I Am Depressed

I Am Depressed

To Ali Sina,

My story may appear to be the regular teenage drama at first glance. But if you delve deeper, you’ll find that I’m dealing with this big problem: a crush on this boy.

Wait! I know what it looks like at first. “Muslim girl gets a crush on another Muslim boy from the mosque and doesn’t know how to handle it.”

I promise you that it isn’t. It has very little to do with teenage angst. I’m typing this fast so some things might be rushed because I need to finish writing this before my mom wakes up from her nap. If you need any clarifications you can email me back till I’m satisfied with your advice.

I have suffered through depression and didn’t know exactly what was making me feel that way around late 2011. They thought it was a chemical imbalance. I thought I was stressed from my bad grades at school. But now I know that it was the fear of Hell that was burning away my spirit.

I will try to make this part of the story brief so I can get down to the main point. But I need to get this out: Islam has psychologically damaged me. This damage is being healed but some scars will never fade. I may have left Islam but a part of Islam will never leave me. The idea of having to accept sharing my husband with 72 virgins in the afterlife, the idea that the familiar, non-Muslim faces I see at school everyday were going to hell, ideas of angels beating me up in my grave and crushing me so severely that my ribs would overlap just because I failed to bow down to a narcissistic “god”, Allah humiliating me with every little petty thing I’ve done in life, the graphic descriptions of hell that were repeated to me for many years since I was very young…it has messed up my mind and distorted my sense of safety. It didn’t matter if everyone in the world loved me, because the wrath of Allah in the afterlife for making any mistake was sure to ruin a good mood.

To top that off, I learned so much too fast on a plethora of various subjects. I think too much for a 15 year old, hence being called a little philosopher. I don’t say this to brag but I want you to understand that being too smart led to mental isolation. Most teens don’t worry about worldly issues like I do. I wish I wasn’t this way sometimes because it seems like a curse to be so enlightened, for ignorance is a bliss I wish I could bask in. Instead I am aware of the horrible truth called Islam, and I’m aware of the long journey I’m going to have to do endure. I consider myself agnostic.

There is this boy who is in the same grade and school as me as well as mosque. I’ve noticed that he displays signs of being a potential apostate. We’d both ask the sheikh deep questions about Islam. Of course we got lame answers. I even talked to him about Islam briefly once at school. I asked him if the religion confused him sometimes. He said it would keep him up all night at times. He said things don’t make sense but all he can do is trust Allah.

He said he felt suicidal at times, like me. We talked a bit more and I saw he went through a lot of mental and emotional scarring like me such as bullying and isolation. He is literally the only person I have left. And I started to like him because of that. If he really is confused about Islam, then I guess he needs me too so we can support each other.

Two days ago I accidentally told my parents I didn’t believe in Islam. It was terrifying to discover that the love a Muslim parent has for their child could be so conditional. They threatened to kick me out of the house and didn’t care about what I would do with myself. So it took hours to pretend that I didn’t know what I was saying and that I believe in Islam again.

Now I have to pretend to be Muslim for a few more years till I can move out. Then I want to be free. But I want to and have to get married when I grow up, and it has to be a Muslim man. Of course, I can’t marry a Muslim because then I’d have to lie to him too and be stuck with Islam for the rest of my life. There is no way I could get away with marrying a non-Muslim either.

So my idea sounds really crazy, which is why I need your advice. Well, I was thinking…the boy I have been talking to, I like him and if I can somehow convince him Islam is not true, we can marry and move far away so our parents will be happy with us. Since we’re both “Muslims” they won’t suspect anything. But this will only work if he agrees with me. If he doesn’t, I am scared for my future. I am not doing this because of crazy teenage hormones, but I’m trying to be reasonable and I’m working on my future, and this is the only solution I have come up with. Even if we may turn out not to be compatible, we can just be friends, marry in front of our family, live in the same house (but different rooms) for show and have the relationships we want to have.

Lastly, I have one obstacle to get around with this: the imam of our mosque is brainwashing him and other youth. The imam is confusing him and I need to speak with him as soon as I can before it’s too late to reverse the damage. I’d like to explain but it’s a long story and I wanted to keep this letter short.

I really want to know what you think and how I should approach the situation and any tips you can give me. Thank you for reading, and please know that, and you’ve probably heard this so many times, you’ve helped me renounce Islam. I don’t really leave comments on your articles but it doesn’t mean I don’t read them. I appreciate your work. You are helping to move the world to a better state.

-M.A

 

 

Dear M.A. (or maybe I should call you little philosopher too),

You are smarter beyond your age. Often smarter people are more sensitive.  One peculiarity of teen years is that everything looks more dramatic. Simple problems that have easy solutions, for teenagers appear transcendental and insurmountable.

Thinking about suicide is also normal for teenagers. Happily, few act on it. You don’t have to think about it too much. Just know that most of the problems that at this age seem real to you, are not. And if they are, they are insignificant.  When you grow up you will face real problems. Now isn’t that some consolation! ;)

A life without problems is an illusion. Think of life as a game, say football or any  game.  The fun of the game is facing resistance and overcoming it. If there is no resistance there is no game. No one wants to play such game. The same is true in life. Happiness and success are in facing and overcoming obstacles not in not having them. Life is full of obstacles and problems.  The important thing is to confidently tackle them.

Looks like nature wants to tell us, from the moment of our birth, with all the resistance and pains that it throws at us that life in this world is going to be struggle. There is no such thing as happiness. There are hardships and problems and intervals of no problems. It is up to us to make the most of those intervals when problems are not many and be happy. What is health? Doesn’t health mean not having an illness? Happiness is also lack of sorrows.

Sadly, the belief in the lies of Muhammad makes everyone depressive. By following a madman, all Muslims have become mad. This madness manifests itself in myriads of ways. It is hard to find an emotionally healthy Muslim.  They have low self-esteem, are shy or depressive or narcissist or paranoid or all of them together.   As a matter of fact Muslims suffer from more mental and emotional disorders than any other people.

You did not tell me where you live. If you live in a western country you have more options than if you live in an Islamic country.  Even in an Islamic country you are not helpless. At the age of 15 I would not be too concerned about marriage. You have another ten years to go before thinking about marriage. In my personal view the best age for marriage is late twenties. Statistically, there are more divorces among people marring younger than 25.

You are fortunate because you are intelligent. This means your chance of living a free life is much higher.  You are already free from the shackles of Islam.  No bogyman in the sky, no hell and no sadistic angels in grave can scare you anymore.  That is a lot for a 15 years old girl to achieve when over a billion grownups, many of whom educated and accomplished people are still trapped in that web of silly lies.

You are afraid of your physical entrapment. That is also an unfounded fear. It is much easier to break the physical chains than the psychological ones. You have set yourself free psychologically. Attaining your physical freedom is much easier.

The key to your freedom is independence.  At this moment you have to focus on your studies. Go to the best university and get the best education you can afford.  You are smart; don’t settle for an undergraduate degree.  Aim high. Once you are educated you will be on demand anywhere in the world. All doors will be open to you.

Don’t marry early. Marriage is not the way out of the problems at home. Independence is. During this time, hang your philosopher hat and put on your student hat.  Go after science. Learning is the key to your freedom. Once you have a good job, living independently and earning your own living, nobody can tell you what to do with your life or whom to marry.

You have to realize that the parents control over their children diminishes in time. It reaches a stage that the balance of powers will be totally reversed and the parents will become dependent on the children.  In about ten years, when you have your own career and earn your own living, you and your parents reach equilibrium of powers. By then they can’t boss you around. From there on, every day, you gain more power while they lose.  This hierarchy of powers that at this moment seems so oppressive to you will be reversed. Give time a chance.  In a decade, none of these problems that today seem so daunting will exist. They will melt gradually, like a mountain of ice under the sun.

Another strange phenomenon is that the younger you are the longer time seems to last. For older people time passes quickly, when for younger people it seems to be very slow.  But ten years is not much when you compare it with the rest of your life.

As for this boy in your school, if you can encourage him to read my articles he may also realize the deception of Islam.

You should also know that people’s characters are not yet formed at young age. You and this boy will go through some very fundamental changes in the coming 15 years and will be very different people.  So don’t take any relationship with someone of opposite sex at this age too seriously.  You probably will fall in love a few times before you find your right life partner.  There is plenty of fish in the sea. At this time, your focus should not be on finding a life partner, but on studying and becoming the best you can be.

There is a time for everything. For you, this is the time to study. All other things come next. Plan your life correctly and you will have a very happy life.  Don’t study just for the diploma, but for the knowledge. Your diploma will not find you a job, your expertise will.

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This article has 278 comments

  1. Hello M. A.
    You are really an intelligent, smart and mature girl. I can help you. I would like to suggest you to do the YES! course (Youth Empowerment Seminar) of Art of Living Foundation in you local center in US. It empowers you physically- through simple yogasana; mentally and emotionally – through cleansing by breathing techniques including Sudarshan Kriya.
    Course duration: 6 days
    Time per day :3 hours
    Visit the site http://www.artofliving.org
    All the best.

  2. BUT a 15 year old cannot write an essay.
    Because he is understanding the basics of raising his rod to 90 degree in his fathers harem.

  3. Oh, where do they come from . . .

  4. islam: a 6 year old girl is ready for marriage BUT a 15 year old cannot write an essay.

  5. Bravo to you Apostate29! My husband's family is in Pakistan as well- they reallllly dont take kindly to anyone leaving Islam (he asked a question and they wanted him dead for it). He, too, now joyously accepts and enjoys everyone different. He is still volatile towards Islam and muslims, but I am hoping that when enough years pass that will fade a bit.

    I also loved your advise to just harm no one and do what you will =)

  6. Not one of them has a brain to think with sweetheart. Sometimes people leave the religion but their mind and actions remain inside it. I wish I could say it is cultural but no, they really are stupid and cruel and it makes them feel like big men to talk down to a girl asking questions.

    Imagine what their own kids must go through *shaking my head*

    For every 2-3 of these fools is at least 1 normal sane person. Dont hedge bets on these sad pathetic bullies who cant even accept the affect of their own words on another human being. They belong back with the other muslims. And they certainly are not worth a second glance once you see they wrote something. Dont even open it to view their words- you already know the crap they will spew.

    Stay strong princess, you have to wade through a lot of frogs to see some princes around here heh

  7. Apparently you guys come from a society where you presume women are stupid and illiterate from birth until death?

    She writes the same as my kids did, their friends did, except that she has the typical mental level of an advanced student (I was one and I started writing short stories and books by 4th grade, my eldest daughter had 3 books published in her school district before 6th grade).

    She is legit or you wouldnt have so many small details of her daily life. My apologies if you or yours wouldnt have the capability to form a literate paragraph. Dont take it out on M.A.

    Seriously, this ignorance is pissing off the 'mommy' in me.

    Signed,
    The ex-choir and drama kid who raised 3 of the same.

  8. Whilst i am sure you have the best of wishes, I am not sure that pushing a new religion onto someone leaving Islam is the wisest option. I am happy for you that your religion finds you peace, but perhaps we should let this girl get out of her first religion (and heal…) before trying to con her into a new one?

    As a sidenote, science can be proven as a fact and religion cannot (and no, I am not following science as one would a religion, I simply have a grip of knowledge and am not afraid to use it). So while your feelings about jesus are special to you and relevant in your life, I would be careful about subjecting this teenager to it. it will likely push her away moreso.

    Just a thought (from someone who went through the same thing and still does due to an overzealous religious christian friend).

  9. You are not responsible for the actions of horny pigs (sorry for the bluntness). I have seen women covered head the toe, EVERYTHING hidden of a giant black drape, and the men leering at any possible body bulge that is showing.

    Sorry but it's crap. The responsibility of someone's lust is on that person, not the one they stare at. Because seriously, they will find something to get turned on by no matter what.

    This blame-the-victim crap needs to stop. If you want men to stop acting like that then stop worrying about what they are staring at and just blindfold the damn men :p

  10. Sweetheart you have more support than you realize. unfortunately no one feels safe to admit it openly, lest put their life in danger from the other muslims.

    My husband left Islam not long ago. His family does not know and he erased everyone muslim from his FB page in order to (finally!) feel safe to speak his own mind and heart.

    It has been a long 2 years for him to get to this point (he dared ask his father a question and appear to doubt Islam and his life was nearly jeopardised. he, too, had to suddenly pretend he was misunderstood and still following the 'cult' (as he calls it).

    Nowadays he is building a new 'community' full of people with similar likes, who are not muslim. He found a fascination for astronomy and the history of religions (plural since now he is finding out there are so many other religious beliefs) and today while we watched a movie together they showed a ren faire role-playing sword fight and he said, "You know what, i wouldn't mind trying that, it seems like fun." I nearly spilled my drink. To go from who he was forced to be, and see him grow into who he is becoming, is amazing to watch! He is allowed to open his mind now and it's incredible to see :)

    From someone else's mom speaking to someone else's daughter – Dont worry so much about pleasing your parents in the future. In the end we can hate our childrens choices but we truly have no choice in who they become. Concentrate on finding who you are… truly ARE… and if they cannot live with your choices then that is their decision. It is not your fault, your purpose on this planet is to become the best version of YOU that you can be ;) Open your mind, learn, explore, take in the wonders that you never realized were there. And most of all, surround yourself with people who love you for you. In the end, those people will still be there for you even if your parents throw a fit and back away.

    We are here if you need us. We all are.
    Sincerely,
    Mrs. Infidel :)

  11. Hey…im neha from india…im a muslim but i hate islam….allah the stupid moon god is sooo selfish…he needs to be prayed 5 times….as if he is never satisfied and than starve in ramdhan just to go to that x rated heaven…bullshit….and than ya that angel aka demon wil torture you in grave…again BS….IS THAT ALLAH MERCIFUL OR REVENGEFUL….mohammed was a rapist ,murderer, he allowed sex with slaves , he dint wipe out slavery, he gave men permision to marry 4 wives and use as sex toy, he makes women dress in black blanket in hot weather…he viewed women as objecy and not humans…i love that jewish lady who gave him poison…..wish he was dead as a infant…becuase of mohammed our world is getting destroyed ….i just hope all muslims get wiped off from face of this earth than this place wil become heaven if they are all dead…..I JUST HATE ISLAM…..but cause am in india a secular country i am not forced to do anything and i dont do anything like that stupid dance called namaz etc….i have a huge feeling that with each new generation islam is crumbling….and hopefully this mohammedian cult wil end forever and MA u just get a good education and run away far otherwise you wil always remain in islamic prison.

  12. Exactly. Just today morning I too had thought the same. I have been requesting FFI translate this in Malayalam. I had even suggested the name of Dr Babu Suseelan – who I feel, is a Malayali.

    May God help your with your work Ali Sina.

  13. Dude Ali Sina. You are greater than Mohammed.

    I was surprised to see your works in Tamil.

    Hats off. Continue your great work. I encourage you to translate your articles to Hindi and Malayalam as well.

  14. Dr. Ali Sina, You said ," I'd rather see Muslims convert to Christianity than remaining Muslim." I know you arn't promoting christianity here but trying to save mankind from a cult. But while you do that, don't you think you might be trying to save a person from a wolf by pulling him behind you while there could be those rabid dogs behind you who'd eat up that person. You should also teach them which version of christianity it is that preaches Humanism. (personally I find the idea of being born a Sinner as coming from a pervert). Who wrote that? Certainly not Jesus. What Sin did a person do some 2000 years ago for which the great man gave his life. That man would've cried if He saw today's scenario, where people use his name to imbibe guilt in mankind which he so loved. I prostrate before him and his sacrifice.

  15. "Keep dreaming!"

    I suppose this is a stock phrase to you. . . when you run out. Resort to them.

    This meaningless bit doesn't even go with anything above. Deaf, dumb and blind by anti-Muslims hate.

    You are one true follower.

  16. Keep dreaming!

  17. "When people develop an ego, they become careless at how to trudge the path, end up making too many mistakes and then fall. And you are gonna keep that from happening to me. Well thank you! "

    Ha ha ha – as irrational as ever. . . you are simply incapable of engaging. I severely doubt you have progressed beyond high school.

    - – -

    "There is a saying "the proof is in the pudding". Sooner or later, you will see the 'pudding' that FFI started. "

    Ha ha ha . . . . you should try reading some of Sina's claim! Then answer this.

    - – -

    "The trouble that I am having with you is that I cannot shame you for wasting your time here, when your fellow ummah is suffering. But I will figure it out. "

    An expected and obvious comments. . . this is all you can do. The thing is is Sina – is exactly the same.

    - – -

    Big grandiose claims. . . that fall on virtually deaf ears. What really kills him he has not even had the success akin to Ibn Warraq.

    But if he keeps promoting that shambles of a book… that is simply to be expected.

    It is not just that the writing style is so poor… basic accuracy leaves lot to be desired. . . at least American Right wing listens to Ibn Warraq. . . but Sina. . . could not even do much by dangling a Dr. in front of his name.

    If he has you propping him up. . . . then he doesn't stand a chance.

  18. "If left unchallenged in a few years you will develop an ego as big as your hero."
    —————–
    When people develop an ego, they become careless at how to trudge the path, end up making too many mistakes and then fall. And you are gonna keep that from happening to me. Well thank you!
    *************
    I visit this site because my purpose is to improve the quality of life of all people including Muslims."

    No it isn't. That is bollocks!
    ———–
    There is a saying "the proof is in the pudding". Sooner or later, you will see the 'pudding' that FFI started.
    *************
    "Riiight…. yet you have trouble even getting past me. Good Luck!"
    ————–
    The trouble that I am having with you is that I cannot shame you for wasting your time here, when your fellow ummah is suffering. But I will figure it out.

  19. "Do not expect anything else from me. "

    Atta Boy! You said it bubba… classic answer from er… a sheep.

    - – -

    "Amin, I trust my brain, my experiences, my observations, and my intution enough to know what not to believe, what to believe, and how much of it to believe."

    This isn't really saying much is it.. . . . . given the extent of your intellectual powers. You are unable to express your own strongly held views. . . all you are capable of doing is posting links.

  20. "Dear Amin, If I am that poor at 'civil conversation', or communication skills, or whatever you call it, then WHY do you answer my posts? Ignore me."

    In order to answer. . . trust me answering isn't for your benefit. If left unchallenged in a few years you will develop an ego as big as your hero.

    - – -

    "Secondly, is debating with me MORE IMPORTANT, or is saving the lives of your fellow Muslims, and improving the lives of your fellow Muslims more important. "

    The same question to you….

    – — —

    "I am sorry, but I will not play this game any more. "

    Meaning you cannot answer.

    "I am sorry, but I will not play this game any more. I visit this site because my purpose is to improve the quality of life of all people including Muslims."

    No it isn't. That is bollocks!

    "The only way I have figured out how to do that is by destroying Islam completely. "

    Riiight…. yet you have trouble even getting past me. Good Luck!

    – - –

    "You clearly are an educated person, you should be able to figure out how to help your fellow Muslims. "

    Yes… but showing the nonsense you come out with… Even you ADMIT I am successful at that…

    - – -

    " But if you are going to do that by any means other than total obliteration of Islam, then you can rule me out. "

    Right – and you can honestly not even see how ludicrous your own comments are…

    = = =

    The sad thing is – you honestly think that there is an audience who is lapping up you comments. . .

  21. See – you couldn't answer…

    "Sina rejects (as do you) . . . the whole corpus of Muslim sources. Yet he uses it selectively to pick out – what agrees with his bias/beliefs/views an ignores all others….

    . . . but on what basis? "

    and your answer was…

    "On the basis that, it fits the profile of a person who is narcissist, suffers from epilepsy and acromegaly, and who is making stuff up about his being a prophet. "

    - – -

    They would have had a lot of with you at school… as set your answers and questions – tend not to match.

  22. ….but on what basis?
    —————
    On the basis that, it fits the profile of a person who is narcissist, suffers from epilepsy and acromegaly, and who is making stuff up about his being a prophet.
    ***************
    Below is the link to comment where MA said she lives in USA. I am not going to go through the millions of comments to find the comment by Dr. Sina that you are asking for. Read his articles, go through his comments, and you will come across it. Good Luck. http://alisina.org/i-am-depressed/#IDComment40525

  23. Amin, I trust my brain, my experiences, my observations, and my intution enough to know what not to believe, what to believe, and how much of it to believe. Your tricks will not work on me. You should not waste your time with me. I will be posting links to as many links that I can get my hands on, regarding atrocities committed by the Muslims, and on the Muslims. And I will deride you for spending time here instead of working to fix Islam's problems. Do not expect anything else from me.

  24. Dear Amin, If I am that poor at 'civil conversation', or communication skills, or whatever you call it, then WHY do you answer my posts? Ignore me.

    Secondly, is debating with me MORE IMPORTANT, or is saving the lives of your fellow Muslims, and improving the lives of your fellow Muslims more important.

    I am sorry, but I will not play this game any more. I visit this site because my purpose is to improve the quality of life of all people including Muslims. The only way I have figured out how to do that is by destroying Islam completely. You clearly are an educated person, you should be able to figure out how to help your fellow Muslims. But if you are going to do that by any means other than total obliteration of Islam, then you can rule me out.

  25. "I respond only to what is relevant. "

    In other words… what you cannot comprehend – it simply isn't relevant… or what contradicts you – it becomes irrelevant.

    - – -

    You misunderstand the question… I'll clarify it for you.

    Sin rejects (as do you) . . . the whole corpus of Muslim sources. Yet he uses it selectively to pick out – what agrees with his bias/beliefs/views an ignores all others….

    . . . but on what basis?

    - – -

    And where did Sina say what you claim he has said … I want to read it. And don't make like the MA issue – where you claimed she had said she was from USA – but when I asked – where? You were unable to give me any link.

  26. "No one expects those articles to be 100% accurate. "

    Admittance… see – that is why it is UP TO verify and chack… what is and isn't correct – before you start to dogmatically propagate any such material. So that when you are questioned… you won't fall down like dominoes.

    - – -

    "Those articles in the links themselves explain enough that no further explaination is necessary."

    No it doesn't – it CLEARLY doesn't – and YOU HAVE ADMITTED IT:

    "No one expects those articles to be 100% accurate. "

    So how do you know which bits aren't true? For all you know… all of it can be pack of lies…

    where is your separation from of truth and false?

    - – -

    "Things do not need to be made THAT complicated to figure out whether Islam is evil or not. Just an observation of what Muslims believe, and how they behave is sufficient for even simple average people to figure this one out. "

    But this is simply meaningless… if it is THAT simple… then WHY ARE YOU HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE!!!!!

  27. You repeatedly do this…. whenever there is a difficult question asked of oyu… you ignore it and move on.

    Sometime later you would repeat your assertions AGAIN! As if they were the gospel.

    - – -
    Your motivation is simple – it is anti-Muslim hate. So whenever you come across such material – you accept it. Without question… it doesn't really matter as to the truth of it.

    When someone challenges YOU over your rants and raves… then you are unable to answer.

    - – -

    "I would have been watching TV and following Obama."

    huh? When you make comments like that… well – it leaves lot to aim at!

    - – -

    "If I am not professionaly skilled at presenting an idea, that DOES NOT mean that I cannot understand, verify, and otherwise assess the 'quality' of the material that I come across. "

    Who said anything about professionally? It is test ones understanding…. if oyu were educated!

    - – -

    See how easily you resot to type – by simply giving other peoples material.

  28. "But you have just admitted to your short comings… inability to even understand and explain tertiary material is very poor level to be at. Hence what you are claiming doesn't hold much weight"
    —————–
    If I am not professionaly skilled at presenting an idea, that DOES NOT mean that I cannot understand, verify, and otherwise assess the 'quality' of the material that I come across. If I could be fooled that easily, I would have been watching TV and following Obama. Here is an example of a quality article, that explains why there are so many terror attacks around Ramadan, even though it is supposed to be a time when Muslims seek to reconcile differences and seek peace: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2

    oops, while you were wasting your time here at FFI, seven militants (your fellow muslims) were killed in Pakistan, and 7 Iraqi police were killed in bombings- http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticle/621b1bdehttp://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/story/201

  29. No one expects those articles to be 100% accurate. Sorry Amin, but my original statement still holds. Here is what I said-
    "Those articles in the links themselves explain enough that no further explaination is necessary."
    ***************

    "Right – but that is what I am asking… as you have "figured" it out . . . and have arrived at the conclusion that those articles are correct. hence you should be able to explain this. . . and you are NOT able to do so. This leads to: Either you have not understood – or you are lying"
    ———–
    Things do not need to be made THAT complicated to figure out whether Islam is evil or not. Just an observation of what Muslims believe, and how they behave is sufficient for even simple average people to figure this one out.

  30. "You miss out EVERY single thing that you couldn't respond to – and concentrated on that. Speak volumes."
    ———-
    I respond only to what is relevant.
    ************
    "Are you saying that you believe in Muslims sources or not? So where is you method – which ones are accurate or not? For all you know – these are all wrong!"
    ———-
    Dr. Sina has responded to exactly such a statement in the past and since I agree with him I'll try to rephrase it in brief, as well as I can. He said that besides the Qu'ran, there is no point in NOT agreeing with Muslim sources, since 1) great effort was made to certify them as 'sahih', and 2) why would the narrators make something up considering that they respected Muhammad as their prophet. Exceptions are some of those things that are scientifically impossible e.g splitting of the moon.

  31. [quote] The rest of your comment I did not get – what point were you making? [/quote]

    How someone can seriously consider quran 94:1-6 to relate to coronary bypass surgery to the point of writing it up and publishing it. One really has to do a Nostradamus on the verse. It's like the jehova's witnesses who refuse blood transfusions based on genesis 9:4:

    << But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. >>

    Either, anyone can read anything in a sacred text, or it is read exactly as it stands.

  32. "It does NOT matter whether truth is presented in the form of comics or some other way. Everything in the comic link that I posted, is backed by reliable Islamic sources. "

    You miss out EVERY single thing that you couldn't respond to – and concentrated on that. Speak volumes.

    - – -
    "Everything in the comic link that I posted, is backed by reliable Islamic sources."

    Also it doesn't work like that – selecting something that fits your worldview and ignoring that do not is fallacious.

    Are you saying that you believe in Muslims sources or not? So where is you method – which ones are accurate or not? For all you know – these are all wrong!

  33. "You have even lowered your self to comparing with comic strips! How quaint."

    It does NOT matter whether truth is presented in the form of comics or some other way. Everything in the comic link that I posted, is backed by reliable Islamic sources.

  34. Right – yet you do not have the skills to verify all such claims… you take them as is.

    Hence you are one of the worlds many sheep – an excellent follower.

    - – -

    You have even lowered your self to comparing with comic strips! How quaint.

  35. "Those articles in the links themselves explain enough that no further explaination is necessary."

    A cop out – I have read all those links and do have many problems with its accuracy. If you are going to say this …. it shows that you have not understood the material… and hence you cannot express it either. As you are unable to do so – hence it is useless to "argue/debate/talk" to about the subject.

    - – -

    "All one needs to do is use his/her brain and figure things out. "

    Right – but that is what I am asking… as you have "figured" it out . . . and have arrived at the conclusion that those articles are correct. hence you should be able to explain this. . . and you are NOT able to do so. This leads to: Either you have not understood – or you are lying.

    - – -

    "I post links to articles because people writing those articles have studied the subject matter more than I have, and because they are better at explaining their studied material than myself. "

    Precisely – I am glad that you admit that at least.

    - – -

    "My endeavour is to point out the evil nature of Islam."

    But you have just admitted to your short comings… inability to even understand and explain tertiary material is very poor level to be at. Hence what you are claiming doesn't hold much weight. Even you should be able to see that.

    - – -

    "I do that through my own writing, through links to quality articles written by others, links to news reports, or a combination of them all. "

    Your writing!

  36. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Sunday 29 July 2012, 4:55 am

    Whole of making suggest Inferiority complex.

  37. It does not matter who made this comic. What matters is that it is fully backed by reliable (sahih) islamic sources, and portrays the 'prophet of Allah' accurately!

  38. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 28 July 2012, 7:26 pm

    Who made this comic disney , fox or wb ?

  39. I don't know! But I sure am better than the guy in this comic strip. He slept with his own daughter-in-law! Disgusting! The story is fully backed by SAHIH Hadis-
    http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an

  40. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 28 July 2012, 6:07 pm

    Are you a subhuman?

  41. Those articles in the links themselves explain enough that no further explaination is necessary. All one needs to do is use his/her brain and figure things out.

    I post links to articles because people writing those articles have studied the subject matter more than I have, and because they are better at explaining their studied material than myself. My endeavour is to point out the evil nature of Islam. I do that through my own writing, through links to quality articles written by others, links to news reports, or a combination of them all.

  42. You again resort to the type – I explained this to you… reading a few propaganda site [yes - that is what it is... a Christian site] does not equal to your having some superior knowledge.

    You do it again… you couldn't explain yourself hence you refer to a site!

    - – -

    " here is yet another article that leaves no doubt that Earth is flat according to Allah"

    And if you are in " no doubt" – then why is it that you're having so much trouble explaining?

    - – -

    The fact is – it is you anti-Islamic sentiments that are in doubt… that is why anything "anti-Islamic/Muslim" is automatically true.

  43. "So all the people who talk about the scientific miracles of the quran (e.g. http://miraclesofthequran.com/ ) are misguided? "

    To varying degrees depending on the extent of their claim – often are wrong. [not necessarily misguided]

    Often those explaining the science do not even comprehend the basics and er . . . make many mistakes when trying to explain.

    - – -

    The rest of your comment I did not get – what point were you making?

  44. [quote] I will say it again – Quran is NOT a science book and neither is its purpose to impart scientific knowledge. However it is not inaccurate either. [/quote]

    I get that. So all the people who talk about the scientific miracles of the quran (e.g. http://miraclesofthequran.com/ ) are misguided?

    Just for fun ( http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_74.html ):

    [quote]
    CORONARY BY-PASS SURGERY

    Did We not open up and expand your breast for you and remove your load from you which weighed down your back? Did We not raise your renown high? For truly with hardship comes ease; truly with hardship comes ease. (Qur'an, 94:1-6)

    In order for it to survive and function, every organ needs to be nourished by means of the blood. Blood flows to the heart through the coronary artery. In cases of hardening of the arteries (atherosclerosis), narrowing and blockages can arise in these arteries. When the condition progresses, the passage of the blood is obstructed and the heart receives insufficient supply. This leads to chest pains, which show that the heart is unable to function properly and also to heart attacks.

    The expression "Alam nashrah laka sadraka" in the above verse-translated as "Did we not open up and expand your breast for you…"-may be a sign of heart disorders of this kind and present-day coronary by-pass surgery. (Allah knows best.) That is because the first meaning of the term "lam nashrah" expresses the verb "to cut open flesh and similar substances." Indeed, in such operations, the heart is accessed by splitting the breastbone in two. As a result of the operation, the blood is enabled to flow again and chest pain is eliminated. The term "expand" in the above verse may be a sign of the removal of such congestion of the arteries.

    Furthermore, it is most wise that immediately after this Sura Allah should swear by the olive, which is so beneficial to the heart. (Qur'an, 95:1)
    [/quote]

    The mind boggles.

  45. ***I have already watched this. Some of the science explained is faulty. The bit about how the earth's crust was formed.***

    My response was a whole LOT more than this… and you know it – all one has to do is refer back to it.

    Hang on… THAT video is inaccurate scientifically. I pointed this out several times – and on the page Sina posted it.

    Have you given a response? No you haven't. So what are you complaining about?

    I have also said… about the content when he speak about Tafsir – Muslim commentaries – is also wrong. He alleges what is NOT found in the commentaries.

    I even gave an example.

    Did you respond? No – You did not respond then – and you have no response now.

    - – -

    Let us look at your skills. You cannot understand Arabic and you do not have enough basic science knowledge either.

    All you have done is read a few websites …. and not even grasped what they say comprehensively enough as you don't have the background knowledge or the skills.

    That is why – when backed – all you CAN do is point to such videos and articles – as YOUR MAIN ARGUMENT – and not as a reference.

    Also you are not albe to counter argue – other than make generalisations or start off on another topic.

    Sorry – But i have repeatedly come across such people. That is why you go around this site posting various bits of anti-Islam bits and bats.

    - – -

    "You hide your head in the sand, which is stupidity at its worst, and then you accuse others of not being well-educated or clever. Well, people (with working brains) who read comments here, will know who is *clever* and who is pointing out the obvious. "

    This is a meaningless comment! You take on a sniffy and immature attitude – as expected.

    "Well, people (with working brains)" – simply means those who agree with you or with your general anti-Islam notions.

    - – -

    "The clever ones are those who assert that I never posted evidence about Mo….err….Allah having Flat Earth in mind when revealing verses."

    Pasting links does not mean that you have pasted arguments… I cannot argue with you than – because YOU ARE NOT the author of those arguments.

    The correct methods is to present you OWN arguments. And back them up if necessary with references.

    Also – you main source – I did check it and wrote about it – you did not have a counter argument.

    - – -

    Have you never done – say an essay at school?

  46. "Spread out is the definition of flat. No discussion there. When you make pancakes you spread them out on a pan and they become flat. "

    Right…. see I was making "Chocolate Apples" by spreading out chocolate over them.
    You can spread something over any shape.

    So – where did you get this definition from: "Spread out is the definition of flat"

    You do prove my point – it is because the prevalent "flat earth" that became attached to the Quran verses. If this notion wasn't already there. No one would have claimed it.

    - – -

    "spread out like a bed"

    Where? Ah… you did not give a reference. How convenient.

  47. ***I have already watched this. Some of the science explained is faulty. The bit about how the earth's crust was formed.***

    My response was a whole LOT more than this… and you know it – all one has to do is refer back to it.

    Hang on… THAT video is inaccurate scientifically. I pointed this out several times – and on the page Sina posted it.

    Have you given a response? No you haven't. So what are you complaining about?

    I have also said… about the content when he speak about Tafsir – Muslim commentaries – is also wrong. He alleges what is NOT found in the commentaries.

    I even gave an example.

    Did you respond? No – You did not respond then – and you have no response now.

    - – -

    Let us look at your skills. You cannot understand Arabic and you do not have enough basic science knowledge either.

    All you have done is read a few websites …. and not even grasped what they say comprehensively enough as you don't have the background knowledge or the skills.

    That is why – when backed – all you CAN do is point to such videos and articles – as YOUR MAIN ARGUMENT – and not as a reference.

    Also you are not albe to counter argue – other than make generalisations or start off on another topic.

    Sorry – But i have repeatedly come across such people. That is why you go around this site posting various bits of anti-Islam bits and bats.

    - – -

    "You hide your head in the sand, which is stupidity at its worst, and then you accuse others of not being well-educated or clever. Well, people (with working brains) who read comments here, will know who is *clever* and who is pointing out the obvious. "

    This is a meaningless comment! You take on a sniffy and immature attitude – as expected.

    "Well, people (with working brains)" – simply means those who agree with you or with your general anti-Islam notions.

    - – -

    "The clever ones are those who assert that I never posted evidence about Mo….err….Allah having Flat Earth in mind when revealing verses."

    Pasting links does not mean that you have pasted arguments… I cannot argue with you than – because YOU ARE NOT the author of those arguments.

    The correct methods is to present you OWN arguments. And back them up if necessary with references.

    Also – you main source – I did check it and wrote about it – you did not have a counter argument.

    - – -

    Have you never done – say an essay at school?

  48. "So we're down to arguing whether "spread out" means flat or spherical. "

    No we are not – Quran simply DOES NOT allude to the shape of Earth. I have said this before – Quran doesn't call the Earth Flat or Spherical.

    "Obviously, god speaks in riddles (can we suggest to make it easier to pretend he said the right thing all along?) "

    ooooh provocative. But the purpose of what is being said has nothing to do with the shape of the Earth at all. So your sentence:

    "(can we suggest to make it easier to pretend he said the right thing all along?)"

    Is simply fallacious and as I said – provocative. If you read the verses – they are not a riddle.

    I will say it again – Quran is NOT a science book and neither is its purpose to impart scientific knowledge. However it is not inaccurate either.

    - – -

    [quote] Don't pretend that you can ACID TEST any science. Ludicrous claim. [/quote]

    It is apparent from what I said that I was referring to knowTheEnemy – that he as no capability to acid test any science. Not on given evidence anyway. I don't think s/he know much science.

  49. "Deserving of being treated just like you, enjoying the same human rights However, doesn't the quran (3:110) say that muslims are better than non-muslims? Does the quran (4:141) not say that a non-believer will never have authority over a believer? "

    When you talk about a particular book and refer to something specif isn't it better to use actual quotes rather than paraphrasing – hence removing the doubt that you might be hoodwinking. Else you might turn what the book actually says into something else.

    Quran 3:110

    "You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient."

    Here it is not meant that each individual is better than each individual non-Muslim. Rather as a genus the collective nation.

    Also the meaning of "You are the best nation" is morally superior.

    This doesn't mean that Muslims are any better as "humans" than non-Muslims.

    - – -

    "Does the quran (4:141) not say that a non-believer will never have authority over a believer?"

    Quran 4:141

    "Those who wait [and watch] you. Then if you gain a victory from Allah , they say, "Were we not with you?" But if the disbelievers have a success, they say [to them], "Did we not gain the advantage over you, but we protected you from the believers?" Allah will judge between [all of] you on the Day of Resurrection, and never will Allah give the disbelievers over the believers a way [to overcome them]."

    Again what the Quran is saying and how you are putting it is different.

    - – -

    IF YOU STILL WANT TO REPLY – PLEASE START ANOTHER CLEAN COMMENT – THIS HAS BECOME TOO LONG.

  50. 1. Again you over look a few choice points.

    You have extended the veracity of my claim. Also – you have missed out other key USA military engagements.

    Going after Libya for example. Then there is the very meddling in other countries such as Pakistan and many other situation and matters that might not be as important

    The there is the agenda of one party. For example democrats run the foreign policy differently the Republicans.

    Then EVEN within the Republicans there are separate groups… some more extreme than others.

    There are definite strands within the Republican party that does want to finish off Islam and see it disappear – preferably into Christianity.

    Just look at the strand of Samuel Bush, Prescott Bush, Bush Snr, Bush Jnr…. and then there is still Jeb to come!

    My extent of the claim isn't that every USA politician wants an almighty war with Islam. But you only have to read their literature….
    and there is plenty of it.

    The way you have generalised above is completely wrong.

    - – -

    "I have read some of Spencer's works, and he is not advocating the extermination (indiscriminate killing) of muslims. I don't know what he thinks in private, but he's not advocating it. Certain muslims, on the contrary, have no problems issuing fatwas urging their co-religionists to kill authors of works they've not read, or calling for the annihilation of Israel. You draw the conclusions. "

    Not correct – the evidence is there. OBVIOUSLY Spencer doesn't outright say he wants indiscriminately want to exterminate Muslims or either wants to. And that is NOT what I am saying.

    He wants to rid of Islam. It is the methods and the power that is nasty, wrong and to an extent indiscriminate. If you take his language and convert it to Islam – you WOULD be decrying that person and the hate.

    Read Sina for example… he said "All Muslims are mad" – indiscriminately. And he hold to that view.

    Spencer and his ilk did have influence on Bush and his thinking. Who was simply a figurehead with much more astute people behind him.

    - – -

    "Well, gullible is defined as "easily deceived or cheated". Accepting the rather strange teachings (the existence of angels and jinns, pretending to know what god will say and do at the end of time, to name but a few) of a 6th century warlord as the word of god, without any convincing proof, surely qualifies as "gullible". "

    Again – you still pick up the secondary and try to justify the Primary. That is a logically fallacious.

    Islam at extreme basics is simply about the belief in "One God" – and that is it. Everything else is secondary.

    So your argument to hold up something like that is persuasion with fallacious means. And it doesn't work.

    What I really want to know is that how aware you are of this.

    If you drop all these biased viewpoints and study Muslim history with an open mind and their works… you will come across that this argument was solved by Abu Bakr.

    "of a 6th century warlord"

    You know perfectly well that Prophet Muhammad was way more than that. So why describe him like that? However that is a side issue….

    It is the dismissal – you forget that Plato – Da Vinci and such…. would still be classed as geniuses no matter which era they lived in…

    Just because human knowledge hadn't progressed that far … it doesn't mean they were still not head and shoulders above ordinary people.

    - – -

  51. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 26 July 2012, 11:16 pm

    You accept atheism is hopeless situation and religion is hope lol

  52. It's the lesser of two evils, bub.

    Some people need the comfort and reassurance of a religion, so it's quite reasonable to offer them an alternative security blanket.

  53. If you said that to me – "anti-Islamic",I'll clarify.I'm anti-religious.But Islam isn't just a religion,it's also an evil political ideology.

    "The only person who knows that I am right is the one who impersonated a 15 year old girl, and he might be a man over 50, and the rest believe what they want to believe or what they wish it is true. I am very familiar with the writing style of this story,
    and I am sorry to tell you that you either lack intelligence or you are obstinate"

    You're absolutely right.Only the person who has asked this question knows his/her intention.Rest of us can only speculate and create Conspiracy Theories,which is a waste of both time and energy.
    So you're relying on some gut feeling, not reasons, to conclude that this girl is a fake.And you expect others to believe in your gut feeling,or else they are obstinate and incapable of Intellectual discussions?
    Let me assume that she is.a fake.But the fact that we can't ever establish that for sure, unless we pay a Detective agency to investigate everyone involved in person,makes any purely intellectual attempts attempts futile.So why not look at the question and the response and judge the merits of those?

    The purpose of this site is to establish that Islam is Muhammad's imagination and Evil.Mr. Sina has put a lengthy list of arguments for the former which can be debated.But the latter is true beyond contention.So I don't know how you claiming to be an Agnostic can have a problem with the latter fact.

  54. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 26 July 2012, 5:22 pm

    What angle you are now making with north pole. Lets walk .

  55. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 26 July 2012, 5:20 pm

    Bed is round with radius of huge curve otherwise it wouldn't have settled on spherical earth.

  56. To those interested, here is yet another article that leaves no doubt that Earth is flat according to Allah:
    http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_fl

    For those who know Arabic:
    http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_fl

  57. I sure am not clever. I only try to put things as simply as I can. The clever ones are those who assert that I never posted evidence about Mo….err….Allah having Flat Earth in mind when revealing verses. I posted links to quality articles that are easily available on the internet, and I posted a link to this quality video-
    [youtube _FaNg_nxqns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns youtube]

    To which your response was this,

    ***I have already watched this. Some of the science explained is faulty. The bit about how the earth's crust was formed.***

    You hide your head in the sand, which is stupidity at its worst, and then you accuse others of not being well-educated or clever. Well, people (with working brains) who read comments here, will know who is *clever* and who is pointing out the obvious.

  58. Spread out is the definition of flat. No discussion there. When you make pancakes you spread them out on a pan and they become flat.

    Also to make it even clearer, quran says "spread out like a bed". I have never in my life seen a bed that was round…

  59. [quote] Baseless as before. It is a simple fact – Quran does not refer to the Earth as Flat. [/quote]

    Correct. The quran doesn't say "The earth is flat", but neither does it say "The earth is an oblate spheroid". So we're down to arguing whether "spread out" means flat or spherical. Obviously, god speaks in riddles (can we suggest to make it easier to pretend he said the right thing all along?)

    [quote] Don't pretend that you can ACID TEST any science. Ludicrous claim. [/quote]

    Depends on what you mean by acid test. Of course you cannot dip science in acid and conclude that it's genuine when it doesn't dissolve (that's where acid test comes from: if it is gold, it will not dissolve in acid, whereas other substances like pyrite do dissolve.)

    If the scientific method has been used, then a claim or conclusion can be tested, because the methodology will have been disclosed, and the experiment can be replicated. The statistics, mathematics as well as the reasoning can be checked for validity. A good scientific theory will be falsifiable and include predictions that can be tested. It's not perfect, but it is the most reliable way to acquire knowledge.

    So yes, scientific knowledge can be tested

  60. You obviously see a pattern and interpret it as a concerted anti-islam campaign. I fail to see a pattern. Since WWII, the USA fought in Korea (no muslims there), Vietnam (no muslims either), Kuwait ( to protect muslims from attacks by a fellow muslim, and they got out as soon as they accomplished the liberation of Kuwait), the Balkans (to protect muslims), and in Afghanistan and Irak (because Bush jr is an idiot). There is no pattern (except they weren't very successful) and certain no anti-islam campaign.

    I have read some of Spencer's works, and he is not advocating the extermination (indiscriminate killing) of muslims. I don't know what he thinks in private, but he's not advocating it. Certain muslims, on the contrary, have no problems issuing fatwas urging their co-religionists to kill authors of works they've not read, or calling for the annihilation of Israel. You draw the conclusions.

    Well, gullible is defined as "easily deceived or cheated". Accepting the rather strange teachings (the existence of angels and jinns, pretending to know what god will say and do at the end of time, to name but a few) of a 6th century warlord as the word of god, without any convincing proof, surely qualifies as "gullible".

    Deserving of being treated just like you, enjoying the same human rights However, doesn't the quran (3:110) say that muslims are better than non-muslims? Does the quran (4:141) not say that a non-believer will never have authority over a believer?

  61. "but all those events that used to require a god turn out to have natural explanations. "

    Such as?

    - – -

    "There is a lot of evidence that those very human deities do not exist, for example none of the predictions made in their name have come to pass. "

    huh? Such as again lack of any examples… what predictions?

    - – -

    "When you believe in the god of the quran, you believe in a monster, intent on inflicting eternal suffering on his creatures. "

    Simply your view… and it is actually incorrect. What you said implies all creatures. This is obviously not true.

    If there is a deity – suppose it for a second – it could do what it wants.

    Isn't it also a Muslim belief that it is the same "Monster" that is looking over you as well as me?

    Such arguments dealing with one side only are generally – fallacious.

  62. " I think you're projecting. Islam divides the world in two parts (ar al islam and dar al harb), and states that is is a muslim's duty to ensure all countries become part of dar al islam.

    Any evidence? You air your opinions and that is about it. At least you admit to it. There is not one simple thing called Islam. When you claim the above – who exactly are you talking about?

    How many Muslim govts do you see out to conquer? When you use "Islam states…."

    That could mean absolutely anything.

    - – -

    "This obviously predisposes them to think that the rest of the world is out to get them. In my opinion this is a mild form of paranoia. "

    Why obviously? You vehemently deny that USA's apparent target of Muslim countries is all random.

    It reminds me of Rumsfeld – when he was asked about the looting of Iraq Museums and why weren't they protected – yet the oil ministry was. His response was something like you don't think these things are by design…

    Despite all apparent evidence. You present nothing other than "In my opinion". I certainly think you are clever enough to know that you don't have much to go on.

    - – -

    2. Thanks for the confirmation, and lovely to know that as an atheist, I would not be tolerated at all.

    I didn't know "atheists" were considered as Idolators? You tend to infer from what I say – whatever you wish to.

    - – -

    3. Yes – But Dawkins isn't as extreme as Sina or Spencer.

    "Most religions know that they would not have many followers if they didn't mould the brains of the children to believe the unbelievable. "

    But this works both ways… Islam does fine when acquiring new converts. Atheism to looses er "followers"

    See – it is "unbelievable" just to you… and not to me. And there is quite a change in you language from when you started!

    "I am quite sure neither Sina nor Spemcer advocates exterminating muslims. Could it be that you project your religion's approach (kill the unbelievers) on them, like you seem to project your belief in a battle between islam and christianity on Bush & co? "

    Yet – If you read what I have said… I do at least give some evidence. What reasons have you given – other than repeating. There is definite "slant" towards Islam – when it comes to Bush & Co.

    It is quiet obvious that Iraq was not developing and WMDs – it was Blair's lie. There is/was no extreme case of terrorism emerging from Iraq. That was another of your "oversights"

    "I am quite sure neither Sina nor Spemcer advocates exterminating muslims."

    On what basis? With Spencer there is ample evidence of his influence.

    Sina – a plankton in comparison – yet is of the same ilk. This is discernible from his language.

    Would you care for examples?

    - – -

    "Could it be that you project your religion's approach (kill the unbelievers) on them"

    It is not my religion – simply your assumption of it. There is no enmasse kill all unbelievers in Islam.

    - – -

    Hence we can conclude that the assertion that christianity (all of it) has a central authority and islam (all of it) has none is incorrect.

    Yes – but that is stating the obvious and pretty meaningless. However to say "virtually" all for islam is correct.

    - – -

    "Now to the serious part. The quran is merely a book of guidance. You believe is is divine, a true belief that needs no proofs. So people can read that book of guidance and conclude it is misguiding, and decide not to follow it. You are perfecty OK with this, and do not consider these people to be less deserving than you (if anything, they might be less gullible). "

    You were doing fine – until you put this bit to show your superiority, perhaps?

    "(if anything, they might be less gullible)"

    "and do not consider these people to be less deserving than you"

    And I certainly never got to the meaning or intent of this… what do you mean "deserving"?

    - – - –

  63. I think you're projecting. Islam divides the world in two parts (ar al islam and dar al harb), and states that is is a muslim's duty to ensure all countries become part of dar al islam. This obviously predisposes them to think that the rest of the world is out to get them. In my opinion this is a mild form of paranoia.

    2. Thanks for the confirmation, and lovely to know that as an atheist, I would not be tolerated at all.

    3. If Dawkins had his way (and I am happy to see a court in Germany agree with him, at least in part), indoctrinating a child with a religion would be child abuse. Most religions know that they would not have many followers if they didn't mould the brains of the children to believe the unbelievable.

    I am quite sure neither Sina nor Spemcer advocates exterminating muslims. Could it be that you project your religion's approach (kill the unbelievers) on them, like you seem to project your belief in a battle between islam and christianity on Bush & co?

    4. Hence we can conclude that the assertion that christianity (all of it) has a central authority and islam (all of it) has none is incorrect.

    5. Now to the serious part. The quran is merely a book of guidance. You believe is is divine, a true belief that needs no proofs. So people can read that book of guidance and conclude it is misguiding, and decide not to follow it. You are perfecty OK with this, and do not consider these people to be less deserving than you (if anything, they might be less gullible).

    Is my interpretation correct?

  64. Notice that it was a religious person who brought up the need to explain the universe with god. We might not know a lot about the universe, but all those events that used to require a god turn out to have natural explanations.

    There is no credible evidence for the god of the quran, or the god of the bible, any more than there is credible evidence for Zeus or Wotan. There is a lot of evidence that those very human deities do not exist, for example none of the predictions made in their name have come to pass.

    When you believe in the god of the quran, you believe in a monster, intent on inflicting eternal suffering on his creatures.

  65. 1. You repeat this assertion – but without ever much evidence to back it up. But if you looked at the outlines and background of the war – there is certainly something suspect there.

    Another example (you have ignored the previous ones). The Robert Spencer connection. He was allowed pretty much open access to US military and intelligence. A pastor like him generally doesn't make it into the pentagon. And we know his views about Islam.

    - – -

    "2. Shariah doesn't grant equal rights to non-muslims. "

    In Western sense – no. But it does give autonomy. Jews and Christians for example can live according to their own laws.

    Idolators – are simply not tolerated at all.

    - – -

    3. Surprise? No. But the bare-faced "hypocrisy" yes. Also – it is not wanting "Islam" to disappear that concerns me.

    It is the methods and the way sought. When it comes to the "freedoms" – both Spencer and Sina – simply do want not grant these to Muslims.

    If they had their way – it will be by any means necessary.

    This isn't the same as how your average Atheist thinks – who too would want Islam to disappear. Take Dawkins – I am no fan of his. But I don't think he is a "hate-monger" in the league of Sina and Spencer.

    - – -

    4. Sunnis are 75%-90% of Islam. Catholcism 55%+ of

    However – Shiite hierarchy of Clerics is still not the same as Catholicism.

    - – -

    5. "Muslim scholars have pondered proofs for the existence of god."

    Yes… But that is NOT why they believe – it is not because of philosophical or logical proofs.

    "If god does not exist, the quran cannot be of divine origin, so it cannot be proof of the existence of god. "

    Basic of Muslim belief go back to Prophet Muhammad – come on – you know that! It is because of him!

    It is stating the obvious but…!

    - – -

    "So muslims accept and respect the beliefs of other people, and accept that the quran is not convincing unless one already believes in allah. "

    huh? Why confuse the issues here… accepting that others will choose to believe what they will does not mean:

    "and accept that the quran is not convincing unless one already believes in allah."

    Do not go together.

    Quran is simply a book of guidance – it is NOT there to convince anyone.

    - – -

    " Is a god who doesn't offer sufficient proof for the right path and then sadistically punishes those that did not blindly believe the human claiming to be his messenger, a god worthy of reverence? "

    Yes. It is not the question of "punishments" and what not that make a difference to those who believe – those are secondary matters.

    Those who don't believe – again the same thing – it isn't primarily because of "punishments"

  66. "And understanding the universe doesn't require the type of god depicted in the quran, a god who has more characteristics of a petulant child than the power that rules and keeps the rhythm of the universe. "

    It is not for "understanding" of the universe that a God is believed in.

    Out knowledge at the moment of the universe is pretty thin.

    - – -

    "It's impossible to prove that the god of islam doesn't exist, but there is a lack of credible evidence that he exists. "

    Hence belief!

  67. "YES, he can play all kinds of mental and logical gymnastics and conclude that all the references to Earth being 'spread out' is not the same as saying 'flat', and even Q 3:7 can be seen to uphold that view. "

    This is you simply being dishonest… when you could not find a counter argument – you either move on, bring up something new or start making ridiculous assertions and claims.

    "Spread out" just does not equal "Flat". And you had no other argument. Period.

    - – -

    "and then tries to figure out what he was thinking when he said Earth is 'spread out' and all other scientific things"

    Inexact – what other things? Don't muddy the water.

    - – -

    " then it only takes minutes to realize that the Quran is only saying things that were already known to people of that time"

    Again you are simply making assertions. Also your story has changed. Now you are on the "already known" phase.

    - – -

    "Muhammad (and his Quran) too had a 'flat' Earth in mind while revealing verses. All his statements easily fall in place to make it clear that he was a charlatan, and that anything scientific in the Quran is mere coincidence. "

    Yet again this merely making assertions…. untruthful ones at that. How do you know that Prophet Muhammad had Flat Earth in mind?* Where is your evidence?

    It has already been established that you have no evidence. Yet look at your carrying on… rather than coming clean. You simply repeat your assertions – from another direction.

    Baseless as before. It is a simple fact – Quran does not refer to the Earth as Flat.

    [* Muslims allege Quran is from God]

    - – -

    "If I doubt the claims of today's scientists, their claims easily pass the acid-test no matter how hard I try, and I will have to come back to accepting those claims. But not so with the 'Messenger of Allah'. Just one shred of doubt makes his prophethood fall apart. "

    Don't pretend that you can ACID TEST any science. Ludicrous claim.

    It is pretty apparent – you are neither well educated or that clever. You go around this site posting random bits on anti-Islam and Muslim bigotry.

  68. " They put adverts here too. I remove them. "

    And why did you try it on? "There is no spam box. This is not email." Now you are saying – you remove Spam – hence you DO remove some posts.

    - – -

    "Didn't you claim your posts were deleted? Well you lied. How else I can say this without calling a spade a spade? "

    If you notice the above – your own words – there is also the possibility of accidental deletion – and willful.

    Yet you jumped the gun straight to calling me a liar. Why?

    Also – try reading what I said. In no way i accused YOU or any one else. You didn't even have to get involved.

    But you have answered every single post of this strand – and rather vehemently.

    - – -

    I have also noticed someone else accusing you – yet your manner was very different there.

    - – -

    "Posts do not disappear in thin air. If they are not retained for approval someone must have deleted them. Since that has not happened then you are not telling the truth. "

    However – it is simply your word against mine. Since I know full well I twice posted something – and it disappeared. Either you deleted it willfully or by accident.

    – - –

  69. I'll try to be brief.

    1. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not against islam. I understand muslims see it that way, but most certainly not the motive used here. You'll notice the total absence of official christian missionaries. Intervention in Syria would be to depose Al Assad, who is not a muslim, and replace him with a muslim.

    2. Shariah doesn't grant equal rights to non-muslims.

    3. You were expressing surprise at Al Sina associating with Robert Spencer, but they are both against islam. Ali Sina goes even further because Spencer only calls islam to be removed from America and Europe, whereas Sina wants it to disappear from the face of the earth.

    4. Catholics and anglicans have a central authority, but methodists, unitarians and baptists have none. Sunnis don't have a central authority, but shiites do have a hierarchical clergy.

    5. Muslim scholars have pondered proofs for the existence of god. For the quran to be a revealed text, god has to exist. If god does not exist, the quran cannot be of divine origin, so it cannot be proof of the existence of god.

    6. So muslims accept and respect the beliefs of other people, and accept that the quran is not convincing unless one already believes in allah. Then why does the quran say that unbelievers will burn in hell for all eternity? Is a god who doesn't offer sufficient proof for the right path and then sadistically punishes those that did not blindly believe the human claiming to be his messenger, a god worthy of reverence?

  70. Which divine book is "being understood by all mankind"? It's not because you affirm this that it's true. I read the quran as a young man struggling with religion, and it wasn't any more convincing than the bible.

    Belief is that what you accept without proof. And understanding the universe doesn't require the type of god depicted in the quran, a god who has more characteristics of a petulant child than the power that rules and keeps the rhythm of the universe.

    It's impossible to prove that the god of islam doesn't exist, but there is a lack of credible evidence that he exists.

  71. They put adverts here too. I remove them.

    Didn\’t you claim your posts were deleted? Well you lied. How else I can say this without calling a spade a spade?

    Posts do not disappear in thin air. If they are not retained for approval someone must have deleted them. Since that has not happened then you are not telling the truth.

  72. @Amin Riaz and @ all others with similar Quranic view

    There is something very important that you guys are missing. If one agrees that Muhammad was indeed Messenger of God, then YES, he can play all kinds of mental and logical gymnastics and conclude that all the references to Earth being 'spread out' is not the same as saying 'flat', and even Q 3:7 can be seen to uphold that view.

    BUT,

    If one tests Muhammad to see whether he really was a messenger, and doubts him for the test, and then tries to figure out what he was thinking when he said Earth is 'spread out' and all other scientific things, then it only takes minutes to realize that the Quran is only saying things that were already known to people of that time, and just like everyone else, Muhammad (and his Quran) too had a 'flat' Earth in mind while revealing verses. All his statements easily fall in place to make it clear that he was a charlatan, and that anything scientific in the Quran is mere coincidence.

    If I doubt the claims of today's scientists, their claims easily pass the acid-test no matter how hard I try, and I will have to come back to accepting those claims. But not so with the 'Messenger of Allah'. Just one shred of doubt makes his prophethood fall apart.

  73. "It appears that the Quran is very easy to misunderstand. And a believer has to find all the loopholes s/he can, to make it sound like the verses sense. However, the Quran says it is easy to understand. "

    Again – it is EXPECTED that you will say such thing and hence pretty meaningless.

    - – -

    "How can Allah send a book that claims to be easy to understand yet is not! One has to consult Muslim ‘scholars’ to know what it really is saying. "

    Again – an expected remark – this is not even original – people like you repeat it often. Deliberately.

    - – -

    "Yet despite your detailed explanation, and pointing out minute differences between ‘metaphors’ and ‘allegories’, and your assertion that only ‘spread out’ is mentioned and ‘flat’ is not, the fact remains that verse 3:7 wants believers to accept all Quranic verses literally. "

    Are really that stupid? Read this again and see if you can spot a problem with your reasoning….

    You are the one who bangs on about how Quran is meant to be taken in the literal meaning – yet when it comes to the flat earth – you apply your own interpretation?

    And it is "I" who is pointing out the extent of what the Quran says. A fact – Quran does NOT call the earth flat. Neither is there ANY SUCH implication.

    - – -

    "the fact remains that verse 3:7 wants believers to accept all Quranic verses literally. "

    As I pointed out – that isn't the case. All you are capable of doing, it seems, to repeat your assertions.

    - – -

    "Yes it does, but it also says that ONLY Allah knows which verses those are."

    Again a DELIBERATE falsification. This is what the Quran actually says:

    "And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . "

    "interpretation" – it doesn't say that no one knows them – but their interpretation.

    THIS IS RATHER OBVIOUS – HOW ELSE CAN PEOPLE SPREAD DISCORD IF THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHICH VERSES ARE ALLEGORICAL!

    Again you confuse the issue – that is why i have said – try to think before commenting.

    - – -

    It means even Muslim ‘scholars cannot claim to know which verse is a ‘metaphor’ or a ‘allegory’ or ‘anything else other than what is written’.

    Again:

    "But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

    What does that tell you?

    - – -

    "Allah’s claim about only him knowing the allegorical verses will be proven wrong. "

    I have already pointed out the faulty logic of this argument – read above. Allah does NOT say only he knows those verses.

    - – -

    "Sorry Amin, you are not fooling me with that one. No other religious books are this complicated to understand. The only one you are fooling is yourself. "

    How many religious books have you read? And where is your comparative analysis?

    You cannot EVEN read the Quran.

  74. "It is NOT a false view. Quran really wants it to be taken literally, as explained in Quran 3:7. If you think it is a false view, you are only fooling yourself. "

    huh? I took your reasoning apart and then wrote the conclusion…. you did not have a reply other than a feeble assertion.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt… but I take it you are deliberately seeking to mislead.

    The verse 3:7 clearly says:

    Quranic verses are either 'clear' or 'allegorical'.

    Those that seek disharmony do so through willful interpretation of the allegorical verses.

    Then it implies to seek advice of the learned.

    - – -

    You couldn't respond to the bogus "flat earth" claim either.

  75. @ Amin Riaz and @everyone else who thinks like him,

    It appears that the Quran is very easy to misunderstand. And a believer has to find all the loopholes s/he can, to make it sound like the verses sense. However, the Quran says it is easy to understand.

    How can Allah send a book that claims to be easy to understand yet is not! One has to consult Muslim ‘scholars’ to know what it really is saying.
    Yet despite your detailed explanation, and pointing out minute differences between ‘metaphors’ and ‘allegories’, and your assertion that only ‘spread out’ is mentioned and ‘flat’ is not, the fact remains that verse 3:7 wants believers to accept all Quranic verses literally.

    “Quran clearly says that some verses ARE allegorical”

    Yes it does, but it also says that ONLY Allah knows which verses those are. It means even Muslim ‘scholars cannot claim to know which verse is a ‘metaphor’ or a ‘allegory’ or ‘anything else other than what is written’.

    “I will repeat as a summary – Re read those verses. Quran says that some verses are ALLEGORICAL and when discord is spread it is spread using these”

    Ok, so I want to spread discord, I will pick up the ‘allegorical’ verses. But how the heck can I do that when according to Allah, I do not know which verses those are, even if I am a scholar. I will have to randomly pick a verse (like lottery) and hope that it is the ‘allegorical’ one. Then if I am successful in spreading discord, then I WILL KNOW that the verse that I picked up is allegorical. Allah’s claim about only him knowing the allegorical verses will be proven wrong.

    “You have asserted that Quran is saying it is meant to be taken literally – yet that is NOT the case. Neither do the above verses say that.”

    Sorry Amin, you are not fooling me with that one. No other religious books are this complicated to understand. The only one you are fooling is yourself.

  76. "I suspect you already wanted to air your false view about quran saying it is only meant to be taken literally "

    It is NOT a false view. Quran really wants it to be taken literally, as explained in Quran 3:7. If you think it is a false view, you are only fooling yourself.

  77. "Ok, but you both think alike. so when I reply to one, the reply is for both of you. Shoot one bullet, hit two targets "

    This is a ridiculous thing to say. Whoever that anonymous is – we do NOT think alike.

    In such cases it is better to admit to the simple oversight – rather than make excuses.

  78. "You know, he funny thing is that all the muslims I know are kind, cultured, and intelligent. Come to think of it, most people I meet seem above average (how's that for a statistician : )".

    Sure, on the outside they look like they are cultured and intelligent. But really they are full of Arabic (just learned that expression from Mr. Sina).

    I have muslim friends too, and it baffles me how such cultured and intelligent individuals can degenerate into mindless idiots when it comes to religion. It is like split personality. One side is cultured, the other is brain dead zombie.

    Especially now during Ramadan, my muslim friends really show their uncivilized nature. When the discussion gets too heated I change the subject to women & Jews. In that way my "cultured" and "intelligent" muslim friends can let some steam off.

    With muslims it is like a delicious fruit but when you open it up you discover that it's rotten inside.

  79. Ok, but you both think alike. so when I reply to one, the reply is for both of you. Shoot one bullet, hit two targets

  80. " What again was the name of that religion that teaches that women are less intelligent than men? "

    Christianity?

    - – -

    When you say:

    "Sometimes one part of you desperately wants the comfort, certainty and security of religion."

    Then we are already talking about someone who has though about it – hence the plain "lazy" are not the subject of the discussion.

    "What do you think the reason is? "

    The only acceptable reason is if you believe in something fine – else it is better to be open that you don't.

    TO be a Muslim for example one has to believe what he says with the tongue. Else – you are not a Muslim.

  81. "Fighting the muslims hasn't been part of the European mindset since the battle of Vienna in 1683."

    Strange, misleading and erroneous comment to make – given the number of wars. What else do you call the recent wars of Iraq and Afghanistan. Then the constant talk of war with Iran and Syria.

    American Right Wing thinks of anything but war with Muslims.

    This is denying the obvious

    - – -

    The whole Iraq saga was strange – there was real chance after the Gulf war to remove Saddam – why wasn't he removed?

    I haven't heard one good answer.

    - – -

    West has secularized its society politically – however most Europeans would consider themselves at least cultural Christians.

    - – -

    " (not building new houses of worship, etc)"

    The example you do give is not correct. Non-Muslims are allowed to build place of worship.

    - – -

    "Do you think Ali Sina's message would be better received by muslims if he didn' t call Robert Spencer is friend? "

    A strange question to ask… why would Muslims consider Sina's message of eradicating their faith?

    Also his language is offensive, cruel and hate mongering. He stereotypes and dehumanizes Muslims.

    I can give a list of examples if required.

    - – -

    "Some christian denominations have a central authority, some don't. The same existis in islam. "

    This isn't the case. You need to look into it. Sunni Muslims do not have central authority like Christianity (Catholicism).

    - – -

    "As a matter of fact, some religions already embrace the idea that they are not the only way to god. In any case, to live harmoniously together in a multi-cultural, multi-religion secular socity, religions cannot see non-believers as evil or misguided, but should see them as fellow travellers using different paths to god. "

    The only major religion I can think of is Bahai – even then this isn't what they say. Also comparatively speaking – they are not a major religion. It is telling that you did not mention any names.

    You simply describe an unrealistic utopia that fits your own leanings. It simply does not exist.

    - – -

    "I think that you will find quite a lot of muslim scholars discussing arguments for the existence of god (e.g the mutakallims arguing for a temporal universe that by necessity must have had a creator, etc). But I will grant that for most the existence of god is self-evident. "

    Those have nothing to do with the Quran. The reason those people are Muslims have absolutely got nothing to do with whatever "proofs" logical or philosophical. The only basis is Quran – the revealed text.

    - – -

    Like you said – your impression. However, there is no one set view.

    Sufi's a large but loose group of Muslims do tend to be far more tolerant of others – nd yes many examples available. For example Ibn Arabi or Moin Uddin Chisti.

    Salafis on the other hand are more or less intolerant.

    - – -

    "(i.e. they cannot but see the validity of the proof but reject it out of enmity against islam, or because they have been led astray by the devil)"

    These two examples are not connected as you have made it out to be so. Neither are they of equal value.

    – - –

    "…divinity of the quran are so evident that those who reject them are dishonest…"

    Islam is a question of "Belief" – either you have it or you don't. Muslims do accept that.

  82. " I think you are conversant with the arguments developed by Ali Sina. I will not repeat them here. "

    No I was replying to you.

    - – -

    I take it that you do not have qualms with Quran grammar. And you don't see any contradictions either.

    - – -

    If you were presenting a hypothetical case then using the first person voice wasn't suitable.

  83. What again was the name of that religion that teaches that women are less intelligent than men?

    As far as sticking with a reigion is concerned, laziness had to be one of the main reasons. Conversions are a different matter, and I suppose the need for certainity and security might play an important role. What do you think the reason is?

  84. I think you are conversant with the arguments developed by Ali Sina. I will not repeat them here.

    I was trying to illustrate how something could be obvious to one person, and not convincing to another, without either of the parties being dishonest (internally admitting the position of the other but rejecting it nonetheless).

    Islam divides the world in believers and non-believers, and clearly states that the believers are superior to the non-believers. This leaves no room for honest disagreement.

  85. Fortunately, I cannot read Dubya's mind so I cannot know for sure that he isn't a fundamentalist christian thinking that his god has told him to smite the muslims. Fighting the muslims hasn't been part of the European mindset since the battle of Vienna in 1683. And, mind you, that was a defensive war (as far as the Austrians were concerned). Hence I do not believe Bush saw the Irak war as a christian vs. muslim conflict, but more as freedom vs. oppression. Personally, I feel he was wrong and should have left Saddam alone (which he probably would have done if Irak didn't have oil).

    As far as the preeminence of religion is concerned, I didn't say dead, I said "no longer preeminent". Ours are no longer christian countries, and many laws are against christian teachings (abortion, divorce, euthanasia, gay marriage, equality of men and women, etc). A lot has changed since the French Revolution.

    It is true that under shariah the protected people do not have to follow the same rules as muslims (which arguably would make them muslims), but they are subject to restrictions (not building new houses of worship, etc). This implies that the rule of the land is shariah. In a secular state, religion and its laws are subordinate to the non-religious law of the land. If the law of the land says that marriage is between two people, then a muslim cannot invoke the quran and marry four women. Under shariah, a non-muslim cannot try and convert a muslim, but in a secular state, it's perfectly OK for the Jehova's witnesses to bother muslims and atheists alike.

    Do you think Ali Sina's message would be better received by muslims if he didn' t call Robert Spencer is friend?

    Some christian denominations have a central authority, some don't. The same existis in islam.

    As a matter of fact, some religions already embrace the idea that they are not the only way to god. In any case, to live harmoniously together in a multi-cultural, multi-religion secular socity, religions cannot see non-believers as evil or misguided, but should see them as fellow travellers using different paths to god.

    I think that you will find quite a lot of muslim scholars discussing arguments for the existence of god (e.g the mutakallims arguing for a temporal universe that by necessity must have had a creator, etc). But I will grant that for most the existence of god is self-evident.

    It is my impression that muslims feel that the proofs of the divinity of the quran are so evident that those who reject them are dishonest (i.e. they cannot but see the validity of the proof but reject it out of enmity against islam, or because they have been led astray by the devil).

  86. "The contradictions are obvious, and some verses have grammar problems."

    Such as…. see it is real easy to make such assertion. But you do so with out giving any examples.

    If you had given example it would have shown whether you are mistaken in something or not.

    - – -

    You claim that Quran has grammar problems… yet do you or do you not understand Arabic?

    It is interesting to not that majority of Western scholars that are experts of Arabic (Classical or Pre-Classical) do not hold this view.

    One reason maybe that is virtually impossible to prove if Quran has grammar mistakes.

    The reason being – which grammar book will you use to judge Quran's grammar.

    Certainly not the books written after the advent of the Quran – as that would not make much sense.

    So – How it that you have formed the opinion that Quran has grammar problems?

    - – -

    "As soon as I assume the quran not to be the word of god, the proofs become far less compelling"

    I have asked you previously…. what proofs? What exactly do you mean by proofs?

    - – -

    "This is the one aspect of islam that bothers me most — islam's assumption that its message so evidently, obviously true that not accepting that message has to be an act of malice. "

    I suggest that this merely your feeling and nothing more.

  87. You know, he funny thing is that all the muslims I know are kind, cultured, and intelligent. Come to think of it, most people I meet seem above average (how's that for a statistician :) ). I've grown up in Africa, and I can assure you that wisdom and kindness do not depend on sophistication and literacy.

    We are exposed to a lot of silly talk by mullahs, and I must admit that I am dissapointed when I listen to people like Zakir Naik and Hamza Tzortzis. There is so much conviction there that there's not much left for understanding. But you cannot blame their lack of knowledge or their illiteracy…

    There is one thought experiment I would like to conduct. It goes as follows.

    I am an atheist, but I can imagine the quran to be the word of god, proving the existence of the islamic god. Is it possible for a good muslim to imagine the quran not to be the word of god, implying that god doesn't exist or that another religion is the true revelation. I'm not asking the muslim to renounce their faith, just to imagine the possibility, just like I would not become a muslim by imagining the quran to be the revealed word of god.

    Based on these assumptions, both of us can look at the proofs offered for the divine origin of the quran, once accepting the quran as the word of god, and once rejecting the quran as the word of god.

    When I assume the quran to be the word of god, I have no problems accepting the proofs, for example it is obvious that none of human attempts at producing a sura comes close to god's word. It is quite obvious that there are no contradictions, and that if I do not understand a verse, it is because my Arabic is woefully inadequate. The quran is obviously the word of god.

    As soon as I assume the quran not to be the word of god, the proofs become far less compelling, and I can see the merits of some of the made-up suras. The contradictions are obvious, and some verses have grammar problems. There is no compelling reason to believe the quran is the word of god.

    Would good muslims be able to make this thought experiment, and would they come to similar conclusions? Would they be able to accept that what makes a lot of sense to the muslim, makes a lot less sense to the non-muslim, without the latter willfully ignoring the the obviously divine origin of the quran?

    This is the one aspect of islam that bothers me most — islam's assumption that its message so evidently, obviously true that not accepting that message has to be an act of malice.

  88. " If she comes from a devout family, she has been force-fed the belief that she is lost and powerless without a husband. "

    Bill – you should get out more.

    - – -

    "Sometimes one part of you desperately wants the comfort, certainty and security of religion."

    This is a very common line and oft repeated. Yet I don't think this is a major reason people stick to a religion or convert to it.

  89. Science doesn't really have to do with the other disciples – it is curious how often people lump them together.

  90. "You are not saying anything world shattering. "

    Why the defensiveness? I asked about spam… I know how WordPress sites work.

    "There is no spam box. This is not email."

    Yet people often leave adverts – there aren't any here – in my experience even with plug-ins you don't catch them all.

    - – -

    "No one deletes then and don't come up with cheap attacks."

    Yet it was your highness getting into a petty squabble – straight off the bat calling me "a liar". Pot calling the kettle black?

    I have already stated – All I said was I posted twice – both posts disappeared – now I questioned the lack of spam… yet you give out the same spiel.

    - – -

    "No one believes that. "

    Jeez! Even this isn't true and you know it. The answer is so obvious….

  91. "This is old tactic of Muslims when they fail to answer logically they make charge on site admin of comments deleting to divert the attention. If you comment on Islamic website they will ban you immediately. "

    Yet – would you care to point out the charge I made on the site admin?

    - – -

    This is common tactic of anti-Muslim hate mongers – to presume a Muslim is automatically guilty of something – without bothering to verify.

  92. " I do not think G W Bush's motives for going to war with Irak were religious. He wasn't fighting Islam, he was fighting terrorism, and he was fighting a dictator. "

    Right…. yet it is Bush who did actually said "God" told him. Isn't it interesting that it was Bush Snr – who started the war on Iraq – in the first place. And what "terrorism" stemmed from Iraq?

    There are many dictators around the world – so why Iraq?

    - – -

    "Religion has long ceased to be preeminent in the Western mindset."

    Not completely true. You say "long" but less than 150years… that is not long. It is decreasing but not dead – as you comment implies.

    - – -

    "In islam, religion is both personal (only you and your god know how sincere you are) and public. Shariah doesn't deal only with your relationship with god, but also with the organisation of society. It's objective is to enforce islamic morals on the whole of society, on muslims and non-muslims alike. "

    True to an extent – however the its morals are not applied to non-Muslims. The extent would be about the same as Muslims in the West.

    - – -

    Robert Spencer is an extremist – he is a right wing Christian Pastor. His perspective and motives are not same as Sina.

    - – -

    "The common point is that Ali Sina, Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller all see islam as an unreformable threat to Western societies."

    This is stating the obvious. Yet all three are not the same. For Sina to sing up with like of the other 2 – there are "compromises" that he makes. Such "compromises" lead to blatant hypocrisy.

    For him isn't it like choosing one devil to beat the other devil.

    - – -

    "can islam be one of the many religions in a secular society"

    More or less it is. There is one important distinction between Islam and Christianity – and that is lack of central authority. For example all "Fatwas" issued by a Mufti are legally "non-binding". It up to the individual if they choose to follow them or not.

    - – -

    "Can islam see other religions as different, but equally valid paths to knowing god? "

    No religion or ideology does that. Acceptance of others is something else…. what you say is something else.

    - – -

    "Can islam accept that what it sees as incontrovertible proof of the existence of its god can be less than convincing to non-muslims"

    huh? Again stating the obvious. ALSO – Islam does not give out "proofs" about existence of God. This is news to me!

    - – -

    "but just because the proofs aren't very convincing unless you already accept islam? "

    Meaningless schism – you allude to portraying an option – which actually isn't there. Clever! Word play.

  93. There is nothing interests you about people who believe but you think them as innocent or stupid. Even most qualified can't write a divine book which is being understood by all mankind.

    Remember those scriptures are not merely written books, a belief is involved with them. These people manifest truth through them and find guide to live life instead of getting hopeless situations like where I am? who I am? Denying GOD is denying existence of power which rule, keep rhythm of this universe.

    Truth doesn't care about how you get message. Infinite possibilities in infinite universe you can't deny firmly anything.

  94. @BillOpenthalt

    Very interesting post. You are definately among the most enlightened people on this website.

    I too am an atheist and I think there is nothing divine in any religions. Religions are just world views that define different cultures. I certainly think some religions are superior to others, but none of them are "absolute divine truth".

    Althouh I agree 100% with your points, I have a few comments:

    I think the big problem with the West is that it treats all cultures as equal. Well, they are NOT! For example Islamic culture has never had a renaissance (although muslims brag about their "golden age") or a reformation like Christian culture. Up to this moment there ar millions of muslims who are convinced that the earh is flat (cause the qur'an obviously says so). Many muslims (especially women) are illiterate. Freedom of speech has never existed in muslim countries. Unlike virtually all other cultures, Muslims have never had the chance to develop into a civilized society. They are stuck with their primitive "holy book" and its primitive rules.

    In short, when you speak with a "true" muslim it is like travelling backwards in time to the 7th century. The West thinks that all cultures are equal and have a mindset that fits the 21st century. In fact the conflict between the West and Islam is a conflict between civilization and barbarism. Plain and simple.

    Muslims are also in conflict with Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Atheists… They are in conflict with everyone who is civilized! I have read Mr. Sina's articles for many years now and he has clearly understood that Islam is the same as Barbarism. This is why he considers it a threat to humanity.

    Please correct me if I am wrong

  95. This is old tactic of Muslims when they fail to answer logically they make charge on site admin of comments deleting to divert the attention. If you comment on Islamic website they will ban you immediately.

  96. There is no spam box. This is not email. You have posted dozens of comments here. You are not saying anything world shattering. Just go ahead and post what you want. No one deletes then and don\’t come up with cheap attacks. No one believes that.

  97. @Muslims Scholars
    When we ask Muslims as to Why did Allah create this vast universe. Answer we get: Allah desired to get himself/herself worshiped by souls. So, he created all this. But I see very few people who believe in Quranic Allah. So, Can we assume Allah is a looser who got only 20% marks out of 100%.
    80% people are of non-believers in Koranic Allah. World most famous personalities like spiritual leaders, philosophers, scientists are in the list of 80% people. I think a omnipotent, blissful God can not have such wishes.
    more Drawback of getting worshiped philosophy:-
    God becomes nothing more than a praise-loving dictator suffering from superiority-complex.

    It proves that God is inconsistent. He changes His habits. That is why since beginninglessness God was all alone, but then He suddenly thought of creating us.
    Let us say, He decided to create us at point T1 in time. Now since time has no beginning and God was always present, hence time T1 or any other time T2, T3 etc are equidistant from origin of time which is infinity away. So if He can change his mood at time T1, there is no reason why He cannot change His mood at other time-points like T2, T3 etc. Also, there is no guarantee that He did not create and destroy us or other species at other times BEFORE time T1 of this creation.

    Now all religions that claim that Allah created us so that we could worship Him also believe that Allah is perfect. Now if Allah is perfect, it means that at ALL points in time, He is equally perfect and operates as per the SAME laws. Perfection implies that there can be NO single-point inconsistency in God’ habits.

    I think world most ancient scripture Veda gives much better answer of this & for many Veda are knowledge emanates directly from God inspiration.
    a. God, Soul and Nature (Prakriti) are three eternal entities that always existed and will always exist. This is the actual concept of ‘Trinity’.

    b. God never creates or destroys souls or nature. He only acts as a Super Manager who brings Soul and Nature together so that souls can put efforts as per Law of Karma to achieve ultimate bliss.

    c. Whatever is happening with us in our life is as per our own efforts till last moment. And we can change the course of our destiny through present and future efforts.

    d. Death is never a final stop. It is just a short break after which journey continues unhindered.

    e. When we say that God is creator, we mean that he brings souls and nature together to give them this non-random well-planned shape. He then maintains the universe to help the souls. Finally He destroys the universe and then again starts the process of creation. All this – creation, maintenance and destruction – continues to happen just like night and day continue to follow each other. There was never a time when this process did not exist nor shall there be a time when this process will cease. That is why He is called Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Maintainer) and Pralaykarta (Destructor).

  98. You lost me there. Care to elaborate?

    I am quite sure that the authors of the ancient texts we call scriptures were convinced they wrote something deep and relevant. After all, isn't that how each of us feels about our words on this forum?

    What interests me is why so many people believe in words of people living hundreds of years ago when what they say is so manifestly improbable. I mean, immaculate conception, jinns, angels, eternal punishement metered out by a loving creator, etc.

    What makes these tales more believable than Thor's hammer and Walhalla?

  99. "There is no pending comment for approval and no one deletes comments in this site."

    Spam? There is a curious lack of it.

  100. " You are playing mental gymnastics to save the reputation of the Quran and prove that despite the dozens of inconsistencies, the Quran is right! "

    Another meaningless comment – but this is the OBVIOUS and EXPECTED response.

    However the real problem is you have not backed it up – making mere assertions is MEANINGLESS!!!!

  101. [[[["***"Qur'an mentioned earth spread out like carpet which has been interpreted as being flat. Carpet always used on ground right. "

    Interpreted as... not what the Quran actually says. All that is mentioned is extending or spreading of Earth***
    --------------

    Let me make sure I understood you right. Are you saying that there are verses in the Qu’ran that can be interpreted different than what the Quran actually says? " ]]]]

    One can easily tell when some has an agenda they wish to air – no matter what you say. knowTheEnemy – I suspect you already wanted to air your false view about quran saying it is only meant to be taken literally – hence you distorted what I said to suit you

    - – -

    I clearly said that in the above verse quran does not call the Earth flat.

    So – how did you arrive at this –

    "Let me make sure I understood you right. Are you saying that there are verses in the Qu’ran that can be interpreted different than what the Quran actually says?"

    When – What I actually said does not lead to the above statement.

  102. The above comment you associate to me – isn't mine – however there were many problems with what you re saying. So I am replying to them.

    - – -

    You misunderstand what a metaphor is and its usage. Also – there is some differences between a "metaphor" and "allegory".

    – - –

    "What this ayat is saying is that a ‘good’ Muslim should not interpret the verses different from what is written, and must accept them literally as they are."

    No it isn't – you have either misconstrued or misunderstood.

    " Please read all three translations (Yusufali, Pickthal, Shakir) carefully."

    I don't need to – I refer to the Arabic myself – which I understand.

    " It also says that those who take any verses to mean something else, or take them to be metaphors or allegories"

    However look at what the verse actually says:

    "some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical"

    Quran clearly says that some verses ARE allegorical.

    Hence:

    It also says that those who take any verses to mean something else, or take them to be metaphors or allegories, are “seeking discord”, “trying to cause dissension by seeking to explain it”, and “seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.”

    This isn't quite true. Also an allegory and metaphor can be 2 different things.

    Quran:

    " then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation."

    Muslims scholars have clear principles, methods and science as to how the law is derived from language of the Quran.

    Those that Quran refers to are the ones who will disregard agreed upon methods and choose to believe anything for their own hearts desire.

    Hence look at the last part:

    "And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."

    - – -

    – - –

    One clear example of metaphorical usage is – Quran uses the word MASSA مس (touch) sometimes to mean "sexual intercourse". However if you read that to mean touch – those verses would not make so much sense.

    – - –

    "The Quran wants the readers to know literally that Earth is flat"

    You have just given me a load of waffle on how the Quran is saying that it is meant to be literal all the way through. Yet look how quickly that fell apart.

    QURAN DOES NOT CALL THE EARTH FLAT – TO SPREAD SOMETHING OUT – DOES NOT MEAN IT IS FLAT!

    This is either you misunderstanding or purposeful deceit. I don't know which yet.

    - – -

    [[ "“trying to cause dissension by seeking to explain it”, and “seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.” " ]]

    I will repeat as a summary – Re read those verses. Quran says that some verses are ALLEGORICAL and when discord is spread it is spread using these.

    You have asserted that Quran is saying it is meant to be taken literally – yet that is NOT the case. Neither do the above verses say that
    - – -

  103. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Wednesday 25 July 2012, 7:24 am

    I congratulate you for your stupidity. You know your enemy and you don't know who is you talking to ? here I am !

    Ok my dear enemy If I fire a bullet towards you . You think bullet is reaching you straight but the path of bullet have curve with huge radius equivalent to radius of earth.

    So any spread out thing can't be flat. Its earth which decide about carpet , its not carpet which decide about earth

    You are bit UN-educated to understand scriptures learn perceptions,perspectives, metaphors.

  104. Not a good definition – let me give you a better one.

    "A metaphor is a literary figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise unrelated object. Metaphor is a type of analogy and is closely related to other rhetorical figures of speech that achieve their effects via association, comparison or resemblance including allegory, hyperbole, and simile."

    Wiki

    - – -

    Quran does use metaphors – it is considered as literature – with literary merits. However not necessarily in these verses.

  105. knowTheEnemy

    "Quran says Earth is spread out multiple times in many different ayats. The picture that automatically comes to a person’s mind is that of a FLAT Earth."

    Only because this is a forced image. Because you have read so many claims the image stays. But with in the veracity of what the Quran says – it cannot be discerned that Quran calls the Earth flat.

    Just because you get images… that really is your problem. The question here is about hard evidence – not mere speculation which counts for nothing.

    - – -

    "There isn’t a single thing mentioned in the book that gives any hint to the reader that Earth might not be flat."

    True – And I have said that. Yet it neither gives any real hints that Earth is flat.

    - – -

    "Not to mention Quran calling mountains ‘pegs’ and Sun setting in a pool of muddy water."

    And? Don't go off in another direction. Both are observable and rather simple imagery. That is all.

    - – -

    "Surely, God, realising that most of his creation believed the earth was flat, would have sent something that completely contrasts with this belief which would become obvious to any new reader of the Qur'an. "

    huh? Why – if Quran was going to challenge one myth – why not a whole host of others? Quran is a "religious" book and not a science book. Its purpose is

    Also – wouldn't an all knowing God already know that eventually humans will discover this? By observing Earth from space and etc.

    - – -

    "This leaves no doubt in any reader’s mind that Quran is calling the Earth flat. "

    Yet based upon what? The only reason that "flat earth" is even associated is becuase "flat earth" used to be a prevalent theory.

    However – there is plenty of evidence that Muslim Scholars – scientists and religious already discovered the Earth not to be flat but spherical. There is plethora of evidence – from 8th century onwards. Also of its use in a religious context.

    Notion of a spherical Earth predates Islam to the Greeks and Romans.

    - – -

    Quran does not call the Earth flat or any other shape – neither the word "spread out" indicates towards any shape.

    Something can be "spread out" over any surface of 2D or 3D shape.

    - – -

    You only only motivation is "anti-Quran" – as far as actual evidence goes – you don't really have much.

  106. When I reply – I always use my name – "Amin Riaz" – any post that doesn't have this isn't mine.

  107. Amin, you say that metaphors are used in the Quran, so e.g. when it says carpet, it is supposed to be interpreted as ‘crust of Earth’ or something similar.

    You said a very similar thing in a different post:
    ***"Qur'an mentioned earth spread out like carpet which has been interpreted as being flat. Carpet always used on ground right. "

    Interpreted as… not what the Quran actually says. All that is mentioned is extending or spreading of Earth***
    —————————-

    Unfortunately, the Quran disagrees with you. Here is what it says in Q 3:007

    “”YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
    PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations – they are the substance of the Book – and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
    SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.””

    What this ayat is saying is that a ‘good’ Muslim should not interpret the verses different from what is written, and must accept them literally as they are. Please read all three translations (Yusufali, Pickthal, Shakir) carefully. It also says that those who take any verses to mean something else, or take them to be metaphors or allegories, are “seeking discord”, “trying to cause dissension by seeking to explain it”, and “seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.”

    In other words, you are giving me your own interpretation, and DISOBEYING the Quran. The Quran wants the readers to know literally that Earth is flat, that sun sets in a muddy pool of water, that mountains are pegs holding the surface, that shooting stars are missiles being thrown by Allah on eavesdropping jinns etc etc.

  108. Dear Ms Ali Sina, Atheism is man made and it will die when an athiest die. Why not look beyond that far horizon and you'll find that indeed there's life beyond the grave and that's true freedom indeed! :)

  109. Who is the cruel one? is it me or the one with her mouth wide open ready to devour
    all kinds of animals? It seems that you are willing to eat everything. If they start to
    sell poop on a stick, you will want to try that also.

    Do you how this piece of meat ended up in your plate? you are not only stupid but
    vulgar as well. All my sympathy for your future husband, he will be broke in no time
    because of your eating habits.

  110. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Wednesday 25 July 2012, 4:05 am

    Metaphor : A figure of speech in which an implied comparison is made between two unlike things that actually have something in common.

    E.g. Carpet and Crust of earth [ both are similar as layers and as comfortable surface ]

    You think carpet is flat ignoring gravitational force acting on carpet and huge radius of curve that carpet posses if spread on earth.

  111. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Wednesday 25 July 2012, 3:52 am

    Well scriptures intended and have reasoning for all man kind and surely not for only readers with spectacles !!

    Always Happy.

  112. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Wednesday 25 July 2012, 3:40 am

    You just prove yourself are not fake but real ! You will no longer be depressed !

  113. I do not think G W Bush's motives for going to war with Irak were religious. He wasn't fighting Islam, he was fighting terrorism, and he was fighting a dictator. What the Americans didn't understand was that Saddam knew how to rule Irak, and that Western-style democracy just doesn't work over there. Today the West (unlike Russia) doesn't understand that Western-style democracy will not work in Syria, or they wouldn't be so eager to get Al Assad out of power.

    Religion has long ceased to be preeminent in the Western mindset. Religion is seen as something personal when taken seriously, or quaintly folkloric when observing the rituals. There's strong conviction that it should not influence public policy, to the point that our political leaders cheerfully ignore the pope and other religious leaders when making public policy (like abortion and euthanasia laws). Of course, the fact that society allows euthanasia doesn't mean a christian has to support it; it's just that society will not enforce christian morals on non-christians.

    In islam, religion is both personal (only you and your god know how sincere you are) and public. Shariah doesn't deal only with your relationship with god, but also with the organisation of society. It's objective is to enforce islamic morals on the whole of society, on muslims and non-muslims alike.

    As I said above, most Westerns don't understand this fundamental distinction, and they see Islam as just another variation of a personal religion, playing a role in the moral, but not the political sphere. Muslims, on the other hand, do not understand that religion is not primordial, and hence they continue to think of the secular Western nations as christian nations.

    Ali Sina argues that islam, unlike other religions, is incapable of retreating into the personal sphere. Robert Spencer argues that muslims in the West are a fifth column. Received opinion in the West is that extremists of all ilk are the problem, that the average muslim will quite happily integrate in a pluralistic society, and forget or ignore those parts of his creed that make this difficult, just like the christians did. With a "commendable" dose of self-criticism, extremists christians are perceived as more of a problem than extremist muslims, and the recent colonial past of the West is seen as the main root of terrorism (cheerfully ignoring earlier non-Western colonial behaviour).

    The common point is that Ali Sina, Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller all see islam as an unreformable threat to Western societies. Ali Sina goes further and sees islam as a threat to humanity as a whole.

    Of course, muslims see islam as the only hope for humanity.

    The questions I have are: can islam be one of the many religions in a secular society, accepting to play the game by rules that will sometimes clash with the rules in islam (in other words, heeding human rules instead of its concept of divine rules). Can islam see other religions as different, but equally valid paths to knowing god? Can islam accept that what it sees as incontrovertible proof of the existence of its god can be less than convincing to non-muslims, not because they reject the obvious truth (and hence are bad people), but just because the proofs aren't very convincing unless you already accept islam?

  114. Read is a strange verb. The present and past tenses are the same, and I thought there would be enough contrast between the "have read" and "read" to signal that in the latter case, the present tense was what I intended. But I grant you I could have formulated it more carefully.

    I no longer read the holy books of religions. At varsity I read Thomistic Philosophy but the writings of theologians are only interesting if you buy into the religion to begin with. I still actively read secular philosophical and scientific works.

    Happy?

  115. Means your Quran can't give a sound enough explaination to convince unbelievers to believe.

    Once upon a time I used to believe in old indian stories where Earth was described as flat, and I didn't have a slightest idea that it could be round. Then I read a science book that explained that Earth was round like a ball. I didn't want to believe these science books, but they explained it SO WELL that I had no option but to realize that the scientists were right and the old stories were wrong.

    Apparently, the scientists can do a BETTER job of making someone believe (without threats of voilence or hellfire) than Muhammad's Allah. All he can do is make hollow excuses like the one in Quran 2:7.

  116. Let me get this straight! Are you saying that **metaphors** are used in the Qu'ran?

    Definition of 'metaphor':

    – "something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol."

  117. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Tuesday 24 July 2012, 6:01 pm

    It's logically good to think earth is flat or you will fall out in space, take care !

    Watch earth from space tell me which is north and which is west. Isn't that BS you believe is truth?

    Guide is always to help everyone from all level of intelligence or preference and no lie indeed. Metaphor is used which describe truth.

  118. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Tuesday 24 July 2012, 5:50 pm

    "that is not going to convince anyone here"

    [2:7] Those who have disbelieved — it being equal to them whether thou warn them or warn them not — they will not believe.

  119. ***"Qur'an mentioned earth spread out like carpet which has been interpreted as being flat. Carpet always used on ground right. "

    Interpreted as… not what the Quran actually says. All that is mentioned is extending or spreading of Earth***
    ————–

    Let me make sure I understood you right. Are you saying that there are verses in the Qu’ran that can be interpreted different than what the Quran actually says?

  120. You are playing mental gymnastics to save the reputation of the Quran and prove that despite the dozens of inconsistencies, the Quran is right!

    Sorry Amin, that is not going to convince anyone here at FFI

  121. @ Amin Riaz

    Quran says Earth is spread out multiple times in many different ayats. The picture that automatically comes to a person’s mind is that of a FLAT Earth. There isn’t a single thing mentioned in the book that gives any hint to the reader that Earth might not be flat. Not to mention Quran calling mountains ‘pegs’ and Sun setting in a pool of muddy water. Here is how a commentator on this thread by the name JPPaul88 explained it:

    ""The thing is, even if someone today who believed the earth was flat, read the Qur'an (even a modern translation that removes words like 'bed' and 'carpet'), there is nothing in this book that contrasts with his belief that the earth is flat. Not at any point does Allah say "the earth is round", or "the earth, it is shaped like a ball", or "if you were to travel from one place on the earth, and keep going in a straight line, you will end up at your original location".
    Surely, God, realising that most of his creation believed the earth was flat, would have sent something that completely contrasts with this belief which would become obvious to any new reader of the Qur'an.
    This is, on it's own, enough to assert that Allah is either extremely careless, or he simply doesn't exist and that these were the words of this so-called prophet, based on the very common belief amongst humans that the earth is flat.
    ""

    This leaves no doubt in any reader’s mind that Quran is calling the Earth flat.

  122. Pork is very similar to chicken and bacon is just delicious. Having said that, I avoid meat as much as I can. Lately I am on vacation and only cook vegetarian at home, and go out for a meat dish only once in a week or so. You said in your post "and treat others the way I'd want to be treated". I feel the same way and I know that just like humans do not want to be killed, animals don't either.

    However for practical reasons, I have not been able to give up meat completely yet. I also would hesitate to ask you to think of becoming vegetarian, since it may make your life very difficult at home. Secondly, since you have just become free, maybe you should enjoy your freedom for a while and eat any meat you want. When you are independent, and don't have the parent's sword hanging on your head, that would be the best time for you to think about whether you want to give up meat or not.

  123. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Tuesday 24 July 2012, 4:15 pm

    "I read philosophy. I have read the Bibel, and the Quran. I read science. "!!!
    wow what a tummy dunnit !!!

    Your next task is
    Read philosophy. Read the Bibel, and the Quran. Read science.

  124. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Tuesday 24 July 2012, 4:11 pm

    This is the most stupid argument "I am an atheist but I rather see Muslims convert to Christianity "

    Do you know after some age people start loosing height ! And brain keep swinging lol

  125. I read philosophy. I have read the Bibel, and the Quran. I read science. Using that information I consider my actions. I practice non-violence. I do not merely pray for the wellbeing of others, knowing that such internal words will not benefit them. If and when possible, I contribute to the well-being of others by meeting their needs. I don't know how I will be buried, and I don't care, as I will not be there to see it. Burying me is the privilege those who will be there, and it should meet their needs.

  126. Letting go of religion is not easy. The more devout and convinced your parents are, the more difficult it is, because you love your parents and do not want to hurt them. In my case, when I started to think for myself I began doubting my religion, but it took 10 years and my marriage (for love, to a marvellous girl my mother disliked, but in the church, the celebration conducted by a canon who was a good friend of my father's) to let go. It was when I started my own life, my own family that the influence of my parents ceased to be determining.

    I would also suggest to go to your Qur'an classes. Try and do more than memorise sounds you do not understand. Even if you don't want to learn Arabic (understandable), this is an opportunity to understand and reflect upon the words that enthrall so many people. Not everything in religion is bad, and leaving your religion might also mean leaving your community, your family. The more you know about what you are leaving (the good and the bad), the easier it will be to bear the loss.

    I wish you well.

  127. I highly recommend – Understanding Muhammad by Ali Sina. Could even get many basics right. As for the little "untruths"….

  128. "Allah is greatest looser. Allah made the universe to get itself worshiped. But There are more than 80% population of non-believers in Quranic Allah."

    huh? You really should think things through – before posting whatever comes to your mind. How does the above even make sense?

  129. "It is Islam that I have problem with."

    That is clear. However what isn't is getting in bed with likes Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer.

    - – -

    Right wing fundamentalist Christians are just as bad the Muslim ones. And with even more firepower and influence.

    - – -

    As an example – it is not a simple question of whether Saddam should go – but the way it was carried out. A country with virtually no military to speak of was attacked with "shock and awe".

    Those you so canoodle with aren't your average peace loving Christians.

    - – -

    You dehumanize Muslims and so do they. Eradication of Islam – at any cost. And the same mouth will tell you that they believe in "freedom of speech & expression".

  130. "Because Mr Sina wants everybody on this forum to behave in a civilised manner, you are spared from a few decisive adjectives. "

    Then he should act on this advice himself first.

  131. The video author says that older commentaries refer to a "flat" earth. Yet this simply isn't true.

    He was going to explain the word MADDA – does it really mean "spread out" – but then he shows a screen claiming that Ibn Abbas Ibn Kathir and Jalalyn call the earth flat.

    Which they don't.

    - – -

    One example – Quran 79:30

    Jalalyn uses the word BaSaTa بَسَطَ – this word means the same as Madda. Hence where did he get the idea of "flat" from?

  132. I was thirteen when the description of the catholic limbo made me revolt against the faith I was born into, but I continued to be an altarboy. At fifteen I had read the Bible, and the Qur'an. At seventeen I was still singing the Gregorian liturgy. Letting go of religion is a drawn-out process, made more difficult by the belief of the family. My father is a devout convert to Catholicism who honestly believes hell exists and his son risks going there; on the other hand, he taught at University. It is possible for one part of you to believe the teachings of your faith (even the ridiculous ones), and another part to reject them. Sometimes one part of you desperately wants the comfort, certainty and security of religion.

    I don't know if the story of A.M. is true. I do recognise the ambivalence, the doubts. At eighteen, in Paris, away from my family for the very first time (with an international group of students who had all won a prestigious French language essay prize) I desperately wanted to attend a non-catholic service but could not bring myself to do so for fear of doing something morally despicable. I was losing my religion, but it was still very much part of me, so I weaseled out of accompanying three friendly African (Ghanean if memory serves) students who had located a Methodist Church in Paris and thought it was marvellous to have found a fellow Methodist (OK, I lied to them).

    It is unfortunate that articles like these get lots of knee-jerk replies, but I can imagine how difficult it is for a girl to doubt Islam. If she comes from a devout family, she has been force-fed the belief that she is lost and powerless without a husband. She will also know the extreme prejudice against girls marrying non-muslims. And she will experience the pain of doubt within a doubt-free family. There is nothing sadder than not being able to confide in your parents, especially when they might believe it more virtuous to love their religion than their children.

  133. "YUSUFALI: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. "

    (like a carpet) – this is NOT part of the Quran. Accuracy!

    - – -

    Quran neither calls the earth "flat" or "spherical".

    - – -

  134. "Qur'an mentioned earth spread out like carpet which has been interpreted as being flat. Carpet always used on ground right. "

    Interpreted as… not what the Quran actually says. All that is mentioned is extending or spreading of Earth.

    Something can be extended or spread out on any surface – spherical or flat. The Quran neither calls the Earth "Flat" nor Spherical.

    - – -

    Concept of spherical earth was known from 8th century – Muslims astronomers and geographers measured the circumference of Earth to a pretty accurate degree. The y used this to find the Qibla.

    - – -

    However this was not their discovery as such. This was already known by the Greeks much earlier.

  135. I have already watched this. Some of the science explained is faulty. The bit about how the earth's crust was formed.

  136. "I feel sorry for you. Not really because you're Muslim, but because you're cruel. To call a young person empty and stupid is sad. "

    Based on calling someone "stupid" or "empty" – does not equal "cruel".

    - – -

  137. "What is your point? That you are saying something so important and damaging to me that I am scared of it and remove it so no one can read them? "

    I made or neither indicated at any such thing – this is nothing more than you assumption.

    All I have said is that – I posted twice and they have gone missing.

    Then the attitude from you. It says a lot.

    - – -

    "You have nothing valuable to say and people can see that by reading your comments. "

    Of course you would say that. All one has to illicit such remark is to be a Muslim.

  138. This is the last time I'm replying to MoonShadow:
    I feel sorry for you. Not really because you're Muslim, but because you're cruel. To call a young person empty and stupid is sad. That someone who has the audacity to do that…I feel sorry for you! Maybe you have a bit of good in you if only you'd get over your haughtiness. I mentioned pork and wine because those are things I can do without Islam. If you remember my earlier comments you'd see that is not why I left. You taught me about how low humans can get, but that made me stronger. I know you will come back with a last word. Go ahead, I'm moving on and your bad attitude is not going to bring me down.

  139. If you are an atheist how do you get spiritual upliftment, meditate or pray for the wellbeing of others. I would also like to know how you will be buried when you die.

  140. Well I am an atheist but I rather see Muslims convert to Christianity than remaining Muslim. It is not that I mind people believing in God or religion. It is Islam that I have problem with.

  141. Hi M.A., it's time for you to celebrate your freedom like a jailbird being set free from bondage. I'm happy that alas, you're set free from this Islamic sinkhole. Yes, you're right to say that you don't need a religion to be a good person but what you really need is the absolute Truth because only Truth has the power to set you free and then, you're absolutely free indeed.Pork taste like chicken except that it's texture is similar to beef. I used to be a meat eater but nowadays, I aspire to be a vegetarian like my dear Ms Ali Sina and Mr Jonathan Harrel and I must confess that I fall in love with fruits and vegetables and ocassionally, I'll eat meat to maintain a balanced diet. ;)

  142. What is your point? That you are saying something so important and damaging to me that I am scared of it and remove it so no one can read them? Get real and don\’t be ridiculous. You have nothing valuable to say and people can see that by reading your comments.

  143. An apt choice… a woman who joined a right-wing think tank. After denouncing not just Islam but all religions. She was and still is a celebrity atheist.

    Yet she called for all Muslims to be converted Christianity.

    - – -

    One has to wonder at such phenomena – observable here too. That is why "Robert Spencer" is given such a highlinght.

    A fundamentalist Christian – that probably influenced the death of thousands of humans beings.

  144. "So I suggest that YOU go wash your face and think a bit more clearly. Yes, you are a peace loving Muslim, that's why you're willing to call a 15 year old "a stupid". "

    Calling a 15 year old person stupid does not mean that a person cannot be "peace loving".

    - – -

    " That's why he seems to have a fit because I refuse to starve myself for over 10 hours."

    Really? A being who you think does not exist is having fits!

    - – -

    " It is like saying Merry Christmas in Saudi Arabia."

    And? If a christian said to a fellow Christian in Saudi "Merry Christmas" would it be so wrong?

    - – -

    "Yes, you may have addressed Muslims, but this is an anti-Islamic website, so would it really be reasonable to wish a happy Ramadan on a site where most of us are against Islam?"

    Why would it be unreasonable?

  145. "M.A. another victim of Islam. I think sometime there is no God. This madman (Mohammed) ruined the life of billions of people. Islam is fear, fear, fear."

    Ruined in what way? Such generalisations are ridiculous and pretty meaningless.

  146. "No thanks, I don't think a loving god, if he exists, would want you to starve yourself."

    Abstaining from food and drink for less than a day is hardly – starving yourself. And the sentiment behind it is a good one. Solidarity with the ones starving.

  147. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Tuesday 24 July 2012, 6:51 am

    Qur'an mentioned earth spread out like carpet which has been interpreted as being flat. Carpet always used on ground right. So if I have carpet spread all over ground then geoscientifically it is not flat but visually its flat. Ok define up and down on earth geoscientifically there is no up, no down, no horizontal, no vertical.These are all our scientific assumptions which help us logically. So logically If I think earth is sphere and right now I am walking upside down this will give me psychosis.

    Geologically we know there is a layer of crust over mantle and core of earth. Ignoring origin of igneous , sedimentary or metamorphic rocks we know crust is like a carpet (a comfortable surface) over mantle for surviving.

    So earth spread out like carpet is language of belief which is truth independent of further illustration like gravitational force, geoscience, assumptions, psychology etc.

  148. Please also watch this video. It explains why the Quran claims Earth to be 'flat' again and again in so many different ayas:

    [youtube _FaNg_nxqns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns youtube]

  149. Ok, you asked for it:

    Quran 015.019
    YUSUFALI: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.
    PICKTHAL: And the earth have We spread out, and placed therein firm hills, and caused each seemly thing to grow therein.
    SHAKIR: And the earth– We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.

  150. "eat pork!"

    Says it all!

  151. " "wow, good thing I'm not a part of them anymore." They can doubt all they want"

    Yes – you paste a feeble and a common story – and hence forth – you have refused to answer any challenging questions.

    It is not a simple case of authenticity. But your story has one hole too many.

    - – -

    Then there is the attitude:

    " To see the Muslims here arguing about my authenticity…"

    I find it rather surprising – people [Sina a case in point] who would claim to be humanitarians and then tend to be very selective in their "love". The quick and petty insults, the generalisations, the prejudice and stereotyping. For example anyone Muslim is quickly labeled and bagged.

    Why such attitude?

  152. "Oh yes, she IS real. And why are you so worried?"

    Any evidence? Mere asserting one thing over and over – will not make it true.

  153. "In that case you are lying."

    Or you are. I twice posted comments here – both disappeared.

    - – -

    And what is with the "troll" attitude?

  154. "I just double checked, and M.A. did indeed say that she lives in the US. She said this in one of her early comments. "

    I am asking you to paste the quote here – where? I cannot find it. Maybe its hidden in nested comments. Show me.

  155. That is not good enough! i asked you a specific question – you did not answer – nor did the article you pointed to.

    Bin Baz later retracted his fatwa – that is according to his Salafi followers.

    - – -

    "Please do not tell Shaykh ‘Abdul-’Azeez ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Baaz of Islamic University of Medina, in Saudi Arabia that you dispute the claim "Earth is flat", or else you will be in big trouble"

    Again – what kind of comment is above and how does it relate to what I asked.

  156. How so is it meaningful? – You have the habit of posting odd and badly thought out comments all over the place. I wonder at the motivation of wasting so much time.

    A lot of the time your thought strands do not connect to the discussion at hand.

  157. Why don't you just tell your parents to mind their business?

  158. You are precious !

  159. Why should I hate him? because he married many women and took some as
    slaves? I was not one of those women. Because he killed some Jews? but
    I am not a Jew. No Muslim put a gun in my head and threatened to blow it off
    if I don't follow the teachings of Mohammad.

  160. Thanks…….and let me add this: your family might rush you to the nearest cemetary
    and put an end to your depression and misery.

  161. Now I understand you better (if you exist), and I understand why you want to leave Islam……
    It is all for pork, liqure and sex. Empty, stupid girl……other religions also disrespect females
    like you, infact every one with morality (atheists included) have no respect to a reckless, shameless, moving stomach like you.

  162. That's right. If Allah can't even get this part right, how 'great' he could possibly be?

  163. I can do so much that I could have never done. Life became so exciting all of a sudden, so free! I never knew it could be like this. Knowing that I have free choice is a powerful feeling. Of course, it's not like I'm going to go overboard and become alcoholic, but just think of going to a nice cocktail party every now and then…? I'd still be a good, moral person, and treat others the way I'd want to be treated. I don't need religion to be a good person.

    And can someone enlighten me on what pork is like? Is it good? Is it better than beef or chicken?

  164. knowTheEnemy: That's true. Then I'd be able to use it to my advantage. Thank you for your advice, it makes me feel less alone. I might have to come here often to vent, because being alone in apostasy is driving me crazy. Everything looks so surreal, like a daze. For example, if I'm at a sandwich shop, I used to instinctively order turkey or roast beef (and some Muslims would say that even THAT is haram because the meat wasn't "slaughtered in the name of Allah) and avoid pork, but now, I'd gaze at the salami, pepperoni, ham, baloney, bacon…and realize…oh my god I can actually eat this! And I can actually drink wine when I'm old enough! And I can wear a bikini to the pool! And I don't have to feel guilty listening to music! I can do my hair! I can draw! And I can date! And eat pork! And wear bikinis…and eat pork! (Hyperventilates)

  165. What a peaceful Muslim you are. Allah would be proud.

  166. In that case you are lying.

  167. If you read the life of Muhammad you will find plenty of reasons to hate him.

  168. Lock yourself in the closet and play dead!

  169. Now I am certain that any attempt made to create an intellictual discussion with any
    anti-Islamic individual will be futile, because his mind is rigid and focused on hatred….he is ready and willing to believe any lie, even if he knows it is a lie.
    I said I have no faith in Mohammad, yet I have no reason to hate him and also no reason to fall in love with him.

    Nothing irritates me more than lies and the crooked methods to achieve someone's goals. If the purpose of this site is the truth, I will be the first admirer.

    The only person who knows that I am right is the one who impersonated a 15 year old girl, and he might be a man over 50, and the rest believe what they want to believe or what they wish it is true. I am very familiar with the writing style of this story,
    and I am sorry to tell you that you either lack intelligence or you are obstinate.

  170. I just double checked, and M.A. did indeed say that she lives in the US. She said this in one of her early comments.

    Please do not tell Shaykh ‘Abdul-’Azeez ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Baaz of Islamic University of Medina, in Saudi Arabia that you dispute the claim "Earth is flat", or else you will be in big trouble. Please read this article (link below), then we will talk more- http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/

  171. My suggestion is, DO go to the Qur'an classes and memorize the verses. Having memorized them will help later on when you are more actively exposing Islam. But do not ask the teacher any questions, or raise any doubts. Just do the minimum that you need to, so as to keep away unwanted attention.
    In your everyday life too, pretend to be a Muslim and do at least the minimum that is needed to stay safe and avoid your relatives' suspictions. But not much more than the minimum.
    Also, be careful what you say on this board. Bad people can indirectly find you based on what you say.

  172. Good! You are smart M.A.

  173. I am serious about what I wrote! That IS a meaningful comment.

  174. "cos the whole world knows pakistani muslims are all islamic militants and jihadists that will kill any body for there precious god mohammed ( with there blasphemy laws and other nonesense ) "

    Once again – this site is nothing more than an encouragement towards hate… comments such as these are free.

    Sina isn't himself averse to making such pronouncements.

  175. " Besides calling you a fake, these people make you feel bad and feel guilty about having those kind of feelings towards your family. And they call you a psychopath. "

    Dearest…. who are you talking about here?

  176. "Only Islamoretards think you're fake.
    Because they can't digest that one of their own is brave enough to call a spade a spade. "

    I didn't think you were in the business of BELIEVING. So what evidence do you have that M.A. is real?

    Now is the time to share it….

    - – -

  177. "Read the Quran, Sira, and Hadith! There you will see some REAL prejudice, violence, and hatred. "

    One day – you might actually come up with a meaningful comment – why don't you wait until you really have something to say.

  178. "She already said earlier that she lives in the US."

    I am asking again – paste a quote where she claims to be from US? I still haven't found it.

  179. "She already said earlier that she lives in the US"

    Where? I did not see it.

    - – -

    "For example, the verses claiming Earth to be 'flat like carpet' "

    Considering you have read it – why don't you point it out and we will see how true this comment is.

    I will say it clearly for your benefit. Quran does not claim:

    [[ Earth to be 'flat like carpet' ]]

  180. "If you don't want to believe then don't! Go somewhere else. 'There is no compulsion in' visiting alisina.org"

    What has visiting here and believing the BS got to do with each other? Try to "think" before making a comment.

  181. "It was deleted by whom? You posted this in exmuslimblog and they deleted it?"

    It is a bit obvious I meant here.

  182. How do I deal with my Qur'an classes? My parents make me go to the mosque to memorize Qur'an. But now that I don't see any meaning to it, what should I do about that?

  183. Confused,
    I have a health problem in which I have to eat often, so my parents say I don't need to fast. If I didn't, I would sneak some food when they aren't looking, or eat at school or a friend's house.
    I could care less about how I get buried. I'd prefer to be cremated and have my ashes spread in the sea. But even if I get buried the Islamic way, it's not like it means much to my dead body anyway. When I'm gone, I'm gone. Perhaps peoples' souls go on to another realm. Or maybe the end is just the end. Whichever it is, I don't think I'll be here on earth to care so much about where my body goes anyway.

  184. It's M.A again. I'd like to thank knowTheEnemy and Loki.

    Watching this conversastion was a bit entertaining. To see the Muslims here arguing about my authenticity, and then I'm sitting here knowing to myself that I sure am real! I won't let them bother me, actually, reading what they wrote made me think, "wow, good thing I'm not a part of them anymore." They can doubt all they want, but I'll be moving on from now on. One thing I'd like to add is,

  185. There is no pending comment for approval and no one deletes comments in this site.

  186. M.A wrote:
    " This imam is so charismatic that within 2yrs, he became the new leader of the mosque. People old enough to be his parent treat him as if he is the messiah ( mahdi ). My mosque is also very small so he has a firm grip on the people. And his fame is increasing. "
    I had my doubts about the authenticity and credibility of the person of MA, but after reading the above text I have no more doubts. The above is written by a 15 year old,
    One advice MA. Your childish comments could have people triangulate and locate you easily, its better you watch what you post cos the whole world knows pakistani muslims are all islamic militants and jihadists that will kill any body for there precious god mohammed ( with there blasphemy laws and other nonesense ) keep yourself safe as mush you can, JESUS is the way, the truth and the life no one can go to the father except through him
    All prophets in the bible always bless there people some even blessed foreigners( who are non jewish ) but the muslim god "mohammed" had nothing but curses to pronounse to people. If muslims were sharp they would have noticed it.

  187. It was deleted by whom? You posted this in exmuslimblog and they deleted it?

  188. Excellent response, Loki. Two thumbs up!

  189. Exposing Islam, saving people from doing evil things, and saving them from a life of misery IS positive and constructive. Everyone should do what FFI is doing.

    Creating new techniques to do spiritual Jihad on the other hand, is neither positive nor constuctive!

  190. I wondered why didn't Google had Ramadan doodle so far?????????

    Here is what Google said on its official blog:

    We’re sharing the Islamic prayers live from Mecca on a dedicated YouTube channel. Millions of people from around the world will be able to experience and comment on the event by tuning in via video.

    Ramadan is about more than just prayer; it is also a special moment to gather with friends and family. Muslims gather to watch special television shows produced for the holiday and shown only during Ramadan. Often the shows overlap in scheduling. This year, for the first time, YouTube is enabling people to watch their favorite shows anytime, anywhere. A new YouTube Ramadan channel lets viewers see more than 50 premium Ramadan shows the same day they air. In the clip below, famed Syrian actor Jamal Suliman appears in a drama:

    Ramadan’s tastiest tradition is the food. After fasting through the day, families gather for evening break-the-fast meals called Iftar. Through Google+ Hangouts, we’re hosting 30 virtual get-togethers in the 30 days of Ramadan, in which celebrity chefs will share their favorite recipes and doctors will give tips on eating healthy.

    The hangouts will engage people in subjects far beyond eating. Actors will talk about their favorite Ramadan shows. Poets will discuss literature inspired by the holiday. Religious figures will answer questions. Stay tuned to the Google Arabia page on Google+ for more details and join in.

    We hope you enjoy experiencing your favorite Ramadan traditions with a digital twist this year. Ramadan Kareem!

  191. M.A. Besides calling you a fake, these people make you feel bad and feel guilty about having those kind of feelings towards your family. And they call you a psychopath. These are all tricks to cause you emotional distress, so that you go back to Islam. Islam is more important to them. Your feelings and what you are going through is not!

    Like I said earlier, do NOT fall for their manipulations.

  192. Read the Quran, Sira, and Hadith! There you will see some REAL prejudice, violence, and hatred.

  193. The Quran is a FAKE 'holy' book too!

  194. You said you don't have faith in Muhammad, yet you are looking for ways to save his reputation. Intriguing!

    "but certainly he had a writer"

    One good example of such writer is Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Sarh

  195. She already said earlier that she lives in the US. You obviously write comments before reading everything. May I suggest that you re-read your 'holy' books to make sure you didn't miss something. For example, the verses claiming Earth to be 'flat like carpet'

  196. If you don't want to believe then don't! Go somewhere else. 'There is no compulsion in' visiting alisina.org

  197. Oh yes, she IS real. And why are you so worried?

  198. For one,thanks for agreeing that the 72 virgins thing is disgusting.

    You have made assumptions as well and used unsound reasoning to conclude that this girl is a fake, and then complaining that I'm making them ?!
    I'm not saying M.A. can't be fake.I'm saying your arguments are not enough to prove she's fake.You can't be sure that she's fake unless you see someone else typing into the system.
    Your assumptions and flawed reasoning:-
    1. Assumption: M.A. has written so clearly that it can't be written by 15 year olds.15 year olds writing decent English is rare.
    Flawed reasoning: It's rare and hence she can't be a real person.

    Her writing is no way "rare".It's good,with few grammatical mistakes but it's very writable by a 15 year old.She's said that she thinks more about these issues,it maybe a manifestation of years of thinking.

    2. Flawed Reasoning: She seems talented and yet living in a nightmare of hereafter, not possible for a talented person?

    Wrong.There's no established co-relation between the two.Many talented people are known to be idiosyncratic.And she's only 15, brought up under the fear of Islam. It's very natural of her to be afraid. We see so many talents die down because of lack of discipline, substance abuse etc. Many talented people have crossed the threshold of sanity into lunacy.
    But I don't think that's the case here. She's trying to say that she 'was' pestered by these thoughts of a cruel God, divine virgins for satisfying carnal desires of men etc. These were probably few of the reasons why she started doubting Islam.

    3. "If she left Islam and has no faith in it, then how can you justify her fear from the Islamic hell? "
    She has said "I consider myself agnostic" and "I refuse to bow to a narcissistic "god" ".
    Makes it clear? She is unwilling to bow to this pathetic God, but isn't sure if she'll be tormented after death.So where's the contradiction? Maybe you jumped to your conclusions too fast?

    4. You said my #1 was assumption. It was partly an assumption,but partly a chain of thought that led to that assumption. But yes it was an assumption .I was surprised how you were proclaiming that M.A. was a "fake girl"("This whole story is ludicrous") with mere assumptions and reasoning that was unsound.Thbis gave me four possibilities:-
    1)You were doubtful of Ali Sina in the first place, had some grudge against him from past experience.
    2)It could be that you generally suck at reasoning
    3)You are good at reasoning and had an off day.

    2 was less probable from your other comments.I can't be sure of 3.So I settled with 1.
    And since Ali Sina is anti-Islam, what other motive you might have other than being a muslim yourself?

    You have said in some other comment that you are agnostic.If so,how does this matter to you if this story is true or not? Neither I can establish that it's true – for I don't know.I gave some reasons why it could be true.Nor can you establish that it's false.If that's the case, and you are an agnostic,why even try to prove something that can't be proven for sure?Are you pissed with Sina?What's your motive?

  199. Only Islamoretards think you're fake.
    Because they can't digest that one of their own is brave enough to call a spade a spade.

  200. I have twice posted a reply saying that the blog called exmuslimblog.com is fake. Both times the comment has been deleted.

    Among other things…. hmmm!

  201. I posted a reply here – which seems to have gone missing.

  202. Divin Punishment
    The divine punishment of Jews is mentioned in three Koranic verses: "… They are those whom Allah has cast aside and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made some as apes and swine…" (5:60);
    If this is true why not Allah transform Billions of its criticizers/non-believers like Ali Sina into apes and swine.

  203. Ali Sina – you are just Amazing…..

  204. I will pretend that I believe you, and that you are real, and your story is real.
    In this case, I do not see that you are having any problem. When you become independent and can stand on your own feet, you are going to decide which faith to follow, or to be an athiest.

    As for your boyfriend……..by the time you are ready for marriage, then you can easily leave him if you and him are not on the same line of belief ( I bet before you reach that stage, a person like you will know ten others and make her pick).

    Why should you fear the hereafter since you don't have faith? You have no problem what so ever,
    you are just a S–H–I–T Stirrer, as they say in England.

    Whoever is playing this game………..aren't you fed up from creating new techniques to spread hatred? Try to create something positive and constructive, instead of destruction.

  205. Why not Allah sent (Book) teaching written to Mohammed.

  206. OK………Mohammad's teachings were transmitted orally and everytime they were changed to fit the situation.

    This will be a credit for Mohammad, because in this case, he was innocent from most of the cruel teachings of the Koran.

    The Koran is like any other "holy" book…..things added and things deleted….it depends to the moods and desires of the king or the ruler in charge at each time.

    Still, Mohammad had a writer who used to document what he said, probably not everything, but certainly he had a writer.

  207. "The truth might piss him off but in time it will set him free. "

    You mean your version! You are decrying the notion that you are "forced" to believe contrary to your wishes – yet you would happily convert others!

    It does sound to me as you want this "boy" to make his own mind up – nor think him capable.

    - – -

    How Muslim of you!

  208. "We can read two words and tell whether the person is a conservative, Leftist, Muslim, apostate, a Muslim pretending to be someone else, or an apostate-in-making. "

    Huh? This is so wrong and on many levels. Really! Is this how quickly you label and prejudice people.

    This is one sickening site of hatred.

  209. "So to end this, I don't like how I'm being called fake. I have to write this way or else you guys would dumb down your advice to me but I wan't the truth"

    Right… and coming to this site – and "truth" from a hate figure. Someone who makes sweeping generalizations…

    " By following a madman, all Muslims have become mad. This madness manifests itself in myriads of ways. It is hard to find an emotionally healthy Muslim. They have low self-esteem, are shy or depressive or narcissist or paranoid and or all of them together. As a matter of fact Muslims suffer from more mental and emotional disorders than any other people."

    And you honestly think that truth looks like this. And you want me to believe that a 15yr old is that cold? Not care about your parents, brothers & sisters and family, friends and etc?

    [Well yes you can be - if you are a psychopath.]

  210. M.A – I get the feeling you live in West – whoever you are. Clues in your language style.

    "summer vacation" – " is able to put himself at our level " – and others.

    Then there is the access to the internet. Your language isn't British or European. The terminology you use is often American. When describing the school for example.

  211. "This imam is 22 years old yet has the wisdom and charisma of a 44 year old."

    Again – this lets you down. A 22 year old? And he was made imam at "20". Not a chance.

    – - –

    "He recruits the teenage boys to follow his warped ideas. He is sick and twisted yet EXTREMELY talented and charismatic, like "prophet" Muhammad."

    Again – a really easy and extremely common scenario. Jeez! This is the oldest story in the book!

  212. How does one cope with fast living amongst muslims and having teenage kids who are fasting and for someone who is also doubting the religion of ISLAM. Would also like to know how the apostates would get buried when they die one day. This question is for the apostates who wants to remain anonymous about their apostacy.

  213. "These doubters think that like them, we grew up listening to Zakir Naik. Well they should try their tricks somewhere else. They are not fooling anyone here."

    huh? You have heard of one "media" name and you will brand that about…. jeez! May I suggest a bit of learning – or is that too much to ask.

    - – -

    You have absolutely no way of knowing if M.A is real or not.

  214. "I guess you haven't read Shabeer's posts at faithfreedom.org. If you had, you would have known how true Dr. Sina's statement is. "

    Pointless comment – I am not a "groupie" on this site that I would know the bg of what you are saying.

  215. "follower of terrorist a will be terrorist, follower of a ignorant will be ignorant, follower of a peaceful person will peaceful by nature. Now we have to decide who is right and who is wrong. We are to judge the things logically, impartially, scientifically. "

    Load of BS! – How does your comment relate to anything?

  216. I guess you haven't read Shabeer's posts at faithfreedom.org. If you had, you would have known how true Dr. Sina's statement is.

  217. "I don't know if anyone can really understand what's going on in my life right now. I want another ex-Muslim to relate to, to be able to support each other through the bad times and struggles through Islam."

    ***********************

    Of course we understand, M.A. Many of us have gone through the same that you are going through now. Many others have friends that have gone through all this.

    But since you are a smart person, you know that you don't always get what you want. You should try but should be full aware that you may not have a personal ex-Muslim friend for a while. You may have to stick with ex-Muslims here until then, and at faithfreedom.org. There is also a British website called Council of ex-Muslims. Check them out.

  218. Is this imam even better than Zakir Naik? Do not worry M.A. We are gonna find him and turn him into a 2 plus 2 equal 0 donkey. His fame is going to come crashing down faster than it is going up. You should concentrate on your studies and having fun.

    See if you can tell this boy about faithfreedom.org and alisina.org. Be careful of course. If you feel that the Imam has already managed to recruit this boy, DO NOT go overboard to save him (thereby putting yourself in danger). We will figure out some way to get to that boy and a lot of other Muslims, when the time is right.

  219. You are right M.A. It is a horrible feeling when you realize what your own family is willing to do to you to maintain control over you. Although I would say the parent-child bond, and also other family bonds are more complicated than this. You should make sure to talk to someone with many years of experience in this field. Someone like Dr. Ali Sina. In other words, you are already in safe hands :)

    Be careful with your family but don't hate them. Dr. Sina already gave you great advice, but if you ever need more counseling, contact him again.

  220. You are perfectly fine M.A. Please do not be disturbed by what MoonShadow or Amin Riaz say. You are confident, as you should be, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just do not let your confidence fly high into arrogance territory. Otherwise you are perfectly fine and your English is awesome.

    These doubters think that like them, we grew up listening to Zakir Naik. Well they should try their tricks somewhere else. They are not fooling anyone here. :)

  221. M.A,
    Do not be concerned that some people call you a fake. It is a trick that they use to cause emotional distress on the person writing. I have read many apostate stories and these accusers are always there. They hope to trick you into making you divulge more information about yourself, so they can catch you. NEVER fall for their tricks.
    Also please do not underestimate the skills of readers of this blog, especially some of us like me who have been communicating with all kinds of people for years. We can read two words and tell whether the person is a conservative, Leftist, Muslim, apostate, a Muslim pretending to be someone else, or an apostate-in-making.
    You ARE real, M.A.! The smart people at FFI do NOT doubt you :)

  222. You are brave, M.A. The fact that you are in the US reduces the danger a lot, but still be careful when talking to the guy. But you need to take utmost care with your family members, even uncles, aunts, cousins, family friends etc. They are the ones who must never come to know until you are independent. Good Luck!

  223. Depends on how you want to look at it, MoonShadow. If you think so then go ahead.

  224. Thank you. I'll make sure to do that. And I do plan on getting the best education. That's very good advice. I know that I don't need to marry the boy, but all I want to do with him is set him free. We are already friends, and I've already talked to him many times. He says things that make him seem like an apostate. I'm not relying on him for freedom but I just want to help him, and I think it might work because he says he doubts things at times. He is not as brainwashed as everyone else. His mindset is like my mindset from three months ago; wavering. But I'd have to be careful about it.

  225. So to end this, I don't like how I'm being called fake. I have to write this way or else you guys would dumb down your advice to me but I wan't the truth. When you doubt my identity, it means my story is doubted, and then ignored. I am struggling SO MUCH and I need my story to be heard! I've been ignored for far too long by the people around me and I need you guys to believe me so I can be helped. Yes, I will get an education and not worry about marriage till much later. But this guy is my friend and it hurts to know that he just might be slipping away from me. I need advice on how to approach him in the safest way. The truth might piss him off but in time it will set him free.

  226. This imam is so charismatic that within 2 years, he became the new leader of my mosque. People old enough to be his parent treat him as if he's the mahdi (messiah). My mosque is also small so he has a firm grip on the people. And his fame is increasing. It is spreading at an alarming rate. And this man, since he was a teenager not so long ago, is able to put himself at our level (the boys my age and a bit older.) The boy I like is so nice and open, but I feel that this imam is destroying him and everyone else. I haven't seen the boy much since it's summer vacation, but once school starts up again, I'm afraid he won't be the person I know anymore.

  227. Also, I wanted to at least be friends with the boy because he's the only (apostate?) that I know. I don't know if anyone can really understand what's going on in my life right now. I want another ex-Muslim to relate to, to be able to support each other through the bad times and struggles through Islam. But my only hope, it seems, is being brainwashed by the imam of our mosque. This imam is 22 years old yet has the wisdom and charisma of a 44 year old. He recruits the teenage boys to follow his warped ideas. He is sick and twisted yet EXTREMELY talented and charismatic, like "prophet" Muhammad. I don't want to drag on so I'll summarize this quickly:

  228. Amin Riaz: The parent-child bond is strongest of all? Really? Would it still be so strong after realizing that your parents are willing to throw their own flesh and blood out of the house just because the child doesn't agree with their religion? Do you know how bad it made me feel to know that my parents could do this to me? I didn't get to choose my parents, so why am I automatically obligated to love them the most? It would make more sense to love someone you could choose. Yes, I love them in the basic sense that they raised me and looked after me. But I still have that nauseating feeling when I remember what they'd do to me if I left their beloved Islam. Also,

  229. It's me again, M.A, the writer of this letter. Wow, did I write so well that you guys would think I'm fake? Because I'm 15 you think that I don't have the capacity to write decently? It's not like I'm 5. I'm in high school and this is just above the level they expect us to write at. This is simply the result of a good education, not a fabrication. It is like how some kids are prodigies in painting. Well then, English is my calibre, and a hobby I enjoy working at. I could write more casually than this, but I chose to write professionally so that I'd be taken seriously. And to MoonShadow: I don't understand how my personality is "shaky." That because I'm sane, it means it wouldn't make sense for me to fear? Islam thrusted me into depression and now that I came out of it, faint scars still remain.

  230. "First, I did not say that I have faith in Mohammad. My objective is to reveal lies".

    If your objective is to reveal lies, you could start by revealing Muhammad's lies.

    "Second, although Mohammad was illiterate, but there are many illiterate men who are much smarter that the educated ones".

    Who??? Illiteracy goes hand in hand with stupidity. In the 21st century no one would listen to illiterate persons.

    "Third, Mohammad recited the Koran, and he had a writer who used to document all what he said".

    Wrong. Muhammad's teachings were not written down during his lifetime. They were transmitted orally and everytime they were changed to fit the situation. Both by Muhammad and by his followers. The first quran was written in 653 under the rule of 2nd Caliph Uthman, to stop the different interpretations. But by then it was already too late and Islam had broken into countless sects, each with their own interpretations.

    "This is the truth, if you care, yet that does not mean that I have faith in him".

    Look it up in history books (even islamic ones) and see for yourself

  231. First, I did not say that I have faith in Mohammad. My objective is to reveal lies.
    Second, although Mohammad was illiterate, but there are many illiterate men who are much smarter that the educated ones.
    Third, Mohammad recited the Koran, and he had a writer who used to document all what he said.

    This is the truth, if you care, yet that does not mean that I have faith in him.

  232. follower of terrorist a will be terrorist, follower of a ignorant will be ignorant, follower of a peaceful person will peaceful by nature. Now we have to decide who is right and who is wrong. We are to judge the things logically, impartially, scientifically.

  233. "You have no faith in M.A"

    Huh? This site is by Ali Sina whose views are as such:

    " By following a madman, all Muslims have become mad. "

    The lie is attributed to him. The "faith" you mention is lacking in him. He has always suffered ego problems.

    What evidence have you got that M.A exists and isn't a fabrication of Ali Sina.

    - – -

    "As to Authenticity, Muhammad didn't even write down his crap teachings, because he couldn't write. "

    Actually – he could.

    "It was written 21 years after the madman's death. "

    Any evidence?

    "No wonder it is so confusing to read "

    In what way?

  234. "You have to realize that the parents control over their children diminishes in time. It reaches to a stage that the balance of powers will be totally reversed and the parents will become dependent on the children. In about ten years, when you have your own career and earn your own living, you and your parents reach equilibrium of powers. By then they can’t boss you around. From there on, every day, you gain more power while they lose. This hierarchy of powers that at this moment seems so oppressive to you will be reversed. Give time a chance. In a decade, none of these problems that today seem so daunting will exist. They will melt gradually, like a mountain of ice under the sun."

    Yeah right! Like this story isn't invented. Not matter what parent-child bond is a strong one. Ali Sina misses all that and this is the advice to give?

    One has brothers, sister and other members of family and there are friends. None of them.

    But the "focus" of concern is on an unrelated boy! Really?

  235. " By following a madman, all Muslims have become mad. This madness manifests itself in myriads of ways. It is hard to find an emotionally healthy Muslim. They have low self-esteem, are shy or depressive or narcissist or paranoid and or all of them together. As a matter of fact Muslims suffer from more mental and emotional disorders than any other people."

    Says it all. Bigotry Hate and Ego – The definition of Ali Sina.

  236. I do agree with you that the promise of 72 virgins is disgusting and a cheap lure…..
    and I do agree that there are talented younsters, yet they are rare. You must have noticed the contrast between the talent and this shaky personality of this "girl" who is living in a nightmare of the hereafter and of 72 virgins who will share with her husband. Is there any sane or talented person with a mentality like this? If she left Islam and has no faith in it, then how can you justify her fear from the Islamic hell? isn't there a lot of contradiction in "her" story.

    As for your #1, I will not bother to answer because it is all assumption and not true.

    This whole story is ludicrous.

  237. @ MoonShadow

    You have no faith in M.A, but you believe in the teachings of an illiterate man who lived 1500 years ago. I don't see your logic. As to Authenticity, Muhammad didn't even write down his crap teachings, because he couldn't write. Who knows if the words of the Quran are even the words of Muhammad??? It was written 21 years after the madman's death. No wonder it is so confusing to read

  238. You have a strong feeling that this story is fabricated is because:-

    1. It's been inculcated in you to not believe any action of a non-muslim. If it's a muslim, even if he's Dawood Ibrahim, you'll believe him. If not, you'll not even believe a Gandhi or an Einstein. Every action or word of a non-muslim is doubtful to you.

    2. You have no idea about the amount of talent human beings can possess. You're talking of a 15 year old not able to write an essay with precision? Take the essay papers of the top 20 of a Xth standard exam. The kids write as good as accomplished writers! This essay is nothing in comparison. Tathagat Tulsi got his Post Graduate Degree at 12 years. Umair Liaquet got into University of Cambridge maths department at 15!

    So only Jihadists get 72 virgins? Allah has to lure people to war by promising P-U-S-S-Y in the afterlife?
    Disgusting.

  239. What if her husband watches jihad videos and becomes a terrorist sometime after the marriage? =/

    We never know what's in store for husband's future, do we?

  240. I am sure you will find many great advice here. i think u will get good advice from an ex muslim perspective here http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board
    u will find many ex muslims here.

  241. Hi M.A.

    Welcome to the forum. Please search Ayan Hirshi Ali and watch a few of her videos. This is a woman you want to emulate. She is educated and successful. She married only recently and now she has a baby. She was forced married when she was very young and she escaped from that. Since you are smart, you have to go after education. Rely only on yourself for your freedom, not on a man.

  242. "She" did not write to you, but the one who personified her did. This reply made me more certain that either Sina or one of his gang wrote this trashy story.

    I am agnostic, still I wish a happy Ramadan for all Muslims even the ones without
    faith.

  243. You are cynical…….aren't you?

  244. Why do I have this strong feeling that this story is fabricated and what so called M.A either doesn't exist or is a liar….? A 15 years old cannot write an "essay" with this accuracy or almost accuracy.

    But let us assume that there is actually a girl whose name is M.A and she is 15 years old. To ease your mind, there will be no 72 virgins to share your husband with you, unless if he is a Jihadist and killed in a holly war. This problem is solved for you unless if you plan to marry a Jihadist.

    Ali Sina, don't under estimate others, because only a fool does that. Are you getting crazy, writing problems to yourself and then giving advice for problems you created? However, be pleased that there are lots of idiots and lots of trash around who can consume this junk.

  245. oh what the heck..

    "you must have read a wrong version, islam is all about equality"
    "i am certain you have been quoted out of the context, this is the right one *alla alla hilla hilla bla bla %$#*7.. (6.88)*, it says men are women are equal in heaven, that virgin thingie has been rectified or ratified by another verse here" (poor TipTop the retard, he would not get his blond, blue eyed 16 years old)
    But why did the verse mentioning men getting virgins come in the first place????.
    -"Oh you are so full of hate"
    -"ISLAMOPHOBE, and see for you guys we have the terrorists, we muslims feel so isolated -*sniff* see that is why we need sharia law"

    What is the average age of virgins in heaven anyway? 9 years?, will they have a 40 years old virgin women for an old man who never had sex and blew himself up to kill others?? what if he can't get "it" up anymore, will he have kafir made viagra in heaven???

    Quoting the commedian Billy Connolly here "72 virgins, what a (fing) nightmare, give me 3 fire breathing whores instead.

  246. Muslimahs are dumb ('prophet' Mo said that). They do not realize that hijab is just a start. As Islamists become more and more powerful, they will start going after the rest of female bodies (The one-step-at-a-time strategy).

  247. M.A., Mr. Sina is right,you're too young to think of marriage.Sure be friends with the guy,and when you're able to support yourself – take the decision of whether to marry him.But more important right now is to decide who do you want to be in this world.
    Choose one thing which you love to do the most.Set your goals based on it and give it your everything,be it writing,acting,wrestling ( :) ) whatever it is.Even talking!There are great career choices for people who love to talk-News Reporters,Radio Jockeys even politicians!Once you decide what's your goal and set your sights,no barrier can stop you.
    It's also important to make right friends.Make friends with good people,read and share knowledge with them.

    Being honest and hard-working is more important than praying five times of a day.
    Knowing what is right for you is more important than covering your head.
    A person's religion doesn't decide whether he is good or bad and if he's going to Jannah (if that exists).His actions and their effects on others' lives decide his goodness or badness.
    A woman should do what she's good at, not what is ordained by the males of her family or what's written in some 'holy' book. If Serena Williams had decided to just cook and raise children, we'd never have known that she's such a talented tennis player – among the best ever to have held a racket.

    You're in US and no one can threaten you like they could if you were in Saudi Arabia,Iran or Pakistan.
    Since you're smart enough to understand that Islam is just a fairy tale, with very serious ramifications on the psyche and activities of its followers, you should speak up against it. Not today, since you're very young. Islam is another evil ideology like Fascism, and it can't be wiped out peacefully from the face of the earth except by its own.You being raised in a Muslim family are in the best position to explain to those of your near and dear the reasons why their belief is a false one and that their lives can't be governed by a book written 1500 years ago.

    All the best.

  248. 1.Allah probably doesn't exist.
    2.He is the only father who, on the most insignificant crime of his son not believing in him, burns his skin and then recreates it so he can be burnt again.Quran 4:56
    If such a father existed in humans, he'd be sent to the jail or a loony home.Allah, if he exists, is a Lunatic and deserves similar treatment.
    3.He promotes incest via the Adam and Eve theory.
    4.His (so called) last Prophet promotes paedophilia.

    Such a God is great? If he were visible, people would spit on him.

  249. I have to ask you as you are a muslim girl growing up in US. Hope you will answer me. I see a lot of girls and women, who wear hijab, but wear the tightest dress possible. They are so tight that you can virtually see what they are wearing inside.

    IF exposing hairs will make the boys like bulls, came out of it's shack, after one month of confinement. (a great example is the great retard TipTop), then will not wearing tights and give the boys a good eyefull of your female anatomy, also make boys sexually charged. I just do not get it.

    So why women who happen to be pious muslims, wear hijab in public and also wear very tight clothes.

  250. Hi Confused, our dear Ali Sina don't even bother or mind about how I address him/her, so why are you so agitated and confused over such small matter? It's between Ms Ali Sina and me and not you, right? Why are you getting so agitated and confused when I simply stated the truth that Dr Albert Einstein was merely an imperfect human being like you whereas everybody here knew that only my beloved Lord Jesus Christ is perfect in all His ways and no sin is found in Him at all. Are you alright because you sound like a sick parrot? ;)

  251. Allah is greatest looser. Allah made the universe to get itself worshiped. But There are more than 80% population of non-believers in Quranic Allah.

  252. @Tip Top
    Allah is greatest looser. Allah made the universe to get itself worshiped. But There are more than 80% population of non-believers in Quranic Allah.

  253. dearest M.A, look you should not be spending much time on this site, first of all, you may get caught and your family can make your life not so nice for being here.

    2nd, dealing with people like Tiptop will make you angry and frustated and will only result in losing your focus, and you will not be able to do what you are set out to do. You know what to do in terms of how to plan ahead in your life, come back in 10 years time when you are earning and calling your own shots. We will all be here. Lets us deal with the people like him meanwhile, his agenda is not to let you succeed. He wins if you fail. Then he can say, well come back to my god or whatever. when you said to him to "think a bit more clearly" – you hit the nail on the head. He will not think clearly and he only distract you with his own logic and you will only waste your valuable time.

  254. I love my simple mind. Do you want your arguments should be trashed? lol

    Option 1 includes more anthropological, social aspects.Sorry you didn't opt for !

    Anyway I won't have time for blogs in Ramadan.

    Laterz

  255. This is good. Now everyone here can see how easy it is to turn a Muslim silent once you overwhelm them with arguments too large for their simple minds.

    For my first day of Ramadan, I think I'll eat a ham sandwich.

  256. You decided , skipped option 1 and 2.
    Laterz

  257. Yes, you may have addressed Muslims, but this is an anti-Islamic website, so would it really be reasonable to wish a happy Ramadan on a site where most of us are against Islam? It is like saying Merry Christmas in Saudi Arabia. You already know this yet you spread the same redundant messages in a place where we don't need it. That is practically spamming.
    "Allah doesn't want you to starve, he wants more from you." That is so true! Allah is the most powerful and says in the Quran that whatever we do doesn't affect his power. That's why he seems to have a fit because I refuse to starve myself for over 10 hours. What a toddler this god seems to be. My eight year old sister seems more merciful than this sadist.
    So I suggest that YOU go wash your face and think a bit more clearly. Yes, you are a peace loving Muslim, that's why you're willing to call a 15 year old "a stupid".

  258. looser !

  259. Are all soul not equal? Soul in man body gets 72 virgin girls in heaven but soul in woman body does not get 72 virgin boy in heaven. Hey Factious Allah, why this partiality.

  260. M.A. another victim of Islam. I think sometime there is no God. This madman (Mohammed) ruined the life of billions of people. Islam is fear, fear, fear.

  261. get lost man!!!!!!! Can't solve any problem in your own god islamic damnworld, coming out here make everybody's life a hell.

    Mr Sina, you should block this retard.

    Because Mr Sina wants everybody on this forum to behave in a civilised manner, you are spared from a few decisive adjectives.

    Rubbish

  262. Even though I am one of most replied person on blogs, I don't find any reason you should reply me. I have addressed Muslims and you are an atheist !

    First of all wash your face with chilled water and scold everyone who called you philosopher, you are a stupid.

    Allah don't want you to starve but Allah want more of you. Do you want detailed explanation? Or hints ? Or you will find your own ? You decide !

  263. Agracean why do you adress Dr Alisina as a she? Your Evangelical thoughts are very sickening. You sound like a stucked broken record by repeating yourself.

  264. No thanks, I don't think a loving god, if he exists, would want you to starve yourself.

  265. Hi M.A. You have nice sense of humor. That helps. I hope you will be fine for some time acting. If you want to escape your home, I think Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are running a safe home for girls like you. Google can give you the details. Best of luck.

  266. Happy Ramadan 2 All Muslims

    Quran 2:183

    "O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint"

    Laterz anti-Islamics

    Allah Hafiz

  267. Dear M.A., in the first place, you're really privileged to get to know our dear Ms Ali Sina here at such a young age and to be able to browse his site for so much precious info. Do treasure it, my dear and pose all your questions about your religion to this wonderful counsellor. I believe that she will be able to help you out of this horrible sinkhole. I wish that I could know our dear Ms Ali Sina at this young age, but I'm glad that I'm still alive and kicking all because of Jesus Christ's love for me. He inspire me to be a better human being each day. It's good to study Science and know more about Science but please do remember that there are facts and truth that are beyond the scope of Science. Only Jesus Christ has the perfect solution and answer to all mysteries surrounding this awesome universe because He is the first human being ever lived on this planet earth who dare to claim that He is God and that He is a perfect human being whereas no scientist in this world, not even Dr Albert Einstein, dare to make such a claim! So, in conclusion, I'll like to encourage you to seek Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus loves you very much. :)

  268. My only way to cope with living in a Muslim household is to pretend that I'm in a movie.

    A good actor is able to give you the impression that they are really in a cetain situation. The actor pretends that what they are going through is real, but in the back of their minds, they know that it's all just an act. If Nia Long and Evan Ross non-Muslims, were able to give the impression that they were Muslims in the movie "Mooz-lum", then my method of getting through with this is to pretend that there are cameras situated around my home, with the movie crew bustling about backstage, and the director giving me cues.
    For example, an actor playing the part of a person struggling through poverty knows that they may have to suffer for a little while in order for their portrayal to seem all the more realistic. But when the movie is over, they return to their normal lives. I will simply apply this idea to my mindset which will hopefully make things a lot easier.
    Alright, my break is over now, the director is calling me back to the set. This will be a long movie! ;)

  269. Another thing: I love acting. I love the idea of being on stage and being a part of a play. But ever since puberty and donning the hijab, I was not allowed to act anymore because I was getting older. Didn't want to get the boys excited over my hair, now do we? (I shake my head at the unjustice and ignorance of this) The more I think about it, the more I realize how trapped I was. I remember crying last school year because I couldn't be a part of the Hairspray Musical my school was putting on. I could not sing, dance, and wear pretty costumes because I had to think about how if I sing, the men will hear my feminine voice, and dance because they'll watch my body sway. Acting was out of the question because I had to consider the "hungry eyes of preying men." Disgusting, isn't it?

  270. Hey it's me, the writer of this letter. I want to thank everyone for helping me out; I feel like this is the only place where I can get my voice heard. I've read all your comments and I really like the advice of getting a good education. I think I'll just remain friends with the guy.
    I feel very appreciated here because nobody listens to me. Honestly, it's very difficult for me to get you to fully understand the extent of my problem. I would discuss many issues and ideas that I get with my family, but they seem to be annoyed by it. They'd rather have me be like everyone else. But I cannot help the way I speak and think. I have so many ideas I'd like to share, and it'd be a pleasure to publish some articles on this site. I have so many theories on many subjects, especially the fault of Islam.
    Luckily I live in the United States, as it will be easier to accomplish my goals. I feel so alive since leaving this cult. Now I am free to expand my knowledge beyond the limited boundaries of Muhammad's mind. I always loved science, and now I am free to widen my views of science after dropping Islam. Thank you to everyone, without you I may have lost the courage to do so.

  271. Also I would like to make another point, try to keep your thinking to yourself, many people tried to leave islam and then gone back to it even more rigidly than before, just like a failed quit smoking attempt. This boy may be confused and one day "he maybe see the light" as muslims say all the time, he will become a strong believer or he may leave this totally, in either way, it is his decision. However, his knowledge of her left islam totally maybe counter productive later, or even now! He can be a threat to this girl's life.

    I would say please try to keep the thoughts to yourself. it is hard for a 15 years old, a best solution is type what you are thinking about islam and why you want to leave it in word docu and then delete it. or may write in a piece of paper and burnt it. or go for a walk and mutter your thinking on the thin air when nobody listening. But please do not share with what you are thinking.

  272. wow, if this is a "fast" typing for a 15 years old, then I must say, that there is a great writer and philosopher in making who could do a hell good without getting married in coming 10 -15 years and make a solid contribution to us, the mankind.

    Yes this little girl is massivly talented. Get the idea of getting married to muslim boy at this age and just study more. I know from my past musim girlfriend that. There is only one way you can get out is to get very good score and get admission to great insitutions where studying is a priviledge! Your family will have to let you go becaue it is in their pride too. Then once you get to a postiion when you can call your own shot, Make announcement to what you are upto, be a muslim, be a agnostic, be a total anti-muslim. Basically, you can make your own decision and people will follow you, if you have a great tag of Harvard, or Oxford or Princeton.

    I have seen this darling, it happened with me. All I had to do is to help my ex financially. Her writing also reminds me of my ex too, she was so talented

  273. 15 years old and thinking about marriage… You worry way too much!!! Relax, get an education and the world is at your feet. Mr. Sina has given you some good advice. Go with it

    Lastly, congrats on leaving Muhammadanism. This is a great achievement.

  274. Welcome to freedom, welcome to humanity!! what you wrote is exactly my story, i was labelled of blashphemy in school at the age 12 :) was too afraid to declare my freedom afterwards. Now am 29 and absolutely normal, love people around me independent of creed. (being a pakistani, apostasy declration is the worst thing one can do)

    Sina will help you, he is a wise man.

    My advise: No need to publicise your ideas openly, there are millions who are not bothered bout what their default religion says, especially born muslims. Enjoy you life guilt free, just never hurt anyone physically or emotionally.

  275. M.A., Although not quite the same situation, I have been where you been.

    These two books will help you with your depression. http://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Change
    http://www.amazon.com/New-Earth-Awakening-Purpose

    Also watch the movie when you get a chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsS3cXGs2GQ

    Sometimes things have to get so bad that you have to hit rock bottom. Then, amidst the most horrible time in your life, a time when you feel you have nothing left… that's when you have a moment of clarity. You're on the verge of finding it. Once you find it, you can't go back. Your perception permanently changes and you reach a higher level of awareness.

    Listen to Ali Sina. Get your education and look into the links I sent you. That will set you on the path. One day you'll look back (and that day is sooner than you think) on this time in your life and you'll feel like it was a completely different person back then.

    This is just the start. Everything's going to be ok. Good luck

  276. May you be blessed by this song :
    http://youtu.be/Qbgh5qmc8xs

    Cheers
    Grace :)

  277. Dear M.A., Ms Ali Sina is absolutely right. Do heed her advice to really study hard and once you attained academic excellence. It'll help you in many ways in the later part of your earthly life. You're only 15 yrs old and too young to really understand what's going on and happening in this troublesome world. But besides studying hard for your studies,try to go to the library and research for the truth about Jesus Christ and His works while he was walking on earth. I believe that his excellent attitude and excellent spirit will change your mindset and life forever. God bless. Cheers. :)

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