Moon Split or Islamic Hoax?
Muslims believe that while Muhammad was in Mecca, Allah split the Moon as a miracle to the Meccans. This claim is made in the Quran.
Surah 54 of the Quran is called “The Moon.” It starts by saying:
The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder
And if they see a miracle they turn aside and say: Transient magic.
And they call (it) a lie, and follow their low desires; and every affair has its appointed term.
The great Muslim scholar Maududi explains:
The amazing and wonderful phenomenon of the splitting of the Moon was a manifest sign of the truth that the Resurrection, of which the Holy Prophet was giving them the news, could take place and that it had approached near at hand. The great sphere of the Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined.
However, there are several problems with this story.
The main problem is that it contradicts the Quran itself. In various places Muhammad admitted that he could not perform miracles. When asked for miracles his response was:
Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger? Q. 17: 93
In another place he put the following words in the mouth of Allah:
And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner. Q. 13: 07
Muhammad insisted that even though other prophets had miracles, his only miracle is the Quran. So when Muslims claim that Muhammad performed miracles, they are going against the Quran itself. (See the article Did Muhammad Perform Miracles?)
The other problem with this claim is that this astronomical phenomenon should have been observed, not just in Mecca, but all over the world. Many nations have recorded even eclipses, why there is no mention of such a thing that for sure would have been the most amazing phenomenon?
Moiz Amjad, one scholar that answers questions for Understanding-Islam.com says, “I have not yet come across any historical accounts of other nations, which refer to the incident.” He thinks this is “a sign of the promised hour.”
Curiously the same site contradicts itself and claims that in fact a certain king of India observed the splitting of the Moon and he sent his son to Mecca who converted to Islam and upon returning he died in Yemen.
This story is of course another hoax. There is no mention of an Indian converting to Islam during the life of Muhammad in any version of Sira. One ridiculous fabrication was the claim that the astronauts who landed on the Moon heard the adhan (Muslim call to prayer) being chanted there. Muslims have based their entire faith on these fairy tales.
First of all there is no record that any King of India ever visited Muhammad.
Secondly the splitting of Moon should have been observed by everyone all over the world and not just by one king.
Thirdly, assuming that this Indian king saw the Moon splitting, how could he interpret this cosmic phenomenon as the sign that there has appeared a new prophet in Mecca? Muslims claim that Indian scriptures contain predictions about the coming of a messenger from Arabia. This is bull. There is no mention of Muhammad in any sacred book of any religion.
Note that the verses of the Quran and several hadiths that narrate this story do not claim that this so called miracle was performed by Muhammad. They say that people saw the Moon in two sides of the mount Hira and Muhammad said this is a sign from Allah to convince you that I am a prophet. Many Muslims are convinced that this phenomenon has indeed happened. They are shown these close-up pictures of the Moon taken by Apollo 10 as evidence.
These are called Lunar Rilles. Rilles are long and deep gorges resembling canyons. A rille is typically several kilometers wide and hundreds of kilometers in length. Similar formations are found on a number of planets in the solar system, including Mars, Venus, and on a number of moons.
How these rilles are formed is still subject of study. Theories include erosion at some point in the stellar body’s history, collapsed lava tubes, and tectonic activity/stresses.
There are three types of rilles on the lunar surface:
- Sinuous rilles meander in a curved path like a river, and are commonly thought to be the remains of collapsed lava tubes or extinct lava flows. They usually begin at an extinct volcano, then meander and sometimes split as they are followed across the surface.
- Arcuate rilles have a smooth curve and are found on the edges of the dark lunar maria. They are believed to form when the lava flows that created a mare cools, contracts, and sinks.
- Straight rilles follow long, linear paths and are believed to be grabens. That is, a section of the crust that has sunk between two parallel faults. These can be readily identified when they pass through craters or mountain ranges.
Rilles can be found all over the lunar surface and they do not form a belt and therefore do not in anyway support the claim of Muslims that the Moon had been split asunder. Here are a few pictures that should dismiss this Islamic wishful thinking. To understand how rilles scar the surface of the Moon, we have to take a look at pictures showing the moon from farther up.
The following rilles are found on Mars and Venus and Europa the moon of Jupiter.
Martian and Venetian rilles
Europen rilles
Assuming this story is not a lie, as many of Muhammad’s claims, it must have been an optical illusion. I found a similar tale from two people who saying they saw two moons in the sky. These observers, however, are wiser than Muhammad and have tried to explain the phenomenon in rational way. Our ignorant prophet pretender, assumed that the Moon had actually split and that it was a miracle. This only shows that this man was an idiot with zero understanding and intellect.
Two moons spotted over SyracusePosted by Frederic Pierce January 23, 2008 11:26AM“While working years ago with WAVES (Western Area Volunteer Emergency Service) out of the Fairmount area, we were returning in the ambulance after having delivered a patient to Community General Hospital . It was dark except for a large moon evident in the southeast. When nearing the intersection of Onondaga Road (NYS 173) and Howlett Hill Road we noted a replication of the moon to the northwest, a ‘wrong’ place. Now we had two moons, the wrong one being in the direction of Fairmount and/or Onondaga Lake . “I speculate the following. There was an apparent cloud bank to the northwest (the sky was clear where we were) and the night was still, no wind. It appeared that perhaps the lake surface was acting as a mirror, reflecting the image of the moon to the lower surface of the cloud bank, thus making it visible to us.” That sounds good to me, although I couldn’t find any references of double moon illusions like that through Google. The closest thing I found was a 2003 e-mail about Mars being so close to earth that it appears to be a second moon. The e-mail keeps getting re-circulated to seem recent and has been discredited by Snopes. Any amateur astronomers or meteorologists out there have an insight? |
The following is someone else responding:
| Hi. I had a sighting of a double moon in late October, 1995. Here are the details. |
It had been an unusually warm and dry winter so far that year. I was on picket duty in late October, 1995, when I saw something I will never forget. Around 10:00 a.m. I happened to look straight up in the sky and saw the moon. It appeared very large and was about 3/4 full (sorry, I don’t know the proper term). After staring at it for a couple of minutes, it occurred to me that it was in the wrong part of the sky. That’s when I looked southward, towards the horizon and saw it again. I did a double-, triple-, quadruple-take! I couldn’t believe my eyes. I did a comparison and the moons were identical.
I was alone that day. picketing a less-used back entrance to Fred Meyer main office, in Portland , OR . I couldn’t believe my bad luck – that day there was noone there to be a witness to what I was seeing! I even tried to stop a couple of bicyclists to get them to stop and look up to the sky to see what I was seeing. I guess they figured I was crazy, as they wouldn’t stop for me but kept riding on.
I continued to look back and forth, at the moon in the sky above and the one at the horizon. Until it made me dizzy. I kept expecting the one overhead to disappear. After awhile, I guess I got tired of looking at them, especially with noone to discuss them with. My attention wandered and before I knew it, it was afternoon and my husband was picking me up. I looked for the moons, but, of course, they were gone. He didn’t believe that I had really seen what I had seen.
Feel free to contact me about my sighting or any new sightings you may have heard about!
Sincerely,
Gina Barker
Apparently few others have also seen such phenomenon. Take a look at this discussion board.
There is an interesting video on Youtube that tells a story of a four men who claim they saw a UFO that resembled the moon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaQ9dN67QgI&feature=related
Could it be that what Muhammad and the Meccans saw was actually a UFO?
Although I have no explanation for this phenomenon, what is clear, is that moon did not split 1400 years ago nor at any time. The fact that Muhammad thought so split only proves his ignorance.
It was a Miracle, Miracles cannot be explained by Science. To believe the splitting of Moon really happened one must believe that there is a Creator/God/Allah who can do whatever he wants, his power and authority has not limits and He's above the laws of physics.
>>However, Islam doesn't mention anything about 'sanatana dharma'/'hinduism' or its prophets<<
Thats maybe because hinduism was not widely spreaded, and the followers of this religion would be even less in numbers than they are today. i.e. Hindus have only one Country INDIA.
Hi guys,
Have you guys met a moslem doing something peaceful and let your bussiness done ? how they do their bussiness without disturbing yours? 🙂
Come on.. everyone has each opinion, that's okey and it's the most beautiful thing in the world, but please don't blame "the whole community" by several groups do, we can keep our opinion as our idealism.
I'm appreciate your thougts, it's your own right.. keep it for yourself Ali, and share it in a good way for someone who agrees with you…
I'm not agree with you, I'm a moslem.. and let us believe our faith like the way you're not..
Is it simple and peaceful right? 🙂
And for my moslem brothers..why not let them believe about something.. like they do in the same way to us? 🙂
Just tell something in the nice way guys..is it that difficult?? I dont think so.. 🙂
I mentioned somewhere that your life is meaningless. But of course no one's life is. In fact you lead people to the very thing you are fighting against. And that is the numerous miracles in the quran and the sunnah of the prophet peace be upon him. What I meant is that you live your life in a meaningless way. And you are going to regret this website the day you will need his (the prophet pbuh) intercedence.
Ask the people of Taif how they 'voluntarily' converted.
"NO ONE FORCED TO ISLAM"
That actually is what is laughable. Find out how the people of Najran 'submitted' and 'surrendered' to Khalid ibn Walid.
Would you want to know how Abu Sufyan became a 'convert'? He was threatened with beheading.
If allah so loved and protected him, why did allah not do the same when Muhammad was hit in the face at Uhud causing him to lose some teeth? There was no protection or warning against the poisoning at Khayyabar. Where was allah in all those situations?
Yes that was what Muhammad said. But he lied . He said this to cover his shame of being kicked out of Taif. What else a narcissist like him could say when humiliated? "I can't destroy you but I won't because I am better than that." This is very pathetic way a narcissist and even children who are narcissist react when humiliated. Why Gabriel who offered to destroy Taif did not come earlier to shield him from those stones that the children at Taif were throwing at him? Do you see how stupid is that claim. Muhammad could not do much to take his revenge so he made up this stupid and childish story He even claimed that while the men in Taif kicked him out the jinns recognized him as a prophet and accepted him. All this is to sooth his injured ego and save face. When he came to power and had assembled a bunch of very stupid people who were willing to die for him, he showed no mercy to his victims.
I heard that Jibril offered to annihilate Ta'if, but Muhammad DISSAPPROVED, WORRYING that EVEN IF THEY DIDN"T BECOME MUslims, THEIR SONS MIGHT BE still had the chance
Not sure about the source though
Peaceful regions?
Killing of the woman children?
Days of the Ignorance and foolishness
Deviation from Ibrahim teachings
THEY TRIED TO ASSASINATE HIM, but he is saved by Allah and Kafirs found Ali in his bed instead of Muhammad, and because of the tension Muhammad Hijrah to Madinah
He kept INVITING but not FORCING, Not even torturing
NOT ISLAMIC INQUISITION
Your example is laughable, but Mohammad firstly spread Islam secretly and by the time he openly spread Islam,
No one person forced to Islam, They surrender (Islam means submit, surrender too) willingly
Over the times but some munafiqun joined Islam in Islam caliphate and rule
just to get fewer payments from jizyah
During the time Abu Sufyan say that, Arab Clans realize their lost of power over their clans and afraid that Islam will be power in Arabia, for political issues and other Abu Jahl (who ironically have real name Abul Hakam) try to stop Muhammad teachings of Islam
A lot of people tortured because of their faith in Islam, but "Let the Pagans had their own religion" a bit collide with "Don't spread your religion more because more people will convert to Islam and harm our dying traditions"
Muhammad never forced the Arab Pagans to Islam, but a lot of Arab Pagans convert to Islam.
Pagans were the one who restricted them….
2) for this one I didn't really know but they were tortured, and even if you know I assume your opinion won't change
Guess who is talking about one having whimsical ideas about muhammadanism.
"THE PROPHET DIDN'T OBSERVE THE MOON SPLITTING INTO TWO RATHER HE WAS ASKED BY THE INFIDELS TO SHOW SOME MIRACLE AND HE SPLIT INTO INTO TWO". Do you mean by this that Muhammad actually split the moon into two? There is no historical or astronomical record of such a thing having ever taken place. The lack of evidence of that moon splitting and all the fables rehashed and passed off as 'revelations' prove convincingly that your prophet lived on falsehood without having the slightest notion of science.
The hadiths record that when that eclipse took place Muhammad jumped up frightened that it was the Day of Judgement. If he were scientific he would have known that an eclipse is an astronomical phenomenon. There is also controversy about the paternity of the dead child. This arose because after Khadijah's children Muhammad was incapable of fathering any children, his uncountable wives and concubines notwithstanding.
Whoever wrote this article is ignorant of Islam. He based his whimsical ideas and prejudicial theories about Islam just by reading the fabricated section of hadiths and totally ignored what was transmitted by authentic chains. The Prophet was not a superstitious person. First of all, the story about him splitting used by this damn Website is wholly wrong. The Prophet didn't observe the moon splitting into two rather he was asked by the infidels to show some miracle and he split into into two. Our Prophet was a man of scientific nature and he rejected all false notions (many if not all) of his era.
When the Prophet lost his last son, the solar eclipse, coincidentally, took place and the people misunderstood the death of his son with the eclipse. On that, the Prophet said, 'The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (birth) of someone. When you see the eclipse, pray and invoke God'. (Bukhari 16/4 and 16/19; Muslim 10/31; Nisa'i 16/33)
GIna,
You are an idiot yourself.
You are barking a lot of nonsense. Thats why your surname is Barker.
What has this post got to do with eating meat?
I welcome the Prophet Sina. Sir, where are you for so many days? I always afraid what happened to Ali Sina. Thanks to God you are back.
Sir, here is an article having similar thoughts like you. Please go through http://agniveer.com/why-i-dont-eat-meat/
Why I don’t eat meat?
“If you are a Sunni, they will kill you instantly.”
Not instantly. But they will deprive you of your basic human rights, in the same way that Sunnis deprive Shiites of their basic human rights.
Quran puts itself above God..
Islam teaches people to kill others what because God is not capable of his own justice?
Why would a mullah know better than God? .. maybe it is an ego thing.. "do what i say or i kill you".. just like mohammad killed everyone that did not believe him..
Islam is surely Shirk
ALMIGHTY ? WHY HE NEEDS THOSE POOR MUSLIMS TO KILL HIS ENEMIES AND IN THE PROCESS HAVE THEM SACRIFICED AS PAWNS, MILLIONS OF THESE PATHETIC SOILS !
@ Plain Truth,
Universal religion ? Yes, keep fighting losing battles with infidels with inferior weapons bought from Russia to dominate the world with your religion. Bought guns and bombs from the West to kill and suicide-bomb each others. No mercy for the victims of these battles and sectarian violence.
I don't see any mercy to mankind but only misery for the millions of jobless, angry and hungry Muslims. And also millions of shivering and starving Muslim refugees living in tents.
Divine book ? Do the rest of world scientists and scholars agree with you ?
No scientific errors ? Ha-ha-ha-ha ! I nearly fall from my chair !
Iran ? It is a hell-hole country. Maybe you like to live there. If you are a Sunni, they will kill you instantly.
Islam is the universal Religion/. Holy Prophet Mohammed is the messanger of ALMIGHTY ALLAH
& mercy to mankind.
Holy Quran is a divine BOOK & contains no errors & does not clash with science.
Ibn Sina is a liar will rott in Hell. He is hiding from Iran as he will be destroyed there.
All Ex Muslims are fake Named Muslims .They were never a Muslim.
There will always be believers and nonbelievers in our time..the difference between the two is clear..one can't handle the pressure the other Accepts God's message to mankind.. to everyone that reads this..Muslims are only to convey the message of Islam not enforce it on others..God guides whom he wills to the right path thus there should be no argument about what was right and what was wrong. The believe in the One'ness of God and trying to find the right path with out constant criticism will be to your benefit in health and also for the sake of life after death. I implore everyone that has any interest in Islam to seek proper knowledge from the scholors of islam rather than debating for there is no substance in a debate if you don't understand the concept of Islam all the more.. This article doesn't prove anything to me…it has been put together very sloppily …modern science is still not up to par with the explanations in the Qur'an we are still making discoveries that have been stated in the quran.. if you don't believe me do your own research iA youtube has quiet a bit of lectures.. Forgive me for my straightforwardness..but it hurts to see anyones religion being disrespected this much. I as a muslim would never saying anything about anyones religion unless I could state it so that it would become a postive thing for both parties. Thank you for read..may we all find God in our lives. Ameen
May Allah (Swt) have mercy on all of us..
Very great, but Sina, Some shias are talking about Ali written on the moon, can you please also write an article on it.
Islam cant be eradicated, no matter what you say or do. Its spreading in the West faster then any other religion, and your kids kids will become apart of it.
Read the article im not a scholar so i dnt think i should act or write like one.. I have noted a lot of insults wheras you have stated at the bottom of the page no vulgar comments most of the article is full of the word "bull" and the word "bull" is offensive and vulgar so i think its fair i call this article bull 🙂 p.s get your facts right then right articles!!
need some more
Splitting the moon is a major event. Moon can be seen from all over the Earth. Why no one saw this major cosmic event anywhere else outside Mecca? Ancient people have reported the eclipses that happened in their life time. Why there is no mention of splitting the moon in any culture?
Assuming the moon was split in Mecca and everyone saw it, why the Meccans did not believe after seeing this great miracle?
Bismillah hir rahman nir raheem (Beginning in the name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful)
My dear friends, this Splliting of Moon is a true incident which had happened, being done by the instruction of Allah subhana wa ta'ala, when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) showed a wave of hand.
All the muslims have been commanded by Allah subhana wa ta'ala to spread the true message of Islam to all the fellow non-muslim brothers and sisters living in ignorance.
It has been promised by Allah subhana wa ta'ala that Kiyamat (Apocalypse) will not come even if a single muslim lives in the world, who takes the name of Allah and follows Islam regularly. But the minute, the second no muslim remains in world, Kiyamat will come.
So my dear fellows, please try to get the true meaning of Islam, and insha'allah we muslims will succeed in spreading Islam.
Muslims are the true peace lovers, we never spread hatred. Please stop all those harsh comments on Islam and read Quran sharif and graso the true meaning. The Lord has challenged everyone to find just a single, I repeat, A SINGLE wrong thing in Quran. The people have failed in last 1400 years and will always fail. For Quran is the true revelation of Allah subhana wa ta'ala, it is his own words.
I request all my dear non-muslim brothers and sisters, to please visit the following site and read the contents yourself.
http://www.islam101.com/religions/provingGodExist…
Salam alikom, Ali Sina, you've said that you helped Muslims to leave Islam ?, and what did they do after ? they become Jews, Christians, Atheists or believe in what exactly ?. The moon split s a miracle that Muslims believe, but there are many other miracles of th eprophet Muhammad (pbuh), and the 1st and best one is the Quran.
I an all Muslims don't need to read your book, in pdf or not. I Have the Quran (message of Allah) to read and learn. I believe that there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God, like Jesus and Moses, and Abraham before him.
Before talking about this miracle of moon split, ask yourself, who created the moon, the sun, everything that science can't explain, and who created LIFE and DEATH?.
You've left Islam, you think ? NO, you're LOST without islam … I've read "why Ali Sina left Islam" (in french). pathetic, really.
If you believe in God, and this God sent you a messenger with order to kill, exile those who don't believe in God, what will you do, don't obey to God ? and you must know that non believers can leave with Muslims when they pay JIZYA.
HERE IS THE ANSWER FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU
" نَّحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ ۖ وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِجَبَّارٍ ۖ فَذَكِّرْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مَن يَخَافُ وَعِيدِ"
(50:45) (O Prophet), We are well aware of what they say; *55 and you are not required to force things on them. So exhort with the Qur'an all those who fear My warning.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRx3Fe3wzyY
try this , also listen to sri sri ravi shankar eplaining that MOhammads uncle was lord shiva's devotee .
There are videos saying mohamad prayed to moon God who was like shiva
These are just claims one has to study all this deeply to seprate truth from propoganda, sick of christian and islamic propoganda in our country even Hindus have to resort to these tricks nowdays
So does bhavishya puran also say how this cult will die ?? and when
aum,
Just asking a question and mind you I'm no expert. I have heard many educators from way back claim that The Mecca Stone has Hindu script written on it and speaks of a king from the ancient Indian empire of long ago. Have you heard of this ?.
None worthy of worship very true ,but allah is not a god . he is just a eternal pimp of perpetual virgins.
and sick muhammad is a rapist b@stard. please read your quran and hadiths.
muhammad was born after his fathers death .
he used to be bachchabaz.
if someone insult my prophet and my creator HE/SHE WILL REGRET IT
ad yeah There is none worthy of worship except Allah. Muhammad is Messenger of ALLAH. !
Maruf, I feel as though people are wary of you because you are a Muslim – I'm sure as you know, Muslims come on here and I think that some of them do knowingly lie about their beliefs, (paradoxically) in the interest of spreading them.
If you are genuine about searching all religions, I wish you the best! If we are to speak about making rational decisions, we cannot do that without subjectively examining all the options.
It seems from this comment you posted that you are genuinely looking for God and willing to (if necesary) give up the religion you were born into if it means finding God. This is how it should be for *anyone* truly interested in finding God.
I wish you all the best on your journey, assuming your posts are written with sincerity and good intention – I am NOT going to preach anything to you, just encourage you to keep searching and ask God to guide you with all your heart.
God bless.
First of all i'm a muslim & i'm an Egyptian too, and i can assure that there is no religious persecution here in Egypt as you said, of course some crimes are committed but this have nothing to do with religion, criminals are found in every country on earth, everywhere, from all religions, atheists, even from your religion there are criminals, can you deny ? the problem is that your media and press gives you the wrong impression about our islamic countries (at least i'm talking about Egypt my country, and i know it very well) that there's religious persecution committed here, just to make you hate islam and muslims. here in Egypt you can find a muslim man married to a christian woman, muslims having christian friends as i do, etc… and all this hatred by the people to the new islamic government (here in Egypt many muslims hate this islamic government and many christians like it, so it's not a rule) all this hatred is because haters don't approve their political views not for the religion itself. So please never talk again about persecution in Egypt because it is not true, and if some crimes were committed, these cases are few and on an individual scale not a large one and they do appear in each and every country in the world so please don't talk about Egypt again…
the second part is the answer to your question: "Who drew the first blood? Was it muslims or the pagans?" the answer is the pagans, because y'all know that islam in it's very first years used to be persecuted by the pagans, and this is normal to happen when a new religion is introduced, but the abnormal thing is that this persecution of the muslims by the pagans resulted in torturing and killing the muslims, that's why muslims kept it secret as long as they can, and when the pagans tried to exterminate the muslims in Mecca, they did the famous migration to Medinah, all this happened in the first years of islam, when it was still weak… now we know who drew the first blood and called for wars, it was the pagans.
According to the wars, the muslims gained victory over the pagans despite the very small number of the muslim warriors compared to the pagans which sometimes reached 3000 muslims facing 50000 pagans or so, i don't exactly remember the numbers, and the muslims gained victory only because of their right faith, and the wrong faith of their opponents. hope this was clear and helpful because it's the truth.
@ Abdullah ihsan
You are absolutely right.
whether there's a crack on the lunar surface or not, it's true it was split, if there was a crack, then this will be an evidence, and if there wasn't, Allah the almighty lord is capable of everything, and as he was able to split the moon, of course he is able to rejoin the two parts without leaving any trace of what happened. and concerning the part of your text that said Muhammad (saaw) was a normal human and he said he wasn't able to perform miracles, that's true because all these miracles including the splitting of the moon were all made by Allah the almighty and not by muhammad (pbuh). please think twice before trying to proof that islam is wrong cause you'll never be able to do that unless you are convince yourself by all the crap you are trying to say, and all i can say is that you know nothing about islam. thanks for your time reading this
May Allah swt guided you with his mercy…
I want to submit that I find this site really offensive to adherents of the Islamic faith. Whatever Ali Sina’s views, they have not been objectively projected. Try and challenge your country man Zakir Naik to a public debate based on your arguments about the latter’s faith. Going by your rilles’s theory, there is none of the pictures you showed that really looked at the “belt”; they all went zigzag.. not resembling anything that was rend asunder and then joined back together again. Muslims believe what they believe and you believe what you believe.. You seem to be taking this like some personal vendetta rather than a laudable service to humanity.
I think the best you could have done if you have a contention with an issue was to provoke intellectual discourse rather than fan the embers of hatred among the adherents of different faiths and Muslims. Whether we like it or not, the Supreme Being – Allah, God, Father, Omniscience, Omnipotent, Atnatu, Jehovah, etc – has created all of us and put us on His earth. I am sure it was not His intention to create strive but for us to recognise, respect and try to understand each other in order to live peacefully one with the other.
If we continue spewing out hatred as I read on this site, I am afraid we are on our way to self destruction.
Let us try to reason reasonably with ourselves when we have some major thing to disagree about so that both sides of the wall will benefit from understanding the other side’s point of view. That way we would create a more conducive and understanding and loving world from India to Jamaica, from Iceland to Australia, from China to Nigeria, from Ireland to Saudi Arabia, from Israel to Ethiopia, from America to New Zealand..
May the Supreme Being increase all of us in His love and understanding.
Thank you for this site and for taking time to read my comment.
When you ask a mob to believe you.
Its require to prove yourself you are not psychotic, harmful, shameless, hater, trustworthy , serve humanity.
Score yourself. Where do you stand in this pretty world. Estimate yourself.
If that is your answer, then I too can perform miracles when Allah wants. Anytime something happens favorably I can claim it is my miracle through Allah help and when I fail miserably I can say I am but just a human like others. How convenient.
So the greatest miracle Allah gave to Muhammad was the Quran? But we have shown the Quran is full of lies, errors, absurdities, contradiction and nonsense.
Cant believe how people are lied.i mean the writer of this article fools us.he says the 'moon splitting' miracle is a contradiction to Qur'an.and he tries to proves it by saying according to quran he cant perform miracles.But what is the problem with that.as far as i know, muslims dnt beleve he can perform miracles anytime.we beleve that prophets like moses,jesus and mohamed performed miracles only when Allah wanted them to.none of them couldnt do it by their will.u can ask any muslim scholar.like yusuf estes. and the greatest miracle which God gave to prophet mohamed is the Quran.how? to understand,search youtube for nouman ali khan miraculous quran,and nouman ali khan brilliance of the book , and watch?v=9D1_zBzLlr4,and /watch?v=OSLs_cgPNXI .U R NOT CREATED WITHOUT A PURPOSE.I WORSHIP GOD IN 'HIS TERMS' .contact me for mor dtls.= shamimuhammed gmail dot com
As for mentally ill how come there are millions ready to die.potent you get at least 10 are ready to die Badasssssssssss
Don’t limit yourself reading just the synopsis of my book. Read the book itself and you will see the evidence that Muhammad was mentally ill. You can’t say I have no evidence if you have not seen them.
Ali Sina brother .. I have read the synopsis of your book .. 'Understanding MUHAMMAD AND MUSLIMS' … I have been reading your blog … conclusion, I feel sorry for you .. you seem desperate to find the truth … and it appears you have sufficient knowledge about Islam … I say frankly, I have never heard directly about the disease that you claim has been struck muhammad … you also like a desperate state muhammad was insane and lost love … you accuse him without evidence … and you also have a misunderstanding of jihad … it can only be done if Muslims are threatened and colonized by the non-Muslims .. like america did to iraq, Palestine, afghanistan, pakistan and part .. and for your knowledge. .. al-Qaeda was a creation of the non-Muslims to mislead … the non-Muslim world has managed to do it ..
so..better you to believe in chicken chop, or wooden cuboard….thats all…very suitable for you ….there are so many text like this….use ur brain….
why people are desperately after assigning the divine purpose to the life instead accepting the fact that we can all find and choose our own purpose as we wish… not dictated by any one. But from our own reasoning and Humanity we can find a path for us to walk down the road of life… and what is better than helping others to complete their journey as we walk our own mile… Would that be less divine in any sense ?
Maruf go and take lessons in Logic and reasoning… you need it like many Muslims…
Mr. Ali Sina… Sir, please mail me the earlier edition of your Book "Understanding Muhammad"
You are really retarded… go some place else this site is not a place for you… You should concentrate on 72 Virgins in heaven… lol
Agree brother… war is coming…
Mr. Yunis just tell me why a non-Muslim needs to know whole life of this evil Muhammad to comment on him ? while few stories are enough to know real Muhammad… and When you Muslims (most of them are however idiots) criticize other religion and say islam is best have you read all about other religions ?? AUM has given a nice example by showing that Muhammad was evil by same technique you use to spread Islam.
And when you say Quran is 80% scientifically correct what do you mean by that… Quran is not about Science…
And tell me even a single verse from Quran speaking conclusively about Water-cycle, forget the rest of science… Now its a challenge for you Muslims.
This Umbrella is Broke. Go find yourself a better one!
Very soon you people non believers will believe the truth! Dont misinterpret things and dont give your own justification without knowledge.
Surely the person who observed this truth directly in the moon and accepted Islam is more knowledgeable than you people. Dont hide truth without sufficient knowledge on The Holy Qur'an.
Come under the Holy Umbrella of Islam.
May Allah give you sufficient knowledge to understand the truth of Islam.
Hi,
If you are asking me to “guide you to the right path,” I am afraid this is a personal journey. I can’t tell others what to do. If I did I would be the leader and they’d be my followers. But I oppose the very notion of leader-follower. Following is for sheep not for people.
I can tell you the path that I chose. You should choose yours. I decided to be a freethinker. This means that I use my own intelligence to pick the best in any place I find it. The difference between following a doctrine and being a freethinker is like eating the same food all your life or going to a buffet and sampling from a variety of foods.
I am an atheist (with small a). That is because I see no evidence of God. At the same time I don’t believe atheism makes people better. Atheists can be just as bigoted, just as intolerant and close minded as anyone else. Much of the crimes against humanity in the past century were perpetrated by godless people. Goodness has nothing to do with beliefs. I am after goodness. Beliefs are not important to me. Any person who embraces goodness is my brother/sister. I don’t care about his or her beliefs.
I believe truth is pathless. It’s like the sunshine. It shines everywhere. You don’t need to follow any path to find it. All you need to do is open the shutters of your mind and let the light of truth illumine you. Truth is in you. Why follow others?
So,Mr. Sina,what do you think,cause really,I was a muslim,but now I see ur site and came to know many truth,any advise fro me?
Salaam to Everybody!
I would first like to ask a commentator that who has said to you that the Rilles found on the surface of moon has been declared mark of miracle of Muhammed (SAW). This has been actually highlighted under a big propaganda by the non followers of Islam. Could you please put a name of any famous Islamic scholar who has forwarded his comments on its acceptance. Neither were Sir. Further I would suggest you Sir that whenever you intend to upload article next time against Islam, please speak to true scholars of Islam who may first clear meaning of saints of Islam or even the saying of Muhammed (SAW) in a true was. This may definitely help to you to convince us later on. And don't quote the verse of the qur'an about which science has not completed his experiment. This is because several things mentioned in the qur'an has been said by the lord of every thing – The Merciful Allah – was not know to science but science came to know after the information revealed by Allah. Allah don't need experiments to declare anything but you need it to explain everything. By the Grace of Allah we (Muslims) will never follow anything from science because we know you keep only experimenting on things but Allah say what may or may never come to know. We believe on only one God – Allah Subhana Wa Ta'aala. Questions to you Sir and in fact to science…
Have you solved the mystery of Bermuda Triangle now….
Do you now believe the Jinn exists…
When did you came to know that the universe is endless… (In view of humans)
Are you sure about the Water Cycle…
Who is moiz amjad and Dr. Zakir Naik…
Who reveled one Qur'an and several version of Bible… (Please try to alter Qur'an you will come to know what is the word impossible and may try to believe on the saying of Allah that I will protect the Qur'an from any alterations…
How many times has science changed the statements / explanations on uncountable topics…
It is fortunate that the wireless communications have born today otherwise you would have been saying how was it possible for the Caliph Hazrat Umer (RA) to communicate to Sariya – "YA SARIYATUL JABAL" (Please ask the master of arabic language to explain the meaning this very simple sentence too and don't quote anything you will come to know from your own library.)
Sir, I simply want to tell you the truth and nothing else. I think Allah the Exalted has reveled the Qur'an for the whole humanity till the end of this world. That is why Qur'an has been proved by many non Islamic scholars from time to time. Till date I have heard that 80% of the Qur'an is being supported by the Science… Please don't quote my half sentence for you further attempts… Please put there also that the believers do not need any support of science to prove anything. I think further miracles are for the people coming after us. Please be quite till that time.
Please Brothers and Sisters Please Say With Me…
Lailaha ill'lal lah Muhammed-ur-Rasool-ul-lah (Sal-al lahu Alihe Wasalam)
Meaning: There is no God But Allah and Muhammed (SAW) is the messenger of Allah
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
for AUM I have to say only one thing that our prophet has stopped us to say anything wrong to non believers so I shut my mouth for you and request you to say anything after a providing a poof. Please don't attribute anything to our Prophet Muhammed (SAW) unless and until learning everything about his life. Read that he killed one one man with his sword but protected the whole human kind by his teachings…..
Believe on Allah Believe on Muhammed (SAW) – Come to Know Islam from authentic sources only…
Thanks…
Yunis
Salaam to Everybody!
I would first like to ask a commentator that who has said to you that the Rilles found on the surface of moon has been declared mark of miracle of Muhammed (SAW). This has been actually highlighted under a big propaganda by the non followers of Islam. Could you please put a name of any famous Islamic scholar who has forwarded his comments on its acceptance. Neither were Sir. Further I would suggest you Sir that whenever you intend to upload article next time against Islam, please speak to true scholars of Islam who may first clear meaning of saints of Islam or even the saying of Muhammed (SAW) in a true was. This may definitely help to you to convince us later on. And don't quote the verse of the qur'an about which science has not completed his experiment. This is because several things mentioned in the qur'an has been said by the lord of every thing – The Merciful Allah – was not know to science but science came to know after the information revealed by Allah. Allah don't need experiments to declare anything but you need it to explain everything. By the Grace of Allah we (Muslims) will never follow anything from science because we know you keep only experimenting on things but Allah say what may or may never come to know. We believe on only one God – Allah Subhana Wa Ta'aala. Questions to you Sir and in fact to science…
Have you solved the mystery of Bermuda Triangle now….
Do you now believe the Jinn exists…
When did you came to know that the universe is endless… (In view of humans)
Are you sure about the Water Cycle…
Who is moiz amjad and Dr. Zakir Naik…
Who reveled one Qur'an and several version of Bible… (Please try to alter Qur'an you will come to know what is the word impossible and may try to believe on the saying of Allah that I will protect the Qur'an from any alterations…
How many times has science changed the statements / explanations on uncountable topics…
It is fortunate that the wireless communications have born today otherwise you would have been saying how was it possible for the Caliph Hazrat Umer (RA) to communicate to Sariya – "YA SARIYATUL JABAL" (Please ask the master of arabic language to explain the meaning this very simple sentence too and don't quote anything you will come to know from your own library.)
Sir, I simply want to tell you the truth and nothing else. I think Allah the Exalted has reveled the Qur'an for the whole humanity till the end of this world. That is why Qur'an has been proved by many non Islamic scholars from time to time. Till date I have heard that 80% of the Qur'an is being supported by the Science… Please don't quote my half sentence for you further attempts… Please put there also that the believers do not need any support of science to prove anything. I think further miracles are for the people coming after us. Please be quite till that time.
Please Brothers and Sisters Please Say With Me…
Lailaha ill'lal lah Muhammed-ur-Rasool-ul-lah (Sal-al lahu Alihe Wasalam)
Meaning: There is no God But Allah and Muhammed (SAW) is the messenger of Allah
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
for AUM I have to say only one thing that our prophet has stopped us to say anything wrong to non believers so I shut my mouth for you and request you to say anything after a providing a poof. Please don't attribute anything to our Prophet Muhammed (SAW) unless and until learning everything about his life. Read that he killed one one man with his sword but protected the whole human kind by his teachings…..
Believe on Allah Believe on Muhammed (SAW) – Come to Know Islam from authentic sources only…
Thanks…
Yunis
The proofs have been given in the various debates in this site.
too all muslims i have only one question what is in (makka) as per me there is a vishnu padha one is in gaya and another one is in makka ..:)
Just because there is differing tafsir about verses doesn’t mean Islam is right and that’s the bottom line of all of these if you use rational thinking and logic instead of your biased faith. Interpretation itself is the proof that Islam is false.
The proof is here. Why don't you answer my queries about it and the burden of proof is actually in the claimer side. As long as the claimer fails to prove it's still in the default state, a falsehood.
Open your eyes. The Quran says what it says. There is nothing to interpret. Stop making excuses for your religion invented during a primitive time of the world's history.
Just because of different people interpretation it does not mean that Islam is wrong or Qur'an is wrong… what ever is written in holy Qur'an is by all means true. those who criticize it or put allegations on it should come up with a solid proof
It's typical. They think they know everything and are automatically better than non-Muslims, so they just jump directly to the comments section to engage in verbal jihad without reading anything.
Their supremacism makes them so blind that they have no idea how stupid they look when they jump in without any knowledge or intelligence.
Muslims. I know you didn't follow the discussion.
Pagans.
Ooohhh, maybe the auntie here can explain it.
I am not familiar with the literature on the subject, but I would imagine that Satan was ordered to prostrate himself to Adam in the Muslim manner. Of course this seems strange considering Islam's dictate to worship only Allah.
Wikipedia's article on prostration has this paragraph in the Islam section:
"It is also important to note that in Islam, prostration to any one but God is absolutely forbidden. Prophet Muhammad himself strictly prohibited Muslims from prostrating before him, because prostration should only be performed to the Creator, not to creatures. Regardless of the circumstances, no Muslim should request, or even accept, it from others." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration#Islam
I guess Adam wouldn't have been a good Muslim if Satan prostrated himself before him, and Allah was not a good Muslim for commanding Satan to do it.
The article does say that prostration is an important part of the 5 daily prayers, so it is not clear whether bowing is sufficient prostration in Islam or whether they also have the concept of prone prostration.
I know of no equivalent to the order to prostrate before Adam in Judeo-Christian tradition. It is most likely made up by Muhammad to show how he is buddy-buddy with Allah and privy to insider secrets.
Those vast differences? Easy, it can be erased by just one assumption, prostration. That's how a muslim thinks.
This auntie didn't answer my questions again. Such a coward she is. I'll add more:
Finding similarity is very easy if you just ignore the overwhelming differences. Saying A is the same with B based on one general act doesn’t prove anything especially when you ignore the detail on that, let alone the huge gap between the 2. Start to listen once in a while. Take example of the Chinese, if you ignored the emperors (allegedly human corruption) or other lower gods (allegedly religious corruption), you’d get a match. They too prostrated to god in the very beginning. But what is the meaning of this prostration compared to another prostration? That’s the real problem.
All of these are association fallacy, when 2 things share one similarity they are exactly the same and comparable. Another fallacy like this is also located in Quran involving Mary and Imran with the assumption of comparable character (in order to hide the blunder). Association fallacy is just one of red herring fallacies, your favorite weapon.
The problem is not over yet. The similarity is proven to be an assumption, not fact. God in the Bible and in the Quran have many differences therefore making these 2 beings as 2 different personalities with different orders. Obeying the orders doesn’t erase the difference, let alone the different style of prayer.
🙂
There's plenty of material comparing Jesus and Muhammad. FaithFreedom.org has a quick summary chart that is worth a look.
That's why I said, "the method and concept is totally different". It has nothing to do with muslim's style and purpose for prostration. She thought that prostration equals to "submitting to god" in Islamic sense.
What I find strange is the order of prostration to Adam. Was this the same with prostration in musim's view?
We challenged the auntie for "first violence and blood" and so called "persecution of muslim" during Meccan period. It turned out to be muslim who had done the first violence and war. Of course the persecution was isolated incident too unrelated to religion.
Now, from all of these we finally arrived at WW2. How's that for a jump? Maybe she can jump to the moon and kiss it (after I kick her arse).
Ihsan,
You are a liar. The Banu Qurayza was put on trial? Yeah right!
What was the verdict? Men and boys who have yet to grow pubic hair are to be beheaded? Is this justice in Islam, Ihsan?
There was a lady who was screaming histerically witnessing her husband and sons beheaded.
Muhammad’s verdict? Have her beheaded also.
Right. Diversionary tactics work best when furthest from the topic being examined.
For example, discussing WWII with me has diverted the discussion from whatever else you and Juste have challanged her about.
Actually we are giving auntie a bit too much credit and benefit of the doubt. Prostration would not have been Jesus' manner of prayer. Prostration is lying prone on the ground. Jesus would more likely have kneeled for prayer, though the suffering in Gethsamane may have caused him to lose composure enough to be driven to the ground.
There was no third path. It was either continue to fight the war conventionally and let both sides experience horrific losses or drop the bombs and end it quickly. With the atomic bombs Japan lost two cities. If you look at German cities after WWII there was complete devastation.
Because we spent our money to rebuild Japan in stead of taking care of ourselves, US cities from that time are decaying and in disrepair where Japanese cities are modern and beautiful.
Banu Qurayza was a raid, an unprovoked one. The man who came with the verdict had a close relationship with Muhammad and he knew what kind of verdict he would make. Of course Qurayza Jews didn't have any choice because they were suddenly raided, it's their only hope, a false one. Remember Qainuqa? This is the same but Muhammad was prevented from killing all of them. What was the fault of this tribe? I've explained it, none but trivial matter. The rest of your post came from your ignorance on your opponent's post. Read again the reason behind the bomb, your "bravery" has no merit on this one.
Comparing this with US would do more damage in Muhammad's name. US got attacked but Muhammad attacked, Japan was evil but Qurayza didn't do nothing evil, Japan and US are friends while Qurayza and Muhammad would never be one because of his eternal hatred towards Jews. US didn't enslave Japanese women and children, US helped Japan got up on their feet. Muhammad? Don't bother asking.
Look at your silly behavior, you came here to defend Islam but now, you just busy talking about US past deeds. Can't stand the criticism, eh?
Repeated materials. Irrelevant topic. Sigh.
@ John K
SO you are a well-read person. Why don’t you then start writing on why Jesus did prostrate in the same way as Rasulullah did and Muslims do?
Please, I need a sense-making explanation here from a very well-read and educated scientist like you Sir…
Neither do I blame the US nor I agree with what they did with the bombing. Decisions do have to be made in different cases.
But the question is why this Juste keeps emphasizing mass-murderer as an evil act, but went around looking for excuses to justify such an act when done to a great number of innocent people in the two cities.
Although I agree to let the bygone be bygone, personally I would like to ask:
Was it the ONLY WAY to win the war? There could have been some other ways to win if they were a little braver that would’ve kept the number of victims a lot lesser, couldn’t there?
Had they wasted the idea of the city-bombing, they would have surely lost?.
If you want to compare this to what Rasulullah did to the Bany Qurayza, at least this particular Jewish tribe was put on trial before the execution, and the punishment was a verdict of a person they had agreed to decide on it.
Also, before Muhammad attacked Qurayza, He was asked first about the excuse for attacking them since there was no ground at all. Imagine, none of his followers knew why they should attack Qurayza.
LOL, I knew you would say that. Look, any one can prostrate to their god but that doesn't make their god as the same. Chinese didn't only prostrate to their emperors but also to their highest god, shang di. Jesus's prostration has nothing to do with muslim's because the method is different, the teaching is different and the concept is different too. You are missing my point again, the key is "the common act of prostration". Don't know something? Ask, stupid, don't teach.
Jesus, Rasulullah, and Muslims prostrate to no one, not even to emperors. They prostrate down to the Only God. Look who's talking. 🙂
Well, with muslim's skill of "super high jumping" you will get anything connected, no matter how far the distance is.
Well, their suffering is entirely different. In large measure the Indians fell because of a genetic disposition to alcoholism. There is no comparison to Islam. The issues are entirely different.
For suppressing past guilt I assume? Nevertheless, native Indians cannot be compared to the dhimmi in Islam. Dhimmi is suffering while they are not.
Agreed Juste. Thanks for making the effort to post it.
John,
There were a lot of rumors and hush-hush stuff during and after Gulf War 2, some of them are quite hard and some just outright ridiculous.
But Sada is preety solid, right? He was in fact second in command of Iraqi Airforce at the time. I was looking for an article that challenge him, but couldn’t find anything substantial to debunk Sada.
So, i guess the link stands until proven otherwise.
In fact they get too much welfare. Idleness and alcoholism are big problems because of the welfare they receive.
I can't find the name of the Iraqi official who gave false info to the US, but after taking a close look at your link, I don't think it was Sada because he didn't receive this information from the pilots until 2004. The interview I was thinking of was before the invasion and was part of the portfolio of intelligence used to justify the invasion. So it looks like your information is good.
The Shia people rejoiced when American troops arrived in Iraq. "I want to kiss them", they said.
Which encyclopedia? there are 2 when you deal with muslim.
Mass murderer? It depends on the target. Japan was also mass murderer, why do you even protect them, for your own hatred towards USA? Do you even aware that there were Japanese too in American side?
Tell me, why the Japanese don’t hold a grudge to America? Why don’t they call them mass murderer? They have no problem with that so why should you bother with it? Japan and US are allies now.
Explain it, Japanese do or don't like mass murderer (read: America)?
What’s happened to the rest of my rebuttal? Afraid, auntie?
Native Indians are safe and sound in their own land. Btw, no jizya’s imposed to them.
America won’t do that again in the context of civil war (internal). The wars America had done so far were attacking the evil people.
Jesus was not a mass murderer, assassin, rapist, misogynist etc. He also didn’t teach violence even if he was cornered. He didn’t create earthly heaven. The prostration is a common thing and had been done by many people. The difference is vast but the similarity is just your delusion.
The total is …
It’s because it’d eliminated another mass murderer, the evil one. The evil one is not evil anymore and befriends US.
And so did Chinese to their emperors. They prostrated too. Man, you are so stupid.
Wow, you again have misunderstood me, and of course as usual, cherry picked my post. Let’s see:
You wrote, “Is she trying to say that America no longer engaged in war ever since?”
Focus, auntie, focus and read again why did I write that. It was a response to your fallacy about “violence”. So you created a limited context here which is “Muhammad’s wars” vs “American civil war”. Don’t add anything outside these 2, ok. This is what you said in response on “Muhammad’s wars”:
“18 something wasn’t it when they had their civil war?”
“You are so silly if you ONLY see America as a peaceful nation full of humanity without noticing what the founders of the Nation WENT THROUGH”
See? The key is your own stupid words called “went through”. You were arguing that America is not peaceful (as a nation and society) because of the civil war. By this logic I can call all humans on this earth as not peaceful because ancient humans fought and killed for foods and lands. Did you even read this, auntie? The past is the past.
So, let’s go back to your stupid assumption. Was I trying to say what you said? Not a chance.
You wrote, “Can anyone help her define ‘the past’ and ‘the future’ to this young girl?”
Wow, after you made a selfish assumption, you acted like you were right. Here auntie:
American civil war = the past = won’t happen again (civil war) = no prophet teaches that
Muhammad’s war = the past = will happen = prophet = mission
Pointing your finger won’t wash Muhammad.
You wrote, “After the civil war (18 something): Did they stop?”
Yes, they stopped. They never had any civil war anymore.
You wrote, “Hiroshima and Nagasaki”
This is irrelevant. You are so stupid for not knowing the difference between war and civil war including its reason. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a reaction because the Japanese attacked them first. The evil empire of Japan had massacred countless people for that. You should thank America, if not you would be slaves of Japan. Remember Romusha?
Every nation goes to war for different reason but Muhammad went to war for selfish reason. Blaming America won’t clear Muhammad. The rest of your list is irrelevant and America attacked dictators and evil rulers. Saddam was not saint and he wanted to attack neighboring countries, Vietnamese communists killed their own kind etc. I repeat again, the civil war won’t happen again.
Last thing, you really don't know the meaning of "past"? Wow.
Is it really? Thanks for the info John. I’ll look it up.
You’re right what happenned was justifiable anyway.
AI, you are really showing that you are not a well-educated or well-read person.
If you would stop reading Muslim propaganda and start reading what real historians say, you would be on the right track.
The atomic bombs dropped in Japan saved far more lives, both Japanese and American than were killed by the bombs. This would be a good place for you to start reading:
Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire, by Richard Frank
http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/227.asp
Juste, I think that is the interview that has been debunked. I forgot the motive for him giving the story, but it turned out to be false.
But if you study the Iraq war, there are plenty of reasons for Iraq to have been invaded regarding violations of the Gulf War 1 peace agreement and violations of UN sanctions, no-fly zone, massacres of Kurds and Shias, etc.
But the one point that is often missed is that other WMD were found such as chemical arsenals, and it was also confirmed that Saddam was trying to reconstitute the nuclear program, but so far had not been successful.
Another point that is often missed is that Saddam encouraged the belief that he had larger stockpiles of WMD because he miscalculated and thought that would deter us.
Al-Qaeda links at the time seemed weak, but evidence of greater connections than had been thought have subsequently been discovered. Of course, Saddam was also notorious for paying for suicide bombers to strike Israel.
Ihsan,
Point 1 and 2:
Time and again, i smell desperation in your post. You failed to address me properly in which i gave an excellent comparison of Muhammad to a mass-murderer.
Instead of coming clean to the questions given, you were practically pleading me to cease my attack. Again my judgement, and i believe everybody here can see. You did not answer, because like all muslims, you have no answer.
Therefore i conclude, Muhammad was a mass murderer.
Point 3:
You pleaded me to cease my attack because i know you were writing something beyond your capabilities. Therefore i asked you to proof it, in which you failed miserably. So your childish remarks came out as a result of your frustration which is also a trademark of muslims.
Therefore i conclude, you are a liar because you dare to say something in the absence of evidence.
Sorry Ihsan,
I wish i can share your inferioty complex with you just to ease your pain, but i can’t.
Muhammad and muslims are the biggest mass-murderer to date.
Ihsan,
Did you not read my earlier posts?
What happenned was an act of war. The Japs have long since forgotten the event. They get along fine with the US ever since.
Now what happenned in Hejaz when Muhammad lead his army of muslims when they made the surrendering 900 men and boys of Banu Qurayza to dug trenches and have them decapitated was a mass-murder. That was and act of genocide.
Ever wonder why the Jews of Banu Qurayza clan never forgave Muhammad and muslims? Because not one of the clan remain alive today. Because they were buried in batches somewhere in Saudi Arabian desert. Their descendents are muslims now, because their foremothers were raped by muslims. You are the one that have a mass-murderer for a prophet.
So i give back your question to you:
Please be confirmed. You DO or you DON’T like mass-murderer?
@ Juste
When you dislike Stalin, Hitler, and Asahara as mass murderers, why did you thank the biggest mass murderer America?
Ihsan,
Yes, i know where they live. In their land.
Muhammad on the other hand:
*Sahih Muslim 19:4366: It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al- Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
*Abu Dawud 2:2999: Muhammad expelled every Jew living in Medina.
*Abu Dawud 2:3023: He commanded to expel the polytheists.
@ Ihsan
When Stalin, Hitler and Asahara are considered mass murderers… Why only Muhammad who made it legal to rape, loot, kill and oppress?
@ Juste
You said:
"Of course i agree, it was an act of war in retaliation.
It helped you too though. Your children and your children's children so that they won't have to bow down to a Kafir authority, that way you can continue practicing your death cult freely.
Thanks to the Americans. "
So you thank this 'mass – murderer' ?
I thought you said you disliked 'mass murderer' in your sentence:
"Shoko Asahara is the perfect example of a mass-murderer"
Please be confirmed, you DO or you DON"T like 'mass – murderer?
@ Juste
When Jesus, Rasulullah, and Muslims do prostrate…… why you, Asahara, and Jim Jones don't?
Ihsan,
Why not mention Afghanistan so list will be complete?
Afghanistan was attacked by the commies Soviet.
US once again are kind enough to provide the Taliban muslims with armaments and weapon handling training.
And what did the US get for freeing muslims from oppression?
The Taliban muslims were in support of an act of war in the name of Allah when they destroyed WTC.
After the US took out the Taliban muslims, again US are kind enough to build schools, clinics and society centres in Afghanistan. A muslim soil.
Despite of how ungrateful muslims are to their helpers and how they talk of curses against the US.
US are helping those Afghans goat herders where no muslims even care.
@ Juste
I don't jerk around either, Juste, not with someone like you. 🙂
Alright, I will look for your references about the two terms using your points of views, and we'll talk, alright?
Don't want to tell me where the American Indians live now? on their own land?
Ihsan,
Of course i agree, it was an act of war in retaliation.
It helped you too though. Your children and your children’s children so that they won’t have to bow down to a Kafir authority, that way you can continue practicing your death cult freely.
Thanks to the Americans.
@Ihsan
When Asahara and Muhammad are considered psychos… Why Jesus didn’t?
@ Juste
You said:
"If the Japs was not bombed at the time, the entire Pacific must have been crawling with Japanese fleet right now. Your country will not be independent as of this moment. Besides, Japan attacked first. Remember Pearl Harbour?"
Are you saying you agree to this bombing (killing a mass group of people for the goodness of others)?
Please say if you do… 🙂
While your other 'smart' friend said that America has learnd something from the VIOLENCE and wouldn't do it in the 'future'?
@ Juste
When Jesus and Rasulullah both do prostrate…. why Asahara doesn't?
Ihsan,
*Hiroshima-Nagasaki:
If the Japs was not bombed at the time, the entire Pacific must have been crawling with Japanese fleet right now. Your country will not be independent as of this moment. Besides, Japan attacked first. Remember Pearl Harbour?
*Vietnam War: was a war upholding democracy in southeast and east Asian region. If that war did not take place, South Korea will most likely be communist too.
*Gulf War 1: was a war TO HELP AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY Kuwait from a invasion of Iraq. Bush Sr. was too stupid not to let two muslim nations kill each other.
*Gulf War 2: was a war to stop Iraq to build WMD’s, before the invasion, Saddam was clever enough to moved his WMD’s to Syria. Here’s a confession of a former Saddam’s general
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in-syria-sada-says/26514/
@Ihsan
Why can’t you compare Asahara to Muhammad?
I can… 🙂
They both psychos.
Ihsan:
1) Look for definition of peace in encyclopedias
2) Look for definition of justice in encyclopedias
3) If you understand those two mean, let’s talk. I don’t jerk around.
@ Juste
About the ‘debunk me’, before I answer…
1. Define Peace please. And to what extent that it should be kept?
2. Define Justice please. And can you present one Government who is just and why they can be said as it?
3. I said it would probably have been better. How concerned the US Government about the life of these origin owners of the land? Tell me Juste where most of these people live?
@ Juste
Why can't you compare Jesus and Rasulullah Muhammad?
I can…. 🙂
They both do prostrate down to their God.
Referring to my post about American civil war being their means to establish their shared dreams, someone presented the following:
"So what if they had it? IT’S OVER NOW AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN because there is no divine being behind that event who’d put the final, eternal mission to its follower. Look at the real problem at hand not the past. "
And she adds:
“America is a land of immigrants so it was unavoidable to see that war. FROM THAT VIOLENCE, Americans LEARNS THAT LESSON and WON’T REPEAT IT again in the future”
Is she trying to say that America no longer engaged in war ever since?
Can anyone help her define ‘the past’ and ‘the future’ to this young girl?
After the civil war (18 something): Did they stop?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Vietnam War
Gulf War (1990 – 1991,just considered recently, wasn't it?)
‘Younger Bush' attacking Iraq (more recent)
Done in 'the past', huh?
@ Juste, please be confirmed first which society do you want to pick as full of humanity?
Wow, you are repeating yourself.
You wrote, “I'll leave the issue about the idols as it is. Read it a couple more times if it really takes you that long to understand what I wrote. Fears for what’s going to happen when failing to please the idols mean nothing to you? Frightened those idols getting angry when not pleased didn’t control their life?”
Not true, the issue of the idols is far from done as I’ve pointed to you. The idols were non existent, so the idols controlled no one. The polytheists actually had controlled themselves using the idols, just like you using Allah. And when you look at it, it was actually the polytheist who controlled the idols. Why?
1. The polytheists defined which one is good and bad
2. The polytheists defined on what was the cause of the idols’ anger
3. The polytheists solved that “anger” according to their own view
Ever hear anything from the idols or Allah? All you can hear is from the poly/monotheist’s side.
You wrote, “And you are trying to say that only Muslims did the killing? and that no pagans or others killed Muslims?”
Muslims did the killing? Yes, they did. They even did the first violence and war. The proof is right here. Yes, it’s the post you avoided.
You wrote, “And you are referring to only Islam like sina does?”
Sina’s site is criticizing Islam and its incident in real world. Of course it’s about Islam. You can ask this stupid question to animal lover too if you know what I mean.
You wrote, America. This is the neighboring country of that where sina lives, isn’t it? More or less, the histories behind the two countries are inter-related. Sina seems to enjoy living and currently makes a living there, doesn’t he?”
Tu quoque fallacy. 2 wrong don’t make 1 right. There is no end to this fallacy of yours.
You wrote, “Can we now make it as our sample of your so-called land of freedom? When was it? 18 something wasn’t it when they had their civil war?”
So what if they had it? It’s over now and it will never happen again because there is no divine being behind that event who’d put the final, eternal mission to its follower. Look at the real problem at hand not the past.
You wrote, “You are so silly if you ONLY see America as a peaceful nation full of humanity without noticing what the founders of the Nation WENT THROUGH.”
Tsk, tsk, tsk. Wrong again auntie. America is a land of immigrants so it was unavoidable to see that war. From that violence, Americans learns that lesson and won’t repeat it again in the future. Human history is full of violence but we don’t see from that point, we see from present condition. I can do what you do. Since ancient humans fought and killed each other for foods and lands that means no humans are peaceful now. Man, you’re really stupid.
Oh yeah, native Indians didn’t get revenge. Why? We can see that even Arabs and Persians wanted revenge after Muhammad’s death. Beside, American Indians are having the same rights as everyone now.
All of these show your desperation. It won’t make Islam better you know.
Not running away? What are you doing all this time? Don’t forget your own initial purpose here. Denial is not answer.
You wrote, “I said “….they wanted to CUT THE CRAPS THAT the idols had control over their lives."
This is mere assumption. Pagans converted because of the reward Muhammad offered. No reward no conversion. Didn’t he say, “Enter Islam and you will be kings of Arabs and masters of Persians” or “enter Islam and you’ll get your share”?
At that moment, no one thinks about who’s controlling who, it’s all about basic desire of human. The polytheists didn’t care about this evil desire. I ask again, why did westerner convert to non monotheistic religions?
The belief of “god’s getting angry” is stupid just like your belief. It’s just the same, the thief is shouting to another.
You wrote, “This Japanese man had his teachings LEGALLY RECOGNIZED in his country. What in the world made him think he needed to kill anyone??”
See? This is stupid statement again. Remember your own religion? It is submission to god’s will. If his god told him to do something, he must do it. Why do you even shrug your twin brother?
Japan is tolerant just like pagan but Asahara didn’t even do what Muhammad did, insulting the Japanese system, belief and emperor. That didn’t stop him to do his god’s will.
I say, bingo, you have revealed what Islam really is. To make killing in Islam legal, all you have to do is “not recognizing Islam” while Islam itself doesn’t want to recognize other religions except people of the book (dhimmi). Bravo, auntie, you have shown the truth.
You wrote, “especially when no physical attack had been made to him/his followers?”
Then why did muslim start the violence when nobody harmed them?
You wrote, “During the trials, some of the disciples TESTIFIED AGAINST Asahara. (Doubts and regrets emerged from his followers, or probably they got scared of having the same verdict as that on their leader)”
Er, this is irrelevant. You said, “some” that means “some” of them did not testify against him. That means he was successful. Beside, the relation was not the same with Muhammad’s companion who had stayed with him for years and given the promise of reward. The condition was also different, the sect he had was defeated. No one knew how Muhammad’s companion would react when this happened.
In Muhammad’s time, the apostates and hypocrites were many. Rebellion was happened after his death. This proves that Muhammad failed to convince everyone. Beside, I’m rather disturbed by the behavior of his daughter Fatimah and son in law, Ali. These 2 confronted Abu Bakr about Muhammad’s inheritance and snubbed all Muhammad’s words about that. Did that mean something? Care to explain?
I’ll add more queries to your sorry self, auntie:
There is something that disturbs me when reading about “Ali substituting Muhammad”. Oh, of course most of the things in Islam are disturbing for any rational person, but let’s talk about this particular disturbing incident.
Muhammad knew his attempt to rebel to the Quraish at the end of Meccan period would be met with final solution from the polytheists (only some of them). So this was the best chance for his little puppet named Allah to show his power. We all know that Muhammad never perform any miracle to convince them nor he had done any moral teaching at that time. Are you even aware about this weird preaching? These craziness and weird action didn’t manage to bring polytheists to Islam. In fact, it is common sense to reject his preaching because he brought an empty doctrine.
Back to the “best chance”, apparently, instead of protecting Muhammad through some miraculous way from the polytheists, Allah had chosen a very human way to do that, a double (like the crucifixion story). Why would he pick this? Sure, he knew the polytheist never targeted any muslim in the first place but that’s not the point. Not only that, the alleged “took away their sight” is really hilarious when you read what Muhammad had done to them. This incident also marks the simplicity of their mind. They were very naïve to be tricked like that.
This reminds me about the incident in Taif. You know, not even once a miracle happened to Muhammad. When people threw stones at him, nothing happened. Gabriel surely watched him in every step to guard against danger. Imagine at that time, Gabriel just stood there beside Muhammad and watched calmly when the stones slowly flying through the air like matrix movie and hit Muhammad. “Ouch, that’s going to hurt”, says his heart.
That's fact auntie. The pagan had no problem with Muhammad before he insulted their religion. I know you didn't read mine again. Pagans (in general) didn't have any problem with him. Also, look at my query about Ali. The boycott is the result from Muhammad's mouth and his follower's violent behavior. Remember first blood? That's you initial topic but look at this, you had strayed off the path again. That's running away.
Irrelevant.
You wrote, “Rasuluulah never said he had been someone else in previous life”
You are missing the point again. Can you at least stop your assumption about your opponent?
False again auntie. Shoko Asahara had a "belief" that make him doing evil thing. The belief itself can be many things, such as reincarnation, prophet hood, possession, incarnation, etc. The word for all of these is just one, "falsehood".
Pagan belief is the same with muslim belief. It's unproven so there is no "proof" here. Faith is not proof.
Now, what if the idols were really controlling their life? How do you prove it as wrong? Don't use circular logic again.
AI,
Shoko Asahara is the perfect example of a mass-murderer, so was Muhammad. Different is, i don’t think Asahara was a rapist and a paedophile.
I really would love to compare Muhammad to Jesus. But i can’t really.
Muhammad had nothing on Jesus. The very argument will disgrace Islam even more.
@ Juste
Ha ha ha
Did you by any chance find in this Japanese's story that he couldn't by a can of soda?
ha ha ha
@ Juste
Ha ha… I love this guy! Trying too hard to convince people here that the Rasulullah was peacefully accepted by the pagans like in the case of Asahara by the Japanese.
Please tell me Mr. Juste 'the great historian'……. tell me something about the 3-year boycott against Muslims.
AI,
Here’s a list of “debunk me’s” for you as a homework:
1. You said Islam love peace, i say this is a lie.
2. You said Islam love justice, i say this is a lie.
3. You said being dhimmies and paying jizyah would have been better for the Native Americans (supposedly), i say this is a lie.
AI,
Point 1-2;
Your question:
“When his organization was PEACEFULLY ACCEPTED, what triggered Asahara to instruct his followers to kill others?”
My answer:
“Asahara claimed prophethood, so was Muhammad. Asahara claimed he was “divinely inspired”, so was Muhammad. Asahara had his followers to killed innocents, so was Muhammad”.
Explanations:
Asahara was peacefully accepted by the Japs, Muhammad was also peacefully accepted by the Pags.
I have proven to you that the Pagans were peaceful and did not persecute muslims right?
If you say muslims were persecuted. Alright, i did ask you how many died during the persecution period?
In which you did not answer, because you have no answer, that means muslims were not persecuted.
Asahara’s followers were first to draw first blood, Muhammad’s followers were first to draw first blood.
Are these facts add up to you? Because i think you are immune to reason and logic.
Point 3: Right, let’s leave it that way. I knew you don’t have answers. You just say what you personally think on matters of history, without bother a look in history.
You are indeed a muslim.
@ Juste
For 1 and 2:
I'll put my two sentences about Asahara into one so you no longer have excuse to negate the fact about this man by which I say he is in no way the same as Rasulullah.
GIVEN that he and his group were LEGALLY RECOGNIZED ( implied here is the absence of oppression, probation against them, etc ) what made him think he had to kill some people?
OR put it differently…
When his organization was PEACEFULLY ACCEPTED, what triggered Asahara to instruct his followers to kill others?
For 3:
I'll leave the issue about the idols as it is. Read it a couple more times if it really takes you that long to understand what I wrote. Fears for what’s going to happen when failing to please the idols mean nothing to you? Frightened those idols getting angry when not pleased didn’t control their life?
Like I said before, Islam loves peace, of course. But in its very principles, Islam loves justice more. Don’t see only what is seen as bloody Juste. For us, a corruptor leader looking descent, honored, humane, talking nice, and never staining his hands with blood is far more evil than the seemingly barbaric way of fighting for justice. This corrupted leader cheats on his peoples and by that, he cruelly lets his people live in poverty. In his particular exemplary role as a leader, Rasulullah teaches those whose potential roles in society is leading to be the servants of the people they lead, not to colonize them.
Mindless zombies and go around killing others?
And you are trying to say that only Muslims did the killing? and that no pagans or others killed Muslims?
And you are referring to only Islam like sina does?
Let’s take a look at one example of this society you have been idolizing as full of humanity.
America. This is the neighboring country of that where sina lives, isn’t it? More or less, the histories behind the two countries are inter-related. Sina seems to enjoy living and currently makes a living there, doesn’t he?
Can we now make it as our sample of your so-called land of freedom? When was it? 18 something wasn’t it when they had their civil war?
If yes, I’m sorry to say:
You are so silly if you ONLY see America as a peaceful nation full of humanity without noticing what the founders of the Nation WENT THROUGH. To become what they are now and in the pursuit of their SHARED DREAMS, they too had abandoned a great number of lives. Not to mention what they did to those land owners (the Indians). Are there still many of them benefiting from this so-called successful humanity of America? Being dhimmies and paying Jizyah probably would have been better for them. Look how they are now. There are around a half million of them in the USA living close to starvation level. Good treatment for them so far , huh?
So Juste,
Tell sina to let Islam alone if today’s learned Muslims want to interact among themselves and/or with others in order for the best of them to come out as just rulers, and/or to finally cooperatively uphold their Islamic teachings, please….
Wait, I notice you again presented Jim Jones. Well, Juste…. pushing your luck, huh?
AI,
You also said “Rasulullah’s best companions was ever narrated to regret believing him. I repeat… NONE OF THEM. They loved him more than they loved themselves”.
Of course muslims generally feel no remorse in comitting atrocities. They do it happily and believe they are rewarded. They would kill themselves and take innocent children in the process and shout “Allahuakbar!”. They don’t know what they are doing. If muslims have self-conscience, they would leave Islam immediately.
Jim Jones’s cult members were also rejoicing when they passed around poisonous Kool-Aid, have their children drink it and drink it themselves. These are textbook cultic behaviour.
AI,
1) and 2)
Focus AI, who asked you about Asahara’s followers in court or whether they were sorry or not?
I can tell you the same thing about how ex-muslims feel so liberated when they learnt that Islam is a mind-controlling oppressive and destructive cult. Please read their stories.
You also said “What in the world made him think he needed to kill
anyone??” Well,
Asahara claimed prophethood, so was Muhammad.
Asahara claimed he was “divinely inspired”, so was Muhammad.
Asahara had his followers to killed innocents, so was Muhammad. In fact, the killings of innocents by the people who follow Muhammad still going on until this day.
3) What i want is for you to prove your statement of:
“They merely wanted to stop their long stupidity to worship and pray to items they made with their own hands and cut the craps that those idols had control over their lives”.
These are your own words, don’t twist it around. I highlighted the words “those idols had control over their lives”.
Your answer was:
“They started to realize that it was foolish to go on believing those idols as having something to do with their lives.”???
Let’s see where those two statements were altered, shall we:
“Had control over their lives”.
and
“Having something to do with their lives”.
Can it be anymore further apart from your original statement?
It’s okay that you have no answer, i get it.
Now i am accusing you the same crime as you accuse the pagans of.
I say the Quran is the idol of muslims. It controls their lives. It’s a proven fact. Muslims think Quran is so holy that even menstruating women are not allowed to touch Quran, it renders muslim’s logics invalid, also altered them into mindless zombies that go around killing others in the name of your Allah.
Even if those idols were controlling the pagans, at least there are no mention in any literature that Arabic Pagans did what muslims are now doing. They could be tolerant and civilized in their own time.
In Islam though? What more can i say…
@ Juste
For 3:
Relax, I’m not running away. 🙂
My post is still there for you to read. I said: "They merely wanted to stop their long stupidity to worship and pray to items they made with their own hands and cut the craps that those idols had control over their lives."
Did I say the idols had control over their lives?
I said “….they wanted to CUT THE CRAPS THAT the idols had control over their lives."
meaning :
"They started to realize that it was foolish to go on believing those idols as having something to do with their lives."
Come on Juste, don't let your uncontrolled hatred towards Islam embarrass yourself here. It was a simple expression.
For 1 and 2:
Again, I really have to say that you really need to be a little smarter.
1. No, I wouldn’t believe him.
When you ask me why… here:
This Japanese man had his teachings LEGALLY RECOGNIZED in his country. What in the world made him think he needed to kill anyone??
especially when no physical attack had been made to him/his followers?
2. During the trials, some of the disciples TESTIFIED AGAINST Asahara. (Doubts and regrets emerged from his followers, or probably they got scared of having the same verdict as that on their leader)
NONE of Rasulullah's best companions was ever narrated to regret believing him. I repeat… NONE OF THEM. They loved him more than they loved themselves. Please search through hadiths as many as you like…. any of them showed a sign of DOUBT and REGRET?
Got it, smart boy?
AI,
Stop the nauseating obsequisness and answer these questions:
1) I say Muhammad was a maniac. He was no different from Shoko Asahara who claimed that in his previous lives, he was Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. He went on killing people in Tokyo subways
and as of this moment awaiting execution in Japan. Would you believe what Asahara claimed?
2) If you don’t believe Asahara’s claims, why do you believe Muhammad if he claimed to be a prophet? Important question for you to answer to understand your reasoning inferiority.
3) Your earlier post clearly said that the Pagans’ “idols had control over their lives”.
You did not say “Those pagans believed that if they didn’t please the idols, then Allah wouldn’t be pleased, as they believed those idols are intermediaries between them and Allah”.
There is a big difference between those two sentences, Ihsan. Don’t run away. Now, i want you to proof that “”idols had control over their lives”.
PS: Your answer of point 1 and 2 was:
“Rasuluulah never said he had been someone else in previous life”???
Answer unacceptable, Ihsan. Because it answered nothing.
I – again – laughed when you finally went beyond your capacity by equaling Rasulullah with that Japanese person. You were trying too hard this time, Juste.
Be careful.
Rasuluulah never said he had been someone else in previous life. He said he was the last prophet (neither a reincarnation of anybody else nor God's incarnation) just like Ibrahim, Ismail, Ishaq, Moses and Jesus.
What made you become more silly in your attack Juste? Your hatred?
You asked for a proof that those idols believed as controlling the pagans's life.
Why didn't you do your homework reading?
Those pagans believed that if they didn't please the idols, then Allah wouldn't be pleased, as they believed those idols are intermediaries between them and Allah. That is one proof. You want other implications? Please read….. he he
Shouting "wrong" doesn't make one's wrong. Is that all you got? Shoko Asahara is perfect example of religious justification. Saudi is red herring.
Where is your answer eh? Why do you keep running and giving false info like charter of medina, abu bakr, first blood etc? I told you to answer this. When are you going to improve, auntie? Remember your purpose for coming here.
I wish the Mongols had completed the destruction of Islam. Shame it has survived to our day.
@ Juste
What's wrong Juste, I thought you were improving in your arguments. But then I saw:
"Take Shoko Asahara for example, he said that in his previous lives, he was Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad."
Juste, please present better arguments. 🙂 Why did you make the same mistake as in the hajj and Saudi government?
"I forgot the fact that muslims torched the Great Library of Alexandria."
And Mongols destroyed Baghdad for that and put an end to the so called Islamic civilization. What a karma.
Again circular logic, Islam was actually not perfected since the last verse is about inheritance. This case is like a person who forgot something and decided to add it later. Anyway, perfection in here means “perfection” according to the 7th century standard. Slavery is legal, raping wives and slaves is legal, having multiple wives is legal, beating wives is legal, killing apostates is legal, conquering others is legal, killing infidels is legal etc.
The very reason we criticize Islam is because the ideal system of Islam is inhuman in nature and it seeks to dominate the world. Of course it’s our homework since Islam seeks to conquer the world. Don’t try to divert the attention here.
You wrote, “Why were there Islam scientist like Ibnu Sina, Aljabar, and others?”
This is misconception because the country they came from was not Arabia nor their inspiration came from Islam. Now, why is that? Ibnu Sina came from Persia and other scientists came from various conquered nations such as Iraq. Before the invasion of muslim Arabs, these civilizations were already at its peak. This is like Mongols who invaded China and used its technology and claimed it as Mongol’s.
You wrote, “Why Robert Briffault even sees Islamic science as the foundation of modern science?”
Another misconception. Science has no group. There is no such thing as “fill the group” science (ex. American or Japanese or Greek or Egyptian or Indian). If you referred to a person and includes his origin, that would be okay. But that’s not about the person. Everywhere, science is the same no matter who invented it. Einstein was not called Jewish scientist and Isaac Newton was not called Christian scientist. Why do you even single out muslim? If you must put the “group identity” in science (which is fallacy) you should call big bang as Catholic theory originally.
You wrote, “But above all that Juste , I have witnessed that by relying on science only, a great nation of scientific discoveries such as Japan was also not able to protect themselves from the attack of tsunami like what happened to us in Aceh.”
Not true, If Japan had no superb knowledge and discipline in scientific field they would lose even more. Japanese island is full of earthquake unlike Korea. If you put Indonesians in there can you imagine the loss? Imagine they build ordinary houses instead of quake proof houses like Japanese has. Imagine they lack discipline on maintaining nuclear power plant. Imagine they have rampant corruption. Imagine they go berserk in situation like that unlike Japanese who are very discipline even when they face disaster.
Science progresses over time. In the past, people thought that it is impossible to cure diseases and even saw it as god’s curse, but now with medical science they can. Technology brings new level to humanity. That’s undeniable because with it, you can find that Islam is false, Israel can defeat its much larger enemy, China can progress that far, and US can be a superpower. One more, you can criticize Islam and stay safe from assassins.
Relying on science cannot fully prevent disaster (at least right now) but even if you put religion in it, it’d stay the same. Natural disaster doesn’t have eyes.
Red herring again, auntie. The problem is Muhammad not his followers who had done something Muhammad never ordered. We are charging Muhammad and Islamic standard, not Umar the violent brute.
Commentator? So far you didn’t answer my questions, so how can you call yourself a player? You are a ball boy, not a player. In here, we are all commentators, the only players were the people in that history book, not us and they were all dead by the way. Not all commentators are bad you know. Sure, if you only see that from weak league like Indonesia. What if the commentator got it right? What if the commentator is experienced person? What if the commentator cannot comment neutrally because he is inclined to one of the club? Not all commentators are worse than coaches. You have to see the content of the comment and the result of the coach to know that.
You wrote, “Of course Umar (RA) found something appealing about Rasulullah’s teaching that based other aspects of life on the fact that Allah (God) could not possibly have allies. Despite his then growing sympathy towards the oppressed Muslims, he was on his way to kill Rasulullah when he heard the beautiful Surah recited by his sister that finally got his heart all melted.”
Like I told you before, Muhammad lured his followers with reward both in earth and heaven. Muhammad tried to bribe Quraish chiefs or his enemies at Trench. The only appealing thing from Muhammad was his reward, without it he was not even interesting. Umar was a violent man from the beginning and he often said, “May I kill this person, O, Allah’s apostle”. Isolated incident proves nothing. Also, Umar was not knowledgeable nor philosophical on religions so he is not reliable.
“Something appealing” is not evidence. It is subjective just like any other follower in religions, politics, football fan etc. This kind of statement is cheap. I see something bad when reading Quran and Muhammad’s personality.
You wrote, “You should dig more why people converted. They merely wanted to stop their long stupidity to worship and pray to items they made with their own hands and cut the craps that those idols had control over their lives.”
Subjective words, auntie. So why did westerner convert to Hindusim or Buddhism? Converting to religion comes from many reasons and in Islam it was the reward that did the business.
You wrote, “I thought you said you had good logic……”
Auntie, yours is not logic but biased thinking because you can’t read critically. Logic doesn’t contain emotional conclusion like that. Logic concludes based on data not blind affection.
You wrote, “Well you can say what I said is faith-based while I can in return say that your accusation too was all made up. Fair enough?”
First thing you should know that we analyze the history with critical and rational mind. Second, we are pretty much neutral before taking conclusion. We only use what’s really there. The accusation was just a bunch of available data made using critical thinking. Your faith is different and cannot go beyond this point. The proof is already there such as Charter of Medina, Abu bakr’s dissension, Christian priest or the latest one, the first blood by muslim. Nope, it’s not even fair to equate faith with mere data.
You wrote, “Yes, Rasulullah did kiss the stone for a reason I (or perhaps other Muslims here?) would later explain to you if you wish. But has this kissing ever been assumed as a way of worshipping the stone? Please note the big difference between KISSING a stone and BELIEVING carved statues as god’s allies.”
That’s the exact problem. Why did he even kiss it? This is the remnant from the time of ignorance. Why would he do this useless thing? Muhammad claimed that the time of ignorance is full of sins and hated practices by Allah. Why didn’t he throw the stone out so that no muslims would kiss this ever again? There must be something special on that stone to be treated that way, something divine. Don’t get trapped with the form, auntie. This is clearly an act of idolatry. Making god’s partner or venerating a stone or making a holy tomb so that people can go and pray to that specific place is an act of idolatry. It means you idolize something beside god to some extent and thinking that it has divine element, maybe some “shared power” from god. No matter how small it is, it’s still idolatry. You can create petty reason as you like but that doesn’t change this.
You wrote, “Now tell me, if someone or a group of people here initiates a movement that is threatening their positions, do you think the corruptors will do nothing about it? And so as in the case of the pagans and especially the Jews. The Jews were tolerant because no one before Rasulullah had shown significant threats that would unmask their wrack systems or uncover the Jews’ prejudice against the rest of mankind.”
Whoa, whoa, stop your assumption for a while. Corruptors cannot be equated with polytheists on this matter. Why? It’s because the crime of the corrupter is as clear as the sun, it is visible to everyone, and it is proven. On the contrary, Mecca had no such problem. The only problem they had is polytheism. In your believing eyes, this is a problem but in neutral eyes, this is not. You cannot prove their guilt, you can only believe unlike the corrupt officials. You can’t just say, “I have faith that Indonesia is corrupt”. That’s stupid.
Also, don’t start Jew blaming here since no one here talks about them. Jewish people in Arabia were no doubt tolerant too. They saw no problem on polytheism as long as they didn’t mock each other. This already conformed the teaching of Torah which is the “exclusivity of Jews” including the teaching of business in their religion. It’s not their fault if the Arabs were poor and they were rich. That’s just competition. Want to defeat them? Do it fairly though business, not attacking them without warning. Jews were not prejudiced at that time and even now. They befriended many nations throughout history and even doing inter marriage with other cultures. They can praise even gentiles if they are on their side.
You wrote, “But unless you are really really sure about your belief, I wouldn’t recommend you do that.”
Sure, he would be dead in an instance like any other minority in Islamic world. If Juste used it on pagan Arab at that time, he would survive and if he did it differently than Muhammad he would avoid conflict. Angry muslims are killers and hoodlums, you know. They are violent even if they are minorities (ex. first blood).
You wrote, “And what in the world made you – again and again – come to a silly conclusion that the pagans were not going to kill him? Which narrations have you been reading, Mr. Smart Juste?”
This is the result of chronic reading avoidance. From Islamic history, the polytheist never wanted to kill him in the first place and only wanted to do that after being advised by Abu Jahl at the end of Meccan period. 13 years with no significant incident proves everything about Meccan’s attitude in general. You didn’t answer my questions regarding this problem but you asked back? Which narration did you read anyway? Was it from belief narration aka imagination? Weren’t the goods he had returned in his last days belonged to the other polytheists? Having amnesia, eh auntie?
You wrote, “They certainly would, but they were still afraid that doing so would spark angers on the parts of Rasulullah's relatives despite their hatred towards him. However, when learning that Rasulullah was going to migrate, they decided to never let him go and were finally confirmed to kill him.”
Oh, talking without proving eh? Where did you get that, your assumption? The discussion on killing Muhammad happened at the end of Meccan period. One person wanted to expel him, one person wanted to lock him and one person wanted to kill him. Remember, this happened after the long years of holding back their anger. Now, if they wanted to kill him from the very start, the discussion wouldn’t be there in the first place and Quraish chiefs wouldn’t try to negotiate with him when Abu Talib’s dying. There are plenty way to kill this s.o.b secretly or just slay all muslim including Muhammad and problem would be solved. No one missed the part, auntie, it’s only you who didn’t open your mind to the big picture.
You wrote, “By assigning from each tribe one respective executor so no particular tribe would be held responsible for the killing. How coward, wasn't it? If you – again – missed this part, all I can say now is buy some Islamic books if you want to go on with your arguments. They are not too expensive though. Or maybe you can google more, but of course with a more open mind this time.”
See? You are cherry picking the history again. The intention of that act was to put the burden to all parties involved, a fair division. All of them had issues with Muhammad so it made sense if the burden was carried together and blood money could be made, therefore preventing further problem and fighting since blood money erased all. I see no problem with that since Muhammad was the source of all problems here and the plan sounds fair too. You failed to see who’s right and wrong from the very beginning. It’s like, “we are in this together and we protect each other”. Good alliance I must say. There is nothing wrong in alliance, auntie, not even cowardice fit the bill here.
You wrote, “What is implicit in Ali substituting him on his bed, and why Rasulullah decided to be the last person to migrate (accompanied by Abu Bakr, the person he trusted most in terms of eeman)? This simply portrays how Rasulullah was so conscientious about his ummat and prioritized them against his closest family and relatives. He preferred himself, his most beloved cousin, and his most trusted friend to be the last Muslims to migrate. Tell me Juste, if you are as smart as you have claimed, does this conduct represent that of a man who likes hiding behind or relying on other peoples’ protections?”
Wrong auntie. As I’ve explained to you. Ali was fine and he could travel back and forth just to ensure the goods Muhammad’s had returned to other Meccans. The safety of muslims were not on the line. It was Muhammad’s not them. Muhammad forced his followers to migrate and threatened them with verses. Now, it leads back to my questions which you’d avoided so far. If the followers’ safety was in danger then why didn’t they kill or at least persecute Ali? Why did his followers reluctantly migrate? Why had he used compulsion in order to make them go to Medina? Picking Ali was for protecting his own self. He knew the polytheists (only several people) wouldn’t kill Ali at all. Their target was Muhammad alone. Those muslim followers were proven to be okay when they migrated, nothing prevented or killed them. If he was the first one to migrate he couldn’t make sure his followers’ migration. Imagine that Muhammad left first, what would happen after that? He would be in Medina without his followers. Now, what if his followers changed their mind and stayed (judging from their reluctant behavior)? He couldn’t go back to Mecca and had to start from zero. That’s a bad plan.
Auntie, my I remind you once again that you are supposed to answer the questions and issues here? Not only that, you are supposed to address the problem initially brought, not presenting your own view and trying to shove it on other’s throat. Expressing opinion is not the same with answering question.
You wrote, “Didn’t you ever read that Kadijha’s business was healthily growing under the new management of this noble young man (Rasulullah at the age below 25) and how Khadija was initially impressed by the way he traded her merchandise? NO SINGLE narration has revealed that his success in managing his wife’s business ever made him forget and leave his simple life.”
Kadhija was already wealthy even before Muhammad came. She had hired men like Muhammad before that, so this act was nothing special. Muhammad’s position and job’s description was transferring the goods to other cities like salesman. Still the brain of the business was not him in the first place. Later on, Muhammad had changed and kept neglecting his duty to meditate alone for days in cave seeking enlightenment (?).
His simple life? I don’t think so. He should reject Khadija’s proposal if he ever wanted a (true) simple life. What he wanted was recognition, fame and status. Wealth was only a tool to do that. Being a merchant means that, let alone a prophet.
Left by his rich wife, Muhammad couldn’t stand up and poverty was inevitable. After he had migrated to Medina he couldn’t build a business empire because he didn’t know how to start it. He was only an employee back then. Finding out that he couldn’t get money from his old job he resorted to war and violence, taking what others’ had since this was the easiest way to make money. Even after he conquered Arabia, he still didn’t have any business empire except from slave trade. War booty and dhimmi tax was his main revenue. Why was the dhimmi needed? It’s the business mindset they had which Muhammad hadn’t. Remember auntie, see the big picture. Don’t follow blindly this biased source.
You wrote, “No Arab of course had dared to do as Rasulullah did because none before him received the truth from Allah. I have noticed that before Rasulullah’s prophet hood, there were people of honor who had refused to worship those idols and were keen to emulate how Ibrahim had worshipped his God, but finally simply isolated themselves from the pagans because they didn’t know? And none of these people had claimed to be a prophet sent to change their society simply because they realized they were not”
You are missing the point again auntie so save your silly faith based history which has nothing to do with the problem. No Arab dared to do that because they respected each other’s religion. In the society of religious freedom, this thing is a must to create peace. On the contrary, Muhammad dared to do that because he knew the polytheists were tolerant in nature as I’ve proven to you (which you didn’t dare to read). He thought everything would be smooth because “history” taught him that no religious fighting ever happened in Arabia. But he crossed the line and if he stepped back his reputation and desire could be destroyed.
Your circular logic is pathetic because the premise “he received the truth” came from nowhere except your belief. That’s not the way to prove something. Things don’t become true just because you believe it.
You talked about Hanifism. This is exactly the source of Muhammad’s inspiration. Before Muhammad got his first (harsh) “revelation” (which means he was a polytheist at that time) he met Zaid bin `Amr bin Nufail and learnt monotheism. In there, he was aware that there was an opportunity in this so called “small religion”. Since it wasn’t organized and had a place to fill, he decided to take this new banner.
AI,
You said the the Pagan’s idols control their lives. Proof please?
I would say that Quran is the idol of muslims. It controls your life. It’s a proven fact.
They kill because of that book, they raid because of that book, they torture people because of that book. They are bigots and misogynist zombies because of that book, they choose to be stupid because of that book etc. I can go on forever with the list.
You said that Islam has been perfected. Right! That’s what you think. There is only one Islam. Muhammad’s. And it has been the same since the day it was conceived. Which is about a long way back at the 7th century. And this kind of Islam wants to take over the world and establish a global Islamic dominion with any means necessary. Incl. universal deceits, wars etc. Much like what Muhammad did. In case you haven’t notice, this is a bad thing. Why? Well, no Jews and Christians want to be dhimmies because they reject Islam, and no Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Agnostic etc. want to be dead because they reject Islam.
So, this is everybody’s homework. Muslims have been failing in doing their homework for 14 centuries now. And that’s a long time.
About Islam denying knowledge. Right! I forgot the fact that muslims torched the Great Library of Alexandria.
AI,
Your last few comments went absolutely everywhere. And many of the arguments that are neither in support or debunk anything.
This symptom is called ignoratio elenchi.
So i will be addressing only to what i deem important in this matter.
You said Muhammad received revelation from God, i say Muhammad was a mentally ill induvidual. There are a lot of cults in the world who the leaders were a lot like Muhammad. Take Shoko Asahara for example, he said that in his previous lives, he was Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad.
He went on killing people in Tokyo subways and as of this moment awaiting execution in Japan.
Now i ask you.
Would you believe what Asahara claimed? If you don’t then why do you believe Muhammad?
Muhammad was a textbook psycho. He was violent, paedophiliac, hallucinating, delusioning of grandeur, suspicious, catatonic and aggressive.
Once again, you mention Ibrahim.
I know that you muslims believe that everybody from Adam to Muhammad were muslims. Even Moses and Jesus.
Now tell me. When was Quran and Islam conceived? You muslims will believe anything no matter how absurd that sound.
I must say you are an expert in Islam. Logics in Islam that is, which is needless to say is completely illogical.
I was not concluding when i said the pagans never meant to kill him when he was in Mecca. I know, obviously you don’t. I have given examples that the pagans were ready to negotiate and tolerant group of people. Muhammad was not that kind of people. Makes sense, he was insane. So he refused their proposal regarding freedom of religion.
The problem with faith-based argument is you’d say the the Jews were descended from apes. I’d say no they were not. Then you’d say of course they were, Quran said so. See the problem here? This is exactly why reason and logics suppose to come in. But hey, i guess this is what i get debating muslims.
Muhammad kissed the black stone, muslims kiss it what more can i say? Muhammad must’ve found the stone to be so attractive.
That's it? You even forgot what you came here for.
@ Juste
About public appearance to defame other religions.
There is no need to do that. Islam had been perfected confirmed with the last Surah revealed. All one has to do is practicing the Islamic teachings in respect to his/her capacity or function in society. A husband has obligations in his household. A business man with his sound business. A resident should be good to his neighbors. On top, those who are appointed as rulers have to do their bests to be just and generate prosperity among their peoples as they live on peoples’ taxes and zakats, not to mention their control over a nation’s natural resources. Again, this is Muslims’ homework, not yours, gentlemen.
About Islam denying knowledge.
Why were there Islam scientist like Ibnu Sina, Aljabar, and others?
Why Robert Briffault even sees Islamic science as the foundation of modern science?
And why Will Durant, Fielding H. Garrison, Hossein Nasr and Bernard Lewis held that Muslim scientists helped in laying the foundations for an experimental science with their contributions to the scientific method and their empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry?
But above all that Juste , I have witnessed that by relying on science only, a great nation of scientific discoveries such as Japan was also not able to protect themselves from the attack of tsunami like what happened to us in Aceh.
So, may I have your point about this ‘over admiring technologies’, Juste?
@ Juste
About Umar bin Khattab and people converting.
There are too many histories about him that portray how he lived his life after being elected as the Umah’s leader. He even gained high recognition from western historians for his famous achievements. Help me find other rulers from the ancient times to this day that come close to him in terms of concerns towards his people.
Juste, please be a player, not a commentator. You have seen how soccer commentators now ‘sound’ like they know better than soccer coaches, haven’t you? Again, I don’t mean to offense commentators, what I am trying say is saying about something is always a lot easier than executing it. Please also tell sina about this.
Of course Umar (RA) found something appealing about Rasulullah’s teaching that based other aspects of life on the fact that Allah (God) could not possibly have allies. Despite his then growing sympathy towards the oppressed Muslims, he was on his way to kill Rasulullah when he heard the beautiful Surah recited by his sister that finally got his heart all melted.
You should dig more why people converted. They merely wanted to stop their long stupidity to worship and pray to items they made with their own hands and cut the craps that those idols had control over their lives.
@ Juste
You answered me in three parts. So can I also reply similarly? first is about a -f discussions, second about Amirul Mukminin Umar and people converting, and third about public appearance to defame other religions.
Here is the first:
For a b c:
Didn’t you ever read that Kadijha’s business was healthily growing under the new management of this noble young man (Rasulullah at the age below 25) and how Khadija was initially impressed by the way he traded her merchandise? NO SINGLE narration has revealed that his success in managing his wife’s business ever made him forget and leave his simple life.
No Arab of course had dared to do as Rasulullah did because none before him received the truth from Allah. I have noticed that before Rasulullah’s prophet hood, there were people of honor who had refused to worship those idols and were keen to emulate how Ibrahim had worshipped his God, but finally simply isolated themselves from the pagans because they didn’t know? And none of these people had claimed to be a prophet sent to change their society simply because they realized they were not.
And what in the world made you – again and again – come to a silly conclusion that the pagans were not going to kill him? Which narrations have you been reading, Mr. Smart Juste?
They certainly would, but they were still afraid that doing so would spark angers on the parts of Rasulullah's relatives despite their hatred towards him. However, when learning that Rasulullah was going to migrate, they decided to never let him go and were finally confirmed to kill him. By what? By assigning from each tribe one respective executor so no particular tribe would be held responsible for the killing. How coward, wasn't it? If you – again – missed this part, all I can say now is buy some Islamic books if you want to go on with your arguments. They are not too expensive though. Or maybe you can google more, but of course with a more open mind this time.
What is implicit in Ali substituting him on his bed, and why Rasulullah decided to be the last person to migrate (accompanied by Abu Bakr, the person he trusted most in terms of eeman)? This simply portrays how Rasulullah was so conscientious about his ummat and prioritized them against his closest family and relatives. He preferred himself, his most beloved cousin, and his most trusted friend to be the last Muslims to migrate. Tell me Juste, if you are as smart as you have claimed, does this conduct represent that of a man who likes hiding behind or relying on other peoples’ protections?
I thought you said you had good logic……
For d and e:
Well you can say what I said is faith-based while I can in return say that your accusation too was all made up. Fair enough?
Yes, Rasulullah did kiss the stone for a reason I (or perhaps other Muslims here?) would later explain to you if you wish. But has this kissing ever been assumed as a way of worshipping the stone? Please note the big difference between KISSING a stone and BELIEVING carved statues as god’s allies.
For f:
Juste, If I’m not mistaken, we are from the same country. Admittedly most Muslim leaders here are corruptors (far from emulating what Rasulullah and his truthful Caliphs were practising as leaders). Now tell me, if someone or a group of people here initiates a movement that is threatening their positions, do you think the corruptors will do nothing about it? And so as in the case of the pagans and especially the Jews. The Jews were tolerant because no one before Rasulullah had shown significant threats that would unmask their wrack systems or uncover the Jews’ prejudice against the rest of mankind.
About my suggestion that you further your ‘if’ in advising Muslims in mosques….. have you become more confident now?
But unless you are really really sure about your belief, I wouldn’t recommend you do that.
Kiss, kiss, kiss, even after paganism was gone, the kissing still continues until this day. A true symbol of idolatry.
It's really funny for a muslim, who often run from addressing the issue, asking someone else to do that. What a weird brain mechanism.
Come on, answer the question here. No one respects your cowardly, yet repetitive act. Show something positive once in a while. Here’s the summary:
1. Polytheists of Mecca were tolerant people. There was no religious fighting at all. It’s completely zero, null, ex nihilo, empty, void, like your brain etc. All religions could be practiced prior to Islam, a true symbol of religious freedom.
2. Polytheists of Mecca didn’t have problem with Islam at first until Muhammad’s mouth attacked their gods and traditions.
3. Polytheists of Mecca didn’t start the violence first let alone the war.
4. The so called persecution of muslim was actually a cherry picked isolated incident and cultural practice inherited from their old system of slavery and caste which Muhammad didn’t abolished it.
5. Even after years of holding back their anger to Muhammad’s mouth, they still wanted to negotiate. Your religion is yours, our religion is ours. Stop disturbing us, they said.
6. From all of these we can know that the only source of the problem were both Muhammad’s arrogance and muslims’ violent nature.
From these 6 points, which one is not right? Can you prove it rather than repeating it?
Now, back to my unanswered question:
Let’s enter a dream realm and pretend that polytheist really (generally) hated muslims, then why didn’t they massacre all of them including Muhammad? Why did they wait for 13 years just to corner Muhammad out of town? Why didn’t they kill or at least, persecute Ali?
Were polytheists intolerant? No, they weren't. Are muslim intolerant? Yes, they are. Did polytheists perform assassination to the critic? No. they didn't. Did Muhammad perform it? Yes he did. Who had done the first violence and blood? Did Muhammad lure people using bribery? Yes he did, using either earthly wealth and power or material heaven. No one entered Islam at that time without getting some reward. Come on, don't pretend that you don't read it.
You know what’s ironic about all of these? You muslims call Jews as stiff necked people but never realize that you yourself is stiff necked believer too. The difference is located in the brain. Your brain performance is really poor in responding to the issues here. Fallacy after fallacy keeps pouring down from you.
Mr. Ihsan,
Any coward can come up and publicly defame any other religion other than Islam and get away clean. Even you, You can go on national TV and disgrace Buddha if you want to. Nothing will happen to you. The kafirs have long since tolerating their religion for scrutiny. But Islam is a new ballgame. If muslims were tolerant to scrutiny, Islam wouldn’t make it past 15th century. It is primitive, it is brutal it denies knowledge.
This is addressed in Statistical Islam:
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/pdf/Sta…
Mr. Ihsan,
I didn’t address your argument about Umar Khattab was once a Pagan, strong and have self defense abilities later converted to Islam because i see no point in backing up your argument whether Islam was preached by Muhammad peacefully or not.
One or many reasons, people convert. Umar Khattab saw something that he might find appealing in Islam. That’s it. Certainly it was not the peacefulness because Muhammad was dividing people, stirring up troubles and incidents with the pagans took place afterwards.
And my argument using a “conversational mode”, i was just trying to arouse your logic and empathy. If you can be neutral and intellectually honest, you will see that it is a fair argument.
If you don’t like the “allahuakbar” part, ignore it.
I wasn’t trying to make the impression that Muhammad had a large number of followers at the time.
You can’t really say that his followers were few and call it a fact. How many is many? How many is few? We can never tell for sure but certainly his followers were growing.
Mr. Ihsan,
a) b) c) Muhammad was protected alright. Regarding Khadijah, at least Muhammad was financially secured and had much spare time to recruit followers and to da’wah. But his uncle was so much respected that before he died, the the sundry pagan notables came to him to settle their differences of faiths and looked for middle way so that their people and Muhammad’s people can both worship freely. Muhammad was so hated by the meccans.
No Arab dared to do what Muhammad did to them (ie. Villifying their ancestors’ gods and religions etc.).
The Meccans was so tolerant that after his uncle died, they did not kill him when they had the chance.
But Muhammad was a stubborn man. He kept doing what he was doing until the Meccans were uncomfortable to Muhammad. Tensions occured afterward in the once peaceful region.
d) e) I know muslims believe that Kaaba was built by Ibrahim and his son Ishmael. This is a faith-based argument Mr. Ihsan.
At the time of Muhammad, his tribe the Quraysh was in charge of the Kaaba, which was at that time a shrine containing hundreds of idols representing Arabian tribal gods and other religious figures. Muhammad earned the enmity of his tribe by claiming the shrine (Kaaba) for the new religion (Islam) that he preached. He wanted the Kaaba to be dedicated to the worship of the one God alone, and all the idols evicted. Personally i do not care about Muhammad thought about The Black Stone (Hajr al Aswad). But didn’t he kiss it? Makes sense why in Hajj countless of pilgrims try to kiss it.
f) In this case i am referring to the area surrounding the Kaaba. They were generally tolerant people.
They worshipped and traded with each other there. It was somewhat a “green zone” during 7th century Hejaz.
@ Juste
For a b c:
While it’s true that Abu Thalib’s status among other tribe leaders did help reduce what the Pagans would have done to him, Rasulullah never totally relied his safety on his uncle’s protection. Again, Juste how come you missed (or probably too ignorant to notice and read this implicit braveness of his) the part in which Rasulullah told his uncle when advised to give up his preach:
“Oh my Uncle, By Allah, if only they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand on condition that I abandon this matter (Islam), until Allah has made victorious or I perish, I WILL NOT abandon it.”
Khadija (RA) was not the only rich person among the Quraish, besides she was a lady. Juste, perhaps you have hidden yourself behind a woman’s back once? 🙂 Sorry to have smiled when reading this because maybe it is you who likes hiding behind a lady’s back.
Furthermore, did you ever read (perhaps from some other false sources) that when Rasulullah went to Ta’if he was accompanied by his uncle or his wife or even by his companions? Come on Juste, you said you were smart in understanding what is implied in history… If you still don’t understand….here: he went there alone with high awareness about ALL RISKS.
For d:
Kaba was built by Ibrahim (AS) and had been contaminated with made up idols around it
For e:
The paganic relics were those idols worshiped and believed as God’s allies. Black stone was and is never believed to be something like that.
For f:
Please be a little careful when you said the pagans, early Christians, and Jews were tolerant people. You should strengthen your point here by presenting a fact what Jews and early Christians thought about those other than their ethnics.
If you really want to claim that you know about Islam, you should also have to find out when was it that Allah ordered Rasulullah to face Kaba when praying. Read Albaqarah, beginning of Juz 2. FYI, Albaqarah was sent down in Madina’ time.
Then you said: “Imagine if i was going to some mosque and politely advise them to do the same as Muhammad had done?”
Ha ha Juste,
Rasulullah bravely DID CONVEY the truth about the pagans worshipping false gods and he understood ALL RISKS therein as he was doing it. He did it Juste, and you and everybody else have learned what he achieved, where as you can only say ‘imagine if……“.
Why don’t you just go ahead with ‘your if’ Juste? if you really feel that you are on the right path, why hesitate and what keeps you from in doing it? But before you do, I’d like to suggest you to make sure that you are sure about your belief. Be careful, people’s reactions vary. Rasulullah had surely taught us about this.
Sina also likes saying similar imageries from behind his computer. He he If he were righteous, I believe that he would come out and be a little braver.
Auntie Ihsan, let me ask you another question:
Why did Muhammad force muslims to fight the pagan and even threatening them with hell? From the story, we can know that pagan didn’t hate muslim because of Islam and didn’t expel them either. If pagan did persecute them (generally, not isolated incident like yours) why didn’t these musims hate them? This hatred would save Muhammad’s compelling words on fighting pagan.
Slavery and human class was inherited in Arabian Peninsula. It had been there for centuries. Even in present days we can see that throughout Arab world when they persecuted foreign maids. This type of practice was common at Muhammad’s time. Even after they converted they still did this practice and Muhammad didn’t do anything about it. He endorsed persecution of slaves. Now, what had happened to the early muslims was this practice. The so called “religious” persecution of muslims was actually cultural practice by the Arabs coated with their anger towards Muhammad who had insulted their way of life. Of course the victim of this persecution was not only muslim since slaves and low class people existed in many religions. So, why highlighted muslim only? It is simple, the author was muslim himself, the entire history of Islam was made from a biased source such as this.
Unlike you, we as non muslims have to be satisfied with this biased source (since no other side of the story exists) and trying to be neutral when seeking the answer for the problem. If the pagan was really evil people, of course we would attack them too. But they were not. They were just some people who had been confined to their own surrounding and upbringing. Sooner of later, they would change just like the rest of humanity.
No Ihsan, it is me who should be asking you to learn Islam with brain attached.
FACTS POINT 1:
a) Muhammad had a powerful uncle and reputable among the pagans (Uncle Abu Talib)
b) Muhammad had a rich sugar-mommy (sugar-mommy Khadijah)
c) Muhammad was safe to recruit goons and practiced his vile teachings under protection of a) and b)
d) Kaaba was IN FACT paganic tribesmen place of worship
e) The Black Stone that muslims come to pay visit to during the Hajj was somewhat a paganic relic
f) Arab Pagans, Jews and Christians were tolerant people and they co-existed. They have designated somewhat a “green zone” within 20km radius of the Kaaba.
THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM WAS:
Muhammad was asking (advising in your language) the Meccans to denounce their ancestors’ gods, be muslims and surrender Kaaba.
(Imagine if i was going to some mosque and politely advise them to do the same as Muhammad had done?).
This spells problem at the first place.
POINT 2: (left unaddressed)
POINT 3: The muslims drew first blood (FACTS). It was Sa’d bin Abu Waqqas who picked up a camel bone and struck a Pagan and drew first blood. Bilal was an unknown figure at the time.
Repeated materials again. Re-read the past discussion. The first blood is in war. Muhammad was proven to have an attacking stance from the very beginning.
Your Bilal case is irrelevant and I've pointed to you that this is not about religion but economic reason. His master feared he would leave him but accepted another slave as compensation. Also, even in weak position the new convert like Hamza was violent too. He resorted to physical attack just because Muhammad was criticized for insulting pagan's religion.
Muslim of course did not do that to pagan because they had no power. Why do you even repeat the obvious BS like this? When they came to power they erased all pagans and made people of the book as dhimmi. This is fact. Muhammad threatened foreign ruler, Jews and pagans to enter Islam after he got an army. He even attacked tribes that had nothing to do with the conflict.
His "imaginative conversation" is a parable for muslim's stance on paganism including the initiator of the problem. You are having a hard times understanding things here.
I'll give another question: Why didn't they kill Ali when he substituted Muhammad? If pagans hated Islam why didn't they do it? Everyone know you use the same source but we also know that you are cherry picking it.
All your post is nothing more than isolated incident. If you want that then I can give you the first violence in this conflict. It was done by muslim named Sa’d bin Abu Waqqas when some pagans interrupted the praying. At that time pagan still had no problem with Islam until Muhammad disparaged their gods and no Bilal yet. So, the first violence was done by muslim and the first blood in war was done by muslim too. Satisfied?
All of these are facts and sourced, nothing imaginary at all. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's false. BTW, brain illusion is another matter not this. It has something to do with life and death, not "fact about Islam". Being stupid is understandable, but acting like a smart arse in the same time is not. Got it auntie? You didn't even dare to refute my post about "illusion of the brain" but you talked about that in here just like a coward. Coward never dare to confront it directly.
@ Juste
About first blood….. did you mean to say ‘false first blood’ or ‘real first blood’?
If Yatsir's Family and Bilal were still alive, you could ask them.
The Caliph Umar bin Khattab was one of the Pagans who would tell you honestly what he had done to Muslims before he came into Islam. He was the most frank companion of Rasulullah for which fact he later in his Islamic life was called al-Faruq. And please note that this great man was not in any position to be threatened by any body knowing his braveness and self-defense skill. He came into Islam when Muslims were still small in number and weak. Any implication that he was forced?
Read also about Rasulullah’s uncle Hamzah who was ‘triggered’ to become a Muslim by witnessing what his relative pagans were doing to this noble nephew of his?
So, again, what do you mean by who drew the first blood?
Are you asking Muslims to get rid of the fact that Bilal was pressed with a heated stone to leave Islam? Or are you going to say that Yatsir's family being tortured and his wife being stabbed from her back with a heated spear was not an act of initiating first blood? And those torments were done to them for merely saying:
“Our God is Allah, no god beside Him.”
Answer that first….. by also noticing that NO MUSLIM did similarly to the pagans.
Please don’t be more stupid to refer these important events as unnecessary craps. Those are FACTS. All single details about Rasulullah should be taken into consideration if you want to argue about him. All single details, Juste. I am inviting you to go deeper on this if you like.
ALL that I have presented here are narrated and also used by others (Muslims and non Muslims) and sina to have a deeper understanding about Islam and Rasulullah.
To us, frankly speaking, the craps are those 'imaginative plays/conversations' you and your other least-informed friends frequently use to falsely describe a situation. Is this probably what ‘she’ means by brain illusion?
PS:
Juste, did you realize that – with that silly ‘imaginative conversation’ in which you described Muslims forcing and saying “Allahu Akbar” – you are fooled by your brain illusion to come to thinking that Muslims outnumbered the Pagans at the beginning?
All debaters in this site know that Muslims started very small in number. That is FACT. How could they possible have ordered the pagans to surrender Kabah at the beginning?
Mohamad calims that he did it not Allah, but Emr2 Alqays said it in his poem 30 years before Mohamad, Quran is all lies copied from the old books and the Torah,
For the dodge ball player, auntie of the market:
When Abu Talib was dying, several Quraish chiefs came to Muhammad to negotiate the problem. This is what they said, “You know the trouble that exists between us and your nephew, so call him and let us make an agreement that he will leave us alone and we will leave him alone; let him have his religion and we will have ours”. In this day and age, we call that “religious freedom”.
What did he answer? He rejected the proposal and kept inviting them to Islam plus he wanted to conquer Persia. These people were bribed by Muhammad, “You may give me one word by which you can rule the Arabs and subject the Persian to you”. Again it’s proven that Muhammad was the aggressor. He planned to rule others from the beginning.
These Quraish chiefs didn’t take this offer and leave peacefully.
??? Plenty of that around!
Mr. Ihsan,
I am going to cut the chase and unnecessary craps and go directly to root of the problem.
1) You said, “The pagans were advised to leave worshipping the many gods”
Right!
Suppose i am a Meccan pagan.
I was going about my business that day, after that, at noon i came to Kaaba to worship my many gods.
Suddenly this guy who indentified himself as Muhammad (M) and his goons who indentified himself as muslims (MSL) came to me (J) and said:
M: “From now on, i advise you to to denounce your false gods, surrender Kaaba to us as our place of worship, and join us as muslims”.
MSL: “Allahuakbar!”
J: “What! What are you talking about? Why?”
M: “It’s obvious that your gods are false and our Allah is “The One True God”.
MSL: “Allahuakbar!”
J: “This is insanity! I have been worshipping here ever since i can remember. My father have been worshipping here and my father’s fathers had been worshipping here also. This is the religion of our ancestors”.
M: “Unacceptable! I must insist because Allah had told me so”.
MSL: “Allahuakbar!”
J: “What is the proof of your Allah is real? I have my gods too. And i believe in them. I will not surrender my faith easily”.
M: “You’re gonna have to take my word for it. Because i am His last prophet”.
J: “Are you sure that you are not insane? I mean, you are telling people to leave their ancestor’s faith, surrender our house of worship (Kaaba), and become your follower?”
M: “I will not stop until our demands are met. This is our Holy Commandment. Either you believe me and do as i say or else”
See the problem here?
2) My question makes sense enough right? In Nigeria, Iran, Sudan, Egypt etc. religious persecution happened because they were unwelcome to a new religion, so there are always people that are either aside from being harrassed they are also killed. Therefore from your answer, all irrelevant point taken and set aside and i repeat my question:
How many muslim(s) died during the period of so-called “Muslim persecution in Mecca by the Pagans”?
Plus, i add Sanada’s legit question:
“Who drew the first blood? Was it muslims or the pagans?”
1. The pagan tortured "some" muslims because of economic reason and those muslims were low class people in the first place. Persecution like that is no surprise. Pagan never had any problem with Islam until Muhammad started to attack their religion.
Of course no pagan was tortured since Muhammad was alone and weak at that time. When you got no power you couldn't do anything, that's common sense. When he got power he started to use threat and bribery.
You still missed his point. The Meccan wanted to negotiate and split the religions, one for them and one for Muhammad. Your religion is yours and mine is mine. They are religiously tolerant people. They wanted to accept Muhammad as long as Muhammad stop the cursing. The frustration came because they didn't like their religion being insulted but they didn't want to kill this s.o.b too. They were in dilemma. No matter how you put it, the Meccan was not the source of the problem. Unproven belief doesn't justify insult and your silly belief is false too. So far, Muhammad failed to prove his. Using falsehood to justify his action is a fallacy.
2. The war started by Muhammad by raiding caravan. First, Muhammad had left and ordered all belongings to be abandoned at Mecca. Second, Quraish never cared about him anymore once he was out, Third, the first blood of war was done by muslim. This is analyzed from the initiator of all the problem not jumping in the middle and said "war kills". You can't solve problem with that.
Imagine two kids were fighting each other. Both of them were wounded and one of them broke his arm. Then came their mom and asked them about the fighting. Why should mom do?
– Assuring them that fighting takes damage and applaud the winner or
– Asking thoroughly about the root of the problem to know the culprit.
Which one is justice? Which one is promoting abuse and oppression?
One more, auntie. You are repeating it again. Pagans were not arrogant, they were naive. Their number was their default condition but they didn't know anything about war and deception. Read my parable about thief and cops. I know you didn't dare to read.
"Interestingly, although China had put the muslims in their place harshly, no muslim dare to shout, "go to hell Chinese"."
Right. Just like the Chinese and Russians are not treating Somali pirates with kid gloves the way we do.
@ Juste
1.The pagans were advised to leave worshipping the many gods. They refused, but few of them accepted and some of them secretly worshipped Allah at the beginning. As Muslims’ number started increasing, the pagans put pressures on them even by way of torturing in order to force Muslims converting back to paganism. Does this imply freedom to worship Allah was granted by the pagans?
You should have asked how many pagans were tortured to come into Islam. The answer is None.
Besides, upon their frustration, the pagans offered Rasulullah to worship their gods and in return, they would worship Allah. To this, Rasulullah said no guided with the revelation of the Sura Al-Ikhlas.
2. By this, what are you trying to say? Comparing the number of victims of pagans during the wars?
That Muslims killed larger number of pagans during the wars?
Juste, these wars were insisted by the pagans. Why are you now blaming Muslims if the arrogant pagans (with bigger army) finally lost? When two groups of people agree to engage themselves in a war, everybody understands that war takes lives.
Most of them are not Han, Uighur for example. Beside, the Chinese love their culture more than religion, that's why the mosque is built according to Chinese architecture,, not middle eastern and the position of teacher and student is very obvious like in Confucianism.
@ John K and others
Some of Chinese Muslims are Chinese. 🙂 🙂 🙂
A quick note though, editing is limited until you got the reply. After that, you cannot do anything with it.
Mr. Ihsan;
Please address the matter at hand.
I do not delete comments.
I did not activate intensedebate.
So, it would be impossible for me to delete or edit anything in this site.
Now will you please answer the questions given.
Some of them are Mongols.
Same to you, auntie. Don't remember your own mistake, eh? Also, look at his user name, he can't delete any of his comment. Making mistake on this simple thing is hilarious.
@ Juste
You said:
" 1) Didn't Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, leader of the Pagans, came to Muhammad's uncle saying that Muhammad and his goons were free to worship Allah, but let the Pagans have their freedom of worship too?
2) How many muslim(s) died during the so-called "Muslim persecution in Mecca by the Pagans"?"
Before I answer you, are you sure you want to keep your comments posted? Or you realize that you have made the same mistake again and decide to delete them?
Interestingly, although China had put the muslims in their place harshly, no muslim dare to shout, "go to hell Chinese".
Chinese Muslims are Turks.
Plus we don't need Muhammad's oppression of people.
Want to take a look at interesting sample of muslim deception?
Right. And now jihad has come to China. The latest terrorist attacks have linked Uighur terrorists to al-Qaeda, the Taliban and other Islamic terrorist groups in Pakistan.
I agree, Chinaloi. In graduate school we read a book called, "Beyond Culture". I thought it would be a warm fuzzy book about enjoying all the world's beautiful cultures. Instead it was a book about how culture can oppress the individual and how people need to rise above their cultures when they are not positive. Boy, can Islam ever learn a lesson here!
Thanks for your kind words, Juste.
@Sanada10 – 😉
After seeing what everyone thinks of her, including the new user, I can only grieve to the possibility of human's brain. What kind of brain mechanism she has? I mean, at least normal people don't lie this much, running when cornered and still have no shame repeating the same thing. But hey, that's muslim for you. Even if you showed the light they would think it as the dark.
One thing for sure, you just don't stop shouting the truth not only to your target but to the readers because silent readers are bigger than us.
Let it go Sanada,
Taqqiyah is not only a form of Islamically-induced deception, addressing something else to avoid coming to terms to where it hurts is also taqqiyah too.
Still ignoring and changing direction I see.
@ Chinaloi
Forgive me if I wrongly called you 'Sir'. Does Chinaloi mean "Chinese Girl" as in loi yan (chinese girl) and lam yan (chinese guy) in Cantonese?
Again,
Peace
As if she's gonna answer it. She's looking for individual bashing. Trying so hard to convince one at a time, resorting to useless repetition and face masking.
@ Chinaloi
Thank you for your salaam Sir. I am informed through your comments that you admire technology so much. Who wouldn’t? There’s nothing wrong with that. So long as technologies provide better living, why not? Muslims are now benefiting too. 🙂
But I have also seen the negative impacts of the technologies starting to be noticed by today’s scientist that our world is heating due to excessive chemical wastes. I am not against technology either, but having witnessed that Japan (whose technology is deemed as the most advanced among the North Asians) also could do nothing to prevent tsunami just like us in Aceh… then what is the point of too idolizing technologies?
You may say my comment is inane Sir. Be my guest. If you don’t believe in Allah, Angels and Jinns, no one has the right to place a belief in your heart, except Allah. But for us Muslims, despite those advanced technologies, we are told to really prepare ourselves for the better life waiting for us in the hereafter. This life you rather excessively love… is temporary. 🙂
I totally agreed with you Sir when you said Chinese don’t have inflated ego, and I have really seen this particularly in Chinese Muslims. This truly portrayed your claim. They even had no egos that have prevented themselves from coming into Islam. 🙂
Peace Brother
Brother AI,
Just as I posted my comment, I caught sight of one of your inane talk:
"I know it’s natural for man and woman to want to look good and stylish. But in Islam, trying every effort to look good doesn’t count that much because we understand that beauty doesn’t last forever. When a woman reaches 50, her look matters less, don’t you think?"
We know we are going to die sooner or later. But for now, we make the most of it. 🙂
Mr. Ihsan,
You desperate? You posted the exact same thing in three articles already. What are you trying to do? Twist Muhammad’s history so that it suits the Western audience?
Now i ask you:
1) Didn’t Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, leader of the Pagans, came to Muhammad’s uncle saying that Muhammad and his goons were free to worship Allah, but let the Pagans have their freedom of worship too?
2) How many muslim(s) died during the so-called “Muslim persecution in Mecca by the Pagans”?
Brother AI, you do not have to worry about offending me. Chinese do not have inflated ego. We are only bystanders witnessing the "clash of civilisation" as Wafa Sultan put it. The consensus of the Chinese people was that the wests got their just desert with their oily ambition in the ME, and admittedly we are more inclined to side with the muslims. But how can we stand shoulder to shoulder with lunatics who talk gibberish and believe in angels, jins and Allah.
Salam Peace brother.
Brother Abdullah Ihsan,
I chime with John K when he said, "Who cares about upholding ancient cultures?"
You see Chinese girls with make-ups, sir, they are not acting "white"; People are more liberal and less conservative these days. The Chinese progresses and moves forward just as technology improves over time, not the other way round. Only decades ago, pre-arranged child marriage was commonplace (please note: a boy child engaged to a girl child). There was nothing morally good or bad in it, just that It was obsolete and we don't practise that now. However, your Allah almighty permitted sex between old man with underage girl. It was a morally wrong ignorant ancient culture which muslims still want to uphold. You tell me what went wrong with your people.
Poor logic as usual, auntie. Internet is kafir's invention and since kafir is the worst creature in Allah's eyes, you shouldn't use it.
Your negative attitude is shown towards "white" culture aka modern, more practical lifestyle. You despised that and glorified the ancient culture (forgetting the negative version of it aka barbarity).
Your prophet invited using a offensive remark and claimed that the pagan was wrong. After he got rejected he went on cursing their religion. Pagan wanted peace and picked the middle way but Muhammad rejected. Yeah, it lasted for 13 years with no significant incident except Muhammad's intention to rebel against his own tribe. You said that their gods were false but so did Allah. The false invited the false. It is ridiculous and rational people don't measure it from that point. You can't use belief to justify who's wrong and right, that's selfish.
@ John K
Hi Mr. K,
Did I say Chinese was conquered? 🙂
I merely commented to put balance in Chinaloi’s expressed hatred towards Whites by implying: If he really doesn’t like Whites, why now his people are becoming like them?
Did you notice any negative attitude towards Whites in my writings?
I have nothing against Whites, Sir. I too had some white friends when I was staying in where you are from. What we don’t want to follow is the far-from-Islam behaviors most of them are practicing now, i.e free sexes, drinking habits, and the likes.
I know it’s natural for man and woman to want to look good and stylish. But in Islam, trying every effort to look good doesn’t count that much because we understand that beauty doesn’t last forever. When a woman reaches 50, her look matters less, don’t you think?
If a society has no strong morale standards on how to dress, its dressing code will gradually be shifting. You can see this by witnessing how now younger generations (particularly in the west) love to show their aurat (parts of their bodies that are not supposed to be shown in public).
In Islam, it is fixed that women can only show their faces and palms.
Mr. Key,
I am a Muslim, and I have been reading about Rasulullah from the very same sources as sina. I did read the eras sina has probably missed (or purposely missed) during which Rasulullah gently invited the pagans to leave worshipping the false gods, and how he dealt with enmities against him. It lasted for 13 years.
Right on Sanada,
Attention will be given if there is no more mental block.
A taboo-ness is a mental block.
In order to learn, taboos will have to give way to the truth.
The problem is, does that specific person even pay attention?
Nice to have you back John.
Some people here can benefit from your wisdom provided if they pay attention enough.
"… rarely I saw young people among you upholding your ancient cultures. Looking at your way of living, most of your young generation is simply ‘White Chinese’, if I may say so."
Abdullah, your racist attitude is promoting the "us against them" mentality which is the universal nature of human evil that seeks to destroy peace by creating divisions among the people to set them against each other.
Who cares about upholding ancient cultures? What value does it serve? In the Mormon Church we venerate the pioneers who crossed the plains to create a safe place to live far from the mobs and persecutions. I may venerate them, but I wouldn't want to live like them.
Nor do I need to dress like them. It is an artifact of Muslim imperialism that says that you are not a legitimate human being if you don't dress like an Arab. People want to dress for practicality, not to represent something. People also want to look stylish, and women have a universal nature of wanting to look pretty, which is a beautiful thing that Islam wants to suppress.
As Juste suggested, look at mormon.org. 35 years ago a Humanities professor told me that it was the world's only religion that is philosophically sound. I thought that was a tall claim and just kind of filed it in the back of my mind to keep an eye out for it. Since then I have lived a lot and seen a lot, and I can say that it is true.
"So do you need to see God in front of you?
This is the test for us, we believe by understanding the signs."
Hi Maruf,
If you had read my other posts on this site, you would know I do believe in God, but I know his name is not Allah and his messenger is not Muhammad. You would know this too if you read the Quran and Understanding Muhammad. Don't be superstitious trying to read signs. You will find God's proof in your heart.
@Abdullah ihsan
It would be helpful if you had some historical education before you post. China has never been conquered. If China accepted Islam, it would be the same kind of hell-hole country as the Muslim countries. A true human being wouldn't wish that on anyone. Educate yourself. Read Muhammad's criminal handbook called the Quran and read Understanding Muhammad.
"keep a watchful eye of the forever interfering insidious parasitic Whites"
Chinaloi, the good you do in fighting Islam is undone by the racist poison you spew.
Thank you Juste. I haven't been here in a really long time, so I appreciate you referring people to the source rather than critic sites.
@ Chinaloi
May be you are proud of the progresses your people have made so far. 🙂
But, isn’t it you who are defeated by the Whites when seen that you have failed sustaining your own cultures? Isn’t it you people who have fallen into trap that you are becoming like Whites now? i.e encouraging free sexes, dressing openly like they do, getting more and more familiar with sexually attractive movies (that will ruin your next generations), and so on.
Like in the case of most Muslims too, it is your dignity that has been and is being attacked Sir, not your physical being, yet you are not aware of it. Hhmm, when I was a kid, I used to watch Kung Fu serial movies wherein a Chinese girl was so shy when her hand is accidentally touched by a young man (portraying your high morale in the ancient days). Supposing the portrayed morale were true, where is it now? 🙂
I have been to China (some parts of it including Hong Kong) and witnessed that you people were practically becoming Whites these days, and rarely I saw young people among you upholding your ancient cultures. Looking at your way of living, most of your young generation is simply ‘White Chinese’, if I may say so. 🙂
This is what some Muslims also need to wake up from and come back to Islamic teachings.
It would have probably sounded better if you have said Muslims now have to be better in technologies (as it is also suggested by Rasulullah long time ago in one of his hadiths), but without having to live the way most today’s Whites do.
Please don’t feel offended.
Dear Chinaloi,
I heartily welcomed your suggestion to start searching elsewhere for God. Everywhere I will search!!!
Brother, Chinese god was not there to help us in hardship. We had to fight our way to freedom. Your Allah fared even worse. He even punished muslima by making them cover up head to toe, and his faithfuls killing each other. If Allah was smart enough, he would have made white women wear burka, and whiteys killing each other. So at least for now, we can safely conclude that Chinese god and Allah were lesser gods. We will not be losers if we discard them both. I suggest you start searching elsewhere for God.
Brother Maruf,
I am forever learning and don't mind an education from your side. However, there is nothing to learn from the muslims if their logic is out of this world.
A generation ago, China were humiliated, raped and robbed by western imperalists. The Chinese had a rude awakening. We wasted no time sending men to learn from our enemies. A generation later, we armed ourselves with nukes and are able to speak on equal term with the west.
The Middle Easterns suffered the same fate. Instead of finding out how, why and what went wrong, the Islamic world clinged onto a fantasy book that tells you to "pray 5 times a day" and to "kill apostates". I have reason to believe the crusaders planted the quran to sow discord and confusion among the muslims. A muslim friend even told me western powers were more technologically advanced because they were able to decipher the quran. How poles apart the Chinese and the muslims' thinkings are!
continue ..
Ma’ruf,
You were asking John K. for some help on religions right?
I do not speak for John, this is my personal opinion. I believe John is a Mormon. If you want to know about Mormonism, here is one link i can find:
http://mormon.org
go to it. They have chat rooms for trading infos.
Please note that i do not endorse Mormonism, i am just giving you an option.
Dear Chinaloi,
I am not trying to educate you. I want to place here a logic.
It is sure that we die. Suppose there are two person you and me.
After death there may be two situations 1) There is no God 2) There is a God.
Situation 1) There is no God:
You will not be looser as well as I will not be looser too.
Situation 2) There is a God:
You will be looser but I will not be looser if I can follow the true God/religion.
That's why I am searching the more true religion in the world.
Hi Maruf,
As a Chinese, we generally don't interfere in other's affair, but after reading few of your comments, I feel the need to say something. I am completely bewildered and amused by your insistence on subscribing to a religion, as if it is compulsory to life. North Asians – the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans plus the Viets generally don't believe in god and we thrived. All we have to do is to keep a watchful eye of the forever interfering insidious parasitic Whites, and we're good. Look at all those countries governed by your divine Allah's law – killing, raoing, torturing and maiming in the name of Allah. Isn't it time to dump him?
Islam is not true at all. So any religion is truer that a total lie.
I am searching for a more true religion than Islam. Can you help me?
So do you need to see God in front of you?
This is the test for us, we believe by understanding the signs.
You cant fail brother, because a written debate can last forever. You should boldly debate publicly then we will understand better about you. I have read all of your debates but you do not agree to come onto a conclusion in spite of opponent places concrete logic,proof.
"This challenge is 10 years old. I have led thousands of people out of Islam" out of Islam to where?
Oh? And what does it say exactly? When will it happen? Got my point?
Also, in Quran, Muhammad had clearly stated that he couldn't and wouldn't perform miracle because that's useless. It had been done in the past and people still harassed and killed prophet. Just because Quran said something doesn't mean it's true and again that's proven through the hoax news.
Hi Shaheem,
Muhammad performed the moon split (or any miracles) really does in contradiction with Quran and Muhammad’s own words.
Your argument about Muhammad performed miracles only if Allah wanted to goes both ways. Here’s what i mean:
Let me ask you. Do you think what Moses and Jesus did when performing miracles is merely because they wanted to? Or it was because Allah also wanted them too? Besides Moses or Jesus own will of course.
Invite your scholare and I will prove that all their claimes about Islam and its miracles are bogus. If I fail to do that I will close down all my sites after announcing publicly that am proven wrong.
This challegne is 10 years old. I have led thousands of people out of Islam and I am waiting for Muslims scholars,
Cant believe how people are lied.i mean the writer of this article fools us.he says the 'moon splitting' miracle is a contradiction to Qur'an.and he tries to proves it by saying according to quran he cant perform miracles.But what is the problem with that.as far as i know, muslims dnt beleve he can perform miracles anytime.we beleve that prophets like moses,jesus and mohamed performed miracles only when Allah wanted them to.none of them couldnt do it by their will.u can ask any muslim scholar.like yusuf estes. and the greatest miracle which God gave to prophet mohamed is the Quran.how? to understand,search youtube for nouman ali khan miraculous quran,and nouman ali khan brilliance of the book , and watch?v=9D1_zBzLlr4,and /watch?v=OSLs_cgPNXI .U R NOT CREATED WITHOUT A PURPOSE.I WORSHIP GOD IN 'HIS TERMS' .contact me for mor dtls.= shamimuhammed gmail dot com
There is a chapter named Qamar (moon) in the qur'an.in which u can see it.
Think it carefully. From where did you get that so called moon splitting miracle? This is like conspiracy theory. Do you know that muslim was the first one who discovered America or build the great wall of China?
I saw on FaceBook a Muslim who does Da'wah (preach) posting a picture of the above 'splitting of the moon' and quotes a 'moon dividing into two ' verse from the crappy kuran.And all his Mozzie friends were all happy about it that their lousy kuran goes along science.Even I was a bit worried that this splitting of moon could be true.Thanx to Ali Sina, now I have cleared this fright from my mind, and am gonna use the above scientific facts on rilles to debate with them.Thanx once again Ali Sina for showing the true colours of demonic islam.I hope maybe you can open a group in FB to spread the truth of the demonic islam.May Lord Siva,the One true God shower his mercy and grace onto you.
Dear Brother Ali,
Pls email me your earlier edition (in pdf).
I don't have to wait till doomsday. Anyone with a brain can see that Islam is criminal and morally bankrupt. What good is Islam? Absolutely nothing. It has nothing to offer humanity but dead bodies and twisted minds.
It is kind of stupid to wait until we die to find the truth. It is a bit too late then. Truth can be found now and hear. All we have to do is read all the facts. Read my book and you will leave Islam. I am not asking you to read it with an “open mind.” Read it with rage and with hate and with close mind and deny everything I say. But read the book cover to cover and you will leave Islam. I have helped thousands of Muslims to leave Islam. They defied me, maligned me and promised to show my errors. The read the book and found out the truth. Anyone who read my book has left it. Buy the latest edition. If you don’t want to spend money and make me two dollars richer, ask me and I will send you an earlier edition of it in pdf. It is not as complete as the last edition but it will help you see the truth.
Salam everyone..
There is Only one God and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the messenger..
We as a Islam, we dont deny the words of Allah SWT that is our One and Only God..
The Judgement Day is near.
Does not matter if you want to believe it or not because of our responsibility is only to convey the information and the rest is between you and God.
We do not feel surprised by what you say because God has said in Surah Al-Qamar (54), Verses 1-3
They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts.
Yet everything will come to a decision.
Everything will be clear when the time comes.
I pray so that God will gives you guidance in your hearts.
Salam and peace everyone..
shut up you freak john don’t disregard my religion.
we will see on doomsday who’s religion was right.
for your religion (jeseus) Quran says:
“That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.”
4:156-9
and
3:55 “Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”
If Allah was truly a god, you would be right. An omnipotent god can do anything he wants, and if he is bored and feels like splitting the moon and putting it back together again so no one will ever know he did it, then who are we to question him, right Khalid?
The real issue is that Allah is not a real god. You have no proof of it except for Muhammad's word. Is there anything good in Muhammad's word? The Koran is obviously a fake text that Muhammad created to get people to believe god endorses him in his life of murder, robbery, looting, slavery, lechery and warlording.
Well, I must tell you that my grandfather split the sun. Of course just as you said, I can't prove it to you.
a miracle is something that can not be explained by science, the reason why no scientific evidence can shown for the splitting of the moon is because it is a miracle its something science cant explain, if allah can create anything for him to split the moon and putit back together is easy as it is allah who created the moon in the first place, this articles lame as the buffoon who wrote it, its a miracle something science cant explain go and check the defenition of miraclebefore writing crap moron.
Great job Ali bro.Is it npt possible to replicate you many times.or go for cloning so that for the betterment of humanity we need few more Ali Sina
Muslims tell that all the religious scriptures has prophecied MuHamMad. However, Islam doesn't mention anything about 'sanatana dharma'/'hinduism' or its prophets. They want to take everything give nothing. Also, one thing they forget to mention is that hinduism has other prophets but nobody is counted outside hinduism's fold. So, why should a single person MuHamMad be counted as founder of another faith other than just one of its prophets. In that case, muslims of India should abide by constitutional law rather than Sharia. Dumbo muslims.
I hope Ali Sina becomes successful in eradicating Islam. Otherwise, the picture is very clear – apocalypse.
Hindu Scripture Bhavishya Puran does tell about Mohamed. But not in a way muslims project. In Bhavishya puran Mohammed is mentioned as a demon king, who would spoil the sanskrit language and his deeds will be satanic.
Bhavishya puran : There was a mystic demon named Tripura(Tripurasura), whom I have already burnt to ashes, he has come again by the order of Bali. He has no origin but he achieved a benediction from me. His name is Mahamada(Muhammad) and his deeds are like that of a ghost. Therefore, O king, you should not go to this land of the evil ghost. By my mercy your intelligence will be purified
Read more about it here http://bhavishyapuran.blogspot.com/
it's good to see some of the old faithfreedom articles coming back, i loved those articles and used them in numerous debates to help me, i really think it's a shame faithfreedom has gone in more of a news reporting direction these last few years