Dear Ali,
I know you must be tired of me by now but what can I do, you are probably the only person I can speak my heart out to. I feel so lonely these days and even when I am with my family and friends, I feel totally alienated and detached from them. I don’t feel as if I belong to those people who are such anti everything that is not Muslim. Not that I ever was one of them but now I feel if they know my true identity that I am not a Muslim anymore, they would hate me and probably disown me if not murder me.
I guess I can never be an apostate openly and I will have to pretend to be a Muslim rest of my life, at least till my parents are alive. The other day my mom telling me that why don’t I go for Hajj with my brother and his wife next year since they are planning to go. My mom and dad have done their Hajj a few years ago, I did not go with them because I had always said I would go with my husband. Come to think of it, it was just an excuse because deep down inside I could never understand the logic behind it. Now my brother and his wife are planning to go next year and they told me since I am not married yet, its high time I get over with this vital religious obligation as soon as I can.. Now tell me how do I get out of this? Even my parents are insisting that I do hajj next year.. I don’t want to do that, why should I spend my hard earned money on something I don’t believe in anymore.
I am going thru such an emotional turmoil for the last few weeks, I first came across your website a month ago and then wrote to you on 23rd of last month and I still remember I stopped praying somewhere the end of last month. But I have been going thru a mixture of all kinds of emotions since then, sometimes I feel happy and liberated and then I feel scared that what if this is a test from God and I have gone astray for some time and maybe I will go back to being a Muslim. What if this is all a phase. But then I go back to your website and it motivates me again to be steadfast on this path that I have chosen.
I cry a lot these days, whenever I am alone, I just want to sit and ponder.. I am going thru such a difficult time that I feel I am going to have a nervous breakdown. Should I go and see a psychologist or psychiatrist? Do I need therapy? But then I have to make sure that the shrink I see is a non-Muslim. U wrote to an ex Muslim woman do not trust these Muslim doctors as their Islamic fundamentalism is much more important to them then some Hippocratic oath.. Right?I want to write, I mean I wish I could have my own website and then write what I am going thru and what made me change. How I have always been a bad Muslim but a good human being.. But then living in this country, I cannot do this because sooner or later, they will block my site and I won’t be able to access my own website.
I shall look forward to your reply.
Regards
Shakila
Dear Shakila,
Sorry I was late answering your previous email. What you are going through is absolutely normal. I already mentioned this in my one article where I talked about my experience. The false guilt, depression, anxiety, fear, confusion, and anger are present in all those who leaves a cult.
Yes your parents are part of a cult. But so were you and I. This does not change the fact that they are your parents and you owe them filial loyalty and love.
There is a golden rule that I suggest you follow, any time in doubt as what you should do in any situation. Ask what Muhammad would have done and do the opposite. If you do that you will never go wrong. What was Muhammad’s advice in regards to siblings and parents who were unbelievers? He said not to befriend them; to cut ties with them, not to associate with them (Q.3:28). Well, do the opposite. Be loyal and loving to your parents and kin. In any situation do the opposite of what Muhammad said and you can be sure that you are doing the right thing.
You said sometimes you think all this is a test and that you will eventually return to Islam. You will not. I tried for two years. I did everything I could to restore my faith. I prayed, I hid the Quran behind other books because it was the book that had jolted my faith and every time I saw it, all my doubts were renewed. But nothing worked. The more I tried the less I succeeded. That is why I made the analogy of coming out of the womb of ignorance. Once out I could no longer go back. Don’t believe me? Try it. Do your best to restore your faith. You will see that it is impossible. Just give it a time and all your doubts will go away and you will be at peace with your enlightenment.
In your previous email you said you’d like to read the Bible. It is a good idea. It is banned in your country but you can find it online. I did the same at first and I even attended a church for a couple of years. I did it mostly to socialize. I have a great respect for Jesus, but I can’t believe in God. God makes no sense to me. The more I ponder upon it the more the whole concept appears ludicrous and puerile. However, I understand that not everyone can live without the belief in God. And I also don’t believe atheism is superior to theism. For me it is just a philosophical choice. I think fanatical atheists are just as bad as fanatical theists. What you believe is irrelevant, what really counts is how you live your life.
If you don’t fall into extremism, I think Christianity is a good choice. Just be rational about it. Jesus was not a fanatic. Learn Christianity from him and not from zealot Christians.
Keep your thoughts to yourself. There is no point in making a public announcement about your apostacy. There are millions of apostates that live like that. There is nothing wrong with it. A time will come that the majority of Muslims will no longer believe and this edifice of lie with fall on its own. It will collapse like the twin towers of the WTC did. I said it ten years ago. You will see it happen. Even though you may now think it is farfetched, you will see it with your own eyes. This deception is over. The world is waking up and Muslims will too. We need a way to get our message to masses – to millions of people. There is a way. The project is on its way. Something is cooking and you’ll hear about it soon. Everyone will hear about it. That would be the end of Islam.
As for going to hajj, keep telling your parents the same thing you said to them always. Tell them you have made a vow that you will go to hajj as a married woman and you want to keep your word. Don’t throw your hard earned money in that country. The more money the Saudis make the more they support Jihad, building of mosques and the spread of Islam.
There are psychologists that specialize in cult rehabilitation. You can find them online. Avoid going to a Muslim shrink. He will not understand you as he is himself a cultist. In fact he may give you more trouble. You don’t suffer from depression, you suffer disillusionment. It will go away as you learn more. See these sites.
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/martin_paul_study_rehab_benefits.htm
www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/secul/landmark/forum.html
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_profile/wellspring_retreat_resource.asp
Search “cult rehabilitation” for more links.
Cheers
Ali
Follow up: Shakila is finally free from Islam and she runs her own blog. Visit her here:
http://liberatednow.blogspot.com/
"There is a way. The project is on its way. Something is cooking and you’ll hear about it soon. Everyone will hear about it. That would be the end of Islam." What is this project? Is it something you founded or is it a organisation or what?
It could be also Islam may get stronger, they are trying their best to establish the caliphate. Iran with nukes. They will kill whoever oppose, but I agree with ALi Sini, something is churning! I hope for the best for all the muslim people who are good and have a soul. Get out of the cult.
If Ali Sina says something, he does it. May Allah save Islam!
>But 1st, U must be able to stop the in-fighting among muslims. 2nd U have to kill the demon-cazy virus affecting the Arabs in the ME countries that has caused so many mayhems n thousands of muslims ( n counting ) to die or get injured. 3rd U must be able to povide jobs for millions of young, hungry n poor muslims, otherwise, troubles. And finally, U must force muslims to live in peace with Israel, the USA n the rest of the world to get help..Can yr god help u to complete this "Mission impossible" ? Possible ? Maybe u have better methods to save Islam. I like to hear them.
I have kept muhammad (piss be upon the scumbag) as my slave to do all my household chores.
Whenever I hear the name of non-existent entity Allah, I cannot stop lmao.
You didn't think I love allah's apostle by any chance, did you?
Sorry. The very term 'slave' is an insult to humanity.
Because muhammad (piss BUH) is familiar with the term, that's why I used it.
I had just seen some time ago,SEX SCANDAL IN THE CHURCH,was it true,no,yeah?,not really ,cause the Pop is follower of holy.what?,the messenger can be wrong,but not the pop,why is the bible edited too much,lol,just found out the most annoying mistake's,
More supposed lying by GOD Almighty in the false and corrupt Bible:
1 Kings 22:21-23
21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
GOD Almighty gave the spirit the green light to go and cause lying. And yet they tell us: "thou shalt not lie"?
Hi Charlee,
Ali Sina has consistently stated that his solution to these problems is to educate Muslims so they will leave Islam and join the family of humanity.
His new project will hopefully be a powerful tool to accomplish this goal.
"I wish I could have my own website and then write what I am going thru and what made me change."
If you want to blog, Freedom Bulwark also has blogging here:
http://www.freedombulwark.net/my-blog
"Do I need therapy?"
If you choose not to see a therapist, there are some things you should know that will help you psychologically.
First, therapists will tell you that there are two kinds of mental issues – those caused by internal problems, and those cause by external factors. You have the second type. Your conflict and turmoil is caused by the implications your choice has on the way people in your life will see you and treat you if you lose secrecy.
Second, the first step towards finding a solution to psychological stresses and adjustments is to know in advance the steps you are going through and will go through. Ali Sina already referred you to his "About" article, but he goes into much more detail in his article, "From Belief to Enlightenment". Read it and familiarize yourself with the phases so that you can recognize the things that are happening inside yourself. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/misc/from-be…
Best wishes,
John
We are eager for this new project that is cooking and hope it will assist all, including ignorant sub-saharan African Muslims.
Surely the plight of African victims of Islam has received less attention than others, but I believe this is changing as people are bringing to light the Islam side of the stories.
Ali Sina's project will hopefully have global impact to assist all Muslims everywhere.
Thanks Ali, that seems like a good plan for now.. I will definitely check out those sites and see if I can find a nice Non Muslim shrink online.. I am sure it will help to let it out and have someone to talk to. I guess you are right, I have no other option but to keep on making the same lame excuse that I will go to hajj only when I get married and wihty my husband.. I just hope and pray that I don't end up getting married to a Muslim.. Even if he is a so called Moderate Muslim, he will eventually turn out to be a fanatic like the rest..Yeah you are right about the faith thing, even when I try to make myself sit and pray I just cannot.. Like this evening I was at my mom's house, I took the janamaz/musalla and went into the guest room, laid it out and just sat there.. I have to pretend that I am praying whenever I am with others. Now in Ramadan next year, I would have to pretend I am fasting as well.. This is exactly why I am depressed.. All this pretending makes me really sick from inside..
In the US we have a saying that when life hands you a lemon, make lemonade. That means to put a positive spin on things. So, when it's time to pray, consider it your time to sit and meditate. Similarly many religious traditions combine fasting with meditation. Also, you mentioned an interest in Christianity, so at prayer time, pretend you are praying to Allah, but instead pray to your Heavenly Father. If it is vocal prayer, your lips can say the word Allah, but in you mind you can remember that Arab Christians and Jews also call God "Allah". In other words, mentally redirect anything you are forced or obligated to do against your wishes into something that is compatible with your inner goals. Ali Sina suggested you start with the Bible. May I suggest that for beginners, the Book of Mormon is easier to read. It is shorter, has a smaller vocabulary, and remains in historical order and context:
Read it here: http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
Read about it here: http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/
Thanks John, I have already read that article which Ali had kindly copied and sent me by email since the site Faithfreedom is blocked over here.. I have a friend in the UAE and she could not even access this alisina.org nor any of the other sites mentioned in the links tab above..
You're welcome Shakila. You can visit blocked sites with the Tor Browser Bundle. It's portable, doesn't need installation, and can be run anywhere you have a copy of it.
Download here. Please pay attention to the additional security tips below the download button:
https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy…
Thank you, thank you, thank you… I finally managed to crack the firewall thanks to you. THis thing really works. I am now checking out faithfreedom.. at last..
I'm grateful it is working for you. It runs a little slower than standard internet, but it gets the job done.
Hey there Shakila
You are brave but you are not alone. There is a ministry for ex-muslim.
http://www.jesusformuslims.org/
Additional psychological factors that I meant to include above are Posturing and Victim Mentality.
In civilized conversation, mutual respect presumes communication among equals. Hoever, in posturing one person seeks to position himself in a higher position to gain advantage in the relationship. When this happens, the roles in the relationship are called the One Up and One Down positions. This is the root of Muslim supremacism. The Muslim places himself in a One Up position of superiority over the non-Muslim.
Let's combine this phenomenon with Victim Mentality. If you feel that Islam and the Community around you are a very big thing, and you feel like you are a very small thing, then you can succumb to the Victim Mentality in which you feel sorry for yourself because all these bad people are hurting you. Note Muslims also play this role when it is to their advantage to get some concession.
The way that you reverse these two positions is all in your own mind and attitude. All you have to do is look at these people as victims of Muhammad's criminality, mental disorders, and imperialism. Now with this simple mental adjustment, you have taken yourself out of the victim mode and placed them in the victim role. You have also removed yourself from the One Down position and placed yourself in the One Up position because you have superior knowledge.
Now you don't use this One Up position to dominate these people like they do, but rather use it as an island of safety from which you can minister to and serve these people. Think of yourself as a doctor working in a disease ridden disaster zone. All the people around you have been infected with the Muhammadan disease, and you are there to comfort them in their sickness and help them to get well. You can only take baby steps to nurse their humanity without talking about religion. But they are your family and your loved one.
Shaakeelaa, U have a beautiful name n u are a brave n smart woman who has to "battle" on yrself. When u pass the dark, long tunnel, u will see the "light' on the other end. Best of luck.
Thanks Everin..
Bear the unbearable. It may not last a very long. Just consider it as the Supreme God’s testing u. In the end u will find true happiness. Try to marry a muslim from a more liberal countries, like USA, UK, western Europe or even Malaysia And work yr way out from there.
No way. Don't even suggest she marry a Muslim.
Her escape has just begun. Don't let her remain entangled with Islam the rest of her life.
Thanks John.. I certainly do not intend to marry a Muslim, not even a so called moderate one.. I am finally out of the cult and there is no way I am ever going to go back there..
Her parent will force her to marry one. She will not have a choice in a strict muslim country. She is not in the free world, man. My suggestion is for her to have an escape route, n not got stuck to where she is. I wonder where did she learn English ? Of course, it is best to escape without being bonded in a marriage.
Everin I am in my late thirties and so far my parents have not been able to force me in to marrying anyone though they never stop trying. I am a very independent woman born in Pakistan and bred in the Middle East. I live alone and I even travel alone. My parents have no hold on me whatsoever but yes I agree that if I marry a non muslim they would defintely disown me for life.
Hey Shakila, i just read your story. I have to say, Im in the same boat as you. Ive been an exmuslim for the last 8 years or so myself, I too get lonely at times and even have to go to a jumma prayer just to put on a front that I'm still a good muslim to my parents. So i know what your going through. Ali Sina is right, listen to his advice, you will get over it this disillusionment soon. One thing that i wonder is what if there was a way for exmuslims to connect with each other personally. maybe develop a relationship with them. it certainly would help to cope with the issues.
Dr. Sina runs a website called freedombulwark which is very much like facebook but created for all kinds of kafirs to connect over the web. You do not have to give any personal details to register. So all you ex-muslims can connect there online. Whenever you come across an apostate online, you can ask them to contact you privately through freedombulwark. And if you want to meet someone in person and if you believe they are genuinely murtad, then I suppose you can exchange personal info.
But always remember, SECURITY FIRST. Never be in a hurry to give out personal information.
Yes, you are right kamran. There are alot of us in similar situation like Shakila's and needing some kind of connection. Give it a thought, may be something can be developed that could connect ex-muslims more and give them a better sence of belonging.
I congratulate you Shakila, you are brave with an admirable spirit.
Tell us how much of the links are helping you ? If it works, we would like to send more down the stream. There is always this guy called OSHO. Read about him online. He is soothing to the burnt soul.
Harrell and I created FreedomBulwark.net for this very purpose. I have not pormoted it. But it is for ex-Muslims and everyone in the anti Jihad movement to socialize. It is twitter and Facebook together.
Thank you Dr Sina, I will engage it. I recently sent a request for your "Understanding Muhammad", as it will greatly help in getting the message across. I sincerely need it.
Did I send the book to you? If not please write again. I receive a lot of emails and a lot of junk so it is easy to miss an important email.
I am yet to recieve the book having sent the request three times now, thruogh your "faithfreedom@gmail.com". But I do understand, you are a very busy man.
My email is faithfreedom2@gmail.com
Thank you, I will redirect my request.
"Harrell and I created Freedom Bulwark for this very purpose. I have not promoted it. But it is for ex-Muslims and everyone in the anti Jihad movement to socialize. It is twitter and Facebook together."
While the site isn't very active now, there is a small core group of us there who are ready and able to help Shakila with encouragement and support if she so chooses. Freedom Bulwark also provides private messaging is she has things she needs help with but doesn't want to write about publicly.
She also expressed a desire to write a blog. Freedom Bulwark also supports blogging: http://www.freedombulwark.net/my-blog
Freedom Bulwark does not have a Twitter-like function. Jonathan has discussed integrating Twitter, but at the moment the Twitter Updates section has this message:
"Twitter access is not allowed yet."
Facebook has one advantage over Freedom Bulwark. It has the option to receive notifications by email of Private Messages received and friend activity. This is important to ensure that messages are not overlooked because of not checking the PM inbox regularly, and also serves to promote the site and keep people interested in it.
If ex-Muslims like Shakila as well as commenters on this site would register on Freedom Bulwark, the community would begin to grow. I invite Shakila and anyone else interested to set up an account and invite me as a friend. http://www.freedombulwark.net/community/337-john/…
There is also a promotional video on FaithFreedomTV you can send to all your friends:
[youtube i0pL7zrZvh4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0pL7zrZvh4 youtube]
While the site isn't very active now, there is a small core group of us there who are ready and able to help Shakila with encouragement and support if she so chooses. Freedom Bulwark also provides private messaging is she has things she needs help with but doesn't want to write about publicly.
She also expressed a desire to write a blog. Freedom Bulwark also supports blogging.
Freedom Bulwark does not have a Twitter-like function. Jonathan has discussed integrating Twitter, but at the moment the Twitter Updates section has this message:
"Twitter access is not allowed yet."
Facebook has one advantage over Freedom Bulwark. It has the option to receive notifications by email of Private Messages received and friend activity. This is important to ensure that messages are not overlooked because of not checking the PM inbox regularly, and also serves to promote the site and keep people interested in it.
If ex-Muslims like Shakila as well as commenters on this site would register on Freedom Bulwark, the community would begin to grow. I invite Shakila and anyone else interested to set up an account and invite me as a friend.
Yeah John, I will surely check it out and set up and account and then send you a friend request.. I will add Kamran as well.
Great. See you there. Once you get going, I'll let some friends know to be sure to say hi.
There seems to be something wrong with the site.. I joined freedom Bulwark and my id is shakilakhan but I am not able to log in. Actually it did not send me a verification email to my address.
I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that Freedom Bulwark sometimes has an "Invalid Token" error.
I always check the box to remember my log in, but it never seems to remember on the homepage.
If you click on forums, there is a sign-in box that should work. If not, Tor Browser may be blocking a needed cookie, so you might have to get in without Tor. As a relatively inactive site, it should not be on your firewall block.
I'll send a note to Jonathan with your message too. I sent a message to you too.
When you registered, did it say you were supposed to get a verification email?
Hi John K, I can't access Freedombulwark at all because I've forgotten my password since last year or so and although I've tried so many times since then to reset it by following the instructions given as to key in the token, yet, it is still unsuccessful. So, that's the reason why I give up on Freedombulwark.
Have you tried logging in from the forum page instead of the home page?
If you have a password reset issue, that may complicate things too.
Should ask Jonathan about it.
Mr Johnathan Harrel is too busy with his own business than to help me with my password issue. Looks like I'm the only one here who can't access Freedombulwark.
How about if you set up a new account. You can be Grace, or you can be Agracean2 if you want to provide name recognition for your previous contributions. Then if Jonathan is able to straighten out your old account, you can go back to using it.
Ok, I'll heed your suggestion then.
Yes I fianlly managed to log in and without Tor this time asnyou said.. I would love to meet other apostates from similar as background as mine and this website seems like the best place to do that.. Thanks buddy..
Check your inbox for messages.
yeah, I agree with you there wolrdpeace, thats what we as exmuslims need, a sense of belonging. you hit the nail on the head. Yeah, agree with you whole heartedly there, I had the same impression of Shakila. very admirable indeed.
This is kind of a Jedi Mind Trick.
BTW, ex-muslims, everyone in the world has problems. Everyday is not the same. Emotional ups and downs exists in lifes of human beings. It is humane to be lonely, longing for company, to be sad, and to be joyous for no reason. Its OK. If you are worried let it be so. I survived by worrying wholeheartedly. I deliberately increased worrying. I kept on thinking about the worrisome topic without doing anything and within a space of six or seven hours the 'worrying' left me
.
Thanks Kamran.. It is nice and comforting to know that there are others like me in this world and who can understand what I am going through each and everday of my life. It is not easy to pretend to be something which you are not.. For instance I have a very old friend who believevs that all the kaafirs are dirty, unclean and not to be trusted. She even refuses to eat in restaurants who have Hindu or Bhuddist or any such staff who cook or serve. She said we are only allowed to eat food parepared by Muslims and other people of the book.. It is so difficult to be around such people who thing that Muslims are superior among the rest of the humanity. I wish there was a way I could make her see how wrong she is.. Or how wrong everyone is. My family, my relatives and my friends..
That's ironic. Here in the West we mostly observe that businesses in Muslim areas are not clean. Even 7-11, which has really high standards for franchise managers, has been found filthy in Muslim areas. I'm sure that doesn't mean all are, but it is a trend which has been seen in some areas.
Here's a true story:
A few weeks ago my father went to a conference where one muslim guy sprinkled a little 'muslim' perfume over a hindu lady. A 'muslim' perfume is something which only muslims use. I have never smelled this perfume on any non-muslim person. It has such an obnoxious smell that will choke you to death if you happen to go near a muslim (man or woman). With all honesty, the closest comparison can be made with smell of fresh piss (ammonia). As soon as the lady said that don't take it to heart but the muslim pefume smells very bad, the guy created a big fuss over this.
You cannot ever confront a muslim logically. It's certain destruction of your dignity right at the spot.
All it takes for these people to see the light is to read my book, but you should not suggest the book to anyone or your life could be in danger. Let them find out on their own. As I asid I am working on something big. They will see the truth eventually.
Hi Shakila, I'm not the least bit surprised about what you just said about Muslims not wanting to eat in restaurants with Hindu or Bhuddist staff. This just goes to show you how deep brainwashing they are suffering from. If you meet up with your friend again, I have a suggestion. Read an article on this site that points out the oddities of Muslims by comedian Jeff Foxworthy. Called 'Jeff Foxworthy on Muslims'. when I read what you were saying Muslims calling Hindu and Bhudidst 'dirty' reminded me of a joke from that article I read. it goes like this: If you wipe your butt with your bare hand, but consider bacon unclean, you might be a Muslim. ha ha Read the rest in Satire section of the Faithfreedom.org site, its hilarious and it will show you how blind headed muslims are about themselves. Mention one of the joke to your friend about this muslim odd behaviours and see how she reacts to it.
Hahaa.. That is a good one.. I will surely check out the site tonight when I come back from this same friends's house.. She is having a Hajj Valima at her place bcoz her in-laws just came back from Hajj and since tonight is the last night before Moharram, she wanted to have a get together at her place.. She is a Shia and a very stunch one as well.. She, her husband and her 4 year old son.. They all go to this Imaam Barga to attend Majlis every day from the 1st of Moharram till the end of Safar I think or maybe the first week of Rabi ul Awwal.. Can you imagine, for 2 months and ten days, wearing only black, no music, no tv, no cosmetics, no colored clothes, no fun, no parties, no laughing, not attending any one's birthday, anniversary or anything at all.. That is what these crazy Shia people do.. How can you hit yourself and cry your eyes out for 2 full months for someone who died 1500 years ago.. They are totally insane..
Shakila, It is not easy to severe the roots of our belief system, deep embeded in our psyche. It took me almost 3 decades to do the same, so, don't give up, don't leave the hands of reasoning and always keeep in mind the golden rule. Behave with fellow humans in accordance with the Golden rule. Gradually all your doubts will be cleared and you will be a truly free person. Best of luck.
Yes you are right, VRM.. It is indeed difficult and very painful to severe the roots of your belief system which you have had for half of your life.. I feel very disillusioned no doubt and hurt and betrayed.. I thought that Mohammed was the most beloved prophet of God, I loved that man more than anyone else in the world.. FOr me, Allah and Mohammed were everything.. And now I find out after 35 years that all that was just make believe and non existant.. There is no Allah bcoz a GOd cannot be so cruel, mean and sadist.. Mohammed cannot be a prophet bcoz he had all those qualities which are totally anti-prophet.. It hurts..
Hi People,
Reading this fellow OSHO helped me get over many a mind sickness. I hope you can benefit from his works.
Here are his quotes on Love. http://www.osho.com/Topics/TopicsEng/Osho-on-Love…
Here are his discourses: http://www.oshoworld.com/discourses/audio.asp
Do read/listen his stuff. He is as entertaining as Dr Ali Sina. He showed me a way out of my own personal hell. This guy is a good introduction to life for someone who has come out of oppressive cults. I draw inspiration from him to see people as people and idealogies as idealogies from him.
I thought he was a western psychologist for a long time, when I arrived at a surprise
Thanks a lot to both shakila and Rembrandt
Osho was a charlatan cult leader, a very corrupt man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_(Bhagwan_Shre…...
I have not started a cult, I don't have a philosophy to teach. I am not a guru, I am a critic of Islam, and an advocate of rationalism. I hope people follow their own intelligence. I advocate morality and conservative (Christian) values. Osho promoted free sex. He enriched himself by making his foolish followers to give him their belonging and had multiple Rolls-Royce cars. I live a simple life and never asked anyone to pay me anything, I even give my book for free, which is my source of income. I am not working for money. There is no comparision between me and Osho.
Osho was nowhere close to being perfect, but his messages are certainly worth considering. I would agree with Rembrandt that Osho's teachings can greatly help people (as long as one doesn't become a blind follower, of course).
Can one go wrong with Osho's ten commandments listed on the wikipedia page ?
Good words are dime a dozen. None of the "teachings" of Osho or anybody's teachings are original. People have known these facts for eons and have expressed them in many languages. Anyone can compile a list of great teachings that are truism and accepted by everyone and rehash them as his own. Muslims can show you many verses in the Quran that sound great. I can make a list of all the great words of Hitler. All cults, have some great teachings, even the cult of Charles Manson, His apparent message was respect for Air, Trees, Water, and Animals. These teachings are baits. The real message is power and sex for the leader. The greatness of a man can be determined ONLY in the measure that his deeds match his elevated words. Show me one such leader and I will recognize him as a superior human.
I think it would be wise for us humans to learn to differentiate between the teachings and the teacher. No one is perfect. If people stop teaching good things to others thinking they themselves couldn't act on those teachings, then the good teachings would fast go extinct.
The situation with Islam is a special one. The Quran, which is Allah's words, says Muhammad is perfect and is a role model. And that every muslim is required to follow Muhammad's and Allah's commands. Here, the messenger is so intertwined with the message that it makes it necessary to debunk both the message and the messenger. Osho's books do not require him to be seen as a role model. Even if Osho secretly desired to be seen as a perfect man, it never materialized and his followers are not stuck imitating him.
Fruit of a corrupt tree is corrupt.
Indians and especially hindus have the background who can easily separate the good from the bad in OSHO's teachings, not the world audience.
The world audience will be confused.
OSHO is the one who practiced what he preached and he knew it. If one follows his lectures, one will end up like him. I have read enough of his lectures to know what I am talking about.
NO ONE HAS THE ABILITY TO PRACTICE WHAT ONE ONESELF DOESN"T APPROVE OF, even the enlightened human beings.
But even his critics agreed that OSHO was an enlightened being. Those who know what enlightenment is know that words of an enlightened person has the sanction of the supreme soul, the supreme mind, the God. But enlightened mind retains the freedom and is NOT an absolute slave of the supreme mind – that's what the knowledgeable, educated audience looking for spirituality forget.
Sex and drugs are things that draws in crowd. Add spirituality to that, people remain mesmerised for years.
Osho's essence of teachings was to indulge in activities and cravings to the maximum degree possible to take the mind in a free state as in orgasm. These teachings are not supported by any religion on earth. He was more of a psychologist.
Osho himself didn't get enlightenment through his methods. His methods were his experiments with his disciples.
As much as I don't follow Osho, I hate it when anybody starts to insult Osho in any way.
Osho was anything but a hypocrite, i.e. whose thoughts, words and deeds do not match.
Sorry i don`t think anyone cares if you`re offended its called free speech.
Thank you for enlightening me.
This is what I wanted to convey. His works in the form of documented talks have explained religion to a lot of people.
Of the 625 books attributed to him only one talks about sex. The core objective of that one book even was to get rid of the affinity towards sex. People who read his talks appreciate the logic he brings into religion.
Reading his talks (Transcripts of his talks in meetings are his books) dissolved a lot of concepts about life in general and organised religion in particular.
The idea is to give people something to climb out of the abyss they got into. Getting out of Islam was earth shattering. The fear of the judgement day was the strongest on my mind.
Regarding My Use of Osho's work: I've never been to his meditation resorts. I have performed one of his meditations and never ever had sex using his work as a pretex.
. I don't read his works anymore btw. I used to read in the beginning of the apostacy and moved on to learning technology. Am an engineer now.
Osho's works can be read and thrown away. No one will be hurt. It can be downloaded for free online. No need to pay.
These are the reasons, I recommended him.Ofcourse there are other's works like Viktor Fankl's Man's Search for Meaning.
This (reading/training/meditating/work) is like Vitamin C. Take what works for your environment and leave the rest.
I infer from your post that you are an apostate, and I find it intriguing that Osho's teachings can give support to someone who just left Islam. Congratulations for successfully pulling out of Islam and finding purpose(s) for your life.
Thank you on the congratulations. I am much relieved.
Comparism or no comparism, Dr Sina you are going down in history lane as a great man. We ex muslims rally behind you not to glorify you like a prophet or cult leader but simply as someone who gives us comfidence to enjoy our lives of apostasy. For that, I, personally, am eternally greatful.
Hi Worldpeace, indeed Dr Ali Sina will live and die like a great man on planet earth, just like his idol, Dr Albert Einstein, who has contributed so much to humanity. But maybe you'll like to pose Dr Ali Sina this thought provoking question: What will it profit a man if he gain the whole world but loses his own soul? I think that you should ascribe all glory to the great and loving Creator God Who created Dr Ali Sina and you should be eternally grateful to Him Who bless Dr Ali Sina with such wisdom and knowledge to help you guys out of that shitty sinkhole because God is far greater than Dr Ali Sina while Dr Ali Sina is afterall a mere man like you who will return to the ground one fine day and like you, he's accountable to God for his life on planet earth.
You are correct there, Agracean. We did not create ourselves. We may have come into bieng by fiat of a designer or we just evolved. I feel that arguments about where we come from are knwon to you, so this is not my concern. My perspective, for a long time is "I did not ask any damn entity to create me". So, having been unsolicitedly created I should be allowed to use my reason and the multitude of humane literature developed by humanistic social instructors and philosophers to live my life. WHY SHOULD SOMEBODY SAY HE IS PERFECT AND SO I SHUOLD COPY HIM WITHUOT QUESTION? The problem we( ex) muslims face, is we are forced to follow, we are not allowed even to question or to doubt. So when one living in this kind of reality finds that out there there is somebody who gives encouragement and makes one feel one is not alone and that there is beauty and joy in saying no to that cult, it is a small thing to acknowledge that person, who in this case happens to be Dr Ali Sina.
Hi worldpeace, you don't need me to divulge the absolute truth to you, for truth will stand and speaks up for itself ie. You have no problems believing that you are the love product of your beloved daddy and beloved mommy. Why? All because this is the absolute truth! Please don't tell me that you are evolved from a chimpanzee. Based on your above comment, why don't you repeat the above question "I did not ask any damn entity to create me" to your beloved parents who make love and gave birth you?
You said, "WHY SHOULD SOMEBODY SAY HE IS PERFECT AND SO I SHUOLD COPY HIM WITHUOT QUESTION?" Come on, complaint king! Isn't it true that once you were born into this troublesome world, your body comes with a brain and have you totally forgotten what's the purpose and function of your brain? Nobody here, not even me or Dr Ali Sina, tell you to be a braindead ex muslim and not to use your pea size brain to think, question or reason and search for the Way, the Truth and the Life! You should go and look out for the absolute truth and not follow anybody blindly. Isn't this what my dear Dr Ali Sina always taught you to do so?
You may misunderstand me. I Have a brain and I am using it. That is why I left Islam and now cotemplating what humane ideology( including christianity) to follow which will be in tandem with my humanistic disposition. I appreciate Dr Sina for his untiring role of enlightenment and hope one day to have sufficient reason for appreciating you on similar level.
Oh, Mr worldpeace, I'm really comforted to know that one fine day, you will have many good sufficient reasons to appreciate me just like you appreciate my dear Atheist Dr Ali Sina on a similar level. What a privilege to be on par with my dearest Dr Ali Sina! :$
However, as you know, currently, our dear Dr Ali Sina, is just like you, is on a cruise to nowhere, wandering in the world with lots of atheistic ideologies and beliefs. I hope that you guys will settle down soon and come to the ultimate realization that our dear loving Creator God applied the law of the Universe and died in your place, to redeem you and to give you eternal life, that you may have life and life to the fullest.
world peace & Agracean :: Agracean – You are wrong and based on falsehppds . ISLAM is copied from christianity. Essentially both are same- but falsehoods. Nobody will die for you. God will not die for you . Then you are freed from any wrong doing ?? just becoz you worship him. U are responsible for your own solvation . You are not a sinner. U are a loving creature with loving soul.
Travelling from ISLAM to christianity is like jumping from fire to a frying pan. !!! remember that.
Dharma is noble.,eternal ,natural. Discover it.
Copied is too strong of a word.
Islam was invented by Muhammad. Books were not common in Arabia, so all Muhammad had to draw from was the repertoire of oral traditions he had heard. He didn't sit down with a Bible and copy stories, hence the Quranic version of Judeo-Christian themes is considerably different.
In addition, the thought milieu of Mohammad's environment was considerably richer than just Judeo-Christian elements. Mohammad is known to have been influenced by Zorastrianism, Hinduism, and the Arab pagan religion he was displacing, among others.
The direction of Muhammad's religious reforms were not original to him either. He followed the direction pioneered by proto-Islamic thinkers Zayd b. 'Amr. b. Nufayl and Abdul Muttalib (Muhammad's grandfather).
Saying that Islam is essentially the same as Christianity shows a serious lack of familiarity with the two systems.
Dear Mormon bird John K, you've forgotten to mention Waraqah ibn Nawfal's, that Christian Ebionite priest 's great influence on Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Don't you know that this horrible man was Muhammad's mentor and teacher and Muhammad adores him like a god that he even gave this Cult leader a garden in his paradise? It was this Christian Cult leader's fault for imparting all kinds of half truth and lies to Muhammad and grooming him to become the world's dealiest Cult leader ever lived on planet earth.
I think his influence on Muhammad is overrated. Had he been as close as you imply, at least the Old Testament influence would have been more accurate. Muslim sources indicate he became a priest, but to what congregation when there were only 3 Christians in Mecca? Of course, there were many who were searching for an alternative religion, and there were apparently several Arab tribes in the vicinity of Mecca that were Christian converts. He may have also had more connections than we know about since he was motivated to translate the Torah and Gospels into Arabic, but the Ebionites did not use any of today's existing Gospel's, but rather only one of the Jewish Gospels, and also rejected Paul's letters.
Muhammad's understanding of Christianity also evolved as his contact with Christians increased. He first became acquainted with the teachings of the Christians and Jews in his business trips to Syria with his uncle, Abu Talib, especially with the priest, Bahira (Sergius). Increasing references to Christian and Jewish history begin in 616 AD, indicating increasing study. In 622 treaties made with Christian tribes showed increasing, but still imperfect, acquaintance with Christian doctrines. In 630 we have the submission of the Christians of Nedjran.
Going back to the period of the Meccans taunting him for having other sources, they accused him of getting his Christian stories from Bahira. If Nawfal had been the greater influence, they would have accused Muhammed of getting his stories from him and Khadijah since they are the closer and more logical sources. Christian slaves in Mecca are another cited possible source.
Additionally, prior to Islam, Muhammad and 12 of his companions called themselves Hanyfs, and belonged to the Abrahamic sect of Hanifytes, also called Sabeites, not to be confused with the later Hanifite sect. This sect derived its teachings from the apocryphal Book of Abraham (Sura 87:19 and 53:37). This is where Muhammad got the legends of Ad and Themoud (Sura 14:9). In 616 AD Muhammad discovered that these books were forgeries, so he makes no further mention of them in future Suras. It was also that the name of Hanyf was dropped in favor of Muslim. Waraka believed in Muhammad as long as he continued true to the principles of the Hanyfs, but left him in disgust due to his later actions, and died a Christian.
Although the Ebionites were condemned as Judaizers, they did accept Jesus as the Messiah, so the Muslim version of the crucifixion was more likely an influence from Gnosticism, even though they had largely merged back with the orthodox Church by the time of Muhammad, who most likely selected this version in order to attract Jews to Islam because it portrays Jesus the same way the Jews do – as only a great teacher.
Scholars surveying Islam and its relationship with the surrounding religious environment have determined that Muhammad borrowed in several points from the doctrines of the Ebionites, Essenes, and Sabeites. Epiphanius finds the beliefs of the Ebionites of Nabath‘a, Moabitis, and Basanitis with regard to Adam and Jesus to be almost in the same words as Sura 3:52.
Dear Mormon bird John K, I strongly believe that Waraka bin Nawfal's influence on Muhammad was instrumental in helping to generate the Qur’an because Waraka Ibn Nawfal was the parental cousin of Khadija, the first wife of the prophet Muhammad, and was also the son of Muhammad's great-grandfather Hashim ibn 'Abd Manaf's half brother Nawfal ibn Abd Manaf. This shows the closeness of their relationship. Besides that, Waraka was a Christian Ebionite priest he was the only Christian revered in Islamic tradition for being one of the first monotheists to believe in the prophecy of Muhammad.
Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:
"..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.
No doubt that dead Nestorian monk, Bahira, played a part in Muhammad's early life by saying that he would be a prophet when he grew up and perhaps, this was the time in his life that Muhammad chanced upon the Old and New Testament of the Nestorian but I believe that it was Waraka who was Muhammad's close mentor and teacher, as you'll find that Muhammad's account of Jesus's death was similar to the Ebionite's biblical account.
But your citation above says he died just a few days after Muhammad's vision of Gabriel.
That means he would have been an early pre-Islam influence on Muhammad, but not have been alive to contribute to Muhammad's Christian thought during the evolution of Islam and its incorporation of Christian themes which did not occur until much later.
Come on, my dear big Mormon bird John K, do you know that Waraka bin Nawfal reportedly was the Ebionite Christian bishop of Mecca and performed the marriage between Muhammad and Khadijah? Do you have any idea how close their relationship were? Do you know that Waraka, upon accepting Muhammad's prophecy, remained a Christian and, in later accounts, was counted among Muhammad's companions? Well, Waraka could have laid the basic biblical foundation for Muhammad to build on but the revelation of the Qur'ân continued for more than twenty years after the death of Waraqah bin Nawfal, Muhammad claimed that he was receiving the revelation in different places and even while he was among his other companions. So, do you have any ideas who are all his other companions? Have you forgotten Safiya Bint Hu'yai bin Akhatab, his Jewish wife and also, Maryam-the Copt, hisChristian wife? Don't be surprised that Muhammad gained a great deal of religious knowledge from his these two pretty wives or rather concubines while he was having sex with them. xD
You are talking now, Agracean. I agree with you totally that "Muhammad ….. the world's deadliest Cult leader ever lived on planet earth". I think this is the theme of this site, telling the truth about islam so that humanity can be spared of its evil. Let us stick to this theme, no digression. You are coming across to me as a religious scholar par excellence.
yeah absolutely my friend.. Now it is our duty to expose him to the rest of the world.
Hi Mr dharma marg noble, after reading your above childish comment. Go and tell Buddha that you are not a sinner and that dharma is 'noble', 'eternal' and 'natural'. I believe that he will use the lotus root to knock some commonsense into your coconut head as he chant the sutra in the nirvana. xD
What's the problem with you? Buddha was just another imperfect man just like you, so his teachings could be errorneous and wrong afterall. How could you be so silly and said that dharma is eternal when Buddha doesn't even experience eternity when he was walking on earth?
What have you learnt from Buddha about the Karma problems? It's time you should visit India and interview all those high ranking monks what is Buddha's solution to the karma problems all human faced and then, you'll faint when you hear their replies! xD
You are absolutely wrong to say that travelling from Islam to Christianity is like jumping from fire to a frying pan! Let me correct you here by saying that coming out of Islam and following my beloved Lord Jesus Christ is like coming back to life from death and migrating from hell to Heaven.
That is so wonderful to hear. Yes indeed my dream was to make a difference and I am so happy to hear that at least I make that difference for a few people. Everyone needs encouragement once in a while and words such as your as a lot of encouragement for me. Thanks
Yes Dr Sina, you are making a difference, at least you made in my life. I am sincere When I said" I am eternally greatful" , nothing can change that.
Mr worldpeace, how can you be 'eternally grateful" to Dr Ali Sina when you and Dr Ali Sina don't believe that there's such thing as eternity or life after death? Are you lying or just fooling him and also yourself here?
"Eternally grateful" is a figure of speech and does not contradict one's belief piosition in life after death.
Oh, Dr Ali Sina, I'm glad to know that your dream is to make a difference in other lives. How about your own life? Let me encourage you to make a difference to your own life by coming to your senses that you are not a product of evolution. You have a loving Creator God Who created you in His image and Who loves you and come down personally from Heaven above and paid the price for the penalty for all your sins through His death on the cross that through the shedding of His blood, you may have life and life to the fullest. This is the new covenant in His blood. Now, this is the absolute truth. Hope that you will digest this absolute truth and come and follow Jesus, the Author of the Golden Rule.
Sina: "I am not a guru"
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Actually, Dr. Sina – "Guru" – that's precisely what you are. The Sanskrit word "Guru" has 2 parts – "gu" & "ru". "Gu" means darkness or evil or ignorance – and "ru" indicates the entity that removes. So, "gu" "ru" really means any entity that disperses or removes or ends darkness,evil or ignorance. Since your single-most-important objective is to bring rationality & objectivity – and use those as tools to shred the lie of Islam into pieces – you are one that 100% fits the term "GURU".
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Don't believe me – read it yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru#Etymology
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While I have scant respect for the likes of Osho; it will be a gross miscalculation to even, for a moment, think that you are not a guru.
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MN
While it may be correct etymology for the word, it has lost that sense in common English usage, especially in North America. Here the word guru conjures up images of the Beatles going off to India to bring back the Krishna movement, and hence a slightly negative, cultish connotation.
On the other hand, it is taken as an honorific in technical fields in the sense that someone highly knowledgeable in computers or automobiles can be called a guru too.
What's more popular, or more people relate to, need not necessarily be correct, right?
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Exhibit A: Islam. More than a billion people think it's a word that relates to religion, peace. The truth is far from it, isn't it? So, the true sense of Islam is lost in the whole world, except for a tiny minority like Amil Imani, Ali Sina, Robert Specer, Wafa Sultan & the fans-friends-supporters of such eminent personalities.
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All I'm saying is, we can't give up on the native-speakers' meaning of a word simply because a bunch of hippies in North America have the IQ of a dead vermin & degraded the word to mean something entirely stupid.
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MN
Guru in my language means common teacher.
That's prescriptive versus descriptive linguistics.
There's a lot of perfectly good words in the English language that have been ruined by the dark side.
Gay is one that comes to mind. You will never be able to use that word again in its old, innocent meaning of joy and happiness.
I read Osho's book "Awareness" & browsed through a few others of his.I admit the man speaks wisdom but I had no idea he was a cult leader & is also very critical of western culture.
One of his teachings that stuck with me was the one where he mentions that if you can stay fully aware in the present moment for 48 minutes straight,you'll become enlightened.Of course I tried with no success but that's like saying if you can sneeze with your eyes open or touch your left elbow with your left hand you'll become enlightened.
Most of his teachings seem to be taken from Buddhism.
The only man I call enlightened was Krishnamurthi and he said truth is pathless, you don\’t need to follow anyone to reach the truth, Follow your own reason. Now that is enlightenment.
Dear Dr Ali Sina, what if this dead ignorant Jiddu Krishnamurti's teachings and beliefs were all dead wrong? What if your own reasoning has gone horribly wrong? This is what you call as enlightenment and not stupidity? I wonder when will you made up your mind and be enlightened by the Way, the Truth and the Life and attain the true enlightenment?
Please give it a rest.
"This is what you call as enlightenment and not stupidity?" Well to be enlightement means to be free from all delusions. If you react with anger and emotion (like you are)then you can be pretty sure you are not enlightened. Of course i don`t think we can know if we are 100% delusion free because of how subtle some delusions are, but lower the passing grade to say 99% and i think you can have a good idea.
And what is that "true enlightenment", which is superior to reason.?
You seem to think enlightenment has something to do with mysticism. Nothing could be futher from the truth unlike what the buddhists and the "new age movement" believe, enlightenment has nothing to do with sprits, souls "spritual realms" or a "spirtual world" or any of that bulls***. No enlightenment is simple being aware of reality as it really is.
I agree, the enlightened one. But reality can be positive or negative. What happens if one is confronted with the latter.
We have to face it and not engage in self-deception. We (as in the atheists) don`t particle like, don`t particle welcome the idea that dead means dead, but we have to face that and not be like children running to daddy in our terror of the darkness. We have to be men becuse if their is one thing we cannot be accused of by anyone, and that is WISHFUL THINKING.
Hi worldpeace, true enlightenment simply means that after you've done your research, thinking, reasoning, questioning, homework, investigation, reading, studying, pondering, wondering, self examination, etc and come to the ultimate realization that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the life. Period.
Yeah I like that Krishnamurthi was sceptical but did not subcsribe to materialism.It's a shame he;s not that popular.
So the truth is clueless.
Hi Mr Arya Anand, there are many clues and evidences that speak of the Truth. Maybe it's you who is clueless.
And yet, you said earlier, "A good hindu becomes gandhi" – not a Jiddu Krishnamurti. Why? And why won't you alter that statement – even when you clearly see why a good hindu becoming a "jianist" or a pacifist capitulating to Islamic oppression is suicidal. As a recent Tamil song goes "Why this kolaveri" against us hindus, Dr. Sina? Why?
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MN
Let the kolaveri rest in peace now; it's already been few weeks.
I sense kolaveri in your words.
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And no, the kolaveri is not in me or my words. It's directly sourced from gandhi's advise to hindus – his advise that we not fight for our survival, that we always & forever remain 2nd class citizens in our own nation, that we offer our mothers, wife, sisters, daughters and all women to be raped if a muslim so wishes – that's where the kolaver really is.
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Read this from freedombulwark (remove spaces, because if I post with spaces, the comment is not appearing):
"http:// www. freedombulwark. net/ my-blog/ muslim-appeasement-was-an-inseparable-part-of-gandhia-s-quack-doctrine-of-non-violence. html"
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Moral Relativism in mass-scale was first employed by that vermin gandhi – and today, a close clone of it named Cultural Relativism is wreaking havoc in secular progressive European societies. That's where the *kolaverI* is – and gandhi is the source of it.
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MN
What is kolaveri? Wikipedia only gives the name of a song.
'kolaveri' in tamil = 'murderous rage' in english.
Wow! That's a strong word!
Indeed – "kola-veri" is a strong word. The local nuance of Chennai-Tamil dilutes the word to a large extent. Another example where the etymological/true meaning of the word has been altered by a particular group of speakers (and if I may add, Chennai Tamil speakers are not necessarily the native speakers of the ancient Tamil language).
– somehow it got tied back to Guru.
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I got to read this fantastic article a few minutes back, http://books.hindustantimes.com/2011/12/bhagavad-…
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Now, would Dr. Sina mind reading this – and still say that gandhi – who advocated the Gita – is what hindus should become? If gandhi was presented with such a situation he'd gladly support the ban on the gita in Russia – and he'll go into a fast to turn others around him into slaves to his stupidity.
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Personally, I find this news as a welcome-relief. Because, in places where common-law is recognized, this provides a precedent for other people to start filing appeals in the judiciary to ban other "extremist-sacred" texts. Obviously, Saudi Arabia will get a relief – and can officially ban Bible, Gita, Torah and what-not – but more importantly, hopefully, the likes of Dr Sina, Amil Imani, Wafa Sultan, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders & others can cite this trial as a precedent to pull the Quran in a court-room.
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Oh, that single thought is just so damn refreshing. I'm looking forward to see if the Gita is banned in Russia and if this leads to Quran being banned in all non-Muslim-majority lands across the world. Anyway, people who really follow the teachings of Shri Krishna can always look up at an online site for translations – the ban is definitely not going to impact the real/ true devotees.
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Imagine – a day when Quran is banned all over the world – except for some barbaric lands where women are stoned for being victims of rape. Finally, human beings would've been able to distinguish & separate themselves from barbaric imbeciles. Banning the Gita, Bible, Torah & what-not is a very small price to pay – to achieve the greater-good – of banning the Quran.
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MN
The main point is to get public recognition of Islam's evil. Reading it will further that understanding. The important thing is to get Muslims to stop recognizing it as the word of God. I think MacArthur's Shinto Directive is the best solution where all public manifestation was prohibited, but it was allowed for personal home devotion. Islam needs to be declared a subversive ideology like we did with communism and adherents prosecuted under existing sedition laws.
Some here have criticized me for applauding Russia's demolition of mosques, but as headquarters of a subversive ideology, it's like if we had allowed Nazi party headquarters to proliferate across the country during WWII.
Some here have also suggested that the violence-supporting Muslims are a tiny minority of extremists, but surveys across the Middle East show support for harsh Sharia anywhere from 50% to 80% depending on the country.
Apologists say the Muslims in the US are the good ones and aren't like the ones in the Middle East, but now a new peer-reviewed academic study shows 80% of US mosques are led by Imams that advocate violent jihad and promote such literature in the mosque.
The number is actually somewhat skewed because the 20% of peaceful mosques are poorly attended, which means that 96% of American Muslims worship in a mosque where violent jihad is advocated. Comments on this site proclaiming peaceful Islam are pure propaganda or gross ignorance.
Sharia Adherence Mosque Survey: Correlations between Sharia Adherence and Violent Dogma in U.S. Mosques
http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot…
4 weeks – that's really too much of time I've stayed away.
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Okay, back on track here.
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The idea of pulling the Quran into a judiciary – a court room – automatically means it will be viewed using the lens of rationality. Attorneys will question it, and a judge will pronounce a judgement – a legally binding one. If that doesn't shred the lies – what else can?
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Digressing here. Relevant to the story of Laminates from the Book of Mormon, here's a news item on Dr. Ron Paul & Muslims.
http:// http://www.washingtonpost. com/national/on-faith/muslims-say-ron-paul-is-their-kind-of-republican/2012/01/17/gIQA9oqH6P_story.html
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The Pakistani person seems happy that Paul is against supporting Israel. Indeed Dr Paul is an non-interventionist – so he will not interfere in what Israel does; which means no aid, no support. What the Pakistani fails to think of – is the same applies to Palestine, Saudi Arabia & Pakistan too. So, Hamas, Wahabbi sultanate & Jihadi-Military complex are all impacted – since their US funding will dry up too.
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The more sensible among the Muslims will indeed support Dr. Paul – and see that their homelands go down into the 7th century barbarian-infested hell-hole on earth. But, at least, the US & the West will have a chance – at differentiating between genuine human beings & human-shaped barbaric beasts.
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What say?
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MN
Banning the Quran will unleash apocalypse and armageddon and Last Day on earth.
That better start now than later when our children would have to face it.
Well, if that's what it takes, then so be it, but the purpose of this site is to use Truth to liberate Muslims from Islam and turn our enemies into our friends. In the Book of Mormon a mission to the Lamanites similarly got the good ones out before the war started.
A mental exercise:
Is banning the Quran more disastrous than burning the Quran (by pastor Terry Jones)?
It depends on the effect of the law. Both are methods to call attention to the evil in the Quran. Jones only eliminated one Quran. This left the others in circulation so that people can read it and learn why Islam is evil. If the Quran is banned, the evidence will be destroyed and Islam will generate martyrs for the cause. That's providing the ban is effective. Obviously copies will be hidden, and plus you have Maruf's millions (MM) who have memorized it. (or MMM = Maruf's Memorizing Millions — or is it Maruf's Mesmerized Millions? Yes, the latter is a more fitting description — "watch the pendulum – you are getting sleepy… sleepy… sleeee… zzzzzzz)
Good that you actually completed the exercise.
The hilarious part is MMM
I think everybody who visits this site will remember 'MaruFFF'. He fell into an unfathomably deep well of 'Quran memorization' and could never get out of it to engage in other topic. I am so sad that he got stuck in that 'Quran memorization' well. He is not going to come out of it until his proud death as a muslim after which he will again fall into a well of 'guilt and remorse' for resisting the glaring proofs on earth when he had the chance.
He made his own choice. Of course, the conscience is difficult to suppress in the sleeplessness of the middle of the night. On the other hand, maybe Muslims have a lot of practice suppressing conscience. It depends on the inner nature of the individual and the degree of humanity they have. Where there is no information, the conscience cannot operate. He has now been exposed to information.
El Padrino,
Many of the things Osho uttered (like 48 minutes.. ) he didn't elaborate in detail why he uttered as such like why 48 and not 25, 35, 38 minutes etc. He was a very intelligent man and not a fool to utter obvious like 'sneezing with eyes open'.
His points come from study of Indian scriptures, experience of yogis and his own.
To a western reader, I can say that his teachings are truly worthless.
Dear Dr Ali Sina, you said, "I have a great respect for Jesus, but I can’t believe in God. God makes no sense to me. The more I ponder upon it the more the whole concept appears ludicrous and puerile."
I'm really glad to know that you have great respect for Lord Jesus Christ, Who is also the Author of the Golden Rule. Please be informed that Jesus has said in the Bible that we have a Father in Heaven. He also said that He is the Son of God. So, I wonder how can you have great respect for Jesus when you doubt His Word and said that you don't believe in God? Are you calling Jesus a liar when you said that God makes no sense to you and the whole concept appears ludicrous and puerile? Please read the following vese:Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." Even Jesus openly declare that no one is good except God alone! What say you?
Previous writings I have seen from Ali Sina indicate that he believes the divinity claims were later additions to the accounts.
Dear Mormon John K, maybe I should help our dear Dr Ali Sina come to his senses and stop doubting the existence of our loving Creator God by quoting all the statements which Jesus said in the Bible that God is real and that He is the Son of God. Surely our dear Dr Ali Sina who has such great respect for our beloved Lord Jesus Christ will not accuse Jesus of lying, if he is a truthful man since it's coming from Jesus' own mouth and not from later additions to the accounts!
Luke 22:70-71 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
Matthew 16:15-17 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
John 5:19-21 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
This is circular reasoning again.
Why is jesus the son of god ? Coz, the bible tells me so. Who wrote the bible ? Someone who believes in christ…
Jesus can take as a legitimate propounder of the Golden Rule. Don't worry Shakeela will be saved in heaven even when she respects Jesus H Christ as a teacher than a messiah, and practices his teachings.
I meant
"Jesus can be taken as a legitimate propounder of the Golden Rule.
Don't worry!!
Shakeela will be saved to heaven even when she respects Jesus H Christ as an ethics teacher rather than a messiah, and practices his teachings."
It's like Ria said. Jesus' teachings are worthy of our adoration whether he is divine or not.
Hi Rembrandt, do you know why I'm so sure that Jesus Christ is Lord? It's because He died for my sins and paid the ransom for my soul so that I have this everlasting hope to be with Him when I enter into eternity. Shakila has to personally make the choice to receive Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Saviour, so that she can enter into eternity with Jesus as her guide.
Grace, the issue isn't that Dr. Sina is unaware of the Bible texts that proclaim Christ's divinity. The issue is that he doesn't believe that they are authentic. Jesus hasn't registered a user ID on this site to tell us whether or not he really said those things, so the only thing you can do is:
1) Evaluate the content of the texts and form your own opinion
2) Test the promise of the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Sina has explained that he has tried prayer and received no response. We have to respect that. You can pray for him, but it is really disrespectful and irritating to continually hound him and hammer him about being wrong. He asked you not to do it to me. He is being too humble to ask you not to do it to him.
Dear Mormon John K, the four gospels were written by four different witnesses and they record the words and things which Jesus said and did while he was with them. How many more witnesses does Dr Ali Sina need to believe that Jesus Christ is telling the truth?
I can understand why Dr Ali Sina tried praying and received no response because he is a shortsighted and impatient man who wants everything instantaneously ie. He pray for a son and according to his understanding, God must answer his prayer instantaneously and enable his wife to give birth to a baby boy now. No need to wait for 10 months. He doesn't understand that sometimes, God works in ways we can't see and He did answer prayers in His time.
It's not that I disrespect him or that I like to hound or hammer him for being wrong, it's because I love him and wanted him to come to the ultimate realization that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is God.
It's not for us to judge him. Don't let your enthusiasm smother your civility and respect.
Yes dear, dont force Mr. Sina to believe in Lord Christ,all you can do is pray for him, and let the Holy Spirit do some changes in him.(1 Corinthians 12:3) "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Hi Raks, don't worry, I'm not forcing our dear Dr Ali Sina or anyone here to believe in our beloved Lord Jesus Christ but by the grace of God, I'm trying my best know how to present the Way, the Truth and the Life to them and to convince them that now it's the time to get out of their stupidity and to search for the truth. As a Good Samaritan, this is the least that I can do to help my neighbours as per the Golden Rule. Of course, only the Spirit of Christ can help change a person's stony heart and mind and I'm just a vessel to bring good news to them. It's always been the case.
Yes i agree with you, i cannot understand how someone can not believe in jesus`s claims and yet still call him a good moral teacher. How can a liar be a good moral teacher? Ali Sina (and any other non-christians who believe Jesus was a good moral teacher) see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UImBPq4WI&fe…
I neither believe Jesus was divine, or a madman or a liar. I believe someone named Jesus existed. He, like Buddha, preached goodly moral teachings, but of whom we know nothing. The stories atributed to him existed in ancient lore prior to Christianity. There is so much parallel stories that recur in Christianity and in beliefs that preceded it that it is impossible to dismiss them all as mere coincidence.
I suggest you read a few articles or book by Acharya S or at least watch a few of the videos you’ll find in her site. http://www.truthbeknown.com/
Please watch this video http://vimeo.com/10815350
The Christian parallels with Horus would be interesting, but if they were true, you would think at least some of the elements would appear in the Horus article at Wikipedia. Calling it a virgin birth is a bit of a stretch considering the description of his mother's inpregnation:
"Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish, and used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a gold phallus to conceive her son."
Sun of God is a stretch too considering that Horus means "Falcon", and Horus was considered to be Sky, not the sun. As Sky, he encompassed both the sun and the moon:
"Sky god
Since Horus was said to be the sky, he was considered to also contain the sun and moon. It became said that the sun was his right eye and the moon his left, and that they traversed the sky when he, a falcon, flew across it. Thus he became known as Harmerty – Horus of two eyes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
I don't doubt Judeo-Christian elements in Egyptian mythology, but I think the author of this video has stretched the facts for the purpose of the message he wanted to convey.
Dr. Hugh Nibley, former professor of Ancient History at BYU wrote a book on the Egyptian Book of Breathings which is an analysis of its parallels with the contemporary Mormon Temple Endowment. A graphic from the Book of Breathings appears as a visual in the Pearl of Great Price. The Egyptians are thought to have received these influences from the Hebrews.
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Joseph-Smith-Papyri…
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
With this degree of license on Horus, I'm not going to track down the vidoe's parallel claim on the other deities. Wikipedia does have a good article on a proto-Indo European religion which is a common source to Brahminism/Hinduism, the Greco-Roman gods, and the Germanic/Norse gods. The Judeo-Christian tradition is thought to be separate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_…
Come on, Dr Ali Sina, have it ever came across your mind that if Jesus Christ is just an ordinary folk like us, how come He can have the power to heal the lepers, makes the blind see, the deaf to hear, raised the dead child and even His friend, Lazarus, to life? How come a legion of demons can obey his command to come out of a demon possessed man and even, confessed that He is the Son of the Most High God? Do you think that all these accounts and His fame are man made fables or stories that spread throughout the land of Israel during that time? Have you found anything wrong with Him to accuse Him of lying?
Dr Ali Sina, can you try to do one of the many good deeds Jesus has done above? Of course not! Why? Because you are just a normal human being and you are spiritually blind and spiritually dead, although you are physically alive and well. You can believe in all kinds of man made mystical teachings or logics that tries to denounce His Lordship but you can't deny the truth that even, in the spiritual realm, demons have to submit to His Name! That at the name of Jesus, every knee must bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord!
"He can have the power to heal the lepers, makes the blind see, the deaf to hear, raised the dead child and even His friend, Lazarus, to life?" I`ll grant it all it still proves nothing, like the jews are warned many false messiahs will come and do miracles in the name of false gods. Just like the magicians of pharaoh did miracles. Didn`t even Jesus himself warn of many false prophets that will come "and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect". So by Jesus`s own standard just being able to perform miracles does not mean their claims are true.
So true.
Hi enlightened25, no false messiahs or false gods you can find in this troublesome world would go to the extent of laying down their lives for you, so as to pay the price for the penalty of your sins, except Jesus Christ because He is Love and He is God!
Well if what Jesus said was true because he got killed for it then you will have to accept that the bab was true because he was executed by a firing squad or bahaullah who was tortured, exiled and imprisoned for the last 40 years of his life for his claim. Or Joseph Smith who was attacked and killed by a mob, or Jim Jones who killed himself in a mass suicide and David Koresh who was killed in a shoot out with the FBI. So no because a charlatan gives his life for his message does not mean he is truthful. So you have still proved nothing.
Well i am not talking about that Jesus (who`s existence is speculative at best), i am talking about the Jesus of the new testament, which is the jesus that you have praised. Let`s assume for a moment that all the evil things in the koran and hadiths were added later by the muslims and that the real muhammed was actually a buddha type figure. Would it then be right for me to start claiming look muhammed of the koran and hadiths was actually a great guy?
Robert Spencer is working on a new book, Did Muhammad Exist?
Obviously the historical figures we know through the texts may not be the same as the historical figures as they actually existed, or the same as the figures as they are understood by the popular culture in all its variety.
New Robert Spencer book coming next Spring: Did Muhammad Exist? http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/11/new-robert-spen…
Hi enlightened25, look at the fruits of Muhammad and you will know if he was a great guy afterall.
What about Jesus`s teaching eh? "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," Is that a Good moral teaching? Indeed virtually zero christians practice it nor did jesus the "sinless lamb of God" when dealing with his own enemies. Matthew 23:17 ("Ye fools and blind"), Matthew 12:34 ("0 generation of vipers"), and Matthew 23:27 (". . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .") are excellent examples of hypocrisy.
Hi enlightened25, let God be true and every man a liar. The truth is that there is no sin found in Jesus at all. So, isn't it obvious that every human being on planet earth, including you are sinners and liars too?
If Jesus was just another false Messiah that would mean his teachings were immoral with the intention to decieve and he would be a sinner. So the only way you can prove Jesus was sinless is to prove Jesus was the Messiah, which he isn`t as according to Deuteronomy 13 1 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for Jehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Clearly Jesus cannot be as he himself claimed to be God (and God according to judaism. Can't be born, die, suffer, "become flesh", or be divivded into sections) and he abrogated some of the laws, and his followers later abolished or changed nearly all of them; for example, Christians still eat pork and fail to celebrate Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanna despite what the Torah says. The Torah constantly says that its laws are eternal, and they can't be abolished or changed. So no Jesus is a liar and a sinner.
Well, I appreciate your points, but you are not going to overturn centuries of textual criticism and scholarship in the comments section. The Christian point of view is that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to help Israel while they still had the slave mentality from the Egyptian servitude.
The Bible records Moses going up to the mountain twice to get the tablets. The first time he got the higher law. When he saw the people weren't ready for it, he broke the tablets and went back up and got the second set which contained the lower law. When Jesus came he restored the higher law, which can be taken as valid whether you consider him a human or a God.
"but you are not going to overturn centuries of textual criticism and scholarship in the comments section." Ask any jewish scholar, any rabbi they will tell you the same thing nothing will ever supercede the torah. Jesus did not fullfill any the prophecies of the the messiah, the christians tried to cover that up by claiming their will be a second coming well a person that dies before they fullfill the prophecies is not the messiah. See why Jesus is not the messiah http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
Well, that's the Jewish position. That's like asking Obama what he thinks of the Republican presidential candidates.
It does not matter the jews have the evidence on their side, the chrstians don`t.
Beg to disagree!
Well, first of all, only the Old Testament counts. Talmud, etc are not considered divine. For that matter, much of the OT is only history as well, not "Thus saith the Lord".
Having read the OT multiple times, and having been instructor of OT classes from time to time, I've never seen anything that contradicted my views.
See this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SV3W1qr_r0
I didn't see anything of acceptable scholarly standards in this video.
You posted this video without considering what I said about a lifetime of reading and re-reading the OT as if I had never read these texts. The exegesis of these passages are very superficial. The reader sounds like a kid too.
John it does not matter if you have had a "lifetime" of reading and re-reading you are bias because of your religious belief. It specifically says does it not in Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an EVERLASTING covenant, and with his seed after him
Yet the christians claim their is a new one in complete contridiction to the above verse. You also forget the Pharisees who rejected jesus`s claim were not kids (as well as modern day rabbis) and knew/know the bible probably at least as well as you.
Sinse you didn`t like the last video because it was not scholarly enough and from a kid here is a few video`s from a rabbi in his 50s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHPr4fgYHW8 (part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYK3OuhroKQ&fe… (part 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TStI-_7icY8&fe… (part 3)
The problem is that you are assuming that I am a kid and operating with a bias. I am a professionally trained analyst, and you are approaching me with amateur analyses. The arguments you are sending me are Procrustean Bed fallacies where you are forcing things to fit where they do not. Pharisees had strong political motives for their position. In spite of today's proliferation of atheism, 40% of practicing scientists are still religious. Are all of them biased and don't know how to operate rationally? What I am telling you is that these are complex issues, and you are not going to solve in simplistic arguments what professional scholars have been unable to do in hundreds of years of work.
"I am a professionally trained analyst, and you are approaching me with amateur analyses." So, you can be a professional analyst (and i think you mean of biblical texts)and be a christian, jew, mormon atheist, muslim or whatever. It gives no weight to your arugment whatsover. Indeed the bible is not a history book, it is a book of myths the historians admitted no exodus ever took place, moses did not write the torah and their is no evidence any such person existed. "Are all of them biased and don't know how to operate rationally?" What the religious scientists do is called Compartmentalization. For example you can be a nuclear scientist, but still believe their is going to be a resurrection of the dead and you`re going to get 72 virgins. But the 2 things are not reconcilable.
"So, you can be a professional analyst (and i think you mean of biblical texts)"
This is incorrect. Look at my profile.
Compartmentalization is a hypothesis. How will you test your hypothesis? What data do you have to make a declaration about what I am doing? These are simply rhetorical devices to enable you to dismiss thoughts from those you disagree with.
"Compartmentalization is a hypothesis. How will you test your hypothesis?" Well lets ask ourselves a few simple questions can you be a biologist and believe Jesus was born of a virgin, yes. Can you be a cosmologist and believe the universe is 6000 years old yes. Can you be a physicist and believe muhammed acended to heaven on a flying horse yes. So yes scientists can have absurd beliefs and still be great scientists. Is the belief in the resurrection of the dead, (just to take one example) scientific?
Of course a biologist can believe Mary was born of a virgin. Have you ever heard of artificial insemination? If man can invent such a simple thing, what complexities is a god capable of?
You really amaze me by the narrowness of your thinking. How can you be so intelligent in responding to Muslims yet so blind on other matters? Well, as we have both said, people who are gifted are not necessarily gifted in everything. It is even said Einstein could not go shopping without a list.
It is not necessary to ask me about Muhammad because I am not Muslim.
Why does resurrection bother you? People from primitive societies always think technology in a higher society is a miracle. But I bet you don't have trouble with the transporter on the USS Enterprise. How is that different from resurrection?
What you are forgetting is that I was born and raised a scientific atheist. I didn't convert until my 3rd year of university work. That means that while my brain was formed, all of my weltanschauung, points of view, perspectives, and paradigm was developed from the scientific atheist point of view. There isn't anything that you can say that I haven't thought or said myself. So please don't treat me like I am the new kid on the block.
"Of course a biologist can believe Mary was born of a virgin. Have you ever heard of artificial insemination?" So the holy sprit has a physical body? God has sperm? That god is finite, a alien nothing special about him. But no i cannot say its impossible that a alien artificially inseminated mary, but such a thing cannot be proven.
"It is not necessary to ask me about Muhammad because I am not Muslim." I was not asking about him, i was just making the point.
"Why does resurrection bother you?" How can your body after it has become dust be remade? What body is it going to be the one you die with? What about newborn`s are they going to be remade with a eternal baby`s body? Or a fertilized egg will that be resurrected? Or people who are brain dead is their consciousness going to come back?
"How is that different from resurrection?" The question is why do you believe in ressurrection and not for instance reincarnation?
I think I have posted amply on the evidence of the witness of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for your friendly comments. I know some of our early exchanges were rather sharp, and the human thing to do is to nourish a grudge, so I appreciate that you have been willing to re-engage in a friendly manner.
"I think I have posted amply on the evidence of the witness of the Holy Spirit." I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
"Thank you for your friendly comments. I know some of our early exchanges were rather sharp, and the human thing to do is to nourish a grudge, so I appreciate that you have been willing to re-engage in a friendly manner." To me these discussions are just a clash of ideas nothing personal for me, so i am not going to be holding any grudges.
Thanks. I think it's great to agree to disagree. I am just asking not to give simplistic answers to complex issues. Islam lends itself well to that type of thing because it is really a legal system rather than a philosophy.
I have written frequently about the need for mutual respect in order to form an alliance to defeat Islam. We could not have defeated the Nazis in WWII if the allies couldn't get along – which they barely did anyway.
Hi enlightened25, this verse sums up all your above accusations and doubts. John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 13:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
So God changed his mind? His revelation was not perfect the first time round? And anyway where is your proof jesus was from god? why you believe in him and not muhammed or bahaullah?
I am really happy.. Bcoz I have actually accomplished something in a very short time.. It has been just over a month since I gave up Islam and I have already managed to convince someone else to do the same.. A friend of mine who was also always sceptical about many things about Islam is my first convert.. Or at least she is on the way there.. She has seen this site and since she is an Arab, it proved really helpful to have it in Arabic.. Now I need to know if Ali Sina has his book "Understanding Muhammed" in Arabic.. If he does, I really need to forward it to her..,
Congratulations. Good luck with it. Be careful about who you trust though.
I feel so glad for you because already you are not alone. And I agree with John K – Safety and security FIRST. Advise your friend to be safe too.
You can also connect to other murtads through freedombulwark if you can access it.
Good Luck
Being a non-muslim, it's really troublesome to talk to muslims about Islam in real world. They don't even want to listen about Islam from a non-muslim in real world.
Only muslims have the credibility to muslims. Only they can engage the other muslims in a debate.
There are many different sects of Islam if you dislike the Muslims in Saudi Arabia (Salafi) as some Salafi can be extreme in there belief (not all salafi)
I dislike there hatred for the other sects of Muslims as they are forgetting all Muslims are Muslims
Read about the other Sunni sects,Shia sects, Zadi (5ers) and the Sufi orders
Do not let an extremist take away your faith
-JSOP
"Read about the other Sunni sects,Shia sects, Zadi (5ers) and the Sufi orders"
Who told you people didn't read about these sects?
Have you read the book written by Ali Sina 'Understanding Muhammad'?
One of challenges by Ali Sina is that muslims just need to read it cover to cover completely and prove that they read it.
What is the harm if that book does not have logic and are based on false stories?
Waste your time here if you get any 'kicks' on this site.
The only sect of Islam that we are against is the one where they think Quran is holy and they follow the Sunnah of the prophet.
Congratulations for your first "convert". But please be careful. Your frist duty is to stay safe and out of trouble, Don't trust anyone including your best friend. In a culture that parents can kill their own children you should trust no one at all. For now use the Internet. Open a new email account with a fake name and help other Muslims annonymously. We don't need martyrs. Every time they kill one of us they become stronger and we lose. Muslim's strength is in violence, We should not give them that victory. Their vulnerability is is truth, That is where we are stronger. So live long and safe and spread the truth.
Yes Understanding Muhammad is translated into Arabic. I will email it to you.
Thanks Ali. I have already forwarded the book to her and she said she is going to finish it this weekend.. She is an open minded Algerian woman who is sick of her family, her mother and father are fanatacis and she is totally losing it.. She was over at my place earlier today and we both finished up a bottle of wine to release our stress of the week.. I am not a very regular drinker but I don't think there is any harm to have a few glasses once in a while.. Come on, no God is going to burn you in hell just bcoz you like to have a few glasses and have fun.. That is insane by any standards..
Hi Shakila, I agree. There is no harm if you driink responsibly.
But please do take Ali's advice seriously. He knows the enemy. Your safety and security are very important.
Ali, as for your book. Can you focus more on absurdities of Quran verses for next edition?Bacause I learned there are some muslims that don't believe in hadist or history that disparage Muhammad as in your book. They only rely on Quran or hadist that exalt Muhammad.
That's being selective about hadiths. Muslims who deny sahih hadiths are going against mainstream Islam in order to make Islam look better.
David Wood explains the pattern of Muslim behavior here:
Qur'an Error: Does the Sun Set in a Muddy Pool? (Surah 18:86)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhHDgKnE9r0
I think shifting the focus of Dr. Sina's book would be counter-productive. The sites already suffer from the main issues being obscured by the multitude of minutia that Islam is vulnerable to. We need to keep the focus on the primary problems.
Hi Shakila. I have never been a Muslim myself but your story touches and inspires me. At least you are a proof that this website is making a difference to humanity. Your Story encourages me to know that whatever struggles I have in my life which look like mountains, that I am not alone. Please keep safe, be careful about sharing your believes to people who may know you or your family. And keep writing.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.. U can't even begin to imagine how it is to be born and brought up in a Muslim family.. It is indeed a living hell..
If more apostate still pretend to be muslim , there'll be a day when a whole bunch of silent majority of apostates still discuss about the beauty of Islam among them just to show that they're still muslim.
I don't think they will talk about the beauty of Islam. The key word here is "silent". Don't oppose, but don't support either.
Maybe they will wake up one day and wonder why no one is talking about Islam anymore.
but the most important is their children. If their children still muslim, even after 10.00 year the world wil be the same.
let teach our children about this evil islam, so that they can't get Taqqiya-ed
Important but difficult to do without being turned in by your own children.
The situation will be funny as hell
.
Agracean, "eternally greatfull", is a figure of speech and has nothing to do with believe in eternal life after death.
shakila
i see u have hatred for islam ,so if u hav 2 marry some muslim goat who was arranged by ur parents, what will u do?? (i'm not suggesting u shud go 4 an arranged marriage). wont u get into trouble then? it is probably difficult to marry a muslim and try 2 b a non-muslim. u may have 2 suffer even more than now. if the world around u is as per ali then only few solutions are visible to me .marrying an atheist or b in celibacy or getting out of ur country.
i wont suggest u 2 accept christianity, it is the same shit with different look in all abrahamic religions.
Ali Sina
Osho was deplorable sick man but If you ink and dismantle some other cult along with Islam. I will be grateful to you particularly Osho since his perverted book/message are sold all over country.
I’m freethinking Hindu (and proud of my heritage and but we must not dismantle our morality on account of being freethinking.
You quoted in your debate with Dr Zaheer
When a prostitute was brought to Jesus, he said let the one who has not committed sin throw the first stone. – Jesus
And a line from Hindu Goddess
“Kindness is to be shown by a noble person either towards a sinner or to a virtuous person or even to a person who deserves death, for, there is none who never commits a wrong.” —Goddess Sita Hinduism Valmiki Ramayana Yuddha Kanda Sarga 113 verses 46
These are message of love and compassion. We must not encourage free sex and other perverted thinking in the name of freethinking. Osho fan call themselves freethinkers and say morality is not essential. Kindly dismantle these retarded fans of Osho.