Aisha: The Child Bride of Muhammad
The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is disturbing. The only name for that is pedophilia – one of the most despicable crimes imaginable.
All humans, including animals, are protective of children. A child’s cry for help, any child, even the child of other species, arouses tenderness in most animals.
Pedophiles are amongst the sickest people because they violate the trust of children.
It is hard to believe that the prophet of Islam, the man literally worshipped and emulated by over a billion benighted souls was indeed a despicable pedophile.
Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his “marriage” (read raped her) when she was nine. He was then, 54 years old.
The evidence is overwhelming, it is reported by Aisha in dozens of hadiths and never Muslims questioned it up until now that people have started raising an eyebrow.
Let it be clear that Muslims are not ashamed of the fact that their prophet was a pedophile. They themselves have practiced this heinous act for over a thousand year and many of them are still doing it. They are only embarrassed that the world is questioning them for it. But the proof is overwhelming.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is not true.
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”
Arabs were a primitive lot. Yet they had some code of ethics that they honored scrupulously. For example, although they fought all the year round, they abstained from hostilities during certain holy months of the year. They also considered Mecca a holy city and did not make war against it. An adopted son’s wife was deemed to be a daughter in law and they would not marry her. Also it was customary that close friends made a pact of brotherhood and considered each other as true brothers. The Prophet disregarded all of these rules anytime they stood between him and his interests or whims.
Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to their customs Ayesha was a niece to the Muhammad. Yet that did not stop him to ask her father to give her to him even when she was only six years old.
But this moral relativist Prophet would use the same excuse to reject a woman he did not like.
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
It was said to the Prophet, “Won’t you marry the daughter of Hamza?” He said, “She is my foster niece (brother’s daughter)”
Hamza was Muhammad’s half uncle. In Islam marrying first cousins is acceptable. Muhammad refused to marry Hamza’s daughter, not on the ground that he was his Uncle, but with the excuse that Hamza was his foster brother. Abu Bakr was also Muhammad’s foster brother. So what was the difference? Aisha was a pretty little girl whereas Hamza’s daughter was not.
The moral relativism of Muhammad becomes further evident from this hadith.
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: What is unlawful by reason of consanguinity is unlawful by reason of fosterage.
In the following Hadith the self proclaimed prophet confided to Ahisha that he had dreamed of her.
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Allah’s Apostle said to me, “You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, ‘Uncover (her),’ and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.
Whether Muhammad had actually such dream or lied is not the point. Dreams are revelations of our own sub-conscience and not messages from the world of spirits. This shows that Aisha must have been a baby being carried by an angel when Muhammad lusted for her.
There are numerous hadiths that explicitly reveal the age of Ayesha at the time of her marriage.
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham’s father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging.They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
In the above hadith we read that Aisha was playing on a swing when she was taken to Muhammad’s house, which proves there is no mistake that she was indeed a child.
Some Muslims claim that since all these stories are recorded in hadith we should ignore them altogether. This is nonsense. Child marriage is permitted in the Quran. 65:4
Now as for such of your women as are beyond, the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses, their waiting-period – if you have any doubt [about it] – shall be three [calendar] months.
This verse is saying if you want to marry a widow or a divorcee, wait for three menstruations to make sure she is not pregnant. This applies also to those who do not have any monthly courses, i.e. prepubescent girls.
Aisha was so small that she had no knowledge of sex when Muhammad “surprised” her by going to her.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah’s Apostle to me in the forenoon.
It must have been quite a surprise!
The following hadith demonstrates that she was just a kid playing with her dolls. Pay attention to what the interpreter wrote in the parenthesis. (She was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty)
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated ‘Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Muhammad died when he was 63 years old. So he must have married Aisha when he as 51 and went to her when he was 54.
Muhammad had many wives and concubines, but he was not in love with anyone of them. These young girls were his sex toys. Muhammad’s real love was Khadijah. If you want to know why you have to read my book, Understanding Muhammad: A Psychobiography of Allah’s Prophet. The relationship between Muhammad and Khadijah was not based on love, but on co-dependency. These two individuals were both needy and sick
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 33
Narrated ‘Aisha:
I never felt so jealous of any woman as I did of Khadija, though she had died three years before the Prophet married me, and that was because I heard him mentioning her too often, and because his Lord had ordered him to give her the glad tidings that she would have a palace in Paradise, made of Qasab and because he used to slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat among her friends.
Yemeni women hold up the Quran and Arabic placard reading "yes to the legal rights of the Muslim woman" as they take part in a protest outside the parliament in San'a, Sunday, March 21, 2010. Some of Yemen's most influential Islamic leaders, including one the U.S. says mentored Osama bin Laden, have declared supporters of a ban on child brides to be apostates. The religious decree, issued Sunday, deeply imperils efforts to salvage legislation that would make it illegal for those under the age of 17 to marry. (AP Photo) (AP)
Khadija died in December of 619 AD, two years before Hijra. At that time Muhammad was 51-years-old. In February 618 AD Muhammad married Aisha and took her to bed 3 years later.
Muslims are not ashamed of the fact that their prophet was a pedophile, but embarrassed for everyone knowing it some of them claim that Aisah was older, maybe 16 or 18 years old when she married Muhammad. That is not true. Aisha said that as long as she could remember her parents were always Muslims.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 245
Narrated ‘Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam),
If Ayesha was older, she would have remembered the religion of her parents prior to becoming Muslims.
Now someone may still claim that all these hadiths are lies. Muslims are free to say whatever they want. But truth is clear like the Sun for those who have eyes to see.
Why would so many devout Muslims fabricate so many false hadiths about the age of Ayisha, to make their prophet look like a pedophile? These hadiths cannot be denied.
I can tell you why people would attribute false miracles to their prophet. Babis believe that Bab started to praise God as soon as he was born. There is a Hadith like that also about Muhammad too. Christians believe the birth of the Christ was miraculous and the Jews believe Moses opened a dry passageway through the Red Sea. Believers love to hear miraculous stories about their prophet even if they may not be true, but no one would fabricate lies to portray his prophet as a villain. If such stories are told in such large number, they must be true.
Controversies about the age of Aisha
The majority of Muslims agree that Aisha was only 9 years old when Muhammad married her and allow marriage to children in their laws.
Most Islamic sites make no apology for her young age and accuse the modernists for humbugging the Westerner’s morality and denying the truth.
The site Islamonline.com explains: “It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age” and argues that the marriages of Muhammad were to foster political alliances with their fathers and tribes. This is nonsense. Muhammad married Safiya after beheading her father, torturing to death her husband and massacring her entire tribe. He married Juwariyah after raiding her people, massacring the men and robbing their wealth and taking the women and children as slaves. He took Rayhana, the 15 year old Jewish girl of Bani Quraiza after massacring all the men and boys who had reached puberty. With whom he wanted to make alliance? What a shameful excuse to defend a war criminal. What Muhammad did was disgusting, but it is just as disgusting when Muslim apologists try to acquit him of his crimes with such a shameless excuses.
As for Aisha, she was the daughter of Abu Bakr who was a friend and the primary supporter of Muhammad. Muhammad did not need to have sex with that fool’s daughter to foster more friendship with him.
Muhammad was cult leader. He had brainwashed Abu Bakr. That benighted man would have done anything to please Muhammad. When you submit to a cult leader, you submit your intelligence and your conscience. To understand the dynamism in the relationship between the cultist and his leader I invite you to read my book Understanding Muhammad.
Despite all these evidence, some Muslims deny that their prophet was a pedophile. This is not because they don’t know it. Pedophilia is the law in most Islamic countries. They want to save face.
On one hand it is good that they know what Muhammad did was shameful and don’t try to defend it, but to do so they lie. They are the true hypocrites. Instead of coming to their senses, they hide the facts and twist the truth. Muslims have no shame. Muslims do not have human qualities. They are brain dead zombies. This is what cults do to people.
The following is one example of the kind of arguments Muslims present to deny the obvious.
(Source: http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm)
- According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu’l-tafseer) Aisha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an, was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
Answer:
Why should we believe in this narrative and not in those detailed about Aisha herself, describing she and her friends was playing with dolls who hid when Muhammad entered the room, or her memories of playing on the swing when her mother called her and washed her face and took her to Muhammad? She said how ignorant she was in matters of sex when Muhammad started touching her and “surprised” her. These things are more likely to be remembered by a child than when a particular Surah was revealed. The site continues:
- According to a number of narratives, Aisha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Aisha ‘s (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
Answer:
This is a weak excuse. When the Battle of Badr and Uhud occurred Aisha was 10 to 11 years old. She did not go to be a warier, like the boys. She went to keep Muhammad warm during the nights. Boys who were less than 15 were sent back, but this did not apply to her.
- According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Aisha (ra) was ten years older than Aisha (ra). It is reported in Taqri’bu’l-tehzi’b as well as Al-bidayah wa’l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer:
When someone gets that old, people don’t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable to the younger folks and 100 is a round figure. Younger people always think older people are much older. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. People did not have birth certificates. Asma was not an important person and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy.
- Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah — the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Aisha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH — the time she most likely got married.
Answer:
Tabari’s narratives do not have the distinction to be known Sahih. The person narrating it was wrong. There are many hadiths narrated by Aisha herself that have more weight.
People remember important events better than those that are insignificant. The date of the birth of the children of Abu Bakr was not an important subject for Muslims to record. But the details of Muhammad’s life and his marriages were important. As you can read in the story of Safiyah’s wedding even the kind of food served is recorded.
- According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Aisha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Aisha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Aisha ‘s (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Aisha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Answer:
The apologist fails to provide the references to the hadithes that he quotes. In any case this is an error. To understand and accept a religion, one must be at least intelligent enough to make such decision. That is about 15 years old. But let us be generous and say that age is about 12. If Aisha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam, she must have been 26 years old when Muhammad married her. (12 + 14) Are we then supposed to believe that Aisha at the age of 26 used to play with her dolls?
- Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am — with whose son Aisha (ra) was engaged — and asked him to take Aisha (ra) in his house as his son’s wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Aisha (ra). Now, if Aisha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Aisha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
Answer:
It was an Arab tradition to betroth a girl to a boy even when the girl was a newborn. This tradition is still carried on in many Islamic countries. This is no proof that Aisha was a grown up.
- According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Aisha ‘s (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word “bikr” in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is “Jariyah”. “Bikr” on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a “lady”.
Answer:
This explanation is incorrect. Bikr means virgin and, virginity is not age specific. In fact Aisha was the second wife of Muhammad (after Khadijah) but Muhammad did not consummate his marriage with her for three years because she was too young and Abu Bakr begged him to wait. So he married Sauda bint Zamah, whom he mistreated because she was not pretty.
- According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Aisha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer:
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Aisha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Aisha must have been 30 years younger than Muhammad. So at the time of her marriage when he was 54, she must have been 24 years old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadiths that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older than Aisha and died in 73 Hijra. In that case at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old. The truth is that she was 17 years old. The two hadiths presented by the same apologist contradict each other and all other hadiths because both of them are wrong.
It all goes to show that in those days numbers did not mean much. It is more likely that people were wrong on dates that events. The reports of the tender age of Aisha is consistent with the stories of her childhood, playing with her toys, her girlfriends hiding when Muhammad entered the room, the Prophet playing with her, her ignorance about sex and her “surprise” when Muhammad came to her. All these confirm that she was a little girl.
This apologist argues:
It is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.
I could not have said it better. Not only marring children was not part of the culture of any nation, it is actually contrary to human nature. Psychologically sane men don’t find little children sexually attractive. Muhammad was not psychologically healthy. He was a pedophile. He was a victim of childhood abuse. To understand him and what went on in his sick mind, please read my book.
How he got away with it? He claimed to be a prophet and as such put himself above the scrutiny of mortals. Who dared to question Allah and his messenger? He had control over the life and death of the people in Medina. He acted very much like other cult leaders such as Jim Jones in his Jonestown, who slept with any woman he pleased, and like David Korsh in his compound, who had sex with every woman and even with the teen daughters of his followers while prohibiting them to touch their own wives. People who fall prey to cults do stupid things. They kill, like the followers of Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara and Muhammad; they commit suicide like the followers of Jim Jones, David Koresh or the Heaven’s Gate. Islam is a cult and Muhammad was a cult leader. I have explained this point extensively in my book.
“In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Aisha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.”
Answer:
It may not have been a tradition then, but since Muhammad set the example, every Muslim pedophile finds justification and validation for taking children as brides and the ignorant parents, who are often poor, let their little girl to be raped for the greed of money.
what these liars. The truth in Islam Islam make a women as a princess Islam gave the woman everything she want and protect her from anyone can hurt her
You Muslims have always not only made fun of other streams of belief rather you have killed, looted, stole, forced to follow your so called stupid Islam………in the whole world. History is half full due to you bastards only by your barbarianism. Now a man tries to expose you very rationally then you try to loath him?
Shame on you….for being a Muslim…a Barbarian…a chronic Liar……..
Hi Ali have you read "Age of Aisha" written by "Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalvi ", what do you think about that ?. Thank you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5LZHTEv1BI
Jakob,
The u-tube did not open, so I have no idea what it contains. Given your excitement, one is bound to believe that the author of the video has attempted a denial of Aisha's age. It will not be the first time that such a denial has been made. But one thing the deniers do not address their minds to is that not everyone is as dumb as they are. They try to refute the facts given by Aisha about herslf. How can the deniers who live or lived several hundred years after Aisha know more about her as she did about herself? It is amazing stupidity.
[youtube e5LZHTEv1BI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5LZHTEv1BI youtube]
-Jakob
Those who follow Ali Sina never have healthy brain.
I tell you brothers and sisters, all Ali Sina wants is your hatred to Islam and muslims.
don't you realize that you are now being brainwashed? your hatred is being raised up to your head as if you want to kill Muhammad and all muslims.
Read carefully what he writes about Islam, he never speaks politely. I suspect he never knows what polite means. His writing is full of hatred, insult, and offence.
I don't believe someone who has good education can speak like kids.
ALI SINA IS THE REAL SATAN. …
America was founded on the practice of rape of Indians and black slaves, no matter what age, and white men were not charge with crime for raping either group. This practice persisted right up to the twentieth century.
incidently when the US Navy furlows in southeast Asia, the sailors head for the 10 year old prostitutes like they're in some kind of pedophile heaven, so check your self.
The owner of this website is mentally out of sound, At last he will taste the death after wards he comes to Know who was on donkey and who was on Horse. Hell To YOU BASTARD. YOU ARE NOT A CHILD OF HUMAN BEING THAT FUCKED YOUR MOTHER
Always the deflection to history tha you have no proper understanding of.
Conveniently forgetting the barbarity of the imperial Japanese war machine that was enslaving, and murdering most of of the citizens of south east Asia
Resisting all signs that they war losing the war and needing a clear demonstration that the war was ended.
You sir lost the argument in the first comment you made but it has been amusing to see you use he same old worn and discredited tactics of every single apologist for Islam. The game is up. You have been fooled by your parents into following a screwed up orphan who lived off his wits and set up a cult.
Time to put down the opium pipe and use that brain it's taken millions of years to develop to find a better justification of being kind to your neighbours, without the very unpleasant side effects.
I felt really sick imagining that old man touching the privacy of an innocent kid who was still playing with dolls!!! OMG!!! I am livid! It cant go away, no matter what! Its true Islam's tenets are perverted and purely carnal it is the problem, not muslims, they are only spiritually blind and lack the Holy Spirit to reveal to them the Truth about Jesus Christ, The Son of the Most High God. Then they can have real peace in their hearts. I feel so sad for you muslims having to defend a thing(you call it religion) that should naturally defend itself. Try the Bible, its flawless, no contraditictions with Christ. He set his record straight and is coming again to deal with the liar. The man who says he is not Christ the Messiah. Christianity is not a religion, The Bible says the best religion is looking after widows and orphans, following Christ is a Spiritually mystery without the Holy Spirit you miss the mark. I pray that as many of you may escape Hell with this lie! AMEN
sick is your muhammad who had it with a 9 year old child
you are a very sick person
unfortunately, many of the people who have written comments hold double standards. Yes, she was six when she married (some narrations say nine) but you have failed to realise the reasoning behind her young marriage. Consider some points: A) PAEDOPHILES DONT GET MARRIED, THEY PREY ON GIRLS. B) Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet, he recieved revelations, he was commanded by Allah to marry her and her marriage with him was an extremely prosperous one. You do not see marriage to a nine year old as a norm- this is the only reason you are refusing it.
HAZRAT AIESHA WAS 14 YEARS WHAN HER NIKAH WITH PROFIT MUHAMMAD (SAV) AFTER HIJRAT WHEN AIESHA (RA) GO IN HOUSE OF PROFIT SAV) WHEN SHE WAS BETWEEN 17 AND 18 YEARS WITH THE REFERENCE OF ASAD AL GHABA (BOOK ) AT THIS TIME YAHOOD O NISSARA MUNAFIQEEN AUR MURTADDEEN MAKE A BAD PROPEGANDA ABOUT OUR NABI AQDAS BUT THEY ARE NOT LOOKING THERE YOUNG GIRLS UNDER 10-15 IN EUROPE UK AMERICA ETC THIS GIRLS ARE MAKE SEX WITH THERE BOY FRIEDS AND THEY ARE BORN CHILDERNS WITH OUT MARRIAGE I AM REQUESTING DONT LOOK AT OUR PROFIT S LIFE CONTROL YOU DOUGHTERS FROM ZINNAH ANR BORN BABIES WITH OUT MARRIAGE THERE BABIES NAME HARAMMI AND HARAMMI PERSONS MADE PROPEGANDA AGAINST OUR NABI (SAV)
There is no controversy about the age of Aisha in hadith. There was no such controversy for the last 1400 years. Today Muslims want to make it look like controversy because the shit has hit the fan and they are trying to as much damage control as they can.
I do not know why some people are hell bent here when we know there is great controversy over the age of hazrt aisha…okay agreeing with hadis that aisha married prophet at the age of 6 or 7 and commusated at the age of 9 or 10 but do you know what is the age of puberty of a girl it starts usualy ats at the age of 8 or between the age of 8-13 it is quite obivious that girls at this little age would like to play with toys and friends nothing wrong in it and hadis does not say about the puberty of aisha thus it rejects your every and each claim that prophet muhammad (pbuh) nauzbila was phedophile
I do not know why some people are hell bent here when we know there is great controversy over the age of hazrt aisha…okay agreeing with hadis that aisha married prophet at the age of 6 or 7 and commusated at the age of 9 or 10 but do you know what is the age of puberty of a girl it starts usualy ats at the age of 8 or between the age of 8-13 it is quite obivious that girls at this little age would like to play with so it rufrutes your all claims that toys and friends nothing wrong in it and hadis does not say about the puberty of aisha thus it rejects your every and each claim that prophet muhammad (pbuh) nauzbila was phedophil
Mr. Ali sina
tell me
1..how was abu-baker frost brother of prophet (s.a.w) WHEN IT IS CLEAR FROM YOUR ARTICLE THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD S.A.W SAYS THAT ABU-BAKER IS HIS BROTHER IN ALLAH,S RELIGION THAT IS ISLAM AND AS MUSLIM SO ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC DOES THAT MEAN BROTHERS IN RELIGION LIKE IN MUSLIMS CAN NOT MARRY
2. how you can say THAT hamzas daughter was ugly prove me WITH evidence
3. how you can say early marriage was never practiced in Arabia when even today you can have cases of early marriage in Saudi
4. how did Aisha remembered her age WAS 6 but was not able to remember her parents religion how can 6 year old kid can remember her age unless she must not have told by some one
5. how can a person who useS to play with toys and friends can be called THAT he/she has not reached to puberty as i can show you the people who reach puberty even play with toys or friends at the age of 16
6. if prophet Muhammad was 'pedophile' why did he waited for three years after getting married to AISHA FOR intercourse
7. if Muhammad (pbuh)was pedophile how did he married older women as well
ALI SINA QUOTES: The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.”
10.IF THE MARRIAGE NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MANNER WHY DID NOT HARDHAT AISHA RE MARRIED AFTER THE DEATH OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD WHEN SHE WAS JUST 18 YEARS OLD ACCORDING TO YOU
9. WHAT PROPHET,S MARRIAGE HAS TO DO WITH THE MARRIAGES OF COUSINS IN ISLAM WHEN HE CLEARLY SAYS HAMZAS DAUGHTER WAS HIS FROST SISTER IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT IF TWO PEOPLE WETHER COUSINS OR NON COUSINS HAVE SUCKLED THE MILK FROM SAME WOMEN THEN MARRIAGE BETWEEN THEM BECOMES HARAAM.
where i can see my posts
how to see the post that i posted right now
Thanks mr.sina
this is response to your claim that aisha the "child wife of prophet Muhammad" to ali sina i have doubts at certain points and wish him to clear.
1.we know hardhat Aisha was the most respected, renowned, and most intelligent wife of prophet Muhammad s.a.w
2. there is no verse in the Qur'an which says about the marriage of prophet and thus no evidence of age of hardhat Aisha so that you can prove it
3.there is already controversy over the age of aisha's age
4. the only source of history of Islam is hadis
now you will say that we defend you claim and this is lie going back to your artical
A.
Originally Posted by Ali Sina
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."
Originally Posted by Ali Sina
But this moral relativist Prophet would use the same excuse to reject a woman he did not like.
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
It was said to the Prophet, "Won't you marry the daughter of Hamza?" He said, "She is my foster niece (brother's daughter). "
Hamza and Abu Bakr both were the foster brothers of Muhammad. But Ayesha must have been too pretty for the Prophet to abide by the codes of ethics and custom.
from your own article you claim that prophet muhamaad said to abukar for marriage
and abu baker said we r brothers
then it clearly shows prophet s.a.w we r brothers in Allah's religen(islam)
it clearly shows they were brothers as Muslims just like all Muslims are brothers all Christians are brothers and so on so prove me how does the brothers in Islam can become frost brothers does that mean if Muslims are in slam they can not marry
you then said hamza was frost brother of prophet yes
Umm Habiba, the daughter of AbuSufyan, reported: "…I said: I have been informed that you have given the proposal of marriage to Durrah daughter of Abu Salama He raid: You mean the daughter of Umm Salama? I said: Yes. He said: Even if she had not been my step-daughter brought up under my guardianship, she would not have been lawful for me, for she is the daughter of my foster-brother (Hamza), for Thuwaiba had suckled me and her father. So do not give me the proposal of the marriage of your daughters and sisters." [Sahih Muslim Book 8.3412]
hamza was frost brother of prophet no doubt but tell me how abu-baker became frost brother of prophet when you your self claimed that prophet said to abu-baker they are brothers in ALLAH,S RELIGION FROM HADIS
B. HOW does it prove playing with dolls and friends proves that the person has not attained the age of puberty i can show you even a people at the age of 16 to 18 use to play with dolls and friend does that mean they are imature and have no puberty
C.most important
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 245
Narrated ‘Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam),
If Ayesha was older, she would have remembered the religion of her parents prior to becoming Muslims.
ANS No doubt aisha was too little to remember the religion of her parents at that age BUT KINDLY PROVE ME IF SHE WAS ABLE TO REMEMBER OF AGE WHY SHE WAS NOT ABLE TO REMEMBER OF HER PARENTS RELIGION
D. BY ALI-SINA
“In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Aisha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.”
OKAY AGREED BUT WHAT THIS HISTORIAN COLIN TURNER IS SAYING THEN IS HE MAD IF SO WHY DO NOT PROVE HIM WRONG
ACCORDING TO HIM CHILD MARRIAGES SUCH AS LIKE THIS WERE RELATIVELY COMMON IN BEDOUIN SOCIETIES AT THE TIME AND REMAIN COMMON IN SOME SOCIETIES EVEN TODAY HE SUGGESTS THAT MARRIAGES WERE NOT SEEN AS IMPROPER IN HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND THAT INDIVIDUAL IN SUCH SOCIESTS MATURED AT AN EARLIER AGE
MHEN AYEHA WAS 16 YAERS OLD THEN HER NIKKA WITH PROFHIT MUHAMMAD RASULALLAH AND WHEN SHE WAS 18 THEN HAZARAT AYESHA TRASNS FERED TO RASULALLAH BS HOUSE HAZARAT AYESHA LIVE 9 YEARS WITH RASULLAH (SAV) THIS IS A PROPEGAND OF YAHOOD O NISARA THAT AYESHA WAS 9 YEARS WHEN SHE MARRIED WHID RASULALLAH (SAV) ALL MUSLIMS OF THE WORLD NOTE PLEASE WHEN AYESHA ENTER IN RASULALLAH S HOUSE WHEN SHE WAS 18 YEARS OLD SYED IBNE SYED MADINA MUNAWARA
… Islam is Satanic filth. Mohammed is the AntiChrist. THE TIME COMES WHEN WAS WITH THEM WILL BE NECESSARY”12″: The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of drkenass, and let us put on the armour of light.
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@ winoceros
So it satisfies you to feel pity for us and think that anyone trying to advice non-Muslims to look at Islam from a different angle is stupid? 😉
I don't have to answer you no more then but I have done my part to help you see Islam in a way different from Ali Sina's.
misogyny?
I have never once in this site found your hero Ali Sina mentioning that Rasulullah Muhammad (PBUH) during his spare time in his busiest day would always want to do household work to help his wives… or even brought up times when he decided to be fasting, instead of blaming his wife, in a certain day when finding that she had not prepared anything for meals. 😉
As with the punishment for adultery that seems cruel is actually a kind warning from Allah not to let man fall into the trap of this temporary life, because what you see as liberty in male-female relationship particularly in sating your sexual desires is actually your door to becoming a slave of your own lust.
Like I say, the last thing I advice you is to ask Muslims yourself whether they feel forced or not to live the way they live, and not through irresponsible testimonies of those pretending to be ex-Muslims.
Good luck in your life Sir/Madam
Congratulations. You have answered none of the questions. You are unable to defend your own misogyny. I do not care how devout young Muslims are. They are only more dangerous to themselves and others. News? I am reading your statements. I am asking you questions about your positions, and you do not answer.
This makes all Muslims look untrustworthy if we can go this far and still not have you answer the questions put to you.
It also makes you, personally, look a little stupid, and too clever by half. Answer the questions.
Winoceros: "I'm interested in the human right to exert control over one's own relationships, existence, health, and personal liberty."
This really shows how arrogant you are…
Please travel and have direct conversations with female Muslims. Now, you are probably influenced by your government acts as 'the world police' that anything that you see as 'wrong' from your point of view is definitely wrong.
No, sir/mam.
Muslims girls and women live the way they do now by their own choices and they probably laugh at you who has come to thinking that they are forced or their personal liberty is taken away. Please Sir/Mam….. go travel and ask them directly
It will probably astonish you to find out that most younger generations are now practicing Islamic teachings in a much better way than their parents used to do…
i.e a lot of young Muslim girls are now wearing jilbab (head cover) while their Muslim mothers still don't.
A lot of young male Muslims go to mosque to perform sholatu jama'ah (together) while their Muslim fathers still don't.
A lot of younger Muslims memorize the whole Surahs in the Quran while their Muslim parents do not even have one single Surah memorized.
You see my point Sir/Mam? Younger Muslim generations here live in Islamic way not by force but by their own will after learning that their elders have been somewhat influenced by cultures other than Islam's….but that doesn't make us hate them. On the contrary, it is us the younger generations that should introduce the original teachings of Islam to them.
In your position, how can you rely your assumptions only on news from western media but never see in real life how happy Muslim girls and women live their lives across the globe?
Again, my advice to you…..go talk to them directly if you have a chance…;)
((reposted from thread below))
“Mohammad didn't need anyone to chaperone or give Khadijah away to him. He just worked with her, and liked her, and respected her, and wanted to get married. She said yes.”
Hmm, wrong story… please check again
————————————-
The point is that they married of their own volition, did they not? She liked him and he liked her, and after working together for a while, they fell in love and got married. But now you've prissed it all up and turned it into a slave trade.
—————————————
Winoceros: Your implication here is that if the boy doesn't want to marry the girl, that the parents should have recourse. What recourse is that, since you didn't want to write it down earlier? What then?”
No, I was trying to imply that I will educate my family with guidance of Islamic teachings in accordance with my capabilities so I will not experience such a condition most likely to happen in a society where promiscuity is highly encouraged.
————————–
Ostrich defense. You cut out the part where you implied that the parents should be allowed some recourse, instead of being left laughing through their tears. What recourse should that be? (For other people, of course, since your family is perfect!)
——————————-
Winoceros: “It disgusts me to no end that you consider a marriage a handoff of responsibility for a female's upkeep to another male, as if she were a cow to be fed and watered. What is wrong with you backward thinkers? She is her own person! If you would let them work and go to school (ALL of them) and hold any position of authority they wish then you wouldn't need to worry about making her someone else's chattel and broodmare. What a disgusting culture.”
No, wrong assumption again. In Islam, mothers are those from whom children are getting their first education in life, so it is us the males that are to support their household needs, but please also notice that female Muslims are also encouraged to contribute in different aspects of life so long as they are doing it within Islamic principles by strictly upholding the heejab.
——————————————
This is quite possibly one of the most disgusting answers I have ever read. You seem to have this overarching assumption, right down to your soiled little core, that she needs anyone's permission to do anything at all. She doesn't need to do anything within the bounds of anything unless she wants to. Why can't you see that? Do you like people to be slaves?
————————————
Winoceros: “Also, I just wanted to affirm your choice of Bukhari as a collection of sahih ahadith. It seems that it's such a reliable and valuable resource, it must be relied on by many, many Muslims, right?”
Hmm, your point?
—————————
Just convenient how Bukhari is a great resource when you have a point to make, but when others rely on it for exposing the filth that early Muslim followers were proud to record, somehow it's unreliable. Just checking.
One another question on the topic of your crazy logic:
How do you tell the difference between a "girl's" assent through silence, and her fear of saying "no" due to consequences such that she doesn't speak?
I mean, how would you know?
((reposted from below for clarity in the thread.))
@ winoceros
Winoceros: “Here is my explanation: I would not kill my daughter, nor force her to marry, even if she were "silent". You have not explained what you would do.”
I did say to you that I will have much smaller chance of having to deal with such condition if I stick to Islamic teachings and I am sure that my children’s journeys in life start in my own family.
If I am still alive when a truthful caliphate has risen then I would ask the caliph’s or his truthful companion’s opinions about what I should do if such a case happened to me.
But like I also told you, Rasulullah has advised us to have a fatwa from our hearts to deal with a condition where no truthful caliph is ruling and ‘maksiats’ are everywhere to find.
What we are doing here now is to return to Islamic teachings as a couple of decades back, we were not paying that much attention.
————————-
You have avoided the question now for the third or fourth time. Are you that arrogant so as to assume hardship won't befall you and yours? These things only happen to other people? Infidels because they're so dirty? Answer the question: What would you do and what should happen if the boy in question doesn't want to marry the girl? Should there be a law that compels some action? If so, what?
———————–
Winoceros: “The more you write, the more you lay out why no sane human would ever follow this degenerate cult.”
Don’t mean to be bragging… but hey look around and see even there are more people of your own getting tired of the American way while some of them start coming into Islam. Are you saying they are insane?
————————–
The "American way" isn't a religion, so you just highlight that Islam isn't really a religion either, since you compare them so comfortably, but a lifestyle. And, oh God, yes, they are utterly insane, and self-loathing.
———————————
Winoceros: “Silence is consent? You even have the temerity to write that it applies to a girl, not a woman. What girl? Underaged girls? 16? 15? 12? Does it matter to Muslims how old she is? Why can't she just pick her own husband and mind your own business? What does she need these controlling elders for? If she's 18 she shouldn't need your permission for anything anyway.”
Again, you are promoting your culture here. While me, I was just explaining the Islamic concept of marriage. Whether you want to accept, deny, or ignore them, it is all up to you.
—————————
Oh, I know what you were explaining. You did that instead of answering the question. I'm not interested in Islam's marriage laws. I'm interested in the human right to exert control over one's own relationships, existence, health, and personal liberty. What do you mean when you say "girl" and at what age does her "silence" no longer mean consent? A two-year old is silent, and (possibly) unpenetrated, is she marriage material? I know, that's silly, right? Ok, what about six? Eight? Nine? Eleven? They're pretty talkative at that age! Answer the question.
—————————–
Winoceros: “What does pornography have to do with anything? There is more downloaded porn in the Muslim world than anywhere else on the planet. You, as a whole, are a sexually repressed and frustrated people, and you do it to yourselves. Self-control is different than this stifling, unnatural repression that you codify yourselves into living.”
Pornography of course is a media that easily leads teenagers to promiscuity . I’m not denying that it probably is true that porn is downloaded more in the Muslim countries. But I also would like to confirm that we are finding this very destructive and how I have seen people I that know familiar with porn are getting sick of it and regretted that they once were.
————
Utterly irrelevant, as was bringing it up in the first place. Who thinks porn isn't harmful? What does that have to do with a person's freedom to marry who and when they choose, and pursue the life they wish without threat of violent harm or incarceration for not following the moral values of others?
Winoceros: “Mohammad didn't need anyone to chaperone or give Khadijah away to him. He just worked with her, and liked her, and respected her, and wanted to get married. She said yes.”
Hmm, wrong story… please check again
Winoceros: Your implication here is that if the boy doesn't want to marry the girl, that the parents should have recourse. What recourse is that, since you didn't want to write it down earlier? What then?”
No, I was trying to imply that I will educate my family with guidance of Islamic teachings in accordance with my capabilities so I will not experience such a condition most likely to happen in a society where promiscuity is highly encouraged.
Winoceros: “It disgusts me to no end that you consider a marriage a handoff of responsibility for a female's upkeep to another male, as if she were a cow to be fed and watered. What is wrong with you backward thinkers? She is her own person! If you would let them work and go to school (ALL of them) and hold any position of authority they wish then you wouldn't need to worry about making her someone else's chattel and broodmare. What a disgusting culture.”
No, wrong assumption again. In Islam, mothers are those from whom children are getting their first education in life, so it is us the males that are to support their household needs, but please also notice that female Muslims are also encouraged to contribute in different aspects of life so long as they are doing it within Islamic principles by strictly upholding the heejab.
Winoceros: “Also, I just wanted to affirm your choice of Bukhari as a collection of sahih ahadith. It seems that it's such a reliable and valuable resource, it must be relied on by many, many Muslims, right?”
Hmm, your point?
@ winoceros
Winoceros: “Here is my explanation: I would not kill my daughter, nor force her to marry, even if she were "silent". You have not explained what you would do.”
I did say to you that I will have much smaller chance of having to deal with such condition if I stick to Islamic teachings and I am sure that my children’s journeys in life start in my own family.
If I am still alive when a truthful caliphate has risen then I would ask the caliph’s or his truthful companion’s opinions about what I should do if such a case happened to me.
But like I also told you, Rasulullah has advised us to have a fatwa from our hearts to deal with a condition where no truthful caliph is ruling and ‘maksiats’ are everywhere to find.
What we are doing here now is to return to Islamic teachings as a couple of decades back, we were not paying that much attention.
Winoceros: “The more you write, the more you lay out why no sane human would ever follow this degenerate cult.”
Don’t mean to be bragging… but hey look around and see even there are more people of your own getting tired of the American way while some of them start coming into Islam. Are you saying they are insane?
Winoceros: “Silence is consent? You even have the temerity to write that it applies to a girl, not a woman. What girl? Underaged girls? 16? 15? 12? Does it matter to Muslims how old she is? Why can't she just pick her own husband and mind your own business? What does she need these controlling elders for? If she's 18 she shouldn't need your permission for anything anyway.”
Again, you are promoting your culture here. While me, I was just explaining the Islamic concept of marriage. Whether you want to accept, deny, or ignore them, it is all up to you.
Winoceros: “What does pornography have to do with anything? There is more downloaded porn in the Muslim world than anywhere else on the planet. You, as a whole, are a sexually repressed and frustrated people, and you do it to yourselves. Self-control is different than this stifling, unnatural repression that you codify yourselves into living.”
Pornography of course is a media that easily leads teenagers to promiscuity . I’m not denying that it probably is true that porn is downloaded more in the Muslim countries. But I also would like to confirm that we are finding this very destructive and how I have seen people I that know familiar with porn are getting sick of it and regretted that they once were.
<<Arab American News reported that the last recorded dispute between Jessica Mokdad and her stepfather was over the wearing of the hijab (head scarf), which he originally forced her to wear (just as in the honor murder of Canadian teen Aqsa Parvez). Jessica didn't want to wear it, thereby bringing shame on him and the family. Her stepfather, Rahim Alfetlawi, who murdered her, was pathologically controlling, after the pattern of honor killers. At one point she called her father and told him: "Dad, I can't live here anymore, he's too strict, I can't even go to the store to buy a pop if I want."
Macomb County Assistant Prosecutor Bill Contaldo said: "He thought she was becoming too Westernized. I think this was a very nice young lady wanting to experiment with Western culture without control and without abuse." The Detroit Free Press reported: "Mokdad's mother told police that Alfetlawi felt so shamed by her daughter's Western ways, he killed her in an honor killing," Warren Police Sgt. Stephen Mills said. Alfetlawi was so concerned about her behavior that he even forced her to go to a mosque and marry her boyfriend.>>
Jessica is dead because she wasn't Muslim enough for her devout stepfather. In the absense of the true caliph, of course, what punishment should he receive?
Here is my explanation: I would not kill my daughter, nor force her to marry, even if she were "silent".
You have not explained what you would do.
The more you write, the more you lay out why no sane human would ever follow this degenerate cult. Silence is consent? You even have the temerity to write that it applies to a girl, not a woman. What girl? Underaged girls? 16? 15? 12? Does it matter to Muslims how old she is? Why can't she just pick her own husband and mind your own business? What does she need these controlling elders for? If she's 18 she shouldn't need your permission for anything anyway. What does pornography have to do with anything? There is more downloaded porn in the Muslim world than anywhere else on the planet. You, as a whole, are a sexually repressed and frustrated people, and you do it to yourselves. Self-control is different than this stifling, unnatural repression that you codify yourselves into living. Mohammad didn't need anyone to chaperone or give Khadijah away to him. He just worked with her, and liked her, and respected her, and wanted to get married. She said yes. And you somehow find that model too loose for your misogynistic standards? You said earlier: "She conveniently picked a condition wherein the boy agrees to marry his pregnant girl friend so the marriage can be okeyed by the district judge after permitted by her parent's.
But what if the boy refused? Let her parents laugh in tears?""
Your implication here is that if the boy doesn't want to marry the girl, that the parents should have recourse. What recourse is that, since you didn't want to write it down earlier? What then?
It disgusts me to no end that you consider a marriage a handoff of responsibility for a female's upkeep to another male, as if she were a cow to be fed and watered. What is wrong with you backward thinkers? She is her own person! If you would let them work and go to school (ALL of them) and hold any position of authority they wish then you wouldn't need to worry about making her someone else's chattel and broodmare. What a disgusting culture.
Also, I just wanted to affirm your choice of Bukhari as a collection of sahih ahadith. It seems that it's such a reliable and valuable resource, it must be relied on by many, many Muslims, right?
@ winoceros….. continued
Winoceros: “The more likely scenario is that if she says anything against her father and mother's wishes she knows she'll end up punished or locked in some room for the rest of her life until she assents, so she says nothing.”
Again, you are ignorantly stating an assumption here due to your lack of empathy for a far different culture from your own. If you have a descent job and have some money to spare, please spend some time to travel and visit different countries to see how diverse human cultures across the world are.
Winoceros: “As to refusing, you have not yet explained what you would do if your unmarried 15-year-old daughter or 18-year-old daughter who lived with you or didn't live with you, became pregnant.”
Why should I owe you an explanation when I know it is you who has a much bigger chance to experience such condition? Hmmm, given the increasing, legalized porn activities in your country? While we, in this influence of the morally degrading culture, will do our best to return to the Islamic teachings so I, personally will pray to Allah so He will keep me from having such condition (having a pregnant daughter a son impregnating a girl out of wedlock).
For those Muslims who have unfortunately had, they can always refer to Surah Az-Zumar verse 53. In the absence of a truthful ruling caliph, which has created a lot of confusions in the Islamic world, Muslims are advised to have a fatwa from his heart as long as his/her intention is to seek for Allah’s Blessings and Forgiveness and keep pursuing a better life after repentance. I can present you more samples of Islamic teachings in different circumstances, but I suggest that you read them for your self so you have much fairer judgments.
@ winoceros
Winoceros: “You have conveniently changed the subject. First, I will address your incorrect assumptions.”
Have I?
Winoceros: “If, by "free relationship" you mean promiscuity, you can rest assured that no one is happy about a promiscuous child, nor happy when one becomes pregnant or gets someone pregnant out of wedlock. If you think "Westerners" have no opinion about those activities, then you know nothing about the West."
Promiscuity.. indeed the word I was looking for.
I didn't say Westerners had no opinions about those activities, but I clearly see that when promiscuity is becoming more and more familiar within a society, it inevitably becomes harder to keep children from practicing it. American movies (and also others from different nations) are now all over the world for everybody to see that promiscuity has been widely (though probably not by bad intention, but merely as a culture) promoted. You know the effects of audio visual on children don’t you? that even advertising a product is considered much less effective when TV commercials are not used.
I know most parents don't like their children to be promiscuous, but what do you expect as parents to do if you too have gone through such phase in your younger years and still show little objection to it?
Winoceros: “It is outright ludicrous to try to posit that women don't say "yes" when they are proposed to. If they say nothing, how does the man know to proceed with plans? Isn't he just waiting for her to say yes or no?”
Again please read carefully, in Islamic society, that silence refers to a girl’s consent, not that of women, especially when those women are the divorced. Divorced women find it easier to deal with this marital proposal and usually express their consents by words. And also notice how Rasulullah did advise male Muslims, up on the consent from the girl he has proposed, to go visit (in Islamic way) her bride to-be for further acquaintance. When everything goes as expected, what comes next is the wedding…. but when one party decides to cancel the marriage during the introduction process, then no one has the right to force the marriage and the refused party has to be big-heartened to accept such cancellation, and pray for Allah’s help to find a better spouse.
You have conveniently changed the subject. First, I will address your incorrect assumptions.
You have not defined what you term "free relationship."
If, by "free relationship" you mean promiscuity, you can rest assured that no one is happy about a promiscuous child, nor happy when one becomes pregnant or gets someone pregnant out of wedlock. If you think "Westerners" have no opinion about those activities, then you know nothing about the West.
If, though, by "free relationship" you mean the ability of one to select one's own spouse and marry at will, then I hardly see why it would be a Western "problem" at all. It should be the default position, and your backward, misogynistic, "well, she's so shy and quiet" excuse doesn't fly. The more likely scenario is that if she says anything against her father and mother's wishes she knows she'll end up punished or locked in some room for the rest of her life until she assents, so she says nothing. If this is where you tell me Muslim girls can't be pushed around that way, then they're not too shy to say yes or no, are they?
It is outright ludicrous to try to posit that women don't say "yes" when they are proposed to. If they say nothing, how does the man know to proceed with plans? Isn't he just waiting for her to say yes or no?
Asinine.
As to refusing, you have not yet explained what you would do if your unmarried 15-year-old daughter or 18-year-old daughter who lived with you or didn't live with you, became pregnant.
@ winoceros
Your reply demonstrates how you always see things they way you are used to. You are so very familiar with the way teenagers (I'm sure you were also teenagers a couple years back) behave in a community that encourages free relationship but never want to give a little sympathy for those growing up in a far different culture. I have been in both so I can explain a little.
In your society, as I noticed too myself, of course you wouldn't find this type of girl. Teenagers in the states (now in most parts of the world) are used to seeing older people practicing free relationship. There you would not find a girl so shy she remains quiet when proposed by someone she agrees to marry. But that doesn't also mean that she has no right to refuse.
Refusing doesn't make a girl feel ashamed, so in the case she disagrees to the marriage she may speak and clearly say no.
Accepting a man she agrees to marry, on the contrary sort of makes her shy, so a girl's remaining silence usually is her way to express her consent. 😉
Is it clear, Sir?
Well, then I guess we're back to you telling me what you would do if your daughter got knocked up, since you are using this ridiculous notion of "silence equals consent" as a standard for making someone get married.
What would you do?
nice forum
@ winoceros
"We do not subscribe to you cretinous, Islamic, worse-than-Neanderthal ideology of forcing people to marry against their will."
Where did you learn that?
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.101 Narrated by Aisha
Allah's Messenger (sws) said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for her marriage).’ I (Aisha) said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet (saws) said, "Her silence means her consent."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.98 Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet (saws) said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron (divorcee, widow, etc.) should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Messenger (saws)! How will she (the virgin) express her consent?" He (saws) said, "By keeping silent."
Not permitting Muslim's girls and boys to have free relation like what most today's teenagers are practicing doesn't mean that a Muslim father can force his daughter to marry a man of his choice. 😉
Wow. I didn't think it was possible to have a Muslim, on the premise of defending his religion, actually lay out an honest agenda of totalitarianism. Thank you. How refreshing.
No, (and it is hard to describe how ignorant your question is), it is not about free sex, though it is none of your business what anybody does in their relationships generally.
The "removal of liberty", since this does not even occur to you, has to do with the forcible marriage of one party to another by parents or anyone else. This is not making them cut the lawn for the rest of the summer.
I know you have no frame of reference for this, but marriage in a free culture, not like Islam, requires that each party desire to be married, and that they become married of their own volition. If they do not marry, there is no punitive measure from the state, nor is the imposition of physical punishment allowed from any party, let alone one's parents.
You are welcome to grieve and wail all you want over your knocked-up daughter in this scenario; you would have my total sympathy. But the remedy you propose is absolutely, 100% antithetical to anything resembling respect for an individual. What you describe, simply, are the Taliban: religious oppressors, physically striking out to make people behave the way they want them to behave, who want the power of the state to dictate what individuals do with their hair, legs, cleavage, marriages, music, ad nauseum.
Nobody said…do you see that…nobody said it was "good" to have "free sex." In our country we petition legislatively to put incentives in place to marry. In our churches and synagogues we try to teach right from wrong and develop examples of good living and good outcomes to teach young people.
We do not subscribe to you cretinous, Islamic, worse-than-Neanderthal ideology of forcing people to marry against their wills. It might be a heavy, heavy religious desire for a parent that his knocked-up daughter get marry, and he or she might beg the girl to think of her future. But she gets to choose, not you, and damn, I mean damn your repugnant Islam and your repugnant founder.
Fascist.
@ winoceros
"But you propose allowing law to be based around this emotion, rather than taking one moment to consider that what you suggest is the removal of liberty from the two individuals involved."
The removal of liberty? Do refer mostly to free sex?
If sex was initially encouraged to be free from the beginning of human history, then why marriage exists?
And why there are so many Americans now starting to get tired of the way they have lived and why we all are witnessing that Islam is growing faster there as best alternative to live one's life? 😉
Do you now retract your claim that Iraqis should have simply "risen up" and thrown off their chains, having watched the videos I linked? They're full of descriptions of executions and torture and death and rape…
Muslims were nearly always the aggressors in every conflict. Would you like some writing from Muslim conquerors from back in the day, stating that they attacked first?
Do you deny that the Qur'an instructs Muslims not to be friends with believers?
Really? Is that why sooooo many Muslims seem to so terribly misunderstand the inherent peacefulness of their claimed religion? How many Muslims actually speak Arabic as a native tongue and have little trouble with classical Arabic? 2%? 5% I am sure that's being generous, as many are illiterate to begin with.
Yet they claim to know and defend Islam? How is that? How do they come to their understanding of Islam enough to correct the rest of us about it when they are using translations just as we are?
And I believe when you say "they" are to pass the TOEFL, you mean "I". God forbid any of us ends up with you as a TA. It's a ridiculous analogy. A student coming to the US wanting to study biology but not knowing English would easily be able to discuss Darwin's theories because his works have been translated. The only problems might be cultural reference points or time period problems that anyone who didn't live in Victorian England might need help understanding.
Your claim regarding non-classic Arabic speakers is utter nonsense. Most Muslims do not even speak Arabic.
@ winoceros
Does it?
The international students who pursue higher education in the US are to pass the TOEFL test to make sure that they really grasp the language their areas of interests are taught in. If they didn't, how would they understand? 😉
You don't seem to notice the analogy..
You're not being very bright here.
It hardly matters what I think of the translations, whether they are good or true or whatever. It matters what Muslims themselves think the verses mean. And when El Azhar and all four schools of Islamic Sunni jurisprudence uphold the most disgusting and heinous sharia, verses, etc. as legitimate, then how can any Muslim expect his "own private Islam" is to be held up as worthy?
Your example is so screwy it's funny. Whether an international student understands the book or document is irrelevant as to its content. Its content exists independent of some foreign student's understanding of it or not. Can you not address the content?
Islam is worth despising whether Aisha was a saint or not. I could care one whit what Aisha thought about anything. No one is living their lives based on Aisha's perfect example, they are doing it based on Mohammad's perfect example. The sharia is not based on Aisha, but Mohammad. Punishment is meted based not on Aisha's whims, but Mohammad's. I'm sure there are all kinds of lovely people who had to be Muslims for one reason or another. That is scarcely the point.
The point is that Muslims uphold Mohammad's act as worthy of emulation, so much so that they wrote it down, multiple times, to show how great their prophet was. We, as free people, do not think it was great, and condemn any law that would mimic its inhumanity, such as in Iran, or Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, etc.
Not being able to condemn child marriage is a character flaw.
@ winoceros
I know the story of Aisha satisfies your hatred towards Islam, but if you are more objective in your search for Islamic teachings, please read how Aisha lived her life and how she thought about this worldly, temporary life. 😉
Only when she reported that your prophet struck her on her chest and caused her pain, and when she complained that Mohammad's "revelations" seemed to come at the most opportune times, and when she noticed that the Muslim women seemed to have the most colorful bruises.
No, by "savaging" I mean having to endure penetration by a 54-year old man when she was a child. That is a savaging.
@ winoceros
"Don't need to know Arabic to read translations of quranic verses, do I? And neither do most other Muslims of the world, who do not speak classical Arabic (neither do you, I warrant, no one does)."
What's wrong with your logic?
Some international students when they go to school in the US don't need to learn English?
Then why is it required for them to pass the TOEFL test to be admitted at a college there? Please tell me.. 😉
<<He was a dictator but that was supposed to be Iraqi's homework, not the American's. >>
Watch this video and then tell me how the Iraqis were supposed to rise up and throw off the chains of Saddam and his home base of evil:
1979 coup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR1X3zV6X5Y
Events in Iraq http://fora.tv/2009/07/09/Axis_of_Evil_Christophe…
And you cannot, simply cannot believe that Muslims have always "reacted" to attacks. I cannot understand why a Muslim would allow himself to look so patently stupid when the proof of Islamic aggression, documented contemporaneously, is so myriad. I'll just let that hang out there so we can see how seriously we should take any of your "facts."
And, because you have no basis for understanding why, I will explain: we cry for soldiers because they are valued as individuals, and their lives mean something to us. I hope that makes sense to you someday.
@ winoceros
"….the savaging of Aisha by Mohammad"
What do you actually mean by 'savaging'?
If what you mean with the term is what I think it means, then:
Did Aisha tell you personally that she was savaged by Rasulullah?
All of her narrations confirmed that she had a good marriage with him. 😉 Any implication that she was unhappy???
No, sweetheart. War is hell. People get killed so that war will stop. That's why war is bad, right?
Aggression must be put down. No one feels "good" about the death of Japanese civilians. It was a tragedy that they died so that their nation would stop warring.
How on earth does criticism of just war theory have anything to do with Muslims so terribly "misunderstanding" their "peaceful" religion and being utterly unable to teach it the "right" way? Pathetic.
@ winoceros
"It was certainly humane to those whose death was certain if the Japanese empire was not stopped."
And of course it was certainly 'more' humane for those massively killed, was it? They were better off put to death so they wouldn't be held responsible for what their emperor was doing. 😉
is that your point?
@ enlightened25
"Also why it wrong for America to kill civilians (you claim they did) but it is okay for Saddam to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and kurds plus over a million Iranians? Double standard or what?"
Who said I agreed to what Saddam was doing? He was a dictator but that was supposed to be Iraqi's homework, not the American's.
And… when you people are crying for the deaths of the US army (provided that deaths have always been soldiers' risks of being involved in a war), that sounds really funny…. 😉
"And what was the muslims buisness in Iraq, in syria, in palestine, in Persia and Egypt and many other places? How did Islam first get there was it by sword? By raiding looting killing and enslaving the population?"
Please read carefully that in the long history of Islam, Muslims have always reacted to attacks, not vice versa. 😉
Of course, since your facile question and interest seems to overwhelm any other faculty you might have. But again, what does a good or bad contact with a Muslim have to do with the texts that describe gleefully the savaging of Aisha by Mohammad?
It was certainly humane to those whose death was certain if the Japanese empire was not stopped. Japan's wanton aggressiveness is responsible for her people's death, not the defense of her victim.
If America wanted to "wipe out" civilians, they would have dropped bombs on every city. But Japan surrendered, and the war stopped, and the U.S. helped rebuild Japan. Clearly the goal was to stop their aggression, which they did, and no further destruction of Japan and her people was done.
Don't need to know Arabic to read translations of quranic verses, do I? And neither do most other Muslims of the world, who do not speak classical Arabic (neither do you, I warrant, no one does).
We are all left with the best translations we can find. This is a typical ploy of apologists such as yourself (Oh, you don't know Arabic or that kind of thing).
Would you like verse numbers? I am telling you that it says you can be friendly and neighborly within the course of displaying good manners, and if it advances Islam to do so, or if there is something to be gained.
But true friendship is reserved for believers, and continued trust and friendship with non-Muslims is highly discouraged. Where would Muslims get that idea? Bad translations?
Anyone who has sanctions imposed on them for bad behavior. Iran, Iraq, etc. Then we're the bad guys when it is Muslim societies who don't know to organize themselves in a just manner or respect people's innate freedoms. Then when their own behaviors cause suffering to innocents, it's somehow our fault.
One, way to ignore every other salient point in the post.
Two, it's getting better. But crime is not religious domination and conquest. Another red herring.
@ winoceros
Have you? interacted directly with Muslims? 😉
@ winoceros
"And we have much business in the middle east. Every time we try to pull back that business though (sanctions) everyone cries and beats their chest…oh we're suffering! Which is it?
Who is 'everyone' here? 😉
@ winoceros
"Islam does not allow for friendship with the infidel, so of course we are enemies to them."
Please learn a little Arabic before you brought this up or ask an Islamic Scholar what wali means. 😉
@ winoceros
We have an obligation to allow others to live peacefully and free of predators such as Muslim hordes, among others."
Ha ha ha.
Look deeper into the crime data in America. Is it getting better or worse?
"Do you justify this as humane?" You are engaging in Red Herring fallacy assuming america is the biggest villain in the world what that has to do with Islam or the evil of the muslims?
Also why it wrong for America to kill civilians (you claim they did) but it is okay for Saddam to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and kurds plus over a million Iranians? Double standard or what?
"and the Americans, who were not supposed to have business at all there" And what was the muslims buisness in Iraq, in syria, in palestine, in Persia and Egypt and many other places? How did Islam first get there was it by sword? By raiding looting killing and enslaving the population?
<div id="idc-comment-msg-div-279921337" class="idc-message"><a class="idc-close" title="Click to Close Message" href="javascript: IDC.ui.close_message(279921337)"><span>Close Message</span> Comment posted. <p class="idc-nomargin"><a class="idc-share-facebook" target="_new" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Falisina.org%2Faisha-the-child-bride-of-muhammad%2F%23IDComment279891466#IDComment279921337&t=I%20just%20commented%20on%20Aisha%3A%20The%20Child%20Bride%20of%20Muhammad%20%7C%20Alisina.org" style="text-decoration: none;"><span class="idc-share-inner"><span>Share on Facebook</span></span> or <a href="javascript: IDC.ui.close_message(279921337)">Close Message America's (political) wars…red herring. Not religiously motivated. And, I'm sorry, Japan? You do know they attacked us, don't you?
And because they (iraqis) follow Islam, they will undoubtedly find enemies to their way of life whatever era or region they inhabit. Islam is oppressive, regressive, stunted, authoritarian, and violently dominating and aggressive. It is no wonder you consider them "victims," since you are unable to see what a scourge their organized presence is to any community that has the misfortune to host them. I say "organized," because individually and with individual worship, local mosque attendance, etc. having Muslims around is no societal or political problem. But when they enforce sharia in their own families and neighborhoods in contravention to local law, it is a crime. Then they are criminals and scofflaws. The only reason Iraqis would consider Americans enemies is because they allow their Islam to dominate their humanity. Islam does not allow for friendship with the infidel, so of course we are enemies to them. The reason America is the "world police" is that we keep the place safe for weaker parties to function. If Islam rules the world, or communism, or pirates, etc. etc. then no on else can safely trade or travel.
We have an obligation to allow others to live peacefully and free of predators such as Muslim hordes, among others. Those who find themselves on the wrong side of the conflict, such as Iraqi civilians, like the Japanese, had better figure out quick what they like better: Islam or liberty. No good is happening out of Islamic societies wherever they are. Allying with those who want them to explore the idea of self rather than the collective is in their best interest, if they don't get killed by their "good" Iraqi neighbors for collaboration first. The communist Soviets didn't know what to do with their freedom either, and shudder to think what will happen to the North Koreans when they finally are rid of that monstrous regime.
And we have much business in the middle east. Every time we try to pull back that business though (sanctions) everyone cries and beats their chest…oh we're suffering! Which is it?
@ winoceros
"Further, this is not my problem to ponder, it is yours: if this is the instruction Islam gives regarding minors being used to wage jihad, then why do so many Muslim misunderstand Islam so very seriously?
What are you going to do about the religious education these idiots are receiving, such that they think nothing of using Afghan and Iraqi children, women, and the mentally deficient to blow up innocents and themselves?"
Of course it is mine and other Muslims' problem to ponder. But as you have come in here and responded to my comments, please also give it another thought why America had to get involved in the two countries in the first place and why it sort of became her habit to involve in wars with different countries i.e the Japan and Vietnam. When her army attacked the cities of Iraq, had they considered who could get killed by the long-range misiles? What would you think about her bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How many INNOCENTS do you think inhabited the two cities? How many women and children were swept out in just a single drop of that highly explosive bomb? Do you justify this as humane?
John K has said that far more lives were saved by this biggest mass killing in human history but I would say: was it?
Me being caught?
I didn't say I supported the practice of suicide bombing as there are some ulamas who have classified that as haraam, but there are things that Allah Himself will judge on in an extreme condition such as in Iraq as its ordinary people are facing two enemies: their corrupt leader(s) and the Americans, who were not supposed to have business at all there but playing self-appointed world police. 😉
Just want to finish this off, so tell me, if the "scholars" decided Aisha was sixteen and not six, or that it could not be empirically determined, would you then decry every scenario of Muslims marrying children, and insist that laws be obeyed regarding forcing minors to be wed/raped, with jail time for offenders?
And likewise, if the "scholars" agree that she was six, would you support or condemn laws or lack of prosecutions in Muslim-dominated areas that allowed children to be abused in this way?
<<@ winoceros
"Well, yes! Are you not getting the concept of free will? No one is obligated to marry anyone else."
Well. do you father a girl? If yes, would you be happy if one boy were sleeping with her and walked away when she got pregnant? >>
Your response is one that is generated by your emotional disgust with the situation, which is fine. One is allowed to have those opinions any time.
But you propose allowing law to be based around this emotion, rather than taking one moment to consider that what you suggest is the removal of liberty from the two individuals involved. It is one thing to rail on your daughter or shake your finger at your son and insist that they get married. It is another thing to ask the law to make them do anything at all. You are clearly incapable of seeing the difference.
By extension, you infer that like art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that the "holy" texts of Islam can be interpreted or acted out any way it suits the Muslim himself.
The interpretation of texts should have to do with what they actually say, should they not? Should not the deplorable things offered up in the texts be soundly disavowed by any and all Muslims? What on earth would it matter where I live?
Do not conflate, as apologists such as yourself always do, the practitioner with the theology. We are discussing the "theology," as if the myriad discussions of sex acts and scenarios had any place being in a "holy" book in the first place.
"As if speaking truth would be changed somehow, depending on the location of the speaker."
Of course it would. Have you interacted directly with Muslims? or you have only gained all information through the media usually owned by your kind? 😉
Further, this is not my problem to ponder, it is yours: if this is the instruction Islam gives regarding minors being used to wage jihad, then why do so many Muslim misunderstand Islam so very seriously?
What are you going to do about the religious education these idiots are receiving, such that they think nothing of using Afghan and Iraqi children, women, and the mentally deficient to blow up innocents and themselves?
See, here's where you've been caught. You said earlier that at least the child was killed in the cause of Allah, or something like that. Which is it? Permissible or impermissible? Or both, as the need to discuss it with mushrikin arises?
Read how the only reason he said children of non-Muslims shouldn't be killed is because until they reach the age of reason, they're Muslim anyway, and only their parents make them Jewish or Christian.
He also allowed a night attack of the pagans and told his worried companions not to fret about the possibility of killing women and children during the attack, stating "they are of them."
Or is Bukhari not good enough for you?
As if speaking truth would be changed somehow, depending on the location of the speaker.
@ winoceros
"Your sensibilities are emotion, not law."
Please explain.
@ winoceros
Before confirming "Islam holds no promise for the protection of minors, and you find nothing wrong with that."…… please read the story of Umar bin Abdul Aziz particularly on how he reacted to Christian priests seeking for his justice. 😉
A child blown up…. hmm …please also read how Rasulullah did not give permission to those under fourteen to engage in wars. 😉
@ winoceros
Where are you from?
6,7 11, or 12.. It was recorded as a child and he, a flaccid, ED afflicted, middle-aged pervert trying to satisfy his defective lusts on a female that wouldn't know any better. To admonish a man like this is to discredit yourself.
Would I be happy with what?
Happy? no.
Kill her? no.
Force another human being to marry someone? no.
The boy (or man, as is often the case in your society) is legally responsible for his share of the support of the child. I already explained that to you. Archaic marriage and honor hand-wringing doesn't have a place in a modern society. Your sensibilities are emotion, not law.
Yes. It is necessary for you to understand that your attitude toward minors is unacceptable. Islam holds no promise for the protection of minors, and you find nothing wrong with that.
In fact, if a child is blow up in a martyrdom bombing, you claim that there is honor in that death because at least the child died for the advancement of Islam.
I'm afraid I have nothing in common with that kind of thinking.
The face that you don't find it deplorable is not at all surprising, given your devotion to Islam.
@ winoceros
I can also express that I feel sorry for you and your kind too for not experiencing the beauty of living in Allah's guidance and to wait for the eternal salaam He has promised. But is it necessary to say that? Please remember that we are only conversing..
Where are you from?
Nota bene the lack of supported refutation to any of my other conclusions.
Earlier, you said "Who has asked disbelievers to marry young? It's among muslims. Disbelievers don't have to do likewise. Were you ever invited by Islamic laws to marry young that you are so scared of this happening to you? Just ignore it ." This gets at the heart of your real argument, where non-Muslims should have nothing to say about the human rights violations, not to mention the violation of natural law, perpetrated ad nauseum by Muslims worldwide. From child rape, with no legal consequence other than a few sheep changing hands, to child marriage, to forced marriage, to FGM, to bachu bazi boys, to slavery, to sexual slavery, your true argument is that it's none of anyone else's business, and why should they care at all?
This, Mr. Ihsan, is the difference between a Muslim brain, and a human brain. It cannot be explained, because you simply cannot experience the idea of equanimity among people. I am sorry for you and your kind.
@ Would you be happy with that? 😉
@ winoceros
"Well, yes! Are you not getting the concept of free will? No one is obligated to marry anyone else."
Well. do you father a girl? If yes, would you be happy if one boy were sleeping with her and walked away when she got pregnant?
I do not know why you say "ha ha."
How is this funny? It's funny to you to see the abject misery imposed on children by Muslims? Rape? Torture? Servitude? This amuses you?
First, your referring to the shari'a, ijaab kabuul, inspires no confidence in a Muslim nor a non-Muslim, nor the child, for that fact. You are telling me that a solution to the problem is a shotgun wedding. Would the girl's own parents not take care of the pregnant girl and the infant's needs? Why not?
Would the girl not simply apply for child support through the court from the male who impregnated her? No court in the West wouldn't give it to her. So what need does any child have of this repugnant law that gives all the power and control over the girl's life to the father of her rapist, or at best, her boyfriend's father?
You are twisted if you think this is ok. It is not ok. She has no obligation to marry anyone she doesn't want to, and there are civil remedies for the support of a baby. What on earth does shari'a solve, other than to enslave a girl? Why, exactly, do you think she is obligated to marry anyone?
@ winoceros
"If you do not concede this, you are saying children of Muslim parents deserve far less protection and deserve exploitation than children of non-Muslims."
Ha ha…
Please refer to the 'ijaab kabuul' process in my other reply to you. 😉
@ winoceros
…………… or make the boy marry her by force?
You see, in Islam the process of marriage includes what is called 'ijaab kabuul' in which it is the girl's father himself who weds the marrying couples and the boy in the presence of at least two witnesses agrees to the wedding and take the responsibility from the father to take care of her starting from that moment. 😉
If you want to know more, please read the rest of Islamic marriage laws your self. 😉
You have officially conceded that Muslim biography of Aisha's own comments is unreliable.
You have officially conceded that no case of a 12-year-old Massachusetts resident (excluding Muslims kidnapped and taken to Muslim countries by ruse to being married forcibly) being married can be found by you to provide a comparable scenario.
By using the Massachusetts statute, and pointing out its problems for American judgment, you, by extension, question Mohammad's judgment and all Muslim lawmakers who do not enforce minimum age laws. If it's wrong for Americans, it must be wrong for Muslims, too. If you do not concede this, you are saying children of Muslim parents deserve far less protection and deserve exploitation than children of non-Muslims. Moreover, non-Muslims should cease to be concerned with the bodily and emotional welfare of all children, and only care about non-Muslim children.
I believe I have characterized your logic accurately. I just wanted to be sure it is clear to you what you actually are arguing.
Well, yes! Are you not getting the concept of free will? No one is obligated to marry anyone else. You must have rocks in your head if you think this is a rebuttal to her point about rarity.
Again, you have not come up with a single instance of a 12-year old being married in Massachusetts in the last umpteen years. Please show this is a problem before you use it as a rapier against the millions of Muslim forced child brides.
Please read what Muslims actually do in practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3tGkdNScEM
"Muslim 'Family Honor' – Selling daughters into sex slavery"
Is the message of this single character Mohammad so weak, so unappealing, so unconvincing, that a nation of nearly 100% Muslims cannot find a way to obey this "suggestion" of what to do if someone proposes marriage with their daughter?
Here, an entire nation of Muslims have no issue whatsoever with forced sex on their daughters. Not to mention the boys, but that's another video.
@ winoceros
No, her point was not clear. She said: " Usually, such early marriages are because the girl got pregnant."
She conveniently picked a condition wherein the boy agrees to marry his pregnant girl friend so the marriage can be okeyed by the district judge after permitted by her parent's.
But what if the boy refused? Let her parents laugh in tears? 😉
@ winoceros
haha ha.
Please read what Rasullullah said about what parents should do when their daughter is proposed.
@ winoceros
ha ha.
Please try again. 😉
He is such an unthinking robot!
Asked and answered.
You will find very few cases of this happening at all, and no support for it happening, even when it does. That's because Westerners are repulsed by children being forced to have sex.
Muslims are not, apparently.
No, her point is that your argument is invalid. Do you have another one?
And sorry, what is sex, if not free? You would take the freedom out of sexual choice by refusing to fight underage marriage laws. You look like a pervert defending this Mohammad character for screwing a nine-year-old victim.
So, you want to set aside the proud recollection of Muslim biographers, narrating Aisha's comments. Then, you want to create a tu quoque argument based on Massachusetts having a statute regarding 12-year-old's marriage.
Then, when it is suggested that it doesn't actually occur, you switch the argument's premise, again, and say, well, that doesn't matter, because why buy the cow when the milk is free?
Now, in which of those outrageous teen sex flings are you claiming that the girls are coereced, and when they report it, their attackers are not charged with a crime?
But let's just move back to the original premise that most Westerners find abhorrent, and see if you have anything to say about that: the continued excusing of child brides and unenforced or absent minimum-age laws by Muslims is unacceptable, and infringes on a child's right to not be a slave or be raped. You cannot use case law from the US that no one takes advantage of as some kind of mitigating factor for the reprehensible support Muslims give this child rapist, and those who unflinchingly emulate him.
@ Gaia
So your point is it's better to encourage teenagers to have sex before getting married? You know that teenagers in the US (and in most parts of the world) are now practicing free sex in their early teens don't you?
@ winoceros
ha. ha
of course these days no teenagers are married in the states. Do they need to be married that young when free sex is now widely encouraged?
Please make a stronger point. 😉
F@#$%^….how can u justify all dis…
In Massachusetts, a 15 old young woman can get married ONLY is she has a permission of her parents and a district judge who determines if she is mature enough for marriage. Usually, such early marriages are because the girl got pregnant.
New Hampshire's limit is that the girl has to be at least 13, and then the judge has to determine if she is suitable candidate for marriage. Check Wikipedia under Marriageable Age to find what the laws are in each state in USA.
Most countries of the world limit the age of allowable marriage to 18 and even 21 years of age. For anybody younger, one has to have a permission of parents AND a judge to determine if she is mature enough for marriage.
There is a HUGE difference between 9y of age and 15. By 15, a girl is sexually mature (even if not physically or mentally mature) and has her periods, and thus can get pregnant. The age of menarche had declined in last 100 years in the West, because of nutrition and pollution which stimulate sexual development. During Muhammad time, it is inconceivable that 9 years old girl like Aisha was sexually mature. He was a PEDOPHILE and a liar who changed his ";laws" to fit his nasty behaviors. Anybody who is trying to whitewash this despicable guy is insane.
at least Jesus wasn't a pedophile ..
u might want to take this an enlightenment
Is Aisha the child wife of Muhammad the pedophile your mother? Aisha did not have offspring as the records say. Then how did Aisha become your mother? Because Mohammad declared his wives were mothers of believers only to prevent his followers from marrying his wives after his death. But Muhammad could marry any woman or child or even his daughter-in law he wished to have sex with. To commit incest he would even declare adoption invalid. You brain dead moron accept all such balderdash of false prophet Muhammad the sex maniac and sadist womanizer. You are a typical Muslim dung head.
For a little historical context, in most US States the age of consent was 10-12 until the late 1880s. In Delaware it was seven (7) until at least 1895.
Here's some arguments
Islam hates music and art:
Bukhari 7.494.2:
Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al−Ash`ari: that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."
3.318:
Narrated Aisha: (mother of the faithful believers) I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah's Apostle saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I repent to Allah and His Apostle. (Please let me know) what sin I have done." Allah's Apostle said, "What about this cushion?" I replied, "I bought it for you to sit and recline on." Allah's Apostle said, "The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, 'Put life in what you have created (i.e. painted).' " The Prophet added, "The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures."
8.130:
Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, "Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection."
Ever occur to you as why Allah gives human the ability to paint in the first place? Islam is complete BS when comes to logic. Apparently, Muhammad was wealthy enough (got it from booty of war) to give all his wives money to spend on these luxury goods and yet, there are still ignorant muslims who think that he was poor.
So, you can't even debunk that?
Read my post again about Q 65:4, history and no condemnation of child marriage (pretending that's not mentioned). This has nothing to do with Hisham so save your hatred from him. Quote the full verses here and we'll see that.
Give it some time they would digest it. There are conflicts within Muslims about it., Let them get along with it first then we could get them out of darkness. Thanks
okay! once again only for you….
Aisha was the wife and also a companion. There were other companions as well like Jesus had. They never mention about her age nor there is any other text on it.
Hisham was on of them who is dais to mention that in his speech. This speech was coppied by Ibn Hisham, his son at the time of 71 age in IRaq, Nothing before this is known. Aisha didn;t write in Bukhari or any other book. It was said to have been told by her. The first person ever to witness this statment of Aisha is Hisham. No one else hard or narrated. Later all the Hadeeth like Bukhari, Muslim etc copied it from Ibn Hisham. SO the oldest text os Hisham's. He misquoted it to be 6 instead of 16. When he first mentioned about her age ever in his work or speech was when he was 71 years old and in Iraq. Most of the Iraqi narrations are discarded by Islamic Scholars and also told to do so by the companions because it was known then that Iraqis falsify and fabricate things.
Talaq 65:1-7 – Doen't not speak about what age you could marry or divorce. It talks about the barren women who cannot give birth to child. How you could divorce them not indicating that one could marry at 6 or 7. Its what few scholars thought it to be just to satisfy their own need. Talaq mean Divorce. The chapter talks about on how to divorce a barren girl. Please read in the orignial text driectly from Qoran and then translate it yourself. Thanks mate.
Ibn Hisham was a scholar who noted it from his father named Hisham
Have you read my link about that? Muslims already know that child marriage is perfectly ok under Islamic law and those accusations regarding Hisham is hardly convincing.
No, Isaac. I am just stating fact that Islam is false and its rule is unfit to this modern era. By saying what hadith "actually" says won't make them out of it, rather makes their faith stronger and we all already know what the Quran teaches about society.
It will sooner or later. Just imagine the Impact on the muslim world when they hear that Bukhari could be false and things could be fabricated. Once that belief is in they would open their eyes. We are not cursing them or their Prophet rather in other word defended him.
Imagine the expression on a Muslim brother's face when he comes out of the belief that Aisha was 16+ not 6. They would immediately doubt all their belief and text. They would star to scrutinize each and every verse. That's the beginning of a NEW WORLD. NO more religion no God to rely upon. Each by their own hands. Development would be in boom.
But if you keep contributing to their belief by mocking at em. They would be staunch ones. You cannot take the terrorist out of a Muslim if you keep saying Qoran encourages terrorism. But if you can prove that Qoran doesn't says so he would be a peaceful man. Only then we could invite them to facts and truth. They would be convinced about the Nothingness of God one day. Atleast if they continue believing in Him they wouldn't be a harm to anyone. Lets join to do this and let people like Sina rip money. It has worked in several schools so far visited by me. They have stoped the morning prayers in schools now which is a good sign. Every single day if students pray collectively (Anglo or Arabic or French) they are bound to strengthen their faiths in theri GODs. We must stop that. Every school may have an oath instead. Prayers are harmful when in school. That gives him reason to believe in God since childhood. We don't need reasons do we?
Let's save this irrelevant rambling and go straight to the point. Accusing me for not knowing Arabic is the same with accusing scholars who had interpreted it into other language including the tafsir, let alone the actual practice in real world. Which one is wrong? I said, it is about children but you said, it is about barren. This is ridiculous since that verse covers all females including the fertile one.
Muslims can discard the hadith but they are only minority, nevertheless the pedophilia is still ok in Quran. I am telling the truth not cursing it.
which other proposal?? can you prove it. Listen I think you should either stay out of this "INTELLECTUAL" level discussion. Please brother learn to filter oil and water. You don;t even know arabic but yo depend on translations. You don't Syrian, Aremaic, Urdu, turkish, Irani, Iraqi etc many more. There are so many languages in Muslim worlds and so many texts…….Bukhari is translated in several languages so is Qoran. Now the Arabic in Qoran is so open ended that it cud lead you to several translations….The context about child marriage is not there in Qoran. Its talking aboot divorcing the barren women. Go read and research. No offense brother.
Next time when you are writing keep in mind that its for improving the material and discard dogmas (unproven). There are muslims who discard all hadeeths but Qoran. What would you do with them? How would you convince them?
Join me in making the world a better place to live in rather than cursing religions. I curse the belief in all the religion but I never accuse god or prophets rather get close to people and then ask them questions like is there a GOD?
You need to show them the WORLD a fantastic world of Science they would automatically revert to science and facts. Please think wise, Its not a crime!!!
Isaac, relying on people's memory and trust is not scientific. Science deals with testable and proven knowledge. If I say something about an incident which you can't clarify you can't call me as scientific. You can only trust me. You desperately use the same method as muslims and call it fact, that's delusional, the worse part, you fail to prove it or give the motive.
If you don't like it why bother wasting your time talking about Aisha? Don't complain on something you actually keep doing.
I don't think Islam is scientific so why the hell are you talking about all this???
We are we wasting time in this forum here?? Got no other job??
You gotta be kidding when you say Isnad is not scientific. What is science to you my Broda???
It has a scientific procedure to authenticate or discard hadeeth. All scientific things in the world isn't found in laboratories nor its technological. Any proven method or logical reasoning is also science.
Plz something other than Hisham???
Sigh, how can you use the same method as the muslims while proving the age of Aisha? You said that only fact can prove but you actually didn't bring any fact, only accusations that didn't even prove anything. Here's the problem, Aisha's age is recorded using Islamic method and by using the same method you can't even prove that Hisham is wrong, only doubt him. If we are talking about real fact we can easily say that even Muhammad was not real and his name was inserted later on when Quran was compiled. The problem is the practice and the rule of Islam which I've shown you.
Is this how your mind works and brain functions. You only think age matters to call someone SON. Every now and then you people are proving me right. Thank You so much for the reply in this context though not from the original one.I love him and he is like a son to me in the fields of Knowledge. How TOUGH is it to understand my Questions?????
FURNISH ME with any other reference Islamic or Non-Islamic other than HIsham's. Got it my SON!!!
Irrelevant again Isaac. I was not talking about Aisha's age on this one and Quranic sanction is very clear. You didn't confront it and surely you didn't understand my other post that we are playing with Islamic mindset and reality. Like it or not, pedophilia is ok under sharia law..
I do confront but you cannot proof me wrong either.
It would be impossible for you to make me believe in religious test coz I ain't a muslim. I need FACTS. The qoranic verses doesn;t speak abt it. The translations does The hadeeth about AISHA's age are FAKE reported by Ibn Hisham. So get me some other sources or hadeeth than Ibn Hisham's.. Now you need to furnish me the details. Please don;t mention anything from Bukhari again coz thats copied from Hisham's. I am confronting it directly cause I got nothing to loose here not even the so called FAith. Lol. I shall be waiting for your reply.
Materials… I know him personally.!!!! Lolz You know nothing yet. Yoiu people are such who are always lead.
Brother John K – one simple question?
Would Maligning or cursing one's religion get the world out of GOD Belief?
Keep beating around the bush…… You can never prove it.
BRING ME ANY OTHER HADEETH OR NON-ISLAMIC TEXT OR BELIEF about THE AGE OF AISHA. AS THE HADEETH BY IBN HISHAM further copied to BUKHARI is concerned
ITS NON AUTHENTIC AND NON _RELIABLE. I don't need to prove anything else but you do. I think you can earn more if u pay heed to my questions which NO ONE ESLE IN THE WORLD cud answer. YOU NO NOTHING ABOUT ANY RELIGION whatsoever.
AISHA AISHA AISHA …kep chanting her name won;t fetch you any slightest proof.
Even if someone wants to reform Islam there is always muslims who oppose it, just like in Aisha's age.
Even if someone wants to reform Islam there is always muslims who oppose it, just like in Aisha's age.
It's the same old failure to distinguish between lower textual criticism and higher criticism.
Q 65:4 and its tafsir, furthermore, no condemnation for child marriage (if that's not allowed). So there is no sin on child marriage (if that's not allowed) and every pedo can practice it under sharia law no matter how you twist that. Feel me?
See my other posts. Yours is just repetition and irrelevant. I've already told you that yours is not even called evidence. Islam and child marriage is inseparable, it has a deep root for more than 1400 years, that's a very strong evidence.
I was talking about other narration about Muhammad and little princess from Jaun and Quranic verse justifying child marriage. Your answer is irrelevant since you didn't confront it directly.
He thinks that isnad is scientific.
You missed the point, Isaac. What I'm getting at is the nature of women prior to Islam. They didn't have any problem meeting with men. Sure, their dress was like any other past civilization but that doesn't make them allergic to male. You used that to justify Aisha's act while she was hiding when Muhammad came. That's not true since many women (adult) were recorded as having positions and jobs such as business woman, poet, prophet, warrior etc. They also wanted to attract men with their beauty and property.
No Isaac, the problem is located in the Quran and hadith which has no direct confrontation with Quran will unlikely be erased. The problem is you can't even provide the concrete evidence on Aisha's age and Hisham's motive or mistake. You can only question him.
Denying that child marriage is part of Islam is dishonesty because it has been there for more than 1400 years. Countless children had been experiencing that since Muhammad set the example. Even 3 years old can be married according to Islamic history. If you wanted to reform Islam you'd better bring something solid and clear. You attempt to change a solid set of rule so you have to prove it with fact, not assumption.
That's the problem, you can't prove that Hisham is false because you can't bring counter publication. Remember, we are playing with Islamic mindset here, not real science. All of these chain of narrations is nothing more that old tradition because Arabs didn't write their own history.
Mo was a pedo since you failed to bring concrete proof (including his other proposal to other child) and of course Islam allows that in the Quran. Don't you ever read anything?
My son? How old do you think Dr. Sina is?
You've got to be kidding. Yes I know who Ali Sina is. Do your homework. There's plenty of material on his life on his sites.
Being devoted to a belief is an admirable quality, but doesn't count when evaluating the quality of the comments.
Seems like lately I have had to take some people to task for thinking they know something about me when they don't. Your assumption about Dr. Sina's "money game" also show that you are not acquainted with his thoughts either. You should familiarize yourself with material before commenting.
You have a point, but given the inertia of the idea and the Muslim world, I don't think the idea would take hold even if you had stronger evidence.
Right. So the question arises. Who lied? Hisham or Bukhari then. Or should muslims discard the entire hadith altogether? Did Aisha even exists? Was she a retard? Or just a midget?
Well, i bid you good luck in CONVINCING THE REST OF ISLAMIC WORLD to your theories with your booklet.
Now please check out al Talaq 65:1-7.
Bull. Not again.
MR understand all these REPORTS ARE FROM HISHAM UNTIL BUKHARI WROTE IT.
BRING ME SOMETHING OTHER THAN HISHAM PLEASE. FOR SOME GOD"S sake….
By the way even a girls of 13 or 4 could sit on mother's lap and swing and play with Doll. Go and see for yourself in countries like Arab league, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc. Your Geo-History is poor. work on it . No where in this narration it says she was 6 or 7 or 9 or 12 or 15 or 16. It is what you derive from it. If someone believes she was 6 years, they could get it from here and if someone like me believes she was 12+ then even it helps me derive the same.
SCIENCE please save me!!!!
Okay!! Try and understand
Burqa – dress covering a women like a ghost is not a part of Islam (scholars imposed it based of their understanding of Islam)
Islam says to lower once gaze and safeguard modesty. That is it.
Islam says to the women not to attract other men freely because of their ornamentation and perfume. Logic I agree. If a women is too attractively dressed men are bound to look in US, UK, Europe, France etc but if In Pakistan, India (rural), Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc she would be raped probably. So the women should dress according to the society they live until all the society are equal in status and rights etc. Please understand me.
You must have commonly heard that Islam bans Music. But its not proven. Its a debate material even amongst the many muslim Scholars as well. So we need to get the facts and not raise false topics like Pedophilia and Aisha's age. She was not 6 yrs.
There are lot of other means other than selling books. Let me know if you want to earn by creating the same. I can help.
Apart form this. The mulim law of CHILD abuse oops marriage is INCOREECT. We a group are already working on this to get this nailed in the Heads of Islamic Scholars. They first need to accept that the Child Marriage based on Hisham reports are baseless. He misquoted 16 to be 6 years. that is where the problem lies.
Brother, it was a practice in Islam not to CONTEST any Hadeeth or Sahaba or Caliphs or Scholars like Bukhari etc. I would need your help in letting it known that Even Hadeeth and Qoranic interpretations could be challenged.
Anything which falls out of place of Humanity can't be True Religious Law. There is NO PROOF OF CHILD MARRIAGE IN ISLAM. WE need to get it in the HEADS of Muslims once that is done this practice would abolish Permanently. Rather than proving it to be a part of Islam and cursing everyone. Hope you understand.
Exactly!!!
Now if you tell them that she was never married at 6 years that means Mo wasn't a pedo and Islam doesn't allows Pedophilia. So that means Child marriages in Muslim counties would be banned and abolished. This is a better way to eradicate it Cathee than ridicule them with reasons and texts and curses. They would never stop this practice as a whole.
IF ITS NOT THERE IN TEXTS THEN THEY WON"T HAVE ANY REASON TO CONTINUE THIS PRACTICE.
See!!! Now you are talking!!!! I like it!!!
Sina’s money game? How? Enlighten us.
Your materials are not that good Isaac. They are dead on arrival. Aside from being somewhat blasphemous in Islamic jurisprudence, simple logic took them out. So don’t flatter yourself
Incorrect!!!
They only came to one Muhaddes named Ibn Hisham, rest all copied form him. Imam Malik was his student but did not agree that Hisham's Iraqi narrations were ture. No one Esle heard it from AISHA. If you still have doubts my son then give me the wohle Isnad and chain of the hadeeths (atleast 3 from Bukhari).
Sanada!!! I Guess you were contesting Qoranic verses???
IF yes then my answer isn't irrelevant.
Oh yeah!!!
Do you even know who he is?
High-Quality post means Logical and Healthy FACTS or HIGH Definition TV quality.
None over hear can be better a quality than me!!! I am True to my ATHEISM. Are you?
@ John K – None decides their STATUS but works???
I have posted materials enough to prove Sina's money game!!! OPEN YOUR EYES BRODA!!!
Great!!! Now you probably are a victim of "Tautology".
@FAT BRAINS – Sina is nobody's god. In here we are talking about who has the evidence.
WHICH EVIDENCE – Ibn HIsham's ??? Known for Contradicting his own materials? Known to have suffered memory loss and misquotations??? Known for forged IRAQI narrations. Even his student the famous IMAM MALIK didn't copy his IRAQi narrations.
Stop fooling yourself and misguiding the world. Matter is whether GOD exist or not?
If you truly wanna heal the world get them out of this belief but not hurt or curse them.
Qoran doesn't talk about the child marriage so called. Its mis-interpretation. I can help you translate word by word in the right possible manner so you could yourself check it out. There is no need for us to beat around the bush. Its not there means its not there.
I ask you to furnish me with proof other than Bukhari Texts or any other text before Ibn Hisham. Please Give the details with their Names and chain of Narrators. Talk evidence then Bring Some!!! I am waiting@!!!
By proving errors and mistakes in someones belief is not the right way to invite someone to truth, this way we would only add up few more rebels. Which I am sure none of us here need. We need peace and development.
What Ali Sina is doing is a piece of shame and money game. He is abusing Islam which has so many followers in the world. Its not needed to let the muslims to burn their books, rather show them the Non-Existence of GOD. Let them come out of dark completely.
The more Mr Sina attacks Islam, the more he will be cursed. How many muslims would leave Islam hearing all this shit about their prophet? negligible rather Islam is becoming more popular and more people are accepting. The more you spread hatred for something the more it will be loved. I am afraid that one day 98%-99% of the world would become muslims because of people like ALI SINA.
I am more experienced in the fields of God Concept. I can tel you for sure that by cursing and attacking Islam or any other religion, you are somehow spreading the awareness of it in all corner. How famous was Islam in Uk and US few decades back?
Look my Goal is simple Show the right way to people with the help if science and logic. Show them the Non-Existence of GOD. OF we are able to make the people understand that GOD is manmade then there will be no religion – no jesus, no YWHH, No Allah, No MO, NO debate and argument. Now its upto you to either continue selling the falsehood and help no one and eradicate nothing but keep fighting Mo and his people and kill them all one day because they don;t deserve to live. Is this Humanity? They are not aware of things they lived in backwards classes. Thank your STAR MR Sanada_10 that you are on the other side and an proud atheist but please do not forget the others. Even they are human being born due to the same biological coincidence. You may Kill the criminal, but CRIME never. IF you want to kill crime then join hands with me and people like me who cares for everyone and doesn't fall in the ditch of falsehood and unhealthy debates until the motive would be to earn some extra and easy buck like Sina and rest. He is doing nothing but STRENGTHENING the belief of Muslims that he is the DAJJAL and Satan, why would the muslims pay heed to his words? You have to bring them out of these religious dogmas completely so that they could realize there is no Satan and NO Dajjal and No MO and Aisha and Anyother Myth (Religion). They have been told that such and such works and defaming would happen in future but hold yourself steadfast to the rope of Allah. Ignore the Satan and Dajjal and curse but silently the Disbelievers. Now when a muslim child grows up reading this you think he's gonna listen to Sina'a Gobs and love him and come to his path? Never even if the muslim guy turns against Islam he would never be with people like SIna but with people liek us – whose objective is Truth and Development. Several Muslims friend doubt that Sina is a Jew and working against Islam. They are some sort of convinced with the points raised but they would not believe because they think Sina is not fair. He would attack Islam but not Jews and Christian. Please understand my point brother. Sina need to think like a true Atheist. His work should be based on God and Science again not by criticism GOd of some or all religion but with facts and logic. By the way arguing or debating with me Sina would have no points to prove at all. I have already challenged Aisha's age being 6. See all the post and THINK like true Atheist not like a disguised one. No religion means no religion in totality. Here only ISLAM is cursed why not Jesus or Moses? Did they ever exist? Can anyone in the world furnish historical facts about Moses and Jesus? IF you speak against A religion you are not being true to yourself. I challenge them all!!! We don't need to evolve ISLAM or any other religion but we need to remove the cause stopping from evolution i;e GOD. Remove this and everyone is Evolved. We don't need another BIG Bang I guess. We can simply work with science and logic to get the people out of the Forged believe of GOD and Godliness. Once this is done I guess Humanity would be BORN in all corners of the world.
Where in Qoranis talks abput Child Marriage?
Please furnish a proof.
Gr8!!!
So what do you think about the Authenticity of Bukhari hadeeth mentioning Aisha's age?
I have supplied you the material and I guess you have checked them. Are you satisfied now?
You really don't get it. Muslims accept his pedophilia and think it's okay. There is no reason at all for you to defend against it whether it's accurate or not. It's what Muslims believe.
"IBN HISHAM" Read that book many of the scholars praised him, and said he was trustworthy and his hadiths were amoung the most authentic. While some of his hadiths were not direct the scholars only rejected them, but accepted the rest without hesitation, as it was obvious that they had no defects. Please read that book, as it is obvious the author of it is more knowledgeable about islam than you, with your copy and paste arugments. But muslims do not like to read anything that could harm their faith do they?
Don't hold your breath. He generally only answers high-quality posts.
“My mother came to me while I WAS BEING SWUNG ON A SWING between two branches and GOT ME DOWN. MY NURSE TOOK OVER and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. MY MOTHER MADE ME SIT ON HER LAP.”
(Tabari 9 pg. 131).
Highlights:
1. Somebody else was swinging her swing for Aisha.
2. Aisha was brought down from the swing by her mother.
3. Aisha had a nurse to took care of her.
4. Aisha was made to sit on her mother’s lap.
Except retards and midgets, are these highlighted items make sense for 16-19 year girls?
That's strange because before Islam women in Arabia had more liberty and even jobs making them "brave" enough to "mingle" with men. They also didn't wear hijab, recorded as "attention seeker" with jewelery and physical presence which Muhammad condemned. The Islamic regulation and "morality" came mostly after Muhammad migrated to Medina which means while in Mecca, people still used their old tradition.
Isaac, don't answer with nonsense like "Aisha couriered me". All you have to do is proving that Hisham was indeed beyond doubt fabricating that narration and of course some motive would be nice.
The hadith failed to authenticate? By what method? Isnad? Does that mean whoever produced "witness" more than 2 was automatically true and single person would be automatically wrong? We are talking about Islamic law here and it has been there for 1400 years regarding child marriage. It's the impact that matters.
Sina doesn't make money from Aisha's topic, you know. His book is free for muslims too.
Actually Aisha couriered me her CV for employment because even she is frustrated with these stupid debates. She wants a job in a call center now so that people around the globe could call her and ask her age directly. Even then I think Ali Sina would charge her of forgery cause this is his nature and method of making money. Got it!
By the way Hisham's crime reports are available from the same source from where Aisha's age is determined. Good point though. I think the best one so far ALI SINA need to learn a lot from you. Atleast we would never hate each other because of these soft and healthy jokes. Thats what I call an atheist.
Again the Hadeeth talking about her age has failed miserably to AUTHENTICATE and DEFEND itself.
Only person in the world IBN HIsham reports her to be 6years and the cause for this and several other websites and debates. THINK!!!
AISHA – Skeptical – ME- Why????
I even doubt her most authentic hadeeth man cmmon why wouldn't I doubt her. I doubt that is why I am able to hunt for truth. Aisha'a age was not 6 or 7 years by any means. If you produce IBN HISHAM's hadeeth then I have plenty too on his own authority contradicting himself.
Do you want to revert to Islam? Why does it bother you whether he was a Pedo or not? Do you Believe in GOD? IF yes then be happy with HIM if knwo then join me and follow the truth.
$50k don't allure me but Facts and Truth does.
I dn't have to doubt Allah's existence or Not doubt it. I am an atheist bro but a TRUE one, unlike ALI SINA whose sole aim is to rip money and attract hittings. Write something contorversial and people go crazy. I was reading it for so many days then finally my Instinct told me to reufte the falsehood. Science doesn't tell us to Believe in God but Science even don't tell us to tease and anger someone to that extent that he/she loses temper and kills the others.
What goes around comes around. If you spread hatred you would be a victim of hatred. Some muslim would blast or shoot you someday, then who would be responsible He or You. HE It is only in those situations the muslim would fall prey to his anger and the scholars who would teach him to go against you and kill you (jihaad etc). Then the whole world would shout Islam is terror. Why can't we remain a good citizen of the world and help explore technology and science. What if our dream of making time machine is possible someday would we still want to waste time in all this debate. We would anyways be able to go back time and fro and check whats authentic and whats not. Let us all give oursleves a good life without hatred and religion (ANY) Cmmon! How does it matter to you what a muslim does? Can't you just call him close and educate him about technology and science and moral ethics rather than cursing MO or Aisha or Allah.
By the way The SHIA group who are also muslim condemn her for lot of things does that means she was considered pious unanimously in the Muslim world?
THE HADEETH REGARDING HER AGE HAVE FAILED IN THE TEST OF AUTHENTICATION AND STRENGTH. Rest is up to you. You may
Irrelevant answer, Isaac. Read again what I was talking about.
Hisham fabricated that because he says so, sounds familiar?
You know nothing….+go Read Science of collecting Hadeeths. Bukhari wrote it form some one then that person from someone and the firts person to talk about her age is IBN HISHAM only…..
Bukhari, Muslim,Dawood, some Nasaii are all copied and locked form IBN HISHAM.
IF you want to check a hadeeth you need to check the "CHAIN OF NARRATORS". AISHA herself didnt write it nor ABU BAKR, nor MO – the Victimized character.
This is all you know about Hadeeth??? Read Isnad it will help you, if you further want to decieve your self with false figures.
And yet, he brings no concrete conclusion.
It was not Imam Bukhari but IBN HISHAM who first quoted this hadeeth at th age of 71 in IRAQ. Rather misquoted. Imam Bukhari just copied as did the others.
Exactly Broda! The arabic language is such that you are bound to make a mistake. Ibn Hisham is the only person from where this narrations erupts and the rest copied form him. The hadeeth atleast need 2 or more narrator known to authenticate but here only one. She said SIXTEEN and he wrote Six ohly leaving teen out, from his memory pass on the buck – game thing (chain of narrators) Also his memory is contested as he wrote this hadeeth at 71 years age in IRaq and most of the Scholars don;t accept Iraqi tradtions. Including Imam Malik and Ibn Kathir.
He did not regulate that. Neither the Muslim GOD ALLAH. ITs you who misunderstood and the muslim herd of sheep. The work (Qoran) whether Fable or Fact is one of the good litterary works. The Surah are in Arabic language called Loga Fosah (non-colloquial). It has pinch of salt oops!!! Aramaic, Syrian, Hebrew and all other. But a different language. It was not understood as the language demands. The Muslim scholars amongst themselves are fighting on these isseus of the real sene and meaning. How could you be so sure on it. Are you a Moslem? (another sheep) stay away!!! But don't hurt them as well. The more you tease them the more they are ofended and do unethical things and all of us suffer. Spread love and humanity with peace. Someone says : Brick and stone may break my bones but words hurt me more. We are doing it??? Are you an atheist? IF no them remain happy with your God and do what you are supposed to but If you are an atheist then join people like me. I love to spread Truth and invite all to one religion of Moral Values and Ethics.
For starter, mind telling me as why Muhammad forbade too many questions?
No need to tackle you. You have no proof whatsoever. Why don't you tackle me instead on various topics here?
Simple logic? No Isaac, Sina attacks Islam because Islam destroys human freedom and it is the only religion that haven't evolved until this day. Mo and Aisha is a symbol of "perfect marriage" in muslim's mind especially sunni. You don't want present day muslims to emulate that, do you? Don't tell me, being an atheist means he doesn't care about all of these.
Sina is nobody's god. In here we are talking about who has the evidence.
I guess my ideas are not typical and not bugging to your intellectuals. Sahih Bukhari and Muslim can also be contested. Man Islam is so important to us that we put up $50k and so prizes.
My question is Does GOD exists??? IF yes then Which one? Once selected What does HE/SHE need from us and Why?
Wanna play???
Its his "PRIDE" The so called BOOK!!!
Do one thing remove the prise money from the refutations I still will deal with you. Atleast that would make Sina bold enough to translate music directly. Waiting!!!
Leave scholar first tackle me!!! He doesn't reply quite often….plz ask him to do so!!! If he looses he can always open a new website with new ids and reach more people with his blasphemy.
Simple logic if he is an true atheist then why is he bothered with MO and Aisha. His focus should be to get people out of the BLACK WHOLE of "THE GOD THING". His work should be whether GOd exists? Where and Why? lolz stuffs like this.
I would request you to CAll upon your GOD ALI SINA to Defeat me or atleast close to convince me with his lies. Oops!!! At times he is logical I have read his article but some points just like Dr Zakir Naik and Bishops of Churches. Holla!!!
I have all the answers for you mate. The muslims would fail, so might the christians or Jews in answering your questions. I won't. Ask me!!!
Accepted by Muslims,doesn't mean its free from errors. Again Its considered Authentic incase of Sunnah practises like how to pray, fast, piligrimage and eat etc. For historical evidences we cannot rely on it. To be honest by narrations we won;t be able to get the exact age of MO himself. Its really a bizzare work done by Islamists in regards to dates and events.
Look! I can't all someone a Pedo unnecessarily. If she Aisha was 6 years then he was if not (as proven not) then he wasn't. By the way who is bothered We don't want to revert to Islam anyways, so how does Bukhari matters to us? So are you convinced about her age? Brother~
You can post your write ups hear. Eventually I am planning to publish articles written by Muslims in faithfreedom.org Hopefully we will do that soon.
The hadiths about the age of Aisha mostly are narrated by herself. They came to several Muhaddes, not just Bukhari, from a variety of chains of narration. They are what can be called muttiwatir hadit, i.e. more than Sahih.
To much of this spam on this topic here already.
So do you have the police file on Hisham's crime, or the court verdict on his conviction? Or maybe you talked to him and he confessed to you.
Not true. The scientific community is full of members of various religions. You need to stop thinking purple thoughts on your toadstool and get out and meet some real people.
But Bukahri is accepted among Muslims as being the most reliable in being selective about incorporating authentic ahadith.
Malign someone's character? We are talking about someone who lived 1400 years ago? Why are you worried about his character? His character is already established in Islamic jurisprudence. There is nothing your efforts are going to accomplish in overturning 1400 years of Muslim scholarly tradition establishing that Muhammad married Aisha at age 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9. This is a permanent fixture of Muslim culture which is only denied in the West. But you need to look at some of the Undercover Mosque films to see that what Muslims tell outsiders is considerably different from the way they talk among themselves. When Muslims take over an area, they take off the mask and show their real values [or lack thereof].
Are you seeing my Posts. They are so convincing. Mr Ali Sina Aisha's age is clarified by logic and fact. The Muslims have fooled them with Few Hadeeth in Bukhari (further copied in Muslim etc) about Aisha's age. She could not way be 6 or 7 years. Ibn Hisham is the only narrator to comment about her age no one before or after did, but copied it from him. Ibn Hisham misquoted or fabricated it.
By the way even I am planning to write few pages about Muhammed, would you like me to send you a personal copy or should I post it?
"it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah" This is not true, here is the full list 1) Sahih muslim 2)sunan abee dawood 3)sunan an-nasaaee this is just a few go to this site to see the full list http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/local_links.ph… (click on the link to download the book which by the way is written by a much more honest muslim than you, he also refutes all your other arugments).
Firstly there is no argument about it; Aisha was 6 years old when married to Muhammad and Muhammad consummated the marriage with Aisha when Aisha was 9 years old.
Sahih Hadith
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
All these hadeeth from Bukhari have been quoted from Ibn Hisham on the authority of his father Hisham while in Iraq at the age of 71. No one else before or after ever reported about these misquoted hadeeths. Ibn Hisham suffered memory loss and was too old then. As reported by Islamic scholars like Imam Malik Ibn Kathir. Everyone has copied these hadeeth of Aisha from Ibn Hisham. Remember Book of Bukhari is known authentic for Practices that need to be followed but not historical events such as marriages. No one was bothered to check these unit questioned. The tenacity is doubtful. You atleast need 2 or more Narrators known to establish a Hadeeth. By the way why am I saying all this here. I have nothing to do with these stupid arguments.
The real question I want to ask you is that Do you believe in GOD? If yes then Which and Why?
By the way the Americans have established this law inorder to prevent early teen pregnancy. So the Teens could atleast marry now with whomever they wish and settle down and start owning their responsibilities. Rather than reproducing and staying in parent's house and being a burden on them. Its because of "WE LOVE SEX" and "lets have Babies" culture spreading all around. Now let us not blame Islam for this cause they aren't Moslems. They are crazy bunch of Looters and Fuckers growing all around UK, USA, France, Italy and many more. The day is not far that we old bunch would be slaves to Young Butts.
"insulting and humilities of the ethical values and moralities of the prophet," I thought what ever the prophet did is good, good is what allah says is good not humans. Also you are "skeptical" about aisha stated age. But you do not doubt allah`s existence and muhammeds prophethood.
"Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction" and so becuse one is wrong does that mean they all must be?
Good answer! But harsh 🙁
Jesus do you want me to speak about him? For me Moral Ethics matters not Religion or GOD.
Nobody should insult the other. Read my posts you would see that Aisha was not 6 or 7 years of age. Its clarified. I am not a Muslim or a Chritian but Human.
Question: How do we know about Aisha's age?
Answer : Bukahri
Question Who quotes that Hadeeth – Hisham Ibn Urwah
Question: How many other narrators reported the same?
Answer: None! All from Hisham Ibn Urwah .
NOW UINDERSTAND ONE THING THE HADEETH IS REPORTED FROM IBN HISHAM IN 3-4 PLACES IN BUKHARI.
Al-Zuhri also reports it from Urwah, from Ayesha; so does Abd Allah Ibni
Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it
from her in the Musnad and in Ibni Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d Ibni
Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim Ibni Muhammad, one of the Seven
Imams of Medina from Ayesha.
All of them took it from Hisham. Even Sahih Muslim . The Hadeeth is fabrication and canot be trusted upon.
Awaiting reply!
Question: How do we know about Aisha's age?
Answer : Bukahri
Question Who quotes that Hadeeth – Hisham Ibn Urwah
Question: How many other narrators reported the same?
Answer: None! All from Hisham Ibn Urwah .
NOW UINDERSTAND ONE THING THE HADEETH IS REPORTED FROM IBN HISHAM IN 3-4 PLACES IN BUKHARI.
Al-Zuhri also reports it from Urwah, from Ayesha; so does Abd Allah Ibni
Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it
from her in the Musnad and in Ibni Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d Ibni
Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim Ibni Muhammad, one of the Seven
Imams of Medina from Ayesha.
All of them took it from Hisham. Okay!
Yes Brother I do. This happens in most of the Muslim country and Indian Subcontinent. The female ar shy to come in front of males (by order -religion). Here the male and female of any age do not mingle. Check the culture and tradition of these continents you will get an idea.
Now there is no hadeeth in any book talking about her age (6 or 12). This is only available on the authority of Ibn Hisham who fabricated it.
Kill all the people who believe in GOd or GODS (religion and people following it). Again a new religion with new GOD will be born. This doesn't solve the purpose. Dr Zakir Naik or John or Rabbi's don't command our lives. Its our instinct and ethics. No faith is true because each has flaws (can't even count).
For me the most important thing is "MORAL VALUES AND ETHICS". Think about each other and care for each other. To understand this simple thing we DON'T need JESUS or MO or YHWW (can't even pronounce this- man).
We must pledge not to harm Jews, Christians, Moslims, Hindus, Agnostics, Ethiests, Punjabis, Buddhists, Zorastrians, Etc etc.
Killing one is killing all Why only muslims??? Save them and help them. Even they deserve to live. IF they are getting carried away with religious Dogmas (Jihad etc). Don't criticise their relgion but teach them Humanity. Slowly and gradualy you would see the world would be a better place and hereafter (if exisits). Two World Wars didnt happen because of religion but the third one might because of people like us who criticise religion and hurt the sentiments of many (though Myths). You suddenly cannot snatch the toy from the child's hand and ask him to go to work. Everything is gradual. Ask the child to also spend sometime studying or learning, then help him iniculcate new hobbies, habbits or activities etc. The time he used to play with toy would automatically reduce and slowly he would be on the constructive side more while he grows up. He must also play (all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy) and learn at the same time. This is Equilibrium.
If we keep calling names to a person – a model figure of any religion, then it is us who are the real CRIMINALS. We ridicule them to such an extent that they would not even come close to us and now, if we offer them Honey they would consider it Poison. So we lost on the grounds of Humanity. It is because of us that we remain hostile to each other.
Science tell us that the color of the blood are same. Sample taken through WARS and Bloodsheds are listed below:
1. Christians :- Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans or Baptists, Fundamentalist Christianity, Pietism, Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Lutherans Etc
2. Jews (JUDAISM): – Sabbateans, Reform Judaism , Orthodox Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, Karaite Judaism etc
3. Islam – Shias, Sunni, Kadiyan Ahmadiyya, Bohra Muslims, Agha Khani etc
4. Hinduism – plenty of them
5. Ethiest – Each one is different in opinions
So are we going to say that we would follow some religion and kill the rest or curse the rest?
@John That together with the "God willing" attitude has stifled the advancement of scholarship and learning in Muslim society.
Its the same with all the religion even Christianity and Judaism or Hinduism etc. The crux of the matter is Does GOD exist? Do we need GOd? What does GOd need from us and why?
These are better questions to work on in order to uplift the society rather than pin pointing relegions. One of my Christian friend said Islam doesnt prove any miracle about being divine and Muhammed too lacked divinity.
I asked him Now Mother Marry was a virgin Mom to Jesus. Is that miracle and should we believe that? How would this or that belief help us grow in life?
Again The question we must discuss is whether God exists or Not. Other wise we can keep fighting and kill millions proving some or the other religion better.
"FIGHT THE CRIME NOT THE CRIMINAL".
AM I asking you to believe in Muhammed. Go with the research and I am with it. But even if we consider it fiction we cannot malign someones character. The protagonist Muhammed married Aisha when she was in her teens (consider it fiction). There are views to support this as well and she may be 6 or 7 years old there are views supporting this as well. But the 6 or 7 years are based on only one person named Ibn Hisham. But the views abt her teen age are logical and acceptable. Take it as a fiction and fable still the fiction should not change from the way it was told or establish.
Example:Mahabharat is fiction (Mythology) but we cannot make changes to the story. The moment we change or alter then the original work is gone. SO many hindus believe in Mahabharat, today if you tell them that Drapadi was characterless and slept with 5 guys (husbands) at same time (gangbang etc) it becomes a d pornography rather than fiction anymore. My moral ethics doesnt allow me to do so. From ancient mythology we know Pandora opened the box now if you like even knowing its fiction or myth, change the name of pandora to some other name or say she didnt open it but Pamela Anderson Lee did. That would be called as fabrication in the real or original work.
Now whether Islam or Hinduism or Christianity is true or not is another argument. If you believe in GOD then go with what suits your need best and If you are an atheist like me then We don't need GOD, our Moral Ethics, Science and Humanity is suffice. Hope that answers the question.
The majority of Muslims considers two of the six Hadith books, those authored by Al-Bukhari (d. 870 A.D) and Al-Muslim (d. 875 A.D) most authentic after the Qur’an despite the fact that they were written 200-300 years after the advent of Islam. Both of the books were collected more than one century after the first book of Hadith having been first published by Ibni Ishaq. These scholars of Islam exercised great caution in selecting what they called correct traditions and proceeded with purest of intentions but one must not lose sight of the fact that they still collected narrations from living people who were not primary or even secondary and tertiary sources of the accounts of the life and sayings of Muhammad and his companions. Some Islamic historians (and/or exegetes of the Qur’an) whose books about early Islamic history are considered of high importance and who derive their history of early Islam from the saheeh of Ibni Ishaq include Tabari (d. 923 ), Ibni Katheer, Ibni Hisham (d. 827 A.D) and Ibni Hajar Al Asqalani, to name a few.
Muhammed died when he was 63. So he must have married Aisha when he as 51 and went to her when he was 54. Khadija died in December of 619 AD. That is two years before Hijra, at that time the Prophet was 51years old. So in the same year that Khadija died the prophet married Ayesha and took her to his home 3 years later, one year after Hijra. But until she group up he married Umm Salama. In another part Ayesha claims that as long as she remembers her parents were always Muslims.
As it can be clearly demonstrated, each and every parts of the above mentioned narratives internally and externally contradict all other narratives with respect to the age of the marriage of Ayesha and
Mohammad. Once again, we are left with a critical choice, as to whether discount the reliability of the conflicting narratives which are insulting and humilities of the ethical values and moralities of the prophet, or hold the narratives without any objects and accuse and condemn the prophet as less
than pure and perfect, disregarding all other evidences, including authentic reports and statements of the holy Quran with respect to the innocence, purity, and perfection stand and behavior of the prophet.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'ltafseer) Ayesha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction
with the narratives reported by Hisham Ibni `Urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham Ibni `Urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9 year old. Although, this information is widely quoted and found
in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source.
Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9 year old. Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source. tradition, Ayesha was a young girl Jariyah— as she calls herself and not an infant in which case she would be Sibyah). Additionally, this narrative
stands in direct contrast to the one reported on Ayesha’s age by Hisham bin Urwah. This puts Ayesha’s age significantly higher than 9 as reported by Hisham bin Urwah—possibly 15 or even higher. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham Ibni Urwah. There is no compelling reason as to why this tradition should be considered less accurate vis-à-vis Hisham’s narrative). (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr).
A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad Ibni Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr. (Musnad, Ahmad Ibni Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-arabi, Beirut).
Tahzib Al Tahzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports that according to Yaqub Ibni Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik Ibni Anas** objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Vol 11, pg 48 – 51) Also, Mizan Al I’etidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (Vole 4, pg 301 – 302)
Al-Dhahabi in Mizan Al I’tidal (4:301 No.9233) states: "Hisham Ibni Urwah, one of the eminent personalities, a Proof is in himself, and an Imam, however, in his old age his memory diminished”
**MALIK IBN ANAS is also called Imam Malik – very renouned scholar, jurist, muhadeeth, imam and teacher of Imam Safii and founder of Maliki Madhab.
NOw do we understand the Hadeeth and how we cannot depend on this to identify Aisha's age.
If we do take the Hadeeth about Aisha being 6 then we have to take the Hadeeth saying about Asma, which in return would contradict his own hadeeth and whole thing would be null and void. Brothers Though we are not muslims but we should not falsely accuse someone of something. Atleast my Moral Ethics (My GOD) won;t allow me to do so.
Remember lot of people earn money doing all this. Some gain by writing against and some by writing for, that is how the whole business goes on. My duty is to let you know the fact.
Think! if its not Bukhari then is there any argument? NO
This Hadeeth has several errors and not reported by atleast 2 main narrators and cannot show an evident chain leading to Aisha. We cannot count on this alone. It was a mis-quoted hadeeth. Or may be the people of Iraq maligned it later.
Contradictory? In many cases maybe. In fact, the entire Islamic texts are contradictory. But not in this particular case. Details are abundant. Some hadiths even report that when Muhammad came and Aisha was playing with her girlfriends suddenly they went into hiding from Muhammad.
What kind of 18-19 year olds go hiding when another adult came along? Do you know one?
Except if Aisha and his girlfriends were retards that would have make perfect sense.
I don’t care much about Hisham or hadith-ing procedures in this particular case because i don’t think they contradict each other.
Now if any, can you give me hadith(s) that EXPLICITLY in contradiction to the hadiths that say Aisha was six and/or nine?
What difference does it make? Maybe Aisha never even existed. Recent research suggests Muhammad himself may have never existed. He may have been invented by Arabs bent on conquest.
What matters is that Islamic jurisprudence accepts Aisha's marriage age at 6 and her consummation age at 9, and hence a long and broadly applied Sharia law tradition which accepts marriage at age 6. Then they take it further and some fatwas permit thighing infants. There is no end to the depravity endorsed by this so-called religion.
So now we know that Hisham is the narrator on whose authority Aisha has been quoted saying her age.
IF YOU BELIEVE BUKHARI AHADEETH REPORTED BY IBN HISHAM
THEN YOU MUST ALSO BELIVE HIS OTHER AHADEETH AS WELL
Ibni Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham Ibni Urwah, from his father, that Asma did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74H.
Now that is why Asma becomes important because Hisham talks about her age. Bukhari collected it from Hisham.
So it is 100% practical to compare Asma's age with that of Aisha's to get the real age.
Remember AISHA hersef did not write Bukhari. It was first reported by Hisham Ibn Urwa and after him many quoted from him.
Aisha herself wrote any book. NO ONE ELSE HAS REPORTED ABOUT HER AGE OTHER THAN HISHAM LONG TIME AFTER SHE KICKED THE BUCKET. You guys don't understand the "Science of Hadeeth Collection" But argue. Something mentioned in Bukhari doesnt mean it was written by Muhamed or Aisha or Hurairah themselves. It was through chain of narrators. Ibn Hisham lost his memory and the first time he quoted this Age concerning hadeeth was at 70+ age in IRAQ.
Hisham Ibni Urwah was a resident of the city of Medina for the first seventy one years of his life. He emigrated in Iraq at age seventy two and maintained his residence for the rest of his life. Hisham is the first narrator who narrated the age of the marriage of Ayesha with Mohammad. Many famous and credible scholars, narrators, and historian of Islam, including Malik Ibni Anas, were the
students of Hisham Ibni Urwah. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
None of the narratives of the Hisham Ibni Urwah was established, initiated, or reported from Medina. There is no evidence of any of his students to have ever recorded or reported to have heard Hisham Ibni Urwah narrated or reported about the events, and indeed all alleged reports came later on
from Iraq, when he was too old, and probably with weak or distorted memory.
The Prime narrator of the early childhood marriage :
With respect to the issue of the age of Ayesha at her marriage with the prophet, most of the narratives are reported only by Hisham Ibni Urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported should logically have been reported by more people than
just one, two or three.
On the other hand, when in this paper, it is stated that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only; it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. For example in Bukhari:
It is often stated and argued that of the four hadith in Saheeh Bukhari, two were narrated from Ayesha (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via Urwah (7:88)." It must be noted that this statement, is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement
is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari is carefully attended to, it will be established that in the first two cases, the statement of Ayesha has been quoted by none other than Urwah, or Abu Hishaam Urwah, which means the
father of Hishaam, and which means the same person and the same single narrator ! Again, it must be noted that Abu Hisham and Urwah, and Ibni Urwah, are all the same person. I have checked narratives of more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, and found out that they all have reported it directly from Ayesha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than Ayesha. It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham Ibni Urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated
the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik Ibni Anas.
With respect to the unity of sources referred to for more than one narrative, often we fail to note that, although in any given narrative there might have been more than one narrator, the fact is that they are all considering the first person, Sahaba ( any of Mohammad’s contemporary apostles ), in the chain of narrators of these reports. As mentioned, it must be noted that, with respect to the age of Ayesha
when she married, most of the existing supportive narratives are reported only by Hisham Ibni Urwah reporting on the authority of his father, Urwah. And when measuring the extent of the validity of a given narrative, as a norm of scrutiny and standard of evaluation, the narrative should logically have been reported by more than one particular reporter or narrator. As a traditional and acceptable practice, narrations reported by less than three narrators are not reliable, especially when they are found to have material conflict with the origin source where narrative had been initiated.
Question: How do we know about Aisha's age?
Answer : Bukahri
Question Who quotes that Hadeeth – Hisham Ibn Urwah
Question: How many other narrators reported the same?
Answer: None! All from Hisham Ibn Urwah .
NOW UINDERSTAND ONE THING THE HADEETH IS REPORTED FROM IBN HISHAM IN 3-4 PLACES IN BUKHARI.
Al-Zuhri also reports it from Urwah, from Ayesha; so does Abd Allah Ibni
Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it
from her in the Musnad and in Ibni Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d Ibni
Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim Ibni Muhammad, one of the Seven
Imams of Medina from Ayesha.
All of them took it from Hisham. Okay!
Well hadeeths are present talking about her figure and body. After all the same Muslim texts you see.
Bu the way DO know anybody reporting about her age apart in Bukhari?
Please read my NEW POST. Cause I cannot reply to 3 people at the same time instead putting it up in the NEW POST . Okay. PLease revert bakc if you have any questions. By the way did you see @Juste, he tickle my bones brother.
Bukahri link :-
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagemen…
Bukhari : Volume 3, Book 37, Number 494:
Narrated Aisha:
(wife of the Prophet) Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshiping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah's Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening.
This hadeeth talks about secret prayers when Aisha was an age to remember things (assume 2+) this hadeeth talks about the 3 years of secret prayer before 613 A.D. So Aisha was of 2+ atleast so what age would she be in 623 A.D????
12 years I guess. Again Bukhari quotes this hadeeth too in the same book which talks about Aisha being 6 or 7 years.
Was were there no mention of her age before these hadeeth?
By the way do you know how to scrutinize a Hadeeth?
I have few interesting facts for you.
Sir,
I doubt and I also doubt Aisha being 6 or 7 years. What I am saying is we cannot depend completely on Ahdeeth by Muslims Bukhari. They are very contradictory.
The only person reporting this Ahdeeth in Bukhari is IBN HISHAM….There has to be atleast 2 or 3 more to authenticate it. Thats how a hadeeth is taken. BU the way no other book before Buhari says so.
I think you are not much into reading so I would like to play little question & answer with you.
please reply to affrim. I am waiting.
"unknown to the scholars of Madinah, they cannot be trusted" They cannot be trusted simply becuse because they came from outside madinah? There is no requirement for a hadith to be narrated in Medina for it to be considered sahih.
""IMAM BUKHARI (AUTHOR OF BUKHARI) SAYS:" This is same guy who wrote the hadiths down about aisha been six right?"
"Her description is intelligent and mature, and not typical of an account as might have been given by a child of merely five years of age for the former, and eight for the later – if she was born in 614." Aisha was merely retelling what mohammed told her. Don`t muslims boast that even the little kids (Not just muslims but christians, jews and hindus as well) can recite whole books so i see nothing miracluas in aisha (if she was 5) retelling one story.
"By all means I am able to provide data talking about AIsha's real age." You are have not, you repeated the same thing about fatima been 5 years older i have already answered that, muhamed had other children also are they even mentioned?
"2. FATIMA – You won't consider
3. ALI – you won't consider" What is the revelvance of ali or fatima`s age to aisha?
"one hundred years" 100 is a round number say you see a very old women (who is in fact 98) you would probably not say 98 but 100 becuse it is a nice round number.
"You Won't consider" Again why is it 10, a round number again. You keep on reapeating this, who is the central figure in islam- mo, anyone else is not that important. Koran does not say to follow the examples of ali or asma but does say follow the example of mo. If you where a muslim in mo`s lifetime you pay attention to what mo did not anyone else. Everything about mo is deatailed, from the accounts of his battles, his teaching of hell fire to even him taking off his rings. Those are the sort of things you would pay attention to, not when ali his kid counsin was born or the age diffence between aisha and her half sister.
Isaac,
No, i don’t hide the truth. Only muslims do that.
For example, muslims can lie about being muslims for the glory of Islam. The concept is called taqqiya. But i guess, being a non-muslim you probably don’t know that.
I never said Aisha was six.
But corroborated hadiths said so. Aisha was six when she married Muhammad, got laid when she was nine.
A. She narrated herself as being so.
B. There is another hadith narrated by somebody else that says the same.
C. She was playing hide and seek and dolls and swing.
D. At one point, it was her mother that washed her face before she became acquainted with Muhammad.
E. Both of her parents were alive to tell her when she was born when she narrated the hadith.
F. Abu Bakr was surprised to say the least, when Muhammad said that she wanted Aisha.
I do not doubt these details. Ali Sina said Asma died in the age of 100 is a mistake. It should be 90 which makes the age of Aisha accurate. And obviously old and dead people can’t tell everybody their exact age to the people around them the day they died.
Now, i repeat my question to you. Why we should NOT DOUBT Asma’s age when she died at the age of 100 instead of 90?
Will you answer? Or will you go freaking out again?
It is a reality that for one particular event one finds many conflicting ahadith. For example, in Tabri there are ahadith that say the Prophet’s (SA) age was 60, 63, 65 (vol. 2, part 2); or concerning Fatima’s death: after the death of RasoolAllah (SA) she lived only 3 days, 1 month, 2 days, 5 days, 4 months, or 6 months (Shibli, Seerat An-Nabi, vol. 2). This difference is yet of a few days or months; Waqdi wrote that Sauda died in 54 hijri and Imam Bukhari wrote that she died during Omar’s administration as caliph (meaning before 23 hijri). Fifty-four is much more than 23. As long as these conflicts are not concerned with matters of Deen (those matters having to do with the Islamic Deen). Full detail check this weblink:-
http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/tkn/TK_III_n.htm
The word "Fatima" appear 96 time(s) in 74 hadith(s) in Bukhari translation. Yet she is not a prominent figure, and you don;t want to calculate the age of Aisha based on the age of Fatima.
I will give you Hadeeth from BUKHARI now, then would you accept she was not 6 or 7 years?
How is it irrelevant. Who decides? All I said was Fatima's age also tell us that Aisha was not 6 or 7 years at that time Sir. From all the corners I am trying to say my brother that Aisha wasn't 6 or 7years.
1. ASMA – you won't consider
2. FATIMA – You won't consider
3. ALI – you won't consider
4. IBN JARIR AL-TABARI – you won't consider
5. WALI-UD-DIN MUHAMMED Ibn Abdullah al-kHATIB : The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, who died 700 (700 YEARS) years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr: “She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [Mishkat al-Masabih, Edition with Urdu translation published in Lahore, 1986, vol. 3, p. 300–301.] – But you won't consider though 700 years old saying. YOU Won't Consider
6. IBN KATHIR – Whose Quranic Commentary is well known and authentic amongts Muslims, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” [Vol. 8, p. 346. ] – You Won't consider
7. IMAM MALIK (711 A.D -795 A.D) AND IMAM SHAFI'I SAYS :
Even the narratives in the Sihah (the Authentic Books of Hadith) about Aishah’s nikah which claim Aishah herself as the source are suspect, because the chain of authorities on which this narrative is based consists entirely of either Basri or Kufi elements.
Yaqub ibn Abi Shaybah, Ibn Kharash and Imam Malik, as also Ajurri, Uqayli and Abu al-Aswad, all maintain that Hisham’s Iraqi references are invalidated, and untrustworthy. The reason is the very serious objection that these narratives were completely unknown to the people of Madinah.
Both Imam Malik (711 A.D -795 A.D) and Imam al-Shafi’i (767 A.D-820 A.D) [all born much before Imam Bukhari (810 A.D – 870 A.D)] declared: ‘Any tradition with no roots in Hijaz has no substance, that means, it is not trustworthy. (Tadrib al-Rawi’ (Egypt) p.23.)
Therefore, since all the narratives and references related to Aishah’s nikah and wedding, even those alleged to be on the authority of Aishah herself, originated in Iraq and were unknown to the scholars of Madinah, they cannot be trusted even though they fulfill the conditions laid down by some of the compilers of the Six Authentic Books.
The only piece of non-Iraqi evidence to back up the Iraqi material is the reference of Muhammad ibn Shihab al-Zuhri recording a similar statement – also on the authority of Urwah, Hisham’s father. However, it has not been established whether al-Zuhri heard this directly from Urwah. Ibn Hajar, the great interpreter of al-Bukhari, stated:
“There is no proof that Muhammad ibn Shihab attended to Urwah directly, though it has been proved that he gathered references from other authorities, even greater than Urwah. (‘Tahdhib al-Tahdhib’ (Beirut) Vol IX/450).
8. IMAM BUKHARI (AUTHOR OF BUKHARI) SAYS:
Surat al-Qamar has not been dated precisely, but if it was revealed some five years before the Hijrah (617 CE), then if Aishah was born in 614 she was only three years old. However, if she was born in 605 she was 12, and far more likely to have dolls. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Bab al-Tafsir. This playing with dolls is used to indicate her extreme youth.)
9. AISHA :Amongst the hadiths emanating from Aishah are a detailed account of the Miraj (the Ascension of the Holy Prophet to the Heavens), which took place in 619 CE, and of the Migration from Makkah to Madinah in 622 CE. Her description is intelligent and mature, and not typical of an account as might have been given by a child of merely five years of age for the former, and eight for the later – if she was born in 614.
By all means I am able to provide data talking about AIsha's real age. Except for the Bukhari's MISQUOTED HADEETHS. Bukhari was written some 150+ years afterwards. Do you have any other Hadeeth talking about her age prior to that?
Wow!!! You caught me…You hid the truth.
Cmmon are we playing some game. I think Aisha wasn't 6 but you are.
Everyones watching the posts. They would laugh at you seeing the posts above. Hae a nice day dude!
"Do we have any older hadeeth than Bukhari talking about her age?" Their are no surviving hadiths before bukhari.
Yes Fatima they worship not aisha whose guts they hate. They are not going to care about when aisha was born or how old she was when she died. Fatima`s age is as i already said, is irrelvant to the issue of aisha.
"MR BUKHARI after a gap of atleast 150 years" So your point is, the muslims memorised those things and passed it along one to the next. Now the miracle is despite many different people saying it (who did not know each other)they all say the same thing. If 1000 games of "chinese whispers" going on all simultaneously , and the people first to go where all told the same same (aisha was 9 at time of her marriage) and at the end of the game 900 out of a 1000 still said 9 years that would make you think the original thing said most likely was 9 years old.
"So why can't people assume her to be 6 or 7 years because of her short and lean figure." Becuse 6 year olds are not adults even with midgets you can tell the diffence between a adult and child. Also why if aisha could have passed as been a 6 year old (from a distance) it is never mentioned once anywhere becuse if she was that short she would be a midget.
Here’s the thing Isaac,
Hadith states that when Aisha narrated herself to be either six or nine, both of her parents were alive.
She could easily asked her parents either her age or the year when she was born.
When Asma was SAID to be 100 when she died. Her parents were obviously not around to remind her about her age, and she was an old lady. You know what aging can do to memories. THINK.
"Would she only cook whole day, read newspaper, do facebook, go to beauty parlor, shop with other girls or in some CALL CENTER???" Are you saying becuse the arabs had no modern techology they had no other forms of entertainment? So what the women do then, sit around all day playing with dolls i don`t think so.
"Take the example of Muslim Countries" Bad comparison ancient arabia was not a sick muslim country where women are treated like a personal sex toy, the women of arabia had rights, they had jobs (like mo`s first wife) could worship their gods at the kaaba and cheer on their husbands in battle (like hind is noted to have done). Even some of their gods were female.
"It was misquoted in Bukhari." No it isn`t and it is also reported by others beside him.
"Several hadeeth and books by Islamic scholars are mentioned above in earlier posts." No one you quoted, said Aisha`s actual age the "best" quote you came up with was the one mentioning that aisha was about 5 years younger than fatima.
"What other games could she play other than swing, dolls, hide and seek etc." Mature adults do not play games or at not those sort of games. When you was a child did your parents and their friends run around your house playing hide and seek i don`t think so somehow.
Uh-Uh Isaac,
You started it, now i’m down with it.
Base on your Nine Points above, Aisha was SAID to be younger ten years of Asma.
Doubt!!! No issues even I do!!
The point is that both of the above argument would be null and void. We would not be able to say who was what age. Aisha may or may not be 6 or 7 and Asma could be 73 or 100 years. Who cares. But ithe believers in Aisha say she was a toddler and she was abused. I don't. If Asma was not 100 years old then even Aisha could also not be 6years old.
There is no other reliable source to count on other than "HADEETH" which are not written by me or my father. I even doubt so called Hadeeths. Sometime I think what is the significance of Muslim population is they are only a herd of sheep.
I guess the whole topic now is null and void. We could not establish the age of Aisha and Asma and whether Muhammed was a pedo or not?
Now you could sleep nicley without any headache of writing and increasing the thread.
I think my brothers ALI and Enlightened25 would stil be interested in continuing with it without disturbing you.
Thank You for Your Precious Time and Sense of Understanding a Fact. You can surely go up the terrace and SAY "WHEN TRUTH IS HEARD FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH BECAUSE BY NATURE ITS BOUND TO" .
I DOUBT it for sure. You are RIGHT!!!
@enlightened25: she would hardly have realized the significance of the happening when she was a toddler of around one to two" If it was you, would you forget the man you believe is the messanger of god speaking the direct words of the creator the universe (as you believe)?
Were we talking about some messenger? I didn't know. Thought it was regarding Aisha's age and a guy marrying her when she was a toddler. I can;t believe this based on some Muslim Scholar's view in Bukhari or hadeeths.
I have observed religion carefully and the Islamic Scholars have made several errors in conveying the hadeeths.
YOu say: I have never seen a 12 year old play with dolls in my life but i have seen plenty of little children (most of whom are less than half that age)do it.
I say: I have seen many girls playing with Dolls and even hugging them while sleeping until they are 15 or so. Especially girls who don't go out and are restricted within home environment. They call their friends home (girls only) and play with whatever is available like hide and seek, swing, ludo (if they have) and DOLLS etc.
Tell me one thing what other games could she play and with what, whether she was 6 or 7 or 9 or 12? Would she only cook whole day, read newspaper, do facebook, go to beauty parlor, shop with other girls or in some CALL CENTER??? Cmmon man nothing was available. She was of the mentality and to her dolls suited best at any age. Remember there is another Hadeeth in Bukhari talking about she peeping through her window while with Muhammed, watching sword fight (mock). This time she was married already to him. Whatever opportunity she got she enjoyed. She had a chance to entertain herslef with this so she did. If there were other things available she coulld have also done those. She was by nature a homely girl. Read her Biography it will give you lot of helpful information.
Arabia wasnt like US where girls and boys could do what they wanted. Even Adults can't most of the time. Take the example of Muslim Countries like Afghanistan , Pakistan, Iraq and India.
India wasn't a muslim nation but even during the golden age (hinduism) the girls were married at a very young age. It was okay to marry a girl of 7+ girl. Fathers used to offer huge dowry to get their girl married to some old chap in the king's court or sometime Kings. They have just opened their from Ignorance. The whole world has been hostile place for women eversince. Its only from recent past that women have come out of closet. Thanks to many westerners. Is burping a crime? St Pauls cathedral would impose fine on someone burping inside the church. Brother THINK!!!
Isaac,
If you think that we should doubt Aisha was six and nine. Can you give us a reason why we should NOT DOUBT Asma’s age of 100 when she died.
Enter text right here!2)Fatima`s age was not important to the muslims.
FATIMA'S age is very important incase you didn;t know. The whole SHIITES believe her as AhleBaith. They denounce Aisha in many places. But Fatima for them is a worshipped figure.
Didn't get that!!! I was speaking about Islamic calendar which doesn't have 365 days. Now that would certainly make a huge difference in a person's age. Only in the times of Omar the calendar was officially launched. Prior to that people calculated but not correctly most of the times. The Hadeeth in Bukhari came much after than Omar's time. Rather it was sometime near 820+ A.D.
Do we have any older hadeeth than Bukhari talking about her age?
Again! I am not saying I believe in divine scriptures or Muhammed directives. But I love facts. She was not 6 or 7 years at that time. It was misquoted in Bukhari. Several hadeeth and books by Islamic scholars are mentioned above in earlier posts. What you need to do now is read "Mishkaat Aisha" autobiography. There would be several more contradictions with which you could debate better. But as far as her age is considered – Nah!
How many girls you want to see from subcontinent carrying doll till the age of 15 or 16. How many girls you would like to see from Arabia playing Doll marriages at the age of 11+. How many girls of 6 years and 8 years of age you would like to see playing cards and computer games????
These are pre-concieved notions you are carrying brother. The age has nothing to do with what sort of habits or games or activities a child or young girl or boy is involved with. Its the culture and surrounding. She was a girl and in Arab. What other games could she play other than swing, dolls, hide and seek etc. In Pakistan no female was allowed to walk outside of the house until few decades back. What would they do in the house. Hmmmmm No computers, cars, bikes, boyfriends, guns. I think they didn't even go for lesbian – lesbian game back then. So what would they do? They played with their dolls and lived in fantasies and probably masturbated secretly. Cmmon just playing with Dolls cannot tell you the age of some body.
By the way have you watch any movies made in India? If you watch any black and white movie you would see girls in drapes 16 years+ playing in groups in garden, swinging, hide and seek and ah ha DOLL Marriage. Even the elders come to their Mock Doll marriages. Arab league nations was so miser in thought. they would only look at a girl as if they were thier paid whores lifetime. The girls were married at young age but not at 6 years common. Just by Bukhari's misquoted traditions. THINK!!!
NO assumptions. Only facts.. Bukhari wasn't compiled before 800 becaue Imam Bukhari himself was born in 810A.D. Were there no Hadeeth before that. Ther is gap of almost 180- 200 years were there no narrations or hadeeth by muhadeeths concerning her age at time of marriage or having sex with Muhammed?
Brother you need to first understand how the hadeeth were collected and narrated year afer year and generation to generation.
As I already told you that in Bukhari AISHA herself doesnt write or talks. Its through a chain of narrators. "X" told "Y" and "Y" told "H" and "H" told B and so on then finally reached MR BUKHARI after a gap of atleast 150 years )approx). AISHA was of short figure. Ali Sina says back then young people conceived an older person to be more old then actual. Like Like in case of ASMA she was 73 and people assumed 100 years. As told by Ali Sina. So why can't people assume her to be 6 or 7 years because of her short and lean figure. Aisha herself says in Bukhari : Possible she never had a birth certificate and thought she could be of same age as other people thought her to be. By the way its quite difficult to guess a girl exact age of a girl who is short and lean. This is what I call assumption based on ALI SINA's viewpoint.
"Fatima was born in the year the Kaaba was being built, and that was 5 years before the nabuwwah" The year fatima was born is irrelevant what does matter is when aisha was born. You say their is one hadith which says aisha was "about" 5 years younger than fatima but what about all the hadiths that say aisha was nine? You don`t accept those hadiths (even though theirs a lot more of them which state a specific age) than just one weak hadith.
"But 30 years is most accurate." No 30 is more of a round number. It is obvious from these differing accounts of fatima`s age at the time of her death prove 2 things- 1)Those hadiths are unreliable and 2)Fatima`s age was not important to the muslims.
"From this it is clear that Aisha was born when Muhammed was in his 40th year (apprx)" I am afraid thats not the case, your one piece of evidence is someone guessing the age difference between aisha and fatima thats not good enough and is nowhere as good as the evidence that can be provided to support that aisha was 18 at the time of mo`s death.
"the Arabs did not have a calendar." How do you know that? The history of pre-islamic arabs was wiped out thanks to islam but we do know the arabs observed "forbidden months".
"one should start counting from 1979, leading to a year's difference." No that person is born in 1978 whether its 1st of jan or the 31st of dec. If for example a person is born in 1978 that person is in their 33rd year even if they were born on 31st of dec.
"This belief is so unanimously agreed upon that any research on the topic is considered not only superfluous, but a type of blasphemy." But what about muhammed then can you talk about the possiblity he may have been a liar or that allah may not exist are these things allowed? Or jinns, Or the punisment in the grave or muhammeds trip on a flying horse can you talk about the aburdity of those things?
"Aisha's age upon marriage was much greater." The question is which ones are more consistent? If one hadith says she was 19 another 14 or 10 hadiths say 9 which is more likely? Use your brain.
"When was Aisha's actual marriage?" That at least for me does not concern me at all, what concers me is the age she was when mo first had sex with her. If mohammed had "married" her when she was 9 but not had sex with her till she was 21 that would not bother me at all.
"Read the POST carefully many scholars disputed it much much earlier." The only scholar you quoted to support this was Muhammad Ali who died only 60 years ago and was a member of the Ahmadiyya sect(which i assume you are). If you can give me scholars from say 1000+ years ago that would prove your point.
I think Mr sina`s point was on the on one hand this person claims aisha was 19 and on the other hand make a claim she was 14. This was to show the weakness of the hadiths these people quoted. While we have many hadiths which all say the same, aisha was 9.
"SO WHY CANT THE SCHOLARS MAKE A MISTAKE." No one said the scholars cannot make a mistake.
Then what are you doing? All of your so called "evidence" is nothing but assumptions.
Ali Sina in a POST on this page itself while answering a question has goofed up. Lets have a look : –
Question to ALI : According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Aisha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer: BY ALI on this page scroll up to check. (HE says AISHA WAS 5 YEARS OLDER BUT THE QUESTIONER SAID AISHA WAS 5 YEARS YOUNGER) READ as copied and pasted:
ALI SINA SAYS:
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Aisha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Aisha must have been 30 years younger than Muhammad. So at the time of her marriage when he was 54, she must have been 24 years old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadiths that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older than Aisha and died in 73 Hijra. In that case at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old. The truth is that she was 17 years old. The two hadiths presented by the same apologist contradict each other and all other hadiths because both of them are wrong.
Ali Sina in a POST on this page itself while answering a question has goofed up. Lets have a look : –
Question to ALI : According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Aisha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer: BY ALI on this page scroll up to check. (HE says AISHA WAS 5 YEARS OLDER BUT THE QUESTIONER SAID AISHA WAS 5 YEARS YOUNGER) READ as copied and pasted:
ALI SINA SAYS:
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Aisha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Aisha must have been 30 years younger than Muhammad. So at the time of her marriage when he was 54, she must have been 24 years old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadiths that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older than Aisha and died in 73 Hijra. In that case at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old. The truth is that she was 17 years old. The two hadiths presented by the same apologist contradict each other and all other hadiths because both of them are wrong.
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NOW YOU WOULD SAY TO ERR IS HUMAN BUT WE KNOW THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO PUBLISH SUCH ARTICLES WITH SILLY ERRORS LIKE THIS. I AM NOT SAYING YOU ACTUALLY MEANT AISHA WAS OLDER RATHER IT WAS YOUR NEGLIGENCY AND YOUR TEAM'S FLAW. LITTLE MISTAKES LIKE SPELLING ERROR OR MIS ARRANGED WORDS ARE FINE BUT CHANGING THE WHOLE CONTEXT. OOPS. NO WORRIES TO ERR IS HUMAN. BUT HERE WE CANT AFFORD TO. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS AND CAREFUL IN FUTURE.
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Events are also reported when a child is forgetfull and young lads being forgetfull. We cant count on assumptions cmmon. Read my upcoming posts brother.
Hence, to find out Aisha's birth date we must find out Fatima's
Abbas went to Ali's house, and Fatima was saying to Ali that she was older than him. So Abbas told Fatima that she was born in the year the Quraish were building the Kaaba and Ali was born a few years before that (Al-Ghaba, vol. 4, pg. 280). Fatima was born in the year the Quraish were building the Kaaba and when the messenger of Allah was 35 years old (Al-Ghaba, vol. 4, pg. 377)
Fatima is the daughter of Muhammed. Khadija was her mother. Fatima was born in the year the Kaaba was being built, and that was 5 years before the nabuwwah (Tabqaat ibn Saad, vol. 8, pg. 11).
Abbas went to Ali's house, and he heard Fatima saying to Ali that she was older. So Abbas said to them that Fatima was born when the Quraish were building the Kaaba and Muhammad (SA) was 35, and Ali a few years before that (ibn Saad, vol. 8, pg. 17).
Upon her death, what was Fatima's age; there are many differences. Zubair bin Bakar narrated to Abdallah bin Al-Hasan that he was with Hisham bin Abdulmaalik and Kalbi. Hisham made an inquiry of Abdallah, "How old was Fatima bint Muhammed?" Abdallah replied, "30 years old." After this he asked Kalbi the same question and Kalbi replied, "35 years old." Upon hearing this Hisham said to Abdallah, "Listen to what Kalbi is saying," and Hisham gave more importance to Kalbia's testimony. Then Abdallah said, "Oh ameer al-momineen! Ask me about my mother and ask Kalbi about his." (Istia'ab, vol. 6, pg. 752)
Fatima's death was in 11 hijri. If she was 30 when she died, her birth date can be traced to about 5 years before the nabuwwah (prophethood). There are different hadiths about her age at death, for example, one says 24, another says over 18. But 30 years is most accurate. From this it is clear that Aisha was born when Muhammed was in his 40th year (apprx)
Okay! ASMA wasn't a prominent figure but FATIMA is. Isn't it?
Aisha’s memories of Mecca are not limited to this. In addition to this, the following memories refute the above:
a) Her saying that she had seen two people begging who had remained from the Year of the Elephant (the year in which Yemeni King Abraha sent an army of elephants to Mecca in order to destroy the Ka‘ba; the elephants were pelted with pebbles dropped on them by birds), which occurred 40 years before the prophetic mission and is accepted as a milestone for determining history, and her handing down this information with her sister Asma only – (Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/176; Haysami, Majma al-Zawaid, 3/285; Ibn Kathir, Tafsir, 4/553; Bidaya, 2/214; Qurtubi, Tafsir, 20/195).
b) Her describing in detail that during difficult times in Mecca, God’s Messenger had come to their house morning and evening and that her father, Abu Bakr, who could not endure this hardship, attempted to migrate to Abyssinia – (Bukhari, Salat, 70, Kafala, 5, Manaqib al-Ansar, 45, Adab, 64; Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 6/198)
c) Her stating that first it was mandatory to offer two cycles of obligatory prayer and that later it was changed to four cycles for residents, but that during military campaigns two cycles were performed – (Muslim, 3/463; Mu’jam al-Kabir, 2/285, 286; Mu’jam al-Awsat, 12/145; Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/243. )
d) In reports about the early days, there being statements like, “We heard that Isaf and Naila had committed a crime at the Ka‘ba and for this reason God turned them into stone as a man and woman from the Jurhum tribe – (Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/83).
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One of the things unanimously agreed upon in the modern Muslim world is that Aisha was 6 years old at the time of her nikah and 9 at the time she entered the Prophet's house. This belief is so unanimously agreed upon that any research on the topic is considered not only superfluous, but a type of blasphemy. The source of this belief is the myriad traditions found in Bukhari, Tabri, Tabqaat, etc. However, in these same books and ones like them are traditions that refute the above stated position and present a contradictory one that says Aisha's age upon marriage was much greater.
Before exploring this issue, two or three introductory facts must be understood. First, the verses in the Quran concerning marriage and divorce were revealed after Hijrah, and because Aisha's marriage is thought to have occurred near the time of Hijrah, it was obviously before these revelations. Also, during that time, there was a custom among the Arabs to confirm the engagement of two people before marriage. The Quran only mentions nikah, not engagement, thus, when it is said that Aisha's nikah was at age 6 and marriage at age 9, the nikah indicates the custom of confirming the engagement, and the latter refers to the consummation of the marriage. Thus, the real question is, When was Aisha's actual marriage? The second point is that the Arabs did not have a calendar. They did not know exact dates, but measured events against natural occurrences. For example, Naseema was born in the year of the big earthquake, and Omar was born a little before that. Another example: Muhammed was born in the year of Al-Fil. Furthermore, if the month is not given then a year's difference can be accrued. If someone is born in 1978 and the month is not known, there are two possibilities: if the month of birth was January, then the year of birth would be counted, but if it was December, one should start counting from 1979, leading to a year's difference. The final point is that the popularization of the calendar occurred during the khilafat of Omar, and its foundation was the Hijrah. Even though the Hijrah was in Rabi al-Awal, the whole year is counted from Muharram. Before the Hijrah, years were counted from the nabuwwah (prophethood) of Muhammed; when he was in his 40th year he received the first revelation. After this he stayed in Mecca for 13 years, then the Hijrah took place; in other words, Muhammed completed his 53rd year and began his 54th, then did Hijrah. If the first year of the nabuwwah is counted, then the Hijrah took place in the 15th year nabawwi, and if it is not counted, then it is 14th nabawwi. In Asad Al-Ghaba's collection of traditions (volume 4, page 377) it is reported: Fatima was about 5 years older than Aisha
Q: No Muslims noticed this for 1400 years until those nosy kaffirs start asking questions, eh?
A: Read the POST carefully many scholars disputed it much much earlier. Though not needed but I will present an analysis as well to support how things could go unnoticed by several careful observers until a question is raised.
Ali Sina in a POST on this page itself while answering a question has goofed up. Lets have a look : –
Question to ALI : According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Aisha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer: BY ALI on this page scroll up to check. (HE says AISHA WAS 5 YEARS OLDER BUT THE QUESTIONER SAID AISHA WAS 5 YEARS YOUNGER) READ as copied and pasted:
ALI SINA SAYS:
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Aisha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Aisha must have been 30 years younger than Muhammad. So at the time of her marriage when he was 54, she must have been 24 years old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadiths that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older than Aisha and died in 73 Hijra. In that case at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old. The truth is that she was 17 years old. The two hadiths presented by the same apologist contradict each other and all other hadiths because both of them are wrong.
****** NOW YOU WOULD SAY TO ERR IS HUMAN BUT WE NEED TO SEE WHAT WE ARE POSTING NEEDS TO BE FREE FROM ERRORS. SO WHY CANT THE SCHOLARS MAKE A MISTAKE. ***********
***********************************To err is human. *****************************
"If Asma truly was 10 years older than Aishah, and truly was 100 years old in 73 AH," Theirs no hard evidence Asma was 100 years old at that time. Who is Asma in islam? She is nobody, her precise birth year, age difference to her sister and age at her death are all unimportant.
"It is quite possible that the later authors, while quoting the figures, mistakenly omitted ‘ashar (ten in Arabic), thus changing 16 to 6 years old. "Funny no muslim noticed this mistake for 1400 years until those nosy kaffirs start asking awkard questions, eh?
"It must be accepted, then, that she could not possibly have been born in the fourth year of the Prophethood. She would hardly have realized the significance of the happening when she was a toddler of around one to two" If it was you, would you forget the man you believe is the messanger of god speaking the direct words of the creator the universe (as you believe)?
"if she was born in 605 she was 12, and far more likely to have dolls." I have never seen a 12 year old play with dolls in my life but i have seen plenty of little children (most of whom are less than half that age)do it.
"Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion." Why, if she was born in 605 as you claim, she would have been 5 years old just when muhammed first claimed prophet-hood. It seems unlikely she would not remember her parents at all before their conversion.
"At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call." Again why could not? Events like that you remember well even if you were only a few years old at the time.
Surat al-Qamar was one of the early chapters of the Qur’an. Aishah, despite the reference to her dolls, knew that a revelation had been granted. It must be accepted, then, that she
could not possibly have been born in the fourth year of the Prophethood. She would hardly have realized the significance of the happening when she was a toddler of around one to two
years old! It makes far more sense to assume that she was around 9-10 years old – i.e. born in 605 CE.
Furthermore, the habit of a girl to play with dolls should not be used as an indication that she is less than six years old. The age that young girls play most with dolls is as they approach
and enter puberty, especially in mock parenting games in which they are the ‘mothers’ and the dolls are their ‘babies’.
Surat al-Qamar has not been dated precisely, but if it was revealed some five years before the Hijrah (617 CE), then if Aishah was born in 614 she was only three years old. However,
if she was born in 605 she was 12, and far more likely to have dolls. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Bab al-Tafsir. This playing with dolls is used to indicate her extreme youth.)
Amongst the hadiths emanating from Aishah are a detailed account of the Miraj (the Ascension of the Holy Prophet to the Heavens), which took place in 619 CE, and of the Migration
from Makkah to Madinah in 622 CE. Her description is intelligent and mature, and not typical of an account as might have been given by a child of merely five years of age for the
former, and eight for the later – if she was born in 614.
The age of Aishah in relationship to the age of her sister Asma:
One theory involves the relationship of her age to that of her half-sister Asma. There are two fats which, if established, make it impossible for Aishah to have been only six at her nikah.
Firstly it is stated that Asma was ten years older than Aishah, and secondly that she died in 73 AH at the very advanced age of 100 years.
Abdur Rahman ibn Arabi al-Zinad (753 AH), for example, was an early historian noted for his knowledge of Arab lineage. He stated that Asma was older than her sister by ten years.
(Siyar-u-A‘la-an-Nubala’ by Muhammad Ali Lahori, p.229)
Ibn Kathir Dimashqui (1373 CE) stated that Asma breathed her last in 73 AH when she was 100 years old, and was older than her sister Aishah by ten years.(Al-Bidayay wa’n-
Nihayah’, published in Egypt, 8/34.)
The date was easily fixed in the mind as she died just a few days after her son Abdullah ibn Zubayr was killed in battle. Ibn Abd al-Barr (1071 CE) gives the same facts, though he
dates her death a few months (not days) after the death of Abdullah. (Al-Isti ‘ab fi Ma ‘rifah al-Ashab-Asab published in Egypt, 2/5-7.)
If Asma truly was 10 years older than Aishah, and truly was 100 years old in 73 AH, then Aishah would have been 90 had she lived to that year, and by simple subtraction of dates,
since 73 AH is the equivalent of 695 CE (622, the year of Hijrah plus 73), she must have been born in 605 CE.
Furthermore, if – as is claimed – Asma was born 27 years prior to the Hijrah, then Aishah must have been born 17 years prior to it. So, if the generally accepted tradition that Aishah
entered the Prophet’s home as his fully married wife in 2 AH/624 CE, she must have been 19 and not 9. (The date of her marriage as 2 AH was agreed by al-Nawawi, Ibn Kathir,
Qastallani and Badruddin al-Ayni and many others – ‘Tahdhib al-Asma wa-al Lighat’ by Al-Nawawi, ‘Al-Bidayah wa-al-Nihayay’ by Ibn Kathir, ‘Al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyah’ by Qastallani,
and ‘Umdah al-Qari’ by Badruddin al-Ayni.)
Some thought-provoking suggestions:
Some have suggested that Aishah was born in 610 CE, some 11 or 12 years before the Migration to Madinah in 622, which would mean that at the time of her full marriage she would
have been around 14 years old, and not 9. (‘Aishah’, compiled by Abbas Mahmud al-Aqqad and translated into Urdu by Shaykh Muhammad Ahmad Panipati, p.44.)
Some have suggested that she was born in 605 CE and thus when Muhammad attained the Prophethood she would have already been 5 years old, 17 in the year of Hijrah, and 19
when she took full marriage. (Sayyidah Aishah Siddiqah’ by Miyan Muhammad Said, p.5.)
Another suggestion is that at the time of her nikah Aishah was 16 years old (sittah ashra). It is quite possible that the later authors, while quoting the figures, mistakenly omitted ‘ashar
(ten in Arabic), thus changing 16 to 6 years old. (Ibid. p.8; ‘Muhammad the Prophet’ by Muhammad Ali Lahori, p.229.)
Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the
opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:
“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [Those four places in Sahih Bukhari are the following: Kitab-us-Salat, ch. ‘A
mosque which is in the way but does not inconvenience people’; Kitab-ul-Kafalat, ch. ‘Abu Bakr under the protection of a non-Muslim in the time of the Holy Prophet and his pact with
him’; Kitab Manaqib-ul-Ansar, ch. ‘Emigration of the Holy Prophet and his Companions to Madina’; and Kitab-ul-Adab, ch. ‘Should a person visit everyday, or morning and evening’].
This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew
well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet
received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she
was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their
conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents
accepted Islam.
In the footnotes of his Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari, entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, Maulana Muhammad Ali had pointed out reports of two events which show that Aisha
could not have been born later than the year of the Call. These are as follows.
1. The above mentioned statement by Aisha in Bukhari, about her earliest memory of her parents being that they were followers of Islam, begins with the following words in its version
in Bukhari’s Kitab-ul-Kafalat. We quote this from the English translation of Bukhari by M. Muhsin Khan:
“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited
us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.” [Muhsin Khan’s English translation of Bukhari, Volume 3,
Book 37, Number 494. See this link – http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagemen…
Commenting on this report, Maulana Muhammad Ali writes:
“This report sheds some light on the question of the age of Aisha. … The mention of the persecution of Muslims along with the emigration to Ethiopia clearly shows that this refers to
the fifth or the sixth year of the Call. … At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call.” [Fadl-ul-Bari, vol. 1, p. 501, footnote 1]
TOP PRIORITY QUESTION : Then why does Aisha say her age was 6 or 7 years in Bukhari.
We must blame the chain of narrators who played the game of "CHINESE WHISPER". The narrations we must understand were memorised and then reported back home of these
Muhadeeths. When a hadeeth says reported by Aisha it doenst mean its directly from her it means that it was told by her to someone close then to someone and so on and finally
reached the compiler of the book Imam Bukhari.Do you know that the Bukhari was collected and complied in 824 A.D approx. After a gap of almost 2 centuries. Aisha was already
dead way back.
It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when
she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.
“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of
age.”
“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he
consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” [Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and
the consummation of marriage with her’. For Muhsin Khan’s translation, see this link and go down to reports listed as Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236.]
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As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical
matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic
interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports
such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.
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"Their analyses of primary texts are in the form of lower textual criticism only with higher criticism deemed heretical." This is the problem they don`t analyse their text. Most of them have never even read the koran, they base their opinion of islam on what their iman, "scholar" or zakir naik says about it. How often you (as a christian) hear the muslims claim jesus and the biblical prophets were muslims? I guess a lot, this example proves muslims instead of going to the source and doing their own research, instead rely on someone else's opinion.
The deeper Muslim problem is that they do not have a knowledge-based culture. This extends to their educational institutions as well, so they do not have our western concepts of scholarly rigor and academic standards for the establishment of facts and theories. Their analyses of primary texts are in the form of lower textual criticism only with higher criticism deemed heretical. That together with the "God willing" attitude has stifled the advancement of scholarship and learning in Muslim society.
Check out my article about Aisha under women > Muhammad’s wives.
Dear Isaac/Marshallcolli,
Rest assured that i am reading your 9 points stated above my friend. To be honest, i don’t see why any of these nine points debunked mutawatir hadiths though. But i guess all theories are to be put on tests. I have seen something similar to yours written by some apologists.
And regarding age difference between Asma and Aisha, one theory says that according to Al Dhahabi in Siyar Alam Al Nubala, there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19. Based on this info, it calculates Aisha’s age at around nine years old, completely in accordance with the sahih hadiths where Aisha herself said she was nine years old.
Question 2. How old was Aisha when Muhammed died? PLease reply with Aheedth with narrations to support.
Answer- Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 see also Numbers 65 and 88)If you do the math she was 18 when mo died.
See also Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311.
IF WE DONT PAY HEED TO ARABS FOR NUMBERS THEN THE WHOLE ARGUMENT WOULD BE BASELESS ABOUT HER AGE. ITS THE ARABS TELLING US SHE WAS 6 YEARS WHEN MARRIED AND 12YEARS IN SOME OF THEM. DO YOU HAVE SOME OTHER SOURCE OF INFORMATION OTHER THAN ARAB'S OR NON-ISLAMIC TO PROVE HER AGE. I WOULD BE MORE THAN GLAD TO GIVE A SIGHT.
Being atheist isn't easy, when truth is the only objective.
Now coming back to the topic: My argument is not whether Muhammed was a pedophile or not but what was Aisha's age at her Neekha (marriage). Thats the reason I ain't posting in the topic Was Muhammad a Pedophile? but here which talks about her age and the fact assumed through it that he was a pedo. I would like you to furnish me narrations about Asma not being 100 years, as you know these hadeeth could be Daee'f or fabricated. We need to check it from the reliable source or from other non islamic source that you may have as you said that we cant rely upon Arabs for numbers.
Awaiting reply.
Islamic Text are definately the primary source for all the believers. But for me I need all kind evidences to come to a conclusion. All I am trying to say is that the Islamic Texts authenticating Aisha's age are misinterpreted and fabricated or mis-conveyed by the Scholars.
If you read the above article with 9 points carefully posted by me earlier, you would be on the same page with me.
The idea is not to prove whether Muhammed was a pedophile or not. The main objective is to know the age of Aisha. She was not anyway near to 6-9 years but more than 12 years. Again maybe Muhammed was a pedophile but Aisha was not the age mention in Islamic Texts.
I have gathered several Ahadeeth and Scholar's opinion from Sunni and Shia sects. They are highly contradictory and disputed amongst the muslim scholars. The main narrator reporting Aisha's age in Bukhari books named Hisham was reported to be insane and was short of memory. No great renowned companion like Huraira, Omar, Jabir etc have reported about her age. Only thing we know is frmo AIsha herself but till date many of her own ahadeeth is discarded and she is not said to have been a pious lady by SHIAs. Even Shia's are muslims.
So whom do we believe Shia or Sunni. Maybe she wanted to put an allegation on Muhammed that he was a pedophile. We also see that she was frustrated with him on several occasions. She even disobeyed him and conspired against him. So we cannot decide her age by her own reports. We have to analyze history and not fool ourselves with Isamic Texts.
I have read all the books considered Islamic Text with deep study of SHIA and SUNNI views. My idea is to punish the criminal of the offense but not alleged him of false offense. The opinion whether Muahammed was a pedophile or not could not dragged from the age of Aisha, because she wasn't 6-9 years of age. I am an atheist but I would never support false belief, God, notion, claims, de-faming someone etc, that proves I am an atheist. Please revert if you have any further doubts about her age.
I would repost all the details again if need be.
hmmm.
@Ali Sina : Another hadith says that Asma, sister of Aisha died at the age of 100. In reality she died at the age of 90.
Please mention the Ahadeeth tp support your view about Asma's age
Question 2. How old was Aisha when Muhammed died? PLease reply with Aheedth with narrations to support.
Don’t pay too much attention to numbers when you hear them from Arabs. They were not precise with numbers. Another hadith says that Asma, sister of Aisha died at the age of 100. In reality she died at the age of 90.
Dear Isaac/Marshallcolli,
Of course Wiki is not the primary source. Islamic texts are.
But Wiki is a summary of those texts for commoners to read. And it is subject to changes.
But you challenged Wiki for comparing “almost fifty” to “46”?
I’m lost here Man. What is it are you trying to say?
@Ali Sina · 1 day ago See this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
Wikipedia says: Aisha died in Medina at the age of 65 in 678 CE (58 AH) in the month of Ramadan. She was buried in the Jannat al-Baqi.
Wikipedia says: After Muhammad, Aisha lived on almost fifty years after the death of Muhammad. She had been his wife for a decade.
The above points are contradicting – a simple Calculation shows: – Muhammed died 632 A.D. Aisha's death at 678 A.D. i.e : 678-632 = 46. Now we know that 46 years cannot be called as almost 50 years in English language as mention in wikipedia link. On top of that we know that Wikepedia is not reliable enough to authenticate these delicate information.
See this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
Could you also tell at what age did Aisha die with narrators name.
1. Aisha was maried to Prophet Muhammed after 622A.D Hijri (consider her age to be 9years)
2. Aisha participated in Batte of Badr and Uhud (atleast 11-12 years now)
3. Badr – 624 A.D & Uhud – 625 A.D (she was plying of a swing, had her dolls with her, her mother grabs her and washes her face, her girlfriends use to come to play with her and hide from Muhammad. All these details show she was a little girl. Then how could you expect her to be in the battle. How could she serve water or shoulder responsiblities in battles.
4. Asma was 10 years older than Aisha (ref: Taqrib Al Tahzeeb and Al Bidayah wa'l~nihayah)
5. According to Ibn Hajjar Fatima was 5 years older than Aisha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when Muhammed was 35 years old.
6. At Tabari in his book mentions that Abu Bakr reported taht all his 4 children were born in "Jahiliyaah"
7. Most of the hadith about Aisha's age are collected from Hisham ibn 'urwah on the authority of his father.
8. Tehzib ul~tehzib, a man known for prophetic narrations has reported. According to Yaqub ibn Shaibah "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those reported from people of Iraq. It further say Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through the people of Iraq.(Vol 11, pg 48- 51).
9. Mizanu'l~ai'tidal, another book on the narrators of the prophetic tradtions report say when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (Vol 4, pg 301-302).
So we cannot rely upon the narrations reported by him (Sahi or Hasa atleast) about the age of Aisha.
Awaiting reply.
Hmmm, Interesting to know. One of the muslim friend told me all this. Could you also give me the name of the narrator of these Hadiths please.
Aisha was not five years younger than Fatima. No hadith says such thing. We have a dozen of hadiths reported by Aisha herself saying she was six when Muhammad married her and nine when he consummated the marriage. These hadiths have too many details that preclude the possibility of the being error, such as she was plying of a swing, had her dolls with her, her mother grabs her and washes her face, her girlfriends use to come to play with her and hide from Muhammad. All these detains show she was a little girl.
Aisha was not born in “Jahiliyah” (although jahiliyah started with Islam). In one hadith Aisha says she was born when both her parents were Muslim.
Asma died at the age of 90. People thought she was 100 because to younger people, old people look much older than they actually are. They just made a mistake. It’s a genuine mistake.
Mr. ALI SINA please throw some light on these:
Logical & Mathematical Proof of Aisha's age
1. The age of Prophet Mohammed was 35 years when Fatima (daughter from Khadija – first wife) was born.
2. Aisha was 5 years younger than Fatima.
3. Prophet Muhammed married Aisha at the age of 52.
4. Faitma would then be 17 years old.
5. Aisha should be 12 years old.
6. Aisha was born in Jahhiliyyah (age of ignorance), that could be any where before 610A.D
7. Prophet Muhammed was 52 years old when married her. Thus Aisha should be atleast 12 years Old.
8. Asma (elder sister of Aisha) was 10 years older than Aisha.
9. Asma died in 73 hijri at the age of 100 years. In this case she could be 27 or 28 years old during the first Hijri. Thus Aisha must be 17 or 18 years.
Notice that no 12-year-olds or 13-year olds are getting married in those states. The residents of those states generally find the idea out of line because of their belief systems, and it isn't done. Let me know if you find a case of it happening, and what year it was from.
Frankly, those laws should be repealed because of Muslim immigration.
See that? Mix match game is a trend nowadays. But what do you expect for a copy paste user?
Same to you. That's it? Read this site again including its comments.
is that it? huh?
Yeah Sanada,
I see what you mean about muslim repetitions. Same ‘ol copy-paste propaganda.
Dear Marshallcolli,
I strongly urge you to read around this site first. I believe Ali Sina has addressed this particular issue more than once already.
Or if you want to be more involved in a discussion about it, go here:
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=6…
It is exactly what you have been suggesting, only more thorough.
Prepare to meet the truth…
Juste, see what I mean? Muslims are in love with repetition.
Historical Fact 3. Abu Bakr’s marriage to Umm Ruman:
Abu Bakr married Umm Ruman when he was 28. So, if we make the natural assumption that their children Abdur Rahman and Aishah were born in the first 4-5 years of their marriage (assuming that she did not use birth control and breastfed her children), then it would mean that Abu Bakr would most likely have been around 32-33 years old when Aishah was born. The Prophet is known to have been two years older than Abu Bakr, so at this time, he would have been 34-35.
Now, since we know that the Prophethood was bestowed upon him in his 40th year, it once again adds up to the conclusion that Aishah must have been born 5-6 years prior to the Prophethood, i.e. in c 605 CE, and that would make her 19 and not 9 a the time of her marriage.
Historical Fact 2. Abu Bakr’s children were born before the advent of Islam:
Ibn Jarir at-Tabari, an eminent historian of the early era, stated:
‘Abu Bakr married two women in the pre-Islamic era, who gave birth to four children. Abdullah and Asma were by Qatilah, while Abdur Rahman and Aishah were by Umm Ruman bint Amir. All these children were born before the advent of Islam’.10
The advent of Islam was 610 CE; so, if Aishah was born before that, then she must have been at the very least 12 years of age in the year of Hijrah, and at least 14 at the time of her marriage in 2 AH (624 CE).
Moreover, it is not stated that Aishah was born just immediately before the advent of Islam. Tabari talks of her birth as being ‘during the days of ignorance (jahiliyah)’, which seems to suggest that it was not right at the end of that period in history. So, if Aishah was born as much as a year before the end of Ignorance, then it is more likely that she was 15 at the time of her marriage.
—————————-
10. ‘Tarikh al-Ummam wa al-Muluk’ (Egypt) Vol IV. pp9-15
——Now go wake Imam Bukhari up and tell him to rectify his collection of Sahih Hadith that says Aisha was 6 when married, and 9 when Muhammad did it to her.——-There are mistakes in the age which has been reported as has been proven by other hadiths.
Historical Fact 1. The age of Aishah in relationship to the age of her sister Asma:
One theory involves the relationship of her age to that of her half-sister Asma. There are two fats which, if established, make it impossible for Aishah to have been only six at her nikah. Firstly it is stated that Asma was ten years older than Aishah, and secondly that she died in 73 AH at the very advanced age of 100 years.
Abdur Rahman ibn Arabi al-Zinad (753 AH), for example, was an early historian noted for his knowledge of Arab lineage. He stated that Asma was older than her sister by ten years.6
Ibn Kathir Dimashqui (1373 CE) stated that Asma breathed her last in 73 AH when she was 100 years old, and was older than her sister Aishah by ten years.7
The date was easily fixed in the mind as she died just a few days after her son Abdullah ibn Zubayr was killed in battle. Ibn Abd al-Barr (1071 CE) gives the same facts, though he dates her death a few months (not days) after the death of Abdullah.8
If Asma truly was 10 years older than Aishah, and truly was 100 years old in 73 AH, then Aishah would have been 90 had she lived to that year, and by simple subtraction of dates, since 73 AH is the equivalent of 695 CE (622, the year of Hijrah plus 73), she must have been born in 605 CE.
Furthermore, if – as is claimed – Asma was born 27 years prior to the Hijrah, then Aishah must have been born 17 years prior to it. So, if the generally accepted tradition that Aishah entered the Prophet’s home as his fully married wife in 2 AH/624 CE, she must have been 19 and not 9.9
—————————-
6. ‘Siyar-u-A‘la-an-Nubala’ by Muhammad Ali Lahori, p.229)
7. Al-Bidayay wa’n-Nihayah’, published in Egypt, 8/34.
8. ‘Al-Isti ‘ab fi Ma ‘rifah al-Ashab-Asab published in Egypt, 2/5-7.
9. The date of her marriage as 2 AH was agreed by al-Nawawi, Ibn Kathir, Qastallani and Badruddin al-Ayni and many others – ‘Tahdhib al-Asma wa-al Lighat’ by Al-Nawawi, ‘Al-Bidayah wa-al-Nihayay’ by Ibn Kathir, ‘Al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyah’ by Qastallani, and ‘Umdah al-Qari’ by Badruddin al-Ayni.
Marshallcolli,
You are absolutely right!
Now go wake Imam Bukhari up and tell him to rectify his collection of Sahih Hadith that says Aisha was 6 when married, and 9 when Muhammad did it to her.
Now go read around the site and find out why your claim stinks.
PS: it would make more sense if you include a little thing call evidence to back up your claim. Otherwise it’s a propaganda.
nikah of Aishah to the Prophet of Islam took place when she was around 16-17 years old, and not 6; and her marriage was solemnized when she was 19 and not 9. The Prophet died when she was 28, not 18;
Right! More appropriate imagery for [what is supposed to be] a discussion.
It's more like volley ball against dodge ball.
That's the trouble. You're playing basketball and she's playing dodge ball!
@to all
Take this: http://islamhinduism.com/misconceptions/71-madam-…
Lets see who bust them first. Good luck.
See the following two examples; فَسَقَطَ فِي نَفْسِي مِنْ التَّكْذِيبِ وَلَا إِذْ كُنْتُ فِي الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ فَلَمَّا رَأَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مَا قَدْ غَشِيَنِي ضَرَبَ فِي صَدْرِي فَفِضْتُ عَرَقًا وَكَأَنَّمَا أَنْظُرُ إِلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ فَرَقًا “Ubbay said: There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, saw how I was affected, was affected (by a wrong idea), he struck my chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at Allah in fear.”(Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1356) Clearly the Prophet, may Allah bless him, did it to ward off the evil thoughts that occurred in the mind of Ubayy, may Allah be pleased with him. Another narration goes as; أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ضرب صدر عمر بن الخطاب بيده حين أسلم ثلاث مرات وهو يقول : « اللهم أخرج ما في صدره من غل وأبدله إيمانا “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, hit the chest of Umar bin Khattab with his hand three times when he embraced Islam and he said, ‘O Allah remove the malice from his heart and replace it with faith.’” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, Hadith 4492. Hakim authenticated it) Now obviously, his reversion to Islam was a great event and it is inconceivable that Prophet, may Allah bless him, would ‘beat’ him then. Even though the narration uses the word ‘dharab’ meaning ‘hit/strike’ no reasonable person that Holy Prophet, may Allah bless him, beat him. And clearly the context proves the Prophet did it to for the same reason as in the example above and in the Hadith in question. Did Sayyidah Aisha think she was beaten? If someone is still obstinate on his erroneous and dishonest assertion or is still confused, let us read as to what ‘Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, herself think. In the same compendium of Hadith, Sahih Muslim, there is a narration; عَنْ عَائِشَةَ قَالَتْ مَا ضَرَبَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ شَيْئًا قَطُّ بِيَدِهِ وَلَا امْرَأَةً وَلَا خَادِمًا إِلَّا أَنْ يُجَاهِدَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ “Aisha reported that Allah's Messenger, may Allah bless him, never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah …” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 4296) One can see, Sayyidah Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, is saying that Prophet, may Allah bless him, never beat any woman or a servant. After such a clear testimony from her, is it anything but intellectual dishonesty to assert to the contrary? Indeed Allah knows the best!
"
Can you debunk this apologetic claim?
Thanks,
Tushar
The wording used: Consider the second highlight in the narration. This is the wording they seek evidence with. Now the Arabic wording for this is; فَلَهَدَنِي فِي صَدْرِي لَهْدَةً أَوْجَعَتْنِي “He struck (lahad) me on the chest which caused me pain.” Now for the meaning of the word, ‘lahad’, let’s refer to Lane’s lexicon. He writes; Edward William Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon p. 2676 So it simply means, ‘to push.’ Therefore the most appropriate translation ought to be, ““He pushed me [hard] on the chest which caused me pain.” The context: Although the narration is self explanatory but usually people miss the parts which explain the thing. 1- The Prophet, may Allah bless him, was with ‘Aisha, may Allah bless her that night. Archangel Gabriel came to him and asked to him to move to Baqi’ graveyard. 2- The Prophet, may Allah bless him, went out of the bed and moved to Baqi’. 3- ‘Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, curious as to where he had done, followed him and once he turned back she hastened before him and thus was out of breath. 4- When ‘Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, on being questioned told the Prophet, may Allah bless him, the whole story, he pushed her hard on her chest. 5- Although this pressing of the chest caused ‘Aisha, may Allah bless her, some pain but it was not intended as beating rather, it was only to ward off the wrong thought that had come to her heart. This is clear from the words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him; “Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?” i.e. Allah will ask his Messenger to spend the night of Aisha’, may Allah bless turn, with some other wife. Holy Prophet used to do it to ward off wrong thoughts: There are more reports showing that Holy Prophet, may Allah bless him, used to do the same pushing and striking on chest to ward off wrong thoughts.
Dear Ali Sina,
While debating with Answering Christianity on facebook about Muhammad beating Aisha, he replied to that in this way:
"
Let us analyze the actual narration, they use and see what it really implies. The narration they use comes from Sahih Muslim and it goes as; Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.
Err, you are missing my point. To be called a pedophile, one is enough, er, two, in this case. The definition of pedophile is someone who got sexually attracted (not thirsty/ addicted) to children (not many many children), period. If he had only 1, 2 or 3, he was still pedophile. If he desired adult too he would still a pedophile. Beside, he did get rejected by this girl (er, she's not Spanish, you know) according to the narration so you can keep your assumption. If you want to play assumption then I can think of sexual slavery that Muhammad had legalized. He got that from there.
Doc, what's the name for an adult man like Muhammad who got sexually aroused with children? Normal desire? Do you have this too? What's the difference between you and him that causes both of you to be called normal in natural sense?
Homosexual is someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex, whether the person marries 1, 2, or 3 of his/her kind, It doesn't matter. Beside, personal emotion can affect them too. Yeah, it's natural for human to get addicted to something but when you have what you'd desired (your highest desire), the chance of wanting more is not that high.
Ok, let's imagine a person named EJ enjoyed homosexual relationship and he had only one or two mates in his life. Then another person named H came and told people that EJ was not gay because he only had 2 (known) guys in his life (who knows about the rest?). H claimed that when humans got this disorder they would seek their own kind forever like using drugs. The problem is, will people listen to you?
Not enough? Imagine person A lived in society that didn't allow slapping people's face without reason but A had this habit of slapping anyone he met. What would he do? He would target few persons to be slapped. The authority wouldn't allow this, so he had to play hide and seek, kept changing his targets so that his slapping desire kept being fulfilled. Now, there is person B who was a very important person, he had the power to make law and lived in society where people didn't care about the slapping disorder. What would he do? He would pick few targets and owned them to satisfy his desire. With this, he wouldn't need to constantly seek or change targets.
Attention, to all pedophiles on this earth, please target only few children and you'll get free from this label.
Ok. So lets assume he did get rejected from this girl from juan. Why hadnt he married any other girl. He had no other small bride other than ayesha. Uve not understood my point, if he was a cultist, infact cult leader, and could not be questioned about his motives, then why not marry young children in abundance? A pedophile with freedom would need variety no? However muhammad did no such thing. The fact is he wasnt pedophile. Its in the human nature that once u like something, u get addicted, and that especially the case for disorders, and addiction leads to the want for more and different. But muhammad did NO such thing.
Why should he? He had made it clear in his challenge page.
To be called a pedophile, one must has interest in children at least once and being interested in adult doesn't erase this diagnosis. Muhammad was also recorded taking interest into another kid from Jaun but was rejected. The worse part is, he had regulated child marriage in the Quran.
You a muslim Hamza?
What more bloody proof you want about Muhammad and Ayesha’s sex life when you got Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim exactly what they are supposed to be. “SAHIH”.
Please do better next time by not insulting our inteligence with typically idiotic muslim statement.
Oh,and do bother to reply, Mr. sina.
What i don't understand is the fact that, if he really WAS a pedophile, why not marry more very young children, huh? You say, that everyone followed him in madness etc. why, did he not marry more children? It certainly doesn't seem difficult for him, now did it? He was NOT a pedophile. Where is the bloody proof that he actually had physical relations when she was really small. Why even marry old women. At the time no-one would've questioned him, so why consider maure women, and not every single 10 year old? Because, the fact is, he was not a pedophile.
Irrelevant and 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. Wow, how many times I've typed this word called "irrelevant"? Don't dodge the ball kid, bounce it.
This coward won't stand a chance if she start it. This auntie will keep using "general" argument without touching the issue.
Just read my posts on indo site and here about leader and you may talk, kid. Why do you keep posting irrelevant things, eh?
@ Just read about the world leaders first, from the ancient ages to this day, and you may talk. 🙂
@Abdullah ihsan
We are charging Muhammad with hideous crimes against humanity like highway robbery, loot, rape, lechery, pedophilia, assassination, mass murder, slavery, aggressive wars and also blasphemy against God. But you conveniently keep silence and talk about irrelevant topics. I understand why you are running away from the issue at hand.
😀
@ Arya Anand
"Your question is out of topic. You tell me if you are okay with Muhammad's crimes against humanity and still believe in this monster and worship him."
Why don't you enrich yourself first with more knowledge about world leaders. You can comment after that. 🙂
Read about your ancient kings. 🙂
@Abdullah ihsan
Your question is out of topic. You tell me if you are okay with Muhammad's crimes against humanity and still believe in this monster and worship him.
Scientists say "wow" for the nature and universe but not "wow" for Islam. When they think about Islam they'll say "rubbish" and "pseudoscience". Forgetting my challenge, aren't you? You can't conclude before proving anything, kid.
Done that in indo site. Your excuse of "bravery" had been refuted and your answer is not an answer, it's irrelevant and cowardice in every sense. I know, I know, you'll just deny it, but kid, go back to indo site coz the my post still stays untouched. Don't keep shooting the messenger, read the message coz it doesn't get affected by the messenger.
I've done that in indo site. Go back there.
Kid, being a leader doesn’t mean being right, ok. There are so many evil leaders that seek to destroy other groups outside their packs and it doesn’t take a leader to judge other leaders. A mere peasant could know that Hitler was an evil leader. Hey, even pirates have their leaders.
Let’s reverse it. Muhammad was attacking Quraish’s way of life and religion. He mocked and criticized Quraish leaders just because they were polytheists. Now, if I used your silly argument I would say, “Muhammad was no leader at that time, he didn’t have the right or knowledge to criticize Quraish leaders”. But I wouldn’t do it coz I am not you, remember? It would be an insult to anyone’s intelligence if I did that.
When you look at Muhammad you’ll get a general leader, not a nation leader coz at first he had only lead several people to enter his religion. Being a general leader, he had actually committed “evil” deeds by insulting other religions and acted selfishly by refusing all negotiations by peaceful oriented people. Who’s the villain here? Who’s the center of the problem here? Who’d started the war? Muhammad was. Being the general leader, Muhammad had already shown unfair, selfish attitude, ambition, anger, and attacking stance even when he was weak. What would happen if he had bigger than that? What would happen when he had become a leader of an army? Conquest was inevitable.
His misogynistic nature, hate, anger, selfish idealism, self righteousness, personal experience, personal appeasement and ignorance about his surrounding had shaped him even before he became the leader of society. From all of these he created Islam and its rule and you can find many discriminative, imperfect, silly, one sided and barbaric laws within Islamic society. Did Muhammad care about personal happiness? No, he didn’t coz he thought about a society that reflected his own mind, desire, and standard. The judgment of right or wrong came from him, no matter how false or silly it was it would be valid for all time to all societies. Did he seek world domination? Yes, he did.
You protested about him as a leader which you had assumed for having “goodness” in it but you forgot about the individual feeling outside his mind (minus god’s threat of course) and other groups who didn’t like his method and deeds. Muhammad had made too many raids in his lifetime and none of it was defensive in nature. He was good to the extent that everything was profitable for his own greedy followers (read: men) who desired war booties, slaves and heavenly rewards. To the outsider’s view, he was an evil leader who wanted to dominate the world and froze the time with his barbaric standard. What had differentiated him from other evil leaders on this earth? It’s his “immortality” and “godly” law which defy others’ existence. This makes him more dangerous than any other leaders.
Let’s say there is a group of people who want to eat something but doesn’t know where to go. One of them called M speaks actively and proposes a few places. The others listen and discuss it within themselves. Another person called P speaks out and points out one location including its benefit. The others agree with P and decide to go there according to P’s words. Now, who’s the leader here?
Back to Sina, he created sites that criticizing Islam and there were many people who enter his sites and expressed their opinions. He created topics, accusations, proofs, references, debates, etc and made people entered his domain to do all of this. Tell me, did this act called “leading”? Yes or no?
Kid, you can’t debunk a specific allegation and proof with your general statement, you have to go straight to the issue. We don’t play assumption and belief here coz it’s only a plaything of a stiff necked believer.
Double posting, auntie. You are boring.
Irrelevant auntie.
You wrote, "This probably makes no sense to people who love this wordly lives. After all, I just want to remind you before you get old to realize it"
Relax kid. I already knew your god is a fake. I've posted plenty of reasons and proof about that but you didn't dare to discuss it. Let's see, when I'm old I'll think about "god" but hey, I'll realize in an instance that Allah is man made. So, what will I do? All of these is human perception, you know.
Dear kid Abdul, I ask you for the third times now. What is the conclusion for all of these accusations? Don’t forget that I am talking about topic and proof here. I see no proof from you either. You don’t just make selfish accusation based on your emotion but you have to bring proof here and if you fail to do all of these then your complaint will be debunked automatically. How can you prove Islam if you can’t prove trivial things such as this, eh?
Let me dissect your mistake again. I’ve already told you that you have only one perspective, right? And that’s proven, right? Is it right or right? Now, you’ve done it again here. You accused me for being Sina’s slave while a sane and normal reasoning would produce negative result on my posts. I’ve different style, approach, reasoning, will, opinion, etc but you as the slave (of Allah) couldn’t see beyond slavery coz just like before, a thief thinks that others are thieves too. This is the result of chronic slavery of Islamic mind.
Yet, after thinking so hard with your brain, you only produced the second accusation, I felt smarter than Sina. Kiddo, you would be a bad mind reading magician if you kept this up so don’t do this again, ok. In order to know who’s smarter, you have to put mine and his which talk about the same topic side by side and analyze it carefully. Could you do that? Could you even find that? Did I ever show an indication that I’m more knowledgeable than him? Did you even bring proof? No, this is like Islam, you didn’t bring any proof or argument, you only brought your feeling. For your information, I came here and debunked muslims coz Islam is a violent and supremacist religion which seeks to rule the world, no matter what medium or way I used. I slash everything with fact and I don’t see who’s who and who’s doing what coz it’s irrelevant. Truth doesn’t get affected by these silly things.
What I’ve done is done by others too. You can take your pick, John K, Agracean, Just Dan, lonelyloner, etc (if you ever bother to read and not getting emotionally distracted by me alone). This is comment section and it’s free for all, no one protest this, not even muslims except one tiny little indo muslim kid with huge ego to satisfy. I’d (real) discussion for a while with livingsunnah but she/he didn’t protest it, livingsunnah has bigger balls than you, kid.
I see you borrowed my style and method. Oh, dear, you don’t need to admire me that far because with different user you’ll get different result, no matter what style you used. I am not you and you are not me. That fact cannot be changed.
Correction? No kid, it's called believing.
Do you know that you have shot your own foot here? What's the matter, afraid auntie? You keep pushing people to read Islam but don't dare to read the other side, eh? Yup, it's different and it's too long to be put in articles.
@ sina
What is so special about your book? Is it in anyway different from your articles here?
We will read your book, but we will do that after you appear in public to levy your charges on Rasulullah openly; maybe in an internationally broadcasted debate with an Islamic scholar? For us, one's credibility has to be authenticated before he claims to be good at something. Like I said, talking is always easy, and so is judging. You have spent so much time on those two activities. But given your hidden identity, how do we know what sort of guy you are. We need to know who you really are and how you live your life.
The point is, sina. It is obvious that the man you are charging was a very brave and steadfast person. If you want to charge him, can you at least be as brave as him?
@ Arya Anand
Hi may I know you are…….? Or are you too an atheist?
Muhammad stared war on unbelievers and was the aggressor. He raided town after town and killed innocent men, looted their properties, raped their women before enslaving them and their children and was also enagaged in slave trade and highway robbery. He did all these crimes just because they refused to believe in him as a prophet. Muhammad lived as a parasite on others' wealth and did not engage in productive activities. He was not even a decent human being leave alone a prophet.
You must read my book. Obviously you don’t understand Muhammad.
Muhammad was very convinced of his mission. But that conviction was caused by his insanity. He did not put his life in any danger. He became a bandit and killed others. At no time he put his life in danger. He put other people’s life in danger including his befooled followers. Read my book and the whole charade of Islam becomes crystal clear to you.
My conviction is based on knowledge not no my halucination. I prove everything I say with quotes from Muhammad and his biography. What evidence Muhammad gave other than believe or die, believe or go to hell?
@ sina
When one becomes so convinced about his thought, he will do whatever it takes to convey it to public especially when such thought is deemed useful for the society for which he has much concerns.
Despite enmity from his contemporaries, Rasulullah stepped out his house to deliver the messages he received from Allah for he was sure that it was the truth he was conveying. He gladly put his life at stake and further carried out his tasks successfully with undisputed bravery and persistence.
Look what you are doing now.
In comparison to Rasulullah’s method of preaching Islam, the way you're levying charges against him is somewhat laughable. You are hiding 🙂 …….. let this fact be the judge for your allegations.
a bit of correction:
Muslims are slaves of the only Creator of the earth, the universe and others that are beyond human's capability to imagine. Believing the unseen is part of our eeman as we understand that people come and go to this world to stay for a relatively short period. Even today's scientist keep saying 'wow' every time a new mystery is revealed. Therefore, we are pursuing our hereafter future in accordance with the guidance in the Holy Quran as we believe in it. This probably makes no sense to people who love this wordly lives. After all, I just want to remind you before you get old to realize it.
May you live forever, miss 🙂
Err, auntie. You have committed another fallacy here. Do I need to explain it? I’m afraid you’ll just protest me again like a kid. I’ll just give you a clue: “leader, its meaning, relevancy, and application”. Happy thinking, kid coz no educated people will take this seriously. One more, stop generalize things and get to the issue here. There are plenty discussions about Muhammad's wars and you can go there.
Err, I've done that in indo site, so go back in there coz it's bad jumping here and there. Saudi as a society still conform original Islam and we are talking about original Islam all this long.
Hah? Posting something means starting a discussion? No kid, it's called posting your opinion. Until the other side responds there will be no discussion and if that posts was a silly one or a repetition then Sina didn''t need to respond to it. I remind you again that no one here needs permission to talk to someone, it's a free ride and a battlefield, kid.
About "attacking". Quote my words which attacked him coz talking without proof is easy. I merely asked confirmation not attacking, unless stating fact is an attack in your dictionary. Come one auntie, stop shooting the messenger, will you. You are running away from any topic here.
PS: there is no potential debate in here if you ever know anything about Islam at all. Elias Abdullah even refused it from the very start. did you even notice it or was it your limited knowledge?
What's the conclusion from all these? Is it that I can defeat anyone here and no muslims can refute me? that's doesn't change you know, even with your silly protest.
Bumping? Let's see:
1. About Marwan, he came here after he read Sina’s article and he said, “let us have a little chat”. Now, does a chat mean a debate? Did Sina ever talk to him? Was there even a dialog? This fact has debunked your accusation about “discussion”.
Also, look at his own sentence which said, “You put Aisha as unaware, Zawadi's argument was that she was aware, a 9-years old child is aware of the world and what is around him/her”. What kind of scholar who depend his argument on someone else, not to mention that Zawadi and his co worker Umar are not scholars.
In the end, there was no dialog in the first place and he was not a scholar, therefore I never ever jumped in into anything. Actually, Marwan was follower of Zawadi if you ever bother to read his writings.
2. About Elias Abdullah, this guy is an obvious answer to your childish complaint if you ever read his words, “What is the purpose in debating a hate-filled liar”. This fact has already debunked your accusation too. Now, what did I do to this child, Elias? I merely asked confirmation for his cowardly act on deleting comments and his reason for not debating Sina. Did that mean “jumping into discussion”? If that’s your conclusion then other posters had jumped on him too but seriously, only one person had said that in here. That’ll sum up everything.
Is he a scholar? Obviously not coz he said, “I have cited Islamic traditions and peer-reviewed scholarly resources that completely debunk your claims”. Auntie, a scholar wouldn’t say this kind of sentence. He even wrote childish words such as, “You provide nothing but smug assertion”. Either he didn’t have a mirror at that time or he was illogical person.
He also quoted, “I guarantee a house in Paradise for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right” and gave irrelevant Surah. Catch something, auntie?
In the end, again there was no dialog in the first place and he was not a scholar, therefore I never jumped in into anything.
Next time please really read something coz your posts are nothing more than childish complaint with no basis. My turn, give me just one example about me jumping into the middle of discussion/debate between Sina and scholar. There are 3 things to prove here,
1. There was indeed a debate, two ways discussion, not merely posting something.
2. There was indeed a scholar.
3. There was indeed a middle jump in, give me the topic.
Let me give you a clue to your protest here, it’s called “one selfish perspective”. If mine is called bumping then everyone here is bumping anyone.
I think I just have a little bit of different reasoning than him and you know, Sina doesn't consider comment section too seriously. Mind you that slave doesn't have free will and my writing reflects my own will. On the contrary, muslims are slaves of Islam that's why their mindset is similar to each other.
@ sanada
It's good to hear you're not his slave. I almost thought you were. Anyone reading your 'bumping' articles with more points than that which sina himself made in his arguments would think that either you are his slave or you consider yourself smarter than him. But, thanks for clarifying, though.
@ sina
I am still hoping to see a scholar who will spend his valuable time debating with you in this comment section. But while waiting, I have a few words for you:
Unless you are a leader of your peoples, you are likely to have false impression about Rasulullah's acts on his wars. Ask any leader who has been involved in a war so it will probably help you have a different point of view. If such a leader still has what you call humanity, ask him how tough it is for him to send people to a battle just to get killed. Nonetheless, this horrible thing called war happened, and it is still happening. There are too many examples to mention in this aspect starting from the ancient times to this day. And for a good leader, no matter how much he dislikes blood shedding, when faced with an aggression towards his peoples, it will be his inevitable task to do something before, during, and after the expected battle. Don’t you think?
Do you deny the needed functions of leaders? Have you seen any society in the absence of a leader?
Talking is easy, sina. Like most others, you are playing safe. But before you experience any tough decision on how to defend your peoples against an aggression, the whole articles of yours are practically nonsense as you are no compatible to Rasulullah because he too is a leader. You never even tried to picture yourself standing in a leader’s shoes. Maybe in your ‘peaceful’ mind, you have a high hallucination that people would all behave alike towards peace. You are ignoring the presence of stubborn, cunning, greedy and arrogant people who wouldn’t hesitate killing a mass of other people for their greed and arrogances. In fact, these people do exist. It is also by Allah’s will. But Allah wants these people to be stopped, either by words or by acts.
No good human being likes wars. Neither did Rasulullah.
But Rasulullah has shown a perfect model of how a leader deals with aggressions towards his believers with his treaty, strictness, and in some winning situation, with his mercy. His policies in regards to battles have proven to be the most impressing and noble ones overtime.
You are no leader sina, and by that I mean to say that you are in no capacity to talk anything about a leader’s task and mindsets especially that of Rasulullah. Leader is a scarce kind of people, and it is only with Allah’s guidance that a leader can use all of his potentials to perform good leadership in all aspects of humanity.
@ sanada
You said:
"In the end auntie, what happens to the discussion? Are you so afraid of me and chose to attack me like this? Don't shoot the messenger, kid. The clue is "comment section is free for all", it's like any other internet forum unless you create a special forum only for you and your nemesis."
and:
"Marwan or Elias auntie, ops, I mean Abdullah didn't engage discussion with Sina, they only posted their opinions, so technically, I never jumped in the middle and everyone do that in here.
Bring me an example of Sina vs scholar (involved in an Islamic dialog, yes I mean, a real dialog) and there was me, jumping into the middle of conversation."
Now I am asking borrowing your typical technique:
Is in your dictionary asking = attacking?
I don't have to point where you did interfere. Look for your self in the other article when Marwan was just starting a little chat with sina. Anybody else would wait to see what sina would come up with to counter Marwan's arguments. Those with logic would see that the two were about to start some conversations. But all of the sudden your words showed up with so many 'you wrote essays' responding to Marwan like he had asked you instead. Like I said, one or two paragraph comment is tolerable and that shows that the potential debate does draw reader's attention, but your wrote there like you were sina himself. You didn't notice that? That's why I asked you if you were his slave.
I did not say you were. I am asking you: are you?
Marwan or Elias auntie, ops, I mean Abdullah didn't engage discussion with Sina, they only posted their opinions, so technically, I never jumped in the middle and everyone do that in here.
Bring me an example of Sina vs scholar (involved in an Islamic dialog, yes I mean, a real dialog) and there was me, jumping into the middle of conversation.
In the end auntie, what happens to the discussion? Are you so afraid of me and chose to attack me like this? Don't shoot the messenger, kid. The clue is "comment section is free for all", it's like any other internet forum unless you create a special forum only for you and your nemesis.
Nope, they are not scholars. Both of them don't need permission to talk to Sina and in the past I'd been jumped many times by muslims and I don't protest like a kid. The discussion will be more progressive on that way. The more the merrier.
Like I told you, this comment section is free ride, anyone can comment what they like and only a loser protest over silly and irrelevant things. Am I his slave? Not a chance since I don't agree with him 100% as I've pointed out.
Dude, I don't think scholar will use comment section to do that. They have their own pride, you know.
@ sina
Your words serve as an invitation already. I hope now that there is still an Islamic scholar who reads them and accepts the challenge. But when it happens, let us all see your debate with him without interferences.
Invite a scholar and I will debate with him.
@ sanada
"Fact 1: Sina always debates scholar through emails then he publishes it, not in comment section. There is no scholar in comment section. "
Elias Abdullah and Marwan are two of them. Look for yourself what you did when Marwan was starting to have a little chat with sina… how many 'you wrote' essays had you 'produced' before sina even said a word?
"Fact 2: Comment section is a free ride, you don’t ask permission to talk to Sina and so do I to you."
It's true, I never mind that. But maybe what impartial non-believing readers want to see in this site is an unseparated debate between him and a reputable scholar to see how it goes without having to see you volunteering to speak for him in the middle. Let them alone for just a while will you? If you really think that sina is good enough to break those scholar arguments.
Are you his slave?
Err, auntie, you are double posting again and gave irrelevant answer. Please stay to the topic, will you? Look again what I was talking about (imperial system defeated caliphate). Saudi is not againts Islam in the context of society and its the ideal society in Islam. If you want the king thingy, you should go back to indo site.
Err, which argument of his that is weak? So far it is you who is weak and since you run from all my challenges and so do other muslims here, that will make me…what? undisputed? Not bad, kiddo.
If he's not speechless then he is not then since all scholars fail to prove Islam so far.
You wrote, “I've found in this site that you would jump in the middle of a debate between sina and an Islamic scholar with your typically long argument”
Auntie, please stop your stupidity, it’s getting worse. Why?
Fact 1: Sina always debates scholar through emails then he publishes it, not in comment section. There is no scholar in comment section.
Fact 2: Comment section is a free ride, you don’t ask permission to talk to Sina and so do I to you.
Udah ngerti, dul?
@ sanada
Well, I don't think that any knowledgeable Islamic scholar would consider Saudi's Kingdom as an acceptable way of ruling the Ummah. It is obviously against the caliphate system wherein every Muslim stands equally before the Laws of Allah. If you are so well-informed about Islam, you must have noticed that the son of Umar bin Khattab was punished as he was found guilty by only drinking. Even doubled for he was the Leader's son who was supposed to be a lot more familiar with his father's policies compared to anyone else amongst Muslims.
You must have also noticed a case where one of his governors' son lost a case against an ordinary Muslim where the latter was granted all right to avenge mistreatment he received from the former. The avenging process was also open to the public to let people see how fair and strict Umar was.
Not to mention how Ali bin Abu Thalib’s case with an ordinary Jew on the ownership of an armor suit in which Amirul Mukminin Ali lost due to his lack of evidence? And this happened when he happened to be the leader of the Ummah. Does it give any prejudice impression at all in Islam?
About Prince William:
Despite his festive wedding ceremony…….I hope his marriage lasts and will not end the way his father's first marriage did, though. .
We sincerely have nothing against them, but to us, such festive ceremony portrays nothing but begging characteristic for envies on the side of their own peoples. Isn’t it the taxes levied on them that made such ceremony possible? Isn’t it their money that is used to buy all the jewels?
Err, repeating and not answering things is the one that bores the readers. Your hobby is pointing your finger, isn't it? Oh, the emotion.
Change "speechless" to "ignoring you". If he can be speechless just because of you, his sites won't exist in the first place
Irrelevant again. Your method is not proof. Don't you read anything here?
@ sanada
and I think it's you who is boring the readers with your long essays. I've found in this site that you would jump in the middle of a debate between sina and an Islamic scholar with your typically long arguments. Are you paid for this? Jumping in the middle of a debate when sina seems speechless?
@ sanada
you wrote:
"Irrelevant auntie. Does faith mean traceable, credible, or carefully narrated? Does carefully narrated mean fact? Hold your horse auntie, you have a long list of task that you owe me, so don’t start asking this and that while you yourself don’t do what I ask. "
Ask again your friend Prithvi, how does she know that the way she prays now is the same as it was when initially taught? Through whose narrations did she get it from?
Still don’t get it? Abdul, abdul, how does you brain work, eh? I talked about A but you responded with B. I was talking about the system not the person where Muhammad’s system was destroyed even by his own followers. Caliphate system didn’t hold for long and changed to imperial system where kings and sultans reigned. Even today, we can see kings and queens ruling their nations. People of course know them and some love them (ex: Britain).
You mentioned some Japanese who don’t know the emperor but that’s irrelevant because many Japanese know him, even I know his name. Just because some people don’t know someone because that someone is living in solitude, doesn’t mean all people don’t love or know him.
Logical question for an illogical auntie (forgive the oxymoron, but I cannot help it):
Why does the Japanese keep their emperor although they don’t follow imperial system anymore?
You wrote, “And what happens to imperial system now?”
Still kicking hard just like in Saudi. What happens to Islamic caliphate now? It’s gone with the wind.
You wrote, “do people still love 'kings'?
Yes, they still love royal stuff. Take a look at Prince William’s marriage. You have cherry picked the people this time, auntie.
Ah, talking about man made religion, Islam is proven to be one and since you are running from all my challenge then…
Come one auntie, be honest at least once. You have been cherry picking my posts from day 1. There are too many examples I can bring but that will bore the readers here.
You wrote, “You volunteered to speak for Prithvi but given that you are not a believer of her (any) religion, how would you manage to trace the source of her religion teachings to prove that no changes, additions, or even lies have been interjected into it? If you are, then I suggest that you do the same thing to yours before questioning Islam”
Auntie, let’s face it, ok? You are not smart at all. Here:
Fact 1: I never say I volunteer for anyone
Fact 2: I never talk about Prithvi’s religion on that particular post
Fact 3: You always misunderstand my post
Fact 4: Do you even know Hinduism?
Fact 5: I talk about Muhammad’s fakeness and Hitler comparison (which you have ignored) not tracing thingy.
Fact 6: The method in hadith is irrelevant since it is unscientific and you cannot do that with Quran.
You wrote, “Point out any other religious history that is traceable, credible, and as carefully narrated as that of Islam.”
Irrelevant auntie. Does faith mean traceable, credible, or carefully narrated? Does carefully narrated mean fact? Hold your horse auntie, you have a long list of task that you owe me, so don’t start asking this and that while you yourself don’t do what I ask.
You wrote, “I don’t mean to cherry-pick your arguments. But…re-quoting one of your lines”
Yes, you have cherry picked mine again, ex: pedophilia in Quran and Hitler. The correct words will be:
“I mean to cherry pick your argument but I am too proud to admit”
You wrote, “Suspicion? This is called being very attentive and careful about Islamic resources especially in the presence of people like sina and you. Anyway, Muslims are grateful to have so many credible scholars and traceable narrations from which a lot can be learnt. Doesn’t everyone else here notice that their religious teaching history also needs further verification before confirming that it delivers the real truth to them?”
Auntie, this is called “cherry picking” in normal mind. From that many arguments available, you only picked this and from that many words, you picked “suspicion”. Suspicion is unconfirmed belief and distrust which you have thrown these to the poor guy. And Aisha’s age is still 9 to mainstream muslims. You fail to prove that she’s not 9, you only bring questions that you yourself cannot verify it. Nobody takes series of questions and accusations as proof, only stiff necked believers do.
Being attentive and careful doesn’t mean bringing evidence. The scholar himself was being attentive and careful when publishing it. It doesn’t even contradict the Quran, in fact, it conforms the Quran and no counter publishing either.
This is also your mistake, you wrote “I say I was not trying to avoid NOTHING either”. So in your dictionary, avoiding and not answering topic is called not avoiding anything. Auntie, your dictionary is different from normal world, just like “dungu”. This is also cherry picked.
Another mistake of yours, you wrote “It’s the right of every individual Muslim to hold on to which version of the Aisha-related (r.a) hadiths”
The authentic version says 9 and your version is non existent, only unfounded critique, assumption, and accusation. Concrete evidence does the talking not opinion. It’s the obligation of all muslims to take Quran as moral standard and Quran says ok to child marriage plus Muhammad had child bride and even asked another child to marry him.
Another mistake again, you wrote “My opinion remains, Rasulullah was never a person you people describe him to be”
Yours is mere opinion while mine is fact straight from Quran and hadith. Which one is stronger? Check also Q 65:1-4 that you have avoided (read: cherry picked).
@ sanada
Of course I have ground for my statement. Muslims have grounds for their beliefs.
Since the two of you get along well, and because she quits this debate, please remind Prithvi to reconsider her religion just in case there have been too many changes, man-made additions, and lies interjected into it without her noticing it . If you too have any, please do the same thing.
Any….. traceable source at all?
Is the way she worships God is still the same as it was when initially taught? Who guarantees it?
See? I'm right again and you are not answering my post. Imperial system and caliphate are both gone now but that doesn't change the fact that imperial system had destroyed Islamic caliphate. Japanese friends? Irrelevant, kiddo. The European still knows their king and queen although they are only symbol but caliphate is gone, to the grave.
Err, look again what I was talking about, kiddo coz you gave irrelevant answer again. Nope, Aisha's age is still nine and your suspicion is based on assumption. You have no proof.
Oh, yes, you are cherry picking my post. Just look at the Quran and multiple hadith you have avoided.
Those verification is also not scientific. It's based solely on trust and faith.
Yeah, Sanada. QS.5:101.
Ever wonder why?
Whoops, sorry. I forgot that “don’t ask don’t tell” policy in Islam.
Let’s all just remain quiet and stupid until the day we die.
@ sanada
yeah right. And what happens to imperial system now? do people still love 'kings'? I had some Japanese friends who didn't even know their kaisar's name.
@ sanada
You volunteered to speak for Prithvi but given that you are not a believer of her (any) religion, how would you manage to trace the source of her religion teachings to prove that no changes, additions, or even lies have been interjected into it? If you are, then I suggest that you do the same thing to yours before questioning Islam’s. Here are things to do:
Name some other religion’s scholars who had at least put the same efforts as those of Islam scholars'.
Point out any other religious history that is traceable, credible, and as carefully narrated as that of Islam.
I don’t mean to cherry-pick your arguments. But…re-quoting one of your lines:
“Suspicion, assumption, and unfounded critique are not evidence. Oh, I forgot, you don’t know how to present evidence.”…. then I would go:
Suspicion? This is called being very attentive and careful about Islamic resources especially in the presence of people like sina and you. Anyway, Muslims are grateful to have so many credible scholars and traceable narrations from which a lot can be learnt. Doesn’t everyone else here notice that their religious teaching history also needs further verification before confirming that it delivers the real truth to them?
Patient auntie. Do you even know what I was talking about? On the contrary, the imperial system destroyed Islamic Caliphate.
You wrote, “Nice try”
Oh, it is a nice try if you really read it. Heck, you don't even know what he meant for “brilliant lines”.
You wrote, “But please remember that you are here to question the authenticity of Muhammad’s prophecy, not to make assumptions.”
Auntie, it is ironic that the word “assumption” is coming from your mouth which is proven to be full of assumptions not to mention the lies. Your prophet’s authenticity was never there in the first place and with so many blunders and moral defects he had, he was clearly a fake prophet. The burden of proof is in you, not us.
You wrote, “I have quoted on how you should study the hadiths and how to take a closer look at them.”
Hah? Did you mean that speculative article that doesn’t even have any conclusive evidence? Come on, auntie, that work is mere assumption and speculation. It’s an old thing.
You wrote, “What else do you think I should give comments on when it has been carefully proved that all hadiths about Aisha’s marriage age originated from only one scholar who had moved to Iraq in his oldest age before ‘finally publishing’ them?”
That doesn’t change the fact that Aisha was recorded at around 9 years old. Don’t use personal attack on that guy. You should give comment on my posts which clearly said about pedophilia in both Quran and hadith.
You wrote, “I am not conclusively saying that he is not trustable”
Yeah, you know nothing.
You wrote, “what we are suspecting is that men around him could have done just anything to the story line.”
Suspicion, assumption, and unfounded critique are not evidence. Oh, I forgot, you don’t know how to present evidence.
You wrote, “Another question is why were these hadiths published in a place quite far from where Islam was initially taught?”
Attacking the place is irrelevant. You don’t have any answer and conclusion, you just question this and that.
You wrote, “Come on miss, you are smart. Please don’t act like you’re not.”
Dear, oh dear. If you even read my posts about that, you should at least understand it. Auntie, you are not smart, I mean it.
You wrote, “You are trying too hard if you compare Hitler with Rasulullah just to support your idea about absolutism”
There are similarities on both of them but there are also differences. The problem is, the similarity is bigger and it is negative.
You wrote, “Don’t you see what has happened to Hitler and his doctrines?”
This is one of the differences. Hitler only brought an exclusive doctrine and didn’t develop it into religion, although their method was the same.
You wrote, “It has been only a century since his death. Are his teachings still around for people to apply or to even show a little respect?”
It’s because he didn’t make a religion and created god with it. He also didn’t use conversion. Outside that they were the same.
You wrote, “Aren’t you witnessing what Rasulullah Muhammad is still getting from his diverse ummah even when he is no longer around?”
That’s religion and any religious founder is like that, Example: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, there are hundred millions ahmadi around the world and this sect is still young. There is a name for it, called “idolizing”. Got it, idolater?
Although Hitler didn’t bring any religion, his doctrine is still followed by some fascist groups like Neo Nazi, heck even some muslims follow him.
You wrote, “Love and Respect, two things Hitler and other political leaders would have never gained from peoples other than their very own.”
That’s the difference between “the world” and “the hereafter”. People tend to seek the second be it heaven or nirvana. Muhammad is loved only by his own followers like any criminal leader is.
Sure, not everyone has done the homework and you are one of them. This is proven beyond doubt, auntie.
Yeah, Muhammad also forbade too many questions.
@ sanada
Ops, sorry. The net was having bad connection and I thought my post was not getting through. It came out to be triple.
By the way, if you refute the fact, whose legacy teachings do you think destroyed the imperial system?
@ Prithve
You called it off, thanks.
When you said you were not trying anything, I say I was not trying to avoid NOTHING either. The fact about the hadiths is clear for everyone in all available sources. It’s the right of every individual Muslim to hold on to which version of the Aisha-related (r.a) hadiths. My opinion remains, Rasulullah was never a person you people describe him to be.
It is your constant blasphemy toward the rewarded virgins that has made you people even blinder to see what Islam says about Heaven. This sexually-related reward is only a tiny part of his Grace in the hereafter wherein true and eternal salaam is definitely much more expected by knowledgeable Muslims. In a certain conflict situation, meeting their Lord in his forgiveness tops all reasons why some people prefer dying to living. Nothing in this world lasts forever miss, if you may not even notice.
Other fashions don’t last, but it is those which imitate the sunnah of Rasulullah which will survive over time. You don’t want to dress the way people in the seventies did, do you? Neither do people in the future want to dress the way you do today.
Of course, I am confirmed that Rasulullah’s wives are as honorable as our mothers. Are you even sacred yourself?
Again, you have shown your superficial knowledge about Rasulullah’s best companion Abu Bakr. I suggest that you read his biography and learn how he had no desire for leadership for none of Rasulullah’s closest companions ever saw it as a pleasure, but indeed, they considerately saw it as a mandate upon the ummah which will surely be questioned in smallest details.
I am a Muslim. Thank for your advice. I don’t know what you are but in return, I am advising you to trace the source of your religion’s teachings to make sure that no changes, additions, or even lies have been interjected in it. But let me remind you that it is likely hard to do so unless you have traceable, trust worthy and clearly narrative scholars like those of Islam. That is the best advice I can give to you after all.
Told ‘ya so.
Islam detests questions because Islam doesn’t have answers, never did and never will be.
Someday muslims everywhere must rise and speak the truth that
ISLAM IS A MENTAL SLAVERY!
What is even more ironic is that you call this lady your mother, going by that logic you have 9 confirmed mothers and I wonder how you would like to describe your relationship with the 2 sex slaves which Muhammad had.
You belong to a creed who would color their beard with Henna in the 21st century just because Muhammad did it in the 7th century in the absence of artificial hair colors.
I asked you ONE QUESTION on 3 OCCASIONS, YOU DID NOT ANSWER, DEBATE OVER.
There are others who have written to you in detail and presented to you further facts, spend time with them.
Abdullah.
For the sake of your 72 black eyed virgins who do not answer the call of the nature and sexual potency equal to 100 men as promised to you by Muhammad when you die, do not be so happy and sound ridiculous for I WAS NOT TRYING ANYTHING.
Let me clarify, all I wanted was your OPINION on a fact but your constant avoidance in opining on something as disgusting as raping a 9 year old child proves your mental make-up and background.
I would sincerely hope that you would someday (Inshallah) follow the footsteps of Abu-Bakr. However, let me still give you a piece of advice out of sheer humanity, after sacrificing the childhood of your daughter for a powerful or wealthy maniac, do ensure that in return you at least get something as close to the caliphate which Abu-Bakr got after the death of Muhammad.
Cont
I've had done that "king" thingy in indo site, so don't divert the issue here. If you want to discuss that, at least you must respond my points in indo site first.
I’ve refuted all your points and here you are, still protesting based on nothing but your wounded pride. You don’t answer but expecting another to answer. This is why you are so clueless.
Never underestimate “reading”, kid. All of these Islamic scriptures came from “reading”. Heck, even your idol, Muhammad, knew it from “reading”.
Q 96:1 Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
Quran was also made from multiple references copied from stone, leaf, memory, etc. You are way out of your league, kid. You protested but you brought no proof, only your ego.
Er, science in Islamic world developed from the past works of other nations such as India and China, various conquered nations such as Egypt, Persia, and Iraq. The knowledge was already there. It had nothing to do with Islam just like the "observation" order. Go search "Indian scientist and its golden era".
PS: don’t forget my challenge, auntie. You talk but you don’t deliver, I suggest you read something first and do objectively this time.
In the end, this auntie still running away from my challenges while I've done all her so called challenges. Come on, I only accept relevant answer.
@ Prithvi
brilliant last lines?
You are somewhat overlooking what most kings would do to their peoples showing disobedience to their rules. You have read how ancient Indian kings would treat the so-called lowest people (the sudras) when found reading the Holy Veda, haven't you?
Please spare just a little time to picture your self still living in any imperial system. What a perfect time to speak up, wasn't it?
If you sincerely think that this system is the most acceptable way of ruling societies, then why not elect a king in your own country as your ruler? and let him enjoy wealth from taxes burdened upon you to live hereditarily in prosperity.
This system was actually entering its downfall era the day Umar bin Khattab started leading Muhammad Rasulullah's ummat. That is why it is possible that after the arrival of Islam, civilizations and countries started to produce great scientists.
@ Prithvi
brilliant last lines?
You are somewhat overlooking what most kings would do to their peoples showing disobedience to their rules. You have read how ancient Indian kings would treat the so-called lowest people (the sudras) when found reading the Holy Veda, haven't you?
Please spare just a little time to picture your self still living in any imperial system. What a perfect time to speak up, wasn't it?
If you sincerely think that this system is the most acceptable way of ruling societies, then why not elect a king in your own country as your ruler? and let him enjoy wealth from taxes burdened upon you to live hereditarily in prosperity.
This system was actually entering its downfall era the day Umar bin Khattab started leading Muhammad Rasulullah's ummat. That is why it is possible that after the arrival of Islam, civilizations and countries started to produce great scientists.
@ Prithvi
brilliant last lines?
You are somewhat overlooking what most kings would do to their peoples showing disobedience to their rules.
Please spare just a little time to picture your self still living in any imperial system. What a perfect time to speak up, wasn't it?
If you sincerely think that this system is the most acceptable way of ruling societies, then why not elect a king in your own country as your ruler? and let him enjoy wealth from taxes burdened upon you to live hereditarily in prosperity.
This system was actually entering its downfall era the day Umar bin Khattab started leading Muhammad Rasulullah's ummat. That is why it is possible that after the arrival of Islam, civilizations and countries started to produce great scientists.
@ Prithvi
Nice try!
But please remember that you are here to question the authenticity of Muhammad’s prophecy, not to make assumptions. I have quoted on how you should study the hadiths and how to take a closer look at them. What else do you think I should give comments on when it has been carefully proved that all hadiths about Aisha’s marriage age originated from only one scholar who had moved to Iraq in his oldest age before ‘finally publishing’ them? I am not conclusively saying that he is not trustable, but what we are suspecting is that men around him could have done just anything to the story line. Another question is why were these hadiths published in a place quite far from where Islam was initially taught? Come on miss, you are smart. Please don’t act like you’re not.
You are trying too hard if you compare Hitler with Rasulullah just to support your idea about absolutism. Don’t you see what has happened to Hitler and his doctrines? It has been only a century since his death. Are his teachings still around for people to apply or to even show a little respect?
Aren’t you witnessing what Rasulullah Muhammad is still getting from his diverse ummah even when he is no longer around? Love and Respect, two things Hitler and other political leaders would have never gained from peoples other than their very own.
You said that Islam’s timeline is thin. Did you mean to say that there is no such traceable teachings history in your religion? Any source?….. with which you would say: “o yes, this teaching is still exactly the same as it was when initially taught.”
Again, you are too hasty to speak of anything about enlightenment. I do hope that one day, you are reversely enlightened.
PS: Have you done your homework?
Prithvi,
You wrote, “Brilliant last lines. Rather unfortunate that they are still not able to understand and realise the truth.”
Yeah, to you, that lines appear to be real but to auntie ihsan, it doesn’t exist. Watch his reply and repetition.
You wrote, “This is the best you can do, beat around the bush and avoid coming to terms with a fact which makes all the Muslims around the world look for cover when put across.”
Wow, now she is also a gardener. Day by day, it’s getting worse. This auntie only occupies low rated works, no wonder she is so stupid, not to mention her cowardly act.
You wrote, “If there is such a law in America I condemn it deeply”
Touche, commander. Also look at the fifth point I’ve made, “US citizens see that as ‘child marriage’”. This retarded auntie never understands it but she is a narcissist so she will be proud of it. Well, the usual garbage bin as always, you have to get used to it.
You wrote, “Like always, you wrote too long just to show your unreasonable hatred.”
So, detailed explanation with reliable source means unreasonable hatred? As usual, your brain is pathetic, you can’t answer but you have the shame to slander people. You are the unreasonable one, actually.
You wrote, “Miss, you have made the exact point.”
Auntie, I always make a point, unlike you. Oh, I see you don’t read my 4 points.
You wrote, “Who has asked disbelievers to marry young?”
So, if a father allows his child to steal and set the rule of thievery and that means he doesn’t ask his child to steal? If a father himself makes an example, that doesn’t mean he asks his child to do it? Come on kid. Use your little gray cell once in a while.
In Islam, all pedophiles on this earth are free to do child marriage and Muhammad is the best example and must be followed. Have you read what your brother Marwan had brought? Three years old is legal in Islam and this is worse than few states in US. Puberty or not doesn’t matter, kid. That’s a big problem.
You wrote, “It's among muslims. Disbelievers don't have to do likewise”
Fact 1: Muslims are seeking convert
Fact 2: Allah is the inheritor of this earth and he wants all humans to follow him either through deceit or war.
Fact 3: Allah’s standard is for all time
Fact 4: Slavery in Islam is not about muslim only, it also targets non muslims
I see you, again and again, have missed my sentence, so I’ll repeat again:
“If muslim is just a bunch of hermit who are not going wild and trying to convert and destroy any civilization, your words will be correct.”
You wrote, “Come on miss. Do what your religion to do (if you have any).”
Oh, of course, you follow a criminal so don’t protest if everyone doesn’t like you. A criminal deserves punishment. Hating a criminal is not unreasonable hatred but a healthy one.
You criminal teacher also told you to conquer the earth so it’s normal for any person to fight this criminal.
You wrote, “Muslims at least have something they believe in”
Even Einstein had something to believe. What’s the limit here?
You wrote, “It's a pity you that you don't”
Judging from the mistakes made by allah swt? Nah, he’s fake so I pity you instead. I pity everyone that got trapped with human perception and feels proud with it, not knowing that they have wasted their own mind.
Auntie, stop the rhetorical preaching, will you? Stick to the topic “Muhammad is a pedophile” and your “double standard about hadith”. Oh, and one more, buy a mirror, will you?
Sigh, you never understand anything here,
You wrote, “O now you know at what exact time tomorrow you will waste the thing in you?”
Auntie, it’s irrelevant answer again. Actually if you want to think carefully, yes you can predict that. Ah, do you have stomach problem? Poor kid.
You wrote, “It is you who are not thinking.”
Pointing finger again, auntie? Such a hobby is bad, you know.
You wrote, “I posted my opinion about Miraj but you came up with the idea of observing as means to the slaves of Allah.”
Auntie, it is you who brought up that, not me. Yours is mere opinion and mine is fact, it has authority in it.
You wrote, “I agreed to that in my next reply, what's wrong? Muslims are proud to be slaves of Allah, no doubt about it”
This means you misunderstand me again. Your response itself is wrong. What? Still don’t get it? So, you agree that allah never tells muslims to search science, case closed.
You wrote, “My question remains”
So do my points and challenge. Who’s first? It is me who issued it. Are you answering me? No, you are avoiding me. Am I answering you? Yes, point by point.
You wrote, “Remember miss, you haven’t been here to challenge me”
Challenging you is the same with challenging the Quran. You are its brainchild, auntie.
You wrote, “you are here because you want to challenge the authenticity of the Quran.”
I have been doing that all along, including Miraj, universe, god concept, scientific blunders, etc. Come on auntie, you act like a cornered mouse.
Remember, you are here to prove science in Quran so do my challenge.
You wrote, “Make just one Surah like it and that's all.”
First you said about one verse and now you talk about one surah. What a poor inconsistent kid who follows inconsistent god.
Abdullah!
Keep in mind that you and your conduct in this very debate proves the thin timeline of Islam as a religion.
You are simply refusing to comment about a fact about the founder of your religion.
Absolutism in any form, either in the name of a political leader like Hitler or a religious leader like Muhammad cannot survive for a very long time because it is conflicting at the heart of what we humans possess and which differentiates us with the animals and trees. It is called FREE WILL.
You are resisting yourself from commenting and this is precisely against the very law of being a human.
Billions are being spent each year to prove the divinity, scientific miracles, equality, rights in Islam and to further negate the loose and demonic character of Muhammad but the examples are right there in front of you, no matter how much you try to hide the truth, in the end it will come out and enlighten those who wish to be enlightened.
Nope, you don't understand my points, auntie. Read again, Islam moralize child marriage and it wants all humans on this earth to follow its standard unlike few states in US (can be changed in the future). Islam is the real threat and cannot be changed.
EX: Slavery, in the past US practiced it, but now it's gone. Islam? Slavery will exists forever and become the world's standard.
@ sanada
Like always, you wrote too long just to show your unreasonable hatred.
Here is why I say so:
You wrote:
"4. Massachusetts or New Hampshire don’t spread this standard into other states, let alone other nations."
Miss, you have made the exact point.
Who has asked disbelievers to marry young? It's among muslims. Disbelievers don't have to do likewise. Were you ever invited by Islamic laws to marry young that you are so scared of this happening to you? Just ignore it .
Come on miss. Do what your religion to do (if you have any). Muslims at least have something they believe in. It's a pity you that you don't.
Dear Sanada_10!
Brilliant last lines. Rather unfortunate that they are still not able to understand and realise the truth.
I am a self-proclaimed saviour of mankind and I am here to correct them – Muhammad.
How is the correction and salvation taking place? Well, very simple; just believe that I am the postman of God and you will be rewarded with loot which includes money and women.
What if you do not believe in this postman? Again very simple; you, your relatives, and your children above the age of the puberty would be killed and your wives and daughters would be enslaved to have sex.
The Muslims also need to think on the lines of where was this modern day GOD before the 7th century and how is possible that there were great kingdoms, kings, civilization and even great scientific discoveries which took place before the advent of this God or rather THE MAN who invented this version of God.
How is it possible that even after the arrival of this youngest God, all religions, civilizations and countries continues to produce great men?
This is the best you can do, beat around the bush and avoid coming to terms with a fact which makes all the Muslims around the world look for cover when put across.
I am saying again – If there is such a law in America I condemn it deeply and do champion that it should be abolished at once.
NOW AGAIN, DO YOU THINK WHAT MUHAMMAD DID WITH AISHA BY MARRYING HER WHEN SHE 6 YEARS OLD, PLAYING WITH DOLLS AND THEN HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE WAS 9 YEARS OLD, WRONG OR NOT?
Irrelevant answer again, auntie.
The double standard rises again.
The formula of an auntie:
Bukhari => Buraq => Non existence in Quran => Must be real
Bukhari => Pedophilia => Sanctioned in Quran => Debatable.
Tell me, how does your brain work actually?
The fact is there is no serious talk about pedophilia in Islam, since it is ok:
Q 65:1 O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, …
Q 65:4 Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses [it is the same]: for those who carry [life within their wombs], their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Ibn Kathir says:
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded a simpler narration than this one from Ubay bin Ka`b who said, "O Allah's Messenger! When the Ayah in Surat Al-Baqarah was revealed prescribing the `Iddah of divorce, some people in Al-Madinah said, `There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,
(Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses).
Bukhari 7.63:
Narrated Sahl bin Sa`d: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sa`d, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Qur'an (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).
The law of Massachusetts is made by man, not a prophet. It has different elements with Islam:
1. It can be changed
2. It is not divine
3. That’s only few states out of many states in US
4. Massachusetts or New Hampshire don’t spread this standard into other states, let alone other nations
5. US citizens see that as “child marriage”.
6. Stupid generalization from an auntie is not a good reading. Example: your victim Obama.
7. The thief is shouting to another thief. No, it’s not about Jewish company again, auntie.
8. USA is the most diverse nation in the world.
Auntie OOT, I have discussed it in “Was Muhammad pedophile”. Look (and read) at my posts and try to answer me.
You wrote, “a12 & 13 year-old girl can be married with parental consent in certain states in the US”
This is why you are so stupid:
1. Comparing one world standard with isolated incident in isolated states.
2. Comparing divine standard (forever) with certain human standard (temporary)
3. Comparing 9 years old with 12 years old is apple and orange, auntie thief.
4. 2 wrongs don’t make one right.
You wrote, “Why do you people even bother?”
Hah? If muslim is just a bunch of hermit who are not going wild and trying to convert and destroy any civilization, your words will be correct.
Why does Islam even bother about apostate? Why did Muhammad even bother about pagan? Why does allah swt even bother about human not worshipping him? Why do you even bother about this and that? Kid, read something will you?
You wrote, “know where you're writing? this article isn't about jihaad. It's about marriage.”
Your words are like mirror, it’s reflecting your own habit. How about I quote your own words about Jewish company? And can Prithvi answer it just like you did before? Don’t call another as a thief if you yourself are a thief. What? Can’t understand again?
Auntie, it is about marriage.
Bukhari 7.64: Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Bukhari 7.65: Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Bukhari 7.88: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
See? It is “narrated Aisha” not “narrated auntie Ihsan”
Notice the words, “Everything cannot be taught to you, there are things which come naturally to you”.
Muhammad was indeed a pedophile and a narcissist:
Bukhari 8.151:
Narrated `Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath−ul−Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Bukhari 7.163:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.
Bukhari 7.182:
Narrated Abu Usaid: We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash−Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date−palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An−Nu`man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you."…
Muslim 8:3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Abu Dawood 41.4914:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store−room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her. He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
@ Prithvi
On the contrary miss, I am using my brain to lead my heart to sensing that Allah is the only creator of man and the universe. He has never discussed anything about His creating all things He has created. He doesn't have to and He will never have to. He didn't even have to discuss with your parents that He would give you as their child. He has no partner nor does He need any.
Heaven is created with His Grace and Hell is created with His Justice.
He asks us to ask for His Forgiveness at all time because only He has the right to forgive. Only ungrateful people are so stuck up never begging for it when they know that every one of them has tendency to commit sins.
He has all rights to be Arrogant, if He’s not then who deserves to be?
The most honored status is being His Slaves. You want to be someone’s? It’s up to you.
Of course He knows what His slaves do, even in smallest details. But His asking tells us about His Justice that even sinners are given every right to defend themselves in His Court.
Like all of us, mother Theresa will surely be questioned but it’s still all His decision where He will place her. Although it’s clear that unbelievers will go to Hell, it’s also said that His judgments on the day remain His and man has really nothing to do with it.
Simple enough to understand?
About amercan marriageable laws, you keep saying: 'if there is such a law in the US then it is wrong and should be abolished at once.'
Let me ask you. Why there has been no noise about these american marriage laws? The laws have been there for centuries. Let me help you with an answer. It's simply because they are not Islam's. You people have so much hatred in Islam that you are so blind to even notice that such other marriage laws exist. Get it?
That's why I suggest that you do something about them, not about that of Islam. You may start with writing. Dare to do so? Why not? Judging from your English, I am sure you are more than qualified.
I am not asking for the opinion of the Islamic scholars, I am asking for what you think.
WHO ARE ISLAMIC SCHOLARS – NONE ELSE THAN SOMEONE WHO HAS READ SOME BOOKS, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHO IS STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THE SAME RESEARCH, READING THE SAME SET OF BOOKS?
I am repeating what I said, I AM SAYING – if there is such a law in the US then it is wrong and should be abolished at once.
NOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHAT MUHAMMAD DID WITH AISHA BY MARRYING HER WHEN SHE 6 YEARS OLD AND PLAYING WITH DOLLS AND THEN HAVING SEX WITH HER WHEN SHE WAS 9 YEARS OLD, WRONG OR NOT?
Are you not aware about the stupid process of your Judgment Day where in you will only be asked about your belief in Allah and his Apostle Muhammad?
Are you not aware or you are lying that as per the teachings of Allah (Muhammad), Muhammad Atta is in heaven right now and Mother Teresa in burning in hell?
If you say that the above statement is wrong or even that you do not agree with it then you need to fist of all study your religion, chances are that you will cross over to the other side of the table.
As far as your judging your Prophet is concerned, WHY NOT, WHY CAN’T YOU USE YOUR RATIONAL AND HUMAN SIDE OF THE BRAIN AND COMMENT ABOUT A MAN WHOM YOU FOLLOW BLINDLY, WHO IS STOPPING YOU?
Cont
Innocents’ getting killed for any reason is wrong, furthermore, the name which would top the list of the men who got INNOCENTS KILLED for GREED would be none other than MUHAMMAD but this is a separate issue.
My GOD does not believe in asking questions, the answers for which is already knows. He is not a SADIST who would unnecessarily make us stand in a line and let us wait in misery to pronounce his judgment.
We are told since childhood to focus on our actions, be good and respect our elders, fellow humans, trees, animals and respect our entire environment.
So, when you say that “YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO IN LIFE?” off course I do but what makes you talk in line with the teachings of the oldest religion (Hinduism) of the world.
Cont
Abdullah,
I thought I was talking to a mature person but I forgot that you are a Muslim and would go on to any extent to defend it endlessly even if that would make you sound ridiculous.
I know this article and I just quoted an example to highlight that there is something called as brain inside your body which is supposed to be used. We are not machines supposed to follow a program or software named as Quran.
When you say that you will feel sad then that proves that you are a human being first because you are defying your own Allah because as per your Allah (Muhammad), Jihad is the greatest service to Allah (Muhammad) for which a seat in paradise is guaranteed.
Start using this HUMAN side of yours first, observe things, knowledge from all directions and then take a call.
Cont
See? I am right about this auntie. Look at the Quran too dude. It allows child marriage.
@ Prithvi
know where you're writing? this article isn't about jihaad. It's about marriage.
Miss, you don't have to say chances are. Of course I will.
Naturally as human being I will be sad to see a young child blown into pieces in the name of Allah.
But don't you ever feel sadder to see people get killed in the name of GREED? Dying for Allah means something no matter how one dies be it in a battle, in doing something for a living, or a mother giving birth to her baby. But dying for greed? Don't tell me you haven't heard one. Don’t say you don’t know that most rulers waged war for greed.
Let me tell you my secret but please keep it: a corruptor dying ‘nicely’ on his bed before he repents sounds a lot sadder to me. How will he answer questions God asks him about the money he cheated from his peoples? What? You don’t believe that you will be held responsible for what you do in life? I do.
Yes, miss, there is such law in America. You can google it your self.
You say it is wrong. You're probably the only one who's said so. If your statement is sincere, instead of commenting on our Prophet's marriage, why don't you just do something about those american marriage laws? You may start by writing about it I suggest.
Who am I to judge Rasulullah’s marriage? I am just gonna let the scholars do their work. Besides, its supposed to be moslems' internal issues. Why do you people even bother? I just want the haters of Islam notice that a12 & 13 year-old girl can be married with parental consent in certain states in the US. And let them think about it for them selves.
Mr. Ihsan,
Sir, you talk but you don’ t listen.
You realize what you just said?
Supposing that these “serious talks” among “religious scholars” conclude that Aisha, your mother, was not of 9 years of age when Muhammad, with all do respect, gloriously fukked her.
What’s that gonna prove then?
Aisha was either lying, or the Bukhari Hadith even the entire Islamic Texts are questionnable.
WHO CARES ABOUT MARRIGEABLE AGE CONSENT IN THE US? This is not about that.
We’ve been through this already.
You Sir, are shooting wildly to the extent of embarassment to yourself.
Abdullah,
Firstly there is no argument about it; Aisha was 6 years old when married to Muhammad and Muhammad consummated the marriage with Aisha when Aisha was 9 years old.
Sahih Hadith
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Everything cannot be taught to you, there are things which come naturally to you. Someday if you will see a young child blown into pieces in the hollow name of Allah, chances are that you will feel sad for the child.
If there is such a law in America, it is wrong and incorrect and should be replaced at once. I AM SAYING THAT.
NOW, CAN YOU SAY THAT WHAT MUHAMMAD DID WITH AISHA WAS WRONG?
CAN YOU?
Our mother’s age (Aisha) when she was married to Rasulullah Muhammad is still in serious talk among Islamic scholars. Yet here sina argued that she was undoubtedly married at the age of six and reported to have intercourse with him (PBUH) when she was nine.
Although there’s much to talk about this issue, let's forget about it for a while.
Does any one here notice that in Massachusetts marriageable age with parental consent for female is 12 years old and it is 13 in New Hampshire? That is today in America! Why don’t you people discuss about these modern marriage laws first before saying something about our prophet’s marriage?
you may search this information at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age
Our mother’s age (Aisha) when she was married to Rasulullah Muhammad is still in serious talk among Islamic scholars. Yet here sina argued that she was undoubtedly married at the age of six and reported to have intercourse with him (PBUH) when she was nine.
Although there’s much to talk about this issue, let's forget about it for a while.
Does any one here notice that in Massachusetts marriageable age with parental consent for female is 12 years old and it is 13 in New Hampshire? That is today in America! Why don’t you people discuss about these modern marriage laws first before saying something about our prophet’s marriage?
Dear Hameed, Open your eye, think peacefully what Mohammad life teach us, kill other’s husband and family married to widow and child. Do robberies sell human, dress like animal? Tell me a single good thing about his life that we should follow.
Keep your self there when a Mohammad do same thing with your family how you feel.
Assalamualaikum Hameed,
Settle down, Dude.
First of all. Let me ask you. Why would anyone in his right mind make fun of Jesus? Does one find Jesus offensive in anyway?
Muhammad was no Jesus. He was a rapist, a murderer, a warlord etc.
Also a paedophile. Quran and Hadith have made it clear. You just don’t see it. Because you idolize Muhammad not God himself. Anything you find in the article is offensive. Look again, was Sina making fun of Muhammad? Or was he pointing out truth in accordance to Quran and Hadith.
No, Brother Hameed. This article is not an insult. If you think it is. Then, definitely the Quran and Hadith have been insulting Muhammad all along in which Sina based his works on.
Brother Hameed. This is an enlightenment. Sina might be the only one that can pull out our brothers and sisters out of the Dark Age.
Open your eyes, mind and heart, Brother. Hence you shall then see the truth.
Wassalamualaikum.
You bustards, do we Muslim make fun of ur religion. do we.
Rascals,. You So called broad minded persons have wicked and narrow mind. You can never do justice. it is not ur trait. You can only give what u have, Your poison, and hate.
Did we ever made fun of Jesus Christ ( Peace Be Upon Him). did we?
Thanks for the link, the videos isn't available but links are. Awesome 🙂
in the above video,an asshole tries to justify the unjustifiable….
[youtube dWwNZmqN2Zc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWwNZmqN2Zc youtube] http://newstime.co.nz/mohammad-the-pedophile.html