Holland C. Tylor: Lies about Moderate Islam

Holland C. Tylor:  Lies about Moderate Islam

Mr. Holland C. Tylor is a convert to Islam who promotes moderation. He tells Muslims that Muhammad was rahmatun lil alameen (the mercy of God in both worlds) and that Muslims, instead of enlisting themselves in the Army of Jihad they should enlist themselves in the “Army of Love.”

I challenged Mr. Tylor arguing that Islam is evil by its very nature and Muhammad was a terrorist cult leader.  This is the truth and we can’t hide with lies.  I read his book, which I found filled with misinformation and deception and challenged him to defend his arguments.  I sent him two questions. He promised to answer them, but never did. I also sent him my book, which he did not read. So I decided to publish my two questions to him. He is most welcome to answer them at his own convenience (I am not holding my breath).  The first question is here and the following is my second question to him.

 

Question 2

Dear Holland,

In the book that you compiled, the late Indonesian President Wahid, whom you extol as an example of a moderate Muslim,  makes several references to “tranquil souls” (al-nafs al-muthmainnah), people who are peaceful by their nature, in contrast to “discontented souls (al-nafs al-lawwâmah) who give rise to social upheavals and strife, and represent the embodiment of selfish lust.”

What I understand from his writings is that P. Wahid believed that peaceful people are better than those who fight and wage war. However, it appears that Muhammad thought differently.

There are countless verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to fight and to cast terror in the hearts of non-believers. For example: “And prepare against them what force you can…to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah” (Q. 8:60).

Muhammad encouraged his followers to engage in jihad with their bodies and their wealth, i.e. fight and finance his raids. He said, “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allâh with their goods and their persons. Allâh has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) has Allâh promised good, but those who strive and fight has He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. (Q. 4:95)

There is no doubt that this verse is talking about warfare.  Here Muhammad is chastising those who did not participate in the battle of Tabuk, i.e. the tranquil souls.  It was a hot summer and a few Muslims were reluctant to leave their homes. They preferred the shade of the vine trees in the gardens that they had stolen from the Jews than to go to Syria in the heat of the summer to fight.  Despite this verse, they brought excuses and did not go. Among them was Hasaan ibn Thabit, the poet.

When Muhammad returned, he ordered his followers not to talk with the deserters. No one spoke to them and their wives left them. After forty days of remaining completely ignored by all the inhabitants of Medina, as if they did not exist or were invisible, Hasaan went to Muhammad and profusely apologized. Muhammad then revealed another verse allowing Muslims to talk to him.  Medina had become a cultic compound where Muhammad ruled supreme.

Do you see how this story has been twisted?  Muhammad was telling people not to give in to their temptation, not to be lazy and not to forsake their duty of fighting preferring their comfort. It is in this context that we must understand the battle against one’s nafs, not in the context that it is presented today by people like P. Wahid.

P. Wahid, said, “Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, told his companions following their triumph in the battle of Badr: “Raja‘nâ min jihâd al-ashghar ilâ jihâd al-akbar” (“We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater”).”  This greater jihad is allegedly the struggle against nafs. P. Wahid’s knowledge of Islam was so little that he said the injunction about the greater jihad was made after the battle of Badr. The story is a fabrication, but it is said that Muhammad made it after Tabuk not after Badr.

There are six major compilations of hadith that are considered trustworthy. They are Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan ibn Majah, Sunan at-Tirmidhi, Sunan an-Nasai.  Can you please tell us in which one of these compilations this hadith is reported?  Let me save your time. It’s in none of them.

The fourteenth-century Hanbali scholar Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziya disputed the authenticity of this hadith and called it a “fabrication”: [see Douglas E. Streusand, "What Does Jihad Mean?" Middle East Quarterly 4, no. 3 (1997).]

Now in the spirit of compromise let us assume that greater Jihad means fighting against one’s nafs as you claim.  Muhammad also advocated the lesser jihad, which means fighting against unbelievers and shedding their blood.  The greater Jihad is a lie. Even if it were true, it is a red herring.  Every criminal can say good things. I can find a dozen of good sentences in Mein Kampf.  Shall we then ignore all the evil thoughts of Hitler?

I don’t want you to tell me about the greater jihad, which is a fabrication. Let us pretend that it is true.  I want you to explain why a messenger of God that according to you is rahmatan lil-‘âlamîn (a blessing to both worlds) would advocate violence and terror as a means of propagating his religion? How can you condemn the Muslims who follow his teachings of qital (fighting) and berate them as extremist and radical when all they do is being loyal followers of their prophet, something P. Wahid and you are not?

Peaceful and discontent souls exist among all the people. However, Muslims become discontent, (al-naf al-lawwâmah) when they follow the teachings of Muhammad.  Few religions have such a negative influence on their followers. A good Christian or a good Hindu is often a good person. A good Muslim must necessarily be a terrorist as the verse 4:95, quoted above requires from them.

There are many hadiths that are quoted widely by Muslims that make one believe Islam preaches peace and tolerance. However, Shaykh Suhayb Hasan Hafidhullaah says, they are doubtful and fabrications. http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/sunnah/0008.htm

“For example,” writes Hafidhullah, “here are some very commonly-quoted ahadith, which actually vary tremendously in their degree of authenticity from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace):

  •          The hadith about the Ninety-Name Names of Allah.
  •          Allah says, “I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known, so I created a creation (mankind), then made Myself known to them, and they recognised Me.”
  •          When Allah completed creation, He wrote in a Book (which is) with Him, above His Throne, “Verily, My Mercy will prevail over My Wrath.”
  •          Allah says, “Neither My heaven nor My earth can contain Me, but the heart of My believing slave can contain Me.”
  •          “He who knows himself, knows his Lord.”
  •          “Love of one’s homeland is part of Faith.”
  •          “I have left among you that which if you abide by, you will never go astray: the Book of Allah, and my Family, the Members of my House.”
  •          “I am the City of Knowledge, and ‘Ali is its Gate.”
  •          “The differing amongst my Ummah is a mercy.”
  •          Prophecies about the coming of the Mahdi (the guided one), Dajjal (the False Christ, the Anti-Christ) and the return of Jesus Christ son of Mary.
  •          “Paradise is under the feet of mothers.”
  •          “Seeking knowledge is a duty upon every Muslim.”
  •          “Seek knowledge, even if you have to go to China.”
  •          “The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr.”
  •          “We have returned from the lesser Jihad to the greater Jihad (i.e. the struggle against the evil of one’s soul).”

These hadiths are generally fabricated by Persians.  Many of them were lies concocted by Jalalidin Rumi, in his Mathnavi.  Rumi was a poet. His stories should not be taken as factual.  You see, we Persians could not stomach the teachings of Muhammad.  Before we lost everything to Islam and became barbarians like our invaders, we were a cultured and civilized people. Arabs of Hijaz had no problem with what Muhammad taught. They had some chivalry which they also lost.  But they had no culture and civilization. They were bereft of morality.  they were probably a bit better than how they are today. It was easier for them to gobble Islam’s asininity, hook, line and sinker.  Islam, as taught by Muhammad, could have only succeeded among those primitive people.  For them, the teachings of Islam were okay. They shared the same values.  Persians did not find Islam palatable. Rumi took upon himself to sugar coat Islam for us so we could swallow it. He fabricated fables and the mullahs invented hadiths that made Islam look good  In Islam lying is permissible if the intention is to help Islam.  Some Persians became so carried away with their self-deception that they deified Ali ibn Abu Talib. Ali was a savage. His brutality is only second to that Muhammad.

Please show me the source of the above hadiths without digging into the Shiite sources. You can’t because they are all lies.  Shiism is a lie within another lie.

There is a story that goes around the Internet and Muslims quote gleefully. It says that Muhammad used to pass in front of the house of a Jew who would regularly throw garbage at him. For a few days Muhammad did not see the man. He became concerned and upon enquiring he was told that the Jew had become ill.  Thereupon the prophet paid him a cordial visit and wished him well.

Anyone who has read the history of Islam can see this story is impossible. There were no Jews in Mecca and in Medina, Muhammad had no business to go to the Jewish quarters. He lived in the mosque of Quba and the Jews lived in their fortresses outside Medina. They were terrified of him.

Ibn Ishaq reports:

“The prophet said, kill any Jew that falls into your power” Thereupon Muhayyisa leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time, though he was his elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him (Ibn Sunayna), Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying: “You enemy of Allah, did you kill him when so much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?” Muhayyisa answered: “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you, I would have cut your head off.” The other replied: “By Allah, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me, would you have killed me?” He said: “Yes, by Allah, had he ordered me to cut off your head, I would have done so.” He exclaimed: “By Allah, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!” and he became a Muslim. [Sira p. 369]

Muhammad ordered the assassination of Abu Afak, a 120 year old poet, Asma bint Marwan, a mother of five children, Ka’b ibn Ashraf, a young and handsome leader of the Bani Nadir, and several others only because they had composed poetries criticizing his violence.  So how could any Jew throw garbage at him?  And had this happened, was Muhammad a kind of person to forgive that insult? It is sad that Muslims don’t read their own books.  If they did they would not remain Muslim.

When Muhammad was in Mecca, Oqba, a Meccan throw garbage at him when he was praying. Muhammad remembered it and years later in the battle of Badr, when Oqba was captured ordered Ali to behead him. Qqba, in the bitterness of his soul cried, “Who will take care of my children?” Muhammad replied, “Hellfire” and with that Ali hewed the head of the wretched man. Muhammad raised his hand and praised God for satisfying his heart.

The story of a Jew throwing garbage at Muhammad is story is not false. It is only plagiarized.  The origin of this story is in Baha’i books and it is attributed to Abdul Baha, the center of the covenant of the Baha’i Faith.  It is written that when Abdul Baha and his father Baha’u’llah were exiled to Akka, which now is part of Israel, an Arab woman (Muslima) used to throw garbage at him any time he passed in front of his home. When for a few days this didn’t happen, Abdul Baha enquired and he was told she was sick. Then Abdul Baha visited her and showed her kindness.   Do you see how Muslims unabashedly fabricate and plagiarize stories to make their prophet look good?  They have no shame.  They malign Baha’ullah and Abdul Baha and kill the Bahais and yet they steal their stories and attribute them to their own criminal prophet. This story fits all other stories said about Abdul Baha, but it does not fit the character of Muhammad.

There is nothing good in the life of Muhammad. Nothing! I dare you to show me one good deed by this man which is not stolen or plagiarized. Don’t quote me his words. Words are dime a dozen. Tell me about his deeds.  A superior man, is one whose deeds are as elevated as his words One who has lofty words and lives a lowly life is a despicable man.

Another tale you hear often parroted by every Muslim is that the Quran says, whoever, kills one person is like killing all mankind. This is not part of the teachings of Muhammad. It goes against all the teachings of qital prescribed repeatedly in the Quran. This verse is part of a story that Muhammad narrates from Talmud and it refers to Abel and Qain.  This story is not even in the Bible, but our illiterate prophet did not know it and attributed it to Allah.

Muslims plagiarize stories from other religious traditions unabashedly to make their religion look good. Any lie is permissible, as long as it helps Islam.  Muhammad was far from being a good person. He was the embodiment of that nafs al-lawwâmah that P. Wahid was talking about.  He was a sociopath. He was perhaps the worse person who ever defiled the earth. It is funny that Muslims should look up to this pervert criminal for their enlightenment.  No wonder the deplorable state in which they live.

You go around presenting Muhammad as Rahmatun lil alameem, (the mercy of God in all the worlds). What is your evidence for this outlandish claim? Does truth matter or is it bullshit? Muhammad was more evil than Hitler. For how long shall we hide our heads in the sand or maybe in our rear orifice and pretend we don’t see? You want to promote moderation and claim Islam is peace and mercy. Where is the evidence of these claims? Do you expect Muslims to ignore the Quran and believe in these patent lies just because they sound better?

An article titled, “Jihad: The Forgotten Obligation” that can be found with a Google search on several Islamic sites writes:

Provision, Under the Shade of the Spear: Narrated Ibn Umar (ra) that the Prophet (saw) said, “My livelihood is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated.” (Bukhari, p.408, vol.1) The virtue of the spear has been mentioned in this hadith and we have been informed that the livelihood and provision of the Prophet (saw) lies in the spear (jihaad). This is why the muhaditheen have stated that the best earning is that of war booty and it is clearly proven by this hadith that booty has been made permissible for this Ummah. Note: the term ”humiliation for the kuffar” in the hadith, means paying jizya (a small tax levied for the non-Muslim citizens – dhimmis – of the Islamic state). (Fath ul Bari, p.116, vol.2)

This is the true Islam not the deception promulgated by you and president Wahid. I don’t question President Wahid’s sincerity. I question his understanding of Islam. As for you dear Holland, you know the truth now. Only truth can set the word free. You can’t change a violent cult, founded by a mad narcissist and expanded with terror, to a religion of peace and love with sheer lies. Even if you could, the question is why? Why keep a cult founded by the worst man that ever disgraced this planet alive and pay tribute to his filthy name?

Don’t let two major grants blind you. No matter how big the temptation, they are not worth it. Don’t become an instrument of deception. Don’t promote evil. Islam is poison, no matter how much you sugarcoat it. History will not show mercy on snake oil salesmen like you.  Deceivers will be humiliated and shamed.  Maybe you don’t give a damn.  The two major grants have blinded you.  Is that all that matter Holland? Is that all you want?  Money, money, money. Must be funny, in the richman’s world.

Don’t sell your soul for money Holland.  Lives  are lost; innocent blood is shed and over a billion beguiled people live in misery and pain and all you care for is getting your two major grants? Forget those grants. They are not worth the pain and misery of so many people. They are blood money. Stand on the side of the truth. Denounce Islam. This doctrine is full of hate, violence and terror. You can’t change it with a few lies and a few million dollars.  Truth and only truth will set mankind free.

 

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This article has 680 comments

  1. Mao Zedong similarly did bad things. After he died, the Chinese were tired from his campaigns, and the Communist government knew that his policies were terrible and had caused chaos, but they also understood that completely dissing Mao would end their claim to legitimacy for the Chinese government.

    So they did a half measure, saying Mao was a great man who made "mistakes" and forced kids in school to learn that he was "70% right 30% wrong"

  2. well, he shouldn't feel too bad about it. after all, 1.5 billion people have suffered the same fate.

  3. it is pathetic that a person like c holland taylor can be taken in by the greatest con-man of all times…mhd.

  4. I dont have 2 read the rest of article as soon as i read holland man CONVERTED 2 PISSSSSLAM!
    This episode hapens all around the world..first was India..now i around the europe is your turn in USA!!Nazistsmuhamadans used some of our powers/u undrestan this coment when is your turn!Pisslam is the sect of witches their pedophilmuhaMAD was a witch so is his followers..
    MY NAME IS Mina Zadmehr who alot of you will even meet me/Airwolf in US Army Storm/annie/luiez/Aryan/Mandana/K. Jessie/STEVEN/ In future..get this coment on your mind then you undrestand what hapens..after X-Mass the turn will come 2 USA/As well..so many nazistsmuzlimz who are EVIL and do witch/stuff as their pedophil momo/This GUY IS DEAD/Is the witchesmuzlimz who took his place..then as soon as
    they do..they say they find pisslam as solution///
    Mickael Jacksson/pisslam yousef/Anita the scientict/woman…all of them are witchesmuzlimz…
    After 09.TH Januari 2013 you will get another intervjue with this guy..who will say how peaced of he
    is of muhaMADANS WHO KILLED HIM AND WE TOOK HIM BACK..2013 IS THE JUDGEMENT YEAR
    OF THOES PEDOPHILWORSHIPERSMUHAMADANS///LUCKY NUMBER FOR US BAD NUMBER 4
    THEM.. http://www.youtube.com/user/IMPEDOPHILMUHAMADLOL?…

  5. @Truth Seeker. So what you are saying is that Ali Sina has wasted all his years setting up this site and FFI site and the self published book and his so called movie project, because people don't understand much by listening and reading?

    I didn't say it, you did.

    Like I said before, you world has just crumbled. Sam Bacile has beaten you guys to the punch.

    You can change your goal posts, dress up your defeat, hide the fact you have nothing left in your arsenal and keep harping on about this movie of Ali Sina, when it is already out there and nothing which you guys thought was going to happen has happened.

    I actually could have saved you the trouble and embarrassment and could have told you for free, nothing will happen, which to be fair I have said all along. Your dreams of Islam being removed, weakened or wiped out are only dreams and will never happen in anyone's lifetimes, and we will be the power to be and chosen ones until the end of times.

    Get over it you accursed ignorant losers. Get over it and wake up to reality.

    What are you guys going to do now? Even the potential investors Ali Sina was poaching for the movie will pull out. It's over. You're done.

  6. @Ali
    ___________Haven't you heard about the movie that Ali Sina so desperately wanted to make in order to finish off Islam has already been made by Sam Bacile_______
    Brother, people do not understand much by listening & reading .As science student understands the theory by doing practicals. This movie will increase the Islam followers all over the world. People do not know Muhammed very well. I am waiting the movie and my favorite scenes in movie will be I guess :
    1. 55 years old prophet cuddling up with his 9 years old wife Aisa.
    2. How nice will be scene in which 55 years old prophet is standing with his 6 years old wife.
    2. Prophet marry with his daughter in law.
    3. How prophet convinces the ladies to have marry with him after killing their father and husband on the same night.
    4. How prophet do sex with his 13-20 wives in the same night.

    I think through this movie people will learn when to marry, when to do sex with wife. I think right age of marry for man 60 year and girl should be 6 year old. As prophet exemplified before us. I am also planing such marry. Now I am 52 years old and want to do sex with 8 years old girl. I will show through this movie to people that i am not doing anything wrong. Prophet is my idol.

  7. @Truth. Yes he was the greatest messenger of peace, non violence and brotherhood.

    Anything else you'd like clarification on in case you don't understand?

    Your world has just come crashing down overnight. Haven't you heard about the movie that Ali Sina so desperately wanted to make in order to finish off Islam has already been made by Sam Bacile. And the irony is…………………Islam is still here and growing.

    You guys and Guru Ali Sina have nothing more left to say or in your arsenal against Islam.

    Game over dude, game over!

  8. @zeeshan umar
    Do you like to say prophet was the greatest messenger of peace, non-violence, brotherhood? He exemplified through his character before the people how to live. We can learn from him when to marry, when to do sex, how to behave with others, how to keep child wives, How to get revelations from Allah.

  9. dear dnt talk about islam when u dnt understand it. u said that Muhammad peace be upon him encourage his followers to engage in jihad do u knw what is the meaning of jihad???? m sure u dnt knw leave it during the whole life of prophet (PBUH) can u tell me that he encourage his sahaba to attack non muslims??? they fought for their defence and i think u will do the same if i attack u and try to kill u isnt it???? at last prophet (PBUH) attack makkah but no one was killed although they all were the enemy of Islam teases them when muslims were in minority but prophet (PBUH) let them go this is why he is Rahmatul lil alameen. Islam says MURDER OF ONE PERSON IS JST LIKE TO KILL WHOLE HUMANITY.

  10. Thanx, Mr Ali Sina, by exposing the truth about the filthy pig Muhammad.

  11. most of peoples have wrong idéa about islam my friend .. islam against Terrorist .. and you know who did 9/11 §
    is not muslim .is ZION (illuminati) the government of america they did a Great Plan for Distortion of Islam..
    and you know what Significant proportion of who died in 9/11 muslims .. and america didn't want to dentify that .. so what the excuse. is Muslim terrorists ..
    so Tel me who destroy Hiruchima And resulted in the death of thousands and thousands ..muslims ?
    who kill Millons of millions of Indians — muslims ?
    who Colonized iraq and kil thousand of muslims annocent childrens womens olds –muslims ?
    who want to Colonized pakistan afghanistan and acording that they kil annocent peoples there thousands of annocents :/ –muslims ?
    who help ISRAEL to kil annecent peoles in palestine and colonized palestine Without the right –muslims ?
    Non is not muslims is AMERICA (Zion) so with your opinion terroristis mulims or america gouvernemet … :/

  12. " Yes I was in Pakistan. I studied there for two years in the Islamiah college of Peshawar and took my FSc there. My father came to see me. I have been in many countries. I never disliked a country more than Pakistan. It was a beautiful land but the people were anything but. They were very Muslim and as such very hypocrite and untrustworthy. They were filthy both physically and mentally. Now Pakistan is worse because it is more Islamic. "

    I doubt it . . . given how your dates, timings and story keeps changing. I mean why would you go from Persia to Pakistan to study? Also you language skills? How much Urdu did you pick up.

    - – -

    "Don't make a mistake. It is not about race. It is all about the religion. The more religious minded Muslims become the more barbaric and evil they become. "

    You repeat this kind of rhetoric often . . . then only people lapping it up are your fellow hate mongers.

    One can swap this kind of BS and find it among ANY extremist site.

  13. Good going Ali Sina….. I mean Jaco.

    How long does it take you to come up with these personalities and stories? At least employ a script writer who can try and dress it up as someone real.

    My name is Bob by the way, and I hail from Mecca and am a member of the House of Saud following Christianity.

    B)

  14. Yes I was in Pakistan. My father came to see me. I have been in many countries. I never disliked a country more than Pakistan. It was a beautiful land but the people were anything but. They were very Muslim and as such very hypocrite and untrustworthy. They were filthy both physically and mentally. Now Pakistan is worse because it is more Islamic.

    I was in Saudi Arabia too and that country also is a piece of hell on Earth. The country is ugly, but the worst part is its people. If there is one people more despicable than the Pakistanis they must be the Saudis.

    Don’t make a mistake. It is not about race. It is all about the religion. The more religious minded Muslims become the more barbaric and evil they become.

    Genetically, we are all the same. The difference is in our upbringing and in our values. To the degree that Muslims follow their prophet, they become savages. Islam is a curse.

  15. To note: there was a persona before this claiming to be Indonesian – just as unresponsive. Now there is a name change.

    Again the timing – just too suspiciously near when Sina posts.

  16. Dear Ali Sina,
    Somehow I can commiserate with you on the thought of eradicating Islam from the earth, because for some time I have been nurturing such spirit too in my mind.

    As you always emphasize in many of your writings that the ultimate cause of terror since the time of Mohammed until now conducted by Moslems lies in the teaching of Islam.

    But as I lately wrote to you as a comment on Holland C. Taylor that the most Indonesian Moslems in fact very different than the Arab Moslems.

    Indeed the more kaffah (Qs. al-Baqarah 2:208) these Indonesian Moslems want to be then the more dangerous they will be and all of sudden without being aware they will be terrorists! That could be very true.

    We have to considere that….the Indonesian Moslems are mostly illiterate, mostly very lazy to read, so the most of them do not really know the real content of Islamic teaching. And if they learn Quran by heart the most of them still don’t know the meaning what they recite or sing in Arabic language.
    The most of them just believe that the Quran is good since it is God’s words without really knowing what words or sentences written in the Quran. This could actually considered as a blessing in disguise!!

    The same case matters about Mohammed. All the Indonesian Moslems are simply convinced that Mohammed was a messenger of God and he was the one and only best human being (Insan Kamil) since Adam until the end of the world (qiamat), also without knowing at all about the real life story of Mohammed. This could actually also considered as a blessing in disguise!!

    Best regards

  17. " I was in Pakistan before the Islamic revolution of Iran."

    No you weren't – This is an out and out lie. In a previous comment. . . you alleged this to be your father.

  18. " These were Buddhist and Hindu nations. They were tolerant and peace loving people."

    No they weren't – there is no such thing . . . Sina works this lie up to a fair treat. For example – if it suits him – he will claim Europe is made up of peace loving people. Yet it has one of the most bloodiest histories ever. These last 50 years seem like a respite period.

    Same thing with India, China and etc.

    - – - –

    Recurrence of such posts . . . where the person never bothers to reply back – and with Sina leaving all such messages . . . I have got my dander well up. Suspicious? You bet.

    Of course Sina didn't even bothered to play . . . 20 questions over the er. . . "books" – obviously not. I wonder why. . . .

  19. Dear Jaco,

    This is great news. But we must not lose time or become complacent. It does not take long for the so called moderate Muslims to turn extremists. Sooner or later the Indonesians will learn the truth. The question is who will tell them the truth first. Will it be the fundamentalist Muslims or the apostates? If they get to them before us, we lose them and if we get to them before, we can win them to our side. One thing is certain. Muslims will not remain moderate for long. If they are not weaned from Islam they will become extremists. All you have to do is look at Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. These were Buddhist and Hindu nations. They were tolerant and peace loving people. I was in Pakistan before the Islamic revolution of Iran. People were fanatic but nothing like today. The country has become ten times more radical that just a few decades ago. The same is true with Afghanistan and also Bangladesh.

    If we don\’t get to the Indonesians first they will go the same way the Pakistanis and the Afghanis have gone.

  20. I'm not, otherwise I would have been dead hours ago!

    He's most probably read Hustler and Playboy and attributes it to Ali Sina.

  21. Don't hold your breath for a reply.

  22. Which books of Ali Sina's have you read Jaco?

  23. "The majority of Indonesians are Java People"

    Actually less than 50% are Javanese. It is the largest ethnic group – but majority of Indonesian aren't Javanese.

    - – -

    "Islam came to Indonesia in the 17th Century not by force, but through Taqiyyah (smile!), where some merchants from India and Arabs used the hindu culture as a medium. For example they infiltrated the Bharatayuda (Hindu epic) in the wayang (shadow puppet) with islamic touches, e.g someone can have a divine power through what is called “Kalimusodo” which is actually meant as “Kalimah Syahadah”. And many other taqiyyah. "

    Seeking converts among Hindus is easy . . . given the caste system and other stupidities. When there is no evidence of the old sword . . . then it must be "Taqiyyah" which is more or less a modern invention – created by Christians to beat Muslims with.

    Little stories such as the one this alleged person paint are aplenty here . . . unsurprisingly when challenged you NEVER get an answer.

  24. How about 20 questions here . . . . "I am Indonesian and have read some books of yours. "

    As this is OBVIOUSLY a lie. See the games Sina plays.

  25. Dear Mr. Ali Sina
    I am Indonesian and have read some books of yours. I have no any objection about everything you wrote about how to understand Islam and Muhammad, I just want you to know a little bit more about muslims in Indonesia.
    As you surely know, the most living muslims in a state of this world are in Indonesia.
    Logically, according to a standard calculation Indonesia as a state should have the sharia as their constitution since allegedly around 80% of now 250 mio Indonesian citizens are muslims, but fortunately it is NOT the case. As the Indonesian People declared their freedom 1945, they all together have agreed in a good manner, meaning without force to have a constitution that is called UUD 1945 and a state philosophy called Pancasila.
    There were surely some efforts from some muslims to establish sharia in Indonesia, but they have failed. And there were also some military efforts to establish the sharia in Indonesia around 1950’s lead by Kahar Muzakar in West Java and other groups in Sulawesi, where all of them were also military crashed by the government.
    There are indeed terrorist groups and acts in Indonesia like Jamaah Islamiyah and Bali bombings.
    We have surely some so called “special provinces” like Jakarta, Yogyakarta, Papua and the one and only province ACEH where they use sharia law. This province Aceh has got their special right to use sharia law as a way out to end the long unrest in that region.
    What will I tell you with this short letter?
    According to my observation, the majority of Indonesian muslims and also the so called Indonesian muslim scholars do not want to have sharia law in Indonesia, and for that there are some reasons.
    1.Islam came to Indonesia in the 17th Century not by force, but through Taqiyyah (smile!), where some merchants from India and Arabs used the hindu culture as a medium. For example they infiltrated the Bharatayuda (Hindu epic) in the wayang (shadow puppet) with islamic touches, e.g someone can have a divine power through what is called “Kalimusodo” which is actually meant as “Kalimah Syahadah”. And many other taqiyyah.
    2.Indonesia was never colonized by arabs, so we did not experience the arab culture directly.
    3.We Indonesia in our history, firstly were not familiar with slavery, and secondly due to the colonialism era lead by the dutch did and do hate slavery.
    4.The majority of Indonesians are Java People who have developed their mix paganistic, hinduistic, budhistic and Islamic culture called kejawen, where the use of force is not common.
    5.There are surely more reasons I can tell you, but surely you can find out by yourself if you have interest to it.
    I just want to emphasize that eventhough there is indeed no such “moderate islam” if we just scrutiny the contents of quran and hadits, but fact is also that the majority of muslims in Indonesia do not want to have sharia and even “silently” reject some Islamic teachings.
    These are some facts:
    1.Since the fall of Soeharto’s regime 1998 and democracy was established, by the election of 1999 all of the Islamic parties got only 24% and 2009 even less, just ca. 17%.
    2.There was once a very loved mubaligh named Abdullah Gymnastiar a.k.a Aa Gym (born 1962). He had from 1990-2005 millions of jemaah and the majority of them were women. But as he married a second wife, i.e practicing polygamy, all the jemaah have left him. He tried hard to explain that poligamy is good according to islam teaching, but no-body wanted to hear that. And some years after that his first wife filed a divorce and she got many sympathies from her fellow muslim women.
    3.In August 2008, a very rich man from Semarang City, Central Java, named Syeh Puji (43 years) married a female child (11 years) as his second wife, the court has sent him and also the parents of the female child to the jail for some years. This man tried to convince the public, he just did the sunnah of Muhammad, but fortunately the fact showed us, the muslim majority could NOT and did NOT WANT to accept that. Also there was no single Indonesian muslim scholar who supported this crazy man.
    4.Nowadays a new governour and a vice governour for Jakarta will be elected on 20th of September 2012, and some crazy muslims tried to convince the public for not electing certain candidate because they are not muslims by using quran’s verses, but the most Indonesian muslims despised such campaign and neglect the quran.
    I just want to inform you about this fact. It is surely true that the most Indonesian muslims love their religion without knowing the exact content of the teaching, but because they have developed their own morality, which we Indonesian call it as Pancasila-Morality, we do NOT WANT to follow the Islamic teaching even if some one tried to show the real verses of the quran that they believe as God’s words, nevertheless (smile!).

  26. They donate only to Muslims, Hippocrates.

  27. eat non veg for all that its worth but dont pretend to say ur still merciful just becuase u butcher the animal differently. some logic that is.

  28. muslims say even though they eat non veg , they are still very merciful.
    i asked them how?
    to which they said , we kill the animal by a special process of halal. in which we first cut the main blood vessle to brain ( which one the jugular or the external carotid ) which disables the nervous system and the animal dsnt feel pain at all. hence we are merciful.
    lol to that , u kill a fellow living being and eat up his existence and u call urself merciful.
    and by the way from where ds the ideology that cutting the jugular makes death painelss came? did anyone ever survive it to give testimony??
    imagine the amoutn of pain we experiece when we cut our fingers, is it rocket science to imagine the poor animal's pain?

  29. you seem to be intelligent loki

  30. OUTSIDE the Name of Jesus Christ in sura 74:30 and sura 19:19 there can NEVER be a Moderate Muslim or ISLAM which then are Names and words to DECEIVE even the elect.

  31. "Ha ha ha ha ha . . . . oh the ego! "
    ———-

    Muhammad too wanted people to believe only in his book. Why don't you make fun of him too, and accuse him of having a big ego??

  32. You ask what triggered my hatred of Islam. I have said it many times. Like everyone else I could see the Muslim world is diseased, but like all Muslims I blamed it on the followers until I read the Quran. It was then that I realized the source of all this misery and violence is Muhammad and his insanity. So every time I see what Muslims do to themselves, to their women, their children and others, my blood boils and I renew my vow to stop this plague.

  33. If you read the history and learn about the unimaginable crimes that the Japanese committed in WWII, you will not condemn America for using nuclear bomb on Japan to end the war. But if it were me, I would have used it on an uninhabited area giving ultimatum that cities will be next.

    Anyway, that is history and no I don’t condemn America. If America had a nuclear bomb and had used it on Berlin in 1941, 50 million lives would not have been lost.

    I am a man of peace but i don’t advocate pacifism. Should there be need to nuke Muslim countries, I have no objection to it. I have said this many times, which Muslims keep quoting as evidence that I advocate mass slaughter of Muslims. No I don’t. But bullies must be stopped. And if it takes nuking them to stop their aggression then it is a moral thing to nuke them. We can’t let aggressors and bullies win. We have to use the maximum force necessary to stop them. This does not mean I advocate killing innocent people. I advocate stopping the aggressor and since the aggressors hide behind their women and children as cowards do, they become casualties. If we don’t use maximum force more people will die in the long run.

    Having a good heart does not mean being stupid and brainless. Aggressor must be stopped with crippling force.

    My goal is to save Muslims’ lives, by helping them recover from their insanity. If however I fail and they start nuking our cities, our response must be swift and paralyzing.

  34. Muhammad being Satan is a metaphor. If you read the traits of a narcissist in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and the attributes of Satan as described in the Bible, which originates from Zoroastrian texts, you can see they match. I don’t believe in Satan but I know about narcissistic personality disorder. Muhammad fits the description with all the nine symptoms. Only five of them are enough for diagnosis. Calling Muhammad or his fictitious Allah Satan is a very good description.

  35. "You are a hatemonger . . . . . . . your religious leaders . . . your own religion – that is hate monger and has indoctrinated you"
    ———–

    Perfect example of projection !

  36. But Ali Sina. If you claim to be an Atheist, where does Satan come into the equation and Mohammed following Satan?

    You don't believe in a God or a Devil, do you?

    So which one is it? Satan or no Satan?

    Take your time.

    And for the record, it was America that used the Atomic bomb, not once, but twice. So why don't you call for the annihilation of the USA and Christianity? You know why? Because if you did, your ass would be picked up faster than you could blink by the FBI, CIA, on a rendition flight and never to be seen again.

    Exactly what happened to you in life which filled your blood with venom? Please tell us. We already know you suffer from a number of medical conditions, but did something trigger them off or are they genetic?

    This is becoming a joke now with the 'nuke all the Muslims, but I love them really, so have to nuke them' rhetoric.

  37. Yes, one good example is when Nidal Malik Hasan shot his fellow American soldiers while shouting Allahu Akbar, the media repeated that it was due to stress and labeled it as work place violence. The investigation proved Nidal was a jihadi. This is common practice in the media to not blame Islam for all the evil things that Muslims do in the name of Islam. The British went even further and started calling jihad \”anti Islamic activity\”. This idiocy is beyond description but it shows to what extend the media and the western governments are willing to deceive their own people to appease Muslims. That is why we are here to tell the word the true story.

  38. "Far from any 'indoctrination with hate', all effort is made by schools, media, and movies to make Muslims look like normal people. "

    huh? Such as . . . you obviously have plenty of examples.

    - – -

    " I would never have known that they were abnormal, if I hadn't lived with Pakistani Punjabi roommates (for almost two years) "

    And this abnormality is?

    = = =

    You are a hatemonger of Sikh/Hindu origin – you haven't had the guts to say which. It is YOUR parents . . . your religious leaders . . . your own religion – that is hate monger and has indoctrinated you.

    = = =

    You come across absurdly simple minded . . . things seem to fly over your head. Anything you cannot deal with – you just ignore it.

    And you leave petty little comments. . . . and you seem to think that some how they are great service to humanity? huh?

  39. "Yes, India is very dirty, including Hindus. But since south asian Muslims are at least equally dirty, they should think twice before calling themselves better than others, and showing similar attitude. "

    He he he . . . see when the boot is on the other foot – how you like it.

    - – -

    My point remains – Sina has never been to Pakistan . . . that is why he used his dad as reference.

    Working things out is not exactly your forte. . .

  40. "According to Dr. Sina, there are no innocent Muslims because the supremacist Islam lives in them, and they protect it."

    Bullshit. Also that is not the reason he gives – his main reason is because Muslims are ignorant of Islam (i.e. His version). Anyone that doesn't practice the version he has in his mind – he labels them as "ignorant".

    - – -

    " (which he already has!, but you fail to see what he is saying). "

    Don't worry – I know very well what Sina has to say.

    - – -

    "You are educated, smart"

    Why . . . I am blushing!

    - – -

    "yet not try to work towards improving the lives of fellow humans. "

    huh? How do you know? See what I meant by coming out with dumb comments.

    What is it for humanity that you do . . . that is great?

    - – -

    "An educated, smart person like you should even be looking deep in the religion (Islam) to see if the problem lies there, "

    huh? This BS doesn't work . . . I know far far far more about Islam – than you can even imagine – if going on your logic . . it is you who needs to learn more.

    - – -

    You are the same coward who cannot even use his name, sate his religion . .

    . . . the exact same on who ran off from a debate saying you weren't professional enough!

    - – -

    "AND then work towards fixing that problem, even if it means telling to the face of other educated Muslims that the problem lies in Islam. "

    Problems lie with people like you . . . for example Quran stating that the Earth is flat lie.

    When it clearly doesn't – yet despite not having evidence . . . you hold on to it.

    That is because you are a hate monger.

    - – -

    You are a person of ANOTHER religion . . . that comes and spread hate about others . . .

    I suggest the problem lies with you OWN BELIEFS.

    Whether Hindusim/Sikhism.

  41. "I will be doing this by exposing your double standards."

    Go right ahead. You have failed spectacularly so far . . its your hypocrisy that is being shown.

    - – -

    "by showing the readers how you ignore the suffering on fellow human beings (caused by Islam)"

    Right . . . I am intrigued!

    - – -

    "FFI when it trys to improve human condition by curing the disease that we have identified (Islam). "

    "tries" not "trys"

    By labeling a religion as disease. . . and that is improving things. Yet you yourself are either Sikh/Hindu . . . Islam is no disease.

    And you have identified nothing. You don't have the capability. At best you end debates . . . as you cannot hold one.

    - – -

    You bring things to a banal end. That is all. But whatever amuses you. . .

  42. Don’t Muslims believe that anyone who leaves Islam should be punished and not even ransom will be accepted for him, in other words he should be put to death? (Q. 3:90-91) Don’t they believe that the unbelievers should be terrorized (Q. 3:151, 8:60, 6:12) and slayed wherever they are found (2:191). Don’t they believer that fighting is prescribed for them (2:216, 2:193). Don’t they believe that they should not befriend the unbelievers because they are najis? (3:28, 9:23 ) Don’t they believe that they have to fight the unbelievers and subdue them and force them to pay extortion fee for their life? (9:29).

    Doesn’t they believe that women are tilt to me (Q. 2:223) and that men are superior to women who can verbally, emotionally and physically abuse them (4:34)? Don’t they believe that women are less intelligent than men and, their testimony is not really as valid as that of a man and they don’t deserve to get an equal share of their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12, 2:282)? Don’t they believe that it is okay to rape women captured in war and that slavery is okay(Q.4:24, 33:50)?

    I can go on. All these are evil and Muslims believe they are the guidance of God to mankind. If they do they are evil and if they don’t they should not call themselves Muslims. Those who don’t believe in these evil teachings and still call themselves Muslim are accessories to evil. They are not innocent. Their innocence ends the moment they learn about what the Quran teaches.

  43. "Are you threatening me?"
    ———
    huh…. How did you conclude that? I said now your days at FFI are numbered. I will be doing this by exposing your double standards. That is, by showing the readers how you ignore the suffering on fellow human beings (caused by Islam), and yet you deride FFI when it trys to improve human condition by curing the disease that we have identified (Islam).

  44. According to Dr. Sina, there are no innocent Muslims because the supremacist Islam lives in them, and they protect it. However, I will let HIM elaborate more on this (which he already has!, but you fail to see what he is saying).

    I will answer regarding you however, aminriadh. You are NOT innocent! You are educated, smart, and yet not try to work towards improving the lives of fellow humans. An educated, smart person like you should even be looking deep in the religion (Islam) to see if the problem lies there, AND then work towards fixing that problem, even if it means telling to the face of other educated Muslims that the problem lies in Islam.

  45. Yes, India is very dirty, including Hindus. But since south asian Muslims are at least equally dirty, they should think twice before calling themselves better than others, and showing similar attitude.

  46. "Actually I am – Lamberi Noushera! Kashmir. See – you come out with real dumb comments"
    ————

    Glad to know that at least one Kashmiri consider himself to be Indian. But then I wonder why you said the following

    "You are of Indian origin . . . and you have been indoctrinated with hate against Muslims since birth -. . ."

    If you have spent time inside India (and outside of Kashmir) then you know full well that the above statement is NOT true. Far from any 'indoctrination with hate', all effort is made by schools, media, and movies to make Muslims look like normal people. I would never have known that they were abnormal, if I hadn't lived with Pakistani Punjabi roommates (for almost two years)

  47. Why did you post this garbage here? Under a comment which says . . . .

    "Are you threatening me? "

    - – -

    " Is there anything as innocent fascist, innocent misogynist, innocent bigot, innocent religious supremacist, innocent violator of human rights? If yes, then there are also innocent Muslims. "

    Nice attempt . . . but Muslims aren't what you characterize them to be. As genus.

    Even your followers deny this aspect of yours. I have yet to come across one here that agrees.

    - – -

    "Muslims are innocent to the degree of their ignorance of Islam. The more they know about it and keep their faith the less innocent they become. "

    Again – you build the bogus categorisation in the first place. The whole drama is wrong.

  48. Is there anything as innocent fascist, innocent misogynist, innocent bigot, innocent religious supremacist, innocent violator of human rights? If yes, then there are also innocent Muslims.

    Don\’t confuse ignorant Muslim with innocent Muslim. The words although sometimes are interchangeable they are not the same. Muslims are innocent to the degree of their ignorance of Islam. The more they know about it and keep their faith the less innocent they become.

  49. "You are stoopig down to insults to avoid responsibility! "

    Pot calling the kettle black.

  50. "Crack up your knuckles Amin; Now your days at FFI are numbered! "

    Are you threatening me?

  51. "but the fact that you concluded it that way, makes you even more of a clown to whoever is going to be reading your comments. "

    He he he – you should really think! before posting comments.

    Your Master Sina – says there are no innocent Muslims. So what do you say?

  52. huh? So . . . if show you India's slums and call whole India as dirty – and all its inhabitants as scum and never take a shower . . . what would you call that.

    Although bits are true . . . India is a very dirty country.

    - – -

    And even phrase it like Sina.

    - – -

    Aren't Sikhs and Hindu really dirty – their religion has no values regarding purity and cleanliness.

  53. Muslim rule in India was longer than 300 years . . . so why start from 300?

  54. "Truth is NOT hate! But truth does hurt, so sorry you are hurting. "

    This describes you well . . . you will miss out everything else and just makes comments like the above. That are pretty meaningless and add nothing to the debate.

    - – -

  55. "Even the statement you made- "Quran is neutral regarding the shape of Earth" is FALSE. This is apparent from reading the Quran, both with and without considering context. "

    How is it false and which – context are you considering?

    Previously you ran away from this . . . and claim you weren't "professional".

    Yet you still repeat this lie. This means despite evidence to the contrary . . . you will hold on to falsehood as longs as it is about Islam.

    - – -

    " However, I never admitted that the statement- 'Earth is flat according to Quran' is False, and I still don't. "

    Why don't you? That is what I am getting at.

    - – - –

    "Apparently, you are not Indian. If you were, you would never have said that. "

    Actually I am – Lamberi Noushera! Kashmir. See – you come out with real dumb comments.

  56. "And what waidriboohunna mean other then beat them?"

    "!"

  57. "If you read my book you will throw all the garbage you had read about Islam. I have made this religion so clear to understand that anyone can become an instant expert on it. "

    Ha ha ha ha ha . . . . oh the ego!

  58. " If the abrahamic god exists, it most surely knows the exact shape of Earth, so why did it not use words that allowed no doubt? Why does it force us to put our faith in another human instead of itself? Makes you think, doesn't it? "

    Because the purpose . .. wasn't to give knowledge of the Earth shape. Else you cannot say. . . why God just doesn't reveal himself and have done with it!

    You seemed to have missed the whole notion of "religion" :)

    - – -

  59. "Not authorirised by any sunni or Shiite, i mean sectarian authorization of the Quran so that's what i stand for."

    Actually – you don't separating away like that – instantly makes you a sect.

    No "sect" class itself the "sect" – it is always EVERYONE else that is the "sect".

    Hence there is no such thing as " no sect"

    - – -

    What else are you going to claim. . . . meanings to the Quran – that are not in Arabic. . . hence re-invent Arabic to give the Quran totally new meanings?

    What do you rely on as a lexicon?

    - – -

    Edip and Khalifah – seems to have invented their own little lexicon.

    - – -

    "As for Arabic Mambo Jumbo, when people refuse to accept issues they boast about their knowledge of the language."

    Which issue? Why were you claiming knowledge of Arabic – when you hadn't. And rather than accepting that graciously . . you have turned it into this farce.

    - – -

    "The issue is simple whether you go with egg or spread you will be right. "

    No you WOULDN'T be. . . That word does not mean an egg in Arabic.

    Else show me?

    - – -

    "whereas there Arabs who read the Quran in their very language but are fornicators, Thieves, wife snatchers, frauds. "

    This hasn't got anything to do with . . . the above. Hence meaningless.

  60. "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."

    Hasn't this proven to be true?

  61. "So only those who believe the quran and practice what it says can have valid interpretations of the quran? "

    Yes – in the context that surely it is how they find their book and what they believe it to be – that matters! That I thought was obvious.

    - – -

    "Most Muslims rely on traditions to decide what islamic practice is, because the quran never spells out what islamic practice is. I don't want to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but if you accept the authenticated ahadith,

    Muslims have clear rules and regulations and principles – regarding Ahdaith – authenticated or otherwise.

    An authentic Hadith . . . simply means its chain of narration is correct. That is all. The content is not looked at. That is why Hadith does NOT automatically mean the law. . . it just isn't as simple as that.

    Then there is the next stage . . . Usul al Fiqh – Principles of Jurisprudence. At this stage – law is derived from content – by Quran, Hadith, Consensus of Scholars and Analogical Reasoning.

    Just because a Hadith is Authentic – does not mean its content is valid and it will form the law. Hence the 4 major schools of Fiqh.

    - – -

    Muslims separate between Hadith corpus and Quran. Belief in the Quran is obligatory to be a Muslim – Hadith it isn't.

    This is a longish debate . . . and I cannot do it justice. The point I am making is . . . you have to take the Hadith corpus as Muslims take and believe in it.

    = = =

    "He did order people killed if he could have spared their lives."

    I do not get the English of this. Each accessible on its own merit. He had to make difficult choices . . . again please bring example that you consider – problematic?

    "He made special rules for himself."

    Such as? And what impact do they have? Things like that are too general . . .and you do this a lot.

    "He had sex with a child. That makes him a nasty character in my book. "

    I don't think he did.

  62. Sorry, but even though both an ostrich egg and Earth are spheroids, the shape of the Earth is not quite that of your typical ostrich egg (which, by the way, differ quite significantly from each other in size, weight and shape). Earth's minor axis is only 0.335% smaller than its major axis, so if you would place a representation of Earth on a HD screen, with the minor axis equal to 1080 pixels, the major axis would be not quite 1084 pixels (the oblateness of Earth is 0.00033528). On the scale of a pool ball (diameter 57.15mm), this translates as a difference of 0.019mm, which makes it almost as smooth as a regulation WPA pool ball (0.0127mm).

    Compare this with an ostrich egg (average dimensions 13x15cm), which has an oblateness of 0.1333. Applying that oblateness to a pool ball we get 7.61mm.

    Conclusion: Earth is not shaped as an ostrich egg. You are using creative reading to find what you are looking for. It's like reading Nostradamus and finding a prophecy for 9/11 after 9/11.

    What you have just proved is that it is possible to read anything you want in a religious text, but you cannot prove it. If the abrahamic god exists, it most surely knows the exact shape of Earth, so why did it not use words that allowed no doubt? Why does it force us to put our faith in another human instead of itself? Makes you think, doesn't it?

  63. "You're doing it again. You believe you are right and refuse to see that the two sides simply have a different interpretation of the situation (or text, or whatever). "

    I don't know what this means – and what it relates to.

    - – -

    "Please tell me if you feel islam a religion that will work well in a multi-cultural and multi-religion society, and if you believe yourself to be sincere. "

    Yes . . . as long as Muslims concede to following the law of the land. But what has this got to do with anything? Why bring up new points and not answer previous outstanding ones?

    - – -

    "If you answer "yes" to the two questions, could you try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who sincerely believes islam to be a religion that will be a danger to such a society? "

    Then I would expect . . . reasons and evidence?

    - – - –

    "This is not about who is right about 8:61. As far as I am concerned, the verse can be interpreted in many ways (that is the hallmark of religious texts, to be so vague as to need interpretation). What really matters is your use of the word "truthful", because it means that you believe that Ali Sina knows that it means what you think it means, and maliciously decides to misinterpret it. "

    Bill – I know that you are far from stupid . . . If you scroll ABOVE – he DID misrepresent it. . . FACT! I cannot make it clearer.

    He lied, falsified. . .

    - – -

    "If you cannot accept that people are truthful when they have opinions that differ from your opinions, how can you expect them to accept that you are truthful? "

    On merit. . . I do not find SINA to be truthful. . . given his lying.

    We are NOT talking about mere opinions and you bloody well know it.

    Do you know what lying is? I think you might just need to check you definition.

    = = = = =

    "If you believe they are honest (as I do), why are you arguing with me? And if you believe they are honest, why not believe that Ali Sina is honest too? "

    This is load of BS. . . and bad logic.

    - – -

    "It was you who said you found his interpretations to be more or less correct. I asked for your basis . . . especially when talking about a PARTICULAR verse . . . 8:61 – he was less than truthful. "

    You never did bother to answer.

  64. " You state that id we had “power” we would kill Muslims. "

    I don't know who you are . . . and how you come under any "we". If Sina had any power – he wouldn't have qualms about killing many Muslims . . . given his statements such as no innocent Muslim.

    - – -

    "Viz-a-viz drone attacks: yes they kill innocent people, but what of suicide bombings in market-places, mosques etc."

    I condemn all such actions – by all who carry them out. i have never implied anything to the opposite. Unlike Sina.

    - – - –

    "whereas we target terrorists. "

    Again – you have confusing sense of using the word "we". Here ends don't justify the means. When you know something that kills more innocent than actual guilty – then why such targets?

    Especially given the many alternatives

    - – -

    "Yes we “insult” Muslims and your are right it is (mostly) “nothing to us”. "

    Says it all.

    - – -

    " Thus this isn't about hate, it's about a genuine inability on the part of non-Muslims to identify the purported “moderates”. "

    huh? Sina is a hatemonger . . . his language shows it. He is no "moderate".

    No it isn't – It is about hate. Millions of Muslims co-exist and live peacefully enough with the West. Saudi Arabia and USA have strong diplomatic and military ties. And they are 2 the extremes.

    - – -

    In the U.K. the government recently cut finding to a number of Islamic “partner” organisations when it was found that far from promoting the Gov.t's “prevent” anti-radicalisation strategy, these organisations were promoting or had links to Islamist organisations.

    A link to the story would have been nice.

    - – -

    "You claim that this is “a bizarre and frankly appalling and disgusting point to make”. From what I wrote above one may see that that it isn't bizarre – though you may be appalled and disgusted if you wish, rather it is a simple fact. "

    I don't know what the hell you are talking about – or referring back to. This is why I use quotes. It works.

    - – -

    "To be fair, I understand why non-violent Muslims are so often silent: they know that their violent “brothers” will kill them too for lack of zeal (i.e. being a “dayouth”) and death is the Shariah punishment for this “crime” (no surprise there)"

    huh? Again . . . you claim what you like . . . again putting death and shriah together – wrongly, deceivingly, falsely.

    - – -

    " we don't hate Muslims"

    If you are in same "we" as Sina – then you do . . . . as he does. That is obvious from many of his statements. They are NOTHING but "hate".

    - – -

    "(in the sense of consider vile, repugnant, very dangerous, regressive, repressive, oppressive, uncivilised, de-civilising, utterly and implacably opposed to all we hold dear) the ideology of Islam itself."

    Islam isn't that. People like you tend to pluck out what fits within your worldview and leave whatever contradicts. That is what Sina does.

    - – - –

  65. "A Muslim reasoning is really bizarre. Muslims become terrorist and attack America. America fights back and kills them, but I and Robert Spencer are responsible. How did you come to that conclusion?"

    We are not talking about . . . those guilty – and you know that perfectly well.

    We are talking about the innocent – avoidable deaths.Those killed by carpet bombing places, using drone attacks that kill innocent, mines and such.

    This is YOUR twisting of what I said. . . . and check out the hateful language.

    Of course – as you have REPEATEDLY said . . . to you no Muslim is innocent.

  66. "We are talking about tactics like Shock and Awe, Using mines, drone attacks, carpet bombings . . . that indiscriminately kill people. "

    If the Americans, with their weapons, want to win a war, they can win it much quicker if they do indeed indiscriminately people.

    But nowadays, targeting only hostiles and not civilians is at least tried hard by NATO-forces. And NATO-forces do not hide among civilians as Taliban-fighters do.

    But drone-attacks have been useful for diminishing collateral damage. And I still say that the Taliban itself is responsible for 70 to 80 % of the killings in Afghanistan.

    It is important to compare America's wars with previous wars or other wars, not with some sort of peaceful situation.

    In the past, by many warring peoples, much more indiscriminate killing was going on, like in WWII or in Vietnam.

    I can also think of how the Syrian regime reacts to rebellion; much, much worse than the Americans fight.

    Then why condemn one warring nation harder and more often than another?

    I try to judge independent of a violators religion, do you try that to?

  67. Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).

    war deceit simply means I will fool you during the war . When Allies wanted to attack Germany during WWII which was known as landing in normandy they made Germans believe that the invasion will come from English channel so this maneuvre or this trick will be called by Arabs war deceit

    We don't know Arabic ( many of us do !)…..

    which one of you

    . you read out of context (there is no context in Quran or ahadith…. you are stupid (Hmmmm)…. you must be a muslim scholar ( Muslim SCHOLAR ???)…you….you ……I KILL YOU !!!! Hahahahahahahaha.
    Shame on you !!

    From this response it shows that the stupid is you .

  68. You can feel yourself aligned with a person/ organisation you admire without agreeing with everything of them.

    And Ali Sina clearly elaborates that he talks about a reaction, a defensive measure.

  69. TO ZITOUNI. You want proof? Here it is.
    The Qur’an in a variety of verses (2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims.

    Next time dummy if somebody told you I got verses which teach Muslims to lie

    break oaths violat treaties and schem against non-Muslims. ckeck them first before you post them here . You have been programmed that only Muslims lie and those anti Islamic bigot are so honest so let me show you how dumb and stupid you are

    Verse 2 : 225
    Allah does not impose blame upon you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He imposes blame upon you for what your hearts have earned. And Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.

    This verse was revealed in response to some Muslims who mistakely swore by the name of false God that they used to worship before Islam which we call slip of the tongue so God says do not worry if that happened to you because God look at what is in your hearts

    verse 3: 28
    Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

    what is taking non Muslims are allies get to do with teaching Muslim tto lie ,
    breaking oaths , violating treaties, or scheming against non-Muslims.

    verse 3 : 54
    And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

    same thing with this verse out of topic

    Verse 9:3

    And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

    This verse says that God and his prophet got nothing to do with Mushriks ( Arab pagans ) if they repent it will be good for them , but if they turn away they should know it will not cause failure to God and let then now for the coming painful punishment . nothing in the verse talks about breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims.

    Verse 16:106
    Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief… except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

    Verse just says that Muslims who volontary disbelieve in God after they converted to Islam they will get punished by God except those who were forced by disbeliers to leave Islam by way of tortures they do not have to worry they are excempt from punishement because they did not leave Islam volountaraly

    Verse 40:28
    And a believing man from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith said, "Do you kill a man [merely] because he says, 'My Lord is Allah ' while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he should be lying, then upon him is [the consequence of] his lie; but if he should be truthful, there will strike you some of what he promises you. Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar.

    This verse dummy clearly condemned liars . You did not know because you are reading it for the first time idiot . Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar . did you see that ? . I really do not know what the hell ran through the mind of this person who gave you this verse he has just shot himself in foot LOL

    Verse 66:2
    in order to understand verse you have to begin with verse 66 : 1
    verse 66 : 1 O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Verse 66 : 2
    Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.

    This has nothing to do with lying and or taking oaths front of judge . Prophet prohibited on himself by taking oath on himself not to touch one of his wives because he had some problem with her so God told him why you have prohibited what Allah has made lawful for you, so he told him that he can just disolute the oath which he took on himself between himself .

    now moron did you see why Ali sina has field day with people like you because you guys are so dumb and easy meat . Not a single verse teaches lying , breaking oaths , violating treaties or scheming against non-Muslims. as you were told . This is the website from where you got these informations

    http://frontpagemag.com/2012/david-meir-levi/taqi

  70. Thanks esther, i am stupid.

  71. What honor , Zitouni ?
    You are a SLAVE, a slave of allah,
    a muslimslave.
    YOU HAVE NO HONOR !
    You only have SHAME.

  72. STUPID MUSLIM.

  73. YEAH, AND WHATARE THE LIMITS ?
    Your evil Allah does not give the limits ! Well he leaves that to his
    mafioso-prophet Mohammed.The perfect role model for Muslims.
    And this guy knows the limits for sure. You can find them in the
    hadees and the Sirat Rasulallah.
    Surprise: there are NO limits.Muslims can murder, steal, torture, rape, anything they want !
    Yo can find here some examples: http://www.faithfreedom.org/category/the-challeng

  74. JUST READ CRETIN, IF YOU DARE TO.
    AMIN….AMEEN !!

  75. Keep dreaming muslim bastard!
    We will beat you with the TRUTH . It will not even be difficult.
    We will DESTROY. YOUR EVIL AND MISERABLE MUSLIM HOUSE FROM IN- AND OUT SIDE. YOU ARE WHITNESSING IT YOURSELF , RGHT NOW.
    It will be funny …;-)

  76. TO HELL WITH ISLAM
    Sunday 5 August 2012, 5:41 pm

    SHAME, SHAME ON YOU , BACKWARD AND RETARDED MUSLIM.
    YOU ARE JUST AS STUPID AS YOUR INSANE CAMEL (Al Insan Al Kamil ) the fake prophet Mohammed (REAL NAME: QOTHAM= FILTHY ).
    To hell with Islam , where it belongs !

  77. OF COURSE BACKWARD MUSLIM.
    I AM DIFICIENT IN INTELLIGENCE AND RELIGION. YOUR EVIL FAKE PROPHET SAID IT.
    IT GOES OF COURSE ALSO FOR YOUR MOTHER (!), SISTERS , AUNTS, ETC. ETC. THEY ARE WOMEN ,( NOT LADIES , BEING RETARDED MUSLIMA'S ).
    PLEASE DON'T BE A COWARD ZITOUNI, BLOW YOURSELF UP FOR ALLAH !!

  78. Some of the most evil aya's (and there are many) to my mind are :
    (Surat Ali Imran 3:28) – Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless you are guarding yourselves against them as a precaution. Allah bids yous to beware of Himself. And to Allah is the journeying.-
    And :
    (Suratul Maaidah 5:51) – O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of one another. And whoever of you takes them for friends is (one) of them. Surely Allah does not guide wrongdoing people.-
    Of course will the muslims say ot must be "helpers"and not "friends". Does this improve things? Of course not. Allah divides people here. He is discriminating. AL WARA AL BARA . YEP,…EVIL !!!!

  79. Thats all what you got insult . This shows that you are just stupid ignorant lady

  80. You are stuck and can't refute the arguments presented against Islam

    Amators like you do not have arguments

    and therefore say once must be a scholar of Arabic, literature, grammar, etc. None of that is required. All you need is a bit of commonsense.

    Says who . If you are too dumb to study Koran do not come up with excuses .

    The more you dig into these sources the more you see Islam is nothing but the delusional thinking of a mentally sick man.

    Amators like you cannot see anything , but ignorance . You think this is christianity the more you study the more you find out nonsense . Bart ehraman the leading expert on christianity in the world entered to university as devout born again christian and came out as atheist while I have never heard something like this happened in Islam . You have first to enrol in University and study everything and if you see koran is book of nonsense then you will have point right now your opion is worthless. I think delusional mentality sick peron is you which I will prove later

    However, they are not essential, unless you want to be a scholar.

    so you have admitted that you are not scholar meantimes you want people to take seriously the writing of an amator on the subject . Do you know only scholars on Islam are qualified to prove or disprove Islam and this is true with all fields of studies be theology, Math , physics . You sound like somebody who says I am not surgeon , but if you need surgery feel free to call me . People will think that this person is delusional mentaliy sick person . So you have just showed to us that you are mentaly disturbed person LOL

    Ordinary Muslims, can easily see Islam is a lie just by reading my book or articles.

    so ordinay Muslims, I am not impressed , well ordinary Muslims can be deceived by anybody just like ordinary of any faith . I want to see you convincing Muslim like me who is well versed on islam . I will be laughing on your attempt just I laugh about your articles which are full of errors

  81. The Quran claims to be a clearly written book, easy to understand.

    Wrong , koran says it is clear book and in no where it says easy to understand . You are confusing clear with easy and I am surprise that somebody who calls himself doctor make that stupid msitake . If I say this is a clear book it does not mean easy book . For example books of science are clear books to the scientists and if you do not find them as such then blame yourself and not the books . Koran in contrary says that only God knows the interpretation of Mutashabihat verses .

    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
    ( verse 3 :7 )

    so how can you claim that koran an easy book to understand . What God meant by a clear book is that koran is not confusing book plus God says koran clear book in Arabic and not in English .
    In a clear Arabic language. (verse 26 : 195 )
    And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.
    ( verse 16 : 105 )

    from the verses we can see that God recognises ONE koran the one in Arabic and if you are reading it in English thats not koran it is rather man made book . Thats why through out history Muslims were doing interpretation of koran from Arabic text and they never used another language . We do not consider English koran to be the word of God , period . The translation are meant to give you an idea about koran and they are not used for scholarly work on koran . Experts use Arabic text for that . We are fortunate that we have the work of our prophet written in language which he spoke unlike christians their NT is written in Greek language which Jesus did not know . However if you are looking in koran for just guidance and how to be saved from hell it should be easy for you to understand that by reading koran in any language . Koran is clear on that not like the bible in one hand Jesus says the law of Moses should be kept in order to be saved on the other hand we have Paul who says you do not need law of Moses to be saved you need just blood fo Jesus . This is confusing to me and it is matter of hell or paradise and not un important matter .This is like fire broke out and I need guidance of my way out to safelty here I have somebody is telling me to turn right and another is telling to turn left . so this is not irrelevant matter . Can you know find something like that in Koran ? . If scholars of koran disagree on interepretation of verse it is usually verse which is irelevant as far as your personal salvation is concerned . I give you one example some scholars and those are very few believe that child that Abraham was about to sacrify was ishaq while others believe it was Ishmael . Who cares which one was . This has nothing to do with my salvation it will only be so if it says if you got the wrong name you will end up in hell .

  82. People like Sina are hate-monger – they will turn on you . . .

    Same thing USA did with the Mujahideen – then armed them up in Afghanistan . . . what happened?

    Iraq . . . Saddam was "Our Bastard"

    So what went wrong?

    - – -

    "I just wanted to emphasize that many of the deaths of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, that are attributed to the West, really were the responsibility of fellow Muslims; as Al Qaida and Taliban. "

    This is a disgusting thing to say . . . and a cop out.

    We are talking about tactics like Shock and Awe, Using mines, drone attacks, carpet bombings . . . that indiscriminately kill people.

    - – -

    "So I might counter with: More evidence points to the radical Muslims killing Muslims than the West killing Muslims. "

    No it doesn't.

    - – -

    "As you did not give sources on more evidence points to the West, forgive me now for not giving them. Let us agree to disagree on this. "

    No we won't.

  83. IT IS PATHETIC HOW THESE MUSLIM CREATURES ARE TRYING TO SOUND LOGICAL.
    YOU MAKE YOURSELF THE SHAME OF YOUR RELIGION .
    SHAME ON YOU !

  84. Well, I'll think about it. I must think hard about what you said about sources. They are a big worry.

    But I do read in a broad range and I do see Mainstream TV with all sorts of commentators and I do speak with a lot of different persons about this issue.

    It is my deep suspicion that Muslims too have deeply biased sources.

    It seems hard to find genuine unbiased sources. But I'll try.

    But even if I read biased sources according to you like FFI, Jihad Watch, lot's of their material, OK, not all, but lot's, is corroborated by other news sources, in press, in articles.

    Although press can distort, you say, but here again, I do believe perhaps too much. But going on, I am openminded for alternative explanations and much prepared (on principle) to exchange one opinion about an issue with a better one.

    I am glad that you say that having fears is fine. But even hatemongering is within freedom of speech and I assure you that to me non-violence is very important.

    So with only verbal hatemongers I go a long way. But I stop right where incitement or onjust justification of violence is concerned.

    And I judge Ali Sina's verbal war and it's consequences different from you.

    And OK Ali Sina is not perfect. But sometimes it is better to ally with someone close enough than to be a lone wolf.

    I see you compare Westerners killing Muslims with the vice versa. OK, since worldwar II I take your point, will think about it. Maybe the threat is less than I thought.

    I just wanted to emphasize that many of the deaths of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, that are attributed to the West, really were the responsibility of fellow Muslims; as Al Qaida and Taliban.

    So I might counter with: More evidence points to the radical Muslims killing Muslims than the West killing Muslims.

    As you did not give sources on more evidence points to the West, forgive me now for not giving them. Let us agree to disagree on this.

  85. It gives a false impression that name of the last prophet PBUH is given and a person is shown sitting with glass and cheering position

  86. So only those who believe the quran and practice what it says can have valid interpretations of the quran?

    Most Muslims rely on traditions to decide what islamic practice is, because the quran never spells out what islamic practice is. I don't want to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but if you accept the authenticated ahadith, Muhammad wasn't exactly the kind of guy I would ask to babysit my granddaughter.

    He did order people killed if he could have spared their lives. He made special rules for himself. He had sex with a child. That makes him a nasty character in my book.

  87. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Sunday 5 August 2012, 1:41 pm

    ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌

  88. Shh………… ! Ali Sina is jihadist doing takiya because he interpret as same as jihadist .

  89. I see. I agree about what you say with having an extreme skeptic mind.

    Aminriadh often asks for evidence and sources. Saying otherwise statements of facts and situations and conclusions without evidence are not valid. But I am not THIS skeptical.

    I even admit that unlike you I can not bring myself into believing that the quran comes directly from Allah.

    But I shall endeavour to have an open mind to the remote possibility. And also to the details of the meaning of the Quran Muslims offer.

  90. Sorry for the late reply. I was unable to post for a couple of days.

    You're doing it again. You believe you are right and refuse to see that the two sides simply have a different interpretation of the situation (or text, or whatever).

    Please tell me if you feel islam a religion that will work well in a multi-cultural and multi-religion society, and if you believe yourself to be sincere.

    If you answer "yes" to the two questions, could you try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who sincerely believes islam to be a religion that will be a danger to such a society?

    This is not about who is right about 8:61. As far as I am concerned, the verse can be interpreted in many ways (that is the hallmark of religious texts, to be so vague as to need interpretation). What really matters is your use of the word "truthful", because it means that you believe that Ali Sina knows that it means what you think it means, and maliciously decides to misinterpret it.

    If you cannot accept that people are truthful when they have opinions that differ from your opinions, how can you expect them to accept that you are truthful?

  91. Does Allah say that ? ……WHERE ?

  92. TO ZITOUNI. You want proof? Here it is.
    The Qur’an in a variety of verses (2:225, 3:28, 3:54, 9:3, 16:106, 40:28, and 66:2) establishes the religious legitimacy of breaking oaths, lying, unilaterally violating treaties, and generally scheming against non-Muslims. Allah Himself is described as “the best of schemers” (3:54, 8:30, 10:21), and Muhammad declared, as a justification for murdering unarmed prisoners after offering them safe passage, “war is deceit” (see the Hadith collection of Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-271).
    Oh… and we know your taqiyya answers already:
    We don't know Arabic ( many of us do !)…… you read out of context (there is no context in Quran or ahadith…. you are stupid (Hmmmm)…. you must be a muslim scholar ( Muslim SCHOLAR ???)…you….you ……I KILL YOU !!!! Hahahahahahahaha.
    Shame on you !!

  93. Your mentor is the evil Insane Camel Fukcer , the fake prophet Mohammed.
    We non-muslims can and may think for ourselves. YOU ARE A SLAVE OF ALLAH, you have no choice but OBEYING !!

  94. Not that I agree with Richard shouting his lungs out, but how do you know Richard doesn't speak Arabic?

  95. You are no TOUGH MEAT, ZITOUNI.
    YOU ARE ROTTEN MEAT.
    ROTTEN CAMEL MEAT !
    You are a backward and stupod Arab muslim. That are all inbred and the most inhuman of all muslims.
    Blow yourself up , cretin, and go to your brothel heaven . DON'T BE A COWARD!
    KILL SOME INNOCENT FELLOW HUMANS !!

  96. "Yes, I can see that JihadWatch and MEMRI TV are prejudiced, but by the same token of course in Islamic countries the press is prejudiced and often political-correct press is ignoring evidence. And you see Jihadwatch and MEMRI TV seem to me stakeholders in defending and even expanding peacefully Democratic laws, values and human rights. "

    Difference is – No one is hold that press up as .. . . as source.

    - – -

    "Examples: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics
    to begin with "

    What is this about – I didn't get it. Wiki Islam too is by Christian fundamentalist. Each of its claims are taken on particular merit . . .

    - – -

    Here is a little lie for you . . . from Wiki Islam.

    Look at this claim:

    "4 out of 5 Middle-Eastern women are sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 6 by family members. "

    But look at the evidence:
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_%28Ch

    The evidence does NOT support the claim.

    Within that one of it claims ABout Jordan – simply goes to a news site and it is NOT about what the claim that they put on the 1st page.

    - – -

    Another thing that is noticeable is that many of their claims simply go to newspaper reports. . . but this is problematic. If you go back and check the original reports – the claims are not same. Or they do not appear to be the same.

    For example – the alcohol consumption . . . if you check the source – there is difference between alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks. Also – destinations where tourism is popular. When presenting brief newspaper reports – they do not make distinctions.

    - – -

    "Well, look, Amin, if what I or others present is only evidence of a few, so too the evidence presented of the opposite views are but of a few.
    Many of us do have fear of Islam, we do see threats, danger from a part of Islam and Muslims. No way around it. "

    Yes – look having fears is fine . . . championing hate-mongers . . .that isn't.

    Look at all the sites that you point out . . . none of them are unbiased.

    - – - –

    "And under those circumstances we need proof of safety. Until then: Islam can be dangerous, to us, until proven safe, to us."

    You are talking COMPLETE nonsense – more evidence points to the West killing Muslims – than other way round.

    If you read all such material . . . you would be messed up.

  97. You will agree with me that there is a degree of Skepticism that actually makes ones mind blind to virtually every issues that is discussed, you will agree with me, even in the everyday world of science which we claim have got experimental backups there are still issues people are still skeptic about, do you then say you do not accept the current available explanations? That skepticism, ie, extreme skepticism if applied to the Quran turns one blind to the message. I for one self believe in understanding before faith and not vice-versa, How do you understand everything with a state of extreme doubt. this smae atitude would lead you to even deny proofed scientific facts because to every issue there seem to be tiny parts of them that still seem to cast doubts on the minds of people.

  98. To be open minded looks good. But Christians told me that it is important to take the leap of faith. To start with faith. Perhaps this is also what you meant, dramaniEdem.

    You think it is wrong to study the Quran with a skeptic mind, but I think it could be equally wrong to study the Quran with only a totally believing mind. Which is NOT an open mind.

  99. "Islam has numerous enemies that are way more powerful than you will ever be in a 100 lifetimes"
    ————

    Would you be kind enough to name 3 or 4 of these uber-powerful enemies of Islam?? Not historical enemies, but today's enemies.

  100. thats why every time you interpret a verse in koran you have it wrong . Just take look and see how did you interpret verse 860 and you remember verse about fitna which you had it all wrong because the word fitna was not mentioned in verse at all this happened to you because you are arabic ignorant

  101. Reliance of the Traveller, a standard Islamic law reference text certified by Al-Azhar, the chief center of Islamic and Arabic learning in the world, supports extreme discrimination against women and non-Muslims:

    From page 590 of The Reliance of the Traveller/Umdat Al-Salik:

    The indemnity [compensation for damages] for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.

    The indemnity for a Jew or a Christian is one-third the indemnity paid for a Muslim.

    The indemnity for a Zoroastrian [the Persian pre-Islamic religion, to which some Iranians still adhere] is one-fifteenth of that of a Muslim.

    From the back cover of Reliance of the Traveller:

    "There is no doubt that this translation is a valuable and important work, whether as a textbook for teaching Islamic jurisprudence to English speakers, or as a legal reference for use by scholars, educated laymen, and students in this language."
    - Dr. Taha Jabir al-Alwani, president of the International Institute of Islamic Thought

    The back cover also says the book

    …is the first translation of a standard Islamic legal reference in a European language to be certified by Al-Azhar, the Muslim world's oldest institution of higher learning. It presents an explanative interpretation of Umdat al-Salik, a classic Sunni manual of Sacred law…

    ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

  102. On page 547 (814 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, Muhammad permits a threat of beheading to force a conversion to Islam:

    He [Muhammad] said: "Woe to you Abu Sufyan, isn't it time that you recognize that I am God's apostle?" He [Sufyan] answered, "As to that I still have some doubt." I [Ibn Abbas] said to him [Sufyan], "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God before you lose your head," so he [Sufyan] did so.

  103. On page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, Muhammad agrees with Abu jahl that those who do not follow Muhammad will be "slaughtered":

    Abu jahl said to them: "Muhammad alleges that if you follow him you will be kings of the Arabs and the Persians. Then after death you will be raised to gardens like those of the Jordan. But if you do not follow him you will be slaughtered, and when you are raised from the dead you will be burned in the fire of hell." The apostle [Muhammad] came out to them with a handful of dust saying: "I do say that."

  104. You did not answer my question at the later part of the comment, i hope you go back to read it. The you know something Ali sina, the human mind makes decisions based on the knowledge level of that individual, as you know, some time ago, the planets were said to be Nine, i am sure if any religious book had said 8 before the discovery that pluto is non-existent, i am sure you would have written a lenghty article to disproove such a book. My point is simple the human mind and the decisions it makes is a function of the knowledge available. what if the decision one is making or assertion one is making is based on an infromation that would be proofed in the near future to wrong?

  105. Bernard Lewis, eminent scholar of Islam and the Middle East, says the overwhelming majority of uses of the word "jihad" in Islam's core texts are military in meaning

    He writes on page 72 of his book The Political Language of Islam, that

    …the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists, and traditionalists [Muslim specialists in the Qur'an, hadiths, life of Muhammad, and Islamic law] … understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense.

    Lewis also writes, on page 31 of his book The Crisis of Islam, that

    For most of the fourteen centuries of recorded Muslim history, jihad was most commonly interpreted to mean armed struggle for the defense or advancement of Muslim power.

  106. In Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said,"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Various other canonical hadiths attest that Muhammad called for death to those who leave Islam. That's why even today all the schools of Islamic law prescribe death for apostasy from Islam.Check out these links to news stories, and also these links to news stories about people being killed for daring to leave Islam. And many, many more such stories have been reported in the global media.

    A December 2010 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy from Islam: in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).

  107. "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them."

    – Muhammad's companion and pupil Abu Ad-Darda talking, as quoted by Ibn Kathir, the Muslim world's most respected Qur'an expositor.

    <span style="background-color: #cabaa9;">The Qur'an says Muslims must not be friends with non-Muslims, except as a pretense to guard against the unbelievers.</span></div>

    For example, Qur'an 3:28

    Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

    In what follows, the Muslim world's most respected Quran expositor of all time, Ibn Kathir, alternates between quoting Qur'an verses about friendship with non-Muslims, and explaining those verses:

    The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers
    Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,
    And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way[Qur'an 3:28]

    meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

    O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them,

    until,

    And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path. [Qur'an 60:1].

    Allah said,

    O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves [Qur'an 4:144],

    and,

    O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.[Qur'an 5:51].

    Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin [those who emigrated with Muhammad from Mecca to Medina], Ansar [citizens from Medina who helped Muhammad] and Bedouins,

    And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption. [Qur'an 8:73].

    Allah said next [in Qur'an 3:28, which many Islamic scholars say was produced after the above verse, 8:73]

    unless you indeed fear a danger from them

    meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari [compiler of the most canonical hadith collection] recorded that Abu Ad-Darda [a companion and pupil of Muhammad] said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah [or taqqiyah, deception on behalf of Islam] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection."

    "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." A deception "allowed until the Day of Resurrection." Thus you have Ibn Kathir, the greatest mainstream Islamic authority, explaining a mainstream pious Islamic idea of "friendship" with non-believers.

  108. A proposition is either true or false. People with lower intellectual capacity can never decide one way or the other and will sit on the fence on almost everything.

    The difference between me and those with whom you compare me is that their certainty is based on faith and mine on facts. I have researched Islam like I would research any other subject. Those others believe blindly and stopped their rational thinking. I reject Islam because I can prove it. What evidence Muslims have in favor of Islam except that Muhammad said so?

    If you read my book you will throw all the garbage you had read about Islam. I have made this religion so clear to understand that anyone can become an instant expert on it.

  109. Check out these bar charts from the international human rights organization Freedom House. The bar chart for the Middle East/North Africa — the core Islamic region — shows it to be the most unfree area in the world.

  110. In a core Islamic text, Muhammad says there is to be no punishment for murdering someone who insults him

    From Sunan Abu-Dawud, a canonical hadith collection:
    Book 38, Number 4348:

    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

    A blind man had a slave-mother [a slave who bore children for him] who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He [the blind man] forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he [the blind man] took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

    He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

    He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

    Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

    Another canonical hadith:

    Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4349:

    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

    A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

  111. In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says your "lives and property" are not safe from him unless you become a Muslim

    In Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two most canonical hadith collections:

    Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:

    Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

    Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

    Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5917:

    …Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people? Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah.

  112. The funny thing is there is a similarity in their way of argument and yours, Its either all or non, its either true or false….just check this up when your free. .http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/
    Islam is a religion. You just cant help it. The fact that you hate it is because you choose to base its understanding on it on hearsay which and mistranslations. and that, you can only help yourself. I have always wanted to ask you this questions, You said you were a shia before you left islam for good, before your mind faced the bold truth that islam in a monster religion, How come you hardly quote sources from shia sources which you where familiar with, you rather chose to quote from Sunni sources(i do know that both sources contain contradictory stories and funny stories like that of KARBALA). WHY?

  113. Thanks Man/Woman

  114. And what waidriboohunna mean other then beat them? Hunna which means them is in feminine form. At the beginning of the verse we read the Muhammad is talking about women and not she camels or bitches.

  115. You never said it, but that is what Muhammad, the man that Muslims are told to emulate did in Mecca. Ibn Ishaq says, “When the apostle openly displayed Islam as God ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that they took great offence and revolted unanimously to treat him as an enemy.” [Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasoul Allâh p. 118]

  116. I said Know Arabic because there about three translators i know, Not authorirised by any sunni or Shiite, i mean sectarian authorization of the Quran so that's what i stand for.As for Arabic Mambo Jumbo, when people refuse to accept issues they boast about their knowledge of the language. I was not wrong because i have reference to Arabic translators who used egg as the meaning.The issue is simple whether you go with egg or spread you will be right. Its not a criterion…You cant help it, that is what God ordained, i have seen Good muslims who have a firm believe in God and do good deeds and they can bare read the Arabic letters, whereas there Arabs who read the Quran in their very language but are fornicators, Thieves, wife snatchers, frauds.

  117. Your concept of family is very flawed. Every individual is free. No one’s views is another person’s business. No one should compromise his views just because his family, clan, community or nation does not approve it. This is dictatorship of the majority and is one of the diseased of Islam.

    Amr be ma’roof and nahi min al monkar is madness. It is the recipe for fascism and cultic thinking. Islam is a fascistic cult and that is why such law exists. Every individual must be free to think on his or her own and live as they please.

    You seem to have forgotten Muhammad’s instruction.

    9:23,
    O ye who believe! take not for awlia (friends and protectors) your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

    Quran 4:89
    They long that you should disbelieve and become like them. Let not the believers take unbelievers for friends or helpers. If any do that, they will not be helped by Allah.

    Do you know that Muhammad even encourages his followers to kill their own parents if they try to dissuade them to leave Islam?

  118. I want you to know dramaniEdem that I have been reading your comments about this topic here. And I learned and I enjoyed. It was interesting what you said about Bin Baaz and his influence even in 1975. And it was enjoyable to read about the philosophers who knew the earth was not flat.

    I can also clearly see, what I did not know before, that you are willing to discuss quite passionately with (other) Muslims. Of course I respect you for that.

  119. Oh come on . . you seek legitimacy to your cause . . . in return for a hocus pocus of debate.

    Something that you sorely lack . . . Academic you couldn't get . . . so you you're trying it on.

  120. dramaniEdem

    Calm down . . . the fact is – you were wrong.

    - – -

    "as a matter of fact it was never a criterion for understanding the Quran! "

    How can it not be . . . ? Else you rely on others.

    - – -

    "than other translators. who had several research done!"

    The ones you hold up haven't that is the whole point. Else . . . where is the evidence for it?

    - – -

    "Do you think its only on flat surfaces that you spread things? You can spread things over every surface! "

    That is WHAT I have been saying . . it would have been nice – if you had not ASSUMED things.

    - – -

    "Both ways it still make sense, you can come up will another Arabic mambo jumbo just reject it."

    WHat do you mean Arabic mumbo – jumbo.

    When it was in your favour . . you were advising me to know Arabic – when you it isn't you are calling it mumbo-jumbo?

    I didn't give any mumbo-jumbo – I just gave you and explained what that Verse is saying . . . are you calling that mumbo-jumbo?

    - – -

    You shouldn't be quick to jump the gun . . . and start spreading the hate.

  121. Where did you get the idea that I care about what Muslims believe? I have dedicated the last 14 year of my life attacking their belief. Of concourse this hurts them. Do I look like I am sorry? They are hurt by their own ignorance. Those who get over this hurt come out of this lie and feel liberated. We have no control over how people react to what we say and hence that should not be our concern.

    There are always things people say that I find offensive, so what? Should I demand them to shut up because their views offend me? If it is offensive I don’t listen. But I have no right to ask others not to say what they believe to be true because that is offensive to me.

    “Your opinion is offensive to me so you should not say it” is a stupid statement. The answer is get over it. No one has the right to silence another person for expressing his views. Look at the forums in my sites. People come here and insult me in my own site and I never censor them. If that is all they can say, let them say it.

    You Muslims must understand that you are not the center of the universe and other people are not required to submit to you. If what others say offends you, just ignore them and move on.

  122. Keep boasting of your Arabic knowledge! its very common of you Guys! guess what even if the Quran is in Arabic, it does not automatically mean you will be guided by it! Nor will you understand it, as a matter of fact it was never a criterion for understanding the Quran! so dont be quick to say because you understand Arabic you undeerstand better! than other translators. who had several research done! even if you say its spread, Do you think its only on flat surfaces that you spread things? You can spread things over every surface! the Earth crust which is about 30miles deep was 'spread' on the other layers of the earth. Both ways it still make sense, you can come up will another Arabic mambo jumbo just reject it. I rest my case

  123. The one thing I want to do is respond to your challenge and not evade them.

    Examples: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics
    to begin with

    Yes, I can see that JihadWatch and MEMRI TV are prejudiced, but by the same token of course in Islamic countries the press is prejudiced and often political-correct press is ignoring evidence. And you see Jihadwatch and MEMRI TV seem to me stakeholders in defending and even expanding peacefully Democratic laws, values and human rights.

    I mention to you jonmc, who wrote some very knowledgeable articles on FFI, and I can mention some JihadWatchposters, such as traeh, Kinana of Khaybar, Lemonlime, who all regularly show much evidence of what Islamic texts mean and mean to achieve. And of what Muslims, authoritative or not, intend.

    Well, look, Amin, if what I or others present is only evidence of a few, so too the evidence presented of the opposite views are but of a few.
    Many of us do have fear of Islam, we do see threats, danger from a part of Islam and Muslims. No way around it.

    Also our fears have been fed by lots and lots of indications, proofs, clues.

    And under those circumstances we need proof of safety. Until then: Islam can be dangerous, to us, until proven safe, to us.

  124. The what do you agree with him on . . . he is a hatemonger and nothing more.

  125. "No! once you cross that line, the entire Muslim world must be erased. We should reduce you to the stone age. "

    Is that why you have no QUALMS about drone attacks . . carpet bombs . . and etc.

    - – -

    "Why don't you think nuking the non-Muslim wold is disgusting and retaliating against the Muslims is disgusting? "

    Hang . . how do you know what I think?

    I don't think anyone should NUKING anyone . . . live and let live.

    West can live in peace – and do what ever . . . Muslims should improve themselves and also live in peace.

    - – -

    "I have all the proof and evidence to convince you. "

    I have YOUR book . . . it is NO truth . . . It has MISTAKES all over it . . .

    . . . it more or less Bullshit . . . like I said . . . not even an ounce of Academic worth.

    Then there are YOUR disgusting views. . . My God they are EVIL!

    - – -

    Then there are YOUR strange lies . . . all over these comments.

    - – -

    "But if you choose to ignore that and then go on nuking us, we must end your existence. Why is it disgusting."

    Because NO ONE IS NUKING YOU!

    - – - –

    "Damn it. You people have no brain. If humanity is to survive let it be the good part of it not the diseased part of it. Why should we let you exterminate us and sit silent?"

    huh? Again – NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO THE WEST . . . IT IS DOING THE DAMAGE . . . . THE DEATH TOLL AND THE DESTRUCTION SAYS IT ALL.

    AND IT ISNT VERY GOOD AT IT. . .

    THEY GOING TO DRAW WITH THE AFGHANS

    . . . .

    USA COULD NOT WIN OUTRIGHT – VERSUS THE AFGHANS . . . THE RUSSIANS DID NOT MANAGE IT . . . THE BRITISH DIDN'T

    USA AND ALL ITS POWER AND ALLIES HAVEN'T.

    - – -

    "Whether I say it nor not this is what is going to happen. Once you cross that line,the instinct of self preservation will kick in and even the stupid leftists will start butchering you in the street. "

    kILLING INNOCENT – IS KILLING THE INNOCENT . .

    you just don't see the divide.

    You are hate monger . . . that is PRETTY evident.

    - – -

    "Get that silly dream out of your mind. Once you nuke a city in the west, your Islamic world will be nuked. These games of who done it, who is innocent and who is not will be thrown out of the window. This will happen because it is human nature, not because I say it. "

    Then why don't you concentrate on what YOU say . . .

    . . . . not any supposed wars . . . "I don’t see Muslims as innocent people. They are all guilty as sin. "

    You say this irrespective of any "nuking".

    And that is what HATE MONGERING is . . . that is how HITLER dehumanized the Jews.

    - – -

  126. Agree with you. So being against Islam has nothing to do with racism. Just so that that is clear.

  127. "Yes Islam has a central authority and that is Muhammad. Muslims quote him. It is him who said all the egregious things. "

    Look at how you twist things . . . you know perfectly well what I said was true. Yet! One more instance of . . . fiddling with the truth.

  128. "It is permissible to deceive Muslims, specially if that is the only way you can save your life and live in peace."

    There you go . . . more example of hate. What this means is – he doesn't have to be TRUTHFUL in what he writes and claims . . .

    Hence his disastrous book. Where employs such tactics.

  129. Thanks for asking, no, sorry, I do not think Islam is correct. But more importantly; correct or not, will it threathen our beloved democratic society?

    I come from something positive, to me. I love full democracy and science (hence my pseudonym dem sci. Democracy is the most important, that is what I guard.

    My family was and still partly is Christian but I am Darwinist.

    OK, that said; well, I do notice the growing awareness of Islam by ordinary citizens. Unlike Ali Sina I like Daniel Pipes. And a short while ago he upped his hopes for the saving of democracy in Europe. Until then he had been expecting Islam to win in "Eurabia" but now he saw that anti-Islam-movements were growing faster than the percentage of Muslims in Europe. So who knows Ali Sina had something to do with this.

    Also Spengler, David Goldman, a Jew, pointed out that Islamic birthrates are plummeting around the world, and coming to rest almost at the same rate as the birthrates of Westerners, Russians, Chinese and Indian Hindus.

  130. It pains me, but no, I do not say this and I do not agree with Ali Sina on this.

  131. \”Also note – Islam does not have central authority that has to be followed.:\”

    Yes Islam has a central authority and that is Muhammad. Muslims quote him. It is him who said all the egregious things.

  132. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 4 August 2012, 6:02 pm

    "entire Muslim world must be erased"
    lol

  133. I meant I can respect highly knowledgeable Islam-scholars. I am even in favor of them when it can be assured that it is they who are in charge and they can asked all sorts of questions and it is they who have the final authority.

    Now there is so much confusion and lack of authority among Muslims. For instance you have a commenter, a Quran-Only-Muslima Dramani-Edem, who explains here what Islam is and is not, wants and wants not. But I think a full-blown Islamic scholar would disagree with her on quite a few points.

  134. Why is it disgusting? This is self defense. Do you think after you Muslim nuked New York and killed several millions we should wait and play cat and mouse while you nuke London,and then Paris, and so on? No! once you cross that line, the entire Muslim world must be erased. We should reduce you to the stone age.

    Why don’t you think nuking the non-Muslim wold is disgusting and retaliating against the Muslims is disgusting?

    You have your chance now. End this insanity. Learn the truth about Muhammad. That man was a criminal cult leader. He was no prophet of any god,but the messenger of Satan. I have all the proof and evidence to convince you. But if you choose to ignore that and then go on nuking us, we must end your existence. Why is it disgusting. This is survival. If you kill us, we must kill you before you succeed exterminating us. Explain why it is wrong?

    You Muslims are so morally degenerate that see nothing wrong in verses that say, kill the unbelievers wherever you find them and cast terror into their hearts, but cry foul if someone say we should retaliate.

    Damn it. You people have no brain. If humanity is to survive let it be the good part of it not the diseased part of it. Why should we let you exterminate us and sit silent?

    Whether I say it nor not this is what is going to happen. Once you cross that line,the instinct of self preservation will kick in and even the stupid leftists will start butchering you in the street.

    It is important to say it and say it forcefully that should you cross the line, we will act and will send you back to stone ages. If the choice is between you killing us and we killing you, we will not hesitate to kill you. When the language is clear, Muslims may think twice before committing that insanity. Although I doubt even that works. Ahmadinejad thinks in order for the Mahdi to come two third of mankind must perish.

    Get that silly dream out of your mind. Once you nuke a city in the west, your Islamic world will be nuked. These games of who done it, who is innocent and who is not will be thrown out of the window. This will happen because it is human nature, not because I say it.

    My whole purpose is to stop this Islamic insanity before it is too late.

  135. " i am giving you a link of several translations both supporting and otherwise. there are other translators, Arabic translators who translated it as an egg, i am not the only one who thinks its EGG shaped"

    And where did they get this "egg" meaning from?

    Edip is an idiot – and unqualified. His transaltion has absolutely no meaning whatsoever

    - – -

    "you are rather choosing sides with the flat earth translation"

    huh? How is that? Unlike you I know my Arabic . . . all Arabs translate this as to widen . . . who the hell are you?

    Where is your evidence?

    - – -

    You cannot simply INVENT your own meanings from thin air. . . .

    Here is reference to see what Daha means

    Hans Wehr – Page 273.

    There are PDFs of it about –
    http://kalamullah.com/learning-arabic.html

  136. No, no, I do not. But… I can respect them. And let them honestly explain what it is that they want for society, for the rights of women, the rights of infidels under Islamic law etc.

    And when Robert Spencer and some Islamologists, who do come a long way on your list, but perhaps not with EVERYTHING,

    when they point out to us that these scholars want something of a different, rather more totalitarian society and have different views on human rights, which they also already effect in Islamis societies,

    then we are glad that we have those Islamologists and Islam-watchers, who together with us are stakeholders of our precious democratic society.

  137. Ali Sina stop pretending you have not come across the verse that says only open minded people would understand the Quran not those who study it to find faults, They will never understand it, The Qur'an mentions that the Multiple meaning verses are known only by God and those firm in knowledge. Since God is the teacher of the Quran. i will not explain further since you don't even believe in a god. Easy to understand for open minded people and difficult to understand for those who seek nothing in it but to find faults……
    3:7 He is the One who sent down to you the
    book, from which there are definite
    signs; they are the essence of the book;
    and others, which are multiple-meaning.
    As for those who have disease in their
    hearts, eager to cause confusion and
    eager to derive their interpretation, they
    will follow what is multiple-meaning
    from it. But none knows their meaning
    except God and those who are well
    founded in knowledge; they say, "We
    acknowledge it, all is from our Lord."
    *
    I will like to ask you one question Mr. Ali Do you believe in spirit beings? when i get your response i have something to share with you

  138. "You admit the last word is Ha, why do you still say it is DaHaWa? Dahaha root meaning is an egg, why do you find it so difficult to understand? Trying to use Arabic grammer to confuse the readers? "

    That is a separate word – it is the pronoun and object of the verb.

    The original word is دحو however due it being a weak letter it gets transmuted in to and alif – hence becoming دحا .

    - – -

    "Dahaha root meaning is an egg"

    There is NO dictionary that I have come across that says this . . . else give the evidence.

    And if it is a link – then paste link. Don't paste LARGE chunks!

    - – - –

    "why do you find it so difficult to understand? "

    I don't – you are wrong and that is all.

  139. "You see your weak attampts to lie?"

    Lie about what? And for what reason?

    - – -

    " i gave you that evidence and to dodge it craftily you chose to call it copy and paste"

    It was that long – why didn't you simply paste the link . . . and told me to read it?

    I read your other comment – which did have a link there – to the wiki page.

    - – -

    "You gave me a link of people who support a flat earth arguement"

    I did no such thing. . . please stop making such petty accusations.

    - – -

    "And for ibn baz dropping it, that is never my point, my point is at that point, every Sunni Muslim is suppose to accept it or the fatwa holds, what i was trying to get across to you is the influence of clerics on believes and possibly translations. "

    huh? Where did you get that from . . . not only do you not know your Arabic. You are not very knowledgeable about Islam either.

    All fatwas are considered to be non-binding – no one has to belief a single fatwa – if they dont want. Only state in some issue can . . . in state matters. . . and not in personal beliefs.

    = = = =

    "there is no DAHAWA as you claim its Dahaha."

    The root word for Da Ha – Aa is actually Da-Ha-Wa. Because it is a weak letter – it is changed to Da Ha Aa – in the past 3rd person masculine form.

    Hence the verb is د ح ا and joined up دحا

    The extra Ha ها is the pronoun . . . meaning "it/she" and refers back to the Earth – and serves as the object of the verb.

    I know what i am talk about – take what I said to any Arabic speaker and they will tell you the same thing.

    Check in dictionaries. . . . . Hans Wehr, Lanes Lexicon, Al Mawrid.
    http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/

    Lanes Lexicon – easily the best of them.

    - – -

  140. KnowTheTruth, you blame even muslims who have never heard of the word taqiyya with the act! i am sure if a search query is issued, that would be one of the most repeatitive word here and faithfreedom.org. i got to know what it actually means from your very website. Please you don't accuse everybody of being an alcoholic because the person comes from a city where alcohol is brewed!

  141. I study history. I pondered over the mistakes of the Quriash and the Jews and thought about what they could have done to not lose to Muhammad. They committed two major strategic mistakes. The most important of all was not to recognize the enemy in time. This is the same mistake the non-Muslim world is committing today. And that is why I speak so there is awakening. Know your enemy, said Sun Zi. The other mistake was that they waged a clean opposition to Muhammad whereas he used deception against them. This created an imbalance which led to Muhammad’s victory. Again this was another Sun Zi’s teaching that they ignored. Sun Zi said war is deception. Muhammad learned that lesson, he even quoted this phrase on numerous occasions. Sun Zi’s teachings were spread through Asia and were repeated by storyteller. When Muhammad heard it he took it to heart and applied it.

    It is permissible to deceive Muslims, specially if that is the only way you can save your life and live in peace. I can see no other use for it. We are not waging a physical war against Muslims and I don’t recommend such wars. They don’t work, not only from a moral point of view, but also from a strategic point of view.

  142. Muslims terrorist don’t fall from the sky. They are bred and raised in Islamic communities. There is a whole machinery that makes them terrorist.
    • The general hatred of the non-Muslims, particularly the Jews, even among those who have never seen a Jew in their entire life,
    • The Islamic literature
    • The media in Muslim world
    • The mosques
    • The parents
    • The schools
    • The Muslim intellectuals and thinkers
    All these work hand in hand to produce a terrorist. So the concept of innocent Muslim is really absurd. A terrorist is nurtured by the Umma, just as a fruit is nourished by the tree. It is the whole machinery of Islam, including those Muslims who give lip service to anti-terrorism that bring forth the terrorists. Without this “innocent” Muslims the terrorists would have existed. Everything in Islam including people like Holland C. Tylor must be condemned and rejected. This deception must end. Just as a peaceful version of Nazism is not acceptable, so also a peaceful version of Islam is an absurdity. If you can find a perfumed excrement, then you can have a moderate Islam.

    We have to be very clear. Islam has not place in the civilized world. We must reject it in all its forms and interpretations.

  143. "The Quran claims to be a clearly written book, easy to understand. "

    And it also says . .. it is an ARABIC book. Selective aren't you. What doesn't go with your view point – simply ignoring it is logically fallacious.

    - – -

    "Ordinary Muslims, can easily see Islam is a lie just by reading my book or articles. "

    Meaning – anyone with half a brain will be able to see your lies and inaccuracies . . . that is why you don't speak about this disaster:
    http://alisina.org/is-islam-for-all-mankind/

  144. "Forget about Arabic, strive to gain some commonsense. "

    Is that why you have no Academic standings . . . . and seek legitimacy and notoriety in other ways . . . it must be galling to think – even Ibn Warraq managed it.

  145. "Any why one should be an Arabic scholar to understand Islam? "

    To understand its foremost books at a PRIMARY level. . . else you are always at a disadvantage.

    - – -

    "You Muslims get drowned in a cup of coffee."

    Wow! The hate monger at it again . . . what remarkably perceptive remark. Your best yet.

    - – -

    "It is not that complicated to see Muhammad was an impostor. "

    Is that why in your dear little book – you failed to get his children name wrong?

    - – -

    "Forget about Arabic, strive to gain some commonsense. "

    You – yourself are ignorant of the language – and are telling your followers too . . .

    "gain some commonsense"

    This is meaningless . . . if only it was that easy! Where does one acquire . . .this common sense?

  146. The Quran claims to be a clearly written book, easy to understand. What you say is an excuse. It is called red herring. You are stuck and can\’t refute the arguments presented against Islam and therefore say once must be a scholar of Arabic, literature, grammar, etc. None of that is required. All you need is a bit of commonsense. Yes the knowledge of Sira, hadiths and the Quran helps.The more you dig into these sources the more you see Islam is nothing but the delusional thinking of a mentally sick man. However, they are not essential, unless you want to be a scholar. Ordinary Muslims, can easily see Islam is a lie just by reading my book or articles.

  147. @ knowTheEnemy

    Which words are you going to hide behind now?

  148. "I said there are two categories of Muslims, then ones who know Islam and practice it, which we call them terrorist"

    Like I said . . . those who project the Islam what you think Islam should be [a near match anyway] . . . rest you think don't.

    But it isn't really up to you.

    - – -

    "and the ones who are ignorant of Islam and project their own image of what a good religion should be on Islam. "

    The get out close. . . . It doesn't work like that. And you know it. . . your book is proof of that.

    - – -

    " When facts are presented and Muslims still deny them, this is willful ignorance and I see no innocence in that. "

    What you are saying here is . . . those who either object to your fraudulent and bogus claims . . .

    Hence anyone who doesn't agree with your VERSION of Islam . . . ending up that ALL Muslims are guility. . .

    Hence you do not distinguish between Muslims at all.

    - – -

    See knowTheEnemy – your Master has come to dispute you!

    - – -

    " The willfully ignorant Muslims are the facilitators and accomplices of the terrorist Muslims. Yes they are guilty. "

    That is HATE . . . and NOTHING MORE.

    Illogical and VENGEFUL hate . . . Similar to Nazism.

  149. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 4 August 2012, 4:43 pm

    Two categories you mean moderate and extremist ?

  150. Any why one should be an Arabic scholar to understand Islam? All you need is a bit of commonsense, in any language. You Muslims get drowned in a cup of coffee. It is not that complicated to see Muhammad was an impostor. Forget about Arabic, strive to gain some commonsense.

  151. I said there are two categories of Muslims, the ones who know Islam and practice it, which we call them terrorists, and the ones who are ignorant of Islam and project their own image of what a good religion should be on Islam.

    It is arguable whether ignorance can be equated to innocence. If you believe innocence and ignorance are the same, then these Muslims are innocent. Even then that innocence will end the moment ignorance becomes willful. When facts are presented and Muslims still deny them, this is willful ignorance and I see no innocence in that. The willfully ignorant Muslims are the facilitators and accomplices of the terrorist Muslims. Yes they are guilty.

  152. "you can help yourself by getting an Arabic Quran so you check it up! its DAHAHA, if you don't understand Arabic"

    I don't think you know the Arabic language. Dahaha is two words Daha – and Ha is separate – it is the pronoun as object of the verb.

    Check dictioanry for example – Hans Wher – Al Mawrid or lanes. . .

    even http://www.almaany.com

    - – -

    "please, stop your insincere game"

    Calm down – and look it up. You will find I am right

  153. "Please do you know arabic at all?"

    Yes I do – contrary to you.

    - – -

    " The last letter is a HA no Wa as you claim, stop lying please 79:30 reads in Arabic as dahaha"

    I have NO CAUSE to lie. . .

    والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها

    This reads word by word:

    And the Earth after that he spread it

    والأرض – And the Earth
    بعد – after
    ذلك that
    دحاها – He spread it

    دحاها – this two word

    دحا – he spread, extend , widened

    and

    ها – means "it/her "- it the pronoun – refers back to the earth. Here it is the object of the verb.

    - – -

    "if you have decided to blind yourself to even what you eyes can see, then i dont know if you are truly human."

    The thing is you don't know Arabic. Stop this – and look it up.

    - – - –
    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=79

    - – - –

    Rest – seems like unrelated copy and paste.

    But according to his followers – Bin Baaz – did drop his flat earth theory.

  154. I replied directly from my mail, and i noticed that the Arabic words did not show here correctly, you can help yourself by getting an Arabic Quran so you check it up! its DAHAHA, if you don't understand Arabic, then Google transliteration of the verse please, stop your insincere game. and for other interpretations of the quran, use this link: http://quranix-org.19.org/?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA

  155. "You are projecting your own nature on me Amin. "

    hardly . . . my projections are well backed up. . . for example the little trouble you are having with stating your name and religion?

    Things like that are quite self-evident.

  156. "You think I am a dimwit, yet you spend hours responding to my comments. Says more about YOU than me! "

    You just make me look good!

    - – -

    "Really! You can conclude anything that fits your agenda, out of anything. That's what your specialty really is! "

    Again – lacking of any perceptive analysis as example. Who do you think buys your BS?

    - – -

    You bring down every debate to you level . . . they all finish with your rantings or insults. . . .

  157. "There you go! I guess a Muslim brain can only think of how others are allying with the enemy and conspiring. But that is not your fault. You revere Muhammad, and he used to be the same way. "

    The thing is – you have NOT said anything – that contradicts what I said. . . .

    – - –

    " I guess a Muslim brain can only think of how others are allying with the enemy"

    Then there is the PREJUDICE, HATE and STEREOTYPING.

    - – -

    You are nothing more than a hate monger . . . look your own contradictory comments say it.

  158. "Dr. Sina has said again and again that he differentiates between extremist Muslims and ignorant Muslims! "

    No he doesn't – according to him ALL Muslims are guilty. Where does he say otherwise?

    - – -

    "Islam is different! We can’t allow an ideology that will trash the VERY constitution that gives the freedom in the first place."

    huh? See that is why your Bullshit never works . . . read what you said above and now what you are saying . . .

    THINK! Before commenting. You even contradict yourself mid-comment.

    - – -

    " With such a dangerous political ideology, the RIGHT thing to do is to oppose it, even better to suppress it, best to completely eradicate it. "

    Right – in other word i was 100% Right. As per usual!

  159. "FFI on the other hand speaks the truth, that no one wants to hear. "

    Ha ha ha . . . you do come up with some ridiculous things to say.

  160. Presidential candidates are after money and power. They tell people what they want to hear. They don't necessarily speak the truth. FFI on the other hand speaks the truth, that no one wants to hear. That is why there is so little money.

  161. lol. Maybe you should go to some sikh websites and tell them all these things that you know about Guru Nanak. Who knows, maybe you will be able to convince sikhs into becoming Muslims.

  162. May I have your attention everybody . This is world renown Islamic scholar Ali Sina the Islamic version of Bart Ehrman is going to expose the fake religion of Ilslam and help free many Muslims . Ali Sina crendentiels on Arabic the language of Koran is BIG ZERO LOL . so good luck with your big scholar LOL

  163. But in Western countries there are now non-Muslims Islamologists, specialist in Islamic teachings, practices, and they can be very good in interpreting and explaining the Quran

    We decide who are expert in Islam and not the ignorants . To be specialist in Islam you have to be scholars on so many fields

    scholar of Arabic grammar
    scholar of Arabic archaic
    scholar of Arabic litterature
    scholar of Arabic elequency
    scholar of Tafsir
    Schoar of hadiths
    scholar of Islamic thelogy
    scholar of early Islamic history dealing with Muhamed biography Sira

    before to be alloewd to study all these fields you have to take an entrance examen to the university which is memorization of the whole koran by heart .

    do you know any non Muslim who knows all these above ????

  164. dramaniEdem – sorry but you are showing your self up.

    "The Arabic word dahaha comes from root dahy"

    First of all – there is no word DAHAHA – it composition of Da-Ha-Wa and "Ha" is the attached pronoun.

    Also the root is – Da-Ha-Wa

    - – -

    "which means egg."

    As far as I know – it doesn't.

    - – -

    "Though the roundness of the earth was known by philosophers before the revelation of the Quran"

    such as?

    - – -

    " Therefore, almost all the commentators of the Quran tried to interpret the word
    so that they could save their flat earth from being curved."

    Again simply not true – else – evidence?

    - – -

    " "and after that He spread the earth"! "

    That is what it means – according to all known dictionaries. Atleast the ones I have seen.

  165. The only problem is that Dahraba – does not mean – "separate".

    Else – evidence?

  166. Demsci. I was referring to 'case closed' in a figure of speech sense and not in it's literal sense.

    My point of the comments from Ali Sina was to show you there is no misunderstanding here of his views and agenda. It is clear for everyone to see.

    Forget 10 and 20 years, let's keep it open for 100 years, way past our lifetimes.

    And no, I don't see Ali Sina as a danger or threat to Islam. I see him as a deluded fool who is a danger to himself more than anyone else in the first instance. People like him have been banging the anti Islamic drum for over 1400 years.

    I have stated in previous posts and I will state again, exactly what has he achieved and how many Muslims has he brought out of bondage since 1994?

    Since his rhetoric began, Islam has grown. What does that tell you? Either his formula is not working or Islam is correct?

    What would you say?

  167. “If any city in the West is nuked I am 100% for nuking tens of cities in Islamic countries. I don’t see Muslims as innocent people. They are all guilty as sin. It is not necessary to be part of al Qaida to be guilty. If you are a Muslim you agree with Muhammad and that is enough evidence against you.”

    This is DISGUSTING and disturbing thing to say.

    Logically & Morally wrong. . . do you Demsci – also say this and agree with Sina?

  168. "Well, there is on FFI, Jihad Watch, MEMRI TV an endless report on what authoritative Muslims say and do, and what motivates them in Islamic scriptures. "

    What MEMRI regularly churns out is highly selective – and mostly by extremists.

    How does that equal to: "authoritative Muslims say and do"

    Jihadwatch and MEMRI – are both biased. They do not equate to independent academic studies.

    - – -

    "And there you can see that what Ali Sina and Robert Spencer et al are saying that Muslims say/ hold as doctrine is broadcast AS Islamic tenets. "

    No . . . just what SOME Muslims say. There are more than 1.5billion Muslims – of many nationalities and languages.

    Also note – Islam does not have central authority that has to be followed. All fatwas are non-binding.

    - – -

    "There are also pew opinion polls published that show the attitude of Muslims on issues, like deathpenalty for apostates, a highly anti-democratic law and attitude. "

    Such as . . . examples?

    - – -

    "So in that respect it is the same what both some authoritative Muslims and large sections of Muslims say and what Ali Sina and Robert Spencer et al report. "

    Not good enough . . . how do you know what large sections of Muslims are saying . . . by presenting evidence of a few?

    Logically fallacious?

    - – - –

    "And people keep tabs on what both authoritative Muslims and what polls among Muslims do tell us here, like Jonmc. "

    Who the hell is Jonmc?

    - – -

  169. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 4 August 2012, 1:00 pm

    Your strategy against Muslims is someway similar to Iranians against west Fanaticism, Taqiyyaa

    You approve degradation of morals[ Apostates must deceive Muslims, With the media and government in our power (where is truth media and govt lol ) ] in your war but criticize opponent for the same . Isn't so girly baby?

  170. You force me to be as subtle as I can and pronounce exactly what I mean.

    Well, there is on FFI, Jihad Watch, MEMRI TV an endless report on what authoritative Muslims say and do, and what motivates them in Islamic scriptures.

    For instance what is the verdict on reacting to apostasy. And there you can see that what Ali Sina and Robert Spencer et al are saying that Muslims say/ hold as doctrine is broadcast AS Islamic tenets.

    There are also pew opinion polls published that show the attitude of Muslims on issues, like deathpenalty for apostates, a highly anti-democratic law and attitude.

    So in that respect it is the same what both some authoritative Muslims and large sections of Muslims say and what Ali Sina and Robert Spencer et al report.

    I was not saying that they agreed on everything, only that they agreed on some Islamic tenets.

    And people keep tabs on what both authoritative Muslims and what polls among Muslims do tell us here, like Jonmc.

  171. Not case closed, I want it to be open for the next 10 or 20 years.

    I can see you see Ali Sina as a danger or threat, though.

    But discuss this, let us find compromises, validate at least some of the criticism upon Islamic teachings and practices from the point of view of outsiders, do NOT TRY TO CLOSE THE DISCUSSION. it will die down of its own accord if people compromise enough. Perhaps.

  172. "Mohammed may have fooled the Muslims, but Ali Sina is fooling the likes of you without an alternative and no scripture, prophethood claims, miracles, magic and so forth."

    He wants Muslims to come out of Islam and into what? Please elaborate."

    I would like nothing better than to elaborate on that!!!.

    There are in this world Better Alternatives To Islam. Which are more true, to those who consider it valuable to go where they can find the highest truth.

    There are political systems that are better than Islams political system, and these are practiced in fully democratic states. However faulty, still better than those prevailing in pure Islamic states. And even the great Ataturk understood this in his time.

    Of course this is only an opinion, but be sure that counter-jihadists can tell you Muslims in many, many details why they prefer the full Democratic system and full human rights over the Islamic political system.

    Althoughs this admittedly is only part of Islam.

  173. "Also, "Yadrib fi al ard" means roam the land or the
    earth……….and "Madarib" means places. "

    "?". . . "!"

  174. "The other day Tony Blair, very experienced politician, said that there is a widespread "narrative" among Muslims, that is against democracies and their political system, that many "Islamists" seek supremacy of Islam, not cooperation. "

    The same Blair? That openly lied about Iraq and WMD's . . . yes. . . Blair was competent politician. However we know the source of his views. . .

    The fact that he converted to Catholicism. . . and his personal motivation for war like Bush was "God".

    - – -

    "To sort this out, it is well that you ask us to not paint all Muslims with the same brush, but equally important that Muslims start to distinguish between themselves. "

    huh? What does this mean?

    - – -

    "And it is in the long run important that Islam-apologists start to validate the complaints of Islam-critics concerning those Muslims who OPENLY say exactly the same as Ali Sina does. "

    NO MUSLIM – SAYS WHAT ALI SINA SAYS? And idiotic comment to make!

    - – -

    "Like Anjem Choudhary; who HAS openly advocated for the Caliphate and who HAS openly rejected the full democratic system. "

    But what has that got to do with Muslims generally? Most DO NOT share his views.

    One thing to note – often those that turn way from Westernism – seem to be extra fanatical!

    Choudhry in his day was Hell-raiser – he sure loved to party! I have always suspected all such claims to faith.

    - – -

    "What I object most to is that other Muslims often do not clearly state their position towards worldwide democracy or some totalitarian Islamic state and do not clearly take sides between democratic citizens and totalitarians. "

    You are being dishonest . . . Millions of Muslims openly state that democratic government is preferable.

    - – -

    "And I respect it from him. Democracy has many flaws and problems. And he may well advocate an alternative for it and over it. "

    I highly doubt – such are his motive – neither does he have the support or the capability.

    The only people on earth that look to improve democracy are the Chinese!

  175. Ali Sina. Your response about not caring who or what your family believes is flawed from the offset. If you don't give a damn about what they believe, then why would you give a damn about nearly 2 billion Muslims practising Islam who have absolutely no relation or connection to you?

    The first point of call for any humanity subscribing individual is their family. Once the family is safe, sound and secure, then one ventures out to the masses. Even the majority of the animal kingdom follows these basic instincts and principles. How you going to convince Muslims to break bond, when you are saying, don't give a toss about your family, just follow me!

    I guarantee, it's only a matter of time before you call yourself a Prophet and the Chosen One.

    You have to have been specifically planted to create discourse, are not Iranian, have never been a Muslim, have never lived in Iran, are not fluent in Arabic, are not a Dr and have a few marbles missing in the upstairs department. You are what we call a bogeyman. There is no other logical explanation considering the evidence.

    Just like Mohammed did not make sense in your eyes, you don't make sense in billion plus peoples eyes.

    Unfortunately, everything thing you say just doesn't make sense. It's contradictory at every turn. You claim to love the Muslims but hate their religion and then hate them, then love them, then hate them, then love them, then hate them, then love them, then hate them, then love the. Make up your bloody mind and stick to it.

    Apart from delusions of grandeur and mythomania, you must be bordering on Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD). I have yet to see someone in my lifetime who acts and talks like you?

    At least I understand where you are coming from now.

    Go get yourself a check up. It's FREE!

  176. I never said that Muslims have the right to insult the belief of their non-Muslim relatives

  177. Also, "Yadrib fi al ard" means roam the land or the
    earth……….and "Madarib" means places.

  178. Demsci. People must be able to choose for themselves. You put the options on the table with the pros and cons and let them decide. Period.

  179. "Right – yet not a single Muslim country has established "caliphate" or has the motivation at large to do so.

    Iran may be the only case in point. Then there are many Muslim groups that are simply apolitical – such as Sufi's.

    Yet you would indiscriminately throw out every single person – who would consider him/herself Muslim in any capacity?""

    What Ali Sina proposes in response can be debated. But please do not be so fast in dismissing what he is saying about Islam as a political ideology. this should be discussed in depth.

    The other day Tony Blair, very experienced politician, said that there is a widespread "narrative" among Muslims, that is against democracies and their political system, that many "Islamists" seek supremacy of Islam, not cooperation.

    To sort this out, it is well that you ask us to not paint all Muslims with the same brush, but equally important that Muslims start to distinguish between themselves.

    And start to divide over questions pertaining to Islam & Democracy.

    And it is in the long run important that Islam-apologists start to validate the complaints of Islam-critics concerning those Muslims who OPENLY say exactly the same as Ali Sina does.

    Like Anjem Choudhary; who HAS openly advocated for the Caliphate and who HAS openly rejected the full democratic system.

    And I respect it from him. Democracy has many flaws and problems. And he may well advocate an alternative for it and over it.

    What I object most to is that other Muslims often do not clearly state their position towards worldwide democracy or some totalitarian Islamic state and do not clearly take sides between democratic citizens and totalitarians.

    Then still only contradict and vilify, discourage but never validate concerned comments by Islam-critics, who are pro-democracy.

  180. "Who do you think pays me?"

    Why. .. the Spencer connection. He can raise money for any good cause. He does have that power and connections.

    'Tis why you sing his praises. . . and crossed over the "ideological" divide. . . without a glance back.

  181. Neither does "Spread it out", expand, extend . . equate to being "flat". . . does it?

    Something can be "spread out" on surface of ANY 2d or 3d shape.

    - – -

    "I am really baffled at how Muslims lie so unabashedly. "

    Yet . . . why do you hold. You have posted a video – that clearly lies when it claims that Quranic commentaries assert a flat earth?
    http://alisina.org/muhammads-flat-earth/

    - – -

    "Where is the sphere or egg shape? Is it possible that all the translators of the Quran actually don’t know Arabic? "

    The root word Da-Ha-Wa – in its etymology refers to an ostrich expending or widening the earth to lay eggs. . . several Arabic dictionaries has the reference.

    Lanes Lexicon – has a brief mention.

    - – -

    However the notion of sphere is "arguable". . . but not with much support. Da-ha-wa – its primiary meaning is to expand or widen something. Translators never go to a secondary (majazi – metaphorical ) meaning without a reason.

  182. Ali, above here you asked a very important question and I commend you for asking it.

    What alternative is there for Islam, which is better than what Muslims already have?!!!

    well, this can and should be much more discussed indeed.

    To begin with, Islam is from 7th century, and it seems political to us. And Democracy as we know it is from the 18th century. This political system has in the opinion of many some distinctive improvements on the political side of Islam. There where the 2 political systems clearly contradict each other.

    And when Muslims grow up in Islam and then live life as Muslims, they indeed love it and they seem to lose a lot that is hard to replace.

    But if a Muslim were to apostasize and raise his/ her children different, the next generations from him/ her can easily find much that is as good or even better as Islam, as a political system, as a personal way of life, and as a way of explaining life as close to the highest truth mankind can find.

    Which can be and is pointed out a lot by Darwinists like me. And others.

    And we believe it is very important to let people learn about all major ways of life and political systems and choose for themselves.

  183. Inside Islam Muslims are bound by the rules of Islam. So inside Islam interpreting Islam may be left to the experts and then Muslims should abide by that rule.

    But in Western countries there are now non-Muslims Islamologists, specialist in Islamic teachings, practices, and they can be very good in interpreting and explaining the Quran.

    And they are not within Islam. For them the rules of Islam do not apply. Muslims themselves are also allowed to study and interpret every other religion.

    But the Muslim experts on Islam may differ from the non-Muslim experts of Islam, in that the former are "prejudiced" in it's favor and in favor of it being supreme in the world, while the others may be in favor of other life-styles and cooperation of lifestyles rather than supremacy of one over the others.

  184. Ali Sina states “If any city in the West is nuked I am 100% for nuking tens of cities in Islamic countries. I don’t see Muslims as innocent people. They are all guilty as sin. It is not necessary to be part of al Qaida to be guilty. If you are a Muslim you agree with Muhammad and that is enough evidence against you.”

    Furthermore, he also states “We love you Muslims because you are humans like us. We are all related to each other. We are all limbs of the body of mankind. But you are diseased. You are infected by a deadly cult that threatens our lives. Your humanity is destroyed. Like a limb infected by flesh eating disease, now you are a threat to the rest of mankind. We will do everything to save you, to make you see your folly, and to make you understand that you are victims of a gigantic lie, so you leave this lie, stop hating mankind and plotting for its destruction and it domination. But if all efforts fail and if you become a threat to our lives and the lives of our children, we must amputate you. This will happen, not because I say so, but I say so because this is human response. We humans are dictated by our survival instinct. If you threaten me and my survival depends on killing you, I must kill you…."

    Case closed Demsci.

  185. The word Dharbah – does have many many meanings. . . in Qur'an itself several are used.

    The primary meaning of the word is "to beat". And that is what it means here.

    - – -

    "Refrain from" has to have the particle 'An عن . Else it does not mean "refrain from"

    - – -

    This is true according to the Classical dictionaries of Arabic. I have not come across meaning of Dharaba to mean refrain from – without the particle 'An.

    - – - –

    The Quran-only folk are the only people to use the word Dharba to mean "refrain from" here. No else – as far as I know.

  186. So you've donated $50 dollars to someone who you hold in such high esteem that you actually take life skills advice from him (Ali Sina). And you've got the gall to plug the movie?

    He is about to make a movie that is to change the world forever and you are struggling to ruffle up a few more dollars?

    You know the American Presidential campaign only lasts for a year or so and the President is in office for 4 years at a time. They don't claim to have a secret formula since Jesus and are about to change the world forever, but they do raise hundreds of millions of dollars and have millions of supporters.

    Guru Ali Sina Nanak on the other hand is about to change the world forever, bringing the demise of nearly 2 billion people and all he and his followers like you could barely muster up is a few dollars here and there.

    If you are hell bent on throwing your money down the pan, keep giving to Ali Sina.

    I think I should set up a similar get rich quick scam. Seems to work quite fine for Guru Sina.

  187. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 4 August 2012, 8:00 am

    lol

  188. Ali my friend. Stop it. Please just stop. You are not doing yourself any justice with your rhetoric.

    Islam has been here in the form that you know for nearly 1400 years, whereas we know it has been here since Adam, but that is another debate. We will stick to 1400 years for now as going to Adam will most probably give you a heart attack!

    Islam has numerous enemies that are way more powerful than you will ever be in a 100 lifetimes. If you have come to conquer Islam with a secret remedy that no other human has ever invented in 1400 years, why are they not flocking to support you and giving you every tool in the world to complete your job including unlimited funding and access to unlimited technologically? It has taken you since 1994 to get to where you are now, plus you need another 20 years on top, to reach your goal.

    It's taken you 18 years to find financing for your movie, which is going to be so big that talk about Oscars, Golden Globe, Emmy's and Nobel Peace Prize have already been ear marked for you and has your name engraved on them.

    Please!

    All I will say at this stage is Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Warren Buffet have got nothing on you. You without a shadow of a doubt are the Chosen One. There you go. You've got the pat on the back that you have been searching for all your life, so run along now and start coming up with another money making scam.

    By the way, who's playing the lead actor and who are you opting for Director? Spielberg, Scorsese or Ridley Scott?

    Let me give them a call and put in a good word for you as I have them on speed dial!

    What's the name of the movie?

    The Sina Delusion?

  189. Dear Moon Shadow,

    I can not understand, that when Mr Sina is raising the good questions, instead of replying them, you are talking about his family. I often feel hurt when he makes some comments of prophet PBUH. But when i see Muslim guys making comment of Hindu or Sikh religious figures. I think that the God is punishing them for this slander via Mr Sina. The God is not Muslim. Nor the God is compelled to give you heaven, when you copy the acts of prophet PBUH. When God only was there, there was no hell, heaven, books, angles or prophets. Read Holy Quran, there are verse telling that one day, there will be nothing but God. Your Heaven and our hell and angles, books, prophets all will be destroyed as they are created. Try to learn about Wahdat Al Wajood or unity of existence.

    When we have "they" and "us", we are never at peace of mind. We live in hell while alive and in after life also. You may think that, i am an agent of Satan Iblis , attacking your faith, with sugar coated pills. Just read Lahaul Billah Quwat. All powers from God. That is what i am telling you there. Satan will not teach you this. The God gave power to Mr Sina or to any one.

  190. Well, if The God is imagined to be bounded by a book or by copying a mortal. Imagination of the God is done. So all people who do this are pagan. I agree that I am Haram

  191. The Quran is like any other religious book…..
    man-made or MALE-made, and of course
    the man will make it work for his benifit.

    Even if, and I mean "even if ", the Quran did
    not mean "BEAT" them literally, the nine
    translators will translate it as "Beat"……..
    they were all men, weren't they……what do
    you expect?

  192. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Saturday 4 August 2012, 6:20 am

    Guru Nanak was a convert muslim and married to muslim. He was student of Sheikh Farid, a muslim sufi. He never asked any hindu for guidance in his life. He performed Chilla which is an Islamic form of meditation. He is not founder of sikhism but Guru Arjan Dev, the fifth Guru.

  193. So if an apostate loves his relatives he shouldn’t insult his relatives by telling them their faith is false, but Muslims can insult the belief of their non-Muslim relatives. Is this your definition of fair?

    Yes you may say it is taqiyyah and I have been advocating it to everyone. We need to give Muslims a taste of their own medicine sometimes. Apostates must deceive Muslims while they live among them to stay safe. Once our number increase and wherever you look you find more apostates in closet then we will suddenly come out and take the power in our hands. With the media and government in our power Islam will have no chance.

  194. But you did not explain why all the nine translators of the Quran got this so wrong and translated it as beating. Doesn\’t the Quran say it is a clear book easy to understand with no doubt in it?

    No one believes you twist the meaning of the Quran. Why would you? Would you lie for your faith? Of course not. Other Muslims do it, it is part of their religion. But you never do such thing.

  195. If you were truly an ex-Muslim, I do not believe that all your love ones have
    left Islam. I do not take insults to my loved ones, even if I am sure that
    their belief is wrong. You either don't have loved ones, or you don't care
    about them.

    Your advice to the lady who left Islam: " I told her not to reveal her apostasy and tell her parents she has given books about Islam to this man and he is interested to covert. Of course that is a lie. But I believe there is no point in giving her old folks too much pain'

    Isn't this "Takkiya", which you criticise always?

  196. I said I am not a guru in religion, but I am a guru
    in the Arabic language.

    When I gave you the meaning of "Yadrib", it was
    just for your information, and I am not trying to
    twist the meaning of the Quranic Aya.

  197. So how that applies to this verse? Translate the verse for us to see. Also explain why all the translators of the Quran have missed what you know so well.

  198. So far I have donated very little to FFI's cause. like less that 50 dollars. I will donate more as soon as I am able to put some money aside for this cause.

    Guru Nanak's teachings are certainly great, and a study of his life reveals a person who can only be called a 'saint'. His teachings are not different from upanishadic (Hindu) teachings though. I consider Guru Nanak to be in the same category as saints like Kabir, Sheikh Farid, Bulleh Shah, Namdev etc. All these saints had very similar teachings. However, almost all their teachings are no different from those of Hindu Upanishads, only the presentation is different.

  199. In 20 years Islam will end not because I say so, but I say so because it will end.

    How do I know this? Is this a guess or do I look into a crystal ball? Neither? I see the trend. Like an economist that predicts a pending crash because he sees the unsustainable inflation, I predict the crash of Islam by observing the trends.

    The rise of terrorism,
    The oppression of Islam against Muslims in Islamic countries,
    The phenomenal, unprecedented and unstoppable spread of truth about Muhammad and his despicable life.
    The awakening of non-Muslims vis-a-vis the treat of Islam, etc. work hand in hand to end Islam.

    My movie will put Islam under the spotlight. People will debate this religion and question whether the information in the movie is correct. Once they check the reference and verify their accuracy, Islam will be exposed. Muslims will find it hard to deceive people. That is the time that they will have to make their minds. to live in a lie or face the truth. I believe most will side with the truth.

  200. MoonShadow, where do you think I am getting the money? I have a donation button and I receive about $300 donation per year. My cost of server is nearly $200 per month. Who do you think pays me? Why it is so hard for you Muslims to think straight? You think a Muslim who blows himself up in order to kill other humans does this for faith, but if someone else sacrifices his comfort for something he believes to be important for humanity, he must be doing it for money. It is this petty thinking that does not allow you to see the truth.

    My family was hurt at first specially my dad, but now none of them is Muslim anymore. But even if they were, why should I care if others are hurt by what I think? My duty ends by not hurting them directly. If they chose to be hurt for what I think and say I have no control over that and there is nothing I can do about it.

    I receive questions like this from apostates who say their relatives are distraught about them leaving Islam. My answer is, so what! They do this to coerce you. If they really loved you they would respect your choice. It is not you whom they love, but themselves.

    One lady who wrote to me a few months ago to ask some questions eventually left Islam. She kept it a secret from her Pakistani family. But met a Christian man and decided to marry him. I told her not to reveal her apostasy and tell her parents she has given books about Islam to this man and he is interested to covert. Of course that is a lie. But I believe there is no point in giving her old folks too much pain. However, when she introduced him to them they went berserk just because he is a white guy and horror of horrors a Christian.

    She is close to 40. There is not much time for her to form a family and the parents are so selfish that don’t give a damn about her. Instead all they care is how others will react knowing she has married a white Christian man. To hell with this kind of family. Who needs them? They rather see her become a spinster than marry a white man whom she loves. If they are hurt it is their business. We should be watchful of this kind of manipulations. If they had the power to beat her they would but since she is the one who provides for them they manipulate her by playing mind games.

    My advice to apostates is that they should be vigilant of this kind of psychological coercion. Don’t give in to that. When my father started crying, i.e. ten years ago, I told her I will stop doing what I am doing just to make him happy. He hugged me and begged me to revert and I promised that I will. Of course I didn’t mean that. I went upstairs and started writing another article. Gradually he saw the light.

    We should be gentle with our loved ones but never let them control our life with their theatrics.

  201. @ Ali Sina

    How about your family members and your loved ones? if they are
    still Muslims, don't you care a bit about them? Is it to this limit
    that you give a damn to them and accumulating money is your
    priority? I wonder how do these clowns (your fans) respect and
    trust you, while you care less about your own flesh and blood.

  202. They cannot forbid other Muslims or even non-Muslims to read and interpret the Koran as they wish. The Koran must belong to all mankind to read and interpret, it seems to us.

    sorry interpretation for koran is left to the expert just as surgery is left to the expert . Yes koran belong to all mankind but that teaching and its message and not its interpretation . If we allow anybody to interpret koran without studying the tools we will completely distort Islam .

  203. For example, there are stories in the Chicago Tribune all the time about some nice Muslim families, and how they completely fit in the US.

    who the hell read in USA people over there prefer tv . writing about Muslim families is not same as talking about Islam. You have to watch TV and see the propaganda about Islam , check fox news

    And if you are going to tell me that he doesn't know Islam, then you should be contacting HIM and tell him to learn Islam from a leading expert in Islam.

    This guy is wahabi sheik who is hired by zionist royal family which rules S Aurabia he is the last person that I will listen to learn about zionists . He is just a hypocrite because if he is really concernet about danger of zionist Jews he should not working for zionist arabs such as al Saud family in S Arabia which I consider to be enemy of Islam number 1 . Plus why do not you say something about hates that your boss Ali spew about Muslims . here are some quotes .

    Muslims don’t know the meaning of love. 
    Muslims are damaged.  
    As long as he is a Muslim he is  possessed by the devil.
    The whole Islamic world is narcissist.
    To you Muslims appear as hypocrite and you are right
    There are no emotionally healthy and happy Muslims.
    It is fair to say that every Muslim is damaged to a certain degree.
    In the sick mind of a Muslim, the only thing that matters is how others view him.
    As the result no Muslim is 100% okay. I haven’t seen any and I don’t believe there is one.

  204. "If you believe something to be correct that strongly . . . you would pass that on to your children. As i have pointed out . . . inadvertently it is impossible NOT to indoctrinate you children. Even Atheists and Secularists do it. "

    Yes, OK. But would you agree with school-education of all religions and lifestyles from an early age? Would you consider a compromise in which most parents agree to let all their children hear from all the religions'essences?

    And would you agree that at, say 21, all children can choose freely their religion/ lifestyle for life? So without deathpenalty for apostasy, of course. And would you agree to making that clear to children from a young age up?

  205. You mean he will achieve a fan following of 11 rather than 10?

    Since 1994, he has achieved so much that Islam is growing even faster and more people are being attracted into Islam from different Faiths? So, what you are saying is that after the movie, we will have even more people come into Islam, similar to after the 9/11 attacks? We already know that.

    Ali Sina is the Muslims secret weapon. The more he spews, the more come to Islam.

  206. If Ali Sina impressed you the most, how much have you donated to his cause then? And why hasn't Guru Nanak impressed you as much?

  207. Of course Islam will end in another 20 years Ali Sina. Why? Because you said so.

    In 20 years, you will be in a wheelchair, deaf, dumb and blind. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, China will be known as Africa. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, USA will be known as Australia. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, we will all be using horse and cart as a means of transport as cars will no longer exist. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, all air travel will end and we will revert back to foot travel. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, there will be no internet and we will only communicate sending telegraphs. Why? Because I said so.

    In 20 years, man will revert back to apes. Why? Because I said so.

    You see Ali Sina, as preposterous as my predictions sound, they are no different to what you say. Absolute garbage.

    Let me go back to the drawing board and make up some more garbage. Like I told you before Ali, milk the 2 minutes of fame for what it's worth and fleece the gullible while you can. Make enough money, retire and live like a king for the rest of your life.

    It's all about the 'benjamins' with you. Don't be shy.

  208. The Arabic word "Yadrib" means "beat" or "hit"
    It also means "refrain" from doing something.
    "Yadrib an al ta'am" mean refrain from eating.
    It is mostly used in this case (refraining), as
    a protest.

  209. "What Sina really saying is . . . that his projected interpretation of Islam is the right one. "

    I want to react to this remark. Do not many Muslims also think that their interpretation, version of Islam is the right one? Or even that their interpretation IS Islam?!

    We know that at least the Arabic version of Quran-Hadith-Sira are finite, immutable, studyable by all, not just Muslims. It is not fair that a person should need to be a Muslim to understand these core-texts.

    It seems certain a non-Muslim historian specialising in Islam, is much better qualified than the average Muslim. And dedicated Islam-critics can be much more knowledgeable about Islam than average Muslims.

    What bothers is me that so often Muslims argue with counter-jihadists and then go to great lengths to tell the world what Islam is and is not, and wants and wants not, and means and means not.

    And that even Quran-Only-Muslims do that. When it is clear that their Islam differs from mainstream when the mainstream among Muslims still holds many Hadiths as valid.

    And it is clear that even among Muslims many interpretations, versions, and practices exist. Like you yourself sometimes indicate, for instance when you say that there are a-political sufi's.

    It seems to me that these differences should be layed out more clearly and officially and different Muslims should explain from which version of Islam they are.

    Now if often happens that a part of Islam is interpreted in a certain way, by authoritative or a large number of Muslims.

    And then Islam-critics say exactly the same thing,

    But then Islam-apologists chastise the Islam-critics,

    without clearly distinguishing them and distancing them from the Muslims, from whom the Islam-critics copied their Islam-interpretation from! It's just not fair!

  210. I am really baffled at how Muslims lie so unabashedly. The verse 79:30 says:

    وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَهَا

    See how this verse is translated by the translators of the Quran:

    Pickthall And after that He spread the earth,

    Yusuf Ali
    And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

    Hilali-Khan
    And after that He spread the earth;

    Shakir
    And the earth, He expanded it after that.

    Sher Ali
    And the earth, along with it, HE has spread forth.

    Arberry
    and the earth-after that He spread it out,

    Palmer
    and the earth after that He did stretch out

    Rodwell
    And afterwards stretched forth the earth, -

    Sale
    After his he stretched out the earth,

    Transliterated Arabic Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha

    Where is the sphere or egg shape? Is it possible that all the translators of the Quran actually don’t know Arabic?

  211. Yes I love Haifa Wehbe.

  212. In the time the Quran was written and long before there was thorough domination of men over women, it is not an invention of Islam, I deeply realise. Even in Roman law a man had power of life and death over his wife, let alone that he had the right to beat her.

    So, in his time, what did the prophet Mohammed really mean when he wrote 4:34? No contemporary could or would have, say, admonished him, if he really had meant "beat". And for the longest time it almost certainly must have been interpreted that way among Muslims.

    It would be very well if great numbers of Muslims would interpret 4;34 the way you interpret it. Somehow I would like to see a division among Muslims, and among authoritative clerics in Islam, between the really-beat-version and your separation-version.

    Because there is the immutable text; 4;34, and there are the 2 or more possible interpretations of it, and officially ignoring it is also a possibility. But I think we would like very much to know who among the Muslims chooses which version or ignorance of the verse.

    When it should become apparent that vast numbers of Muslims still support the really-beat-version, then you should acknowledge that Islam-critics did not invent it and that they are their opposition to it is not due to hate but due to genuine concern. And then you should give Islam-critics their due, respect and understanding for bringing this women-rights-issue up. Since, in all probability, Muslims themselves did not bring it up on their own.

    When your "separation-version" or officially ignoring 4;34 becomes mainstream in Islam worldwide, then I daresay that this would not have come about without a lot of pressure from Islam-critics.

    Who apparently motivated you or your source to do a lot of thinking and research. I think Islam-criticism is beneficial for Muslims if refutation results in better or perhaps, truer, more accurate, interpretations, which would not have been found or emphasized without the heavy widespread criticism. And without it many Muslim husbands would still use the justification of 4;34 to beat their wives. But together Islam-critic and Islam-apologists have now started to improve the use of this verse.

  213. Actually in your story you kept Muslims sitting ideal while you are accomplishing your target.

    Coming out of depression Shakespeare said world's the stage but your depression is so massive you say we are the directors !

    Your answer is fully qualified to view as testimony of a schizophrenic.

  214. Here is how various translators of the Quran have translated this verse.

    Pickthall
    As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

    Yusuf Ali
    As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly);

    Hilali-Khan
    As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful),

    Shakir
    and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;

    Sher Ali
    And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them.

    Arberry
    And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them.

    Palmer
    But those whose perverseness ye fear, admonish them and remove them into bed-chambers and beat them;

    Rodwell
    But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourage them:

    Sale
    But those, whose perverseness ye shall be apprehensive of, rebuke; and remove them into separate apartments, and chastise them.

    So you think all these translators have misunderstood the Quran which is a clear book with no doubt in it?

    If they are all wrong, can you translate the verse please? Note how several of them were embarrassed of this verse and did their best to soften it by inserting (lightly and if useful) in parenthesis. If they could translate it in another way they would have done it.

    The argument that those who see the asininity of the Quran and point it out do so because they have a disease in their heart proves my argument that Muhammad was a narcissist. This is the typical claim of all narcissists who say anyone who disagrees with them does so because they are jealous and have some problems with them. They don’t provide logical arguments to refute the charges. Instead they resort to ad hominem. There is no disease in the heart of the critics of Muhammad. But there is a disease in the head of his followers.

  215. "There are radicals in all
    religions, and all religions are nasty, all of
    them have vices. " and
    "you emphasise on Islam only, and disregard
    the evil in the other religions."

    Moonshadow, I agree with THIS.

    But what if we ask ourselves: What did Allah or Mohammed really mean and want? And what influence has that on Muslims

    and in turn the resultant behavior of Muslims on all people, and on state-organisation and laws?

    What Mohammed brought into the world was not nothing, or only something inconsequential, for only private lives.

    Mohammed did mean and want SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT-INFLUENTIAL, it was revolutionary and meant to change lives and societies.

    And Islam is very powerful, and we can try to understand it. Independently, because we are all stakeholders in how this world and our lives or organised.

    And many people, can have their own opinions on how life and states best and preferably are organised.

    And then it is possible for them to conclude that their preferred lifestyle is much different from what Mohammed wanted and how his followers interpret and practice it.

    And these other people may conclude that Islam is contradicting and threathening their preferred lifestyle and state-organisation and laws.

    As they can also conclude that Islam is unique in this and that other religions are not so much contradicting and threathening their preferred life-styles and state-organisation and laws.

    And both sides, pro Islam or pro other ideologies may respect each other, but should validate that they can have very different goals and that they either can fight or compromise over them. OK? Ali has another ideology and he fights.

  216. "I get very irritated when someone refuses
    to understand me. I said over and over
    that I have no faith in any religion, but that
    does not mean I approve with your
    attitude, and call the world to destroy
    a certain religion and kill everyone who
    believes in it."

    But, Moonshadow, it is you in your turn who refuses to "understand" Ali Sina, when HE has stated a thousand more times than you could ever have stated your positions here that he does NOT want to kill everyone who believes in Islam.

    Moreover he has stated his motivations and still you refuse to "understand" them. It is your right of course not to BELIEVE them, but then you must see that he and others do not believe YOUR statements. That then is not the same as not UNDERSTAND them. It is for both sides here possible to understand but not believe what the other side tells them, OK?

  217. "Interpretation of koran is left to the experts".

    The experts are welcome to it, but how much authority is conferred on them?

    They cannot forbid other Muslims or even non-Muslims to read and interpret the Koran as they wish. The Koran must belong to all mankind to read and interpret, it seems to us.

    It is only that interpretations of the Koran should not be imposed on people by interpreters. But people should be allowed to think and talk about it.

    And there is a reason for outsiders to interpret the Koran independently because it indirectly has a big effect on many people; on behavior of it's followers, thus on their fellow-citizens, and on the organisation of states, on laws.

    But we have heard of Islamic schools of thought, Shafi, Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, whose interpretation is supposed to be authoritative, though it often is contradicted by other Muslims, when under pressure from interpretations of the Quran by outsiders.

  218. No. Ali Sina needs only words.
    You need "military or something lol"

  219. The possible meanings given are more than the two you analyzed here, why are you so crafty, you left out the other meanings and took two meanings that you know don't fit, just as the term BEAT does not fit and try to confuse people with your '…..since it is used in a sentence their can be no ambiguity..? i understand your confusion perfectly, English is your borrowed language so you do not know that a word can mean different things in one sentence giving the sentence different meaning at different point in time, that is why the ost had a lot of other verses that deals with. If you read my comments carefully, you will see that the Quran created men and women equal, with one above the other in things that are obvious…i am sure you can claim the verse that talks about this is a verse encouraging male dominant religion, if you have a little knowledge of Biology you will know that Men are Normally harder stronger than women, that is why the duty of the protection of women is on the man and provision.Moreover, it is not coincidence you seek the multiple meaning word just to find discord in the Quran, people like you have been described in the Quran. so i am not surprised anyway. 3.7….He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definitesigns; they are the essence of the book;and others, which are multiple-meaning.As for those who have disease in theirhearts, eager to cause confusion andeager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaningfrom it. But none knows their meaningexcept God and those who are wellfounded in knowledge; they say, “Weacknowledge it, all is from our Lord.”None will remember except the people of intellect.*

  220. WE INFIDELS SEE THAT THESE MUSLIMS ARE DESPERATE !!
    WHY SHOULD THEY WORRY ABOUT SOME ANTI-ISLAMIC SITES AS THIS ONE IF THEY ARE SURE OF THEMSELVES!
    IT IS A STRONG SIGN THAT WE ARE DOING WELL WITH FIGHTING THE EVIL CULT ISLAM OF THE FAKE PROPHET MOHAMMED !

  221. QURAN 9:123
    Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….

  222. and there is something worse than a racist: ISLAM !

  223. Per Quran every muslims hates the kafir.
    Sura -2:98-Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. –
    Sura-9:73 -O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. –
    And there is much more, but you know that
    "And you seriously imagine that you aren't a hate monger. . . and indiscriminately don't hate all ïnfidels"? Hey…AMIN…??. Silly, backward muslim!

  224. |Per Quran every muslims hates the kafir.
    Sura -2:98-Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. –
    Sura-9:73 -O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. –
    And there is much more, but you know that
    "And you seriously imagine that you aren't a hate monger. . . and indiscriminately don't hate all ïnfidels"? Hey…AMIN…??. Silly, backward muslim!
    In other words. . . indiscriminate hate towards one particular group. The Nazi's used the same justifications.
    And the nazi's ( Hitler loved Islam !!) ;-)

  225. YOPer Quran every muslims hates the kafir.
    Sura -2:98-Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. –
    Sura-9:73 -O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. –
    And there is much more, but you know that
    "And you seriously imagine that you aren't a hate monger. . . and indiscriminately don't hate all ïnfidels"? Hey…AMIN…??. Silly, backward muslim! U ,as muslim, are sick.AMIN…
    Again:

  226. Per Quran every muslims hates the kafir.
    Sura -2:98-Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. –
    Sura-9:73 -O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. –
    And there is much more, but you know that ;-)
    "And you seriously imagine that you aren't a hate monger. . . and indiscriminately don't hate all ïnfidels"? Hey…AMIN…??. Silly, backward muslim!

  227. Good to notice that there are people here who make
    sense. Without them, this site will turn to a huge
    waste bin, handy for every psychopath to drop his
    filth in.

  228. Words can have different meanings. This is true in all languages. Take the word “character”. It can mean
    Personality, in print: a symbol or a letter, in movies: a role played by an actor. I also can mean morality and traits and more. But once it is used in a sentence there is no ambiguity about the meaning of the word.
    Daraba can have different meaning, like minting a coin or multiplying. But It would be silly to translate the verse of the Quran with any other meaning than beating.

    If you fear disobedience from your wives, admonish them and abandon them in their beds and multiply them?

    If you fear disobedience from your wives, admonish them and abandon them in their beds and mint them?

    Only “beat them” makes logical sense although it does not make ethical sense. In your effort to make the Quran sound ethical you are willing to make it sound utterly stupid and illogical.

    If you are embarrassed of Islam, just leave it. Don’t try to defend the indefensible.

  229. wowwowo………..you love Haifa
    Wehbe……….
    now I know exactly what you are.

  230. I don\’t know about HIV being a hoax. I haven\’t seen that \”documentary\” so I can\’t opine. However, the argument you use is valid. Just because 1.5 billion people believe in Islam and many think it is a religion, it does not mean that it is. I have evidence to prove otherwise. The evidence is given in my book in detail and also in many articles that I have written.

  231. No you are wrong. I said Islam will end in about thirty years. Ten years have passed and a lot has been achieved. In this ten years we raised the awareness of Islam. Many people learned this so called religion is actually a facade of a political ideology of domination. Thousands of sites have been created to expose and oppose Islam. The anti Islamic movement was set into motion.

    This decade will be when we bring that message to most people of the world. We will expand the ways to communicate and will expose the lies of Islam further.

    The decade that will follow will witness the demise of Islam, when millions of people will leave this religion.

    Muslims will help us achieve our goal. The Islamic terrorism and the Islamic human rights violations in Islamic countries will precipitate this process.

  232. God teaches the Quran to a Open minded person. That is what the Quran say. Is it a coincidence that the Quran says that There are two types of verses in the Quran, Clear verses and multiple meaning verses and he leads those who approach the Quran to find discord in it astray with these multiple meaning verses.

  233. The way you reference Ali Sina, i am sure he is like a god to you. Ali sina's initial plan was to use his website and He gave a time span of ten years, to stop islam, Its over ten years and he has done almost nothing! and Now he is parroting about a movie. We are waiting, what he knows not is the fact that He is not the first and he wont be the last. But the true Ideologies of islam will stand.

  234. The only thing that I admit is that using Q 3:7 to try to show Quran calls Earth flat was not a smart idea. However, I never admitted that the statement- 'Earth is flat according to Quran' is False, and I still don't.

    Even the statement you made- "Quran is neutral regarding the shape of Earth" is FALSE. This is apparent from reading the Quran, both with and without considering context.
    ***********

    "You are of Indian origin . . . and you have been indoctrinated with hate against Muslims since birth – that is why you spew it on here. . ."
    ————–
    Apparently, you are not Indian. If you were, you would never have said that.

  235. Read the post again! I never said LAST 300 years. I said 'over 300 years'. Those 'over 300 years' were BEFORE the british came in. Every kid in India knows that it was the British who were ruling before independence. Therefore, the 300 years of Muslim rule that I talked about has to be some time period other than the British rule.

  236. You have to send an e-mail to Dr. Sina saying "I am a Muslim and I want to read your book." He e-mails you the pdf version. His e-mail is faithfreedom2@gmail.com

  237. NO, Christians and Jews are no pigs, they are human beings.
    But Muslims are SCUMBAGS because they are following a SCUMBAG.
    This is a proven fact , it is no name calling.

  238. Becauase there live many non-whites in america , stupid muslim !
    The president of America is even black/brown. ;-)
    You are a racist ,Zitouni !!!

  239. For repeating you must read the QURAN.
    Stupid and senseless repeating again and again.
    And look at your praying: stupid repeating ….endlessly.
    All your backward washing and other brainless things.
    Don't talk abour repeating , you islamic moron !

  240. "And you couldn't give a bloody straight answer".
    ——–
    You mean a one-word answer. … but It would be an incorrect answer There are so many ideas that have influenced my perspective on life that I cannot do justice to any of them by giving you a one-word answer.

  241. Also heard this guy on youtube who said even if all the verses are true, the Islamic God definitely thought the earth is flat when he said muslims should pray in the direction of the Ka,ba. He concludes that definitely The Islamic God was thinking of a flat earth. If only he had a little knowledge in geography he would know two people can face themselves longitudinally or latitudinally, two people can actually be standing on the-same plane on opposite sides of the world.

  242. TAQIYYA, TU QUOQUES AND SHEER LIES !
    WE HAVE HEARD IT ALL. YOUR ARE A BRAINWASHED !

  243. You can choose to behave like your usual self, Refere to Ali sina articles without even trying to think yourself

  244. "Interpretation of koran is left to the experts ."
    WE ARE NO SLAVES. WE THINK FOR OURSELVES.

  245. ….CONTINUED
    The shape of the earth being similar to an oblate spheroid [ Also according to Wikipedia: "The Earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid—a rounded shape with a bulge around the equator—although the precise shape (the geoid) varies from this by up to 100 metres (327 ft)."

    Eggs can be described as prolate spheroids, ovate spehroids or oblate spheroids. The fact is the word used in the Quran has particular root link to an ostrich egg

    We are specifically observing an Ostrich egg which does resemble an Oblate Spheroid and NOT Prolate Spheroid. More over technical labeling is irrelevant since these are invented modern names that we ascribe to the earth. How would it make sense for God to describe the earth as an 'Oblate spheroid' 1400 years ago? Even if God were to describe the Earth as simply 'round' it would be incorrect. Describing the Earth as resembling an ostrich egg is very significant and precise as it was not only unique at the time but is still accurate and visually relevant

    Thus its not just a case of bad translation, the words in arabic have multiple meanings and all cant be used at once however deeper analysis do show that all the meanings are accurate. This however is not likely to convince the non muslim who most probably thinks the muslims are stretching it abit and using words they want to use, which is their choice and is fair enough. But to say the verses are irrelevant is incorrect, they certainly have some merit

    Thus the allegation is untrue, the Quran and modern established science are in perfect harmony.

  246. "That was because you called me "DEAR", so you are clearly beinga hypocrite, AND I HATE THAT ! "

    huh? If that is best you could do . . . I take "irony" simply washes off you.

    - – -

    You are one person – who keep changing names and posting . . . insults. Well – go ahead and amuse yourself . . . dearie!

    - – -

    Anything of worth is hardly going to come from you now is it?

    - – -

    Another bleeding link-poster. . . .

  247. 4. Earth is geospherical in shape

    The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse: "And we have made the earth egg shaped". The Holy Quran, Chapter 79, Verse 30

    The "dahu" in the Arabic Language means to extend and even out. It is said: "daha" the thing; "yad'hu dahwan". These terms can mean he either evened out and extended it or he threw it and rolled it. It is also said: "the rain daha the stones from the face of the earth," which means it rolled it and washed it away. It is also said: "The horse passed by yad'hu dahwan," which means he is beating his foot on the ground and yad'hu its sand. Also, the ostrich's mad'hi means its laying of its eggs, and "ad'hiha" is the nest where its chicks are born.

    So as we clearly see, all of the above Arabic words that are derived from "daha" mean:
    1- To extend.
    2- To roll.
    3- To even out.
    4- Causing to become egg-shaped or creating, making or producing eggs (see the ostrich's mad'hi example above).

    The meanings all derive from the root word in arabic, there is nothing wrong with applying all the meanings especially amazing in this situation seeing as they are all true. Arabic is a rich language and words usually have more then one meaning

    The Arabic word dahaha in Noble Verse 79:30 above did have multiple meanings and uses. One of them was when one refers to an ostrich egg. Another was when referring to making something extended, spread out, stretched and/or expanded. This is an example of how Allah Almighty uses scientific notions in the Noble Quran when He talked about how He created certain things. He gave words that had multiple meanings and interpretations to them to make the Noble Quran truly be for all times and all places, and show it has deeper meanings. The meanings unravel more and more as scientific discoveries increase

  248. Earth has been spread out

    Similarly, the Quran says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.

    "And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!" The Holy Quran, Chapter 51, Verse 48

    Similarly the Quran also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:

    "Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse. And the mountains as pegs?" The Holy Quran, Chapter 78, Verse 6-7

    None of these verses of the Quran contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Quran says:

    "O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!"

    The Holy Quran, Chapter 29, Verse 56
    Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances

  249. Earth made as a carpet

    The question refers to a verse from the Qur’an in Surah Nuh:
    "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 71, Verse 19

    But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says: "That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads." The Holy Quran, Chapter 71, Verse 20

    A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:

    "He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)…." The Holy Quran, Chapter 20, Verse 53

    The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Quran rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.

    2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface

    Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

    Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Quran is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.

  250. As for the earth is flat, i do not know why you never critically analyze any issue before concluding YOURSELF, i will tell you again, Ali sina has his believes and convictions, Not everything he preaches is true, as a matter of fact their are lots of lies, unfortunately you have fallen victim to the ideologies of this man/woman. Let me tell you something you have never known in the medical field. what would you say if i tell you i have a detailed medical documentary on the fact that HIV is a hoax? yes a very detailed will years of research and by accredited scientist and doctors dedicating their thesis to the study. Would you then say that because the majority believes in the fact that it exist not matter the evidence provided and no matter what they say, your mind will remain the-same? that would be the highest degree of irrationality. I see that in most of you here against islam.
    i will explain one after the other the proofs that the earth is spherical

    First and foremost

  251. Yet you don't even know your history! Last 300yrs – it was the British that ruled.

    Even when attempt to insult – you are poorly ignorant.

  252. "Truth is NOT hate! But truth does hurt, so sorry you are hurting. "

    What truth. . . . the one about the "flat earth". . . and you continuous lies. . .

    When it came down it . . . you lost. And you admitted it you lost.

    - – -

    Yet different comment section – and you repeat the lies. . .

    . . . is that what you call telling the truth?

    - – -

    When it came to it . . . you couldn't even say what your own faith was . . . you made some wild non-sense up.

    - – -

    You are of Indian origin . . . and you have been indoctrinated with hate against Muslims since birth – that is why you spew it on here. . .

    . . .Truth does hurt doesn't it!

  253. "The video that i posted doesn't seem to support that view!"

    You read and listen and watch – one sided propaganda – and then you post it on here.

    Your motivation is HATE. . . and you haven't got much else to go on.

  254. "Earth is FLAT according to the Quran"

    See . . . how you lie and deceive? If the Earth . . . is flat according to Quran – then shows us all where does it say that?

    - – -

    We had this discussion – and you lost. . . as you weren't professional enough. Now you are lying. . . and you know it.

    - – -

    This is what your "wise master" Sina – does.

    - – -

    You are just motivated by hate . . . nothing more – the truth doesn't matter. That is why you still repeat the lie . . . even though when it came to proving this assertion . . . you lost!

    - – -

    What a load of nonsense, hypocrisy, ignorance . . . and a hatemonger you are. Go and sort yourself out.

  255. A Coherent Understanding
    When we read 4:34, we should not understand iDRiBuhunna as “beat those women.” We should, instead, remember that this word has multiple meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with marital disloyalty on the part of a wife. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior, the husband should begin to address the problem by giving advice. If this does not work, he should stop sleeping in the same bed and see if this produces a change in behavior. And if there is still no improvement in the situation, the husband has the right to compel a separation.
    The Quran gives analogous rights to women who must deal with disloyal husbands (4:128); this is in accordance with the principle that women have “similar” rights to men in such situations, as stated clearly in 2:228. These would hardly be “similar” rights if women had to suffer physical beatings for marital disloyalty, and men did not!
    Beating women who are cheating and betraying the marriage contract is not an ultimate solution, and it is not consistent with the promise of equitability and comparable rights that appears in 2:228. (This is an important consideration, because the Quran proclaims, and Muslims believe, that it is utterly free from inconsistencies.) But “striking out” the disloyal wives – that is, separating from them — is consistent, and it is the best solution. It is also fair.

  256. Yet…brainwashed cretin… there are hundreds of examples of your muslim-failure .
    READ IT ! IQRA!! (or can't you read , just as your retarded fake priphet !)
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/category/the-challeng
    Sorry for being harsh (!) on you ;-)
    That was because you called me "DEAR", so you are clearly beinga hypocrite, AND I HATE THAT !
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/category/the-challeng

  257. Interestingly, the same word, nushuz, is used later in the same chapter, in 4:128 – but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands, not wives, as it was in 4:34. In our view, the traditional translation of nushuz, that is, “opposition” will not fit in both contexts. However, the understanding of nushuz as marital disloyalty, in a variety of forms, is clearly appropriate for both 4:34 and 4:128.
    The fourth key word is QaNiTat, which means “devoted to God,” and in some verses is used to describe both man and woman (2:116,238; 3:17,43; 16:120; 30:26; 33:31,35; 39:9; 66:5,12). Though this word is mostly translated correctly as “obedient,” when read in the context of the above-mentioned distortion it conveys a false message implying women must be “obedient” to their husbands as their inferiors. The word is mentioned as a general description of Muslim women (66:12), and more interestingly as a description of Mary who, according to the Quran, did not even have a husband! (66:12).

  258. Another Take on 4:34
    In keeping with the translation we have used in 38:44, we translate the controversial “beating” portion of 4:34 as “leave her” (Literally, the phrase might also be rendered “strike them out,” meaning, in essence, “Separate yourselves from such wives.”).
    Additionally, the word nushuz, which is generally translated as “opposition” or “rebellion” in 4:34, has another meaning. If we study 4:34 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as embracing a range of related ideas, from “flirting” to “engaging in an extramarital affair” – indeed, any word or words that reflects the range of disloyalty in marriage. The clue is the phrase before nushuz, which reads: “… they honor them according to God’s commandments, even when alone in their privacy.” This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life, and helps us to make better sense of what follows.

  259. Finding the Appropriate Meaning
    Whenever we encounter a multiple-meaning word in the Quran we must select the proper meaning (or meanings) given the context, the Arabic forms, the usage of the same word elsewhere in the Quran, and a certain amount of common sense. For instance, if one were to translate DaRaBa in 13:17 as “beat” (as one could conceivably do), the meaning would be ridiculous:
    .” . . God thus beats truth and falsehood…” (13:17)
    A more sensitive rendering of the context, however, yields a better translation:
    “… God thus explains truth and falsehood…” (13:17)
    Another example of mistranslation of DaRaBa can be found in the translation of 38:44. Almost all the translations inject a rather silly story to justify their rendering of the passage. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the first portion of this verse, which is about Job:
    “And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (the oath).” (38:44)
    Yusuf Ali, in the footnote, narrates the traditional story: “He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her: he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant”.
    However, without assuming the existence of this strange, male-viewpoint story (which has no other reference in the Quran), we can translate the verse as:
    Yusuf Ali
    And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (thy oath)… (38:44)
    Reformist
    Take in your hand a bundle and travel with it, and do not break your oath… (38:44)

  260. As you see, in the Quran alone we can attest to the verb DaRaBa having at least ten different meanings. DaRaBa also has other meanings that are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in modern Arabic, you do not print money–you DaRaBa money. You do not multiply numbers–you DaRaBa numbers. You do not cease doing work–you DaRaBa doing work. In Turkish, we have many verbs similar to the Arabic DaRaBa, such as Çalmak, which means to play, steal, or strike. In English, we have two verbs that are almost equivalent to DaRaBa. These are “strike” and “beat.” Consider, for the sake of comparison, that Webster’s Dictionary gives fourteen different meanings for the verb “to strike,” and eight for the verb “to beat”! (One strikes a match, strikes a deal, strikes an opponent, strikes gold, goes “on strike” against an unfair employer; one beats another team, beats out a rhythm, beats a retreat, and so on.).

  261. " Why is that important?? "

    Whether you can give a straight answer. . . and it is good to know. . . as your username suggests.

    And your motivation for being that disgustingly anti-Muslim.

    - – -

    And you couldn't give a bloody straight answer.

    - – -

  262. Now please reread the sentence above. You will see that the word “beat” has been used three times, conveying totally different meanings each time: a verbal phrase meaning “avoid approaching directly” (“beat around the bush”); a verbal phrase meaning “depart quickly” (“beat a hasty retreat”) and the status of having been defeated (“beaten”). Interestingly, the Arabic verb traditionally translated by male translators as “beat” or “scourge” — iDRiBuhunne – also has numerous different meanings in Arabic, which is reflected by the Quran.
    A Famous Multiple-Meaning Word
    The main problem comes from the word iDRiBuhunna, which has traditionally been translated as “beat them.” The root of this word is DaRaBa. If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. In fact, you will find that that list is one of the longest lists in your Arabic dictionary. It can be said that DaRaBa is the number-one multiple-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings; we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.
    •To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
    •To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
    •To beat: 8:50; 47:27
    •To set up: 43:58; 57:13
    •To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
    •To take away, to ignore: 43:5
    •To condemn: 2:61
    •To seal, to draw over: 18:11
    •To cover: 24:31
    •To explain: 13:17

  263. Ooh,la,la,l, its a spell! Moonshadow very dangerous admi. Ba chhhhhhhhhhowwwwww!

  264. A discussion on the Quran saying you should beat your wife…it is another lie… Read the details here.
    “Verse 4:34 of the Quran orders Muslims to beat their wives; therefore, Islam is a male-dominant religion.” Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. Though wife-beating is not a Muslim specialty, and domestic violence is an endemic problem in the West as well as the East, the issue nevertheless is whether it is justified by God. Most people reading conventional translations of 4:34 feel that something is deeply wrong. How could God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It appears to be in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage:
    “Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think.” (30:21)
    Obviously, these mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they try to soften the word “beat” when they translate the verse 4:34. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parenthesis after “beat,” adding the word “(lightly).” This insertion does not appear in the Arabic text; it serves as a kind of apology for his translation of the surrounding material.
    Many orthodox translators have tried to beat around the bush when it comes to explaining this passage, and perhaps just as many have beaten a hasty retreat from those inquiring after the author’s intention — but all have found themselves, in the end, beaten by 4:34…to be continued

  265. YOU are haraam,Vijay. ;-)

  266. You play your usual trick, you cling onto an evidence, just one out of a million, you forget in every case study their are usually exceptions…but do you care? you don't as long as it proofs your point. This is a grossly insincere way of analyzing issues. Muslims do go into the room with footwares that is a known fact, to prevent entering the room with things from outside under your foot which could include all forms of bacteria to chemicals. Muslims use water after visiting the toilet, as against the paper used in other places which definitely leaves tiny pieces of feacal matter around the Anus.Muslims wash at least five times a day for prayer purposes, Muslims are told to always keep a clean environment and use perfumes to improve the smell of the environment. in some communities, poverty and other conditions in ghettos make this impracticable hence what you see.

  267. If you call what he is doing stooping down, then a lot of your colleagues on this website also stoop down because they insult more than any other person on this site. All you need to do to get huge collection of insults is to post a comment that is against what they preach. i recall you telling them they should reduce the insults in one of your post. i hope they hear you and stop. BUT I WILL STILL TELL YOU…WHAT YOU DO IS AS EVIL AS WHAT THE EVIL MULLAHS DO. Very soon, some of you will use this site to motivate yourself to physically insult and kill innocent muslims. The very muslims who cause the blood she, you will never get them, because they are a tiny minority.

  268. This is how you stop people from dying??? by hiding behind your PCs parroting half truths about misguided sects? i say misguided sects because if this people could make the world believe the prophet was illiterate whereas he was literate, then they can fabricate anything against the prophet. I posted a comment telling you the realities of issues in Nigeria, you responded saying you did not read the rest of my comments. I can see how rational you are. 'KnowTheTruth'

  269. Ali sina you are a BIG lair, and these are some of your comments i see that makes me doubt if you are one individual or a group! You hate described muslims as sick, low metal creatures in your years long war against them, You have said so many insults against them. Those insults are definitely that of an individual who does not hate muslims, as a matter of fact he adores and pities them. and calls for their world to be nuked! Just serch your site and you will see those insults you rained on the worlds 1 billion plus muslims. Including people who have never supported the killing and ways of the jihadist.

  270. I have told the people of this webpage and faith freedom.org to stop using half truths to deceive people. They know their points are very weak so they play a mind disturbing game, they constantly make you repeat yourself over and over again..its pretty annoying when you think you dealing with people who claim to be rational but you find out they are just like the very Extremist Monsters they claim to be fighting against.

  271. Why is that important??

    But since you asked, I grew up as Sikh. Today however, my perspective of life comes from everywhere- sikhism, hinduism, science, some sufism, and the sayings/teachings of all the other wise people including Dr. Sina. Hinduism has impressed me the most though.

  272. zitouni, you told us to read Quran 8:61, but for some reason you didn't demand that we read the ayats prior to 8:60.

    I never told you to read 8 61 what I said that Ali Sina the deceiver did not quote the whole verse 8 60 so I quoted it for you

    It looks like the Quran is saying in these verses that if you even as much as suspect the unbelievers, break the treaties and fight with them. It is NOT saying "fight them only if they fight you"

    My god , I really get frustrated dealing with ignorant and hateful people like you guys . Your problem is you hate Muslims and for this reason you will never see thing clear . The verses are talking about an enemy which IS ALREADY AT WAR with Muslims and those were Mushriks in Mecca the prophet had treaty with them thats why the verse says this

    The ones with whom you made a treaty but then they break their pledge every time, and they do not fear Allah .

    plus it does say fight them I do not see that in any vese which you quoted . it rather say

    So if you, [O Muhammad], gain dominance over them in war, disperse by [means of] them those behind them that perhaps they will be reminded.

    so in case you engage them in battle this is what you should do to them disperse them those behind . and why you stoped why you did not mention verse

    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

    Does this show that Muslim are looking for fights ? no Koran is saying if these people are interested in peace you should exstend your hands to them . While you are lying by saying koran is saying to fight them and no other deal

  273. but I found refrence to a fatwa, where the mullah says Jihad is the "pinnacle" of Islam and anything done for its purpose is not only ok, but becomes a duty in itself. As we all know Jihad is done to help Islam, so what that means is that lying too is ok since it helps Jihad which helps Islam.

    You must be really dumb an stupid person . Who told you that this fatwa was real ??? did he mention the name of scholar who issue this fatwa , are you sure that the person who asked the TV station was real Muslim he may be an enemy of Islam and invented this whole story that why he did not mention the name of the scholar who supposely issue the fatwa for him because his lies will not be exposed . Memri TV is ran by zionist jew from Iran who loves to put in his channel anything that will portray Muslims in bad image and never bother about authenticity in order to make fun of people like you

  274. Exactly what are you putting on the table as an alternative to bring masses out of bondage Ali?

    This is common logic. REASON. Why should the Muslims abandon what they choose to believe, if no alternative is in place, which is better than what they already have?

    And if there is, exactly what is it? Please tell us.

    Even if you said, come to Atheism as I can prove there is no God and Atheism will be your salvation, it might add weight. But you cannot even do that.

    However, the reality is you are not putting anything tangible on the table. Why should anyone listen to you? This is the question that needs to be asked.

    We both know you are in it for the money, so good luck. This first point is confirmed by when you left Iran and moved to Canada, as you allegedly claim!

  275. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Friday 3 August 2012, 9:22 am

    Image you pagan worship is haraam.

  276. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Friday 3 August 2012, 9:14 am

    I am certain being ex-Muslim you have not achieved anything extra-ordinary . And there are so many Muslims who have started from scratch and achieved. So what you blame Islam reducing Muslims is obvious lie coz you have not proved anything being ex-Muslim (anti-Muslim) except earning bread by criticizing Islam!

  277. It depends what you mean by success. If you mean physical wealth, of course there are Saudis who spend a million dollar in one night of partying (it is on youtube). I haven\’t seen that much money together except in movies. If by success you mean enlightenment, I don\’t think any Muslim has achieved it. Those who have, now call themselves former Muslims.

  278. Now you are talking like a true Muslim.

  279. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Friday 3 August 2012, 7:20 am

    Can you count number of Muslims living better life than you and having success in their life ? lol

  280. Out of the Muslims . . . Sina's hate for Arabs is particularly severe.

  281. Mo-Ham-MAD Criminal
    Friday 3 August 2012, 6:58 am

    [youtube rXMIQDVOs98 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXMIQDVOs98 youtube]

  282. Are you . . . or are you NOT a Hindu?

  283. "If you read my book you will be so embarrassed for what you wrote because you will realize I had psychoanalyzed you (as a Muslim) so perfectly. "

    hmm. . . pulling together random bits of Hadith and psychology. Yes it well worth the read. . . just to spot the inaccuracies, deliberate misquotes, poor writing and the laughable "psychology"?

    Would you like me to present a few examples?

  284. Mo-Ham-MAD Criminal
    Friday 3 August 2012, 6:53 am

    Indeed, Mo-Ham-MAD is far worse than Ravana and Kamsa.
    Mo-Ham-MAD is WORLD CLASS Criminal – cannot be compared with the Ravana and Kamsa who were still have heart though evil.

    Mo-Ham-MAD was heartless – he was paranoid inhuman killer machine.

    Look at today's Jihadist – they were resembling Mo-Ham-MAD – become killer machine through suicide bombing for the sake of 72 plastic virgin made in Mo-Ham-MAD imaginative sex store. Those brave Jihadist are blatantly deceived by Mo-Ham-MAD they they will have have ETERNAL SEX with 72 PLASTIC Virgin available in Mo-Ham-MAD SEX STORE !!!

    But many Muslim believe this lie, that's why suicide bombings are rampant – EVEN during RAMADHAN !!!

  285. This is delusional thinking that has brought Muslims into this misery that they find themselves. Chosen people,. heh!

    The source of this thinking is Muhammad’s narcissism that has passed to his followers. If you read my book you will be so embarrassed for what you wrote because you will realize I had psychoanalyzed you (as a Muslim) so perfectly.

  286. I feel sorry for Muslims because they have reduced themselves to scumbags. I am doing my share of work to save them so they can recover their humanity.

    Yes there are a few Arabs that I really love. Here is a short list. Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan and IK, the dedicated editor of FFI. There are many more, but that should do. I also love Haifa Wehbe

  287. \”Mohammed may have fooled the Muslims, but Ali Sina is fooling the likes of you without an alternative and no scripture, prophethood claims, miracles, magic and so forth. He is fooling you guys with delusional mumbo jumbo. At least Mohammed gave Scripture claiming it to be from God. What has Ali Sina put on the table?\”

    This is so funny. So since I don’t make any outlandish claims, don’t deceive people with pretenses of being a prophet, having a holy book and other jumbo mumbo, and invite Muslims to use their own brain and don’t be blind followers of another human being who could be a psychopath, I am fooling people. But Muhammad who maid megalomaniac claims about himself without ever providing any evidence was guiding people! What is wrong with your rational faculty dear Ali Sinner? Are you okay?

  288. The Hindu epics – the Ramayana and the Mahabharata have characters which are ruthless and unrighteous – like Ravana, Kamsa, etc. But Ravana and Kamsa, etc pale in comparison to the character and actions that is Mohammad.

    History will not have seen a greater impostor than Mohammad.

  289. zitouni, you told us to read Quran 8:61, but for some reason you didn't demand that we read the ayats prior to 8:60. Maybe you forgot, so I'll print them on your behalf

    Q 8:055 : For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

    Q 8:56 : They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah).

    Q 8:57 : If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

    Q 8.058 : If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

    Q 8:059 : And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

    Q 8:060 : Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

    zitouni comment : "Yes , but God says you fight them only if they fight you"
    ————
    It looks like the Quran is saying in these verses that if you even as much as suspect the unbelievers, break the treaties and fight with them. It is NOT saying "fight them only if they fight you"

  290. You considered logic and schematics, but you didn't consider human psychology. Humans have evolved in such a way that they pay a lot more attention to pictures, comics, and movies, than they do written stuff like books and articles. Dr. Sina's movie will very certainly be a lot more popular than anything else that he has done so far. There is no way Islam will be able to withstand this.

  291. "Even Ali Sina will testify to this. Why? Because he is 50% Muslim. He believes there is no God, so by doing so, he is already subscribing to the first part of the Muslim testimony. The actually testimony reads 'there is no God, except God'. Get it? "

    ROFLMAO!!!

  292. It is haram to animate creation as per Islam Astagphur Allah

  293. "Furthermore he is also 50% Muslim and always will be as long as he maintains his current position"

    'there is no God except God'.
    ———
    I believe there IS a God and it is the elephant-headed Ganesha. How many % Muslim am I?
    ***********

    BTW, the shahada reads as "There is no god except Allah". And if you read the Hadith and Sira, and then think a little, you will figure out why Muhammad told people to say shahada that way.

  294. Ok , Muslim guys,……….stop talking, and let the barking dogs
    answering their echo………..woof, woof

  295. You said it all.

  296. Seriously? Do you actually believe this rubbish?

    Islam has grown from 200 million in 1900 to 1.57 Billion in 2009. In approximately 109 years the percentage growth has octupled. This is most probably due to advancement in medicine and technology thus reducing mortality rates as I have mentioned elsewhere.

    Medicine and technology will further advance judging by the formulas we currently have, so the mortality rate will decrease further. Which means Islam will grow further. This is simple logic and schematics.

    People are not leaving Islam in droves and millions upon millions as Ali falsely claims. Islam and acceptance of a Supreme being is naturally in us. Even Ali Sina will testify to this. Why? Because he is 50% Muslim. He believes there is no God, so by doing so, he is already subscribing to the first part of the Muslim testimony. The actually testimony reads 'there is no God, except God'. Get it?

    But you can put your hand on your heart and say, a film produced by someone who claims to have self taught knowledge of Islam and Mohammed which he has been studying since 1994, will change the lives of nearly 2 billion people overnight and Islam will be eradicated within 20 years?

    The only option you have is unsubscribe from such delusional ideologies. Start thinking for yourself, make your own decisions and stop dreaming.

  297. But will something come up better? USA is the superpower and India is an emerging heavyweight.

    Time will tell, but not in our lifetimes. We will be long gone.

  298. Yes, I am a citizen. I do not like the democracy of either the US or India. They both have flaws. But I guess I will have to put up with it until someone comes up with something better.

  299. But Raj. What has Ali Sina got that no other human in the world has got which makes him unique and qualified to bring Muslims out of bondage in over 1400 years? Is he the Chosen Messiah and the 2nd coming of Jesus by any chance?

    Ali Sina is in it for the money despite what he says. Furthermore he is also 50% Muslim and always will be as long as he maintains his current position. Not because he used to be, but due to the ideology he follows now. We are talking currently. An atheist will always say there is no God, which for the record is the first part of the Muslim declaration. And the second part is 'except God'. The full declaration is 'there is no God except God'. So you see, he is not worlds apart from Muslims despite what rhetoric he spews.

    Mohammed may have fooled the Muslims, but Ali Sina is fooling the likes of you without an alternative and no scripture, prophethood claims, miracles, magic and so forth. He is fooling you guys with delusional mumbo jumbo. At least Mohammed gave Scripture claiming it to be from God. What has Ali Sina put on the table?

    He wants Muslims to come out of Islam and into what? Please elaborate.

    For any person to be as delusional as Ali Sina and hide behind the internet without ever showing his real self, he loves life. And why does he love life, because he is fleecing the public who support him via donations and purchases of his book. Why has he moved to Canada? Not because Iran wouldn't have him, but because he wants a better life with all the material perks. It's all about the money.

    This guy was begging and hoping to land a spot on TV.

    If you don't believe me, ask him.

  300. I don't think you have been paying attention to what Dr. Sina has been saying lately. He is working on a movie project that shows the true face of Muhammad. When the movie comes out then guess what? Islam's reputation, which already is quite bad, will be toast! You will be going around hiding your face so no one can see that you are Muslim. Facing even fellow Muslims will be difficult. There will be one thought on every Muslim's mind- What am I stuck in, and how do I get out of this? Life will be hell, Ali.

    There is only one option that you have. Leave Islam before it crashes down from the seventh heaven in front of your eyes. That is the only way you will be unaffected by Dr. Sina's movie.

  301. Who cares !

  302. You are wrong. Sina hates the Muslims
    and the Arabs. Be reasonable…….if
    he feels sorry for Muslims, he wouldn't
    call them scum bags.

    Sina and people like him, will never
    like an Arab or a Muslim even he leaves
    Islam or embrace another religion. You
    do not understand this, but the hate
    between the Iranians and the Arabs
    is historical.

  303. OK. Let's not beat around the bush and be apologetic about Islam anymore.

    So what if it talks about Jihad and so what if we Muslims are the chosen ones. Islam is here to stay and will never be defeated.

    Get over it.

    Exactly what can you enemies of Islam do about it? NOTHING!

  304. Are you a citizen of the USA yet? And how does the USA compare to the largest democracy in the world (India)?

  305. "Every fight in the cause and support of freedom in religion is a fight in the cause of God"
    ——-
    You are clearly doing taqiyya here. You need to replace "freedom in religion" with Islam. That would be more accurate.
    ********

    "and every fight to drive away oppression and support the oppressed against the oppressor, "
    ———
    The Taliban has been oppressing people (Muslims) in NW Pakistan and Afghanistan for almost two decades now. I don't remember Muslims having a public outcry against them. Why don't Muslims fight the Taliban, and drive them away?
    *********

    "or to support right and justice,"
    ———-
    To support and eventually establish Sharia, you mean.

  306. I grew up in a city in Punjab (India), but I have been living in the US for over a decade. The media here is not only NOT critical of Islam, but they make all efforts to accomodate Muslims and make Islam look good. For example, there are stories in the Chicago Tribune all the time about some nice Muslim families, and how they completely fit in the US.

    I did listen to Mullahs and other Islam-educated people. I am sorry but I was not convinced by what they said. There was always some serious incompatibility between what they said and what I observed about Muslims.

    Watch this video BTW (link below); this is from a Islamic cleric. Does he not know Arabic? Does he not know Islam? Why is he spewing hatred against the Jews, and then India, and then Russia?

    And if you are going to tell me that he doesn't know Islam, then you should be contacting HIM and tell him to learn Islam from a leading expert in Islam.
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2556.htm

  307. / Islam make Muslims or Muslims make Islam for Anti-Islamists ? /

    Irrelevant.

    It is Islam which makes hell out of the lives of Muslims and it is the Muslims who make hell out of the lives of non muslims. Period.

  308. I don't know what Dr. Sina would find, but I found refrence to a fatwa, where the mullah says Jihad is the "pinnacle" of Islam and anything done for its purpose is not only ok, but becomes a duty in itself. As we all know Jihad is done to help Islam, so what that means is that lying too is ok since it helps Jihad which helps Islam.
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3496.htm

  309. @ MoonShadow –

    [[I have no faith in any religion, but that
    does not mean I approve with your
    attitude, and call the world to destroy
    a certain religion and kill everyone who
    believes in it. Remember, all the people I
    love are Muslims.]]

    You have not understood Dr Ali Sina properly . What he says that one has to hate the ideology of Islam. But love the Muslims. He feels sorry for the Muslims as they have been misled into believing something false as the truth

    Dr. Sina is in fact helping the Muslims to realize the utter falsehood that is Islam and leave it behind and join the brotherhood of humanity.

  310. Can I knock off your teeth?

  311. Shameful Mo-Ham-MAD
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 8:47 pm

    Here is the true way of giving as taught by Jesus.
    When you give something good – do not announce to the whole world so that G-d know what you are doing and will give you the reward in due time.

    But if you give your charity to be known to the WHOLE WORLD – then you are receiving your reward ALREADY.

    Compare with what has been done by Mo-Ham-MAD who robbed the Caravans, kill the people except the woman, (women were considered as sex booty) and distributed the booty among his followers and Mo-Ham-MAD will take 20 percent from this robbing and murder.

  312. Shameful Mo-Ham-MAD
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 8:38 pm

    @ Aminriadh

    Just spread the NEWS that you have given your charity to the WHOLE WORLD.

    Do pray LOUDLY over the LOUD Speaker – so that people will respect you as the righteous man – while disturbing the neighborhood with noise pollution.

    That's what Mo-HAM-MAD do to hide his true identity as terrorist.

  313. Shameful Mo-Ham-MAD
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 7:46 pm

    Muslims, Just invite your best scholars to defend your Mo-Ham-MAD.
    Muslims is defeated already.
    It's only a matter of time when the giant of Islamic religion that worship Mo-Ham-MAD only become remembrance of the past.
    The time is fast coming that people will be ashamed to be called a Muslims.
    People will be disgust over Mo-Ham-MAD.
    Those who have "Mo-Ham-MAD" as their name will want to change it into another name.
    And the lawyers will be busy helping those who have "Mu-Ham-MAD" as their name to change their name into another name.

  314. _According to you" aminriadh " children do not fast at six" but Ayesha the prophets wife was expected to have sex with him at the age of six. Wot is better, fasting at the age of 6 or having sex at six. Children follow their parents and like to do wot their parents do. I live in the west and people don't force their children to fast at such a young age. It encourages the children to because they get lots of monetary rewards on Eidul Fitr when they fast. it is the muslims way of encourtaging their children. I cannot reveal to much about myself, often I have to change my name on this site out of fear that people who know me would put the pieces together. I feel my life is a clean slate now. I have made no direct claim that i have left Islam. I don't know what to call it yet. Like Alisina has explained their is different levels of emotions you experience on your journey to apostacy. Don't remember all but some is anger, depresssion, denial. I am still very much in the early stages. All I can say is that Dr Sina has planted that seed of doubt and that seed has already germinated. I can still say that I am in a state of denial.

  315. In Islam lying is permissible if the intention is to help Islam.

    Prove this to me from Koran and Hadiths

  316. Are you saying there are no verses in the Quran where the script is "Fight the non-believers"?

    Yes , but God says you fight them only if they fight you

    Your generalization of 'whites' was as wrong as generalizations about muslims.

    I did not say that all whites do that therefore you are wrong to accuse me of generealization because I did not use the word all .

    I said modern army,you really want to bring in crusades and Red Indians?

    US army in vietnam was considered modern army and drone attack in Pakistan TODAY has killed more civilians than combattants . why I cannot mention whites people genocides carried out by crusades and christians in n America

  317. " The problem is that they have never been a civilized people. They have been barbarians and they are still barbarians. "

    The very definition of racist. You are one sickening individual.

  318. "and keep repeating hoping one day it becomes the truth. "

    Wow! The originality – do you know how common this line is?

    - – -

    Unlike you – when I am suspicious of something . . . I can give reasons and explain why.

    Not merely leave meaningless sentences.

  319. lol. The more you talk, the more it becomes apparent what you are upto – Call the opposing person/view a 'lie', and 'fabrication', and keep repeating hoping one day it becomes the truth.

  320. Bollywood by any chance?

  321. Is the book free or do you have to pay for it?

  322. "I started fasting when I was six and many others have. "

    I have not come across that . . . 6 year old do NOT fast.

    - – -

    "I already said why I am letting them fast."

    A reason – that does not make sense AT ALL.

    - – -

    "I am also protecting them and myself as we live around many muslims."

    Yet no one expects kids to fast.

    - – -

    "Childeren have the tendency to confide in their friends, sharing secrets. come on,we were also kids like that. "

    Yet children pick up things like relationship problems between parents and generally do not talk about such things. . .

    - – -

    Let me ask you . . . what is your ethnic background? And where do you live – country wise?

  323. Fan Sina – I do NOT believe your story . . . as you claim you have left Islam and your children are small.

    So what the hell are they doing with "Muallims"?

  324. "If you believe they are honest (as I do), why are you arguing with me? And if you believe they are honest, why not believe that Ali Sina is honest too? "

    The above was logically fallacious.

    - – -

    Sina – I don NOT find him to be honest. Jeez! i have tested that here in these comments sections . . . what he spawns out – is another matter.

    - – -

    It was you who said you found his interpretations to be more or less correct. I asked for your basis . . . especially when talking about a PARTICULAR verse . . . 8:61 – he was less than truthful.

    - – -

  325. Muslims are smart in their stupidity – defending the terrorist name Mo-Ham-MAD.

  326. The Death Terrorist
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 1:59 pm

    [youtube 1uwOL4rB-go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go youtube]

  327. I am not making accusation about Ali sina I am saying fact about him . I am telling him to stop making himself big ass on Islam by bothering new convert while his credentiel on islam is big zero . If he cannot reply to my correction to his ignorance here then he is coward and ignorant. He knows that I am tough meat so he avoided me . I am the only person online who was able to expose his lies and prove that he cannot read arabic as he always claim on his website LOL so he is mad about that thats why he no longer takes any debate with me . If you want me to show you where I did it to him I will happy to do it

  328. I had read articles critical to Christianity, and Hinduism, but had never come across anything critical of Islam.

    I do not know where you live , but if you live in the west then your media is full of not only critical thing abouit islam , but propaganda and lies too

    The explanations of Dr. Sina were easy to understand, and all my observations about Muslims seemed to easily fit into his explanation.

    Sinal is nobody about Islam his credentiel on koran is zero . He does not even know the basic Arabic . you got the wrong teacher LOL. When I want to learn something on Christianity I picked the best and leading expert and the biggest name on biblical studies and christianity in the world in case that christians may acuse me of learning facts about their religion from people with zero credentiels . So I advise you to do the same thing with Islam and not going aroound reading anti Islamic website ran by people who have zero credentiels on Islam .

  329. What is the "cause of God", zitouni?

    The cause of God is the cause of justice. Every fight in the cause and support of freedom in religion is a fight in the cause of God; and every fight to drive away oppression and support the oppressed against the oppressor, or to support right and justice, is a fight in the cause of God. Every effort done to attain or protect justice, is also done in the cause of God. self defense , to protect your property , your freedom , your honor , your family

  330. You are sticking your nose in something which took people 30 years to learn. Interpretation of koran is left to the experts . when God says in the verse

    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

    Expert says precise verses are mother of the book which means the most important thing in the book and those verses that can have many meanings are few and not that important in Muslims salvation . All verses concerning fighting are clear verses . I do not know any verse concerning fighting which scholars considered to be unclear and say only God knows its meaning . Verses that only God knows its interpretation are verry very few whether you know their meaning or not does not affect anything . As for hadith is collection of Muhamed saying and not about Koran context. You get koran context from the koran itself .

  331. Muhammad- The Last Prophet
    [youtube lf5iBrGOhbo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf5iBrGOhbo youtube]

  332. You are not that good actor lol

  333. I started fasting when I was six and many others have. I already said why I am letting them fast. I am also protecting them and myself as we live around many muslims. Childeren have the tendency to confide in their friends, sharing secrets. come on,we were also kids like that.

  334. Dear knowthe enemy. Thanks for your advise. Also told them that they must not believe everything the Muallims tells them, they must verify it with me.

  335. Ah, the misunderstanding. From Merriam-Webster:

    <quote> Definition of CANNOT
    : can not
    — cannot but or cannot help but also cannot help
    : to be unable to do otherwise than <we cannot but wonder why>
    </quote>

    So my sentence means:

    in the sense that they are unable to do otherwise than to see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie

    That'll teach me to use quaint English expressions on an intermational forum.

    Now please read what I said with an open mind, and you'll see I am just trying to argue that we are all honest in what we believe.

    I see a parallel between Ali Sina who ascribes malice to people who read the quran and do not come to his conclusions (it's rotten and you should leave islam), and ardent muslims who ascribe malice to people who read the quran and do not come to their conclusions (it's divine and you should convert).

    I would like people to accept that religious texts can be (and have been) interpreted in almost any way, and that we should concentrate on living together instead of proving each other wrong.

    As is so clearly shown in these discussions, that is almost impossible. I mentioned Azizah al-Hibri and M. Zuhdi Jasser because they give a humanistic explanation to the quran. I believe they are honest, and I believe their approach can work.

  336. "Will you invite then the best scholar of Islam that you can find and ask him to come and expose me and the fallacies of my arguments. "

    So you can gain some "legitimacy" that you do not have. . . and "notoriety". Dream on.

    - – -

    Wouldn't in this case the best thing to do – is to simply ignore you?

  337. "Thousands and soon that number will rise to millions."

    All evidences – or lack there of – indicate this to be completely false and a lie.

    - – -

    "Their first reaction will be that the movie is all lies, but when they check the references that I will include in the movie in the form of subtitle, they will have no excuse but to accept that they are following a madman. "

    Keep dreaming . . . all signs are there. You could even convince West of this . . . and they are non Muslim!

  338. "She/he is transgender. When she is a woman, she posts as Julia, when she wakes up as man he posts as honest man."

    Ha ha ha . . . the worst excuse possible.

    Why come out after having been caught – and then say it?

    - – -

    It is just so easy to create as many identities as you want . . . for all we know – they are all yours.

    - – -

    Look at the quality of the comments . . . other than attempt at petty insults . . . there is nothing there.

  339. Are you saying there are no verses in the Quran where the script is "Fight the non-believers"?
    My argument is on those verses.I know 8:60 says "fight enemy".
    I don't see you countering my argument.Rather you're restating what I said.If a verse says "fight enemies" its interpretation fight enemies,or else only Allah knows what it means(as per Ali Imran verse 7).Similarly if a verse says "fight non-muslims" it means "fight non-muslims" or else only Allah knows its meaning.

    Your generalization of 'whites' was as wrong as generalizations about muslims.I was talking to a muslim lady yesterday who said she'd murder Taslima Nasreen and Ayan Hirsi Ali with her own hands if she had the power and that would be according to the Quran.Of course not every muslim would agree with these.So if I say all muslims are murderers in the making,I'll be as wrong as you were with the 'white' generalization.
    I said modern army,you really want to bring in crusades and Red Indians?You've to learn the basics of how a professional army is managed.Killing non-combatant civilians indiscriminately would be counter-productive to the desired results of a war.A professional army will never have that as strategy.I suggest read when the last carpet bombing was done,it'll be long ago.No army needs to do carpet bombing,thus wasting resources,after advanced satellites were discovered.You keep strong and wrong views,believe conspiracy theories,without following the various forces at play in these wars.

  340. "Will you invite then the best scholar of Islam that you can find and ask him to come and expose me and the fallacies of my arguments. "

    Again – the bloody "ego". This is the reason Dawkins gave for not debating with Harun Yahaya. . . .

    He said that this will give him legitimacy that he does not have. As he is no scientist.

    Now I am no fan of Dawkins . . . but that is true.

    - – -

    YOU – do NOT even have any standing in that respect.

  341. Facts are that All Anti-Islamists are agree on only interpretation that causes them maximum damage. So Militants want the same !

  342. "I am stating that someone who interprets the quran favourably does so in all honesty, without hypocrisy."

    I don't think that is what you were saying here. . .

    "(in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie)"

    - – -

    What you have said before was that person can see the negativity but consciously decide to put a positive spin on it. That is how I read this:

    "(in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie)"

    - – -

    Hence changed story.

    = = = =

    "If you believe they are honest (as I do), why are you arguing with me? "

    I am not arguing with you over – "Azizah al-Hibri and M. Zuhdi Jasser"

    I don't even know who they are or care . . . that hasn't come up once.

    - – -

    And if you believe they are honest, why not believe that Ali Sina is honest too?

    Sina's "honesty" DOES NOT DEPEND ON ANYONE ELSE. . . THAT IS ILLOGICAL

    I don't believe in his honesty . . . because of the examples of his DISHONESTY.

    - – -

    Why the hell are you so adamant to protect Sina? And that hocus pocus you have just pulled above – doesn't work with me.

  343. Exactly.
    The greater and lesser Jihad concept is from questionable Hadith references.

  344. How can I give examples? I am stating that someone who interprets the quran favourably does so in all honesty, without hypocrisy. I cannot look in a man's soul and see what his private thoughts are. I can accuse someone of hypocrisy, but I cannot prove it (unless the person doesn't walk his talk).

    Methinks you're interpreting the quran favourably. I affirm that you do so in all honesty. Are you trying to tell me you're actually a hypocrite?

    The purpose of my story about me reading the quran and honestly finding it less than godly, was to illustrate that it is not justified to conclude that people who don't share your view are hypocrites, even though to you the truth of your vision, to you, is obvious.

    Yesterday Azizah al-Hibri and M. Zuhdi Jasser (commissioners on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom) published an article in the Washington post in which they wrote:

    <quote> As commissioners, we continue to urge the U.S. government to hold countries accountable for violating international standards of human rights and religious freedom.

    During this most holy month of the Islamic calendar, we trust that all Muslims will reflect on how this freedom relates to their devotion to God as well as to the Koranic injunction: “Let there be no coercion in religion.”(2:256) Thus, faith can bolster the inalienable right to religious freedom for those of different religions and beliefs. It is our hope that in this holy month, Muslims will remember that God imparted to this world people of great diversity, including diversity in religions and beliefs. As the Koran states repeatedly, “Had God so willed, He could have made [all human beings] a single people…” (42:8). Furthermore, He created differences among us not to divide us but to have us learn from one another (49:13).

    It is also our hope during Ramadan that non-Muslims will take this opportunity to get to know better their Muslim neighbors and friends, and break bread with them at an evening iftar. Only through friendship and dialogue can we discard oppressive stereotypes and build communal bonds.

    Finally, it is our hope that all of us remember that the respect and freedom, including religious freedom, which we seek for ourselves are only as possible, protected, and meaningful as the freedoms we allow for others and help them achieve. </quote>

    In your opinion, do they honestly believe what they write, or are they lying to further the cause of islam (to become the dominant religion in the world and impose shariah on everybody).

    If you believe they are honest (as I do), why are you arguing with me? And if you believe they are honest, why not believe that Ali Sina is honest too?

    What is the truth when dealing with faith?

  345. The hadith used to support your view is this, I believe:
    "On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad."

    However, you will seldom find it's source attributed since it is not found in the Bukhari, Muslim, abu Dowud, etc.) By most it is classed as "Da'if" (weak) since in contradicts literally scores of hadith (including repititions) across the great collections as well as the Quran that say sword-jihad or "qital fi sabili allahi" (fighitng in theway of Allah) is the "pinnacle of Islam" (to quote a Fatwa). Other scholars class it as "Maudu" (fabricated).
    However, it's source is this: "The History of Baghdad", Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, an 11th-century Islamic scholar, referenced a statement by the companion of Muhammad Jabir ibn Abd-Allah who said "The prophet said … etc."
    Thus the first time this hadith appears (unless anyone knows better) is in the "History of Baghdad", but the author states that it is a fabriciated (Maudu) hadith (S. Hassan, Kashf al-Khafa, no. 2276; A. Faisal, Ibn Taymiyahh also says the same.)
    This hadith appears in c.1050 A.D. approximately 200 years after the major Sunni Hadith collections, which suggests that despite a lifetime of hadith research (Bukhari and Muslim certainly) they either did not know of it, or else had rejected it as "unsound" – probably the latter.

    There are also Sahih hadith that refer to Mohammed telling women to make Hajj (or prayer) as their Jihad which some use to support the idea that "greater jihad" is "jihad bil nafs" (jihad of he soul), but here the point it that this is specified for women, not one of these hadith (that I am aware of) extends this idea to men.
    Even if such a hadith is found, it would still be "da'if" since it would be contradicted by all the other hadith and the Quran.

    Thus it seems a little odd, if you'll pardon my saying so, to base a belief on a hadith that is variously omitted (as not fulfilling the requirements of Sahih or Hassan hadith), very late and/or declared fabricated.

  346. Mo-HAM-MAD Criminal
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 9:48 am

    Islam cannot be defended. Mo-Ham-Mad was a lunatic war monger who is worse than Hitler. Mo-Ham-MAD cannot be a prophet because he was a true CRIMINAL.

    Mo-Ham-MAD gang was founding by robbing Caravans. Mo-HAM-MAD was a coward like a hyena who robbed weak and defenseless Caravan and given the booty in the form of materials booty and sex booty – that by giving them 80% and the 20 % must be given to Mo-Ham-MAD as the gang leader.

    Mo-HAM-MAD even created imaginative Booty by promise his followers 72 virgins after they died – and thus make them even willing to commit suicide to gain this imaginative virgin – and make them not afraid of death because Mo-HAM-MAD said allah – which is idol created by Mo-HAM-MAD and certainly not the true G-d – will give them 72 virgin so that they can have ETERNAL SEX with the forever virgin "plastic" girls. (only plastic will remain virgin after being molested – it's available in many sex store).

    Mo-Ham-MAD, the greatest impostor, have created fearless jihadist because they hungry for sex booty with plastic virgin which are available in heaven's plastic sex store provided by Mo-Ham-MAD imagination of after life to drive the jihadist to kill people for their beloved sex hungry pedophile liar prophet.

  347. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 9:29 am

    No issues but flattering self isn't psychotic !!!
    Now don't tell me that transgenders have natural DID lol

  348. Bill . . .

    "What I was saying is that people who interpret the quran in a positive way are not doing so while knowing full well that it is evil."

    This is same as:

    "(in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie)"

    - – -

    I have repeatedly asked you for examples . . . and you aint got any to back up your claims.

    - – -

    " And Ali Sina is quite sincere about his distaste for the quran and when he reads it, he sees the words of a psychopath. "

    huh? And why did you say this . . . what was it meant to demonstrate? I already know what Sina thinks of the Quran. I think I can work that one out myself!

    - – -

    "I read the quran and it did not strike me as the word of god. I did not say to myself: the quran is so perfect, so poetic, so coherent, so powerful that no-one could ever produce a surat that could be mistaken for a surat from the quran, so it is obviously the work of god as it says about itself."

    Doh! Read this back to yourself – i think you will have the Homer Simpson moment… or did.

    - – -

    "We're both honest in what we see, but we start from different viewpoints and have different backgrounds. In the absence of incontrovertible proof, neither of us is entitled to force his belief on the other. "

    Yes . . . But I fail to see what you have added in answer to what I have asked. I genuinely do not get the purpose of this whole post.

    - – -

    "And Ali Sina is quite sincere about his distaste for the quran and when he reads it, he sees the words of a psychopath. "

    But I do question his sincerity . . . having come across one too many times "fiddling" with the truth.

  349. He He – If "we" are that stupid . . . why is it that it YOU who is struggling to say anything? What bit petty of insults? That is sign of losing . . . you've lost control of yourself.

  350. \” you believe all Muslims brains make no sense, the Muslims believe your brain makes no sense.\”
    Will you invite then the best scholar of Islam that you can find and ask him to come and expose me and the fallacies of my arguments.

  351. Come on Sina . . . what kind of cowardice is this? Or am I lying again? Where has that comments widget gone from the sidebar?

  352. And whilst we are it . . . where is Sina's tongue gone now . . . he was caught fiddling with the truth here . . . either that or he isn't aware of even the basics of Islam.

    - – -

    He was DELIBERATELY misleading on Zakah. . . point well proven.

    - – -

    How are you going to prop him up now?

  353. I get very irritated when someone refuses
    to understand me. I said over and over
    that I have no faith in any religion, but that
    does not mean I approve with your
    attitude, and call the world to destroy
    a certain religion and kill everyone who
    believes in it. Remember, all the people I
    love are Muslims. There are radicals in all
    religions, and all religions are nasty, all of
    them have vices.

    I read the story of Safiya long long time ago,
    and if it is literally true, of course it will make
    me sick. But, I suspect everyone, including
    you, and I do not believe that your goal is
    destroy "evil", and I strongly believe that
    there is a personal gain behind all the
    goals you are trying to achieve, because
    you emphasise on Islam only, and disregard
    the evil in the other religions.
    Nothing makes me mad more that seeing
    the injustice in control.

  354. "lol! You can bray all you want about how my assertions regarding Quran's claim of 'earth is flat' is nothing but ignorance, but those who read the 'holy' book will conclude exactly that – that earth is flat. "

    How and why? That is the question . .. that you failed at isn't it? What is that you said. . . that you are not a "professional"

    Does "spreading out" something means flat to you?

    - – -

    Simply repeating your assertions make you look foolish

    - – -

    And then of course! You had to put in a diversionary link. That is to be expected from "sheep".

  355. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 7:43 am

    Are you expecting Muslims only to defend when you attack (heart , jugular whatever visceral parts). A group may try to defend but Muslims will counter attack which is prescribed as "Jihad ". Now you may know why there is necessity of jihad in Islam.

    In next stage you may need military or something lol

    Show is on !!!

  356. She/he is transgender. When she is a woman, she posts as Julia, when she wakes up as man he posts as honest man. :)

  357. No! That is impossible. You can’t win Islam like that. That is why no one has won over Islam.

    You can’t stop Islam by closing down mosques, by banning the mullahs, by attacking the practices of Muslims or by any other means. All these have been tried. But as history proves they have all failed. See what happened in Turkey and in Iran. After Ataturk and Reza Shah virtually banned all the practices of Islam in their respective countries Islam rose its head again. All plans are domed to fail. Mine is the only one that will succeed. That is because I go after the jugular vein of Islam. I aim at its heart. I expose Muhammad. Once that criminal is discredited, Islam will be finished – this time for good!

  358. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 6:50 am

    lol CAPS UP caps down, assertion graphology shows Julia is Honest Man!

  359. Thanks Jonmc, this response of yours I liked very much.

    I learned again a few better-worded arguments from you and I remembered that you are an expert (in my mind) on the situation on the ground, regarding what Muslims think and say and who they side with and against.

  360. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 6:20 am

    Average age of anti-Islamists is 60-70?!!!

  361. ᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌
    Thursday 2 August 2012, 6:08 am

    lol Do you need little task ? can you end athan of only 2 mosques ?

  362. \”Exactly how many Muslims have you broken out of bondage since you started your crusade? \”
    Thousands and soon that number will rise to millions. My movie is the nail in the coffin of Islam. It is impossible for a Muslim to watch it and not have his or her faith shaken. Their first reaction will be that the movie is all lies, but when they check the references that I will include in the movie in the form of subtitle, they will have no excuse but to accept that they are following a madman. Islam\’s end is near dear Sinner.

  363. But your logic and rationale is in a league of it's own Sina. You cannot make sweeping statements about Muslims on one hand and refuse to acknowledge your own short comings on the other. Your opinions and views are subjective. Just like you believe all Muslims brains make no sense, the Muslims believe your brain makes no sense. Six of one and half a dozen of the other I'm afraid!

    Exactly how many Muslims have you broken out of bondage since you started your crusade? And exactly how many people have become Muslims since your crusade? You will see that far more have accepted Islam, than those who have left Islam, despite what you say or do.

    You have only a fixed number of years left of your life, after which, you will be long gone and forgotten, similar to every other human being on this earth. Death comes to us all at one stage or another and no one lives forever. So exactly what legacy will you leave behind and who will pick up the baton after you are gone?

    The reality is, far more people are accepting Islam around the globe than are leaving Islam. You are 'fighting' a losing battle and you know it deep down. In business terms, if you was losing more than you was making, how long would you continue in the business? This is logical thinking and reality. Once you go bankrupt, it becomes too late. People go into business to make and not lose.

    You are not a wealthy philanthropist doing this from the goodness of your heart. You have a fixed agenda and want it completed at any cost. In other words you are blindly possessed, just like the Muslims you want to break free. There is no difference between you and them. Both sides are blindly possessed albeit for different reasons and each side believes to be right.

    What you are doing is not asking people to think for themselves, but follow your way and warped views in order to become hate mongers. You clearly have an agenda and cannot sleep at night thus the hatred. You claim to be an Iranian, but have no problem with the Institutions that clearly despise your people. Do you also despise Iranians or are you proud of your Iranian roots?

    You make a living out of donations for your hate mongering and are no different to an Evangelical fleecing his flock or a Mullah scamming his followers.

    Clearly you have a good thing going which puts food on the table and you will be an idiot to walk away from it. This is your cash cow regardless of how much you deny it and plead poverty. You have secret and open donations which are disclosed and not disclosed. Which Iranian do you know that is 100% honest and transparent? Stereotyping can work both ways.

    We all know, this is your full time job, so keep at it. It doesn't make an iota of difference to Islam, as far more wealthier, powerful, intellectual and hateful people have come bashing Islam than you in the past and Islam is still here and growing in numbers, and not decreasing. However, you all of a sudden after 14 centuries of history and the conclusion of historiographers, can now claim to educate everyone on the menace of Islam itself as everyone before you got it all wrong. But only you are right. That ratio will make you say 1 in a billion?

    You cannot reverse the trend and neither can you make a difference. Get over it. You can never match Abu Lahab in your hatred or do you believe you can? Period.

    When a dog is barking, there’s no wisdom in barking back. When people start talking obnoxiously and ignorantly the worst thing one can do is respond. (however in your case there is always a rule for an exception). We have to learn to recognize a bark for a bark and an intellectual criticism as an intellectual criticism.

    Just like when you want to insult someone, you call them Muslim by your own admission, but you fail to realise that you will always be 50% Muslim. Why? Because you believe 'there is no God'. Which as you know, is the first part of the Shahaada. The only element in you becoming 100% Muslim again, is 'except God'.

    There is no God except God. Is this not the statement to become Muslim?

    Or do you accept there is a God?

    Whichever way you dress up your views, you will always be 50% Muslim at worst. You might be a self avowed enemy of Islam, but we can have comfort that you are half Muslim thus the term 'enemy from within'.

    When you are check mated, you cannot win.

  364. Occupationally, I smell a waft of humanity in you. This is your Achilles heel. People with conscience will lose their faith in Islam sooner or later. One cannot leave in this cognitive dissonance forever. Please read this story and comment.
    http://alisina.org/safiyah-the-jewish-wife-of-muhammad/
    Comment in that page, not here. What do you think about it? Do you approve or disapprove or try to avoid the question by making moral relativistic arguments?

  365. Excuse me…..who is this javeline
    in the picture?

  366. "2:190-193 Fight in the cause of God, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors"
    ——–

    What is the "cause of God", zitouni?

  367. I started looking for a Islam critical site AFTER I had a strong feeling that the explanations of media regarding terrorism seemed insufficient, and I was troubled by what I saw/felt about Muslims. I had a strong suspicion that there was something about Islam/Muslims that I did not know. Then one day I realized that I had read articles critical to Christianity, and Hinduism, but had never come across anything critical of Islam.

    So I googled 'Islam criticism' and after going through a handful of entries, came across faithfreedom. The explanations of Dr. Sina were easy to understand, and all my observations about Muslims seemed to easily fit into his explanation. The more I read, the more clear the picture became. I checked out some random Islamic websites just to see I wasn't missing anything but none was able to convince me. It was during this time that I also came across jihadwatch.org (back then they also had dhimmiwatch.org). So my dear zitouni, I know enough that taqiyya will not work on me.

  368. Jihad, according to Mo-Ham-Mad means robbing the Caravan's people and killed them except the woman – which will be used as sex booty to all his murderous gang followers.

    And Mo-Ham-Mad even promise them eternal sex with 72 virgin in heaven.

    And even to this day – the Jihadis or motivated to kill through suicide bombing to get this 72 virgin as promised by Mo-Ham-MAD to those who are willing to rob the caravan.

    Just read the Sahih hadist by Bukhari and Islam ;) for the prove …

  369. Islam is a religion of terror. Try to say that Koran or Hadist is not valid in Pakistan, you will be instantly killed by the angry mob who want to defend their idol – Mo-ham-Mad.

  370. Is there any logic in what you said? How old are you Joker, 12 years?
    I can't see how Sina can be proud of his fans,
    I guess birds of a feather flock together

  371. I would seem that I wasn't clear enough. Let me try again.

    What I was saying is that people who interpret the quran in a positive way are not doing so while knowing full well that it is evil. Neither do non-muslims who do not accept the quran as the word of god reject it whilst having accepted its divine origin, a divine origin which is so self-evident to a good muslim. And Ali Sina is quite sincere about his distaste for the quran and when he reads it, he sees the words of a psychopath.

    Maybe an example will help. I read the quran and it did not strike me as the word of god. I did not say to myself: the quran is so perfect, so poetic, so coherent, so powerful that no-one could ever produce a surat that could be mistaken for a surat from the quran, so it is obviously the work of god as it says about itself. BUT! I am an atheist and thus I will say the quran is not divine, and islam is a fraud. That would qualify me as a dishonest person.

    Similarly, I do not think that you, when you read the quran, say to yourself: obviously, Muhammad was a nasty piece of work, and the quran is obviously man-made, BUT I am a muslim and hence I must sugar-coat the verses so that I can continue to get booty by attacking the kuffar.

    We're both honest in what we see, but we start from different viewpoints and have different backgrounds. In the absence of incontrovertible proof, neither of us is entitled to force his belief on the other.

    This means that I should not force you to abandon your belief, and you should not force your belief on me, EVEN if that is one of the teachings of your religion.

    Are we in agreement?

  372. أسأل الله عز وجل ان يحصي اعداء الاسلام عددا وان يقتلهم بددا وان لا يبقي منهم احدا

    Just a little spell

  373. I will have to agree with you in this part.
    I always felt very sorry to see the multitude
    of elderly and poor people using the savings
    of their lives to go to Hajj just to make the
    Saudis richer and richer.

  374. You don't clarify anything with that comment.Even if it's interpretation and not meaning,the argument stands.There is no help-book for Quran,Hadith can give you only the context.The verse says-either any verse of Quran is a clear verse,or else only Allah knows its interpretation.Either way,interpreting non-muslims as enemies would be wrong.Either non-muslims mean non-muslims(in case of a clear verse),so the verses are for fighting non-muslims.Or else "only Allah" knows what the interpretation is.In which case you can never claim to know its interpretation,because you'd be equating yourself with Allah.

  375. Occupation of muslim lands" is just an excuse that they use; it is not the real reason. The real reason why they fight, attack, and indulge in terrorism, is because it is commanded by Islam to fight all kafirs until they are killed or become dhimmis.

    This is what happens when you frequent website as this lead by an ignorant man called Ali Sina. Your knowledge of Islam is zero . Here is what Allah says in koran about fighting

    2:190-193 Fight in the cause of God, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

  376. You missed the sole point that I made.
    I said you are beating your own drum, and accusing Sina of the same.
    That is hypocrisy.I never said one has the right to do it and the other doesn't.All I'm saying is that a sieve perhaps doesn't have too much right to accuse the needle of having holes,

    Again you fail to read and understand my comment.I said "anyone is welcome to refute him".If you can refute him with solid arguments,please do.I don't take his, or for that matter anybody'sm words as 'commandments'.I go back and check.If they tally, I agree. If they don't, I disagree.I think even Sina wouldn't like that his words be taken as commandments. I've disagreed with him on a few topics in this forum.

  377. lol! You can bray all you want about how my assertions regarding Quran's claim of 'earth is flat' is nothing but ignorance, but those who read the 'holy' book will conclude exactly that – that earth is flat.

    btw, while you try to tarnish the good reputation of Robert Spencer as 'fanatical christian', here is what your fellow brothers are doing to minorities in Pakistan:

    Christian nurses deliberately poisoned because of their faith

  378. What name calling? Aren't you a Islamodefender (defender of Islam)? But you won't be able to do defend Islam with your petty insults (or even without any insults)! so keep burning with anger.

  379. You said it right! "Occupation of muslim lands" is just an excuse that they use; it is not the real reason. The real reason why they fight, attack, and indulge in terrorism, is because it is commanded by Islam to fight all kafirs until they are killed or become dhimmis.

    btw, I agree that US/NATO soldiers should leave all Islamic lands. The lives of our soldiers are too precious to waste on jihad-supporting Muslims.

  380. "Why would little kids at that age even need weening of Islam?"
    ———-
    Because if people don't ween kids off Islam, they are at a high risk of becoming radicals and jehadis, when they grow up.
    One does not need a PhD in Logic to figure that one out!

  381. Like I have said . . . as long as it sounds anti-Muslim – you will swallow it.

    - – -

    Why would little kids at that age even need weening of Islam?

    Do kids of that age even fast?

    - – -

  382. "I don't want to confuse them at such a young age, so I'm letting them fast. "

    No one lets little children fast . . . if they at such a " such a young age"

    – - –

    Your story does NOT make sense – you claim to be an ex Muslim – yet you have said you were fasting?

    Why?

    Then you are saying – you are letting your kids fast?

    - – -

  383. Taking your sections in order:
    #1. An alternative view would be that you are projecting your own attitudes onto others. You state that id we had “power” we would kill Muslims. Given how many Muslims “empower” themselves with guns and kill others (both Muslim and non-Muslim) then this seems more like your view of “power” – i.e. might makes right – than ours.
    Viz-a-viz drone attacks: yes they kill innocent people, but what of suicide bombings in market-places, mosques etc. Don't they kill innocent people too? (And since both groups of victims are usually Muslim, they must be equally “innocent” in your eyes.) Yet do you worry about that?
    Frankly many us dislike any innocent death – of any religion or none – yet when it comes to random slaughter Muslims leave the rest of in their wakes since they deliberately target innocent civilians, people at prayer etc. whereas we target terrorists.
    Yes we “insult” Muslims and your are right it is (mostly) “nothing to us”. In the first place Muslims are, in comparison to the rest of humanity hyper-sensitive insult takers. Anything critical of Islam/Mohammed is “insulting”. Where the Koran and Mohammed subjected to the sort of “insulting” scrutiny that is de-jeur for the rest of us, then I'm sure many Muslims would furiously explode – without the aid of explosive vests.
    #2. It would help if you didn't pluck little sections of comments out, as Demsci explains below. Thus this isn't about hate, it's about a genuine inability on the part of non-Muslims to identify the purported “moderates”. Note that this is a problem that afflicts governments too. In the U.K. the government recently cut finding to a number of Islamic “partner” organisations when it was found that far from promoting the Gov.t's “prevent” anti-radicalisation strategy, these organisations were promoting or had links to Islamist organisations.
    #3. You claim that this is “a bizarre and frankly appalling and disgusting point to make”. From what I wrote above one may see that that it isn't bizarre – though you may be appalled and disgusted if you wish, rather it is a simple fact. If a government with its investigative resources can't “get it right” in choosing which Islamic groups to work with and given that a survey of American mosques showed that 80% supported Islamism (similar surveys show the same in Europe) and that so often the “denunciation” of terrorism comes with a rider, usually relating to Palestine – as if this can explain people being killed in Europe for instance – then the point it valid and stands.
    To be fair, I understand why non-violent Muslims are so often silent: they know that their violent “brothers” will kill them too for lack of zeal (i.e. being a “dayouth”) and death is the Shariah punishment for this “crime” (no surprise there), or else they will declare “Takfir” (i.e. call them apostates) and death is (surprise, surprise) the Shariah punishment for apostasy. Come to that their violent brothers will kill them just for being the wrong sort of Muslim, hence the Sunni/Shia fratricide, the Wahhabis killing both Shias and “lax” Sunnis and all the above killing the Ahmadhis.
    No wonder non-violent Muslims fear to speak out, who wants to invite a death-sentence on their head?
    #4. Again you are conflating two separate issues: we don't hate Muslims, but I will grant that we do “hate” (in the sense of consider vile, repugnant, very dangerous, regressive, repressive, oppressive, uncivilised, de-civilising, utterly and implacably opposed to all we hold dear) the ideology of Islam itself.
    Funnily enough, the truth is something we also hold dear. This is why we use the Koran and Sunnah to illustrate our points and demonstrate that far from being “wack-jobs” the Islamists are following teachings within Islam.
    What is always, well sad, frankly, is that people who object to Islam-critics always try to smear their opponents as “Islamophobes”, “hate-mongers” etc. in a crude (in several senses) attempt to silence and discredit. If you want to hear real hate-mongering consider what comes out of so many Sheikhs mouths.
    There is “hate” going around but it would seem that the Muslims are the ones doing it since they hate their own “brothers” will a literally killing passion.

  384. My suggestion is to raise your kids in such a way so that they don't get too attached to Islam, and keep a liberal mind towards other ways of thinkings.
    You can achieve that by telling them lots of stories (that fit their age) because stories relax them, and this 'relax' tendency stays as they grow up to become adults. Secondly, create an environment so that they don't take Islam too seriously. E.g make mullah jokes with them fairly often. Third, teach them how other people think, by giving them others' stories to read, or their movies to watch. This will keep them open minded. That way, when you do tell them the truth about Islam, they will not be shocked to sickness, and will take the transition to post-Isam easy.

  385. "If you knew how to think and question, you wouldn't even be following Islam any more. "

    And this coming from someone who admitted he wasn't good enough. . . You claimed to have understood things but just couldn't convey.

    Fact is you know full well – that your assertions that Quran terms the earth as flat are nothing more than your own ignorance and

    You claimed you understood the material . . . but just couldn't explain or talk about it.

    When it became apparent you little hocus pocus was falling down – you went silent.

    All you could do was point towards Christian material and claim this was obvious. . . .

    - – -

    "You only portray a facade of being a logical, thinking person. In reality, you can't figure out a thing. "

    Such as? . . . you repeatedly make mere assertions . . . without any evidence or proof?

    If what you say is so true . . . then why do you lack evidence and proof for your claims? Just like your master Sina.

    What is ithat you have figured out . . . and we will explore that subject?

    Or are you going to start bleating . . . that you aint no "professional"

    Well if you aint . . . then get out of the way.

  386. "Abdurrahman Wahid didn't believe he was misinterpreting the quran, he was merely not interpreting in the same way as Ali Sina. "

    Yeah? Problem is Sina isn't a Muslim. He doesn't believe or practice what the Quran says. And he is actively against it.

    So what do his interpretations count for?

    You seem to set quite a bit by Sina's interpretations. . . but when questioned . . . you haven't managed an answer as yet.

    - – -

    "And it is probable that Muhammad was a nasty character, and that the quran contains verses that originated in hatred, gred, envy and lust."

    Or it is probable that he wasn't. I pointed towards Sina's skullduggery – yet throwing in your towel of support . . . your lucid tongue has gone quiet. Why?

    You are a pretty sane man. . . but you do half come with some cock and bull.

  387. "What you are saying is – don't think and QUESTION – Bull**** from Sina . . . just accept it as is – and become a sheep like you. Ha Ha. . . you really are a child aren't you"
    ———–
    If you knew how to think and question, you wouldn't even be following Islam any more. You only portray a facade of being a logical, thinking person. In reality, you can't figure out a thing.

  388. "you will find out the hard way soon. "

    What does that mean?

    - – -

    "We are not ignorant."

    Who is "we". . . why don't you speak about your own self. . . rather than going to we.

    Sonny – you need education . . . that is a bit obvious. . . given your history of remarks.

    - – -

    "Radicals that according to Islamodefenders (like yourself) are ignorant of real 'peaceful' Islam"

    Yeah yeah . . . name calling. When it came down to actual substance . . . what did you bleat. .. I am not a "professional". But when it comes to making petty remarks . . . you are well up for it.

    - – -

    You even admitted you ain't good enough . . . what is more to say?

  389. It doesn't need to correspond to modern moral norms because it originated in days where these norms weren't applicable. So they have to, and do, evolve, as I said.

    The quran forbids interpretation, allows and encourages interpretation by experts, says that religion is between a man and his god only, to be kind to non-believers, to kill non-believers, etc., etc.. It's all a matter of finding the appropriate verse, and ignoring the non-appropriate ones. Abdurrahman Wahid didn't believe he was misinterpreting the quran, he was merely not interpreting in the same way as Ali Sina.

    And it is probable that Muhammad was a nasty character, and that the quran contains verses that originated in hatred, gred, envy and lust. That doesn't mean it cannot be interpreted to be grand, moral, kind and generous. Wahid did it. Lots of people did it and do it. Let's give them the thumbs up.

  390. "Julia" isn't you pretending by any chance?"
    ———-
    No I am not Julia. And whether you want to believe me or not, you will find out the hard way soon.
    **********

    "The ignorant tend to be far more dangerous. . ."
    ———–
    We are not ignorant. But if you understand that concept then it should be easy for you to figure out why FFI is fighting the radicals. Radicals that according to Islamodefenders (like yourself) are ignorant of real 'peaceful' Islam

  391. Oh . . . Is that why you have academic standings of less than zero?

    Anyone reviewing that book? Whose praises you have to sing sky high?

  392. ""The next verse says it they surrender, and submit and don\'t fight back to defend themselves then leave them alone. There is no need to kill them. Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered. " "

    Yet . . . the next verse does not say that . . . this what the next verse says:

    8:61 says. . . "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing."

    - – -

    Why is it that you lied about what the next verse says?

    - – -

    Then this:

    "Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered. "

    Where? References . . . and lets check it out.

    - – -

    "Did the Jews of Khaybar attack Muslims or was it the other way round? Did the Bani Mustaliq attack Muslims? Did the small town of Fadak attack Muslims? Did the Bani Jaun attack Muslims. Did the Hawazin attack Muslims? Did the Byzantine attack Muslims? Muhammad raided these people, sometimes with no warning and killed them when they were unarmed not ready for war. "

    Meaningless . .. unless you start putting references next to your claims.

    - – -

    If it anything like you little fabrication above . . . well.

  393. You know Islam better than Muslims, you may be following true Islam and Muslims may not be following true Islam. Why don't you guide them and ask them to follow true Islam ?

  394. "Don\'t just take one verse and try to twist its meaning. "

    You what? The perosn asked you about the next verse. . . you were specifically speaking about that ONE VERSE. . . I didn't twist anything . . . you did. All I did was paste the verse. . . Lo and behold! It did not match what you were claiming. . .

    - – -

    I have then asked you for references of your claim . . . yet you have started this ranting and raving ALL OVER AGAIN. . .

    Wasn't your earlier spiel about "evidence" all bullshit?

    - – -

    "Don\'t defend a lie. I know the truth is painful but you can\'t hide your head in the sand. Either accept that your prophet was a criminal and like your jihadi brothers be proud of following a criminal or leave Islam. This deception that you are playing is self deception. You are not among the non-Muslims who have no clue. Here we know Islam better than Muslims. "

    You are the one who lied about a verse. . . I have highlighted that above . . . what do you do?

    Come out out with lots of BS. If you were even remotely truthful . . . you wouldn't have such trouble giving references – would you?

    - – -

    "Who was raiding whom? It was always Muhammad who raided other populations."

    No it wasn't. Your claims – the onus of evidence is upon you . . . either put up or shut up.

    - – -

    This ranting and raving doesn't work . . . Jeez!

  395. Don\’t just take one verse and try to twist its meaning. Look at the history of early Islam. Who was raiding whom? It was always Muhammad who raided other populations. Did the Jews of Khaybar attack Muslims or was it the other way round? Did the Bani Mustaliq attack Muslims? Did the small town of Fadak attack Muslims? Did the Bani Jaun attack Muslims. Did the Hawazin attack Muslims? Did the Byzantine attack Muslims? Muhammad raided these people, sometimes with no warning and killed them when they were unarmed not ready for war.

    Don\’t defend a lie. I know the truth is painful but you can\’t hide your head in the sand. Either accept that your prophet was a criminal and like your jihadi brothers be proud of following a criminal or leave Islam. This deception that you are playing is self deception. You are not among the non-Muslims who have no clue. Here we know Islam better than Muslims.

  396. "An old religion doesn't need to conform to the moral code of the day".

    Why not? What makes religions immune to criticism???

    "On the whole, and contrary to what you say, religions evolve all the time. Today's christianity is not the christianty of the 14th century, and it was nothing like that of the 2nd century".

    Christianity has had 800 years of stagnation, and only after countless scientists were accused of heresy and killed, did it evolve into what we see today. But even today traditional christians are conservative and resisting new ideas. If religions evolve, it is because people who dare to question the old beliefs. If it weren't for these brave individuals, religion would just stay the same.

    Islam has never allowed for scientific reforms to happen. If some muslims have managed to contribute to science, it is because they found inspiration outside of Islam/quran. But generally speaking, there arent that many scientists from muslim countries compared to other religions. This is not surprising, as Islam leaves no room for creative thinking.

    "There is nothing in the islamic foundational texts that stops it from being tolerant".

    What about the verses that specifically order muslims to kill and torture kaffirs? Also, quran condemns all kaffirs to hell and eternal punishment in the most horrible ways. Furthermore, quran denigrates women and explicitly states that they are stupid and going to hell. I think all these things are incredibly intolerant. And they can be found in Islam's foundational texts.

    "You can see for yourself how people on this forum differ on the interpretation of the quran. Those who see the positive in the verses are not malicious (in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie), but quite authentic in their positive interpretation".

    The quran forbids interpretation. If people chose to interpret it in their own ways they go against Islam and straight to hell. Also, you cannot chose to ignore the violent parts only to focus on what is left. This makes you a good human, but a bad muslim.

  397. The ignorant is your mentor Ali Sina

  398. Why dont you say the same thing to Ali Sina concerning insulting Muslims and their prophet. You are trying to say he has the right to do it , but I do not . If you know that he is not scholar and yet you are taking seriously what he writes then you msut be an idiot person LOL

  399. All Muslims who are fighting now the west their excuse is ocupation of Muslim land which is secular excuse and not religious one . you want me to conatct them and tell them to stop fighting the ocupation why dont you contact the other side and tell them to get out of the ocupied territories which has started the conflict on the fist place .

  400. How do you know that? Did Allah say that? In his evil book? Where?

    And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged. verse 8 60

  401. So either these fighting verses are specific or unspecific.
    1.If they are specific,they mean fight the non-believers,not the enemy as you are implying.If it was a clear verse, it would have written enemy and not non-believers.

    The problem with you is you are relying on ignorant man called Ali Sina to learn facts about koran . He did not even quote the entire verse 8 60 and you had no problem with that . Here is the verse where there is no mention of non believers in it , but the word enemy in stead

    And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

    Mistake 1: You said just whites.Most whites who don't go around killing civilians.
    Mistake 2: You seriously think that a modern army will have a strategy of killing civilians

    Oh Really Serb in Bosnia and Kosovo, whites in Americas and the wipping out millions of native indians , Crusades , colonial wars , spanish inquistion , Nazis , carpert bombing in vietnam and combodia, faluja massacre in Iraq , and the list can on on

  402. Hate monger always accept inferiority to whom he hate !

  403. Tell me more how much you are suffering really???

  404. Is it a honest attempt to say what readers will see ? lol

  405. another ignorant man like Ali Sina . Millions of Jews and christians lived and died in Muslim ruled Midles east for the past 1400 years. Before the creation of Israel there were more than million jews in arab world alone and there are still more than 20 M Christians live in arab world alone

  406. Laughing can ease your frustrations! lol

  407. "(in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie)"

    Proof is in the pudding. . . so far you have not qualified a single such statement.

    - – -

    Interpretation of the Quran is NOT limited to you . . . so that whatever you view or projection of it is . . . that is the correct one. Your above statement is not honest.

    "the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie"

    Prove this. . .

  408. "This idea of enforcing one's beliefs on another person is the root of a lot of evil. "

    To you maybe . . . but majority of humanity I think would disagree. If you believe something to be correct that strongly . . . you would pass that on to your children. As i have pointed out . . . inadvertently it is impossible NOT to indoctrinate you children. Even Atheists and Secularists do it.

    - – -

    "Ritually circumcised people cannot judge whether it has effects on the sexual experience"

    Scientists can measure that. . . if the effect was that great . . . there would've been an outcry – like the FGM.

    - – -

    "The reason why the court in Germany was asked to rule on ritual circumcision is because of side effects. Every surgical procedure has a risk."

    But not lasting effects – unlike FGM.

  409. What a foolish reaction, AMIN !!
    But it is exactly what I aspected.
    I cannot make anything clear TO YOU, …you are way to stupid. Try to read (if you dare) the articles here http://www.faithfreedom.org/ HoHOHOHO…! ;-)
    Go suïcide yourself, MORON, then everybody
    will be happy: You being in whorehouse heaven, Allah, …and the rest of the world !!!
    You can not bear being insulted ….hey, Amin… ? The SHAME YOU FEEL, THE ANGER….
    HAhahahahaha. You are ridiculous man. !! ;-)
    And now you come: …blah.. prove…blah..make it clear…blah… .Hihihihihihi
    SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR WICKED PROPHET !

  410. "Expert LIARS !! "

    What like . . . changing names posting one comment – then another congratulating your own self?

    That wasn't very "honest" was it?

  411. "Thank you , I don't have to answer this retard now. You did it .
    PS. I am HONEST but not STUPID. "

    Abode of the ignorant – petty insults.

    And you claim not to be "STUPID". . . yet you changed tags and were quick to congratulate your own self there! Now that is not very smart . . when you make it obvious that it was you!

  412. "The old sofists did the same thing. "

    The word is Sophist.

    - – -

    "You are trying to do clever, MUSLIM aminriadh, but you ain't ."

    How so? Again . . . it is EASY to say – but hard to prove? Why don't you have a go and lets see . . .

    - – -

    "But I am sure that all the normal, intelligent readers know what I meant.
    My comment was directed at these people. "

    You simply mean – those that agree with you . . . and will say so no matter what. Or that you will change your name again into something else – and then congratulate you onw self – like you have done below. . . .

    . . . you claim not to be stupid . . . yet you made it obvious that you and "Hones Man" are one and the same.

    "My comment was directed at these people. "

    - – -

    "Now come with your silly answer….let us laugh again"

    Once again. . . you don't actually know what is "silly" about it . . . but you can have a laugh if you wish sweetie.

  413. These "muslim"retards are helping us very much. They are stupid but ot gives life to the debate and that will attract new muslim readers . These people will see how they are fooled by Islam fanatic muslimclerics.

  414. "But also funny and ridiculous ! They try to be logical but , being muslims, they fail and will go in failing ! "

    Yet . . . my dear . . . you do not have er single example of this failure . . . I wonder why?

  415. MoonShadow ( moonworshipper ;-) ) , Aminriadh , and the other Islamdefenders here are PATHETIC !!
    But also funny and ridiculous ! They try to be logical but , being muslims, they fail and will go in failing !
    They can not stop, you know . That would mean shame.
    Come in, evil cretins, let us laugh !!!

  416. I think Julia is right !
    The muslims are afraid!
    That's why they send now their "elite-muslims" .
    Expert LIARS !!
    They will not succeed.
    They are a laughing stock
    Islam is a bacward CULT. All your words can not change
    that !
    MORE AND MORE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD SEE NOW THAT ISLAM IS EVIL.
    AND YOU ARE AFRAID !! That's clear !

  417. Thank you , I don't have to answer this retard now. You did it .
    PS. I am HONEST but not STUPID. ;-)

  418. You are trying to do clever, MUSLIM aminriadh, but you ain't . The old sofists did the same thing.
    But I am sure that all the normal, intelligent readers know what I meant.
    My comment was directed at these people.
    TO YOU, EVIL MUSLIM DEVIL, I SAY: BLOW YOURSELF UP BETWEEN SOME INNOCENT
    HUMAN BEINGS (BE IT MUSLIMS OR INFIDELS ) AS YOUR EVIL FAKE GOD ALLAH ASKS YOU TO……ALLAHU AKBAR…….BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!.( Or are you a coward? Hmmm….. yes, you are!)
    Now come with your silly answer….let us laugh again !!! ;-) ;-)

  419. MORON ZITOUNI. You said:
    " ****ing ignorant . This verse deals with war situation".
    How do you know that? Did Allah say that? In his evil book? Where?
    Allah said that his book was clear, without doubt and explained everything in DETAIL !!
    Proof:
    –Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail… S. 6:114 Hilali-Khan
    –And We have sent down on thee the Book making clear everything, and as a guidance and a mercy, and as good tidings to those who surrender. S. 16:89 Arberry
    –A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Qur'an in Arabic for people who know . 41:3 Hilali-Khan

  420. To Zitouni. The bastard Son if JIKER ZAKIR NAIK ( do you know what "naik" is in arabic ?) ;-)
    You are the only one who takes himself seriously.
    I pity you, you are clearly an ARAB-muslim, always boasting about themselves , but stupid…retarded and backward. On the ither hand please go on, we like a good laugh !!
    You proved that you are an ARAB ignorant and that is good enough for Mr Sina to ignore ( even despise ) you.

  421. An old religion doesn't need to conform to the moral code of the day. On the whole, and contrary to what you say, religions evolve all the time. Today's christianity is not the christianty of the 14th century, and it was nothing like that of the 2nd century.

    Islam is no different. At its inception and during its early expansion, it was quite warlike. When it became established, it became a lot gentler. Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) described a cycle where an established culture achieves it zenith, enters a period of decline, and gets overrun by barbarians, who once established, assimilate much of the culture of the vanquished civilisation, reach their own zenith only to be overrun by a new generation of barbarians, etc, etc. He was in all likelihood reflecting on the mature, tolerant, inclusive islamic civilisation he was living in.

    There is nothing in the islamic foundational texts that stops it from being tolerant. You can see for yourself how people on this forum differ on the interpretation of the quran. Those who see the positive in the verses are not malicious (in the sense that they cannot but see the truth of the negative interpretation but consciously decide to lie), but quite authentic in their positive interpretation.

    Some (more radical) muslims believe that the quran is so obviously the word of god, that they cannot understand how non-muslims can deny that islam is indeed the only true religion, and ascribe this refusal of islam as wickedness, the work of satan. They follow exactly the same reasoning: the divine nature of the quran is so evident that refusing it is a conscious act of negation, making the non-believer an evil person.

    Notice how elsewhere in this forum the same claim was levelled against C Holland Taylor for his apparent refusal to see islam as wicked.

  422. The more these muslims here babble, the more they show how evil their CULT is.
    The only thing one have to do is referring to their own unholy book the Koran.
    Therein is a whole chapter about Booty, And how to distribute the spoils, namely surah 8. Mind you 1/5 was for Mohammed (and Allah ??). Who would get the the land,the sexslaves, the horses, the weapons, the childrenslaves,gold and money. What could Allah do with this? Does he need this?
    YOU CAN READ THIS SURAH ALL OVER THE INTERNET, for example here: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.h

  423. But religious parents have the right to enforce circumcision or religious indoctrination on their children? What makes children the property of their parents? This idea of enforcing one's beliefs on another person is the root of a lot of evil.

    Organised religion has to get at children from their earliest age so that they assimilate its unprovable tenets and consider them self-evident ("god exists because from birth, adults told me god exists"). The technique is well-known to the jesuits ("give me the boy and I'll give you the man") and the nazis (Goebbels: "if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth").

    There are good reasons for male circumcision. Ritually circumcised people cannot judge whether it has effects on the sexual experience, but the prepuce is well innervated so it stands to logic that removing it will affect the sexual experience.

    The reason why the court in Germany was asked to rule on ritual circumcision is because of side effects. Every surgical procedure has a risk.

  424. "Nice try …lol. "

    At what? I have never as yet claimed any special powers to read minds of anonymous people. So why don't you say . . . what it was a nice try at?

    - – -

    "This is the way how the devil tries to deceive you. "

    Again . . . what is "this" that you are talking about? Why don't you make it clear?

    - – -

    It is ironic that "Honest Man" even lacks the honesty to use his own name.

  425. "I wasn't thinking of this specific verse when I wrote that, more in a general sense"

    Yet he was clearly wrong on this occasion. . . possibility that he is wrong on other occasions. In fact he is . . . I will refer you to this shambles. . .
    http://alisina.org/is-islam-for-all-mankind/

    - – -

    "Muhammad was a quite nasty person trying to get as much as possible out of life without much concern for his fellow human beings. "

    This your statement – and it is a wild accusation. . . and on balance completely wrong. However . . . would you care to elaborate? By providing evidence.

    - – -

    "The quran contains a lot of quite nasty verses, that require interpretation to make sense if you want to see them as the unaltered word of god. It also contains a lot of incoherent utterances, that again need a lot of careful consideration and interpretation and hence can be turned into anything suitable for the interpretor. "

    Interpretation? . . . That can be said of any text.

    - – -

    "Whichever way you turn it, unless you've grown up in the muslim mindset, the quran is not a book that is obviously written by god."

    Yet many people do convert to Islam. . .

    - – -

    "Neither do the ahadith describe a moral man who cared for family and friends, let alone for all of mankind. "

    Another wild accusation. . . I assume you will not have difficulty in providing references to justify your statement.

    - – -

    "People who pretend otherwise are suffering from confirmation bias"

    From you viewpoint . . . but this what one would expect you to say.

    - – -

    "Religious texts can be made to say whatever one wants, so why try to prove that the quran is rotten to the core, when creative reading can make it the word of god? "

    Dishonest and you know it. . . i can point to other exchanges between us. . . when it came to talking about some specific verses of the Quran. . . several times – you didn't pursue the matter . . . after I disagreed with your "interpretations"

  426. "If we accept that religion is a matter between oneself and one's god (whatever it might be), we should not even want to force our children to follow our beliefs, but give them the best possible education so they can make the best choice for them. "

    But we don't. Religions at large don't. This is your position as someone non-religious. You do not have the right to enforce this on to others.

    - – -

    "Would you condone removing a fingernail for religious purposes? "

    This doesn't equate to male circumcision. As no religion requires removing of a finger nail it is impossible to to answer such hypothesis. . .

    There are benefits to Male Circumcision – however there are pros and cons for it. And it is pretty unique ritual. Unlike FGM – it is not harmful nor does it have side effects.

  427. Look at this muslim Aminriadh.
    This is the way how the devil tries to deceive you.
    Nice try …lol.

  428. I realise that it is very difficult, but it's worth a try. If we accept that religion is a matter between oneself and one's god (whatever it might be), we should not even want to force our children to follow our beliefs, but give them the best possible education so they can make the best choice for them. This goes against our biological urges, but then many moral concepts go against parts of our nature.

    I am circumcised myself, so I am in all likelihood biased, but I am adamant that we should not mutilate our children for our convictions. It is a small part of the body, but that doesn't mean someone else can decide what to do with it. Would you condone removing a fingernail for religious purposes? One can live very well without a nail on one's right little finger, like one can live perfectly well without a prepuce, but does that mean it's OK to remove it because of a meshugah idea in your mind?

    We should respect our children's right to self-determination. We don't own our children, we are their guardians.

  429. I wasn't thinking of this specific verse when I wrote that, more in a general sense:

    Muhammad was a quite nasty person trying to get as much as possible out of life without much concern for his fellow human beings.

    The quran contains a lot of quite nasty verses, that require interpretation to make sense if you want to see them as the unaltered word of god. It also contains a lot of incoherent utterances, that again need a lot of careful consideration and interpretation and hence can be turned into anything suitable for the interpretor.

    Whichever way you turn it, unless you've grown up in the muslim mindset, the quran is not a book that is obviously written by god. Neither do the ahadith describe a moral man who cared for family and friends, let alone for all of mankind. People who pretend otherwise are suffering from confirmation bias.

    For me, this doesn't matter. Similar observations can be made about the bible (who can deny that Revelations are the demented rantings of an unhinged psychopath?), but it doesn't matter. Religious texts can be made to say whatever one wants, so why try to prove that the quran is rotten to the core, when creative reading can make it the word of god?

    This is a battle that cannot be won, because it is waged against human nature, and the limitations of human cognition.

  430. @ BillOpenthalt

    "…it is also obvious that science cannot provide certainty as it is rooted in doubt, and is perfectly OK with not knowing the answer. For people who prefer the security and peace of mind that religion apparently is able to provide (though for me it raised more questions it could ever answer), I cannot see any problem with religion as long as it does not drive a wedge between people".

    Science and religion are both trying to provide certainty. On the one hand religion tries to achieve this with blind faith. The problem with religion is that it stays the same. This would be okay if religion was perfect (as it claims), but clearly it is not. So people become trapped in flawed beliefs. Also religion tries to force flawed ideas upon others, thereby sabotaging our understanding of things.

    On the other hand, science wants to provide certainty by focusing on evidence. This means that a scientific approach to things is to accept the fact that you have no knowledge to start with. A scientist's job comes down to aquiring knowledge through evidence, so that this knowledge can provide certainty for the people. The good thing about science is that it always evolves. So by reading scientific books, you actually get smarter. Conversely, by reading religious books you stay the same.

    Now comes Islam. Islam in my opinion is not even a religion, nor is it science. Its goal is not to provide certainty, but to take control of every part of society – down to the last human. That makes it a political ideology. In effect, Islam is a dictatorship disguised as a religion. So if you read quran, you learn absolutely nothing, but you risk becoming a violent terrorist wanting to restore the caliphate of the "good old 7th century days".

    My point is, we have to deal with Islam just like we deal with capitalism, socialism, fascism etc. and NOT like a religion. Everytime muslims find miracles in the quran, it is just deflection from the real issue: That Islam's true objective is to dominate you, me and every other human being. If this were to happen, it would be the end of science and development of all kind. Also, humanity would descend into being 7th century barbarians following the laws and instructions of a psychopathic dictator and mass murderer. These include:

    -Forced marriage
    -Stoning of women
    -Female circumcision
    -Polygamy
    -Beheading
    -Chopping off limbs
    -Destruction of cultural and scientific buildings

    etc.

  431. "I think your interpretation of the quran and ahadith is largely correct. "

    Is it?

    Sina said:

    "The next verse says it they surrender, and submit and don\'t fight back to defend themselves then leave them alone. There is no need to kill them. Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered. "

    Yet:

    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. [8:61]

    What he said the next verse says and what he said are 2 different things.

    - – -

    Any other mention of Hadith and verses . . . he did not given any references.

    So how did you arrive at this conclusion – on what basis?

    "I think your interpretation of the quran and ahadith is largely correct."

  432. "The next verse says it they surrender, and submit and don\'t fight back to defend themselves then leave them alone. There is no need to kill them. Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered. "

    8:61 says. . . "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing."

    What you claim and what the next verse actually says don't go together.

    - – -

    "Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered. "

    Evidence?

    - – -

    "Let us not fool ourselves. We all grew up in Islam and we all know the truth about it."

    This is persuasion by illogical means. It doesn't work like that. . . where is your spiel about "evidence"?

    - – -

    "In another verse he said the prophet of God must not stop until he has made a wide slaughter. "

    ? verse?

  433. "From ur writing I can make out that you are very confused. I don't think you realise what you are writing. Result would be no communication. I think you are wasting ur time on this site. You running in circle, ranting and raving, its of no use. Save urself the energy"

    - – -

    Any examples? ELse it is YOU who is ranting and raving.

    - – -

    It is a bit obvious you will make such assertions as you are against my views.

    Hence when you claim:

    "From ur writing I can make out that you are very confused. "

    About what?

    There is lot of difference between making such empty and obviously expected statements – and giving examples. . .

    . . . is this basic concept a step too far for you?

    This might help:
    http://www.indiana.edu/~wts/pamphlets/using_evide

  434. Bill –

    "This means yes to parents explaining their faith to their children, and living the practices of their faith with their children, but no to indoctrination or practices that remove the freedom of choice of children."

    This practically impossible. Either to enforce it or morally right. At large – I don't think people believe the same as what you are advocating.

    - – -

    Also what problems do you have with male circumcision?

  435. What did you you think – a mish mash like that was going to achieve?

    - – -

    Your comments are expected and obvious statements. . . or you resort to another common tactic. Diverting away from the main debate into something else.

    - – -

    Do you have trouble with reading & comprehension?

  436. "Use your common sense for a change or are you just looking for attention because you not getting any at home."

    As expected . . . simply meaningless comment – and running away from anything of substance.

    - – -

    "Use your common sense for a change"

    In what way? And how does this even relate to the above?

    Similarly you latter comment:

    "or are you just looking for attention because you not getting any at home. "

    What has this to do with anything.

    - – -

  437. Use your common sense for a change or are you just looking for attention because you not getting any at home.

  438. From ur writing I can make out that you are very confused. I don't think you realise what you are writing. Result would be no communication. I think you are wasting ur time on this site. You running in circle, ranting and raving, its of no use. Save urself the energy

  439. Do you agree women are deficient in intelligence and the prophet recommended camel urine as medication.No equality in Islam.Husband marrying 4 wives.Jihad killing innocent people like woman and children. Suicide bombing. Unfair inheritance law when most working class woman taking care of their parents financially than the men who inherit more. Do you think that is fair. Having sex with little children and slaves. If you can't see this then you really are in a coma.

  440. I think your interpretation of the quran and ahadith is largely correct. This means that even today, devout muslims must make large cognitive leaps to be able to consider Muhammad the best of all humans. People like C Holland Taylor and Abdurrahman Wahid prove that even larger leaps are possible.

    It is very difficult for people to question the beliefs they picked up as children. No matter how silly or offensive or cruel, if you learned it as a child it becomes normal. This is how the human mind works. It is better to work with the basic beliefs of people, than to attempt to make them abandon these beliefs. Most people are not extremist, and most people want ease. They are natural "bad muslims" or "bad christians". We also know that in a crowd, even good, reasonable and kind people can become inhuman.

    This is why I think that we need to support a humanistic interpretation of islam. A readical interpretation of the bible lead to the Inquisition. A humanistic interpretation ensured that people like the pope now fear the disappearance (through irrelevance) of catholicism in Europe. If we are accept moderate islam, stand firmly against religious discrimination and just as firmly for human rights, and act decisively against readical clerics, I am sure islam can be part of the 21st century.

    This means, of course, that we must not, under the pretense of respecting islam, water down the fundamental rights we enjoy, such as the right to criticise reiigion. We should never enact blasphemy laws (or if we do, insist that the muslim interpretation of Jesus as a mere prophet is just as blasphemous to christians as the christian interpretation of Muhammad as a fraud is to muslims). We should never grant derogations for religious practices, like allowing people to mutilate their children in the name of religion (I fully support the German court's decision to consider male circumcision as bodily harm).

    It also means that we must not enact laws that can be interpreted as anti-muslim, or anti-jewish, or anti-religion. I do realise that outlawing circumcision for infants can, will, and has been interpreted as anti-religion. We must simply continue to affirm that anyone is enttiled to their religion, provided they chose it themselves. This means yes to parents explaining their faith to their children, and living the practices of their faith with their children, but no to indoctrination or practices that remove the freedom of choice of children. We would not tolerate a religion that chops of a finger for religious purposes, or even removes pinky nails for religious purposes, but we tolerate chopping off the prepuce simply because it's an ancestral tradition. If religions cannot wait for their believers until they are of age, they should be told to take a hike.

    There is an ocean between cutting of part of your baby son's penis and asking him to wear a yarmulke. There is an ocean of difference between outlawing polygamy, and outlawing the niqab.

  441. "…verse 7 that its verses are completely clear and for those that are not clear only Allah knows their meaning? "

    That is not what the verse says. . . the word used "Tawil" means interpretation. Which has different connotations than "meaning".

    - – -

    Muslims generally do not take Mutashbihat to mean that even the obvious meanings – ascertained from the language – are not known.

  442. Don't you think if those verses meant fight the enemy, they'd have said so?
    After all the Quran itself says in Ali Imran, verse 7 that its verses are completely clear and for those that are not clear only Allah knows their meaning?

    "It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding"

    So either these fighting verses are specific or unspecific.
    1.If they are specific,they mean fight the non-believers,not the enemy as you are implying.If it was a clear verse, it would have written enemy and not non-believers.

    2.And if they are the unspecific ones,only Allah knows their meanings.So why you as a muslim is vouching to know something which only Allah knows and thus committing sin by raising yourself to Allah's level?

    "The arabic tarhabuna translated as terrorise in Muhamed time simply means to scare and it did not have meaning of kiling civilians indiscriminately as your slave master whites are doing today around the world" – you are committing the same mistakes as many non-muslims do in case of dealing with muslims.
    Mistake 1: You said just whites.Most whites who don't go around killing civilians.
    Mistake 2: You seriously think that a modern army will have a strategy of killing civilians indiscriminately? Even armies 2000 years ago knew that this strategy doesn't work. This is a white lie. Your believing in it means you are completely unaware of ground realities, probably due to your bias. Armies work based on intelligence reports with them. Civilians are not killed by any 'professional' army unless it's due to wrong intelligence or unavoidable collateral damage. Of course there can be bad elements in an army who can disobey orders and do voluntary crimes against civilians. But if found out, they are meted out serious punishments.

  443. "At the end of the day we cannot runaway from the truth. "

    True . . . you have the naivety not to understand that every one claims to have the "truth". It is simply the version that you choose to believe in.

  444. "Do the verification yourself, compare the Hadith to the Quran. Take it one step at a time."

    huh? This is what I don't get. . . . you know full well that you don't know much . . . hence the "do the research" yourself.

    It is very simply – if you have done such "verifications" – why are you then so tongue-tied about them?

    Is it because it will become clear . . . you ain't what you claim to be?

    - – -

    This "verification" it works 2 ways. . . I asked knowTheEnemy to verify the BS he posts up and some of the things he hold to be true. . . he couldn't.

    S/He said he did not have the skills. . . s/he wasn't a "professional".

    So why is it that you fail to follow you own guidance?

    - – -

    Just like Sina – he posted fine rhetoric about evidence and what not. . . yet he hasn't ONCE managed to follow his own advice. . . why? Press him to backup his claims . . . he runs faster than Bolt will ever manage.

    - – -

    But you know you haven't got the ability – were it not you chose not to discuss Sina and hist article – after making the threat?

    - – -

    So why the Bullshit?

  445. Your comments don't have anything worth replying.
    All you have is abuse.You'd do better if you hurl them towards the pedophilic,sex-addicted,war-mongering tyrant Muhammad.

    Aren't you also beating your own drum when you say if Holland reads your debate with Sina,he'll laugh at Sina?If you know how to read,Sina has written that he isn't a scholar.He reads things,applies logic and draws conclusions.And anyone is welcome to refute him.

  446. "this is not about most or least. It is about adhering to Islam. To the extent that Muslims follow Islam they pose a threat to others. Since we have no way to know the faith of the people, it is prudent to kick all the Muslims out, unless they denounce this ideology of hate. "

    - – -

    What I asked you – and what you answered do not match. . .

    I asked for evidence of this claim:

    ""And I also know that all of them hate their own people as soon as they convert to Islam. " "

    In return you gave me your usual spiel. What was the point of that?

    You cannot EVEN honestly answer a question . . . I doubt if it is question of understanding.

    I know you have to prop up the "converted" – but simply preaching to them isn't going to always work.

    - – -

    Where did you get this imaginary doctorate from and in which subject?

  447. Can you tell me where this concept of greater and lesser Jihad is in the Quran?
    As far as I know, the concept of Lesser(violent fighting) and Greater(striving) Jihad is a concept from the hadith, not the Quran.

    But this Hadith contradicts Quran Sura An-Nisa, verse 95:
    "Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] – other than the disabled – and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward".
    A greater Jihadi(striving with self, not fighting) can't get less reward than lesser Jihadi(Mujahideen), can he?

    So obviously that Hadith can't be taken to be authentic.

  448. "Had I said send the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Bahai back, you could all me a racist. But Islam is not a religion."

    Yet – as I pointed out YOU are the one that termed "Prejudice by Religion" as Racism. It was me who said it isn't.

    Come on . . . dearie – you can do better than that! Like I said – accuracy doesn't seem to be your strong point. Neither does truth. . . by the looks of it.

    - – -

    " But Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology of domination disguised as religion. Muslims are the enemy among us. "

    Yet – targeting one religion is WRONG! Also you failed to answer the point that . . . Many Muslims groups are apolitical.

    This "caliphate" has not succeeded even in any Muslim-majority country either.

    So where is the evidence for it?

    - – -

    "But as long as their allegiance is to Islam, and strive to overthrow our democracies and establish their dictatorship, they should go. "

    Dictatorships are failing even in Muslim countries. . . again. Lacking in ANY sort of evidence. . .

    . . . this bile is nothing more than your own prejudices.

    - – -

    " This is not prejudice. It is preservation of our freedom. "

    No it isn't – it is the first attack on "freedom". It was the "freedom" that let Muslims in. . . or are you saying this "freedom" now has limited connotations. . .

    - – -

    Why the BS over – "evidence" – if you are not going to follow it?

  449. That finger is pointing back at u, its so obvious.

  450. "No she didn't. Julia gave exact sura and aya numbers! "

    huh? Man! You'll always win the turkey award. The veracity of what she said – she repeated it. That is it. . . . that is not what I asked.

    "Julia" isn't you pretending by any chance?"

    - – -

    "You think people here are ignorant and unintelligent, yet you prefer spending hours on this site. Says a lot! "

    The ignorant tend to be far more dangerous. . .

  451. \”Most is something else. \”

    this is not about most or least. It is about adhering to Islam. To the extent that Muslims follow Islam they pose a threat to others. Since we have no way to know the faith of the people, it is prudent to kick all the Muslims out, unless they denounce this ideology of hate.

  452. "One reading of Dr. Sina’s comment and your response will clearly give the answers to what you are asking. So read the comments again…..And don’t try to be a Aristotle any more "

    How so . . . it is OBVIOUSLY clearly to you only. . . yet ONCE AGAIN you have trouble explaining this OBVIOUNESS . . .

    Why? If it is SO OBVIOUS – then why didn't you explain it. . . rather than saying:

    " So read the comments again"

    How is that HELPFUL?

    - – -

    "There is no lie. Dr. Sina says the truth."

    When you said this . .. it was just a statement . . . you need to back it up.

    - – -

    "There is no hate in Dr. Sina. The deep, dark hate exists in Islamic ‘holy’ books…. And you know that! "

    Mere assertions . . and as per usual meaningless . . . as you don't have a clue what providing "evidence" even means…

    Hence:

    ".And don’t try to be a Aristotle any more "

    What you are saying is – don't think and QUESTION – Bullshit from Sina . . . just accept it as is – and become a sheep like you. Ha Ha. . . you really are a child aren't you.

    Why don't you stop wasting time – and concentrate on your education . . . when you have acquired the skills . . . then come back.

    Then when you are under pressure – you wont have to come out with I am not a "professional".

    - – -

  453. Had I said send the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Bahai back, you could all me a racist. But Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology of domination disguised as religion. Muslims are the enemy among us. It is perfectly okay to send them back. Of course if they leave Islam and decide to be part of us, we would welcome them. But as long as their allegiance is to Islam, and strive to overthrow our democracies and establish their dictatorship, they should go. This is not prejudice. It is preservation of our freedom.

  454. "Why it is a lie? FBI have uncovered several Islamic charity sites that were funneling money for terrorism. Are you familiar with the trial of Holly Land Foundation? That is only one of many cases."

    You seem to be having a little trouble with your basics of Islam:

    Zakah – is only limited as a charity – which does NOT include warfare. As you wrongly implied. However Zakah is obligatory – but Muslims have other forms of voluntary charity – Sadaqah as an example. Then there is ad-hoc giving.

    - – -

    "Why it is a lie? FBI have uncovered several Islamic charity sites that were funneling money for terrorism"

    If it means they were using Zakah money – then clearly the fault lies with these organizations and their deviancy.

    However warfare isn't the purpose of Zakah. Neither it is the purpose of the individual giver.

    - – -

    "It all depends to what cause he spends his zakat. If he gives it to the poor directly, he is a good human and if he spends it to finance jihad and terrorism, he is a good Muslim. "

    You claim to know Islam well. . . so why did you blur the truth here?

    - – -

    Accuracy isn't your strong point – is it?

  455. From ur writing it seems that you have invested alot in Islam. Eg, going for Haj comes at a huge cost, being an Aalim too. Some people have to save a life time to go on Haj.All the energy that has gone into prayers, tahajud salaah fasting, studying for 4 years at AL Azar University.My heart goes to all the old people who have to get up during cold rainy morning to wash their feet to make Tahajud salaah early hours of the moringing. I share ur sentiments. Its difficult, took great courage for me to stop fasting. Was a teeny weeny girl when I started. Also paid in the days after ramadaan.At the end of the day we cannot runaway from the truth. Do the verification yourself, compare the Hadith to the Quran. Take it one step at a time.

  456. This is your comment
    "You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day, and who remembers Allah much. (33:21). In this verse Allah instructs Muslims to follow Prophet Muhammad (Piss be upon him). "
    Prophet was a rapist, pedophilia. Should we follow him? Should we do marry with a child of 6 years old in our fifties? Should we do sex with 9 years old girl in our Sixties?

  457. "But if you give your money to a mosque, it is almost certain that it will be used for terrorist causes."

    Again you have absolutely no way of knowing the truth of this. . . once again EVIDENCE?

    - – -

    You were fine with that spiel about "evidence". .. when it comes to the actual practice. I don't think the word hypocrite is strong enough. A bit too cliche.

  458. Just you words. . . proof?

    Where is that spiel about "evidence" gone. You know full well such rhetoric is meaningless. . . except those who are already converts to your cause.

    So – this person – who you think hold you in such high regards has never acknowledged you at his sites. . . and you are the only one claiming this.

    Sounds very iffy!

    - – -

    "It took him 13 years to write this email. I hope I won't wait as long to receive yours. "

    Ha ha ha ego!

  459. "No, stopping Muslims coming to the west and even sending those who are in the west back to their Islamic paradises is not prejudice."

    This is exactly same as any drivel from Racist website – however the only difference is that they want all races to go away.

    It was your own mistaken definition to call prejudice based on religion – to call it racism.

    - – -

    " Islam is not just a religion. It is a political ideology or domination too. Muslims want to overthrow our democracies and establish their caliphate."

    Right – yet not a single Muslim country has established "caliphate" or has the motivation at large to do so.

    Iran may be the only case in point. Then there are many Muslim groups that are simply apolitical – such as Sufi's.

    Yet you would indiscriminately throw out every single person – who would consider him/herself Muslim in any capacity?

    And you seriously think that isn't hate? prejudice? stereotyping? . . . yet it is the EXACT definition of it.

    It is the absolute EXTREME viewpoint. . . even among Western society at large.

    - – -

    "So we would be very much within our right to not allow enemies into our countries. "

    Ah. . . again your little trickery. . . we are not talking about allowing them in only . . . but throwing them out. Even say… converts too?

    - – -

    "If we can classify Islam as a government, we can easily get rid of it and we won't be in violation of our own human rights."

    Exact same argument – that any fanatic makes. . . borrowed from Nazism and Racists.

    - – -

    One would have though – you would WELCOME Muslims . . . given your absurd claims . . . so that have future converts.

    - – -

    Isn't this position to sideline with likes of Spencer. . . after all you need someone to fund that movie!

  460. I'm serious, its the truth. Was a quran alone muslim becos hadiths did not make sense.Then I read a debate of Edip Euksel vs Ali Sina.Edip Euksel is a Quran alone muslim. Took great interest in his work.My eyes started opening when he could not prove Alisina wrong.I also got very angry at first when Alisina insulted muslims and the prophet.That is when I became curious to see whether Dr Sina had gone off the deep end.I can't but help, most of his writing makes sense.Soon you will also see that light. The only problem I have now is my children. I don't want to confuse them at such a young age, so I'm letting them fast. Kids are innocent and may devulge info innocently which may lead to trouble. I believe when they a bit older I will explain .Any other suggestions regarding the children , will be appreciated.This info is not forged.

  461. "People will believe my movie. "

    Just like the way they "believed" in your book. How ironic.

    – - –

    On the wider stage you will be as much as a small fry as you are now.

  462. "And I also know that all of them hate their own people as soon as they convert to Islam. "

    See . . . this is typical of your prejudice and stereotypes. You have absolutely NO WAY of knowing if this statement is true – to the EXTENT of saying "ALL".

    Most is something else. . . lot, many. . . for this to be either virtually or absolutely true. . . you need evidence.

    You were giving hell of a lot of baloney about EVIDENCE. . . so where is it?

    - – -

    Pointing out one link is this case is simply illogical. Now do you have the ability to answer properly. . . or is it going to be the case of a lot of rhetoric.

  463. I would request Dr Ali Sina to get his book Understanding Muhammad translated into Malayalam. There are more than a crore of Malayali Muslims in Kerala and most of them are literate. They can benefit from a translation of your book.

    I think Dr Babu Suseelan, originally is from this part of India.

    Kerala is the place from where Shabeer the copy paste cartoon comes. His ilk needs understanding of Understanding Islam the most.

    Some effort to translate this book in Malayalam should be done. Dr. Babu Susheelan is a well known crusader against Islam and is one of the members of the Stop Islamization movement. He is a Malayali of Kerala origin. Perhaps his help can be sought.

    He has contributed articles to FFI http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/stop-i….

  464. All of us are eagerly awaiting for this dream of yours to materialize. We pray that you find success.
    You are our leader and commander Mr Sina.

    MoonShadow and his ilk are trying to put thorns in your way. Trying to dissuade you. Playing mental games to dissuade you.

    Your reply to his comment showed your firmness and resolve. The steel in your resolve, will one day take the irons out of Islam and nail Islam in the coffin.

    Keep up your good work. You are not alone. We are behind you.
    You are our leader and our inspiration.

    I had read an article about a vision of liberated Mecca and Medina and how non muslim tourists visit these places liberated from the Muslims after the complete elimination of Islam from the world. I am not able to get the links for that page. But I am sure, the day is very near.

  465. I love and admire Robert, Pamela, and Ali. I am a big fan. So there.

  466. For example, I don't hate retarded people. Or dogs with rabies. Get it?

  467. I love scum bags. I'm a Christian. It's my job to love scum bags. I even love you, darling.

  468. After every battle Mo had to make new laws so as to ensure that he got the side of the bread on which lay the maximum amount of butter. So new verses were revealed out of thick air ( the air was more polluted by Mo's lies and bloodshed) by Mo.

    Poor Muslims cannot understand this plain truth.

  469. " there would not be any non Muslims left alive in Midle east"

    That's interesting, because there are almost no non-muslims in the middle east. The last few left alive are getting out now, God bless them.

  470. "If early Muslims understood the verse the way the ignorant Ali Sina did there would not be any non Muslims left alive in Midle east"
    ———-
    That's a good point! However, iIt seems like nowadays, plenty of jihadi groups (consisting of Muslims, obviously) are misunderstanding lots of verses from the Quran. Now that puzzles me most is this,

    Why do you, and other Muslims who claim to know the correct meanings of verses, spend time on THIS website, instead of contacting those Jihad groups and tell THEM about Arabic says and what the scholars say. Because you see, if those Jehadis start doing something constructive, instead of indulging in violence, there will be no need for me (and other people like me) to visit this website. Simple! no?

  471. Well then don't visit this site! Unless you like poop infested sites, as other people like flower gardens.

  472. The video that i posted doesn't seem to support that view!

  473. "In conclusion – you d o not think there are ANY innocent deaths of Muslims. You support what USA does. . . and all its methods. "
    ———
    No, it does NOT mean that for me there are no innocent deaths of Muslims, nor does it mean that I support everything that USA does, but the fact that you concluded it that way, makes you even more of a clown to whoever is going to be reading your comments.

  474. ". . . what is that you have added that was meaningful? "
    ———-
    You can't figure that out but other people can! You should go to bed and have nightmares about Hirsi Ali allying with Christian fanatics and conspiring against Muslims.

  475. "When you do not make your views clear. . . and distort, ignore and deflect. Then it is pretty obvious … you are hiding something"
    ———
    You are projecting your own nature on me Amin.

  476. I am not a scholar , but anybody who knows Arabic can tell you thats what the verse means plus scholars of Islam and koran are saying the same thing that I am saying. If early Muslims understood the verse the way the ignorant Ali Sina did there would not be any non Muslims left alive in Midle east

  477. "You are NOT very bright are you . . . the comment isn't targeted at moonshadow – whoever he is . . . but at YOU. And you could EVEN work that out.

    Your brain power leaves a LOT to be desired. I have advised you many times. . . THINK! before you comment"
    ———-
    You think I am a dimwit, yet you spend hours responding to my comments. Says more about YOU than me!
    *********
    "And what was the ABOVE comment about? You support of Sina. . . and Spencer. What else is that about? Hence: "You have admitted as much. ""
    ———
    Really! You can conclude anything that fits your agenda, out of anything. That's what your specialty really is!

  478. I had this dream for ten years. Now it is about to materialize. No cold shower will take it away. In fact I have asked a few friends to go ahead with the project should I get hit by a bus and die. This project is too important to die with my death.

    I have condensed most salient things I know about Muhammad in this two parts four hours movie. The Danish cartoons generated a lot of noise but there was no debate. The only debate was whether it was a good thing or not. The cartoons had no message behind them. This movie is loaded with information about Muhammad. People can talk about him, his childhood, the role of Khadijah, the veracity of the persecution in Mecca, what the Meccans could have done, what mistakes the Jews committed, and numerous other subjects. Of course the character of Muhammad will also be highlighted. I can tell you this movie will change the course of history. It will mark the beginning of the end of Islam.

    No one wants to live in lies, including Muslims. Once the truth about Muhammad and Islam is known they will leave Islam by millions.

  479. Someone else is doing the job for me.
    Hey, naughty boy….I remember that someone told
    you to wear diapers……why didn't you?
    Your poop is all over the site.

  480. “Right? Really? – Yes her story of FGM is sad and cruel. But she has long since condemned all Muslim women. That is pretty obvious.

    She DOES NOT promote welfare of Muslims Women. Rather – spends her time on strategies for a right wing Christian think tank. . . and condemning all Muslims.”
    ———–

    There you go! I guess a Muslim brain can only think of how others are allying with the enemy and conspiring. But that is not your fault. You revere Muhammad, and he used to be the same way.

  481. The next verse says it they surrender, and submit and don\’t fight back to defend themselves then leave them alone. There is no need to kill them. Actually that is what Khalid ibn Walid used to do. he would kill even those who had surrendered.

    Let us not fool ourselves. We all grew up in Islam and we all know the truth about it. Let us not twist everything. It does not fool anyone anymore. Read the biography of Muhammad to know when and how these verses were uttered. These two verses say attack them and kill them until they surrender, then stop killing them. Actually he was quite whimsical. In another verse he said the prophet of God must not stop until he has made a wide slaughter.

  482. “Then what is with the statements. . . they say something else. . . you have called Muslims "dirty" and "scumbags" and "mad" – what is all that about?”
    ——–
    Dr. Sina has said again and again that he differentiates between extremist Muslims and ignorant Muslims! But I guess it conveniently fits your agenda to ignore it every single time, and then make same old accusations again.
    *********
    “In other words. . . force your views – by any means necessary. The "freedom" bits are BS – as considering what you say about eradicating Islam”
    ———-
    Islam is different! We can’t allow an ideology that will trash the VERY constitution that gives the freedom in the first place. With such a dangerous political ideology, the RIGHT thing to do is to oppose it, even better to suppress it, best to completely eradicate it.

  483. "Right. . . and the thousands that have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. .. are you saying then there have been no innocent deaths. . . ."
    ———-
    The thousands that were killed in Iraq, and the ones getting killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan today, are killed by fellow Muslims. Mostly in IED bombings. I have been watching the news for years…. so don't start any propaganda here. If it is anyone's fault, it's the Jihadis.
    And lots of us/nato soldiers and civilian contractors were killed too!

  484. "When you have nothing else to add. . . you resort to such personal attacks. . . "
    ———
    I only said the truth! If it hurts, it is your problem.
    **********
    "which statements exactly – why is it you did not mange to point any out? To back up your assertions"
    ———-
    Well all of them! How many statements are there? Do you take bath salts before you sit down in front of the computer?

  485. "What good name? Pamela Geller is mad. . . there is no other words about it. . . the evidence is all there"
    ———–
    This is called hallucinating!
    **********
    Same for Spencer – he is a fanatical Christian. . .
    ———
    No, he's not! But I would rather live in a neighborhood of fanatical Christians (which spencer is not) than Muslims.

  486. LOL, when you can't stomach something, then it's a story!

  487. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

  488. @ Ali Sina

    You quoted 8:60 but what about the next verse?

    "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing."

    Does it not show that 8:60 is in self-defence?

  489. I actually liked Abdurahman Wahid, he's a good sensible person, he opposed radical muslims like those FPI scums, he protected other religions, promoted tolerance. His Nahdatul Ulama organization stands for Islam that is 'Indonesian Version', which is heavily influenced by local Javanese tradition.

    But still this also shows that even if Wahid and NU's the 'good guys', the Islamic 'Purists' from Middle East see NU and their 'Islam Indonesian version' as heretical. And from study of Islamic text just like Dr. Ali Sina shows here, it's clear that the Radicals of the Middle East actually have the right idea what Islam should be, which is Islam as originally envisioned by Prophet Muhammad: which is Islam which should have trampled on and replaced all local tradition instead of embracing and merging with them.

    So no matter how noble Wahid and NU may be, and no matter how powerful NU is, there's a cap to their struggle, as ultimately they are deluded, ultimately they cannot deny who they really are or who they should be, according to Muhammad's teachings. Wahid's Nahdatul Ulama did excellent job making this 'something wrong' named Islam smell good, but in the end it's still 'something wrong' at the core.

    'Moderate' Islam is 'watered-down' Islam.
    So why 'water it down' at all? Because it's bad that's why.
    Well here's a better idea for everyone to consider, if it's bad why not just totally be rid of it?

    This is similar question Mr.Sina's asking Mr.Holland, and to this Mr.Holland has no answer.
    Because Mr.Holland knows he's wrong, but can't admit it. He'd rather stay in his dream of a 'watered-down' aka 'moderate' Islam.

  490. You know what? Muslims will not admit you to their homes
    unless you take off your shoes. Hygine is part of their
    faith, that's why they wash often. You can't be a muslim'
    and dirty at the same time.

  491. And how do you know the correct meaning of 8:60? Are you a scholar?

    Regarding Iraq, I agree that the US should never have invaded it whether or not it had bombs.

  492. I simply asked him a question. But I guess you see prejudice even in that.
    ********

    If Sina's henchmen are that poor. . . the Sheikh is not likely to be much better
    ———
    Since you are so smart, why don't you figure out for me if the link below is 'news report', or a fabricated story. And if you do decide that it is a fabrication, see if you can give me an idea as to why you won't talk to Associated Press for fabricating stories that make Muslims look bad, and instead waste your time with FFI'ers who aren't "likely to be much better".
    http://www.sacbee.com/2012/07/30/4675198/alleged-

  493. Very nice…..and I personally believe in every word you said (I considered the last
    sentence a question only). This is a fragment of what you said:
    "it is also obvious that science cannot provide certainty as it is rooted in doubt, and is perfectly OK with not knowing the answer." That's why I am agnostic, not an atheist yet, because there
    are still unexplained things I observe every now and then, science stands helpess
    infront (such as predicting dreams…..just an example)

    Yes, it will be better to promote the interpretation of the islamic texts in the sense of
    Abduurrahman Wahid……instead of trying to prove that Islam is beyond redemption,
    nasty, filthy thing and call to hate it, contempt it, destroy it in the sense of Ali Sina,
    who is promoting hate and grudge only, not solving any problem (the answer to
    your question).

  494. I listened to the interview with C Holland Taylor. I am an atheist in the sense that I can see no compelling evidence for god or the supernatural, and hence no reason to believe that any religion has been promulgated or inspired by (a) god.

    That being said, it is also obvious that science cannot provide certainty as it is rooted in doubt, and is perfectly OK with not knowing the answer. For people who prefer the security and peace of mind that religion apparently is able to provide (though for me it raised more questions it could ever answer), I cannot see any problem with religion as long as it does not drive a wedge between people. Historically, many religions have done just that, and their foundational texts reflect the status of their adherents as the chosen people, resulting in less than kind behaviour towards others (to state it mildly).

    Clearly, people like Abdurrahman Wahid and many other muslims can interpret islam in such a way that makes it fit in a 21st century society. This is similar to the popular moves within christianity to drop those aspects of doctine that are no longer perceived to be relevant. Such moves are (obviously) frowned upon by the catholic hierarchy, and by more devout christians.

    I believe that not one religious text can be read without interpretation. Such texts always contain the worldview of their scribes, because even if god communicated with a human (directly or through angelic intermediaries), the words had to be understandable by the listeners. Language does not exist in a vacuum, and without shared context, the meaning of any sentence is ambiguous. Even with shared context, words need careful definitions to minimise ambiguity.

    The French used to believe (and some still believe) that French is the only language in which laws and treaties are unambiguous, because French was specifically "designed" as a language for legally binding texts. This is hilarious, but it proves that people can (and often do) believe that their interpretation of a text is the only possible one.

    The foundational texts of christianity lead to the inquisition. The inquisitors were not bad people, but because they believed in life after death and considered it more important than life on earth, they could believe that if killing a person lead to the redemption of the soul, they actually did their victims a favour. Their approach to killing people was eerily similar to that of today's muslim suicide bombers, who operate from the belief that if they kill good muslims, these go straight to heaven, so they cannot complain, and if they kill unbelievers, it's a good deed anyway.

    So clearly, no matter what the foundational text, once a religion values the hereafter (for which there is no compelling proof) more than life on earth, and divides humans into believers and non-believers, it has within itself the recipe for murder and mayhem. Whether it actually promotes murder and mayhem depends wholly on the interpretation of the foundational texts.

    So, while it is clear that the quran contains quite a lot of rather nasty verses, and that the ahadith describe Muhammad as a rather nasty person, would it not be better to promote the interpretation of the islamic texts in the sense of Abdurrahman Wahid, instead of trying to prove that islam is beyond redemption? If we succeed in doing that, what are the chances that the vast majority of muslims will abandon their faith (remember the definition of faith)?

    Does Ali Sina's campaign not, rather perversely, contribute to the success of radical islam?

  495. Sina,

    Why don't you take a cold shower and go to bed and forget about your project?
    I am saying this for your own sake. I noticed from the battle above that
    Muslims are too smart to be conquered.

    If you don't want to quit for "other" reasons, I understand this also.

  496. Well, don't forget that India used to be ruled by the Muslims for over 300 years and they were in prominent positions (Means ordinary people, including Hindus, looked UP to them). We acquire habits from the company we keep, especially if they are in superior positions.

  497. Uh…Ugh..Yakiii……you are sickening

  498. I have been in your country, and I saw people
    pooping in the streets (adults). I had to watch
    where I put my foot to avoid stepping in the poop.

  499. If it is OBVIOUS, then why accuse Dr. Sina of lying? Here is what you said-
    "Right. . .. and you want people to believe that you are an expert of Islam. Yet deliberately lie about what Zakah is."
    *********
    When you said Sina is saying the truth. . . about what?

    "There is no lie. Dr. Sina says the truth."

    What are you on about? What is it that isn't a lie. . .
    ————-
    One reading of Dr. Sina’s comment and your response will clearly give the answers to what you are asking. So read the comments again…..And don’t try to be a Aristotle any more
    ******
    You follow Sina into his deepest and darkest hate. . . did you respond to the allegation? No. Hence you do.
    ———–
    There is no hate in Dr. Sina. The deep, dark hate exists in Islamic ‘holy’ books…. And you know that!

  500. All you did was repeat the same thing as above.
    ———
    No she didn't. Julia gave exact sura and aya numbers!
    *****
    "Your turn , moron Aminriadh"

    Resort of the ignorant – petty insult. Go figure!

    I doubt you have the intelligence to answer the question in the first place . . . on the given evidence
    ———-
    You think people here are ignorant and unintelligent, yet you prefer spending hours on this site. Says a lot!

  501. Only now, I am certain that this battle is between
    intelligance and stupidity……This is very tiresome.
    I over-estimated Sina