal experiences was evidence we would have to admit their is "evidence" that islam,buddism,judaism,atheism etc are true. Which of course cannot be the case as they all contridict each other.

    "Then there is the empirical evidence of the good fruits and powerful, productive civilization produced by the adherents of the good teachings." No one deny`s that the good humanistic teachings of religions and philosophies produce good fruits though that has nothing to do with the truth of certain religious claims. Indeed when a society starts following religious laws the more backward they become. I wonder what would happen if israel became a theocracy based on biblical law?

  200. Wikipedia is pretty dhimmified on Islam. Things critical of Islam have to go into separate Criticism of Islam articles. I imagine this is related to their general religion policy in which things are told from the perspective of believers. Hence they don't write that Muhammad wrote the Quran, but rather that Muhammad received the Quran from Gabriel.

  201. There was a recent statement from a Muslim leader expressing concern for the millions who are leaving Islam. That was the first time I had heard your estimate independently confirmed.

  202. People who utilize their time doing productive things like science rather than sociopathic things like Muslim practices will prosper. The phenomenon is the same whether you want to use secular or religious vocabulary to describe it.

    There is also a sociopathic aspect to Quran memorizing as it is largely mandated by imams as a power and control issue rather than a religious issue. Hence the FFI article on the broken leg.

  203. I was thinking more of the one that says, "Riiiiiiiaaaaa"

    "I am pretty sure when they are born they are alright, but the Islamic indoctration kills the brain cells !!"

    Scientific research has shown that you can take a baby born anywhere in the world and raise it anywhere else in the world and it will grow up the same as anyone born there, so yes, a baby is truly a citizen of the world until it becomes localized through the local upbringing.

  204. "Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion. "

    You misstate my point. Quran memorizing is not related to righteousness. The Quran teaches wickedness, so the cycle I described also accounts for Muslim backwardness. My statement also agrees with Dr. Sina's point that Quran memorizing diverts human resources away from science and its attendant prosperity.

    For all the West's problems, clearly social upheaval is far worse in Muslim countries. Asia has peace as long as you exclude Muslim countries from the tally. Wake up and look at the news.

  205. Prosperity has nothing to do with believing in God. In fact I would argue that when people go after religion more than science they become empoverished.

    John is speaking from the point of view of a religious person. But facts are different. If you ignore scince as Muslims have done, you become a backward country.

  206. Anyone can be misguided. But most of those who change their religion to Islam leave Islam withing a couple of years and become ardent critics and opponents of Islam. Also there are millions of intellectuals who were born in Islam and leave it after they learn more about it. More people are leaving Islam than converting to it. The problem is that you only hear the propaganda of those who convert to Islam, but they will never tell you when those very people leave it or that millions of Muslims are leaving Islam.

  207. "Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion." Religion is a broad word what does islam have in relation to hinduism, buddism or daoism virtually nothing. So yeah the more islamic a society becomes the worse it gets, while a society that becomes more humanistic (or if the dominate religion of the society is based on humanistic principles) the better it gets. For example if israel goes more towards the universal humanistic principles of judaism the better it will get, however if they start to move towards the extreme right and become more chauvinistic and "religious" it would soon become a racist, theocratic dictatorship, no better than hamas.

  208. JSOP wrote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints neither regards Muhammad as a prophet nor accepts the Qur'an as a book of scripture. However, it does respect Muhammad as one who taught moral truths which can enlighten nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals."

    The relationship between the LDS Church and Islam is a complex subject about which a book could be written. I am working on a book concerning one aspect of that, but I cannot write a book in the comments section on a website. Additionally, I am not an authorized spokesman of the Church.

    I can, however, say that while the LDS Church encourages its members to be active citizens in the community, it is non-political and does not allow any politics on Church premises.

    I can also say that the LDS Church loves all people everywhere and invites all men to come unto Christ regardless of race or creed as it is written in the Book of Mormon:

    2 Nephi 26:33
    33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

    In its relationships with non-Mormons, the Church works together with all good men everywhere to accomplish good. In terms of its relationship with Islam, the Church is a leading partner with the Red Crescent in providing humanitarian relief in disaster zones in Muslim countries.

    In terms of proselyting, LDS missionaries do not debate prospective converts about their present religion. Former Church President Gordon B. Hinckley put it as a matter of telling people that we are not here to take away the good that they have, but rather to add to what they have. Keep all the good that you have learned in your religion and come to us and let us add to it.

    This is not that different from what Ali Sina is saying. If you read his articles, you will see that he was a Muslim. His family members are Muslim, and his community was Muslim. Therefore, he says, he loves Muslims and wants to save them by freeing them from Islam. Nobody would waste their time here if they did not care about Muslims. Hate is not an interesting emotion, and no one here is interested in hate. I think you don't like the message, so you assume the messengers are hateful. That is not true.

    Comparing Ali Sina's teachings about Islam and the LDS statement, you will observe that in articles Ali Sina has written that all religions teach some good, otherwise no one would want to join. You will also note that in articles he has stated that many Muslims are good because of their basic humanity. He says moderate Muslims become terrorists as they draw near to the Quran, as did Osama bin Laden, Qutb, and etc.

  209. owh wikipedia*you can change whenever you want=bible…

  210. many priest change their religion to islam..

    how about you?

  211. Keyboard is fine :D , but my head was spinning when the memorization of something is presented as the proof of being from God. Don't understand how muslim brain works. I am pretty sure when they are born they are alright, but the Islamic indoctration kills the brain cells !!

  212. Dear John K,

    Ali Sina Said, ""All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran?"""

    You said"" Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity.""

    But earlier you said in a comment http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/#IDComment2… that

    """The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.""

    Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion.

    You will now try to reply that the west's social peace is better than the muslims but we know about the abortion, priest and pastors adultery / sexual abuse, abortion, Gays, Lesbians, Rapes, Nudity, Porn, Prostitution, Alcoholism, Racism, Crusades, WW1, WWII, Colonialism, Hitler,Holocaust, Mussolini, Killing French revolution, Israels occupation, Bosnia, Iraqs WMD, Afghanistan, …………

    So recent survey revealed that Asia's people are in more peace than any other continent.

  213. Right John, I agree they stress so much on atributes that they don't pay attention to attitude.

  214. Dear john K,

    Ali Sina said "" All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity.

    And you said ""Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity.

    And you said earlier in your comment in http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/#IDComment2

    ""The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.""

    This is contradicting John K.

    In your reply you will try to say that West Social status is better then any muslim country. but We know the statistics of human rights regarding abortion, rape, killing, Gay, Lesbian, Hitler,Holocust, Musolini, Bosnia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq (WMD), West's colonialism, and many more. Muslims becomes defender of their right from 1967 and become terrorists???

  215. Dear John K,

    Ali Sina Said,""What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity. ""
    And you said ""
    Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries""

    And you also said,""

  216. "Dr Sina has understanding and Wisdom comes from God when asked for wisdom."

    Christ came to save mankind from sin and death. Dr. Sina is doing the same for Muslims, which makes him an ally in the work.

  217. "You have to detox yourself a bit from this lie in order to be able to digest what I say."

    I have given this a lot of thought lately as I have considered recent posts from the King of Abuse using the 99 (depraved) Names of Allah, topijerami and JSOP.

    It makes me realize that the hard part about Islam education is not acquiring the knowledge required to understand the issues, but rather dealing with these intoxicated Muslims who are so brainwashed by their communities and upbringing that they don't know what their books say and why they are wrong. Yet they are the most belligerent in asserting that they know everything and that we are ignorant. I'm not sure what is the best way to break through this and help them.

  218. Well said Ria. [What happened? Keyboard stuck?! ] :D

  219. Dear Dr Ali Sina, you said, "I know if I were God I would listen to people's prayers. I would never allow suffering and injustice to go on for so long. So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him."

    Come on, you don't even believe in Him and neither do you acknowledge His Sovereignty and you are talking like an immature child who expect God to answer your every whims and fancies without checking yourself if you have met all the requirements that He has set which are deem fit for Him to answer your prayers.

    I think that before you start to accuse my loving Creator God, it would be wise of you to determine who started all these miseries and what is the source that caused all these sufferings, sorrows and great injustice that are happening in the world today. Only then, will you realize that God is kind, merciful and good. Come to the cross at Calvary, where Jesus is crucified. This is the place where Heaven and Earth meet and all burdens are lifted. I hope that you'll be ministered by this song.

    [youtube hCxAksB6H7w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCxAksB6H7w youtube]

  220. "These comments were said to the Negroes also." Do the blacks believe in a racist and facist idea? No we should not judge people by what they born as, but what they grow to become it`s our actions that show who we truly our. So are you staying with muhammed and his filth or not? Remember a black cannot become white but a muslim can leave islam.

  221. Read the whole chapter then, see for yourself.

  222. "How can I hate something that does not exist." Well i hate God and what i mean by that is i hate the idea of God, the idea that their is a celestial dictatorship which is the root of all totalitarian ideology and someone we must both love and fear the height of sadomasochism.

  223. "Learn please" I wish you would learn by reading the koran and hadiths and not just copy and pasting from wikipedia articles.

  224. ."Shia Muslims have been listed along with "heretics,"
    Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan said, The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said’: ‘Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise.’

    "America, and Israel"
    O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

    "Both contradicting Islam" Everything bin laden said is in agrement with islam.

  225. "Bin Laden was anti-Semitic, and delivered warnings against alleged Jewish conspiracies:" So is koran and hadith

    And well ye knew those amongst you [Children of Israel] who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." Koran 2:65

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
    Sahih Muslim 41:6985

  226. "Bin Laden's ideology included the idea that innocent civilians, including women and children, are legitimate targets of jihad" Bin laden was right this was an example from muhammed

    The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

  227. “Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion!“

    Some did, but the smart ones understood that the Bible is a message and a message has to be understood and not memorized. How many of those who have memorized the Quran know what is in it? You can teach a parrot to memorize sentences and repeat them. One guy hat taught his parrot words of insult. Does this mean there is some special power in those insults?”

    Thousands of Muslims but not a single Muslim understands this book. If they did they would leave Islam in a heart beat. This is not a bluff. I challenge any Muslim to a debate and will show him that he has no understanding of the Quran. Zakir Naik has memorized a lot of the Quran, but that man has zero understanding of that book. Any person who understands the Quran will understand that this book is raving of a mad man. All my life I read the Quran without understanding it. But when I sat down with dictionary and studied it the way I study any scientific or philosophical book I realized it is rubish. If Muslims did what I did, no one will remain a believer.

    “Cant digest your explanation, impossible for me.”
    I am sorry I can’t help you there. My explanation is clear to rational people. Your brain has been on Islam for too long. You have ot detox yourself a bit from this lie in order to be able to digest what I say.

  228. *Memorizing something can be done for any number of reason, but that is not a proof of from God.

    **Many understand Quran, thatz why many are leaving Islam

    ***//No need to criticise a Holy Book and make wrong claims about the Quran before fully understanding what the Quran means//

    ***I was born with an ability called critical thinking, can't help it.

  229. I did not say I am anything but a human. But still I am better than God. Most humans are better than God. That is because God in general and specailly Allah is the figment of the mind of a narcissist. So he is a narcissist. Most people are not. We have our flaws but we have empathy for other people and some even care about animals. I belong to the latter group. I am afraid God lacks many good qualities that we humans possess.

    I also don’t hate God. God does not exist. How can I hate something that does not exist. I do hate Muhammad though. Sometimes I wish I was there when he went to the top of mount Noor and pushed him over the clifs when he wanted to commist suicide and end his despicable life. Ah! the world would have been a much better place. Millions of lives would not have gone in waste and billions of souls would have lived happier. But that is only wishful thinking, What I can do is expose him, show to the world that he was a liar and save Muslims from following that monster.

    I am very grateful for what I have, I am grateful to the universe. I am generally content and happy.

  230. Thus making only Muslims look like monsters if Muslims were this why would you all have to try so hard and have to do this and lie ?

    -JSOP

  231. Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Merciful"

    One trait I see on this site is they never state what was before or after thus you see the one quote out of context.

    -JSOP

  232. "That is a perversion just like if any religious or extreme group did this they are the same" How have they perverted these verse?

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. (And this is what muhammed means by oppression, teaching other religions and philosophies other than islam).

  233. '' Then that means you believe i should convert or die which is what the koran says should happen to the pagans then i will fight against you''

    Never said that (do not tell stories) and you lack the understanding of the Quran

    -JSOP

  234. Choudary receives little support from the mainstream UK Muslim population and has been largely criticised in the media. one quote

    Bin Laden's ideology included the idea that innocent civilians, including women and children, are legitimate targets of jihad. Bin Laden was anti-Semitic, and delivered warnings against alleged Jewish conspiracies: "These Jews are masters of usury and leaders in treachery. They will leave you nothing, either in this world or the next." Shia Muslims have been listed along with "heretics, America, and Israel" as the four principal "enemies of Islam" at ideology classes of bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization.

    Both contradicting Islam

    Learn please

    -JSOP

  235. This was a quote after the ones you quoted it was talking of those who corrupted the teaching

    You quoted 3:19 and 3:85

    I quoted 3:113, 3:114 and 3:199

    They are after what you said you did not quote what was between 3:19 and
    3:114 or after

    Leaving out a lot of text.

    -JSOP

  236. Read and understand those quotes fully

    -JSOP

  237. "All Muslims (extremist only agree) no not agree with what he did this is another comment which is false" Show me one thing that choudary has claimed islam teaches when infact it does not. Everything Choudary says is backed up in the islamic texts.

    "I do not care if you respect me or not, you are truly miss guided and your hatred for someone being a Muslim is very clear (also anyone religions or anyone who doesn't agree with you) in how you treat them and the way you state wrong facts about them" You can believe in any nonsense you want just don`t force it on me. You can believe in gods, jinns and afterlife but if you believe that the koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe and muhammed is the best example of human conduct for all times and places. Then that means you believe i should convert or die which is what the koran says should happen to the pagans then i will fight against you.

  238. Killing of innocents is one as I stated they some up ''they did this thus not innocent''

    That is a perversion just like if any religious or extreme group did this they are the same

    Listen to what am I saying rather then sticking your fingers in your ears

    -JSOP

  239. "Not the text that is causing the problem it is the extremist view they are trying to justify (not remembering Be moderate in thy pace [31/19])" That`s exactly the problem the text is violent and extremist what has hamas said and done that is against the teachings of islam?

  240. Read,learn, and visit those ''bad lands rather then claiming Knowledge you do not have about the subject

    You seem to not see all of the corrupt lewd and hateful behaviour committed. No country is an absolute freedom

    But you missed what I was saying again

    You just hate Muslims that is all and trying to fine any excuse to hate them.
    this comment proves this

    These comments were said to the Negroes also.

    If you do not have complete knowledge about anything, better keep your mouth shut. You might think that speaking about something without full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave consequences
    [24/15-16]

    -JSOP

  241. These verses contridict these

    Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. 3:19

    If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). Koran 3:85

    Is this a error in the perfect book from Allah?

  242. "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Holy Quran 3:199)

    Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." (Holy Quran 3:113-114)"

  243. ''The muslims who honestly say what islam teaches are the likes of Bin Laden and Anjem choudary i have more respect for them than you, at least i know where i stand with them. ''

    All Muslims (extremist only agree) no not agree with what he did this is another comment which is false

    I do not care if you respect me or not, you are truly miss guided and your hatred for someone being a Muslim is very clear (also anyone religions or anyone who doesn't agree with you) in how you treat them and the way you state wrong facts about them

    One who hates will never think clearly

    What do i care about hurting your feelings for? Islam is insulting to me but but do you care?

    That is surely showing your human rights claim and how you said you have ''freedom''

    ''So all philosophies and religions have some good and useful teachings but in islam their are so few they are virtually non existent.''

    Read and learn about them from the source not from one which is corrupted

    -JSOP

  244. You seem to not understand what I am saying they are using the Quran to justify that violence

    Not the text that is causing the problem it is the extremist view they are trying to justify (not remembering Be moderate in thy pace [31/19])

    Plain and simple

    Hope this cleared up what I was saying you need to realise that 99% of Muslim are not violent

    Do not by all of scare tactics by others

    Good and bad in everyone ( Everyone has a jihad between doing good or bad things)

    -JSOP

  245. "This hatred for Muslims and those who are religious is violating there rights thus you are contradicting yourself." Well its my right to defend myself, if you want to live in non-muslim countries you will be treated like a kaffir would under shariah or in other words you will no rights whatsoever and if you don’t like it you can go to the lands conquered by islam and establish a islamic state their, and any non-muslim that wants to live in it can if they want to live with no rights and if they want to leave they should be able to. In my view we should have a pact with the islamic world, if you leave our countries and don`t attack us then we will leave you alone to practice your religion in peace in your caliphate.

  246. "You are all not the pilers of human rights and freedom just look at all the other countries you live in and what they get up to and state it is for ''freedom'' also look at home rather then abroad" What is this nonsense, in the west you can say and do what you want as long is it harms no one else. Can you do that in countries ruled by shariah? Has Noam Chomsky being executed or persecuted by the US government for his views? But we all know what Muhammad said should happen to anyone that criticises him execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land.

  247. "When a Muslims does say what it teaches you all state they are lying you only accept comments from those in other religions hating Islam or from a ''ex Muslim '' who did not get all of there prayers answered" The muslims who honestly say what islam teaches are the likes of Bin Laden and Anjem choudary i have more respect for them than you, at least i know where i stand with them.

    "Muslims is lying or ignorant either way insulting then person." What do i care about hurting your feelings for? Islam is insulting to me but but do you care?

    "If you all were such honest humanitarians you would state all the bad and good of Islam not just the bad or twist a good into a bad" So all philosophies and religions have some good and useful teachings but in islam their are so few they are virtually non existent.

  248. "Extremist groups do not represent any religion as the Majority of Muslims Christians and Jews are not Terrorist at all read the facts (1% out of 100 of Muslims 99% are not terrorist and 1% are that makes 1% representing all of the other 99% who are innocent people going about there normal lives ) This is not logic at all" I am not talking about how many muslims are terrorists, i am talking about what the islamic texts say. Hamas for example if you read their manifesto have many quotes from the koran and their ideology is islam or as they say "Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution."

  249. Memorising the Quran was done for many reasons one example is if it was ever burned or someone tried to pervert it

    Many do understand all of the Quran, memorise the Quran, Hadith and the 99 names of Allah.

    No need to criticise a Holy Book and make wrong claims about the Quran before fully understanding what the Quran means

    -JSOP

  250. Premise: Anything memorized is valuable.Since Devout Muslims memorize the Quran, therefor the Quran must be valuable.

    Premise: Anything not memorized is not valuable.Since Devout Christians don't memorize the Bible, therefore the Bible must not be valuable.

    *99 names of Allah is not memorzied by all muslim, therefore allah is not important.
    *Movie soings are memorized by so many muslims (moderate) and non muslims, therefor movies song are valuable and should be from God.

    What is the big deal in memorizing something like a parrot without understanding it. And it only proves Quran is so easy and trival even a kid can memorzie it and spite it like a parrot without understanding.

  251. Ali Sin said :So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him.

    No need to make that claim remember you are just a man.
    Nothing more

    You are only hating God because he was not your servant and did not give you all of your desires

    How about you try and be grateful in what you have already rather then asking for more and more

    -JSOP

  252. Not having souls comment was a perversion in the Christian faith in that era (returned in the Holy war era)

    To explain that comment

    -JSOP

  253. Not based on the Quran and Sunnah but basing it on an interpretation of his,half quotes and a perversion of the Holy text rather then all of the Quran and Sunnah

    So you are the judge of you own arguement if you were so trying to be proven wrong you would have all comments judge by an independent person/persons who was not bias for either side (panel of sorts)

    A person who hates Muslim would not suddenly overnight praise them as a extremist Muslim who hates Jews would not praise them over night basic facts

    Also you would give that ''$50.000 (US)'' if you were proven wrong (by a independent person/persons) you would give the money not to the person but to a Muslim Charity to help house Muslims or give them fresh water in the poorer areas of the would.

    If you were ''so sincere'' you would be focusing on the extreme branches of Islam perverting it for violence only not on innocent people practising there religion in peace not hurting anyone at all.

    That is warranting abuse of innocents

    This site is just as bad and any other extremist group religion or other.

    Smarter you are not as you are self proclaiming this trait

    -JSOP

  254. ''"I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments" Well if you are a muslim then you should, because they represent islam and follow it. If you don`t support hamas then why support islam which is where hamas gets their views from? ''

    Do you see your own bias it that sentence?

    Extremist groups do not represent any religion as the Majority of Muslims Christians and Jews are not Terrorist at all read the facts (1% out of 100 of Muslims 99% are not terrorist and 1% are that makes 1% representing all of the other 99% who are innocent people going about there normal lives ) This is not logic at all

    Most state these hate filled comments to justify hatred or violence on them due to there own personal hatred or for what other reason

    You seem to not understand at all my comments

    '' All muslims are bad either they are deceptive or they honestly say what islam teaches. You cannot plead ignorance the truth about islam is out their and its your duty to study the facts then make up your mind.''

    When a Muslims does say what it teaches you all state they are lying you only accept comments from those in other religions hating Islam or from a ''ex Muslim '' who did not get all of there prayers answered

    Muslims is lying or ignorant either way insulting then person.

    If you all were such honest humanitarians you would state all the bad and good of Islam not just the bad or twist a good into a bad

    ''Either you are with us, the believers in freedom, human rights and the enlightenment or you are with the likes of hamas and the rest of your muslim brothers.''''

    Bias ultimatum you know this how ?

    You are all not the pilers of human rights and freedom just look at all the other countries you live in and what they get up to and state it is for ''freedom'' also look at home rather then abroad

    Evil comes in all forms

    This hatred for Muslims and those who are religious is violating there rights thus you are contradicting yourself.

    -JSOP

  255. ''The primary purpose of religion is not to use God as a cosmic genie in a bottle to answer our every wish and command. ''

    Yes what I was trying to say

    Muslims Christians and Jews are very similer in there faith and teachings

    And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Holy Quran 3:199)

    Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." (Holy Quran 3:113-114)

    Also it states in other quotes to treat all prophets of Islam as the same be it Christian Muslim or Jew

    Some even regard Muhammad (peace be upon him) as this comment :

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints neither regards Muhammad as a prophet nor accepts the Qur'an as a book of scripture. However, it does respect Muhammad as one who taught moral truths which can enlighten nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

    So many trying to make the different religion hate each other rather then bring them together.

    JSOP

  256. Living a life or the greatness of a country is not based on how many shiny things, money and how much someone claims they have or sky high buildings the countries have.

    There are many quotes in all faiths to back this up

    Being one of faith and living a simple lifestyle is far richer.

    If all faiths lived like what there religion said rather then pervert it the world would be a far better place then it is today in all countries

    -JSOP

  257. I found quite a few in these links, but the search is cluttered with a lot of sites that teach Bible memorization, so it takes some close looking to find the discussions of people who have actually done it.
    http://tinyurl.com/75fr6em
    http://tinyurl.com/7vc9uta

    In my searching I also found several reminders that while the Greek New Testament was largely a written tradition, the Hebrew Old Testament was also an oral tradition and was memorized by many because because books had to be hand-copied in those days. I also found reminders that memorizing books, including the Bible, was more frequent in the days when books were less widely available.

    I myself read one book about the early history of my church which mentioned one person who had memorized the Bible, but you need to listen to what Ali Sina said. This is totally unimportant.

    People have differing interests and talents, and if someone has an aptitude for it, and this is what he likes to do, then more power to him, and I applaud him. The world is made up of all kinds of people with all kinds of hobbies. But to think that it is desirable for large numbers of people to do this, or to be obligated to do this is a waste of talent and human resources.

    Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity. Also, memorizing causes people to focus on words instead of the ideas communicated by those words. That is why Dr. Sina recommended reading and studying instead of memorizing.

  258. Ok very fine. Give me link / address / clue ?

  259. When I moved out of my house I expected to take care of myself. I only ask my Dad for help in case of an emergency or extraordinary circumstance.

    God primarily sent us here so we can learn to manage the world. We won't learn much if he is constantly intervening and interfering with our activities.

    The primary purpose of religion is not to use God as a cosmic genie in a bottle to answer our every wish and command.

    The primary purpose of religion is for moral guidance and to preserve our relationship with our Heavenly Father while we are away from home.

    Asking God to help us with our needs helps us to focus our attention on a solution and to be receptive to inspiration and wisdom that can help us to solve our problem and to be attentive to those around us who are trying to help as well as to be aware of possible solutions in the environment around us.

  260. "Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion !"

    Stop lying. I've already told you that numerous have done it.

  261. Dear Ali Sina,

    Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion !
    Not a single Buddhist tried for their scripture.TRI-PITAKA !
    Not a single Jew tried for their old testament !
    Not a single Hindu tried for their Vedas !
    Not a single shikh tried for their Sri Guru Granth !
    Cant digest your explanation, impossible for me.

    If any one could have done it then like me many muslims may have converted to christianity.

  262. And because your work is based on Quran and Sunna. Anyone who says your work is rubbish says the Quran and Sunna are rubbish. They should beware the penalties for blasphemy – or bidah if they try to reinterpret Allah and Muhammad.

  263. A common theme to Muslims visiting here is that they are quick to jump into the comments section rather than reading the articles. If they would read, they would know what kind of person you are very well, and they would also be better prepared to discuss issues intelligently. Instead they bring the thoughts that have been instilled by their families and communities without any idea of the things in their texts that support your position.

    There was a recent interchange between Raymond Ibrahim and Egypt’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa. A personal note to Gomaa in his response said it better than I have:

    "the time for sophistry, apologetics, euphemisms, and projections is past. We live in an age where the historic, doctrinal, and contemporary facts of Islam are increasingly exposed for the world to see, in part thanks to the Internet and satellite, which defy censorship. Operating according to this fact — that is, respecting people’s intelligence — is the first step to meaningful dialogue."

    Grand Mufti Distorts Word ‘Infidel’ to Dupe Infidels http://pjmedia.com/blog/grand-mufti-distorts-word

    A link in that article is also the best study on taqiyya that I have seen:

    How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-o

    On this site recently I see a lot of the behavior described in this article. It makes me wonder if I am giving the benefit of the doubt too much by assuming the writers are ignorant rather than deceptive liars. I am unable to estimate the proportion or percentage of the two.

  264. "God can can not be summoned at men will (Man is not Gods keeper)"

    So he lied. He said he will answer the prayer – "knock and the door will be open." I don't have use for a god who does not listen to my prayers. I know if I were God I would listen to people's prayers. I would never allow suffering and injustice to go on for so long. So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him.

    "He will help those when he sees fit some in unexpected ways."

    That can be the result of chance. If God's help is not consistant, he is not a reliable God. I can rely on his help as much as I can rely on the the help of a jug of milk. Watch this clip. The clip talks about Christianity. I know you Muslims feel it is not talking about you. But it really does. It is about relying on God, whether Jehowah or Allah.
    http://youtu.be/jk6ILZAaAMI

  265. \”Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this\”

    The first part of this statement is true. No one should take my words or anybody\’s as absolute truth, not even Muhammad\’s. We are endowed with a brain to find the truth on our own and truth must stand the test of scrutiny.

    The other part of your statement is false. No Muslim has ever proven me wrong on Islam. I am even offering $50 K reward to anyone who can show I am mistaken in my calim against Muhammad. Many have written countless rubish but no one has been able to prove me wrong.

    This is not because I am smarter. It is because Islam is false. No one can prove a lie to be true.

  266. I can answer your question but I can\’t convince you. That is not in my hand. I have no power over your mind. I can only open the window and show you the light. But I cannot force you out of your cave.

    There is nothing mysetrious in the Quran. Muslims have blind faith in it and memorize it. It is a waste of intelligence and of their brain. Non-Muslim children learn sciences that help them build their world whereas Muslims memorize the Quran that keep them in ignorance. All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity.

    You are wasting your time wondering whether I am a Christians in disguise. Read my book instead and you will come to see the truth plain and simple. Then all you doubts will go away.

  267. So why are you defending Islam? Why do we never hear any reports of the results of your researching other religions?

    You don't talk like a person who was raised in a backwards country, but it is just totally bizarre to place importance on Quran memorizing. I Googled Bible memorizing and found lots of information on people who have memorized the Bible both living and in the past. I know of at least one member in the early history of my own church that has memorized the Bible. And I might add that the Bible is a considerably larger book than the Quran, so the achievement of memorizing the Bible is considerably greater than memorizing the Quran.

    There is nothing special about memorizing. Anybody can do it. It just takes time and effort. There is no miracle. In various phases of my life I have also had to memorize large amounts of material. There's nothing special about it. It's just effort and determination.

    Really, don't base your decision on such a trivial matter.

  268. Dear John K,
    No where I said I have already find the right religion.Rather I am trying to find a more convincing religion than islam. I want to say Mr. Ali deserves not to invite to leave islam if he is unable to explain the mystery of quaran memorising.

  269. I think it is not reserved for muslims only If anyone try can also memorise. When I was in school I heard the recitation of My hindu school teacher who memorised more than 20 chapters.

  270. You mystify me because you say you want to leave Islam and find the right religion, but then you defend Islam. It makes it appear that this is all a deceptive game from the beginning in which you have plotted to lay traps to spring your defense of Islam.

  271. But we have personal spiritual evidence even if it is not acknowledged as scientific evidence.

    Then there is the empirical evidence of the good fruits and powerful, productive civilization produced by the adherents of the good teachings.

  272. How does muslims memorising the koran prove its from god? If a unbelievers memorises it (which they could do as such a thing is not a supernatural ablity) would that prove koran is false? What questions you have? The only question i here you say was if i leave islam and i am wrong i go to hell. That is emotional not rational you believe in islam through fear, not because they are any good rational arugments for it. This is silly just make up your mind and stay with muhammed or leave him.

  273. "The point of the verse is not to have blind faith and not to believe in things which are not true, but rather to believe in things for which there is evidence." That`s the point you don`t believe in things for which their is evidence you KNOW.

  274. "Missed my point of what rights I mean (family values and marriage woman having souls ect )" Where did the pagans ever say women don`t have souls? They worshipped female god`s ( Lat Uzza and Manat which are mentioned in the koran). If they thought women were cattle they would not worship them as gods.

    "I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments" Well if you are a muslim then you should, because they represent islam and follow it. If you don`t support hamas then why support islam which is where hamas gets their views from?

    "Read both sides and know that just because some Muslims are bad that does not mean all are bad" All muslims are bad either they are deceptive or they honestly say what islam teaches. You cannot plead ignorance the truth about islam is out their and its your duty to study the facts then make up your mind. Either you are with us, the believers in freedom, human rights and the enlightenment or you are with the likes of hamas and the rest of your muslim brothers.

  275. Dear Ali Sina,

    xD That means fools and fanatics are best in memorising or the quaran is a book of mystery. You cannt answer all the question and cant convince me but only wants you muslims read my book and leave islam then everything is ok. Sometime I doubt that you were not a muslim at all. You probably a christian muslim hater in disguise of an exmuslim. Who only want to watch muslims leaving islam. But how can it be possible if you couldnt explain all.

  276. "You have a very stilted view of Islam and are missing a lot of facts" What facts are these?

    "Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this" Where in any of his debates with the muslim scholars was he proved wrong on anything (about islam)?

    "Travel and meet Muslims (not extremist) read all Hadith and at least put in the effort to properly understand what Islam means as you are missing my point and have no understanding of an Muslim point of view or culture (Ali Sina and others are guilty of this also)" Islam means submission to allah that`s it. Second i am not going to ask muslims what islam means and teaches i will go to the islamic texts and find out.

  277. You may have noticed I have tangled with him quite a bit already. I doubt his sincerity too. Before I came online today I was thinking of a few stronger unbeliever-hating verses myself in regards to his comments and wondering if he would denounce the Quran. Of course, it always comes back to why is someone a Muslim if they don't believe what Allah said.

  278. The point of the verse is not to have blind faith and not to believe in things which are not true, but rather to believe in things for which there is evidence. Spiritual evidence is different from scientific evidence. The universe may be full of things that are true, but which you have never seen because science has not discovered them yet, but they are nevertheless true even now while we exist in ignorance of them. Similarly God may be existing now without any of us being aware of Him and scientists unable to detect any trace of Him, or as you have expressed, He hasn't left us any evidence, at least not that which we are capable of detecting at our current state of science. However, Paul's point is that we have the evidence which is provided by the testifying experience of the Holy Spirit. When Christ left, he promised his disciples he would send the Holy Spirit which would testify of the truth of all things. Most cultures of the world have classical literature traditions dealing with mystical or transcendental experiences, or what we would call in the West, spiritual experiences. In your book you attribute this to a God Center in our brains. There is, however, an uncertainty principle operating here as well as to whether the person is experiencing something because the brain has God Center activity or whether the brain is having God Center activity because the person is having an experience. While I agree with your diagnosis of Muhammad's various disorders, I think it is too cynical to believe that people with healthy brains are deluded by their spiritual experiences.

    Have you looked at my link to mathematician and polymath David Berlinski yet? While he is an agnostic, he says there is much more in the science to suggest the existence of a God than most will admit.

    David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyxUwaq00Rc

  279. "I did not mean the thrill and the initial euphoria. But the eternal joy and peace"

    Right. The scriptures are full of verses concerning the fruits of the Spirit. As I posted elsewhere, Christ also speaks of the test of the fruits of our lives, which Muhammad fails miserably.

  280. You have a very stilted view of Islam and are missing a lot of facts

    Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this

    Travel and meet Muslims (not extremist) read all Hadith and at least put in the effort to properly understand what Islam means as you are missing my point and have no understanding of an Muslim point of view or culture (Ali Sina and others are guilty of this also)

    -JSOP

  281. ''Muhammed`s first wife had her own buisness before islam so how is this true?''

    Missed my point of what rights I mean (family values and marriage woman having souls ect )

    I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments
    Read both sides and know that just because some Muslims are bad that does not mean all are bad

    Everyone can be bad if the choose to be

    -JSOP

  282. "Do you think its right Ali Sina is saying Muslims are terrorist (post he just made)" Yes anyone who believes koran is from god and muhammed is the best example is either a terrorist or a supporter of the islamic terrorists.

    "Is this not similar to what you were arguing with him about Palestine (He quickly swayed the conversation back to hating Islam when he couldn't back up his hate for Palestinians)" NO the muslims can choose to leave islam if they want, the palestians on the other hand cannot change where they was born. Though those palestians who are muslims can renounce islam just like all other muslims, as well as terror attacks on israeli Civilians and anti-Semitism.

  283. "This not true all religionist text have violence woman had more rights at that time is one example" Muhammed`s first wife had her own buisness before islam so how is this true?

    "Look up the rules of war in the reign of Saladin (War Law of the Crusades )" Read the hamas manifesto, christians and jews are allowed to live if they pay jizya and feel themselves subjued. Pagans and atheists must convert or die, as well as the christians and jews who fight against islamic rule.

  284. "As you are an atheist this is hard to explain each religion has an answer for this question" They have a answer to this and that is love big brother (i.e god) more than anyone or anything. This disgusting concept is found in the bible, where Abraham to prove his devotion to God Prepares to Sacrifice his son fortunately for Isaac God stoped him at the last second and a lamb was Sacrificed instead. Of course later God sacrificed his own son by having him tortured and put on a cross to die a slow painfull death.

    "You are miss understanding what this means it is about those who strive to go out of there way to harm innocent people,mankind and corrupt the teachings and bending it to there own purpose (For example extremist groups picking and twist quotes to justify terrorism or groups to stereotype all Muslims as violent people to serve there own purpose or gain" It means nothing of the sort, muhammed was clear fight the unbelievers until religion is only for Allah. Anyone that Opposes islam is a "Oppressor".

  285. '' I don't pray myself. I am done with it. I did my share of sincere praying for too long and heared no response. I knocked and knocked but no one was home. I rang the phone, but no one picked up. As far as I am concerned nobody is there.''

    God can can not be summoned at men will (Man is not Gods keeper)

    He will help those when he sees fit some in unexpected ways.

    Why so quick to loose faith because you did not gain something yourself, learn some humility and self sacrifice (praying for others rather then ones own self)

    ''The sooner you come to this realization the sooner you will be free. Yes it is painful but liberating at the same time. ''

    Why preach there is not God when you do not know this (word not absolute )

    Man never will fully understand or comprehend God no matter how knowledgeable they claim to be

    Any Fanatic is bad

    Be moderate in thy pace [31/19]

    -JSOP

  286. Never think that you have reached the final stage of knowledge and nobody knows more than yourself. Remember! Above everyone endowed with knowledge is another endowed with more knowledge [12/76]. Even the Prophet [p.b.u.h] was asked to keep praying, "O My sustainer! Advance me in knowledge." [20:114

    Knowing something is different then someone falsely claiming to know something.

    Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17/36].

    Take note readers do your research yourself

    ''It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance''

    Yet you say to treat Muslims in a humiliating way and make excuses for hurting Muslims and the Norway Massacre

    The old Muslims beat there woman argument this has been around so long and has been disproved so many times yet it still is rehashed and believed by those who are misunderstanding the Quran

    ''It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance?''

    Assumption your word is not absolute only a small percent are terrorist this is an exaggeration and this act is trying to stir up hatred for Muslims and Islam

    Why go to so much trouble if Islam was ''so evil'' why would you have to lie,half quote and manipulate?

    -JSOP

  287. ''Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)" And what`s this nonsense, you love your religion more than your loved one`s? ''

    As you are an atheist this is hard to explain each religion has an answer for this question

    Read uncorrupted version of the Quran (meaning not one which has been changed or a some up, put the effort in) Bible Torah Psalms, all Hadiths and Sufi doctrine

    " Yes because disbelief is a crime (according to islam) and skeptics of islam are spreading corruption the crime of which in the koran is "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;" ''

    You are miss understanding what this means it is about those who strive to go out of there way to harm innocent people,mankind and corrupt the teachings and bending it to there own purpose (For example extremist groups picking and twist quotes to justify terrorism or groups to stereotype all Muslims as violent people to serve there own purpose or gain

    ''Good deeds in islam is obeying Allah and his messenger, not showing kindness to your fellow humans, yet alone being truthfull.''

    This not true all religionist text have violence woman had more rights at that time is one example (term queens of Islam)

    Muslims obey all of the messengers from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad (peace be upon them all )
    You seem to not realise Jews Christians and Muslims all worship the same god and take note at how they are alike rather then trying to drive each religion to hate each other

    Many on this site only post half quotes,only quote out of context, distorted facts,

    What you are talking about is a bad person in this era using there corrupted views of Islam to justify violence on innocents not Islam itself know the difference

    Look up the rules of war in the reign of Saladin (War Law of the Crusades )

    Do you think its right Ali Sina is saying Muslims are terrorist (post he just made)

    Is this not similar to what you were arguing with him about Palestine (He quickly swayed the conversation back to hating Islam when he couldn't back up his hate for Palestinians)

    -JSOP

  288. "Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)" And what`s this nonsense, you love your religion more than your loved one`s?

    "Talking of those where are corrupted and committed crimes this quote is straight forward" Yes because disbelief is a crime (according to islam) and skeptics of islam are spreading corruption the crime of which in the koran is "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;"

    "Your Arrogance will show your true colours and the way you act is showing you are not in any way or form committing a good deed" Good deeds in islam is obeying Allah and his messenger, not showing kindness to your fellow humans, yet alone being truthfull.

  289. So if you did not believe God existed you would believe pedophilia and genocide were good? Another thing hitler claimed he was sent by the almighty god to kill the jews, if God had sent him would that mean the holucaust was good? "Why one is the right and one is wrong.?" Why is loving your neighbor good? When we talk of morality we should not think in terms of "right" and "wrong" but cause and effect, if you decide to kill someone you are responsible for your actions and you have to be prepared for the consequences.

  290. This is not a mystery for me to explain. The reason is obvious. Muslims have fanatical faith in Islam and they memorize the Quran believing it to be the word of God. They also believe that if they kill and die for Islam they will go to heaven. This only proves their fanaticism and not the truth of Islam. Bertrand Russell says “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”

    The fact that Muslims are strong believers is evidence that they are among the fools and fanatics. They memorize the Quran because they are fanatical. Had they been wise, they would have read the book and analyzed it. If the Quran is a message from God, then they should read it to understand his message. Let us say you receive an important letter, written in a language that you don’t understand do you chant it or do you grab a dictionary and try to understand what it says? That is what I did and it was then that I realized this book is nothing but raving of a mad man.

    Muslims should stop chanting and memorizing the Quran. This book is not a book of songs. It claims to be a book of guidance. So read it carefully and see to what it guides you. It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance?

  291. Dear Ali Sina,

    Your analytical articles are rational and informational. Help us understanding better. Would you like to articulate one more article on the statement that "" One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy. Does the indicates the origination of the Books that the quaran is not from human being and the rest all are from human being/ corrupted by humans. Somebody tells me that other scriptures or at least equal to the text of quaran is also memorised by few peoples but failed to give me any address of such people, I have searched google for such people but not found, do you know any such people. Someone says memorisation also helps to preserve authenticity of the word beside its written form. If ignorant people at first memorises quaran and subsequently understands some meaning but he does no forget the earlier memory. what is your opinion in this regard.

  292. ''9:23, O ye who believe! take not for awlia (protectors, friends, allies) your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.''

    Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)
    and were hypocritical in there actions for example contradicting there religions and not being true to it (mentioned in the Bible and Torah also )

    You all need to realise some Muslims do read all of the Holy text (Quran, Torah, Bible,Psalms and all of the Hadiths from all sects of Islam)

    9:28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …

    Talking of those where are corrupted and committed crimes this quote is straight forward

    Read what the unbelievers did for example mass orgies and human sacrifice ect

    ''I bet you will not. I knew it. I just wanted to test your sincerity''

    Talk straight, to the point, without any ambiguity or deception [33/70]

    Always speak the truth. Shun words that are deceitful and ostentatious [22/30]

    Do not be contemptuous or arrogant with people [31/18]

    You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44]

    Your Arrogance will show your true colours and the way you act is showing you are not in any way or form committing a good deed

    -JSOP

  293. “Faith is believing in what is true.”

    Actually, faith is believing in what cannot be proven to be true. There is no need to believe in things that can be proven. Do you believe in gorillas? The question is absurd because everybody has seen a gorilla. The question makes only sense if I replace gorilla with Big Foot. Nobody has seen the Big Foot, or at least most people have not. The very existence of this creature is questionable. So in this case you can choose to believe or not. But in the case of gorilla the question is absurd. You KNOW that gorillas exist and you may BELIEVE that the Big Foot exist.

    We believe in things for which there is no proof. If I ask you the time. You look at your watch and say it is 3 PM. But if you don\’t have a watch you may guess and say I believe it is 3 PM. In the second case you BELIEVE because you are not sure.

  294. “A moderate Muslim would sit and eat with any guest of their home not matter there religion. Is there some that will not do that yes but there are others who would not sit with a Muslim also
    That is a persons choice not religion “

    So are you ready to denounce these two verses? There is more, but let us start somewhere.

    9:23, O ye who believe! take not for awlia (protectors, friends, allies) your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
    9:28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …

    I bet you will not. I knew it. I just wanted to test your sincerity.

  295. Dear Ali Sina,

    You are helping us to think rationally and your vision it is. Could you help us with a new article on the topic that """"One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy."" Is this because that the Quaran is Gods word and the others are human made or corrupted by humans.

  296. //Ali Sina reports a negative (as in "nil", not "bad") experience with prayer, and similarly that experience must be respected since he complies with the social contract of mutual respect and humanistic behavior.//
    Not a problem respecting any kind of view as long as it is complies with mutual respect and humanistic behavior. I have utmost respect and love as my fellow brother for Mr Ali, because what he is doing is great. I hope and pray for his safety because Islam is evil and real.
    Bible says " Fear of the Lord is wisdom, and departing from evil is undersatnding" Dr Sina has understanding and Wisdom comes from God when asked for wisom.

  297. Hi John
    //Some people obviously make mistakes, like Tony Blair's sister going to Iran and feeling a thrill and thinking that means Islam is true, but in the main, we cannot judge other people's personal experiences. It //
    By personal experience I did not mean the thrill and the initial euphoria. But the eternal joy and peace that only come when you get saved, it a different experience. That joy which none other but a save person experience, because the burden of sin is lifted and the fear of death is gone, and for assurance of salvation.

  298. //Yes they can think rationally, however when it comes to God they can`t, just like a atheist may believe in many delusions despite the fact they think rationally about God.//

    If God does not exist then who cares what Mohamed, Hitler or Stalin did, as they all created their own standard and in their mind they were right. So they are as rational as they can get without God, Existence of evil is only understood by the standard what God have set. Moral relativism is what you get without God…for that fact I can say, in some culture people love their neighbor, in some culture people love to eat their neighbor. Why one is the right and one is wrong.?

  299. Theresa sounds like Agracean, this video perfectly explains her behaviour. But sorry Agracean, Atheism is true God isn`t.

  300. Excellent video about this topic:

    "The Real God: An Epiphany "

    [youtube -j8ZMMuu7MU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU youtube]

  301. "Can you say people who have faith in God does not think rationally ?" Yes they can think rationally, however when it comes to God they can`t, just like a atheist may believe in many delusions despite the fact they think rationally about God.

  302. I wouldn't doubt that millions are working on it. I doubt that millions are at a high state of completion.

  303. Google is your friend. Bible memorization is not a part of Western culture like Quran is for Muslims, but a lot of people have done it.

    It's a trivial reason to change religions, and certainly not the best use of your time. Use your time studying and learning. You will progress in knowledge faster.

  304. Let us suppose for a moment, something like God, heaven and hell existed:

    1.) Why would a God punish a human NOT for what he did but ONLY for what he or she used to "believe" or "not believe" during lifetime? "Prophet" Muhammad killed people, raped a child, raided caravans, kept female slaves for sex? Doesn't matter, after all he was a good muslim, so he'll go to paradise. Gandhi tried to live a life without violence, in asceticism – however, he was not a muslim? Too bad for him, he'll go to hell anyway.
    Even if there was a God this kind of logic would not be acceptable. And moreover: Forcing a certain "faith" upon people's by the threat with eternal hell-fire is always has the smell of brainwashing, a totalitarian "mind-control". A "right to think" means "a right to doubt"!

    2.) From what age on will you enter heaven or hell? What if a baby dies? Will it go to heaven or hell? What if a 3,4,5,10,12-years old child dies? (Is islamic heaven with the houris a suitable place for minors?) What if a person who is mentally retarded dies? Will he (or she) go to paradise (or hell) as a mentally retarded? What if someone is psychotic, before he or she dies? Will he or she go to heaven or hell as a psychotic? What if someone suffers from Alzheimer' disease, before he dies? Will he or she go to heaven or hell in the state of Alzheimer'?

    3.) For ten thousands of years most people all over the world were pagans – before Christ appeared around the year 0 and before Muhammad appeared around the year 570 AD. Why did God, if he really is the "one and only true God", allow countless generations peoples of all kinds of different cultures in Europe, in North- and South-America, in Asia, in Australia even in the Arctic region etc. to practise paganism – and all of a sudden he decided to "reveal himself" to certain allegedly "elected" people with the words: "Hey, buddies, you better worship me alone, otherwise you will end up in hellfire"? Then what happened to those countless generations of pagans after their death BEFORE Jesus and later Muhammad appeared? What will happen resp. happened to e.g. Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Alexander the Great, Julius Cesar after their death? (And what will e.g. happen to Gandhi and the Dalai Lama after their death, who are resp. were both neither Muslim nor Christian?)

  305. Still it is amazing me, Millions!!!!!!!
    Not repeated in case of any other book of the world.

  306. Dear Enlightened25,

    Still it is amazing me …. millions memorised quaran not few or 100 or 1000.

    Give me address of one person who memorised bible, surely it will convince me to be a christian after meeting him.

  307. Every religion / non religion has bad people not just Islam

    Every man,women and child has the struggle (jihad) between doing good or evil things it is not fair to say it is a entire religion at the fault of evil that is not thinking clearly and is being blinded by your own bias

    Never judge a entire religion on a few

    Like on this site rather then addressing them by there name they say Muslim and say as a Muslim there opinion does not matter, are evil, brought hared onto themselves, and blame innocents for the crimes of the guilty (Saying all Muslims are like AQ) and make comments which are double standards

    When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favorable view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter. Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and truthful evidence [24/12-13]

    Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion, color, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]

    A moderate Muslim would sit and eat with any guest of their home not matter there religion. Is there some that will not do that yes but there are others who would not sit with a Muslim also

    That is a persons choice not religion

    Only Allah (God) has the right to judge who will go to heaven or hell and he alone only has the right to pass judgement on Mankind.

    -JSOP

  308. Last poll was 40% of practicing scientists still believe.

  309. Right. We often get caught up in the practicality of life and forget the beauty of life.

  310. Maruf said: "Yes you all are right. Almighty has given us intellect. We must use it. We should be theist by our choice not blindly to the inherited religion. A questioning mind or skepticism, guidance will lead to the truth. Strong belief do demands logic, rationality, authenticity, proof and guidance of almighty. A true religion will have these. A true God will not send us message to blindly follow Him."

    I agree. This is very similar to what I wrote for Ria above, if you would please read that comment too. In short, I told her that spiritual experience must be backed up with intellectual study and confirmation to make sure that what the spiritual experience is telling us is valid.

    You will notice that Muhammad did send us a message to blindly follow him and he offered no proof. He only said that he is God's messenger. How do we know? Because the Quran says so. How do we know the Quran is true? Because Muhammad said so. This is circular logic.

  311. Hi Ria,

    As you do more reading in the comments sections, you will see that I have also used Hebrews 1:1 to establish that true Christians do no exercise blind faith, but rather that real faith is based on evidence. Your list of 5 points is interesting, but I would add that the most important point of evidence is that Christ promised us that he would send the Holy Spirit to testify of the truth of all things. This evidence is scientific to the extent that the "experiment" is repeatable, hence the growth of the church, but it is not sufficient to be accepted by science because it is not externally observable. So I always say that a person's inner experience with God is a personal responsibility.

    Some people obviously make mistakes, like Tony Blair's sister going to Iran and feeling a thrill and thinking that means Islam is true, but in the main, we cannot judge other people's personal experiences. It does, though, illustrate the importance of studying to verify that our spiritual experiences support intelligent and valid beliefs, and not just blind, uneducated beliefs like Muslims do without even knowing what their books say. In the US we call this, "Know Your Religion".

    In not judging other people's spiritual experiences, we should respect them for their decisions. Unfortunately Islam violates this social contract by not giving respect and for criminal and sociopathic behavior, and so we have the principle, "respect cannot be given, it must be earned".

    Ali Sina reports a negative (as in "nil", not "bad") experience with prayer, and similarly that experience must be respected since he complies with the social contract of mutual respect and humanistic behavior.

  312. If I say 1+1=2 is it my idea or a universal truth?

    You argued the bank analogy. Do the math of sin, justice and mercy.

  313. Maruf has serious doubts in Islam, he can do a critical thinking and may be come out of it. But that does not mean God does not exist.

    "But I use rational thinking and it works better for me.". Can you say people who have faith in God does not think rationally ?

  314. Dr Ali Sina
    Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Faith is believing in what is true. Faith has two elements: 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things, and 2) believing, hoping in, embracing the truth. Faith is not blind.

    It also takes lot of faith to say there is no God. And I don't have that much faith to say that. Did you infinitely search to find the truth ? And no one can, to say some thing definite. We don't see air with our naked eye, but we can feel it. So we have faith in air. I did not see God, but I can see the evidence of his existence by following :
    GAPUTs !

    1.G: God said so
    2.A: Archeological and Historical
    3.P: Prophecy
    4.U: Universal Truths
    5.T: Testimony, my personal other peoples experience.

  315. I did not say get on your knees praying. I don\’t pray myself. I am done with it. I did my share of sincere praying for too long and heared no response. I knocked and knocked but no one was home. I rang the phone, but no one picked up. As far as I am concerned nobody is there. It is just you alone to find your way and help yourself, The sooner you come to this realization the sooner you will be free. Yes it is painful but liberating at the same time.

    I am not against praying, But I use rational thinking and it works better for me. And you are absolutely right: A true God will not send messages to blindly follow.

  316. Maruff

    I am happy for you on your journey. When you ask, it shall be given, when you knock it shall be open. It is a promise. Because God will never deny wisdom to those who seek wisdom, And Jesus himself said to Pontius Pilate, when Pilate asked him, what is the truth? Jesus replied "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" Don't commit the same mistake Pilate did, because Pilate asked the right question to the right person (Who are you Jesus to Jesus himself), but he did not wait for the answer.

    Ask the right question to the right person, and wait for the reply. It will come. Come to him as you are with all the pre-assumptions, pre-supposition, week, sinful. Pray to God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael to revel the truth about Jesus. Ask him if Jesus is just a prophet or God himself in flesh. You don't have to share this thoughts with anyone. Keep it between you and your maker. Since you did your part, it will be His turn to show it to you. When he does show you the right path and accept what He wants, but not what you THINK is the truth. AND THAT TRUTH WILL GIVE YOU TRUE FREEDOM!

  317. Still looking god through a group of organized people (religion), Maruf? That’s not how you play a wager. You are seeking a perfected religion in your own mind. You lumped together any merit you could find and tried to put it into one, single organized religion. The problem is that there is no glass large enough to contain it.

    Strong belief doesn't demand anything but belief. It's just a strong belief. You are making assumption again before researching. True god won't do that? How do you know, from your research?

  318. Why does a artist paint ? Ans: For the love of painting

  319. Simply pardoning is insufficient, is it your idea or else

  320. Dear Ali Sina, Ria, John K, Agracean,………

    You said, """Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus."""

    Yes you all are right. Almighty has given us intellect. We must use it. We should be theist by our choice not blindly to the inherited religion. A questioning mind or skepticism, guidance will lead to the truth. Strong belief do demands logic, rationality, authenticity, proof and guidance of almighty. A true religion will have these. A true God will not send us message to blindly follow Him. Thats why I often bother you.

  321. That requires the bank to write off a loss. The Justice of a perfect God is perfect and cannot accept any imperfection in accounting.

  322. It's my pleasure to help when people are really interested. If I sense disinterest or hostility, I only provide short answers.

    This is the only copy of Suyuti I can find in Arabic:
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?pr

    Perhaps if you copy the Arabic title and search Google on that, you can find a free online version.

    "deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated"

    These kinds of words in addressing scholarly work are not useful. I do not discount the possibility of mistranslation due to error, misunderstanding, or even sometimes dishonesty as suggested here, but in the main, translations can be checked against other translations, or the ultimate authority of the original Arabic as you suggested. Certainly the case does not rest on the meaning of one passage. The response of Haddad sounds like typical taqiyya and white-wash apologetics. He also completely skips over the key phrase, "Much of the Quran has been lost", which renders his interpretation totally inappropriate for the context.

    Ahmed's proof of the preservation of the Quran is also weak, and in fact, offers no evidence at all. In contrast archaeologists have discovered variant Quran copies putting to lie the argument that there is only one Quran.

    "memorized by millions"

    You should also observe that it is mostly memorized by people who do not understand Arabic, which contributes to the illiteracy of the umma. Their time would be better spent studying the content of the Quran and Sunna. In the US we call that "Know Your Religion".

  323. "One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy." This is not true some christians and jews have memorized the whole bible (which is a lot bigger than the koran). You can memorize any text songs, poems and even whole books if you practice hard and long enough. And yes even in a foreign language.

  324. Dear John K,

    You quote, ""Such is the situation in our lives. A pardon is insufficient. Christ redeemed us from our sins through the Atonement.""
    Pardoning/ waving debtor/looan is a normal phenomena in our Banking activities of the Banks. A third party/ intermediary dont require to pay the Bank.

  325. Maruf, I don’t even consider an afterlife to be real no matter in what form, be it positive, negative or even weird. It’s just our own desire that created it. I suggest you try to think about my questions. It will be clearer before you play the "if" game, a never end game.

    It's a clear fact that even we pretend that god is real he doesn't even want to be known in literal sense. So, it is "his wish" for you to be like this.

  326. Dear John K,

    Gratitude for your laborious and informational compilation of explanations.

    Firs I have failed to collect the arabic original statement of Ibn Umar on authentication of Quaran. would you like to provide it?

    I have found a reply by shayk g.f. haddad at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php… on the statement of Ibn Umar and he said::

    ""The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.

    The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were — I am quoting from memory — respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated).

    The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:

    "Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [= its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."

    Ibn `Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."

    Also Ibn `Abbas's and `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf's saying: "The Qur'an has an outward meaning, [literally 'a back'] (zahr) and an inward meaning [literally 'an inside'] (batn).""

    we can justify him if we could found the arabic original statement of Ibn Umar narrated by As-Suyuti.

    Regarding the contribution of Hazrat Uthman(MABPWH) I read the article on http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/qura

    One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

  327. It's good to worship and follow only my beloved Lord Jesus Christ's words and teachings found in the Bible and you will not be led astray by any strange doctrines in this troublesome world. Any other 'prophets' who came to proclaim messages or teachings that were contradictory to what Jesus Christ has taught are known as false prophets and their religion is known as cult.

    The truth is that Jesus Christ never teach any of His followers that they should install a Pope on planet earth nor bow down and worship him like God. Besides that, Jesus Christ never teach us to baptise in proxy of the dead like what the founder of Mormonism taught all his followers to do so. So, it's vital for you to know the truth and the truth will set you free from every deceptions and lies.

  328. Christianity falls into 3 main branches, somewhat the way Islam falls into Sunni, Shia, and Sufi.

    Jesus gave Peter the priesthood authority to establish the church. Catholics claim that the authority was passed on to them by Peter ordaining the first Pope.

    Protestants came along starting with Martin Luther by saying that there is no way the Catholic church is the true church because of all the abuses of the church and failure to conform to the teachings of the Bible. Protestants use their own logic to interpret the Bible and have no claim of priesthood authority. Hence there are so many Protestant denominations.

    The Mormon Church, which is a shorter nickname for the rather long full name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is also known as the LDS Church. It is a restored church, meaning that everything Jesus did to establish his church when He lived has been restored again today in these latter-days.

    So all three branches of Christianity are called Christian. In that sense, Mormons share the same beliefs in common with Christianity. Whereas the other two branches believe, like Islam, that the heavens are sealed and there can be no more communication with God, Mormons believe in modern prophets and continuing revelation.

    Amos 3:7
    Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

  329. "Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus."

    Look what happened when these Muslim ex-terrorists did that:

    Afshins's Story – Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3VqbhVDtM

    Kamal's story – dramatized version
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccio1vE41M

  330. Amen. Ria is right! You've got to humble yourself before God and pray. Jesus taught us how to pray like this: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

  331. Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

  332. For the same reasons that you work hard to provide your children with food on the table and a roof over their head and send them off to college – to take care of His children and help them to develop their fullest potential.

  333. Hi Maruff, Mormonism is a a cult, just like Islam. The mastermind behind these two religion of lies is the same father of lies, namely satan. So, please don't fall prey into the same trap again, after you've get out of Islam.

  334. No it is not more logical.

    First you have to pull yourself out of that cesspool and then find another place to rest.
    Furthermore, why would you need another religion? Millions of peple rely on their own intelligence and become free thinkers. You can pick the good in every philosophy or religion and be free. There is no point in being the follower of any faith.

    And who said you cannot believe in God even when you don’t believe in any religion? The belief in God is personal. You can have your faith in God and worship him the way you think it is right without being part of any religion. A great majority of people do just that.

  335. Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus.

  336. Dear John k,

    I have not known that you are telling about Mormons. What are the basic beliefs of Mormons.

  337. Dear Sina,

    You said, Why don\'t you read my book once and get over it?
    I am searching another faith to get into before get out of it. Is it not more logical? Because atheism is not better than theism.

  338. Why at all did God( if there is any) create the universe?

  339. Isn't it funny you said this 3 months ago, and he is still doing the same thing now?

  340. Mr Maruff, the following verses proved that JESUS IS GOD.

    John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

  341. I have told you twice that Jesus asked us to worship the Father.

    In these verses Jesus says that he is the Jehovah of the Old Testament (Jehovah = YHWH = I AM). The next verse in John says the Jews tried to kill him for saying that.

    You should listen to Dr. Sina and read his book. You won't understand Islam and Muhammad until you read his book. The guarantee is that you will not remain a Muslim after reading it. How can a book be so powerful that it has a 100% success rate? If it were weaker, Dr. Sina would say 90% of the people who read my book leave Islam, or 50% or 30%. But the facts are so undeniable that 100% who actually read it leave Islam. Is that what you are afraid of? It would appear so because you have not brought yourself to read it.

  342. These are some very good thoughts Ria. David Wood says that the Muslim corruption of the life of Jesus amounts to Islam saying that Allah is a Deceptive God and Jesus was an Incompetent Messiah. You can review the evidence here:

    Original Text:

    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/05/who-corru

    Video update:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ALL_43xgco

    You are certainly right about the Quran turning morality upside down. Jesus told us how to detect false prophets. Muhammad fails this test miserably:

    Matthew 7
    15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    The Quran is a manifestation of Muhammad's desire to have a god back him up in the immoral and criminal things he said. The Quran is a record of Muhammad's Narcissistic Personality Disorder, among other disorders he had. Dr. Sina explains the diagnosis in his book. If you have you read it yet, you need to for a full understanding of Muhammad and how he influences Muslim thought and behavior.

  343. "I almost wish to give up on explaining to you and say to you brother don't bother just keep believing this one person whose character is really shady"

    I can understand your frustration. Some of his writings give me the feeling of insincerity too as if his questions are just tricks to defend Islam, but I give him the benefit of the doubt in case he is sincere.

    "I am not a scholar but a regular person who has faith in a God"

    You can be happy and live a life in communion with God without scholarship, but I think it is healthier when the logical mind and spiritual life are in harmony. When you are aware of the current state of scholarship it also makes you a better advocate.

    "a God who is mighty enough to preserve any book that he gave us. No human can corrupt anything which God has done."

    This is a noble sentiment, but it is not supported by the Bible. The key word is can versus will. I'm sure he could, but he is not in the business of going around preventing evil wherever it occurs. He says, "Thou shalt not kill", but he does not prevent killing. He says not to take away from the words in the Bible, but he has not prevented it. This is one of the reasons the Book of Mormon was given. Here is an article listing the books that the Bible says has been lost:

    Lost books. The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).

    The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.

    Matthew’s reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present O.T. seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isaiah 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.

    The Book of Mormon makes reference to writings of O.T. times and connection that are not found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other known source. These writings are of Zenock, Zenos, and Neum (1 Ne. 19:10; Alma 33:3–17). An extensive prophecy by Joseph in Egypt (which is not in the Bible) is also apparent from 2 Ne. 3:4–22, and a prophecy of Jacob (not found in the Bible) is given in Alma 46:24–26. These writings were evidently contained on the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 5:10–13).
    http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/lost-books.p1?lang=e

  344. Hi Maruff. You have beed debating in this site for months, Why don\’t you read my book once and get over it? It will be one way or the other. You will either know I am lying or you will come to see that Muhammad was the liar.

  345. Dear John K,

    You quoted,

    God identified himself to Moses thusly:

    Exodus 3:14
    And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    Jesus was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be I AM:

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    I cant understand how these verses means that Jesus(Pbuh) is claiming that he is God or to worship him.

  346. Actually Revelation 22 : 18-19

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  347. Here is what Bible says about corrupting God's words.

    Revelation 22: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  348. John are we taking about the same God, who created heaven and earth and all things in the universe and outside, who parted the Red Sea, whose face Moses could not look at, Who send fire from heaven, who destroyed the earth with the flood because of the evil in it and saved Noah. But the same God could not save his first two messages from getting corrupt. Those smart ass Jews and Christian, tricked God, so God have to send a third revelation Quran, to faithfuls in Arabia. Who really were the only people wanting to keep god's message as-is. I am wondering if Jews and Christian tricked God to corrupt his first two revelations, what kept Jews and Christian from corrupting the third message. Or is it possible Jews and Christian could not trick muslim coz muslim's are smarter than god himself.

    Also the third revelation is better because it sets everything in reverse, upside down, even lowers moral standard but can't eat pigs, but be a pig and marry some one else wife the same night you kill em. Oh but the corrupt Book says, do not covet your neighbors wife or his belongings. em!! Why is the man's message in the corrupt book looking better in standards ? Any thoughts John !! ???

  349. However if you are hung up on a word "begotton", which in original text Greek, is μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios, transliterated. The word that is being translated as only begotten by the KJV is monogenes. The King James Version translators liked to translate word-for-word when it was possible. So when they came to monogenes they translated mono as only and genes as begotten. [Source: http://answering-islam.org/Who/jesus_monogenes.ht…. Now the king James version was done in 1611. So with a better English translation, you have more accurate translation from orginal greek and Hebrew. BTW no one claims KJV is only the translation from God and all other translation are from under…it was one of the most popular translation for last 300 years, but that does not mean every word was accurate, but tried the best of the best. However I can assure you KJV say the same message as NIV or ORIGINAL GREEK version. Message of God did not change, that YOU ARE A SINNER.

  350. Do you know how Bible ends , Revalation 22 Vs 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. " If your Mohamed added things to the Bible and took away the truth from the Bible by twisting the facts leading million to hell. The his fate is described above.

  351. I almost wish to give up on explaining to you and say to you brother don't bother just keep believing this one person whose character is really shady, but who say quran is completely preserved because quran say so! I am not a scholar but a regular person who has faith in a God, a God who is mighty enough to preserve any book that he gave us. No human can corrupt anything which God has done. If he can part Red sea, for the people of Israel to cross it, he can strike down a hand that raises to corrupt his message.

  352. It's not about Trinity being hard to understand.

    It's about being hard to accept being wrong about something Muhammad believed.

  353. This is the law of justice. God is a God of Mercy, but he is also a God of Justice.

    Imagine a man who foolishly assumes an unwise debt, thinking someday he will have the means to repay. The years pass, but he never accumulates the resources to satisfy the debt. One day the creditor comes and wants his money. Being unable to pay, the debtor asks for Mercy. The creditor says he is one-sided. If the debtor gets Mercy, he will not have his Justice. The debtor asks if he does not believe in Mercy. The creditor asks if he does not believe in Justice. But the law favors justice, and as the young man is about to be carried away to debtor's prison, an intermediary comes who knows the young man. He knows he is foolish but has a good heart, so he offers to pay the debt to free the debtor. The creditor is satisfied that he has received Justice, and the debtor is grateful that he has received Mercy.

    Such is the situation in our lives. A pardon is insufficient. Christ redeemed us from our sins through the Atonement. But what is the use of forgiveness if there is no Eternal Life? Christ also assured our Eternal Life through his death and Resurrection. You should also observe that Jesus freely gave his life. God did not kill his Son as you inaccurately observed.

    I already told you that Jesus instructed us to worship the Father. Abdullah Ishan wrote a recent comment listing several verses about Jesus claiming to be God, but I will suffice with this:

    God identified himself to Moses thusly:

    Exodus 3:14
    And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    Jesus was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be I AM:

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    I have also told you that the concept of the Trinity is a Hellenization and does not appear in the Bible.

    Believe me, you only show your ignorance about Christianity and Western culture if you think that the concept of three Gods has anything to do with declining church attendance. This concept is a big thing to you Muslims because it goes against what Muhammad taught, but in the West, Muhammad is an insignificant nobody. If you took a survey and asked people what they know about Muhammad, it will come up nearly nil.

    The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.

    That is the cycle that is happening in the West. But if you compare Western unrighteousness with Muslim evil, Islam is by far more evil and produces more evil actions than the West ever dreamed of.

    Jesus tells how to tell if a prophet is true or not. Muhammad fails this test miserably:

    Matthew 7
    15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.

    Video on the Justice and Mercy story:

    http://lds.org/media-library/video/book-of-mormon

  354. That is completely illogical. Why is God able to protect his word in the Quran but unable to protect his word in the Bible? Is this a limitation on Allah's power? Does he now have all power? This is simply another example of Islam's fraud.

  355. I am telling you what you need to know, not what you want to know. What it is showing is that the Quran is not in a superior position to the Bible in terms of original manuscripts. I am obviously more of a Quran expert than you, or the Imams who have taught you, since I know of these things and you do not. What will experts do? Turn to the sources I gave you. So what is the superiority of their position other than that they claim a right to rule over you?

    If you want the third one, I will offer this shameless plug:

    The Book of Mormon was translated from the original manuscript. This is the English version. If you are more comfortable in another language, you can switch in the Language menu at the upper right of the screen.

    Read it here:

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng

    Read about it here:

    http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/

  356. You Muslims really amaze me the way that you can read something and come up with totally the wrong conclusion. I did not say the Bible is not God's word. I did not say it is made by human inspiration.

    The word 'inspire" means the "Spirit" of God coming "in" to a person's mind.

    Please do not make assumptions, jump to conclusions, or conclude I have agreed to more than what I have said.

    I said there are no original manuscripts surviving. We believe men wrote what God inspired them to write. They may have errors in their ability to express what they were shown, or in what they understood about what they were shown, but the source is still divine. There is also the matter of errors in clerical transmission and reproduction by hand.

  357. 1 John 5:7 KJV says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

  358. Dude, why it is so complicated for muslims to understand the concept of Trinity?
    even there are many prophecies that have come true,which are mentioned in the Bible. http://www.islamreview.com/faq.htm http://www.theevidence.org.uk/

  359. I am asking you about your bible not about the quaran. About quaran I will ask a quarinic expert. proving quaran is corrupt is not enhancing the authenticity of the bible. It means quaran is bad so bad bible is permitted. if the two is bad then we will find the third one.

  360. I will see the references you have given. But up to now you have agreed that the bible is not Gods word. It is human made by inspiration.

  361. Dear John K,

    Very very amusing reply.
    God creates human beings and kills the son for atonement of the human beings. He could simply pardoned them. How absurd this is. The christian God is loving to his creations but unjust to his son.

    Give me the references where in the complete bible Jesus(Pbuh) himself says he is God or worship him.

    Give me the references where in the complete bible the word trinity is mentioned.

    Godhead means a council of three separate Gods but equal to one God how funny. Thats why the church attendance is declining.

  362. In the quaran it is assured that the quaran will be protected. The bible was Gods word but corrupted before the revelation of quaran and it is mentioned in the quaran that the christians says that the God has begotten a son which is completely a corruption.

  363. "So is it not possible that trinity is a theory that is added later"

    Three separate persons is supported in the New Testament. Trinity as three in one is not supported. It is a Hellenism added by the early Christian intellectuals to make Christianity more appealing to Greek philosophy.

    "Jesus himself never claimed he is God or to worship him."

    That's not correct. Jesus was accused of blasphemy by the Jews for saying he is Jehovah of the Old Testament. That is why he was crucified. Jesus does ask us to worship the Father in his name. The Father says he receives no prayer that is not given in the name of Jesus Christ. Christ speaks for the Father by Divine investiture of authority."

    "It is best suits that he is a messenger of God."

    No. That best suits the Muslim view of Jesus. Jesus came to atone for our sins. No prophet can do that, and Muhammad cannot do that. That is why martyrdom is popular. It is the only sure way in Islam to assure your salvation. In Christianity God dies for man. In Islam, man dies for God.

    "And also I dont understand what is Godhead."

    Just think of it as a council of three Gods with the Father in highest authority and Jesus and The Holy Spirit as two assistants also holding the rank of a God. This is shirk in Islam, but the Quran assigns plenty of companions to Allah as well:

    Does Allah Commit Shirk? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7QwOAf4Ww

  364. So, to get back to your questions:

    "But their should be no versions of the holy scriptures as versions differs each other. The Holy scripture should be in one version that is original text."

    So as I have shown above, there is no original Biblical text just as there is no original Quran. It is not possible when dealing with ancient materials. We do the best we can with what we have.

    "So the bible have no complete original text but have different translated versions. one version is more latest than the other."

    You see the same thing with Quran translations. When a verse is not uniformly translated, you often see 3, 5, or even 10 translations quoted in order to get a sense of it. When it is still not clear, you go back to the Arabic. Similarly, we look at the Hebrew or Greek when not sure about the English Bibles.

    "So without the original text it is impossible for us to find the authenticity of bible from the different versions of bibles as they differ from each other."

    Such it is whether dealing with translations of the Quran or the Bible. In either case, we can compare the translations with the original language, but with both the Quran and the Bible, the accuracy of the available manuscripts are uncertain. But that is not important because we can understand the overall message. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

    Dr. Sina has this to say about the differences between reading the Quran and reading the Bible:

    "Muhammad claimed that his book is the verbatim words of God. Since God is infallible and cannot make even one mistake, if we find one error in the Quran it proves that Muhammad lied. We have found hundreds of errors in that book, if not thousands.

    The Bible does not claim to be the verbatim word of God. If you read the Bible you’ll see that it is a narrative of different people, written by humans. According to the believers of the Bible the authors of that book were inspired. This is not the same as to say I have brought a textual message from God. I can watch a beautiful scene, become inspired and go home and draw it or compose a poetry describing it. I am interpreting my own experience. Of course my experience is subjective. The authors of the Bible claimed they were inspired, but in nowhere they said that any part of that book is verbatim words of God. The Bible does not say it is the exacts word of God, but a message from God.

    So if there are errors in the Bible, one can attribute them to the fallibility of those who wrote it. The enlightened Christians do not get boggled by the words, but by the mesage of the Bible. The Bible was written by about 40 individuals whose names are recorded. However, the gist of the message of all of them is the same, which is diametrically opposed to the message of the Quran."
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/comp

    I have spoken to you before about your nit-picking John 3:16. The difference between saying son and begotten son are no more significant than the differences between various Quran translations. The argument about John 3:16 is irrelevant unless you don't understand English or you are a Muslim trying to strain at a gnat for a doctrinal point while you swallow a camel.

    "So My point was whether the original text of full bible ( not parts) is available or not??"

    Question thoroughly answered in the above two comments.

  365. Here are what the Muslim texts say about the original Quranic manuscripts:

    "Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost. Thus let him say 'I have acquired what is available.'" – Ibn Umar, As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an

    "Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt." – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.510

    "Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: 'You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you…'" – Sahih al-Muslim 2286

    In what way were the hearts hardened?:

    "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: 'If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.' And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…" – Sahih al-Muslim 2286

    "Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an), yet we leave some of what he recites. Ubayy says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.'" – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.527

    "The prophet is closer to believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers." – Qur'an 33:6

    Quran 33:6 Yusuf Ali Footnote: "In some Qirras, like that of Ubay ibn Kab, occur also the words 'And he is a father of them.'"

    "I heard the prophet saying, 'Learn the Qur'an from four: Abdullah ibn Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin Ka'b.'" – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.521

    So Ubay was the best reciter and includes words we don't have in today's Quran of Zayd ibn Thabit. What did Muhammad think of Zayd ibn Thabit?

    "The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd ibn Thabit." – Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444

    "'O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of Zaid bin Thabit. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man' – and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: 'O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Masahif that are with you, and conceal them.'" – Jami At-Tirmidhi 3104

    So Muhammad did not like Zayd ibn Thabit, but that is the Quran we have today.

    "It was narrated that Aishah said: 'The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.'" – Sunan Ibn Majah 1944

    "Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the Qur'an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of Yamama and that the verse was consequently lost." – Ibn Abi Daud, Kitab al-Masahif

    So the Quran we have today is not complete. See also:

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.509 – Quran passages lost – see also:

    As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an part 3 p. 72

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.509 – didn't want to lose more, so had remainder compiled into manuscript

    Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104 – people started compiling their own manuscripts

    Ibn Abi Daud, Kitab al-Masahif – differing number of chapters

    Sahih al-Muslim 2286, Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.527 – entire chapters lost

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.510 – Uthman put out what he could and burned all of the evidence

    So in conclusion, we see that the Quran of today was not considered the best available at the time, and is missing suras that other versions had, and is missing suras from memory loss, reciters lost in battles, and from being eaten by a sheep. We also see at least one example where a verse reads differently than it did in another version. In addition, modern discoveries of older manuscripts show significant differences from today's Quran, and we also see that all the previous Qurans were burnt by Uthman.

    Original research by David Wood:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91AM7665cbo

  366. There is no original text of the Bible just as there is no original text of the Quran. In this comment I will discuss the Biblical text. In the next comment, I will discuss the Quranic text, and in the third comment, I will discuss your questions.

    The One New Man Bible is a recent translation that says this about the New Testament Greek manuscripts available: It is "… a translation … of the United Bible Society's Fourth Edition Greek text, published in 1993. The editors of that text used a scientific method called Textual Criticism to determine which of the more than five thousand ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were closest to what the authors wrote in the first century. This method is similar to that used by the editors of the ancient Greek classics to determine the most accurate copies of those writings."

    The oldest manuscript fragments date from the 2nd century AD, and the oldest complete manuscripts are even more recent.The majority of available manuscripts date from the 10th century AD.

    For the Old Testament Hebrew manuscripts, the Aleppo Codex (920 AD) and Leningrad Codex (1008 AD) are the oldest Hebrew language manuscripts of the Tanakh. The 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls includes manuscripts a thousand years older of all the books except Esther, but most are fragmentary. These manuscripts generally date to between 150 BC to 70 AD.

    See Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

  367. Not so. The word of God is the word of God regardless of the source. This is just another proof of the Quran's falsehood.

  368. If exist can sanada-10000000 could help me ????

  369. You said, This is a fallacy because the Quran says the Bible is the word of God and that the word of God cannot be altered.""

    The quaran says the Bible is Gods word, is ok. and that the word of God cannot be altered is asserted regarding Quaran not for the Bible.

  370. Dear John K,

    You said "'"Another thing you should realize is that there is no "original" text. The oldest surviving copies are hundreds of years removed from the originals, so the possibility of error transmission is present."""

    I like your writing. So is it not possible that trinity is a theory that is added later as Jesus(Pbuh) himself never claimed he is God or to worship him. It is best suits that he is a messenger of God.

    And also I dont understand what is Godhead.

  371. Dear Ria,

    At first understand my question then answer. I have said that John 3:16 is changed and altered by omitting the world begotten. So how every version remains same. I have given here one example.
    Translation and version is different things. Translation may differ as writers are different. But their should be no versions of the holy scriptures as versions differs each other. The Holy scripture should be in one version that is original text. So the bible have no complete original text but have different translated versions. one version is more latest than the other. So without the original text it is impossible for us to find the authenticity of bible from the different versions of bibles as they differ from each other. So My point was whether the original text of full bible ( not parts) is available or not??

  372. correction ** burden**

  373. So true and so tragic for both martyrs and their victims.

    Yet their criticism is a fallacy. As anyone knows who has tried, repentance and following the Gospel are not easy.

  374. When God make it easy, by taking your burned on him, you complain why is so easy! and so a man come and makes it hard which required your martyrdom for surety of salvaltion, millions follow him to hell.

  375. "Unlike Quran Bible does not loose meaning when translated"

    There's nothing special about Arabic. The meaning can be translated like any other language. What you lose in translations is the ambiance of idioms. You might not be able to translate, "birds of a feather flock together", but you can give the meaning of birds of the same type fly together.

  376. Maruf

    Above is whole chapter 53 from the book of prophet Isaiah. This is a very clear prophecy about Jesus in which each one was fulfilled. These prophecy were about 400 years before christ.

  377. Intellectual, mathematician, and polymath David Berlinski is personally an agnostic, but he finds much evidence in the science that is suggestive that the account found in the Old Testament may be true:

    David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyxUwaq00Rc

  378. You want scientific answers; I suggest you read the book of job in the Old Testament in the language which you understand more. You might finbd better answers than you find in Quran.

  379. Right. Paul said that without hope in Christ, we would all be in despair. This reached its apex during the Existentialist movement when the primary philosophical question was whether we should wait to die or all commit suicide now since we will all die someday and then dissolve into nothingness anyway.

  380. C'mon Grace. Don't play the "devil made me do it" card.

  381. John K, I've tried but just can't stop myself from visiting this site. That's why I need Harrel to ban me permanently from this site.

    Mr Jonathan Harrel, please help me to ban my IP and I believe that it'll do us good. Thanks.

  382. But thank God it is as true. Understanding Bible have taken out lot of uncertainties. I wish we could be the light and salt as Jesus asked us to be even in the virtual world.

  383. "I logically had to come to conclusion if there is a God, Bible makes the most sense. Now if it is not true, I have nothing to loose. God in the Bible is worthy of my worship, praise love and life. He is absolutely holy; he will not tolerate sins, but yet loves the sinner, that he took all our punishment on Him. He is Just and merciful at the same time. A loving Father. If there is a God, he has all the character of what God must have."

    Well said Ria. When I converted, the gentleman who interviewed me for my baptism said that even if it wasn't true, he would still want to live the same way.

  384. Stop being so ridiculous, Grace. If you thought it was in your best interests to stay off this site, you would stay away on your own efforts without having to enlist help from me or Jonathan. You must have posted a dozen comments since you first asked to be banned, so it's obvious that you want to be here. If you really feel you need someone to control you, go check yourself into the psychiatric emergency ward at the hospital and tell them you need to be put in a straight jacket.

  385. John K, John K, don't you know that Jesus Christ is greater than Joseph Smith. So, why a professional dummy like you can so easily fall prey into Joseph Smith's trap of lies and more lies? May I know where is your brain located?

    The Bible says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was GOD(Singular) and not Gods(Plural). So, please do our beloved Lord Jesus Christ a big favour by announcing to all your Mormon friends that Joseph Smith was a liar and that there is only ONE GOD mentioned in the Bible and not 3 gods. B)

  386. Mr Jonathan Harrell, kindly please help me to ban my IP permanently from this site. Thank you for your kindness.

  387. Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

  388. But Islam is contradictory on whether Muhammad can intercede for you or not, so the best advice Islam gives to ensure your salvation is to become a martyr.

  389. Here's a good link on Allah's adulterous relationship:
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/10/1moremusl

  390. "As Muslim's claim of Mohamed's prophet hood hinges on the fact whether the Bible was corrupted or not ?"

    This is a fallacy because the Quran says the Bible is the word of God and that the word of God cannot be altered.

  391. Maruf, why do we complain about afterlife or death? Why didn't we do that before we were born? Why we must exist forever? It's all about your bodily function.

  392. Maruf, love (literal) is absent in the Quran because it's all about duty and submission to Allah. Look at its marriage, it's not based on love too.

  393. Dear Mormon John K, haven't you came to the ultimate conclusion that Joseph Smith was a horrible false prophet and liar after I've proved that there are three persons in one God, not three Gods? Please tell Joseph Smith and all his successors that God has always been a trinity from all eternity: "From everlasting to everlasting, You are God," (Psalm 90:2). The Bible clearly states that there is only ONE GOD and nowhere can you find in the Bible, any verse that substantiate Joseph Smith's horrible claims that there are Gods.

  394. Yes. The best type of Bible for what you are interested in is the Greek text that has an English word below each Greek word. This format will not have readable English text, but it allows you to check the accuracy of the translation of the English edition you are reading.

    The point you made on John 3:16 is trivial because all sons are begotten, otherwise they would not use the word son. But this is another reason the KJV remains popular. The newer translations are sometimes whitewashed for a particular point of view. Another example of this is modern versions that call Mary a maiden instead of a virgin.

    Another thing you should realize is that there is no "original" text. The oldest surviving copies are hundreds of years removed from the originals, so the possibility of error transmission is present.

  395. No. Do a word count on the Quran. The word love does not appear in the context of God loving man or humans loving one another like it does in the Bible. The Bible says God is love, and the greatest commandments are loving God and loving others. The god of the Quran has been called A God Who Hates because the Quran talks more about what Allah hates.

  396. Maruff

    If ypu have kept them all and will keep them all perfect, you might be a human exception and in that case you don't need Christ. Listen to Mohamed.!

  397. So yes you are right your fate will be same as a criminal or non criminal without Christ, because even as good as you think you are you might have broken the law at some point in you life. Here is God's ten general law to abide by, see for your self how many have you broken or will brake in future. I must admit I am guilty at some point I broke them. If not all but some:

    1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
    2. You shall not make unto thee any graven image.
    3. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain.
    4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
    5. Honour your father and your mother.
    6. You shall not murder.
    7. You shall not commit adultery.
    8. You shall not steal.
    9. You shall not bear false witness.
    10. You shall not covet.

  398. "Dear Ria, According to Christianity the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just to the Victim as He is not punishing the rapist. The God should also be Just."

    God does not see you as a rapist or a non rapist. He sees you as sinner or a sinner. Whether you broke one law form the ten commandment or you broke  all the commandments you are a law breaker.  We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, no where in the Bible does it say God's laws are not binding upon man. Keeping the commandments is not the method of salvation, but the fruit of it. Obedience to God is the test of the genuine Christian.1 John 3:4 "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and SIN IS LAWLESSNESS." That means break one law fromthe ten commandment you broke them all. If a man is hanging from a great height by a chain with ten links, and only one link breaks, he falls. The strength of the chain is dependent on its weakest link. If we willingly break one of Gods Ten Commandments, we are as guilty as if we break them all.

  399. When your dead you`re not going to be thinking anything. Nothing bad is going to happen to you, no one is going to hurt you. What is their to be afraid of in the darkness? NOTHING don`t listen to muhammed and these other liars who use our fear of the unknown to control us, becuse they know where the power is and thats the here and now.

  400. Maruf you have a chance! Wake up now! All I ask you to do this. Ask the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob for the truth. He will revel the truth and you will know it. Keep on knocking that door with this question WHO IS JESUS ? IS THE ISLAMIC JESUS TRUE OR IS THE HISTORICAL/Christian Jesus true?

    If Islamic version is true God is merciful and just, he will forgive you if you doubts have no basis. But you got to ask.

  401. I agree with you. You sound to be honestly searching for truth. My Hindu friend who got baptized yesterday is an example for me. She searched because she had a need; she kept on searching till God satisfied her quench. And there are millions like her, who searched.
    Yes I would pray for Ali Sina or your or any Muslim brother or sister regardless whether they are for Islam or against Islam. Muslims is not the enemy. As some one said before "Muslim are the missing piece of my savior heart" It is God's will that none shall perish. Islam is a tool used by Satan to take away millions of soul to hell. Now why else would Islam hinge upon the denial of Christ? It is a Anti-Christ religion ? Do you think God will make Judas look like Christ on the cross to dupe millions through the centuries. God is not in the business of depict. Only Satan is !

  402. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

  403. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

  404. Please read the whole chapter if Isaiah 53, Jews read the same Isaiah and stumble on Isaiah 53, they don't know what to do with this chapter. But it is there in the text

    Isaiah 53
    1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

  405. Old Testament Prophesies about Messiah:
    Isaiah 9 vs 6-7 (old testament about 400 yrs before Christ read like ) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

  406. Here is the Wikipedia link to the Dead Sea scrolls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

    If you have chance to visit the Israel National Treasures you can see the collection of scrolls. If you understand Hebrew of Greek or the ancient language go for it, read it your self . Compare to the copy of Bible you have in hand. It will be the same. As Muslim's claim of Mohamed's prophet hood hinges on the fact whether the Bible was corrupted or not ?
    The Muslims claims the Bible today in our hands are corrupted, but long after the claim, we discover the original text dated to the first century. If the Bible was corrupted the first century Jews and Christians were sorry silly people who corrupted the Bible. But Jews collaborating with Christians to put thing about Jesus in Old testament would be highly unlikely. But if it was corrupted before Mohammed time the Why in Quran does Mohammed tells his followers, if you have any doubts then go and refer the books given before. So Mohamed is tell to refer a corrupted Bible ?

  407. Maruf

    Not only Hebrew and Greek text are available, but the original manuscript is available. The complete manuscript of Isaiah is found. The text in original manuscript in Isaiah is same as the Bible you have in you hand (any translation) I never understand why Muslim can not get over versions and translations. Do you guys not have Quran translated in English by different people. Pickthall version of Quran translated in English or Yusif Ali version of Quran translated in English.

    Old King James Version simple is the version of the Bible translated in old English language by King James. Unlike Quran Bible does not loose meaning when translated to any other language unless deliberately translated wrong.

  408. Mr Mormon John K, please don't lead Mr Maruf astray with Joseph Smith's wrong teachings. Why Mormons don't believe in the Trinity – that there is only one God, when the Bible clearly stated that God is one and not 3 entities? Please dig out your KJV Bible frrom the ground and read Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE!” and 1 Cor 8:4 “Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but ONE.”

    Can you see all the ONE mentioned in the above Bible verses? So, isn't it true that the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a big liar? Kindly heed my kind advice and get out of Mormonism before it is too late. Jesus loves you. :)

  409. Dear John K,

    Yes truth is beneficial for us. If atheism is the truth it will be beneficial on earth during our lifetime. The atheism is neutral for us after death for both the atheist and theist. But I could not wait till my death when the atheism will be absolutely proved.

  410. Dear John K,

    So christianity and Islam is similiar to this both has loving god.

  411. Dear John K,

    I decided to read bibles, which bible I can read. Is there any original text of bible is available in Hebrew and Greek.? As I informed that each version of Bible is different from the other. For example;

    John 3:16
    King James Version (KJV)
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    John 3:16
    New International Version (NIV)
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    Here the word "begotten" is omitted in the NIV .

    So is the original text is available.

  412. God is just. The rapist cannot get out of his personal hell until he repents. When repentance is complete, thorough, and sincere, he will receive forgiveness. But that does not mean an equal reward, for Jesus taught that his Father's house has many mansions.

  413. Yes. Like Peter, James, and John as the early leaders of the church. Peter as the primary leader, but James and John also as his assistants. So God the Father is the one we worship, and who Jesus worships. But Jesus the Son is a God, and the Holy Spirit is also a member of the Godhead.

  414. Dear Ria,

    According to Christianity the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just to the Victim as He is not punishing the rapist. The God should also be Just.

  415. Dear Ria,

    According to you the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just. The should also be Just.

  416. Dear John K,

    You said, Three persons, one purpose.
    Is it three God and one purpose?

  417. Islam will only take you to Hell. Read the Quran, read the Hadiths. As a non Muslim I read your Quran, I had no opinion about Islam before reading it, then when I read your Quran and Hadiths I formed an opinion and it was not a good one. (I read it because I entertain a thought of being married to a Muslim for a while, and he asked me to converted to get married Thankfully it did not work out, because of my strict Christian parents). I am not ashamed of my experience of four years but because of that I learned so much about myself and my God I looked up why Islam is different than Christianity. So I had to look up Christianity, a faith I was just born into, but did not understand . I had no opinion about Christianity. When I understood it, I understood God's heart and his love for me. It is my personal experience and no one can take that away from me.
    It connected for ME. But only after answering all the critiques within my self. I am at peace with myself.

  418. Love is foreign concept for logical human being ? A loving God who does not wants to send you to hell for your sins is foreign concept for a logical human being. ? A God who hate sins but loves the sinner is a foreign concept !! ??

    At least there is A WAY!! Try it !! See if for yourself , see if you become sinless or want to sin less.

  419. What is that supposed to mean?

  420. I have previously given you a comprehensive answer. Don't you read the things people write for you?

    The simple answer is that Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his Father are one. That doesn't mean one person. It means one in purpose. Jesus was not a ventriloquist at his baptism when the voice of the Father came out of heaven saying, "This is My Beloved Son" and the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Three persons, one purpose.

  421. Hi Maruf,

    The abbreviation KJV means the King James Version. It is the most widely used translation, though it is fading in popularity recently in favor of modern English versions. It is not the original text, or even the first English version, nor is it a perfect translation.

    The reason it remains a preferred translation is because it was written in an era when people were still cognizant of a high language for literature as art (belles lettres) that was considered more appropriate for the sacred content.

    I use the KJV myself, but personally I find the difficulty of the language to be a distraction from understanding the content at times, so I also use the J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English when reading for comprehension rather than devotional purposes. Similarly I prefer Bill Warner's Koran because it likewise flows in easy modern English. Both Phillips and Warner use complete sentence structures rather than let the verse structure interrupt the train of thought.

    The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek. In my edition of the KJV, while the KJV text is intact, scholars have thoroughly gone over the original Greek and Hebrew and added footnotes to the King James text to indicate a clearer meaning where the old English is archaic or if they felt the translation was not rendered accurately.

  422. Dear enlightened25,

    You said, The atheist can prove that their is no god or afterlife.
    Proving no god is not beneficial for us. In no god situation we theists and atheist all are same destined.
    So no we should try for the true God.

  423. Dear John K,

    You are telling from some versions of Bibles. Which is the bibles original text?

  424. Yes again a foreign concept for a logical human being.

  425. Dear Ria,

    You said,

    for just a very few seconds, God the Father couldn't stand the sight of Him.

    The more odd explanation attracts more questions. if the father seperated from the son for a few second than how the 3 =1.

    I have not found in Islam no such odd explanation.

  426. You Write : And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible.
    My Post
    [BTW Bible don't say the Jesus takes away the sin so a Christian become sinless, but for sure if they are truly saved the sin less. (Hope you understood the pun). Actually what Bible say is Jesus died for your sin, so you don't have to PAY for your sin. And why does He pay for my sin, simple answer is He loves me. And if I love my Child beyond myself, I would also die for for him/her. And about consequence of sin, you pay for the consequence (like you contract a disease for sexual sin, or go to jail of theft and get killed if you don't live by the law of the land etc), but God does not send you to Hell eternally for your mistake and sins. Again foreign concept for a muslim, God is love in Bible for he say "For God so love the world" ]

  427. Now why did Jesus cry out "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?" As His mission reached its fulfillment and He was held personally responsible for all sin. Because, with that immense load of guilt, our guilt, upon Him, for just a very few seconds, God the Father couldn't stand the sight of Him. He and Father are never separated ever before in infinity. Now is the time were father for a MOMENT can not stand the Son, thus the Son cries out, it is His love for His father and vice a verse. Again this is a forgein concept to a Muslim, because there is no concept of love in Islam.]

  428. You Wrote : If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it.

    My Post :
    [Yes you need to rectify your thoughts before you pen it. You need to read the whole chapter to understand what is the going on …not just read out of context. For you let me quote at least the whole verse

    •"And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani. And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. And the curtain of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing Him, saw that He thus breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!" (Mark 15:33-34,37-39)"

  429. You Wrote: I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ???

    My post:
    [What is your point? You think Christians in any society, specially West who devote their life in researching Bible did not see what you saw and learned and thought it is your got ya! moment, Seriously !! To understand what a Christian concept of trinity, it is not a skin deep topic as you say it so casually" So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? " It take time and effort to research and understand things. I think that is foreign to Muslims because they just repeat what they hear from Zakir Naik or others like him. Take time to read and research what Christian scholars say about Trinity and not what Muslim scholars thinks]

  430. \”I don\’t know much about Islam, but I know there is peace in it\”

    Maybe you should first inform yourself about Islam and then make that judgement. There is no peace in Islam. You will come to see this fact when you know it better.

  431. Mr' Sina, I wish to say that when we are chagrined with life, we tend to believe only what we see and reject the incomprehensible. There is Love, Existence, Life which is the real definition of God. I am secure in my conviction of God. God is sexless, non-partisan and father/mother to all. The New Age movement are the very ones who're defining God in a newer scientific light, albeit with a lot of superstitious tinge. Please don't be in a hurry to claim to know everything about life, we do not know even an iota of anything. Don't dismiss God with a wave of hand for God defined as the perfectly still zero is the balm that calms every soul. Look within you, there you will see God in silence. Skeptics like you (I do not mean the word derogatorily, but as a label) who're atheists remove the beauty of God from man. Nietzche's God was dead, but God still exists in our collective unconscious. The fall of Europe is because of its crass materialism and atheism. America is on because of the consciousness of God. No religion has the answer. God is beyond religion, but his messengers came to give us a touch of love which we erroneously translated to religion. Finally, I wish to say that your diatribe on Islam bothers on frustration and hate. No matter what you may let us believe. I don't know much about Islam, but I know there is peace in it at least the sufis are peaceful. Please use your energy for something better. Islam is not the problem, people are. And you're starting a hate-filled wildfire. Shalom.

  432. We're banning people who are using vulgarity against members. We are also blacklisting whole IP range. If we find any person using abusive language against anyone, he will be banned permanently from commenting. Also please help us moderate comments by reporting any vulgarity.

    Some people who have a long history of abused have been black listed and every time they comment, it is going straight to the additional moderation filter where I check it once a week.

    We want everyone of you to start a conversation and we will not ban anyone even if he is against us, just make sure you follow our terms of commenting.

    We get lots of comments and probably you won't see this much commented articles anywhere, it is very hard for us to moderate every comment, so we don't moderate, please help us by reporting abusive comments so that we can filter the bad guys.

  433. This post is duplicated. I already answered in the other thread.

  434. Hi Maruf,

    Thanks for your questions.

    The Christian Godhead actually consists of three persons.

    God the Father in Hebrew is Elohim, and in the English Bible (KJV) is usually (but not always) rendered by the translators as "God".

    The Son, Jesus Christ, in Hebrew is Jehovah (YHWH) (I AM), and is usually rendered in the KJV as "Lord".

    The Holy Spirit is rendered in older translations as Holy Ghost, but the English sense of the word "ghost" has entered more into the category of superstition, so it is used less in modern translations.

    Jesus told the disciples to be one as He and his Father are one. So the three members of the Godhead are one in purpose like the 12 apostles were one in purpose. They are not one entity. Your example of Jesus on the cross calling to his Father is a good one, and another good example is the baptism of Jesus where the voice of the Father spoke to him from heaven and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. So clearly these are separate persons. Jesus was not a ventriloquist projecting his voice into heaven to say he was pleased with himself.

    The New Testament, especially Paul's letters spends a lot of time explaining that the reason Jesus had to come and pay the price for our sins is precisely what you are talking about – the law of the gospel and the law of Moses both condemn us because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

    Since Jesus was the only perfect man to ever walk the earth, the rest of us would be cast out of heaven forever. Since Jesus paid our debt for us, we are released from debtor's prison and eligible to enter heaven.

    This is on the condition of repentance, which means trying your best not to sin anymore. So people who behave badly would be excluded, but the Bible says there are only two sins too serious to be forgiven – murder and sin against the Holy Ghost.

    There is some indication that those who were not aware of the law can be forgiven. There are some testimonies from Muslims ex-terrorists that say they found Christ and experienced forgiveness.

    Afshins's Story – Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3VqbhVDtM

    Kamal's story
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccio1vE41M

  435. Double junk post, auntie. xD

    Try to answer queries here, will ya? He already explained that Harrel has his user name.

  436. So, try to find its "true" attribute using your rationality. Don't get stuck to some dogmas. You have already decided before searching it if you insist to use certain belief to search a fact. Find it first then use it. Are you aware that god can do anything? I mean, literally, anything? This opens new possibility, be it good or bad.

  437. @ sina

    Do you and Jonathan Harrell share a computer? Or you are him?

    I noticed that the poster's name of "You should suggest that he read my book. The new edition is being translated into Tamil." has changed from yours to Jonathan Harrell.

  438. Dear Sanada_10,

    I want to say that recognizing the true GOD is the first of all. Then the other things.

  439. Dear John K,

    Could you pls explain me the following because I am perplexing about the things::

    I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it. And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible. There may be some flaws as we see in between pastors, bishops who sexually abuses the teens and commits sins. So what will be the consequences of the sins committed by him long after believing Jesus (PBUH).

  440. I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it. And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible. There may be some flaws as we see in between pastors, bishops who sexually abuses the teens and commits sins. So what will be the consequences of the sins committed by him long after believing Jesus (PBUH).

  441. So, you decided not to play probability anymore (heaven and hell must exist)? Your assumption is fixed here. Why is that? Are you playing cherry picked wager? Are you sure you are on the right way to classify yourself as truth seeker because when you start putting your own answer to your own question, you won’t be one.

  442. Dear Sanada_10,

    Thanks.
    According to me after recognising the true God then concept of heaven and hell will come.

  443. I agree with you. Focus should be on the living Christ, not the dead and suffering Christ. Some in hospitals have said that a crucifix helped them in their suffering, but certainly it has no place in worship services, and, as you said, takes on the aspect of idol worship.

  444. So, You are not too selfish after all but how could you follow the selfish concept of heaven and hell? Does that mean that you are already prepared for your mom's death as long as you are safe?

    Since you don't know it then on what purpose god does that to you? What strange thing he possibly has in mind while he deliberately confuses you like this? What kind of frame you put when you think about "god's teaching"? Can religion in your search list answer these questions?

    If you want to play similar wager you should add the possibility, not using the old Pascal's. Everything progresses, Maruf.

  445. There is nothing eerie about the simple Johrei calligraphy scoll. The Chinese/Japanese character meaning "light" was written on it in black ink. It is a miracle that Divine Light emanates from it.
    When I saw an idol of Jesus hanging from a cross in a church I felt eerie. Why is it neccessary to remember the suffering of a man in a happy place where we sing hymes to praise God ?

  446. For a change try the universal Divine Light at Johrei centres. Click "Johrei UK/USA/Asia/ Austrlia n u can find the centre nearest to yr home. The test of the pudding is in the eating.

  447. 5 or 6! what a laugh! Muslims are leaving Islam by the millions. And that is a statistic from an Imam asking what can be done to reverse that. Your survey isn't very scientific Maruf.

    And so what if everyone was becoming a Muslim? Would that make Islam good? No, it would just increase the number of people suffering. I thought you were looking for a new religion. What happened to that?

  448. You should know this is a fallacy called Ad Populum or Appeal to Popularity. Humans love to fool themselves by submitting themselves to someone else, they don`t have to think that way and face reality. If you doubt that, then look at all these charlatans who fooled millions of gullible fools.

  449. Youtube? Wow! That is amazing.
    Have they considered the research conducted by the late Dr. Ilyas Yunus that stated around 75 percent Americans left Islam after just a few year being a convert?
    And have they considered also the number of people who have left Islam worldwide?
    I am willing to bet that the number of people who have left Islam is a great understatement. Considering Islam encourages killings of apostates and all.

  450. Dear Sanada,

    You said, """"Now, imagine you and your mother were inside a burning house. Your mother got locked up and couldn't get out because of the fire. What would you do? You run alone and you would be saved or you took the risk to save her? """"
    If I see that it has a possibility to save her than I will take a risk to save her.
    If I see that it is impossible to save her than I will not go to save her.

    You said, """"With all of these, I shall add another question to you. Does god want you to be selfish or is it just a test for you? Can god lie? Playing wager is like this, Maruf.""""

    I can't answer this because I have not yet found the true God and His teachings.

    I have not knew about the Pascal wager earlier, Ali Sina informed me about the wager. Accidentally my thought was became similar as Pascal. I was surprised that this thought is not new.

  451. and… what is the source? xD

  452. and add also,
    yearly 4000 converts to muslim in Germany
    4200 in England
    20000 in USA and other countries……………………………..cont……………………………….
    and much more video in Youtube but against them a few muslims ( 5 or 6 yearly) converts to other faiths but have no video.

  453. "this refers to all the gods from every conceivable religion"

    It's not possible to make such a sweeping generalization. You might cast out the religion that has the correct God.

  454. I strongly concur too, shafeek.

  455. Someone, (I don't remember who) said – "I cannot have faith in a god conceived by the human mind" and this refers to all the gods from every conceivable religion extant or extinct; I strongly concur.

  456. That's the idea, to always be seeking refinement and improvement of our concepts through new information and insights.

  457. Alisina never say u are not supposed to oppose him logically.
    thats the difference.
    For free book selling: I would say: Why not Muslim shopkeeper distribute free Quran.
    Same for if you are christian Hindu or anything.
    I am not fan of Alisina, nor I am completely agreeing to him. But I advocate freethinking and allow him to say what he want to.

    About myself I have a certain concept based on logic what I have observed. If someone can logically prove my concepts wrong I am ready to change my those set of concepts rather practicing fools concept.
    That is logical way evaluating things ,if you have a better logic to prove this wrong please let me know

  458. Hi Maruf,

    Well can you mention all the surah and ayat numbers where this scientific revelations have been given ?
    Let me clarify I am an Atheist.
    So lets consider hindu scripture , where they say , souls can neither be created nor destroyed but changes one fomr to another.
    Some intelligent of 21st century related this to conservations of energy and indestructibility of atom.
    You read all the Hindu scriptures and you would find more number of such scientific facts than that are present in Quran.
    Hindu have several religious book containing multiple times of knowledge than is contained in Quran.
    Do I am sounding like I am Hindu, which I am not.
    What I mean here is any relgious book conatain mattre that can be realted to sceince, but that juts amattre fo concidence.

    Let me explain this further:
    Verse 30, Surah Al-Ambiya (21) Para 17
    Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were one piece. Then, we parted them.

    21 st Century Islamic intelligence claim this to be the revelations of formations of Universe.

    Now their are two means to interpreting this:
    1. The one is relating it to science as formation of Universe.
    2. The other is : We as Sons/daughter of Adam were born on earth which was like heaven. God become furious on us and sent us to reality and in the way separating earth and heaven. The earth was no more like heaven thereafter.
    Also please note Heaven is not space, heaven is a place containing land and trees and river (as per Quran) with all goodness.
    So separating heaven from earth means separating a good place and earth. So in no way it looks as a story of formation of Universe.

    Similar case apply to hindu and other religions. You can relate any way you like.

    You read all the scriptures and can relate them to science, but this actually depend upon what conclusion we wanna derive.
    You have born as an Muslim, that why you wanna relate it this way.

    I am an atheist I wanna relate it my way.
    Also adding to my point I must say if god wanna reveal things than why has he wrote unclear Jargon which can create ambiguity , why not clear cut explanations. He is the almighty who can explain thing in the best possible manner understandable to man.

    read all other explanation given in Quran, I am sure I can relate them the other way.
    You do not want to hear me because U want it to relate it your way (and same for me).

    Now just think of you were born as an Hindu and you read their scriptures and found such facts in their book written 1000s of year prior to Quran, you might have believed in Hinduism more firmly.(and believe me such Jargon are written in hindu scripture as well)
    Similar is the case for other religions.

    If any scripture claims that this is true word of god why any topic is explained in Jargon.

    Further adding I can tell you several mistake in each religious books:

    example:
    ex1.: as per Quran: An-Nisa(Chapter 4 verses 19 :25)
    Explaining to whom we should marry and to whom we should not.
    Now as we all are son and daughter of Adam and Eve (first man and women) as per Quran.
    Adam is the prophet of Allah, that means he did all what allah told.
    So hoe we were born than ? as because allah say you cannot marry your direct sisters.

    So how can Prophet Adam allow their sons and daughter to marry each other and produce children.

    No Offense against the God or Allah, what I wanna say God words can never be false, they must satisfy all the terms and conditions as he perfect.

    And you keep on searching Quran or any other religious book you can point out several mistakes in them. IF god has written them why they are wrong.

    Now to conclude What I want to say, is as per Zakir Naik, that as god has given as canine teeth to eat meat(I am a vegetarian and i think Zakir naik is an idiot which I would prove later) . the same god has given us Brain to think and evaluate.
    Think , think and think. For how to think read anekantavad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada

  459. John K, USA is a very big country to infiltrate n there are too many skeptics like u, esp. the rich n powerful who have their specialist doctors to care for them. Johrei may take a slow n steady approach but many want instant miracles. Frankly speaking, most medicines are poisons as they are not our natural food n have side n after effects. Many surgeries are quite unnecessary just because the surgeons want to make money. Many specialist doctors simply overcharge, or give unnecessary medicines n “extra” treatments to gain more profits. Some give wrong diagnosis n the patients suffer unnecessarily. Don't blame them coz they had spent fortunes to earn their medical degrees n to set up their medical practices. MONEY MAKES THE MEDICAL WORLD GO ROUND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO PAY THROUGH YOUR NOSE.

  460. Right. 20 centers aren't many in such a large country. A large city like LA could easily have 20 centers alone since the city is so big that if you live on one side, wanting to see something on the other side is as bad as a trip to another state.

  461. I missed this announcement on the server upgrade. On Sep 6 they said they would have the technical difficulties solved in a few hours. As the saying goes, everything takes longer than you thought.
    http://alisina.org/server-problems

  462. There about 20 johrei centers in the USA, as it is a very big country to infiltrate. Click “ Johrei USA” . under it u click “ visit us – Johrei fellowship “. U will find all the centers in the US, including the centers in L. A. , San Francisco n San Jose with their phone Nos n emails listed. NOTHING VENTURE NOTHING GAIN.  

  463. Hi,

    I thought you were in Malaysia? Did you move, or just travelling?

    All 3 of Ali Sina's sites get attacked from time to time, so it may not necessarily be your country blocking it.

    What you can do is access one of the article pages. You can still get the conversation updates there in the right hand column.

    If you have to use the cached copy, Intense Debate will still load the comments section even if AliSina.org is down.

    Hope this helps.

    John

  464. Dear John K,  Condolences to the victims of many natural disasters happening now in the USA. In this age of baptism by fire n water, everyone directly or indirectly wll be affected. So be prepared for the worst. Beware of earthquakes in California. The access to alisina.org in my country, Thailand, has been blocked. Can u please teach me how to by-pass this blockade. I have used bulwark but it take a long time to reach the cached copy. Lately, I can’t even reach the cached copy. Please help. Thank u.

  465. Dear John K,  Condolences to the victims of many natural disasters happening now in the USA. In this age of baptism by fire n water, everyone directly or indirectly wll be affected. So be prepared for the worst. Beware of earthquakes in California. The access to alisina.org in my country, Thailand, has been blocked. Can u please teach me how to by-pass this blockade. I have used bulwark but it take a long time to reach the cached copy. Lately, I can’t even reach the cached copy. Please help. Thank u.

  466. I'm sorry for your friend's tumor, but a recently released study found no connection to cell phone usage.

  467. POLLUTION OF THE AIR, WATER, SOIL AND HUMAN BODIES ARE GETTING INCREASINGLY ACUTE. In another 50 years, this earth is not a livable place. In our homes we have dirty electricity abound – diseases-causing radiation from our electrical appliances. Low radiation also affects our brains when listening to cell phones. We receive mercury fumes from dental amalgam daily. The air n water we breath and drink contain harmful chemicals. The food we eat contains Insecticides, pesticides n other harmful metals. More n more of these pollutants are causing us all kinds of diseases, some of which are incurable. HELP ! Do we need God's light to battle these diseases. Read the reports from wikipedia in my next posting.

  468. Right. Keep trying to impress me. I suppose you haven't seen my two posts on the LHC on this site.

    You obviously have no real training in science because of the nonsense things you say about what science can prove. Who cares if the Higgs Boson is revealed or not? It means absolutely nothing theologically. It's only value is for the advancement of science.

    Who are you to decide when God should or shouldn't reveal himself? There are plenty of top Christian scientists. Why should we even listen to a nobody in the comments section?

  469. "The entire line of reasoning is fallacious. The existence or non-existence of God is beyond the ability of science to prove or disprove"

    This is not true. In a very short time time, science will once and for all prove whether or not God exists.

    To end the discussion once and for all, scientists at CERN have built the world's largest (and most expensive) machine called the Large Hadron Collider. They want to recreate the Big Bang in miniature and see if the experiment reveals the so-called Higgs Boson. The Higgs Boson is a theoretical particle that has the ability to "seemingly create mass on its own" (thus it is sometimes referred to as the God particle). Theoretically, the Higgs Boson should reveal itself right at the moment of Big Bang. If the Higgs Boson is not revealed, this will be the last nail in the coffin for people believing in God.

    On August 22 scienctists at CERN stated that they confirmed with 95 % certainty the NON-EXISTENCE of the Higgs Boson (God particle) at mid- range energy collisions. They still need to search for the Higgs Boson at high and low energy range collisions. The final conclusive results will be ready in about 12 months.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-145

    If God won't even reveal himself at the moment of Big Bang, it means that he doesn't exist.

  470. Your entire post is full of fallacies. How many religious people did you interview to discover that "Religious people always think that they have nothing to lose if they believe"?

    All it takes is one religious person to disagree, and you have made a liar out of yourself.

    The entire line of reasoning is fallacious. The existence or non-existence of God is beyond the ability of science to prove or disprove. So your essay could equally be rewritten as follows:

    "But considering the evidence, it is much more controversial to claim that God(s) does not exist than claiming God(s) do exist. So far, atheists have no evidence supporting their views.

    As long as there is no evidence that God(s) does not exist, the theists are right. The burden of evidence lies on atheists, and therefore they have much more to lose than theists. Just look at the various dicussions on the internet: It is always the atheists who try to find evidence of God(s)' non-existence everywhere. Theists can just sit back and laugh at their stupidity and childish attempts to prove themselves. Atheists know they got nothing and it hurts and torments them.

    The reason why people don't believe in God(s) is because they don't want to think. Everytime atheists can't explain something they blame it on God(s)' non-existence and just leave it there. These are the so-called laws of nature. It is only a matter of time before thinking people (theists) solve them. Miracles have nothing to do with God(s) doing this and that. They can all be explained by God's use of natural laws. Everything has a logical explanation.

    Atheists wish God(s) are product(s) of our primitive ancestors' imagination. Atheists reflect their projection of our ancestors' insecurities (this is also why atheists fear God might be real) and lack of understanding of the world they lived in. Once you understand this, you will understand that you won't lose anything by believing in God(s).

    - All thinking men are theists -"

    See Ann Coulter:

    The Flash Mob Mentality of Scientific Inquiry
    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45747

  471. This is typical. Religious people always think that they have nothing to lose if they believe. Like it is the atheists who have to prove themselves. But considering the evidence, it is much more controversial to claim that God(s) exist than claiming God(s) don't exist. So far, theists have no evidence supporting their views.

    As long as there is no evidence of God(s) the atheists are right. The burden of evidence lies on religious people, and therefore they have much more to lose than atheists. Just look at the various dicussions on the internet: It is always the theists who try to find evidence of God(s) everywhere. Atheists can just sit back and laugh at their stupidity and childish attempts to prove themselves. Religious people know they got nothing and it hurts and torments them.

    The reason why people believe in God(s) is because they don't want to think. Everytime religious people can't explain something they blame it on God(s) and just leave it there. These are the so-called miracles. It is only a matter of time before thinking people (atheists) solve them. Miracles have nothing to do with God(s) doing this and that. They can all be explained by natural laws. Everything has a logical explanation.

    God(s) are product(s) of our primitive ancestors' imagination. They reflect our ancestors' insecurities (this is also why religious people fear God) and lack of understanding of the world they lived in. Once you understand this, you will understand that you won't lose anything by not believing in God(s).

    – All thinking men are atheists –

  472. ALLah hu Akbar, pray 5 times a day and fast in the month of Ramadan, slaughter the infidels and conquer the world in the name of Allah to land in an imaginary paradise and to get the services of 72 virgins with trillions of others.
    Allah hu akbar, Muslims killing Muslims b'coz of wrong input of messages. And the ragtag army could not fight with the enemies b'coz it is at the receiving end of the remote-controlled missiles and bombs (drones attack ).
    Allah hu akbar, MISSION TERMINATING. AND PEACE WILL REIGN ON EARTH.
    BTW, "ALLAH" SOUNDS LIKE " I LIE ". And the loud speakers blasting 5 time a day, " I LIE IS THE GREATEST ".

  473. Ha! Nice user name! Glad you finally got your own!

  474. Hi Maruf, Join Johrei and receive the light of God to prove the presence of God. I doubt you have a Johrei center in your Muslim country. Check the net.
    Don't let your life be hijacked by the evil cult which never bring any happiness to its followers. It asked its followers to fight n kill, and they are sacrified as pawns to do the dirty works.
    Wake up, fellow human and don,t be the slave of any imaginary god. Free yourself from the shackles of Arab imperialism. Good luck to you.

  475. "Every single religion out of 100 will be correct, the probability is 1% for each." This is not true at all they could all be false. And even if one of them were true say islam then christianity, judaism, hinduism etc would all be 100% false. Of course non of these religions or gods are true. The atheist can prove that their is no god or afterlife.

  476. You don't answer a question with another question, Maruf. We, human, naturally always wants to save ourselves in every circumstances be it small or big. This is the self defensive trait we have as a creature and often lead us to selfish acts. We got it because of our bodily function and this is just our, religiously speaking, temporal host. This function can be damaged if humans have disease, mental defect, and disorder. If this is damaged humans cannot think like the way they usually do and of course this is also odd from religious point of view.

    Why could religious people commit suicide? It's because this function is gone, overwhelmed by their despair on this earth. I've asked you another question too, remember? It was about eating.

    Now, imagine you and your mother were inside a burning house. Your mother got locked up and couldn't get out because of the fire. What would you do? You run alone and you would be saved or you took the risk to save her?

    With all of these, I shall add another question to you. Does god want you to be selfish or is it just a test for you? Can god lie? Playing wager is like this, Maruf.

  477. Dear Sanada_10,

    I will answer you first you answer the question that "" Why you should not save yourself first""""

  478. Why do you want to save yourself first? It is in here and here

  479. "So according to Probability theory my religion Islam, it will be correct, its probability is 1%."

    That assumes they are all equal, or in other words, that you cannot tell the differences. If you have 100 black boxes, then each has a 1% probability. But if you can open each box and examine its contents, you can reduce the probabilities by finding the ones that can't be right, like Islam for instance.

    You say you won't find out Islam is wrong until the next life, but there is ample proof, both physical and ethical that prove Islam is wrong. You can learn that for yourself here and now. Dr. Sina's writings facilitate that because he has organized a complex field of data that would take more time for you to unravel for yourself. But anyone with a conscience and a Quran can read and learn for himself that Islam is not from God.

    Have you tried to pray and ask God and find out if prayer works or if it is a fraud? My church was started because a 14 year-old farm boy took James 1:5 literally:

    "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

    The Book of Mormon is also the world's only book that promises that if you read it and ask God, he will tell you that is is true. This vastly narrows the odds. Read the Book of Mormon. It will change your life:

    Moroni 10

    "3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your chearts.

    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=e

  480. Hi Maruf,

    You want me to suggest any other better religion than Islam. Actaully any religion is better than Islam. However, I have answered this question thoroughly. Please read it here. http://alisina.org/which-religion-is-good/

  481. Dear Sanada_10,

    what was your question? could you repeat here?

  482. Like I said, you are limiting the wager here. You took an assumption that god only exists and must exists through these religions. How about old and new religion, how about future religion, how about another possibility? Maruf, religions are more than 100. Do you want to study it all? You don't have enough time, I assure you. Btw, you still haven't answered my questions. So far no religion can prove its claim. It's like there is no real house available. Giving it 1 % is too much.

  483. Dear wiser433,

    You Said """""you should imagine that you live in a danger or burning home and somebody tells you to go out from there, will that person who tells you to go out from a danger house need to provide you a house"""""

    The argument is that Mr. Sina says the house(religion Islam) where I currently live in, is a wrong one or bad or poses danger which will be proved after my death (assuming God exists). If God not exists than every person is equal destined whether religious or atheist.

    We suppose that there are 100 different religions in the world.
    So according to Probability theory my religion Islam, it will be correct, its probability is 1%.
    Christianity will be correct, its probability is also 1%. Hinduism 1%, Judaism 1%, Every single religion out of 100 will be correct, the probability is 1% for each.

    If I now came out of my religion(home) I even loses my Islams 1% also. If a christian becomes atheist than he/she also looses 1%. Similarly it is also applicable for every other religious persons.
    I am taking 0% instead of 1% by becoming an atheist.
    Therefore Mr.Sina must suggest me any other better religion(Home) that Islam because I am even loosing my 1% hope to 0% hope. So why I will go to a loosing position.
    Therefore I suggest myself not to become 1% to 0%, rather suggest to become 1% to 100% by doing some homeworking about existing religions.

  484. Right. It's easy to be all bluff and bluster in public, but at night when you close your eyes, sometimes the memories of things people said come back to haunt.

  485. The problem is located in muslim's mentality. They think that everyone is the same with them. They always use their own standard to judge others.

  486. like Mr Ali said, do not use other violent to justify islam violent. Mr Ali do not claim as messenger of God while muhammad did, and Mr. Ali do not have a follower, while muhammad have many devoted and willing to die for him and the most important things Mr Ali do not a raper, looter, massacre and so on like muhammad did. damn i really hate this man.

  487. Oh! totally agree with wiser, Well said. Mr Sina is kind enough to dedicate his time to warn others from a evil cult. But finding alternative does not fall on Dr Sina plate.

  488. May be. But he is still hearing the truth about Islam. Never know he might walk away some day and the credit would go to Dr Sina :)

  489. Hi Maruf,

    your analogy like if there is someone that asking you to leave your home then you ask him to provide you better home is not correct. you should imagine that you live in a danger or burning home and somebody tells you to go out from there, will that person who tells you to go out from a danger house need to provide you a house ? even a better house ? you are lucky to be saved and to be told to get out, and you should thank for it, you are grown up man you can think and build your own better better house after that. a real real house.
    God Only Creates the material and We are the one who build our house.

  490. How about Jaka Semprul?

  491. jaka jaka what a long dumb list of words you says…..NO USE AT ALL… hahahaha …. i will follow your above example as other dumb muslims do to follow mohmet your "precious"… hahhahaha….

  492. no kweeceng, you are the dumbest like your mohmet's camel…. hahahaha….

  493. keceng… sure you do your homework… as imbecil you need it… read your quran or die! hahahaaha…..

  494. ahaha…. you got the message..
    It's all about defending ISLAMOFACISM…
    as simple as that..

  495. kweeceng….you are soooo clever my dear friend… i like you…. especially your mouth, my friend…. but sorry, i dont care about your fussing about salahudin or harun or else from your nasty islam world…. hahahahaa… go to hell….

  496. Mohmet is only an opportunist who fools millions of ignorant peoples of the world, trying to make wealth out of others' sufferings….his ultimate argument as simple as: surrender yourself to my alter ego "ALLAH" or you die/suffer…
    Muh promotes HIS "GOLDEN" rule… ALL HUMANS have to submit themselves to ISLAM or die/suffer…
    so of course islam always says bad things about non-muslims IF they have already enough apparent real POWER to oppress non-muslims in any countries….
    Muh and friends say their GOLDEN rule: oppress HUMANS for ISLAM (read: his wealth)
    Muh and friends say their Golden Rule to get wealth out of others' sufferings so that they can enjoy their fucking lives….. hahahahaha….

  497. wirosableng,
    islam says.. buy my quran please… or your head will be chopped off
    give your donation to our mosque or your life will be disturbed…
    ahhaaaahaa…. the world will be much relieved without islamofacism
    the world will be better without wirosableng cs…
    hahhaaaaaa….
    do not waste your life listen to islam bullshit fuckin mouth….like your ass, wirosableng….

  498. yes.. kweeceng you must follow your mohmet to kill, rape, plunder, threaten all non muslims… and dont forget marry a baby girl like your precious mohmet.. walk your talk hahahaha….

  499. Why make it complicated. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his Father are one. He did not intend for the disciples to be merged together into one entity.

    The Trinity means that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose, not one and the same being. Jesus was not being a ventriloquist when he was baptized and the voice of the Father came out of heaven saying, "This is my Beloved Son" and the Holy Spirit came down in the form of the dove.

    Or who was he turning to for comfort when he hung on the cross and called out to know why his Father had forsaken him? Too often we strain to make things complicated when they are simple.

  500. My question to you is you have no problem God created these this the way it is. Yet you question the Creator how He can exist. You put Him in a box, just because you don't understand. You question how can, and my question is Why not.

  501. But also ponder on the following meanwhile if you want to hear the Biblical Trinity, not the concocted Muslim version of Trinity:
    Tell me how can one plus one plus one equal one and not three ? How is that Maruf (body) Maruf (mind) Maruf(soul) makes one Maruf, but still have very different three entities in one person.

    How is the sun, the heat(energy) from sun, and the light from the sun, are three different element but originate from the same source.
    In an atom-Electrons, protons and neutrons are three different sub atomic particles but yet it is a single atom. Three are so different in nature, it always existed the way it is, one did not come before another, one is not more important than other, their function are different in nature, it does not contradict each other but builds the same atom.
    Water: Exist in three phase (state), solid, liquid and gas. Different state, serves different purpose, but yet same in nature.

  502. If you want and answer which is truthful? Or are you being like other Muslims, they ask this question yet they don't want to hear the truth. They walk away with the same per-opinionated concept of Trinity. Most of them boastfully think that they are superior in faith because they worship one God. Yet they lack the knowledge of the concept. They think this question will humiliate the Christian and they will have no answer. Please let me know if you fall in the same category:

  503. Maruf

    Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.

  504. Maruf

    Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.

  505. Maruf

    Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.

  506. Islam definitely is a religion that encourages selfishness and self-gratification at the expense of others. Muhammad got so much of his critical early support from greedy people who didn't care about selling their souls to the devil in religious matters and jumped on the bandwagon to participate in the loot, rape and sex slaves.

  507. Again very well said. You have your thoughts very well organized.

  508. So basically religion doesn’t teach morality at all according to you but it teaches human instinct instead. That means Muhammad was also a selfish person who utilized the very basic instinct of human race.

    What I mean is: why do you even love yourself first? This is just human nature to survive in harsh environment, a product of our brain function, something we only have when we are alive. Imagine you and your friend got trapped in rubbles without anything edible at all. Both of you had only left one ration, what would you do? Share it or keep it to yourself? If there was no more left what would you do?

    Another question, why do we want to eat?

    You also missed my question about another possibility. Are you Pascal's follower?

  509. Huh? Your behavior doesn't make other think if you know what I mean. Deliver the message proportionally, not like this. That's a cheap ad.

  510. John

    Being around so many Muslims and befriending them I see that modern day Muslims are just like good old Pharisees. Can you eat this; this is haram, that is halal. They have because so consumed by the outward appearance that in the process they forget about cleaning them self from inside. It amazes me that they think if they do wash them self, God will accept there prayers. Jesus rightfully describes, you clean the cup from out side but don't clean the cup from inside, you are like the grave which looks good from outside, but inside of the grave is rotten.

  511. Well, the great commandments are to love thy neighbor as thyself and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    So if you don't love others as much as you love yourself, you are falling short of the standard. We all do, but the first step to doing something about it is to recognize it.

  512. I am thinking as well as making others to think. Don't mind. Also applicable for you.

  513. The person lies who tells that he love others more than himself.

  514. Right. Dr. Sina himself expresses that before he studied Islam he also thought it was good. There's an article about Moroccan women at Freedom Bulwark that talks about Muslims who are so illiterate about Islam that everything is measured against the standard that if it is good, it is Islamic, and if it is bad, it is un-Islamic. While Islam may claim some success at having brought these people under its subjugation, it's really a flimsy foundation and such people are subject to losing their love for Islam as soon as they start learning something.

  515. Love you enimes is part of the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament. Audience of this sermon were Jewish people, who were followers of law. Specially Pharasies Who wanted to just keep the law to please good, but Jesus illustrate that mearly keeping these laws are not enough. If you don't kill, but you have the hatered into you heart, what is the point. You did not comit adultrey but are buring in lust, what is the point of keeping the law.When Jesus said we are to love our enemies, He was creating a new and higher standard for relationships. He says loving those who love us is easy and even unbelievers can do that. He commands us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” by using an analogy of the sun rising and the rain falling on both the good and the evil, Jesus ask us to leave the judgement to God himself, but again he did not say ever that you shall not defend yourself.

  516. Amen to that brother. You must try. " Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you ".
    And when you find the truth you will know it, because you will have peace and never once will you have doubts that you can't overcome.

  517. John I agree with you. I have lot of respect for Dr Sina and his work.. I understand leaving Islam can be dangerous for one, and is unlike leaving any other faith. And now because of his work lot of people can see what real Islam is. I had muslim friends who are good people but have no clue about real Islam and the founder of their faith. One searching for the answer just have to read quran in conjuction to Dr Sina's work.

  518. Everyone has to find God in their own personal spiritual experiences and studies.

    Everyone is born with a conscience. Follow your conscience and practice the Golden Rule, and you will be way ahead.

  519. So, here's the situation. You believe Pascal (who ironically was a Christian) more than anything on this earth because you don't even add another possibility. Tell me, is this selfish or not?.

  520. Their own philosophers were/are atheists, and agnostics.

  521. If God exists, I think it is the time for Him to come out of the secrecy of cloud and tell us what He really wants from us. We have been too long and tired to debate about Him. Sending His messages through His allegedly deceptive messenger has proven ineffective.

  522. It's astonishing the mental gymnastics these people will go through to avoid accepting the facts.

    It's one thing if you want to be fanatical about something harmless like Apple vs PC people, but in Islam it is a matter of life and death.

    It's hard to understand the mental sickness that motivates them to cling to Islam.

  523. Maruf, don't behave like a troll. I'm serious.

  524. Done that too. You should pay more attention.

    Bibi Ihsan, when will you be honest? My answer is the right answer. Why? It’s because I’m not ignorant like you about Bible. Remember trinity and Quranic mistake on that? Yeah, the one which have been avoided (as usual) by you? This is like that. You have emulated your prophet’s ignorance perfectly. When you want to talk about Christian you go to Bible and look its teaching, not to Quran like you. That’s irrelevant. Do you want me to use other scriptures when talking about Muhammad? Learn to play fair, kid. Or your parents never teach you fairness?

    Remember, ignorance cannot teach knowledge. It can only ignore it and bound to repeat itself.

    Anyway, why did Jesus do the same thing as us, sitting, eating, sleeping, talking etc? Your question doesn't hit the target if you know what I mean.

  525. A diligent one. She carefully chooses which one is "safe" for her. Don't want to eat "unhealthy" foods, do you?

  526. @ John K

    May be it is not important to you, but it is important to us. If you want to ignore the Priests backing off, ok but here:

    "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed." NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39

    So can I ask you again why it sort of tells us that Jesus did similarly with what Muslims do. Prostration?

  527. According to Blaise Pascal (in article http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/) we should believe in God. Because if we now believe that there is no God, but after death suddenly found that there is really a God, then no scope to rectify, straight looser. But If we believe in God in this life, then we will be in safe side whether there is God exists or not. So what we have to do is to find out the only true / loving God among the Gods in various religions.

    If Dr. Ali Sina was honest, suppose one of my friends called me, Maruf come out of your home, right then I will asked him where I will live at night? If he could not provide me another home than he has no right to call me come out? My friend should first manage another better home for me if he wants me to leave my current home. But Mr. Sina is not doing that he should have at first come up with a truer / lovelier God comparing to Muslim God before asking Muslims to denounce their faith. But without giving a solution he is offering a problem. This proves that Mr. Ali Sina has something evil hidden in his mind.

    He also suggests that to live ethically this will be enough for you. I am also agree with him in this regard.

    But who will decide the ethics meaning which is bad or which is right?

    Somebody tells, looking to a woman is bad, somebody tells looking is ok but touching is bad, somebody tells shaking and kissing is ok but adultery is bad, somebody tells everything is ok if both agree. Somebody tells Gay is very bad, some tells no it is their right. Some tells to be vegetarian is right , some tells no everything which is permitted can be eaten . Some tells bikini is perfect because it reveals the whole beauty, some tells no- woman should be modestly covered. Doctors say alcohol is harmful but it is permitted in many countries. Some says gambling is bad because it looses man financially, socially but many countries has permitted it. Some says interest is not bad for economy although it can’t resist recession, others tell that Islamic banking is less affected by the recession. A robber says robbery is good because he can earn much money with less effort and enjoy a luxurious life but the victim will say it is crime.

    For these reasons laws of every country differs each other and there is a continuous clash between pro and con.

    So the question is that who will define the good or bad or set limit. It is obviously the God, the Creator. Otherwise every right or wrong i.e. ethics becomes meaningless. So Gods presence/guidance is essential.

    So what is Dr. Sina doing, he is trying to make Muslims ex, without suggesting a more true God/religion for them. He wants to bring them out of home to under the sun, rain, storm, danger. It is inhuman. He is utilizing his brilliancy, literacy for misleading people, for the evil of the society.

    maruhafsul@yahoo.com

  528. Dear Ria Mathew,

    You said """"Bible makes the most sense"""

    Could you help me explaining Trinity????

  529. Dear Mr. Kafil,

    I accepted your invitation. I have tried Mr. Ali Sina whether I could be benefited by his solution. But he posses no solution posses only demuslimisation propaganda and deceitful debate.