The Place of Women in Islam
There are two men in Islam that are indisputably the greatest in the annals of this religion. They are Imam al Ghazzali and Jalaleddin Rumi, both Persians. Let us see what they thought of women.
Ghazzali is so highly revered amongst the majority of Muslim clerics that he is called Hojjatul Islam,” proof of Islam”. For many, his authority in religious matters is only second to the Prophet. In his The Revival of the Religious Sciences Ghazzali defines the position of women in Islam:
- She should stay at home and get on with her spinning
- She can go out only in emergencies.
- She must not be well-informed nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary.
- She should take care of her husband and respect him in his presence and his absence and seek to satisfy him in everything.
- She must not leave her house without his permission and if given his permission she must leave secretly.
- She should put on old clothes and take deserted streets and alleys, avoid markets, and make sure that a stranger does not hear her voice, her footsteps, smell her or recognize her.
- She must not speak to a friend of her husband even in need.
- Her sole worry should be her “al bud” (reproductive organs) her home as well as her prayers and her fast.
- If a friend of her husband calls when her husband is absent she must not open the door nor reply to him in order to safeguard her “al bud”.
- She should accept what her husband gives her as sufficient sexual needs at any moment.
- She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband’s sexual needs at any moment.
The great theologian then warns all men to be careful of women for their “guile is immense and their mischief is noxious; they are immoral and mean spirited“.
Ghazzali states “It is a fact that all the trials, misfortunes and woes which befall men come from women“.
In his Book of Counsel for Kings, Ghazzali sums up things that a woman has to endure because of Eve’s misbehavior in the Garden of Eden:
“When Eve ate fruit which He had forbidden to her from the tree in Paradise, the Lord, be He praised, cursed women with eighteen punishments:
- menstruation;
- childbirth;
- separation from mother and father and marriage to a stranger;
- pregnancy;
- not having control over her own person;
- a lesser share in inheritance; (one half of the male as per the Quran)
- her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce;
- its being lawful for men to have four wives, but for a woman to have only one husband;
- the fact that she must stay secluded in the house;
- the fact that she must keep her head covered inside the house;
- the fact that two women’s testimony has to be set against the testimony of one man;
- the fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative;
- the fact that men take part in Friday and feast day prayers and funerals while women do not;
- disqualification for ruler ship and judgeship;
- the fact that merit has one thousand components, only one of which is attributable to women, while 999 are attributable to men;
- the fact that if women are profligate they will be given twice as much torment as the rest of the community at the Resurrection Day;
- – the fact that if their husbands die they must observe a waiting period of four months and ten days before remarrying;
“Marriage is a form of slavery” says Ghazzali. “The woman is man’s slave and her duty therefore is absolute obedience to the husband in all that he asks of her person. A woman, who at the moment of death enjoys the full approval of her husband, will find her place in Paradise.”
He also wrote: “If you relax the woman’s leash a tiny bit, she will take you and bolt wildly…. Their deception is awesome and their wickedness is contagious; bad character and feeble mind are their predominant traits …”
What about Jalalleddin Rumi? If Gazzali is great among the clerics, Rumi is the greatest lighthouse for all the Muslims. Rumi was a genius poet. But he was also a Muslim. Let us see what this genius Muslim thinks of women.
He narrates a story of an Arab couple, where the woman, tired of poverty, complains to her husband to get off his butts, do some work and improve their lives.
یك شب اعرابی زنی مر شوی را �گفت و از حد برد گفت وگوی را
كاین همه فقر و جفا ما می كشیم�جمله عالم در خوشی ما ناخوشیم
نانمان نی نان خورشمان درد و رشك �كوزه مان نه آبمان از دیده اشك
جامۀ ما روز، تاب آفتاب �شب نهالین و لحاف از ماهتاب
قرص مه را قرص نان پنداشته �دست سوی آسمان برداشته
ننگ درویشان ز درویشی ما �روز شب از روزی اندیشی ما
خویش و بیگانه شده از ما رمان �بر مثال سامری از مردمان
گر بخواهم از كسی یك مشت نسك �مر مرا گوید خمش كن مرگ و جسك
مر عرب را فخر غزو است و عطا �در عرب ما همچو خط اندر خطا
شب بخفتم روز باشد هیچ نه �در درون جز سوز و پیچا پیچ نه
چه غزا ما بی غزا خود كشته ایم�ما به تیغ فقر بی سر گشته ایم
The husband rebukes her for her covetousness. He engages in a series of logical fallacies verbalizing Rumi’s own views about wealth and worldly possessions. He says wealth and poverty will pass just as floods come and go and what difference does it make whether the flood is clear water or muddy? In this world, he argues, all sorts of animals live in comfort praising their Lord without bothering to go after work. Possession is like hat, which is only needed by the bald. The wise man is like an eye. He can see better when it is naked and not covered by a veil. Only defects have to be covered. A man of God has no defects to cover. From mosquito to elephant, all creatures are provided by God. And we too must abandon all concerns and rely on God for our sustenance.
شوی گفتش چند جویی دخل و كِشت �خود چه ماند از عمر، افزونتر گذشت
عاقل اندر بیش و نقصان ننگرد �زآنكه هر دو همچو سیلی بگذرد
خواه صاف و خواه سیل تیره رو� چون نمی پاید دمی از وی مگو
اندر این عالم هزاران جانور� می زید خوش عیش بی زیر و زبر
شكر می گوید خدا را فاخته� بر درخت و برگ شب ناساخته
همچنین از پشه گیری تا بفیل� شد عیال الله و حق نعم المعیل
این همه غمها كه اندر سینه هاست� از غبار گرد باد و بود ماست
گفت ای زن تو زنی یا بو الحزن �فقر فخر آمد، مرا طعنه مزن
مال و زر سر را بود همچون كلاه �َكل بود آن كز كله سازد پناه
آن كه زلف جعد و رعنا باشدش �چون كلاهش رفت خوشتر آیدش
مرد حق باشد به مانند بصر �پس برهنه به كه پوشیده نظر
He then reminds his wife of the Prophet’s saying that there is glory in poverty, and threatens to divorce her
صبر كن با فقر و بگذار این ملال �زآنكه در فقر است عزّ ذو الجلال
ترك جنگ و سرزنش ای زن بگو�ور نمیگویی، به ترك من بگو
گر خمش كردی و گرنه آن كنم �كه همین دم ترك خان و مان كنم
The wife, realizing that complaints don’t work and frightened of divorce, resorts to tricks. She sheds crocodile tears to fool her husband. Rumi says all tears shed by women are for deceiving men. She apologizes profusely and praises her husband’s kingly detachment. In these verses, the great sage masterfully depicts women as sly, cunning and manipulative creatures who can beguile the wisest of men.
زن چو دید او را كه تند و توسن است �گشت گریان، گریه خود دام زن اس
زن در آمد از طریق نیستی �گفت من خاك شمایم، نه سَتی
جسم و جان و هر چه هستم آن توست �حكم و فرمان جملگی فرمان توست
گر ز درویشی دلم از صبر جَست �بهر خویشم نیست، آن بهر تو است
كفر گفتم، نك به ایمان آمدم �پیش حكمت از سر جان آمدم
خوی شاهانۀ ترا نشناختم �پیش تو، گستاخ خود در تاختم
چون ز عفو تو چراغی ساختم �توبه كردم اعتراض انداختم
می نهم پیش تو شمشیر و كفن �میكشم پیش تو گردن را، بزن
از فراق تلخ می گویی سخُن �هر چه خواهی كن، ولیكن این مكن
زین نسق می گفت با لطف و گشاد �در میان گریه، بر روی اوفتاد
Finally, through tears and blandishments she softens her husband’s heart and convinces him to do her bidding, which eventually leads him to become greedy and forget God.
گریه چون از حد گذشت و های های �از حنینش مرد را دل شد زجای
چون پی یسكن الیهاش آفرید �كی تواند آدم از حوا برید؟
Men subdued by women’s wiles.
In this manner she pleaded with gentle coaxing,
The while her tears fell upon her cheeks.
How could his firmness and endurance abide
When even without tears she could charm his heart?
That rain brought forth a flash of lightning
Which kindled a spark in the heart of that poor man.
Since the man was the slave of her fair face,
How was it when she stooped to slavish entreaties?
When she whose airs set thy heart a-quaking,
When she weeps, how feelest thou then?
When she whose coquetry makes thy heart bleed
Condescends to entreaties, how is it then?
She who subdues us with her pride and severity,
What plea is left us when she begins to plead?
When she who traded in naught but bloodshed
Submits at last, ah! what a profit she makes!
God has adorned them “fair in the sight of men;”
From her whom God has adorned how can man escape?
Since He created him “to dwell together with her,”
The greatest sage of the Muslim world, the biggest luminary that was ever born in Islam, is saying that men, though wise and strong, can be seduced and bested by women and swayed from the right path, (the path of laziness and poverty that leads to God) and can become her slave, go after worldly pursuits, (i.e., industry, production and wealth) and become deterred from God.
Rumi continues:
How can Adam sever himself from his Eve?
Though he be Rostam, son of Zal, and braver than Hamza,
Yet he is submissive to the behests of his dame.
Now listen to this greatest sage’s weltanschauung. Comparing man to water and woman to fire and says:
Though water prevails over fire in might,
Yet it boils by fire when in a pot.
When the pot intervenes between these two,
The fire makes as naught of the water reducing it to air.
On the surface you dominate you wife, like water on fire;
But in reality you are ruled by and suppliant to her.
Such is the peculiarity of man,
He is in need of animal affection; that is his failing.چون پی یسكن الیهاش آفرید� كی تواند آدم از حوا برید؟
رستم زال ار بود وز حمزه بیش �هست در فرمان اسیر زال خویش
آنكه عالم مستِ گفتش آمدی �كلمینی یا حمیراء می زدی
آب غالب شد بر آتش از نهیب �زآتش او جوشد چو باشد در حجیب
چون كه دیگی حایل آید هر دو را �نیست كرد آن آب را، كردش هوا
ظاهراً بر زن چو آب ار غالبی �باطناً مغلوب و زن را طالبی
این چنین خاصیتی در آدمی است �مهر حیوان را كم است، آن از كمی است
The great sage is saying that despite man’s apparent superiority and dominance over woman, there is a weakness in him. He is ensnared by her beauty and is in need of animal affection. The love between a man and woman is not really love. That kind of elevated noble love can only happen in the sky, between man and his imaginary God. The love between a man and a woman is a shortcoming of our animal nature, which is detrimental, leading to our downfall.
The gist of Rumi’s story is condensed in a quote that he attributes to his prophet.
The Prophet said that women hold dominion
Over sages and over men of insight,
But that fools, again, hold the upper hand over women,
Because in them (women) there is animal nature.گفت پیغمبر كه زن بر عاقلان �غالب آید سخت و بر صاحب دلان
باز بر زن جاهلان غالب شوند�كندرایشان خوی حیوان است بند
Explanation: Women can seduce wise and pious men, with their beauty, charm and tricks and lead them astray, but because of their animal nature, fools have an upper hand over them.
Rumi then goes on to say that all good human qualities are in men. Women lack those qualities because they are animals.
They have no tenderness or gentleness or amity,
Because the animal nature sways their temperament.
Love and tenderness are qualities of humanity,
Passion and lust are qualities of animality.
It appears as if she is the light of God and not just a lover,
That she is the creator and not a creature herself.
كم بودشان رقت و لطف و ودادك �زآنكه حیوانی است غالب بر نهاد
مِهر و رقت وصف انسانی بود�خشم و شهوت وصف حیوانی بود
پرتو حق است آن معشوق نیست �خالق است آن گوئیا مخلوق نیست
All the lofty human attributes, such as tenderness, gentleness and amity belong to men. By virtue of not being humans, women are bereft of them. Rumi compares man to intellect and woman to to ego (nafs). And there is a permanent conflict between them. The woman’s only concerns are the necessities of this life, such as having a home, food, dignity and pride. Sometimes she appears modest and other times she is full of ambitions. But man that represents intellect is not aware of these petty and mundane thoughts. His only worry is the pain of separation from God.
ماجرای مرد و زن افتاد نقل� این مثال نفس خود میدان و عقل
این زن و مردی كه نفس است و خرد� نیك پابست است بهر نیك و بد
وین دو پابسته در این خاكی سرا� روز و شب در جنگ و اندر ماجرا
زن همی جوید هویج خانگاه� یعنی آبِ رو و نان و خوان و جاه
نفس همچون زن پی چاره گری� گاه خاكی گاه جوید سروری
عقل خود زین فكرها آگاه نیست� در دماغش جز غم الله نیست
Rumi is extremely important figure in Islam. He gave eloquence to the crude asinine thoughts of Muhammad. It is he who made Muhammad’s misogyny sound rational. Iranians would never have accepted this balderdash had it not been for Rumi’s great influence. Without him Islam, would probably have disappeared by now. Every “reasonable” Muslim (if such a creature exists) owes the justification of his faith to Rumi and how he interpreted the teachings of Muhammad.
There are two lessons in this story. One is that work that leads to wealth is bad and laziness and poverty are good, because wealth makes one forget God while poverty makes one constantly remember God. Doesn’t this explain why Muslims, particularly Arabs loath manual work? Love based on need is not love at all. But it seems that God does not care much. He wants people to be needy so they constantly remember him and pray to him. This is the mentality of the narcissist. Since Allah is the figment of the mind of Muhammad who was a narcissist, he is a narcissist too.
The other lesson is that women don’t have the spiritual acumen that men have. Their thoughts are mundane and this worldly. All they can think of is how to live better. They are greedy and a hindrance to man’s noble pursuit of the divine. They can deceive a pious man through tears and cajolery.
There is validation for all these claims in the Quran and the sayings of Muhammad. Muhammad said women are deficient in faith and in intelligence and natural born sinners.
These are the views of the two greatest Muslim luminaries. No other Muslim ever rose to their rank and knowledge. If this is how Ghazzali and Rumi thought of women, why should we expect anything better from ordinary Muslims?
Islam views women as awrah : The Encyclopedia of Islam defines awrah as pudendum, that is “the external genitals, especially of the female”. [Latin pudendum (literally) a thing to be ashamed of] The followers of Imam Hanbal and Shafi’I (major factions) consider even the woman’s hand and the face to be awrah (genitalia), and therefore should be covered.
The picture at the top is not a setup. It is a reality of women in many Islamic countries, Here is one more.
Women in Islamic countries are treated no better than trash. For many, the only escape from a forced marriage or a violent husband is to set fire to themselves. This is their way to get the world’s attention. alas no one is listening. For the benighted people, or rather the zombies of the world, it is more important to defend Islam, than to save the precious lives of these innocent souls. Most of these victims are very young. Islam is a lie. These lives are real. Where is your priority?
In Afghanistan, 60% of women are still forced into marriage as children, sometimes as young as nine or 10. As long as Muhammad is regarded as the most perfect human and someone to emulate these crimes will continue.
Choon Agha I Syae yE Mahtab Mi geed/As Mr Moon Shadow says. Since inception Sufis are targeted by bigot Muslims. Their linage is from Al Khizr(Saint George). We have Hazarat Mansoor Al Hallaj RA, Hazrat Sarmad Shaheed among others, brutally murdered by bigot Sunnis and at present by Salafis.
It is nice to read your post and you share some excellent information. Please share more information on particular topic.
Thanks Chuck, that means a lot to me! I am always hoping that you keep doing your good work!
@Demsci
//And Allah seem very inactive since he introduced Islam, sending his last prophet now already 1400 years ago.//
Righto!!! Well put.
Regards
//"Most of the problems you quoted here has nothing to do with Islam, most of them are traditions in the areas just like honor killing In Pakistan which absolutely nothing to do with Islam."//
But Allah supposedly did send Islam for a reason, didn't he? Or must we suppose Islam has no earthly use? Why wasn't Islam capable to change detrimental traditions?
What benefit does Islam give mankind or the earth as a whole?
And if Muslims start giving reasons about how useful Islam is, then we Islam-critics can answer that:
"Most of the benefits of Islam you quoted here have nothing to with Islam, most of them are traditions, just like human rights in the West which has absolutely nothing to do with Islam."
Islam-critics can deny the good influence of Islam just as much as you deny the bad influence of Islam.
And Islam-critics do have truer, better competitor religions or lifestyles than Islam.
And Allah seem very inactive since he introduced Islam, sending his last prophet now already 1400 years ago.
it is quran that states that women are only half worthy as man . so it is not culture but islam itself
Most of the problems you quoted here has nothing to do with Islam, most of them are traditions in the areas just like honor killing In Pakistan which absolutely nothing to do with Islam.. Most of the Muslims are not following Islam that does not means that Islam is a fake or Brutal religion.. Read about Islam first and then write articles.. Thanks..
Females were regarded to be the embodiment of excellent benefit and knowledge.
Thus we have: “O bride! May the information of the Vedas be at the front side of you and behind you, in your center and in your finishes. May you perform your lifestyle after getting the information of the Vedas. May you be charitable, the harbinger of excellent luck and wellness and reside in excellent pride and indeed be illumined in your husband’s house.” Atharva Veda 14-1-64.
Your whole exposé is a secret question of justifications ad hominem . It is absolutely unreasonable .
As far as your justifications oppose the quran and the ahadith, you have shown Allah and Mohammed being LIARS.
OK so why is it that women does not get houris and men does? Or why can't she keep her husband exclusively for herself? You say that God loves a human according to his or her piety and not sex. Good. Then why do you say that it is a privilege for woman to be exempted from Jummah prayers in the mosque or prayers during her menses? I mean not worshipping is not a privilege for any pious man or woman. It is God who had given her the order isn't it? Didn't He know that towels can actually keep her safe even during prayers and there are pills that temporarily or permanently stops period? Why can't she make up her prayers after her menses? God gave her exemption? Why no reward (houris)? And in the end why did your prophet say that women are deficient in religion because of her menses? Is it God who has given exemption or women who had asked for it? Please stop contradicting yourself.
Wrong God said in the Quran that human beings (men and women) and djinns were created for His worship. But then why didn't He create Eve with Adam or soon after Adam was created? He created her when Adam needed a partner (as if the talking angels, talking God and the houris weren't enough for him). It is also said in the Quran that he created women as a mate for men (no mention of worshipping). Why is God contradicting Himself?
Wrong. God said in the Quran that human beings (men and women) and djinns were created for His worship. But then why didn't He create Eve with Adam or soon after Adam was created? He created her when Adam needed a partner (as if the talking angels, talking God and the houris weren't enough for him). It is also said in the Quran that he created women as a mate for men (no mention of worshipping). Why is God contradicting Himself?
Like the Post especially the writings of the the Persian writers. I believe they knew Judaism very well.
MULTAN, Pakistan: A four-year-old girl was taken to a hospital in Vehari on Thursday after she was sexually assaulted allegedly by the chief cleric on her first day at a seminary. Doctors treating her said that her condition was critical.
Meerapur police said the suspect had been arrested.
The girl’s father, a resident of Nawan Shehr in Mailsi, said in the FIR that he had dropped his daughter at the Shaheedanwala seminary in the neighbourhood.
He said more than 70 children from five nearby villages were enrolled at the seminary.
He said it was the girl’s first day and the chief cleric had asked him to drop her at his office. The father was told that he (cleric) would introduce her to other children.
He said when he went to pick her up at noon, he was told that his daughter was in the chief cleric’s office. The office was locked and the cleric missing. He said he broke into the room and found the child lying unconscious.
She was taken to the district headquarters hospital, where doctors treating her said that her condition was critical. Doctors later said she had undergone a surgery.
Dr Tahira Parveen at the DHQ hospital told The Express Tribune that the girl’s medico-legal examination confirmed rape.
District Police Officer Sadiq Ali Dogar said that a police team arrested the suspect from another seminary where he had been hiding.
He said the suspect had been shifted to an undisclosed location on account of the neighbours’ threats of violence. He said two other clerics from the madrassa were also reported to have gone missing after the incident.
Residents of the area staged a protest demonstration and announced a boycott of all seminaries.
[youtube EzmmoYqS49k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzmmoYqS49k youtube]
[youtube aZMbTFNp4wI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZMbTFNp4wI youtube]
but they change with time…they followed sati pratha but now thts not in practice.but muslims dont change with time thts the problem.position of women is islam is not gud.they are suppressed and treated like toys,what u wrote above true but in islam same position
Common sense is not very common…so true about morons like the 'Muslim' above. Vedas were written when humanity was, what can i say, just in child birth. After thousands of years and millions of translations we cant say what is there was what was originally said. Even it was,In Hinduism itself, a philosophy 'Vedanta' came into being. It means 'Age of End of Vedas'. I don't expect your stupid mind to decipher its meaning, but for benefit of others i will say it consists of 200 Upanishads, Badrayan Brahma Sutra and Gita. These are pure religion and even science is day by day coming agreeing to them. For example, thousands of years before scientists discovered concept expanding galaxies, Upanishads called this universe 'Brahama'. Meaning of Brahama is which is expanding.
I'll cut the story short and ask you a simple question:
Take Upanishads, Brahamasutra, Gita, Patanjali Yoga Sutra, Shiva's Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, Gautam Buddha's Dhammapada, KundKund's Samaysaar, Shankar's philosophy of Advaita…list is endless…and show even 1 scripture from your faith which you can, i will not say compare, even think of comparing with these…
We can then talk further.
An illiterate man is an exaggeration . since this book was compiled over a long period of time.
Thank you for translating the article. However, there is a few errors. You translated, “But rejoice, because in the world to come, you will have 72 sexy and beautiful women. ”
I said well endowed hunks, not beautiful women. Well endowed hunks means men with big reproductive instrument.
Also you translated, “, but if you do not accidentally kill a woman, then you should pay half.”
The death of woman should also be accidental. We are talking about slaughterer not homicide.
You translated, ” Many women will certainly feel enough if get a lover who do not beat their man.”
It should be “them: not their man. Women will be happy with one lover who does not beat them.
“There is no reward for anything! Only the presence of their husbands who’s ugly!?”
I did not say he is ugly. I said lousy, which can be translated as contemptible, wretched, bad, etc. The point is that with all those virgins he won’t have time for his earthly wife. His looks is not the point.
“but this time to share their husbands with 6 dozen prostitutes?”
Although the word whore is translated as prostitute, it is actually a Persian word which means beautiful woman of fairy. It is borrowed by Muhammad and used in the Quran and when the same word came to the English language, although originally meant beautiful women, it was denigrated to prostitute. Now some people use a different spelly to distinguish the two words. The use hurr or something like that. But the word in the Quran actually means beautiful woman or fairy. So you should either use the original word which is whore, houri or hurr or translate it as beautiful woman/ celestial virgins.
” But you can eat and have fun as much as you want
It should be you can eat and have sex as much as you want.
” With all the female prostitute sexy bottom,”
It should be with all the beautiful whore, or beautiful virgins with high bosom. Bosom means breast and this description is from the Quran. Muhammad did not talk about the bottom of the virgins, he described their bosom.
Finally this paragraph belongs to Shaida and it should be represented as a quotation from her. It is also not translated correctly.
“The Christian law is not that great neither as if you want to divorce your partner you have to prove you have separated and spend years in court which is expensive and soul destroying.”
Thank you very much.
Ali
Thanks
”
Metaphor or not, Rumi clearly says women are conniving and have no feelings. Their tears are crocodile tears shed to trick men who are equated by him to pure intellect and above worldly needs. There is no mistake that women for this man of God were of less value than men and being the greatest spiritual teacher of Muslims he contributed to their denigration and abuse. Because Rumi was a genius poet and had such a huge influence on the thinking of Muslims, I say this with certainty that he was the worst thing that happened to the Muslim world after Muhammad himself.
The translator of Mathnavi has either, did not understand what Rumi was saying or has deliberately twisted the meaning of the verse to hide its hideousness. I quoted this verse in Persian.
پرتو حق است آن معشوق نیست �خالق است آن گوئیا مخلوق نیست
In this verse and the ones above it Rumi says that women so deceives the judgement of men and fool him that to him it appears as if she is the light of God and not just a lover – the creator and not a mere creation.
Rumi is not saying that woman is the creator and the light of God. Apart this being a blasphemy, How could he elevate women to such a degree when a couple of verses above it he says women are animal? He is describing man’s delusion about woman. The following verse should settle any disagreement.
كم بودشان رقت و لطف و وداد �زآنكه حیوانی است غالب بر نهاد
In the above verse he says women have little tenderness, grace and love, because in their essence they are beasts. There is no ambiguity in the meaning and translation of this verse. If you rely on a translation to read Rumi please copy the above verse and ask a Persian friend to translate it for you.
The Quran and Rumi must be read in their original languages. That is because Muhammad and Rumi have devout followers who lie to hide their evil words.
It is a tragedy that people don’t understand Rumi, just as they don’t understand Muhammad. If they really understood them no one would follow them. Now there is a difference of degree between Muhammad and Rumi. But both men were misogynist.
Good criticism of al-Ghazali, but totally misleading info on Rumi. That one poem is a metaphor. It is not an assault on women as a whole but illustrates the conflict in every human being as well as the fact that we all have greed in our hearts and are easy to manipulate. Just to prove this article wrong, here is another short poem by Rumi:
The Prophet said that women
totally dominate men of intellect and possessors of hearts,
But ignorant men dominate women,
for they are shackled by the ferocity of animals.
In the Mathnavi he writes:
Woman is the light of God, not just the beloved. It is as if she is creative, not be created.
Former Muslim Woman Healed and Sees Jesus in a Vision!! See the you tube. This lucky Muslim woman was saved by Jesus.
ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥ मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥ Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā. Over the head of the manmukh is the order of the woman; to her, he ever holds out his promises of goodness.
ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥ जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥ Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā. Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.
ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥ कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥ Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā. Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.(304)
Vijay:
You quote from the Guru Granth Sahib, one of the most elgalatarian religions—that gives total equality of the sexes.
Please send me where there is Husband following wife is unclean sir.
silly crap!
Was that SMART !? NO !!!
STUPID NOSENSE!
NOT WORTH TO BE ANSWERED !
EMPTY HEAD IN ACTION !
DON'T try to be smart, evil brainwashed muslim !
Lunatic !
EVIL MUSLIM !
Prove this, evil muslim! References !
"Jews are not any better, when it comes to the ill treatment of women. "
A "TU QUOQUE "FALLACY. It does not make Islam any better.
@Amin-rat .
"How can stars be thrown at jinns? If one start comes close to our solar system all of us will perish. The stupidity of the Quran is unfathomable. "
One would imagine that an omnipotent God – would know how to take care of the universe we live in.
YOU HAVE A BIG IMAGINATION , AMINRIADH. JUST LIKE YOUR 7TH CENTURY SLAVEMASTER! 😉
BUT YOU MUST FIRST PROVE THAT SUCH A GOD EXISTS IF YOU INSIST ON LOGICAL THINKING! HUH,HUH !!!
"I am not here to argue with anyone nor challenge. My postings are simple – take it or leave it. "
Dearest . . . then why sit and trade insults with 'Ali'?
This is harking to the fact . . . . that you cannot assess or verify the actual source material. . . . if asked to do so.
– – –
I have pointed you to a good source – where such interpretations come from.
4. Earth is geo-spherical in shape
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth. http://www.islamicvoice.com/February2006/Question…
I am not here to argue with anyone nor challenge. My postings are simple – take it or leave it.
Where and which Muslims are saying "egg shaped". Do point them out. . . .
. . . this come from etymology of the word Dha–Ha–Wa
– – –
Somewhere in these comments section – whilst answering to Sina – I have explained this.
Try looking the word up . . .
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
Your best bet – if you cannot understand Classical Arabic – if you can then you don't need me to point out which lexicons to look up.
– – –
What is surprising is that – you have no idea about about the subject . . . or what you are talking about . . . yet you still attempt to use your 2-bit as a stick.
Isn't that the height of ignorance?
– – –
I have repeatedly found this . . . anyone capable of reasoning – quickly denounces Sina – and claim not to follow his views or hold them to be true . . .
. . . the only people who prop him up are trolls. Hence he has allowed "Julia" character to roam free. . . despite previously claiming to ban her/it.
Then why do the Muslims say that it means egg shaped?
Na'am.
Prove what?
The existence of God,or the fact that God is uncreated?
" whatever serves in bringing out the stupidity that is Islam. "
Of which there is none . . . but even if there was . . . I doubt you would are able enough.
– – –
"So what does dahaha mean? "
To extend or spread something out.
whatever serves in bringing out the stupidity that is Islam.
So what does dahaha mean?
And the Sun sets in muddy water……
But you are Hindu, like the remainder 99% on this site and Ali Sina's supporters.
Don't be shy!
To the contrary denialisproof. Your ad hominem fallacy comment is a red herring attempt to distract from your errors.
What you are now using is known as the composition/division fallacy.
You assumed that one part of something has to be applied to all, or other, parts of it; or that the whole must apply to its parts.
Often when something is true for the part it does also apply to the whole, or vice versa, but the crucial difference is whether there exists good evidence to show that this is the case. Because we observe consistencies in things, our thinking can become biased so that we presume consistency to exist where it does not. And this is exactly what you have done.
Pure wine does not mean fully fledged alcohol as you mistakenly tried to argue in vain. All 1.57 billion Muslims can tell you that and can also confirm pure wine meaning wine which will not intoxicant thus meaning intoxicant free wine (alcohol free). Just like what is available around the world. ALCOHOL FREE. Which is in line with Muslims not being permitted to drink, therefore the Quran will never contradict.
So in essence, we will be drinking wine whether alcoholic or not, (even though we know it is non alcoholic) and getting our legs over with 72 females in heaven, whilst you will be burning and rotting in hell getting no wine and no leg over.
I 'll take my chances with the wine and 72 virgins all day long!
I know……it sucks being you.
😀
Can you EVER give a serious answer . . . or is the extent of your knowledge . . . sticking few ha ha ha ha here and there?
"earth is spread like a carpet . "
Which doesn't equal to being flat.
– – –
"suddenly it was changed to egg .you muslims are greatest cheaters now your taqqiya isn't going to work "
Obviously – you don't know what the hell you are talking about – look the word up in Classical dictionaries for meaning.
No one has changed the meaning to anything other than what is was . . . .
[Edip Yuksel simply does what he likes – exception to the rule]
' dahaha' —- the apologetic meaning is ha ha ha ha ha
dahaha actual meaning is spread out, stretched.
Muslim apologetics say it means egg shaped.
Taqiyya practitioners. The Quran can be stretched out and stretched in to fit in with anything. Move out contortionists. The apologetics are making you redundant.
AND you seem like a muslim 😀
where in quran says that you can't get high with the allah's wine?
just assumptions
PONZI scheme hahahhaa:D
Red herring
ad hominem 😀
dear ,
i am not claiming anything about god . so burden of proof is on you.
muslims you are at the epitome of stupidity
earth is spread like a carpet . many translations told this. suddenly it was changed to egg .you muslims are greatest cheaters now your taqqiya isn't going to work
"in Quran muhammad says wine is satans handiwork and again in the same quran it says that for muslims there will be wine in heaven. can't you see contradictions? "
Denialisnoproof,you really want us to explain that?
You seem to be a Hindu.
"Man can't give birth so god is uncreated"
Okay then smarty,why don't YOU tell us who created God?
"Before zakir naik started dawah earth was flat according to quran translations."
According to WHICH translation denialisnoproof?
"if he was so good why is he scared to debate ali sina? "
Sina,are you reading this?
Get in contact with Eddie of TheDeenShow. Come on a live show and announce your challenge to Dr.Zakir Naik.
________What am I to expect from someone who worships idols and believes the elephant created him_______
And what can I expect from the people who bow before stones like kaaba etc.
What can I expect who circumambulate the Kaba stone/kaba idol
How can I make understand to the people who are blind believer that they believe in all these nonsense:-
"Idol of an idol worshipper spoke to Muhammad! It gave testimony of Muhammad’s prophethood to its worshipper and then he became Muslim!"
"Allah turned many people into monkeys!"
"Allah created she-camel from a stone!"
"Abraham killed a peacock, crow, cock and sparrow and kept their heads with him. Then he mixed their bodies and wings. Now when he called them, all the pieces went back and joined with each other to make these birds living again!"
@nazrul
Imagination is the perfect word I see.
What am I to expect from someone who worships idols and believes the elephant created him?
If you can worship dogs and cows, how you going to understand simple words in human languages? You've gone from wine, to pure blend of alcohol within one day. Next, you'll be saying, Kingfisher! What a retard.
I know English is not your first language and can forgive you for not understanding, but the stupidity part, that is unforgivable. Were you actually born stupid or did Hinduism turn you stupid? Which one?
I told you before, you're not the brightest of sparks and Zakir Naik is dealing with you guys appropriately and concisely. It's just a shame he doesn't do it more regularly.
I think I'm gonna have to go back to the language you do understand. Hindu PORN!
And tahurun means pure so sharaban tahurun means pure blend of alcohol.
allah is a virgin provider
allah is also a bar tender
hahahaha
nowhere in the quran it is mentioned that you can't get high from the wine in heaven
it is just your assumption to save your face
just like ostrich egg
Taqqiya
2+2= 4 hahahha
supporting rape in the name of religion huh?
if he was so good why is he scared to debate ali sina?
he can only fool people with his cheap uneducated audience .All he does is logical fallacy. Man can't give birth so god is uncreated. only muslims are his fans
that explains everything
dude stop your nonsense. Before zakir naik started dawah earth was flat according to quran translations. suddenly he started bullshit of ostrich egg .
you seriously are an idiot.
Here is ANOTHER attempt at petty FALSIFICATION by Sina . . . this is classic and so typical of him.
– – –
It is simply illogical not to deal with evidence that is against what you claim effectively. Else you will get a beating . . .
Look at where this image comes from – someone with too much time on their hand – talking about CS Lewis and creation of his – and there being a secret code of Narnia!
This is indicative of his book too . . . where his main expert of psychology isn't an expert at all – but an amateur hobbyist.
As I said there – was NO one over riding theory of "seven heaven" which uniformly existed.
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres#Em…
There are several . . . with many random numbers of "layers"
What Sina portrays from this Narnia Expert is . . . model portrayed by Peter Apian's – comographia.
Even here . . . count the alleged layers . . . they are in total EIGTH and not seven. . . . they are Seven EXTRA. . . . not TOTAL SEVEN.
An extrat – from Wiki:
"The planetary spheres were followed by the stellar sphere containing the fixed stars; other scholars added a ninth sphere to account for the precession of the equinoxes, a tenth to account for the supposed trepidation of the equinoxes, and even an eleventh to account for the changing obliquity of the ecliptic.[29] In antiquity the order of the lower planets was not universally agreed. Plato and his followers ordered them Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, and then followed the standard model for the upper spheres.[30][31] Others disagreed about the relative place of the spheres of Mercury and Venus: Ptolemy placed both of them beneath the Sun with Venus above Mercury, but noted others placed them both above the Sun"
– – –
There is no unified ancient theory of seven heaven – and neither does it have
– – –
There has to be historical link – as I have mentioned earlier – these things are simply good at appearance and that ONLY from one side or aspect. . .
The deeper you look at it – the wider the cracks appear
Also . . . read the comment below – when i challenged something of Sina's he had his usual fit . . . and attempted to abuse me – rather than concentrating on the subject at hand . . .
. . . it is a bit obvious – when some one does such like – that they are hiding something. Ignorance or deliberate lies. . . whatever it is in this case!
This is why what the experts take to be as evidence and the methodologies they employ are so different – and do not throw about any old theory.
– – –
If you read Sina's book he attempts portray Prophet Muhammad as very ill man . . . with quit a few psychological traumas and illness to cope with.
However . . . on the other hand . .. he claims this is the same scholar who managed to copy – and re-invent – ancient history, science and religion . . . ?
The two . . . . are simply impossible to corroborate . . .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Sina's methodology is simple:
If he reads something against Islam – his 1st instinct is to accept it – if it sounds plausible. This is because he is motivated by extreme hatred for Islam and Muslims.
Needless to explain . . . this is highly flawed method – and open to challenge.
People who tend to "LOL" in a serious argument/conversation. . . tend be covering something up.
I would point to how you attempted to have superior knowledge of law or logic – than me – then you fell flat – by saying the wrong thing.
– – –
"Obviously you have no clue about physics. Stars become stars because of their large mass. The smallest star can accommodates inside its belly hundreds of thousands of Earth size planets. They can't fall in a field. Gosh this is so funny. LOL. "
What has this do do with . . . expanse of the universe?
– – –
"Furthermore stars are far away from the Earth. Their light reach us after thousands of years. No matter can travel at the speed of light. Assuming God throws them at Earth it will take hundreds of thousands of years for them to reach the Earth. By then the Jinns are long gone. "
Wo Woa – another little falsification attempt . . .
Who said ANYTHING about throwing at demons that were wandering about near Earth?
Where did you get that from?
See how Sina falsifies? Attempts anyway. . .
– – –
"I am really saddened for the metal state of you Muslims. It is no wonder all Islamic countries are so backwards. "
Again . . . when he knows he hasn't really got an arguments AGAINST THE QURAN AT ALL
And he is CLEARLY OUT OF HIS DEPTH. . . . he resorts to type by venting his rhetoric.
– – –
Quran verses are about something else – what Sina starts to talk about is completely different. . . the two don't go together at all.
= = =
"If they are too far away then how can God throw them at jinns? I don't understand what you are saying. "
Other star systems are NOT in the vicinity of the Earth. . . so how can they have an effect?
= = =
"This is the interpretation. You should check the origin of this term. It is the assembly of Gods and not angels. "
Actually – burden of proof rests on you . . . as you claim what this allegedly means . . . then it up to you to provide the evidence.
Also . . . . it is perfectly reasonable too assume that you have already checked this out . . . and have the relevant material handy.
Why so hesitant?
– – –
Look at ANOTHER FALSIFICATION:
""Considering you are the one who brought this up . . . . care to elaborate . . . and we will explore this further?" "
This belonged with asking about his Exalted Assembly claim . . . yet he goes on to another bogus spiel . . .
. . . just to avoid answering.
HOW LAME!
– – –
"When you can't grasp the absurdity of stars as big as Sun being thrown at jinns, something so elemental to understand and so graphic how can you understand things that are conceptual? "
a) it is simply YOU who is wrong about this . . .
b) what is so conceptual about the Exalted Assembly?
You made the claim . . . I asked to elaborate . . . look at what you have done . . . averted it to something else.
JUST LOOK AT HOW OFTEN YOU LIE . . . I HAVE EXPOSED THIS SEVERAL TIMES OVER.
EITHER THAT – OR YOU WILL RESORT TO ABUSING ME.
THAT IS ER . . . . WHAT YOU CALL TO BE "RATIONAL"
= = =
"Throwing stars at some imaginary creatures on Earth without destroying the solar system is impossible."
Look again dearie . . . who said anything about the Earth?
Quran Surah 37:
"Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars"
"And as protection against every rebellious devil"
"[So] they may not listen to the exalted assembly [of angels] and are pelted from every side,"
Oh.. now it becomes 'Allah didn't say it was non alcoholic wine' does it? Exactly what does sharaban tahuran mean Mr Einstein?
It told you Hindus before, to stop changing goalposts in order for the glove to fit. Now it's clutching at straws. I suggest you stick your own idol worshipping roots and study your own religion before even considering commenting on the Quran.
Exactly when did you become this expert in Arabic when even English is proving difficult you?
Zakir Naik is doing a great job and each and every time your types get on that microphone for the questions and answers sessions, he just hammers you guys with facts and puts you back in the place you belong. Have you ever got up and asked your questions yet? If not, why don't you?
I think this will suffice for now, because any more information will overload your brain.
“Presumably a star can easily be thrown in a field that is BIG enough to contain it.”
Obviously you have no clue about physics. Stars become stars because of their large mass. The smallest star can accommodates inside its belly hundreds of thousands of Earth size planets. They can’t fall in a field. Gosh this is so funny. LOL.
Furthermore stars are far away from the Earth. Their light reach us after thousands of years. No matter can travel at the speed of light. Assuming God throws them at Earth it will take hundreds of thousands of years for them to reach the Earth. By then the Jinns are long gone.
I am really saddened for the metal state of you Muslims. It is no wonder all Islamic countries are so backwards.
You did not explain what happened to the previous stars that were thrown at jinns.
“Yet they are too far away – to even come close to Our solar system . . . which in the vastness of even our galaxy – is comparatively small.
Only significance? The Earth. ”
If they are too far away then how can God throw them at jinns? I don’t understand what you are saying.
I asked, Do you know what is the Exalted Assembly?
You responded
“Yes . . . Angels – this is actually fairly consistent with Muslim theology. Muslim consider Satan (Iblis) to be a Jinn (another species) who had risen the ranks of angels”
This is the interpretation. You should check the origin of this term. It is the assembly of Gods and not angels.
“Considering you are the one who brought this up . . . . care to elaborate . . . and we will explore this further?”
You can’t explore anything further. Your brain is fossilized. When you can’t grasp the absurdity of stars as big as Sun being thrown at jinns, something so elemental to understand and so graphic how can you understand things that are conceptual?
The claim that God throws stars at jinns is ridiculous. But you shrug it off saying God is omnipotent. This clearly shows your brain is paralyzed. It is impossible for you to find the truth. Any obvious stupidity for you is acceptable because you say Allah can do it. No Allah can’t do the impossible. Throwing stars at some imaginary creatures on Earth without destroying the solar system is impossible.
Your Allah didn't tell that it is non alcholic wine. It's just your assumption.
So I can also assume that Islamic hell fire is non burning.
did you read about ponzi scheme.
99% of ali sina fans are hindus?
may be because zakir naik here in india tells people it is ok for a muslim to have sex with slave non muslim girl . So we are disgusted at islam
I take it as yelling and excuse. There is no alternative to success !
I am not going to criticize or prove wrong this president to people and this is not going to end this presidency. The only possible way is I will be or I will give a better president !
Rehashed it from where . . . ? All you have done is alleged a bogus claim.
Again this – is commonly found work on Christians sites.
Elaborate . . . and we will look at it
– – –
This is one reason . . . like Hirsi-Ali Sina is so reluctant to dismiss Christianity. . . and the support and patronage of Spencer.
"Is that a smart answer? Look at the size of the Earth in relation to the Sun. (click on the link. The image is not showing well)"
Yes it is a smart answer. Look at the size of the Universe that contains galaxies of these planets and stars.
The question is simple one of relative size. Which you conveniently forgot to mention.
Presumably a star can easily be thrown in a field that is BIG enough to contain it.
– – –
"Some stars are a million times bigger than our sun. How can God throw them at jinns and not destroy the solar system? "
Yet they are too far away – to even come close to Our solar system . . . which in the vastness of even our galaxy – is comparatively small.
Only significance? The Earth.
– – –
"Muhammad watched the sky and saw the meteorites and like everyone else of his time, he thought they are shooting stars."
No he didn't. . . this is pure speculation . . . and unoriginal – again mentioned more or less only by the Christians.
Do you know stuff like this always does the rounds. . . same tired old argument – lacking any proof.
– – –
"Do you know what is the Exalted Assembly? Of course you don't. "
Yes . . . Angels – this is actually fairly consistent with Muslim theology. Muslim consider Satan (Iblis) to be a Jinn (another species) who had risen the ranks of angels.
– – –
"The Exalted Assembly is the assembly of gods. You find reference to that in the religion of Babylonian and Canaanites all all polytheistic religions. "
Do you where . . . see – if we start to go into details of this . . . it will become pretty apparent that – the two simply are NOT the same thing at all.
Considering you are the one who brought this up . . . . care to elaborate . . . and we will explore this further?
= = =
Such claims are only palatable in the broadest generalizations . . . and begin to fall apart very quickly.
@denialisproof. Have you ever heard of non alcoholic wine Einstein? They actually sell it in the shops as we speak, let alone in heaven!
As a matter of fact, you can also get even more variety here: http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk
Not too bright, are we?
Go on, run along.
you have a strong faith. which is very detriment to rational thinking.
in Quran muhammad says wine is satans handiwork
and again in the same quran it says that for muslims there will be wine in heaven.
can't you see contradictions?
You should read about PONZI scheme before you practise islam
I doubt it very much denialisnoproof. Seen your posts about Islam.
😉
"I am not selling myself, so your argument is moot. "
What? Shoving that piddly little book? And that ain't selling yourself?
Come on pull the other one.
I ali I really appreciate your faith
This is red herring fallacy. I did not talk about myself being more successful or smarter. I am not selling myself, so your argument is moot. I am giving rational arguments to prove Muhammad was a liar. You have to disprove my arguments.
Exactly which portions Ali Sina? Please enlighten us.
@TruthSeeker. But 2 of the 3 so called cults are the world's largest groups. Christianity and Islam. And are the dominant forces along with Judaism.
Just like in India, main religions are Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism.
In East Asia, which make use of the concept of Tao (in Chinese) or Dō (in Japanese or Korean), namely Taoism and Confucianism.
Indigenous ethnic religions, formerly found on every continent, now marginalized by the major organized faiths, but persisting as undercurrents of folk religion. Includes traditional African religions, Asian Shamanism, Native American religions, Austronesian and Australian Aboriginal traditions, Chinese folk religion, and postwar Shinto.
But the fact remains, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the heavy hitters and it is for this reason you guys have insecurities and want to bring Islam down, which for the record is a losing battle and will never happen in your lifetime or a 100 lifetimes.
The sooner you accept this, the easier it will be on you losers.
If God didn't send down Messengers, people like you would then claim why hasn't God sent down a Messenger from amongst us. This is already explained and dealt with by God. For the Non Believers like you, no matter what happens or what God does, you will always not believe in God and make one excuse after another.
The Quran sums it up perfectly for your types:
15:14 Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,
15:15 They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery."
So who cares what you believe or don't believe. No one but you.
Get over it.
@Ali
_______Islam is not something new is it______
Is it not new Shahada lā ʾilāha ʾillà l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lā?
______ It is the final volume from a chain of volumes________
Does Allah laws not perfect to be applicable in all ages as law of gravitation.
________Judaism, Christianity and Islam all belong to the same family.___
Yes, these three cult believe in the concept of sending postman/messenger with a massage. As per these cults Allah can not send the messages without postmen. But Why Allah use postmen in place of email, fax, telephone etc. And what can be other mean receiving the revelations at fastest speed. Can God pass the message without postmen, email, telephone etc.? A child know how he/she has to take the milk from the breast of mother. From mouth, hands, legs? How child got the knowledge without postman/prophet. It is intuitive knowledge. A highly elevated souls approach the truth through intuitive knowledge.
But Ali Sina, Islam is not something new is it? It is the final volume from a chain of volumes. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all belong to the same family. So it is inevitable and natural, certain traits and elements are going to be found in all family members. Not only is this common knowledge, but it's also common sense, which is something that constantly deludes you.
After all, you have to plug Zoroastrianism, as it is part of the Iranian history which you claim to belong to, even though I think you are Indian!.
Do you also believe Zoroaster was a mad man because according to Zoroastrian belief, when Zoroaster was 30 years old, he went into the Daiti river to draw water for a Haoma ceremony; when he emerged, he received a vision of Vohu Manah. After this, Vohu Manah took him to the other six Amesha Spentas, where he received the completion of his vision?
Zoroaster's ideas did not take off quickly, and, at first, he only had one convert: his cousin Maidhyoimanha. The local religious authorities opposed his ideas. They felt their own faiths, power, and particularly their rituals, were threatened because Zoroaster taught against over-ritualising religious ceremonies. Many ordinary people did not like Zoroaster's downgrading of the Daevas to evil spirits. After 12 years, Zoroaster left his home to find somewhere more open to new ideas.
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.
And you think you are more brilliant than most successful man as a person regarding formulating concepts , designing and implementing systems , building a community , enforcing law and order , organizing and ruling governance.
Can I get a story of success not an excuse from your end having more caliber? Yelling from opposition end will be ignored !
To a great extent yes. But also a good portion of it is plagiarized from other religious traditions.
Islam’s eschatology,i.e. its belief in afterlife, hell and heaven is plagiarized from Zoroastrianism.
Its theology is plagiarized from Judaism and
Its rites and rituals are plagiarized from Arab paganism.
Do you think Quran is brain child of Muhammad (pbuh) ?
That is true. But Muhammad did not know what exactly the Exalted Assembly means. He head the word Mala’e A’la and rehashed it without realizing its meaning.
If Muhammad had mentioned of Exalted Assembly, then surely it indicates not one single God but many Gods = the assembly of gods. So, monotheism kicked out by Mohammad through the backdoor.
I asked,”How can stars be thrown at jinns? If one start comes close to our solar system all of us will perish. The stupidity of the Quran is unfathomable. ”
you responded, “One would imagine that an omnipotent God – would know how to take care of the universe we live in. ”
Is that a smart answer? Look at the size of the Earth in relation to the Sun. (click on the link. The image is not showing well)
http://www.suntrek.org/images/Comparing-the-size-of-the-Sun-to-Earth.jpg
Some stars are a million times bigger than our sun. How can God throw them at jinns and not destroy the solar system? Can’t he find a smaller rock to throw at them? Isn’t that a bit overkill? Stupidity is indeed a bottomless pit.
Why Muhammad would say such an asininity? It is because that ignoramus believed the meteorites are shooting stars. This was the common belief held by the ancient people. But meteorites are tiny rocks sometimes as small as a pea or even smaller. They glow when they enter the Earth’s atmosphere at such a high speed and most of them melt in one or two seconds.
Muhammad watched the sky and saw the meteorites and like everyone else of his time, he thought they are shooting stars. He then added his fable that they are thrown at the jinns when they eavesdrop to hear the conversation of the Exalted Assembly.
Do you know what is the Exalted Assembly? Of course you don’t. Not even Muhammad knew. he heard it and rehashed it. The Exalted Assembly is the assembly of gods. You find reference to that in the religion of Babylonian and Canaanites all all polytheistic religions.
Actually this Post / Article is not good or adequate enough.
http://alisina.org/blog/2010/11/11/layers-of-heav…
Some of it is simply modern invention – Muslims attempting to equate the Quran to Modern science . . . and some your own falsification.
I have read this before and pointed some "falsifications" out already.
Also it doesn't relate to the above.
– – –
You are good at a "fit-up" – as elucidated greatly by your book.
The article does not relate to any Muslim sources or astronomy developed by Muslim scientists.
There is wealth of data available on both counts . . . and philosophical as an added bonus.
So why why is your research thoroughly lacking?
– – –
Your little falsification above was:
"How can then these stars be located in the lower heaven, i.e. below the Moon?"
Where is your evidence for this?
Pointing to past fallacious material doesn't answer this.
– – –
Again this is indicative of how Sina answers . . . or fails to to answer.
Generally he resorts to spiels of rhetoric or pointing out to material elsewhere.
– – –
The concept of seven heavens is not an invention of Muhammad. This was an ancient belief held by everyone until it was overturned by Copernicus in the 16th century. According to ancient cosmology, the seven planets, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and also the Sun and the Moon, which are not planets at all, revolved around the Earth and each had its own layer of heaven as show in this picture.
http://www.planetnarnia.com/assets/images/94/Cosmos.jpg
This picture shows the stars are above the planets. Muhammad thought they are below them, in the lower heaven.
Now we have a lot more understanding of the universe. There are no seven heavens. This is the picture of the universe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/WMAP_2010.png/220px-WMAP_2010.png
No it does not suggest it is a divine book. That is subjective thinking. At one point the sound of adhan was the best melody to my ears. Today I find it more annoying that at bray of a donkey. I utterly hate the chanting of the Quran, when one day I loved it. It is all subjective and has to do with classical conditioning. Neither my love nor my hatred of the adhan is objective. Feelings by their nature are never objective.
Read about cults and watch the documentaries about them on youtube. Watch how the cultists are mesmerized by their psychopath leader. This is called brainwashing. You should never allow your subjective feeling cloud your rational thinking.
Watch this video. See the devotion these cultists have for their psychopath leader. This happens when you allow emotions take over your reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML2Oa4Oigvo
People in the time of Muhammad perfectly understood the concept of lower heaven. It was a concept they were familiar with.
In this post I show a diagram of the universe at the time of Muhammad. This is what Muhammad is talking about. http://alisina.org/blog/2010/11/11/layers-of-heav… He, like everyone else in his time believed there are seven heavens and God’s throne is placed in the seventh heaven.
Here you can find the concept of Islamic cosmos graphically demonstrated. http://alisina.org/blog/2011/01/17/islamic-cosmos…
The stars are lamps that decorate the lower heaven, much like lights hanging from a ballroom.
This image shows how ancient people understood the cosmos and everything Muhammad says is describing this ancient universe.
http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fsm-cosmic-sphere.jpg
Here is your falsification:
"How can then these stars be located in the lower heaven, i.e. below the Moon?"
There is absolutely NO mention of the lower heaven to be er . . . below the moon.
You simply made that up.
– – –
Also if you had bothered to check you references up:
In Arabic Quran refers to this "lower heaven" simply as
السماء الدنيا – which is interpreted as first or lowest heaven.
– – –
"How can stars be thrown at jinns? If one start comes close to our solar system all of us will perish. The stupidity of the Quran is unfathomable. "
One would imagine that an omnipotent God – would know how to take care of the universe we live in.
– – –
"Aren’t you embarrassed for making a fool of yourself and defending an utterly idiotic book? How can an omnipotent God make this idiocy sound logical and scientific? "
I asked you to explain . . . all you did was a bit your own "creative interpretation" (some would call it lying) and then – its the old rhetoric. . . which you are good at repeating . . . and repeat it often you do.
Take that away. . . aren't you a little embarrassed that you could not even explain the above adequately.
Just because you pad out your comment with rhetoric . . . it doesn't mean I won't be able to strip away and expose your inadequacy.
– – –
"It is great that you say things like this. You prove my point that Islam destroys the brain and reduces an otherwise normal person into a zombie. "
This attempt to demean me in such way . . . . is simply illogical. You have done this before . . . . When you are unable to answer to cover up by having a go at the person. . . may be you need to read this again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Why is it that you resort to insulting me every time? Last time you imagined – that you had "mauled and humiliated me". . . . before that I was evil . . . and so on.
Might I suggest – the inadequacy is with you . . . . even your ardent supporters begin to agree.
When ti suits you claim to have studied Islam – then you cannot speak a word of Arabic. And your knowledge of even the basics is lacking. . . . for example your understanding of Zakah.
You claim to have adequate grasp of "rational and logical methods" and they are your guiding principles . . . yet
As I have repeatedly proven . . . you employ no such methodology in any of your site Articles or your Book.
– – –
This is favourite methods of "trolls" – when they run out of an argument – they resort to rhetoric – in an attempt to make that count as solid argument. Fallacious logic – on several counts.
If you strip away all the nonsense rhetoric – Sina couldn't actually articulate why those Quranic verses are either unscientific or illogical – without resorting to falsification.
Sir I disagree, I really get mesmerized while I recite the verses of Quran which suggests it is a divine book.
@Ali Sina
According to what I remember seeing, all that we see of the universe is perhaps the first heaven. So question of stars in lowest sky is refuted here.
Prove that these stars are 100,000 light years away please Ali Sina?
“A really simple question again . . . What is either unscientific or illogical about it?
The main logic or not – is the question of omnipotent God.”
Some stars are thousands and even millions of times larger than our sun. Our sun is 1,300,000 times larger than the Earth. The closest star to us is 4 light years away. Its light takes 4 years to reach us. Other stars are farther away up to 100,000 light years away. It takes only 1.26 second for light from the Moon to reach us. How can then these stars be located in the lower heaven, i.e. below the Moon? Only a small star can engulf the Earth and the Moon if placed between them. The whole concept is so ludicrous that is beyond explanation. The stupidity of the Quran is such that not even an omnipotent God can resolve it.
Then we are supposed to believe God throws these stars at jinns when they eavesdrop to the conversation of the exalted assembly. How can stars be thrown at jinns? If one start comes close to our solar system all of us will perish. The stupidity of the Quran is unfathomable.
Aren’t you embarrassed for making a fool of yourself and defending an utterly idiotic book? How can an omnipotent God make this idiocy sound logical and scientific?
It is great that you say things like this. You prove my point that Islam destroys the brain and reduces an otherwise normal person into a zombie. How cold our planet survive if God constantly throws stars at some creatures on Earth? What happens to those stars thrown at Earth? One star can destroy our solar system and the Quran says numerous of them are thrown at the Jinns in such a way that we don’t even notice.
Muhammad’s ignorance can be forgiven. No one in his time knew these things. How can we forgive your ignorance? You know these things or should know. You are a brain dead zombie. Look what Islam does to human brain.
"Is this scientific? Is this logical? the entire Qurna is filled with nonsense like these. "
A really simple question again . . . What is either unscientific or illogical about it?
The main logic or not – is the question of omnipotent God. A point you choose to ignore.
– – –
You go around leaving such messages all over . . . why don't you try your own advice for a change.
– – –
Incidentally – last time I objected to such meaningless message – Sina went berserk. . . and started to insult me personally.
Instead of counting the words of the Quran you should pay attention to their meaning. They are stupid. Just see these verses where Muhammad believes stars are in the lower sky and are lamps that God throws at jins and demons.
Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…
Quran 37: 6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.
Is this scientific? Is this logical? the entire Qurna is filled with nonsense like these.
"The Quran is full of very stupid statements. No real god can be so stupid as the alleged author of the Quran. "
No it isn't – that is simply your incessant hate. We have established that.
– – –
Merely going around posting this everywhere – does it make you feel better?
– – –
"Is the Quran coherent? Is is sensible and logical? Does it reveal any knowledge that common folk of his time could not have known. No, and no and no. "
You cannot even read the book . . . what are you on about? How can it ever be . . .
For it its purpose its is perfectly logical and highly successful . . . inadvertently EVEN YOU admit this.
Who the hell are you. . . . some of the finest Western minds have studied the book – and the book wins hands down.
I doubt even the Bible has received such treatment as the Quran. . . . So the "f***" are you?
Just because the Quran is bulky does not mean it is intelligent. The asininity of the book is evident that it is written by one utterly unread and unlettered. He did not write the book. He dictated it. Allah who allegedly taught him so many things did not teach him how to write. If you follow any idiot and write down everything he says you can write volumes. Is the Quran coherent? Is is sensible and logical? Does it reveal any knowledge that common folk of his time could not have known. No, and no and no.
The Quran is full of very stupid statements. No real god can be so stupid as the alleged author of the Quran.
"The only authority we acknowledge is reason and logic".
Logically such a bulky book (Quran) cannot be invented by an illiterate person. Logic dictates us to believe that Quran is the word of God and Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. It is possible and I think so that apparently erroneous looking points to human insight might have biggest internal mysteries as God's strategies cannot be understood by ordinary calculations.
True. It's enough to read news, if someone doesn't trust official news, he can still search online. In Italy just few days ago a woman was beaten by his father because she refused to marry a muslim man (and she wanted to integrate with italians)
About muslims using taqqyia, I saw it in real life twice.
"any u shud stick to what people want to discuss here its not about Hindus But Muslims.. "
Like I said . . . if Hindus don't want themselves discussed – then . You can dish it out – but start bleating when its turned on you.
Well some people want to discuss HINDUISM – given how many nasties turn up.
– – –
Massacre of Jammu – at around '47. And my parents are from that region. . . so don't start with denials – especially with nothing to go on.
Show 1 instance in history where Hindus attacked other's or Muslims….insted its alway's other way around they r the who were attaked all the time….
any u shud stick to what people want to discuss here its not about Hindus But Muslims..
"Instead of defending the wrong doing of muhamad/allah/kuran idiot muslims have brought in Hindu and attacking it….means they know they can't defend Islam witout attacting other's religion…. "
Surely the interesting question is . . . why the Hindus go around attacking others? If your brethren hadn't put their nose in. . . no one would be mentioning Hinduism . . . would they?
Instead of defending the wrong doing of muhamad/allah/kuran idiot muslims have brought in Hindu and attacking it….means they know they can't defend Islam witout attacting other's religion….
Mr. or miss muslim…Hindus have the right to disobey/through in trash anything which they think is not correct be it veds,manu samriti,geeta whatever….
can u do it with Quran????????
Last time I checked Muslims constitute less than 20% of the population. So why your politicians depend on them for vote bank? It is because the non-Muslim Indians are divided. If you rally around a party that promises to fight Islamic expansion in India, 20% can’t do much?
Why should the Hindus subsidize hajj for Muslims when that money can be used to give a computer to every Indian student? Indians with computer can earn money. They can offer their services to people all over the world and this can bring billions of dollars into India. What is the benefit of financing hajj?
There are many flaws in your system. You first must fix those flaws. Another flaw is the caste system. This is a hole in the floor of your country’s ship. This is what is sinking the country. It allows many Hindus to convert to Islam. Fix that hole first if you want to save your country.
If the country is a democracy why books critical of Islam are banned? You can’t have democracy without freedom of speech.
There are flaws in your religion, flaws in your political system and it is obvious that you lose. Fix those flaws first.
You can’t elevate an animal to human status by harsh measures. What do you mean by harsh measures? Shall we beat Muslims, kill them and imprison them the way Khomeini did with his opponents to “convert them to humans” as he used to say?
The only way to convert a sub-human into human is through education. That is not a slow way. It is the only way. What we are doing in this site and in faithfreedom.org is the only way. There is no other way. Naturally we can do more such as produce movies, and radio/tv programs. But all these are the same way.
We should only use force if Muslims resort to violence. Then we must not turn the other cheek. Pacifism does not work always. Most of the time it does not work.
"What about us, Indians. What are we to do with the cancerous muslim population
and the additional Bangladeshi muslims who mingle freely with Indian muslims. "
Live together – as people have done for centuries.
Aren't these Muslims – the same people. . . who speak the same language. . . eat the same food. . . speak the same language. . . same race . . . except for the religion?
And isn't this the best way to get a leg over Pakistan – that its choice was the wrong one. . .
. . . or the Muslims will once again form another nation?
"That is a noble venture. It may require Harsh measures "
This how Hitler justified his actions . . . in fact how everyone his ilk does.
– – –
As a Hindu shouldn't you be concentrating on the dignity of the Caste system.
– – –
"Do muslims ever debate logically with other systems of philosophy? "
Well . . . now that is denying your Hindu history.
Do muslims allow other belief systems to live in dignity?
Do muslims ever debate logically with other systems of philosophy?
Muslims need to be uplifted from their present animal Nature to
basic Human nature. That is a noble venture. It may require Harsh
measures
you may have the luxury of sending back muslims from your countries.
What about us, Indians. What are we to do with the cancerous muslim population
and the additional Bangladeshi muslims who mingle freely with Indian muslims.
“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry” –
Edgar Allan Poe
" In Holland we have professor Hans Jansen, a verifiable Islam-expert to your hearts's content. I have read him and there is a huge area of agreement between him and Ali Sina. "
What of him have you read . . . and in what does he agree with SIna?
– – –
"As I said; it seems to me that there are alternatives to Islam in politics and science, "
Islam and Science – are two different things altogether . . to collude the way you have done is simply illogical and devious.
Islam isn't mere "politics" either. Islam for example is far closer to democracy than Monarchism – yet it survived Monarchy.
– – –
"moreover that there are victims of Muslims because of Islam's influence and Ali Sina is in my opinion motivated to help those. and to let mankind progress. "
You are dead set – in preserving Sina reputation. . .
But that is impossible task. . . not whilst his Work is so present.
That is why you are NOT letting go of this agenda.
Sina – is a troll. Nothing more than a hatemonger. There are many that seek validity through the for their crack pot theories.
It is real easy.
If he is that MOTIVATED . . . . why hasn't he gone through the legitimate route?
Hence why he seeks legitimacy by "debates" with Muslim scholars of repute.
"If you choose to stick with Islam however, you will continue to see it bashed here, with proofs for all to see. "
What proofs? Like the shenanigans above?
Why is it when it came down to it – Sina failed?
– – –
He doesn't even have 1st hand understanding of the Quran. . . . hence the not needing Arabic business.
Yet any half decent academic – will go and do just that.
– – –
As for lying . . . and utter deception. Those are added bonus!
" But I did not label you; i said that IF you acted in a certain negative way, THEN it would seem that …. "
And what did you say next?
– – –
"I like to compare the discussions on this website with a trial. A part of Islam and a part of the Muslims, and yes, Mohammed especially, these are on trial. "
huh? If you have judges likes Sina . . . well. Fair doesn't even come to it.
– – –
"Ali Sina is the prosecutor, Muslims are the defenders. And let us let the judge and jury together decide. With these are meant the readers. "
Ha ha ha ha . . . . that is IDIOTIC. As there is NO SUCH THING AS UNBIASED READER.
Either Muslim
Or non-Muslims.
See – some of the stupidity you come out with .
– – –
"Is it really a good defense to accuse the prosecutor of being a hate-monger?! How credible is that? "
You BUILD the BS up that . . . Sina is some kind of prosecutor. . .
I didn't – and its total BS.
On the one hand you claim that he is UNDER SCRUTINY . . .
. . . and when he is SCRUTINIZED then you start squealing.
The 2 don't go together.
Sine is a hate monger – because of his hate mongering . . . even you have attested to that.
When you said . . . about the bits you don't agree with about Sina.
– – –
"Granted, you did give some examples of Ali Sina deceiving, according to you."
There you go . . . THIS SAYS IT ALL.
I can successfully prove him to be a liar.
– – –
"And he accuses many Muslims of the same deceiving attitude and he provides ample clues for it too. "
2 wrongs dont make a right. How can he accuse other when he commits the same?
– – –
"So much of what you accuse others of applies as possibility for yourself and the Muslim side too! "
Prove it? I am NOT interested in anyone else here. . .
But my self.
– – –
You seem dead eager to protect Sina. . . one wonder why.
That is repeatedly where your arguments lead to.
@Ali Sina,
Could anyone have imagined 15-20 years back that Muslims will be made to discuss about Islam/Mohammed in this fashion. They would have responded in only way it is prescribed to them ,by violence.This starting of dialogue is beginning of End of Islam. Knowledge and truth is the biggest anti-dote for ideologies which thrive on Fear. Hatred and Ignorance.. Initially there will be resistance like what we are seeing in exchanges of Muslims here. They are obstinate as they have always been programmed to be like that. It always is painful to give up something that you have always been made to believe ias the right thing , even when you have fully realised that it is useless and a lie.They will have to go through this process of pain.
People like Ali Sina are doing a fine job in drawing Muslims out for discussion .Death of Islam is round the corner. However hard Muslims may claim about fastest growing religion , which itself is a big hoax.( It is only breeding which is increasing Muslim population. Even Hindus have grown in last 100 years from around 250 million to 1 billion today. By the way, Hindus and Budhism which are sister religions of Dharmic tradition ( not enemy like Abrahmnic religion sisters) have atleast 80-90% more population than Muslims. It is violent nature of Muslims due to bad influence of Islam that they are in limelight – Bad Limelight and look more in number than their actual numbers.).There are more Muslims leaving very silently due to fear. However any person converting to Islam is always very loud as he/she does not have to fear. So it seems as if more people are converting to Islam.
You repeatedly pressed for some kind of acceptance of "Sina" by me. That I find highly suspicious.
You methods of arguments were illogical and mostly did not make sense.
– – –
What the hell is it to you what I think or make of Sina. Why are you so keen to change my mind?
The Golden Rule is Universal in approach. In the whole world, only the Muslims shun this Golden Rule.
The Golden Rule and Islam http://alisina.org/the-golden-rule-and-islam/
Islamic Text on the Golden Rule:
The Quran:
“Serve God, and join not any partners with Him; and do good – to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [the slave]: For God loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious” (Q:4:36)
(In fact the Quran goes beyond saying the Golden Rule by stating in more than four places that “Return evil with Kindness.” (13:22, 23:96, 41:34, 28:54, 42:40)
READ THE WORDS ABOVE : Return evil with kindness is stated in Quran.
Mohammad returned kindness with evil.
Medinians (the people of Yathrib) gave him refuge. Made him their guest. He killed the people of Medina cold heartedly. Mohammad killed his hosts cruelly.
True worship of God
worship does not mean some mechanical recitations or blankness of mind. It is a proactive approach to imbibe wisdom through actions, knowledge and contemplation.
Basically worship of Ishwar lies in each act that we perform in our life. True worship implies following the ‘inner voice’ on a continuous basis. This is called living life of Yajna – selfless acts dedicated only to noble purposes.
This is called worship through actions. However to ensure that one conducts his life purely in a noble manner without deviations, one has to practice on two more aspects:
a. Seeking knowledge
b. Contemplation on the knowledge to imbibe the same as part of our sanskaars.
The trio of Knowledge-Contemplation-Actions go hand in hand and are fruitless in isolation. http://agniveer.com/salvation-hinduism/
Now I have showed you the right path. Now go home and do not come back till you have given it full try.
May God bless you.
// I will ask again. Please help me find the 'right God', so I can denounce Islam. //
Leave Islam first.
Seek God sincerely in your heart/mind. You will find Him. Makes a sincere effort. Call out to Him Trutfhully.
God is Light. Therefore Light is God.
God is Truth. Therefore Truth is God.
God is Knowledge. Therefore Knowledge is God.
God is Goodness. Therefore Goodness is God.
Seek these out. Live by them. Live truthfully.
You will find God. God Himself will show you the right path.
But then be sincere about this and do not make it a lip service.
Dr. Sina never told you that Christianity is right religion. Just like me, all he said is leave Islam, and he gave you tons of reasons why to do so. He even gave you articles to read including the one that explains his views about God in detail. But you kept pestering about who the right God is? It is as if you want a one straight answer. So I gave you the one straight answer- Mother Goddess. But it looks like you are still complaining.
******
"Make your minds up please."
———
YOU are the one who needs to make up the mind. If you choose to stick with Islam however, you will continue to see it bashed here, with proofs for all to see.
It is the Iranian people that are a threat and that includes you, being one of them. It is your people trying to build the Nuclear bomb. Why are you distancing yourself from Iran now? Why don't you go to Israel and see what happens to your asylum application? Why don't you try and do business with Iran or try to buy oil from Iran? The 'West' will show you what time it is!
And as far as removing indigenous 'whites' from their country of birth and citizenship is concerned, you got as much chance as yourself coming out the closet and using your real name.
Forget the Government, the local indigenous population will have your backside on a plate. How dare a refugee immigrant who claimed asylum in the first place like you have the gall to threaten deportation of the local population. You need to go back to where you come from. We have no place for the immigrants like you in the West. GET OUT!
But I did not label you; i said that IF you acted in a certain negative way, THEN it would seem that ….
I like to compare the discussions on this website with a trial. A part of Islam and a part of the Muslims, and yes, Mohammed especially, these are on trial.
Not in a real court, but nevertheless they are under scrutiny, it is only an analogy. And why not; Ali Sina is under scrutiny by you and other Muslims, Christianity and Atheism are under heavy scrutiny as well. It is all for the good, mankind needs to be critical.
Ali Sina is the prosecutor, Muslims are the defenders. And let us let the judge and jury together decide. With these are meant the readers.
Is it really a good defense to accuse the prosecutor of being a hate-monger?! How credible is that?
Granted, you did give some examples of Ali Sina deceiving, according to you. But as to his motives, is n't it obvious that you say this because your views are so diametrically opposed to his? And he accuses many Muslims of the same deceiving attitude and he provides ample clues for it too.
So much of what you accuse others of applies as possibility for yourself and the Muslim side too!
As for bullshit; see; you are dismissive, disregarding. WHY is it bullshit?
"There is difference between TROLLS like Sina – and Academics. I acknowledge (already said it) West have produced fine academics. . . . when it comes to Islam.
But they are in a different category and class. . . as opposed to Spencer and Sina. There – academics standards are in practice. . . . here there are none. "
Nice that you admit as much. In Holland we have professor Hans Jansen, a verifiable Islam-expert to your hearts's content. I have read him and there is a huge area of agreement between him and Ali Sina.
This sort of standards are legitimate, but only to weigh, not to exclude. Leaving discussion only to the experts is bad idea. And WHY do experts exist in the first place? If not to inform the rest of mankind? So when they do just that and then eager, highly motivated listeners like Ali Sina and Robert Spencer soak this up, are the experts going to be jealous, guarding their secrets, and declaring everything others say invalid? The experts must think of the good of whole mankind, not just themselves being the best and only.
God did mean his message for all mankind, I think, not just for the experts. What Ali Sina and Robert Spencer and counterjihadists do is paying attention. Much better than ignoring God's message, which is what the majority of mankind and Muslims seem to be doing.
No, it is the task of the experts to inform and correct. Never to censor or discourage, In My Opinion.
And quite often, as now here, with the word Trolls you keep passing judgment over the character of writers and debaters. But that goes two ways. Muslims may also have less than noble motivations.
As I said; it seems to me that there are alternatives to Islam in politics and science, moreover that there are victims of Muslims because of Islam's influence and Ali Sina is in my opinion motivated to help those. and to let mankind progress.
No! I apologised for "putting words in your mouth" as you put it. Not for putting up an either or possibility which is MUCH WIDER.
Come on! We both push our BS or input. And why not?!
You are much much more disregarding, ignoring what Ali Sina is putting forward than I can possibly disregard, ignore what you write.
with me the cause is just that there is limited space to answer everything.
How is it evidence that I do not bother to read what you have to say when I say, or repeat:
"Because "this this" may be …… connected to the Islam-version of another Muslim."???
It is nothing of the sort. it is only evidence that I do not believe you and do not agree with you.
You can only ask me whether or not I read and whether or not I understood what you said and if I am willing to repeat it.
That is something Ali Sina can also ask of you! 10.000 time more! Because he writes 10.000 times more than me.
But you don't have and I don't have to. We can stick to our arguments. Failing to address them can cause people to think you use red herrings.
I’d send the white English Muslims to any Islamic country of their choice just as I would accept any apostate or non-Muslims from any Islamic country in any non-Muslim country.
Doesn’t the Quran teach that those who don’t convert to Islam must pay jizyah or leave the Islamic countries even if they are native? Aren’t the Hindus and Buddhists in Afghanistan and Pakistan abused and aren’t those of them who can afford leaving? Aren’t the Copts attacked and killed in Egypt? Aren’t they forced to leave even though they are the original owners of Egypt and Muslims are invaders? It is time to give Muslims a taste of their own medicine.
Iranian people are no threat to the world. It is the Islamic regime of Iran that is the threat. They are a threat because they are Muslim. The same goes for every Muslim in the world. This cancer must be removed.
This is where you always give your cards away Ali Sina.
You make the assumption that all Muslims come from a region which is different to the 'West' and are people of colour. Have you conveniently forgotten that Muslims are from every corner of the world including the 'West'. So exactly which country are you going to send back the 'white English Muslims from the UK? The Caucasian Americans from America, or the native Caucasian Europeans from Europe? Exactly which country are you going to deport the indigenous people of the 'West' who are Muslim? You can take your time on this one and keep scratching your head for an answer.
There isn't one you fool!
You being an immigrant coming from the public enemy number one Iran (so you say), have this illiterate notion that Muslims can only be from Arabia or Pakistan and must be deported back. No, you idiot, they come from everywhere and every walk of life and can be any race and from any country. Including where you currently hide, Canada.
If anyone that needs to be deported, then it has to be you, for your hate mongering, scare mongering and war mongering rhetoric. Your level of stupidity has to be a crime.
Why can't you lead by example and go back to the schithole you come from, Iran. Is it not your people that are currently the greatest threat to civilization wanting to build Nuclear weapons and have sanction after sanction on them?
And you thought this genius plan up all by yourself did you?
Go on then, do it!
"But then even the versions of non-Muslim Islam-experts should count. "
To the extent that NO ONE practices such views . . . after all – there is difference between reporting on what believer actually do – and airing your views about what their religion is.
There is difference between TROLLS like Sina – and Academics. I acknowledge (already said it) West have produced fine academics. . . . when it comes to Islam.
But they are in a different category and class. . . as opposed to Spencer and Sina. There – academics standards are in practice. . . . here there are none.
Any BS will do. This is a hate mongering site. Sina is NOT ONE BIT INTERESTED IN THE ACTUAL TRUTH.
– – –
"Either you admit that there are many "interpretations, versions, brands" of Islam. "
Doh.
This is why I said . . . you have an pre-set agenda that you air . . . It doesn't really matter what you are saying.
– – –
"Or you insist that according to you: "Islam" is and wants something, is not and forbids other things. "
Again last time around you apologised for such "tactics". . .
then you resort to them again. How poisonous!
– – –
"Because this "this" may have nothing to do with your version of Islam, but it may be connected with the version of Islam another Muslims cherished. "
More evidence that you don't bother to read what I have to say in return . . . you are simply interested in pushing you BS.
"Now, what Ali Sina, Robert Spencer, David Wood etc declare, show, argue by no means stands on it's own. They all endeavour to give sources about holy texts, Islamic schools of thoughts, Islamic actions, reports of independent newspapers. "
I have seen what Ali SIna does . . . he copied some material from Christians . . . when challenged . . . he DID NOT have a response other than lying and coming down to petty insults. I have him figured out pretty well.
So be careful who you throw your support after.
Sina – is a rabid hate monger and nothing more.
– – –
"Now with you having attitude I; there is no way that you can reject everything Ali Sina says, he writing so much, so diverse. This makes us suspect you really have attitude 2. "
Like I said . . . you come with an agenda and you will air it no matter what.
Most of what I have read come across is BS.
– – –
"Then you become predictable: You just oppose anything Ali Sina says on Islam, no matter what. "
huh? See – again it is slightly obvious you were going to label me in such a way . . . I told you that last time round.
Hence – it YOU who is predictable.
– – –
". They are all have fossilized brain and are murderous and hate mongers."
That is you with your numerous lies . . . I mean you copied Christian material . . . and posted it up as truth. When you challenged – you have gone into a shell. . . . that after throwing some petty accusation about. . . . none which were true.
"However – when you read OBVIOUSLY biased material and just rely on that . . . then you are BOUND to simply have that view.
Isn't the right thing to do . . . to study a subject as objectively as possible and making your own mind up?"
This is what you admirably say, Aminriadh. And I DO try to practice it, and even when I don't, my discussion partners among family, friends, and more will take me to task on it, forcing me to think and be as fair and logical as I can.
But later on in your post you do not acknowledge the consequence of such an attitude;
I juxtapose 2 attitudes of a debater:
I. Being openminded, study all sources, not just biased ones etc. What you said.
II. Start from a biased view and endorse that in all instances and reject all that contradicts, opposes it.
Now, what Ali Sina, Robert Spencer, David Wood etc declare, show, argue by no means stands on it's own. They all endeavour to give sources about holy texts, Islamic schools of thoughts, Islamic actions, reports of independent newspapers.
Now with you having attitude I; there is no way that you can reject everything Ali Sina says, he writing so much, so diverse. This makes us suspect you really have attitude 2.
But how credible then is it what you declare? If it is 99 % rejecting?
Then you become predictable: You just oppose anything Ali Sina says on Islam, no matter what.
"''''When have I claimed such thing . . . ? Why put words in my mouth like that – and move on making BS from them? "
Oh, OK, I apologize. But you can't have it both ways;
Either you admit that there are many "interpretations, versions, brands" of Islam. But then even the versions of non-Muslim Islam-experts should count. especially because they derive at their conclusions after study of Muslim Islam-experts.
Or you insist that according to you: "Islam" is and wants something, is not and forbids other things. It is even tricky then to say: "This" has nothing to do with Islam". Because this "this" may have nothing to do with your version of Islam, but it may be connected with the version of Islam another Muslims cherished.
Aminriadh, I emphasize again that I am in favor of a full democratic system of organising society. something bigger than myself. That is my WHY, reason to write, cause.
I do read you, try to understand you, and think a lot about what you say, but still that is not the same as believing you and agreeing with you. So I do not speak simply regardless of what you write.
I recognize:
– that there are many different brands of Islam as you call it. And I know many more prominent Muslims than only Anjem Choudhary. For instance I know about Zuhdi Jasser, who says he IS in favor of Democracy and who says that he is loyal to America and it's constitution, while still being Muslim. Very much the opposite of Anjem Choudhary.
– that perhaps indeed millions of Muslims believe democracy and Islam are compatible.
But for the moment I still see problems, contradictions between SOME Democratic organisation, values, laws, principles and SOME Islamic ones. And the contradiction of Islam with Democracy may lie
Either in what the originators of Islam really did mean.
Or in how a part of the Muslims interpret the finite, studyable holy texts. Especially how the Islamic experts, the schools of Shafi, Hanafi, Hanbali, Malike, of the Holy texts interpret them.
Ali Sina, Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller and many, many others still indicate many discrepancies between the 2 societal systems that I juxtapose; "Democracy" and Islam. Both in texts and in interpretation and practice of them by Muslims.
I mentioned Choudhary because he at least makes the situation simple; he wants to do away with democracy, some of essential it's values, laws, principles. And IF he were the representative of the vast majority of Muslims, it would be clear that Islam, or Muslims, represented a big threat, danger to the democratic system.
I did not say that he represented the vast majority of Muslims, but I think there are many Muslims who endorse distinctly anti-democratic values, laws, principles; like the Ayatollahs, the Wahhabi's, Taliban, Al Qaida.
And I also need much much clarification on separate issues from Muslims who claim that they think democracy is compatible with Islam;
My spearpoint: Deathpenalty for apostasy. Democratic law or principle says that an adult person is absolutely free to change religion.
Deathpenalty for apostasy is discussed much by Ali Sina and many colleagues like Ibn Kammuna and Robert Spencer. They have shown that in the Hadiths deathpenalty for apostasy was meant by originators of Islam.
Shafi, Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki all endorsed this penalty. And through PEW polls it was shown that it was endorsed by vast percentages of Muslims, in Islamic and Democratic nations.
Now do Muslims believing in compatibility of Democracy and Islam in the Democratic or in the apparently Islamic principle; freedom to choose religion or deathpenalty for apostasy?
That is the clarification many of us counterjihadists need from Muslims on this issue and likewise on other issues.
After that I desire that Muslims see themselves as part of a greater democratic family. And only then as part of a greater Islamic family. If they cannot be part of both. But this is for the distant future I suppose.
That will no peace as long Islam exist ! To destroy Islam we must destroy Makkah first because Makkah is the root of terrorist and evil. Everyday Muslim pray same direction to Makkah if Makkah destroy than they will know Allah is powerless to protect oneself ! So Muslim will not believe Islam again ! Than world will be peace……
And what about your belief system Raju. Let's start dissecting shall we.
Exactly what do you believe? Ali Sina states he was Muslim, is now Atheist, but believes in Jesus, Satan and no God!
About statistics it is said that
There are three types of lies:-
lies, damned lies and statistics
About Islam we can say that
There are three types of lies:-
Shia, Sunni and Islam.
Why we want to nuke them? Once they are back home, enjoying the freedom that Islam gives them, we have nothing to do with them. Only if they pose a threat to us we will act. And yes if they nuke us we should send them back to stone age.
The world must see that the concept of innocent Muslim and peaceful Muslims is a fallacy. All Muslims are like this man. They are all have fossilized brain and are murderous and hate mongers. As long as they are infected by the virus of Islam they pose a threat to others.
Well said Boiragi. Now run along and get your diaper changed. Leave the big stuff for the adults.
Now, that's a good kid. Chop chop!
get lost an go and put your head into the sand of the deserts and wait for us to nuke you out of your misery.
Scums!
"So all I can tell you is Don't be an Atheist! Go ahead and believe in a 'God'.
"
Your Sikh training coming out. . . Is that what the religion teaches now.
"Even Anjem Choudhary, clearly a self-confessed, highly Islam-knowledgeable person, declares that democracy does not work and should be abolished to be replaced by a political system based upon "divine laws" rather than on "manmade laws". "
SO you have heard of him. However that is ONE person out of how many?
How does that allude to what all Muslims think and feel?
See – this why reading one sided material is fallacious . . . there are millions of Muslims who do believe that Islam and democracy are compatible.
And why is it that you could only find . . . Choudhry?
– – – –
"Time and again Muslims like you, and even Quran-only-Muslims, like Edem, seem to claim some sort of monopoly of the only right interpretation of these finite holy texts. They seem to me to do that by saying: Islam is this or Islam is not that, Islam wants this or Islam wants not that. "
When have I claimed such thing . . . ? Why put words in my mouth like that – and move on making BS from them?
– – –
"In this context then it is at least reasonable to say that the Holy texts were very possibly meant in a totalitarian, thus anti-democratic way. "
How so? You reel off a spiel about "interpretation" – which was more or less BS – and then this deception?
Meaning you had this in mind . . . you were going to claim this NO MATTER what. Then led it up the garden path.
– – – –
"I so agree with Ali Sina. At the vary least when he is advocating against the version of Islam presented by Anjem Choudhary. "
According to Sina – such interpretation are the only correct version. There's a surprise. A bit different from what you are claiming.
– – –
"With that version of Islam there would be no doubt anymore. Otherwise constitutions of Democratic nations become suicide pacts. And politicians like Hitler can be voted in and then replace democratic nations (and we can define these quite clearly if you wish) with totalitarian ones. "
Again . . . i refer you to your BS about "interpretations" then your attempt at keep shoving this at me repeatedly . . .
you don't bother to listen at what I say . . . you have you little agenda – you repeatedly go back to it.
– – –
"This paradox is already known and discussed AminRiadh. It is the job of Muslims to clarify what the intentions of their versions of Islam are according to them. On the subject of intent for a Democratic or a Islamic totalitarian nation. "
When you only listen – deliberately to this kind of material – what do you expect to find?
– – –
"Now that so much clues, like the presence of Anjem Choudary's, Ayatollahs, Saudi Wahhabits, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, exist that what the originators of Islam, back in the 7th century, really meant. "
He he . . . it came out didn't it. That you deliberately – as Sina does – brand this Islam about. And you will continue to do so.
No matter what anyone else says and does.
That is DISHONEST. . . DECEPTIVE of you.
– – –
You had you little agenda . . . and you air it – irrespective of what I say.
"Nonie Darwish, Robert Spencer, Ali Sina and many others pointed out how Shariah laws contradicted in part parts of those democratic laws, values and principles. That is WHY I oppose Islam, but only parts of it and parts of Muslims. "
You bleat when I point out why I think something from you is fallacious . . . however.
However – when you read OBVIOUSLY biased material and just rely on that . . . then you are BOUND to simply have that view.
Isn't the right thing to do . . . to study a subject as objectively as possible and making your own mind up?
– – –
What is the "Islamic Political system". . . do elaborate.
– – – –
"And there is much hate-mongering against democratic nations going on too, I might add. Both hate-mongerings then are in favor of one system and directed against the other, it seems to me. "
Such hate mongering is wrong. Full stop.
– – –
"But I distinguish strongly between hate-mongering and violence. As I said hurting feelings should be allowed, within borders, but hurting bodies should be punishable by law. "
You are confusing the issue . . . lets say someone comes here and soaks up all the anti-Muslim hate . . . then goes and stabs a person?
This is why hate speech leading to violence is wrong. How do you think brain washing works.
– – –
= = = = = =
"Ali Sina does not stand on his own. He says many things. When you try to be objective and constructive it seems unavoidable to me that you at least sometimes can acknowledge or validate something that he is saying. Same the other way back. "
Ha! He is a lying . . . so and so. I handed his ass on an issue. Did he accept it?
No . . . he started to spout lies and hate all over the place.
He has copied nonsense from Christian about the Quran – when challenged . . . he resorts to lying and insulting.
– – – –
"But if you NEVER EVER acknowledge or validate anything he says, that would mean that you act out of prejudice and destructive intent, intent to only, merely shut him up. But not to let mankind, through our meaningful verbal conflict, progress. "
"Why is that I have to validate him" . . . again persuasion through fallacious means.
"that would mean that you act out of prejudice and destructive intent, intent to only, merely shut him up."
No it doesn't . . . else how so?
What you here is simply ridiculous . . . and makes no sense.
You mean the Golden Rule which you guys have made up from mythology and are promoting through Christianity via Robert Spencer and claiming patented rights via Atheism and cultist Swami Guru Ali Sina Nanak Dev?
No thanks!
I'll hedge by bets thank you very much.
So now you want Muslims to become Hindus then knowTheEnemy?
Your original stance was just leave Islam and choose what you want, but when push comes to shove and we pressure you that much more, just like Guru Ali Sina Nanak, who opted for Jesus when he was recently pushed, you nominate your Hindu God Durga!
You guys are definitely not the brightest of sparks, but at least you prove time and time again that you have agendas.
So which is it going to be? Christianity or Hinduism for the Muslims to convert to?
You say Hinduism.
Your teacher says Christianity.
Make your minds up please.
The Sunni version is the true version. The Shiite version is a lie. The Ahmadiyah is also a lie. I was a Shiite twelver. Now that I know Islam better I realize the Sunni Islam is the correct Islam. Of course Islam is a lie.
I thought a lot about your response. Yes, maybe I was begging the question. Good links you gave me.
I come from something positive; I think; the society envisioned by great thinkers from the enlightenment and later on. My best possible ideal society is about: Elections, Separation of church and state, constitutional state, autonomy of the individual, freedom of speech.
Nonie Darwish, Robert Spencer, Ali Sina and many others pointed out how Shariah laws contradicted in part parts of those democratic laws, values and principles. That is WHY I oppose Islam, but only parts of it and parts of Muslims.
To me the Democratic system is a competitor to the Islamic political system/ ideology.
Ali Sina is clearly an ally for people like me and his hate-mongering is against a powerful competitor of my favorite political system. The Islamic political system, at least in part, and at least among many of it;'s followers is against parts of my beloved system and against some of my beloved allies.
And there is much hate-mongering against democratic nations going on too, I might add. Both hate-mongerings then are in favor of one system and directed against the other, it seems to me.
But I distinguish strongly between hate-mongering and violence. As I said hurting feelings should be allowed, within borders, but hurting bodies should be punishable by law.
Hurting feelings in a strict non-violent way can have benefits. It stings accused and insulted persons into passionate reactions; thinking, talking, adapting, observing etc. and it warns others for the accused. and I think it is good for progress.
and perhaps you rely on hurting feelings too, because you can be very asinine, scathing, downright insulting in your responses. And remember to ask: who decides what is insulting? The insulter or the insulted?
Ali Sina does not stand on his own. He says many things. When you try to be objective and constructive it seems unavoidable to me that you at least sometimes can acknowledge or validate something that he is saying. Same the other way back.
But if you NEVER EVER acknowledge or validate anything he says, that would mean that you act out of prejudice and destructive intent, intent to only, merely shut him up. But not to let mankind, through our meaningful verbal conflict, progress.
I endeavour to point the big difference between killing and hurting bodies, so … violence and hurting only FEELINGS, non-violent.
And then I like to point out the borders: Inciting to violence should also be punishable by law.
And here the hurting of feelings is on the internet and that is OK, and it can also be done on TV and in Newspapers-magazines and perhaps at conferences. From all these media and meetings a person can withdraw.
I am against harassment with hurting feelings on the streets or the workplace or school etc.
I endorse what you say about polite, respectful behavior or speech has no avail with beasts.
But the one alternative to polite, respectful behavior, is violence, and the other is insulting on internet, tv, in newspapers and such. , but non-violent.
This second response has advantages, because it stings the accused and the insulted into passionate response, and thinking. And it warns other people against the accused.
The RIGHT God is the Mother Goddess. Here is her picture-
Mother Goddess
And the right God is???????????????????????
Surely you must have dreamt up some more confusion since 2007.
I will ask again. Please help me find the 'right God', so I can denounce Islam.
But you're still here Raja Babu?
But he subscribes to Atheism, does he not? So according to Ali Sina's logic, he will enter heaven through the Christian route as he is voting for Jesus in his last few posts, even though he claims to be Atheist not believing in any God or afterlife!
There must be a gifted technique to this type of logic. I wonder if he will ever hold workshops and teach the public these techniques or at least write a book on how he comes up with his positions?
You are still craftily dodging my Question in the later part of the staement…WHY WOULD ANYBODY IN HIS RIGHT SENSES, ACCEPT ANY VERSION TO BE TRUE JUST AS YOU ARE DOING WITH SUNNI VERSION AND IGNORING THE AHMADIYYA VERSION AND THE SHIA VERSIONS, WHAT IS YOUR JUSTIFICATION FOR PREFERRING SUNNI SOURCES????Need you remember that the influence on hadith narrations was by tyrant rulers, who tried to justify their injustice by narrating these hadith in the prophet's name through his loved ones. Because he even warned that nothing of His words other than the Quran should be written downPlease sina, answer the question i posted in caps above, since you always have a logical reason to everthing.
It is normal for people to attribute miracles to their prophet and lie to make him look great. So one has to take all that with large lump of salt. However, no one lies to attribute evil qualities to his prophet. So those stories cannot be false. All people do good things, even Hitler. But a prophet of God cannot be as evil as what Muhammad was.
You seem to be lost in extremes right? You seem to ignore that these people also recorded a lot of good things about the prophet! Why would you accept any of both sides? on what grounds? you also seem to have a good way of reaching which of these hadith are true, its quite funny. Splitting of moon, stoning monkeys, very funny stories! rated in thier names? could it not be that the narrations were done in the names of these Beloved people just to 'improve' the credibility and force the people to believe in them. It a known fact that in information oral information Transfer, a lot is changed, lost, forgotten, and re-interpreted! If not how come you have two entirely different view of who the prophet was considering shia versions and collections in contrast with Sunni versions, Not to even mention the Ahmdiyya's who also have sayings. All these different contradictory sayings by the same people? Do they have different mouths, how come all of these sects have an almost entirely different view of who the prophet is? WHY WOULD ANYBODY IN HIS RIGHT SENSES, ACCEPT ANY VERSION TO BE TRUE JUST AS YOU ARE DOING WITH SUNNI VERSION AND IGNORING THE AHMADIYYA VERSION AND THE SHIA VERSIONS, WHAT IS YOUR JUSTIFICATION FOR PREFERRING SUNNI SOURCES????My point was how do you now that these people actually narated the stories? Could it not be also that it was nar
And give me one reason why should we not accept the narrations of the close pals of the Prophet? They loved him. They were ready to die for him. Why would they fabricate lies to portray him as a criminal?
If all the palls of the Prophet were lying who wrote the real story of his life and what happened to that “true” version? You just don’t want to admit that your prophet was a criminal.
Rather than learning hate . . . why don't you objectively learn about Islam – and make your own mind up.
– – –
"So my question is this- Does Islam permit (or gives the freedom to) NOT follow the Sunnah of prophet?? "
Yes. Sunnah – are simply best practices. What is obligatory is not referred as Sunnah.
Many don't even bother with the basic obligations.
In a different post, you said "If you choose to follow Islam – then it is obvious you do things according to what the religion asks. Else what is the point of following something?"
So my question is this- Does Islam permit (or gives the freedom to) NOT follow the Sunnah of prophet??
Books of hadith and Sunni jurisprudence are full of narrations and laws against women, insulting them and looking down upon them:
"The intelligence and the religion of women are incomplete." "If a monkey, a black dog, or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified." "To find a good woman among women is similar to finding a white crow among a hundred crows." "The marriage commitment is a kind of slavery for women." "If anybody has been required to prostrate before others beside God, the woman should prostrate before her husband." "I have been shown the dwellers of hell; the majority of them were women." "If the body of the husband is covered with pus and his wife licks it with her tongue, she still will not be able to pay her debt to him."
Baseless hadiths
These are only a few examples from the most popular satanic books, Bukhary and Muslim, which in many cases are preferred over Quran. The six "authentic" books (Bukhary, Muslim, Ibn Hanbal, Tirmizy, Ibn Majah, and Nesaiy) are full of many fabricated hadiths against women. Those who accepted the narrations reported by the professional liars of Amawy and Abbasy as their religious source, have unfortunately created a terrible male oppression of females for centuries. According to the Quran, those who are not content with Quran and fabricate lies and attribute them to the prophet, are the enemy of the prophet (6:112-116). Those who uphold baseless hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain, have incurred a shameful retribution (31:6).
According to God's law, women have the same rights as men (2:228). Women can divorce their husbands (2:230, 233, 228; 4:35). Women cannot remarry until they have three menstruation but men have no such obligation and this is the only difference (2:228). On the other hand, The Arabs who are described as "the worst disbelievers" by the Quran (9:97), fabricated many religious laws parallel to their despicable attitude towards women. According to the Sunni religion, the woman has no right of divorce . The husband can divorce his wife whenever he wants, but a woman cannot divorce her husband, even if she hates him.
Even after i Quote so many Quranic verses, you still insist it resonates with the Quran? show me! where are the verses?You are so gullible to accept anything penned down as long as the name of the person who was said to have narrated it was a close pal of the prophet!You claim you think, but when it comes to analyzing the Hadith your thinking is pathetic. You think the people who are trying to use the narrations of the Hadith for their selfish agendas would use unfamiliar names? They sure will use the names of people they know respected the prophet.
And why are we to believe these are lies? They were reported by very devout followers of Muhammad, including his wife. There is no reason to disregard them as lies specially when they resonate with what the Quran says in regards to women.
Books of hadith and Sunni jurisprudence are full of narrations and laws against women, insulting them and looking down upon them:
"The intelligence and the religion of women are incomplete." "If a monkey, a black dog, or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified." "To find a good woman among women is similar to finding a white crow among a hundred crows." "The marriage commitment is a kind of slavery for women." "If anybody has been required to prostrate before others beside God, the woman should prostrate before her husband." "I have been shown the dwellers of hell; the majority of them were women." "If the body of the husband is covered with pus and his wife licks it with her tongue, she still will not be able to pay her debt to him."
Baseless hadiths
These are only a few examples from the most popular satanic books, Bukhary and Muslim, which in many cases are preferred over Quran. The six "authentic" books (Bukhary, Muslim, Ibn Hanbal, Tirmizy, Ibn Majah, and Nesaiy) are full of many fabricated hadiths against women. Those who accepted the narrations reported by the professional liars of Amawy and Abbasy as their religious source, have unfortunately created a terrible male oppression of females for centuries. According to the Quran, those who are not content with Quran and fabricate lies and attribute them to the prophet, are the enemy of the prophet (6:112-116). Those who uphold baseless hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain, have incurred a shameful retribution (31:6).
According to God's law, women have the same rights as men (2:228). Women can divorce their husbands (2:230, 233, 228; 4:35). Women cannot remarry until they have three menstruation but men have no such obligation and this is the only difference (2:228). On the other hand, The Arabs who are described as "the worst disbelievers" by the Quran (9:97), fabricated many religious laws parallel to their despicable attitude towards women. According to the Sunni religion, the woman has no right of divorce . The husband can divorce his wife whenever he wants, but a woman cannot divorce her husband, even if she hates him.
"So you say most of these translators have got it wrong."
incredible lying . . . the only one I think is wrong is Sher Ali.
– – –
" But those who in your opinion got it right still don’t give any idea of an expanding universe."
The verse may or may not mean that – there are 3 main translations – all fit.
– – –
" You choose to think that way but that is not how they sound in English. "
No – you are deliberately saying the opposite.
– – –
"The question is then how can a book that claims to be clear, easy to understand, explained in detail and with no doubt in it give rise to so many confusing translations? "
Here is another petty attempt at deception. Quran is an Arabic book – it quiet easy to understand in that language. . .
Arabic and English are 2 very different languages. This is not the case with languages that closer – Urdu for example.
– – –
"Again I repeat, let us assume you are right and all these translators of the Quran are wrong."
Again – Why repeat the lie . . . I have NEVER claimed that all these translators are wrong . . . I have simply explained the verse. You are forcing this on . . . and you know it is wrong.
– – –
"Why you never address any of the errors of the Quran that I mentioned? I repeated them several times but you act as if you never heard it."
Such as . . . I am willing to address all. And I have said so . . . but these comments aren't the place.
You lose track . . . the space gets smaller. Forums are much better.
Willing to answer all – email – or install a forum.
I even suggested bbPress. Easiest.
Another lie – I did not:
" but you act as if you never heard it."
– – –
"Why? Because you think you can twist the meaning of one word in this verse but you can’t do the same in other verses. "
Again . . . you repeat this lie – in face of evidence . . . I did not TWIST any meaning . . . else where the "twisting"
You can refer to all classical dictionaries. . . and what an active participle is in Arabic.
– – –
"One error is enough to prove the Quran is not from God."
You HAVE NOT proven any . . . .
"So don’t try to fabricate miracles for me."
I caught you out . . . now you are bleating. Lie after lie.
– – –
"Answer the questions regarding hundreds of very stupid an banal errors in the Quran. ""
What was the question . . . I can deal with verse at a time.
Bring it on. Twice I have posted my email address. Third time:
[email protected]
Obviously I cannot answer "hundred" at once. . . . ask – one by one.
I'll EVEN let you choose!!!
So you say most of these translators have got it wrong. But those who in your opinion got it right still don’t give any idea of an expanding universe. You choose to think that way but that is not how they sound in English. The question is then how can a book that claims to be clear, easy to understand, explained in detail and with no doubt in it give rise to so many confusing translations?
Again I repeat, let us assume you are right and all these translators of the Quran are wrong. Why you never address any of the errors of the Quran that I mentioned? I repeated them several times but you act as if you never heard it. There is no comment from you. Why? Because you think you can twist the meaning of one word in this verse but you can’t do the same in other verses.
One error is enough to prove the Quran is not from God. So don’t try to fabricate miracles for me. Answer the questions regarding hundreds of very stupid an banal errors in the Quran.
Expected answer . . . surely you could have done better? Nah . . . doubt it.
"Which Muslim out of those 1.5 billion doesn't follow the Sunnah of the 'prophet' Muhammad??? "
Plenty – if you even had inkling of knowledge about Islam . . . you would know that this where different ways of practice arose within Muslims.
Not all Muslims believe or practice the same way. . . or to the same degree.
– – –
Hasn't Sina ever advised you read up on Logical Fallacies?
It is simple question of Arabic.
وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
This verse isn't a complicated sentence to understand. Translation problem lies in Musayoon – as you there isn't a direct grammatical element in English – you end up translating it in a round about way. That is why you get lots of different translation. But even then it is not difficult to convey the sense of meanings.
bi-aeedin is actually more difficult to translate. Hence it too has various translations.
– – – –
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Is more or less correct – he chose to translate bi-aeedin as "with might". Hadith reference from Ibn Abbas.
– – –
Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
This isn't a good translation – he conveys the meanings badly.
– – –
Hilali-Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Correct
– – –
Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Here: We raised – comes from Classical Tafsir – Assumed implicit verb in front of Sam'a. I don't why he said "things"
– – –
Sher Ali
And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.
Wrong
– – –
Arberry
And heaven — We built it with might, and We extend it wide.
Correct!
– – –
Palmer
And the heaven – we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!
Correct – round about way of saying to expand something.
– – – –
And the Heaven – with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse;
Correct
– – –
"Not one of them translated this verse they you have. Will you explain how could all of them get it wrong?"
All of them didn't get it wrong. . . just used different words – i have explained the sentence structure more. And the basic Arabic. What an active participle in Arabic is.
– – –
"Forget about this verse. Let us agree that all the translators of the Quran were wrong and you got it right. "
You are the one who brought it up. Copied more or less from Christian sites. Its been on the net for years. They weren't wrong – and I am not the only one correct.
– – –
"There are hundred so other errors in the Quran. One is enough to prove this book is not from God. "
You haven't proven a SINGLE ONE! You copied this BS from others – without verifying it.
If you got ONE wrong – possibility is others are wrong too. Which I have NO DOUBT you fleeced from others. . . and are similar whole load of . . . bollocks
Really? Aren’t you embarrassed to lie so patently?
Here is how all the major translators of the Quran translated the verse 51:47
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Hilali-Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Sher Ali
And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.
Arberry
And heaven — We built it with might, and We extend it wide.
Palmer
And the heaven – we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!
Rodwell
And the Heaven – with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse;
Sale
We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent:
Not one of them has translated this verse the way you have. Will you explain how could all of them get it wrong?
Forget about this verse. Let us agree that all the translators of the Quran were wrong and you got it right. There are hundred so other errors in the Quran. One is enough to prove this book is not from God.
"Here is another example- "
Yet your first example was wrong . . . rather than answering on the issue . . . you have resorted to this.
– – –
This example is also what we don't call "prayer".
"The Quran is full of absurdities and you can't use your reason when reason and the Quran contradict. At the same time you want to be called a rational person. You can't be both. You either follow the revelation or follow your reason. This is a simple concept and you don't even understand this. "
I have just dealt with your hocus pocus of lie . . . which you copied from the Christians – where was your rationality then?
I'll tell you where it was . . . you are so deep in hate that – anything anti-Muslim/Islam you will accept as truth. . . without questioning it.
I have clearly proven you wrong . . . on one such "absurdity" did you have a response?
Other than a stock phraseology of a common net troll. . .
– – –
If I have twisted a meaning – why didn't you highlight it?
– – –
[[[ "This is not so. Muhammad is simply saying that the universe is vast and not that it is expanding. This verse reads:
وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
"]]]
However the word Mu'sayoon is active participle of form IV and plural. It does NOT refer to the Earth . . . which is already mentioned as a singular.
Arabic active participles are either adjectives. Or
“the person/thing that [does something]”
Example:
كاتب (kaatib) writing/writer
– – –
Hence the word "Mu'sayoon" means – expander – someone who expands something.
The sentence reads as:
والسماء And the sky
بنيناها We constructed it
بأيد (bi-aidin) simply refers back that Allah made the earth – emphasis personal responsibility.
وإنا And We are
لموسعون surely (Lam – emphatic particle) the ones expanding it.
– – –
That Christian concoction is completely wrong – as you have no Arabic skills – and loose morals when it comes to Islam – you swallowed the bullshit.
Where is that "rationality" bullshit?
Where is that "evidence" baloney.
– – – –
I repeated it for you.
Can a person, who has been Muslim up until now, quit his/her religion without fearing ummah's wrath??
Yes.
= = =
Where is your evidence and bullshit gone now . . . which rationality is this?
– – – –
"Let us assume you can twist the meaning of one word and claim Muhammad said the universe is expanding, which of course he didn’t."
Check . . . with anyone who know his onions.
I am 100% right in what I said.
The verse doesn't say . . . universe is expanding.
It says God is the one expanding it.
To be exact.
– – –
Like I said – any day.
[email protected]
Here is hardly the place for the rest.
But in face of clear evidence if you are going to behave like this . . .
"If you misunderstand one verse and think you can interpret it in another way why not think of hundreds of other cases where the author of the Qruan proves his utter ignorance? "
huh? Here is CLEAR PROOF – That you are one deceiving, hypocritical and hate-mongering individual.
Go and check . . . it isn't me – who is twisting anything.
It is YOU.
I have clearly defeated you in this matter.
– – –
Simple.
– – –
If I have as you claim . . . twisted a meaning.
Then show me . . .
– – –
This is why you are so afraid of getting into such debate. . . where you have to do a bit more than a little ranting and raving.
– – –
Pah!
"then an intelligent person should at least acknowledge that and validate the fears of those who LOVE democracy and freedom. "
Why should anyone has to validate . . . some ones fears? In the above all you are saying is that an intelligent person inevitable will have agree with what you are saying.
That is a a closed question . . . and logically fallacious. Persuasion by illogical means. . . I don't think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
– – –
" I would like to ask you what your ideal society would look like?"
Peaceful. Fair. Just. Moral. . .
– – –
"And among the # 200 nations of the world you prefer and which ones you reject."
All societies have specific ups and downs. I like China (has got a lot right) – Britain (institutions – sense of fair play). Africa – (for the challenge). Middle East (Religion)
There is no one simple answer. As there is no perfect match.
– – – –
"For me now, I can clearly define true democratic nations and true totalitarian ones, and those in between (thanks to Freedom House (yes, CIA)). And I for one prefer ALL Democratic Nations over ANY totalitarian one. If you can do the same, then in that context criticize America and Israel all you want, as far as I am concerned. "
West gets a lot right and a lot wrong . . . A lot wrong mostly has to do with morality.
Good things . . . social justice, institutions, education, welfare, less corruption.
– – –
= = =
Look Sina to me is a deceptive hate-monger. Why ask:
"And if you do not acknowledge or validate anything of what Ali sina is saying"
uhu. . .but, of course you would say that . . . that is to be expected.
Take it or leave it.
Anyway you thought it fit to comment after two days — that itself goes to show how significant that message must have been
Look, it is complicated, OK? But take the attitude towards the West and America in particular, AminRiadh.
When people criticize the American way of life and government, that is OK. But when people openly support enemies of the USA that are clearly totalitarian (and we can define those if you want, if you insist on giving proof and logic for that qualification), then an intelligent person should at least acknowledge that and validate the fears of those who LOVE democracy and freedom.
And if you do not acknowledge or validate anything of what Ali sina is saying, then I would like to ask you what your ideal society would look like? And among the # 200 nations of the world you prefer and which ones you reject. Any comments on that?
For me now, I can clearly define true democratic nations and true totalitarian ones, and those in between (thanks to Freedom House (yes, CIA)). And I for one prefer ALL Democratic Nations over ANY totalitarian one. If you can do the same, then in that context criticize America and Israel all you want, as far as I am concerned.
And please, do not respond only to the inevitable weak points in my post, with your usual contempt, but also honestly on ALL the vexed questions I wrestle with, including the tough ones.
"That is simply your interpretation – which has nothing to do with Islam."
Even Anjem Choudhary, clearly a self-confessed, highly Islam-knowledgeable person, declares that democracy does not work and should be abolished to be replaced by a political system based upon "divine laws" rather than on "manmade laws".
First of all, the Islamic holy texts are finite, studyable, debatable. How were they precisely meant by the person(s?) who wrote them?! In the 7th century? When there existed no democratic nations as we know them now?
Time and again Muslims like you, and even Quran-only-Muslims, like Edem, seem to claim some sort of monopoly of the only right interpretation of these finite holy texts. They seem to me to do that by saying: Islam is this or Islam is not that, Islam wants this or Islam wants not that.
But there are many interpretations and practices of these texts, as my examples of Anjem Choudhary and Edem show. And even Ali Sina admittedly has only his own interpretation.
In this context then it is at least reasonable to say that the Holy texts were very possibly meant in a totalitarian, thus anti-democratic way.
Islam was later (in the Enlightenment period) improved upon, according to many, by something else, something more democratic, free, culminating in societies distinctly different from societies governed by Shariah Law.
And the arguments here are about "Intolerence versus Intolerance". John Locke already wrote about that in regards to Catholics in England, who in the 17the century were still primarily loyal to the Pope. And thus not to the English people, government and constitution.
I so agree with Ali Sina. At the vary least when he is advocating against the version of Islam presented by Anjem Choudhary.
With that version of Islam there would be no doubt anymore. Otherwise constitutions of Democratic nations become suicide pacts. And politicians like Hitler can be voted in and then replace democratic nations (and we can define these quite clearly if you wish) with totalitarian ones.
This paradox is already known and discussed AminRiadh. It is the job of Muslims to clarify what the intentions of their versions of Islam are according to them. On the subject of intent for a Democratic or a Islamic totalitarian nation.
At least a substantial part of the Muslims should by now (2012) provide unambiguous clarity about this issue. Now that so much clues, like the presence of Anjem Choudary's, Ayatollahs, Saudi Wahhabits, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, exist that what the originators of Islam, back in the 7th century, really meant. And how vast groups of Muslim scholars, and ordinary Muslims interpret their holy texts.
“Please help me find that ‘right God’ so I can denounce Islam.”
See this for the answer. http://alisina.org/what-is-god/
At least you are honest knowTheEnemy in your blatant hatred of Islam.
So, if Mohammad's God was wrong, exactly which one is the 'right God' then clever clogs?
Please help me find that 'right God' so I can denounce Islam.
The ball is in your court now.
Yep, all the above ayats of the Quran are True.
Can you now prove to us they are absurdities and please bring your evidence and witnesses.
We await.
"or quit the religion and join another."
Yes . . . but this is a very different proposition. Why confuse 2 different issues?
———-
Can a person, who has been Muslim up until now, quit his/her religion without fearing ummah's wrath??
"In order to pray to Allah . . . Muslims don't involve Prophet Muhammad"
———–
Here is another example-
O Allah, I seek forgiveness for every sin, I committed, about which, of course, You know inside and out, from the beginning to the end of my life, whether committed deliberately or intentionally, few or many, abstruse or manifest, old or new, secretly carried out or openly done; and for whatever wrong I have done I turn repentant unto You and beseech You to bless Muhammad and the children of Muhammad and forgive all my unjust acts I did to wrong the people (because they have rights which I have to recognize and fulfill) but You have full authority to forgive those wrongdoings whenever and howsoever You wish, O the most merciful.
Don’t deceive yourself. The Quran is full of nonsense and absurdities. If you misunderstand one verse and think you can interpret it in another way why not think of hundreds of other cases where the author of the Qruan proves his utter ignorance?
Are sperms generated in the backbone?
Does the sun sets in a muddy spring?
Are stars missiles that God throws at jinns who try to eavesdrop?
Is the heaven divided in seven layers?
Is the earth divided in seven layers?
Are the stars in the lower heaven?
Are mountains acting as pegs, so when we walk on earth is does not shake with us?
Does science agree that woman was created from the rib of man?
Is the universe created in six days or six periods of time?
Was the earth created before the sun and the skies?
Is the earth stretched like a bed?
All these and many more absurdities like these prove Islam is a lie. Let us assume you can twist the meaning of one word and claim Muhammad said the universe is expanding, which of course he didn’t. How can you answer other asininities in the Quran?
“Muslims living in Western countries DO NOT CHALLENGE the constitution or sovereignty. Else they would have been kicked out.”
Islam challenges the constitution and sovereignty of non-Muslim countries and many Muslims do that openly in their demonstrations.
"No country will allow an ideology to challenge its constitution and sovereignty. "
Muslims living in Western countries DO NOT CHALLENGE the constitution or sovereignty. Else they would have been kicked out. But cede to the secular authority.
– – –
" The only thing left is to highlight the political and subversive nature of Islam. This is not very difficult. Muhammad said al Islamo deenum wa dawlah. Islam is religion and government. So if it is a government we can ban it."
If this was the case then . . . the West would put the foot down. More or less it isn't.
– – –
"Opinions are changing fast. People are awakening. "
For Wests own sake – I hope they don't swing to your thinking – else God help us all.
Unlike you – I would prefer to see the world to live in peace and harmony.
And not tempt WW3.
"The separation you are talking about is not called autonomy. It is called subjugation. Read again the Quran 9:29. Non Muslims are to be subdued and should pay jizyah will willing submission and feeling humiliated."
That is simply your interpretation – which has nothing to do with Islam. The Suahaba and the latter scholars laid down such rules. Jews and Christians were to be given autonomy to practice their own religion. Preferred method wasn't "integration" but segregation – in religious matters. Over the years practice of it has been relatively different.
After complain from some Christians – Caliph Umar – changed the word Jiziyah to Sadaqah.
– – –
"If they come to power in the West they will eliminate our concept of freedom. Therefor we should send them home now before it is too late. "
A big "If" – this is practically impossible . . . the only way is if such a large majority of Western society becomes Muslim. Likely? No.
– – –
"Taking the voting right of Muslims is allowed by commonsense and the instinct of self protection,"
This is simply – your ranting. Not in practice.
" It is allowed by the constitutions of democratic nations."
Hence irrevocably changing Western societies forever. . . the "freedom" label will go.
– – –
" Since Islam is not just a religion but a subversive political movement that aims to overthrow our democracy and system of government, it is not just allowed but imperative to declare it illegal. "
Again simply your thoughts as a hate monger of particularly vicious nature.
you know all beasts including dogs, pigs, assess are Muslims of Allah SWT, not of Islamists. Man rebels and become infidel. One thing is to revert/convert to Islam, but main thing is to maintain it.
Forgot to add. . . root of Mu'sayoon is Wa Sa 'A
It is in the Arabic verb form IV.
It means widening, expanding, enlargement.
Hans Wehr – Pg 1068
– – –
Sahih International
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Muhsin Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Dr. Ghali
And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide.
" Islam is based on lies. "
No – you are based on lies . . . you read answering-islam – big deal. The thing is pasting there claims as the truth . . . that is deceptive of you.
Where did this validity go? Did you bother checking up to see whether their claims were true or not.
No – its againt Islam – so you took it.
This is also evident – in your support for this fallacious video:
http://alisina.org/muhammads-flat-earth/
= = =
[[[ "This is not so. Muhammad is simply saying that the universe is vast and not that it is expanding. This verse reads:
وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
"]]]
However the word Mu'sayoon is active participle of form IV and plural. It does NOT refer to the Earth . . . which is already mentioned as a singular.
Arabic active participles are either adjectives. Or
“the person/thing that [does something]”
Example:
كاتب (kaatib) writing/writer
– – –
Hence the word "Mu'sayoon" means – expander – someone who expands something.
The sentence reads as:
والسماء And the sky
بنيناها We constructed it
بأيد (bi-aidin) simply refers back that Allah made the earth – emphasis personal responsibility.
وإنا And We are
لموسعون surely (Lam – emphatic particle) the ones expanding it.
– – –
That Christian concoction is completely wrong – as you have no Arabic skills – and loose morals when it comes to Islam – you swallowed the bullshit.
Where is that "rationality" bullshit?
Where is that "evidence" baloney.
– – – –
Take this to anyone with decent expertise in Arabic – He/She will verify this.
I highly doubt you will.
Know about this Muslimah. She embraced Islam why?
http://www.awomensclub.com/queenie-padilla-embrac…
"Allah was Muhammad's own alter ego."
Blah Blah Blah – Yes i have read your book.
– – –
"Can a person believe in God and worship him through another prophet or directly without accepting Muhammad? "
Yes . . . but what status it has . . i don't know.
But to be a Muslim – one does have to believe in Prophet Muhammad as the last of the Messengers.
– – –
"That is because Muhammad presented himself as the inseparable partner of God."
Where?
– – –
" He never said this directly because people would have left him but he designed his religion in such a way that he is indispensable to worshiping God. "
Right . . . so when you know you are fiddling with the truth . . . then you spout bullshit. Leaving your pet theory aside . . .
"he designed his religion in such a way that he is indispensable to worshiping God"
Prove this.
– – –
"Believe in one god is baloney. "
"Belief" . . . believe is the verb.
– – –
"Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians believed in one god."
Christians believing in one God? That is not true. Jews according to Islam – should have ceded to Jesus Christ. Zoroastrians are even older.
– – –
As per usual – anything but the truth. So why the baloney about "rationality". Does it include deliberate lies?
You are mistaken. This law is already in place in virtually all free countries. No country will allow an ideology to challenge its constitution and sovereignty. The only thing left is to highlight the political and subversive nature of Islam. This is not very difficult. Muhammad said al Islamo deenum wa dawlah. Islam is religion and government. So if it is a government we can ban it.
Opinions are changing fast. People are awakening.
"Same thing with the robot. It does things according to what the instructions require. "
Are you deliberately being obtuse? A "robot" has no will. . . humans do . . . hence not robot. Also not all Muslims agree on one thing – neither do they practice to the same degree.
– – –
"To do things against a society is different from innovating new things into society, or modifying existing ones. When we innovate or modify, we are not going 'against' society; we are only helping make it better. "
On collective agreement of a society . . . within set parameters only. These things society already allows. . . We are talking about laws which if you break. .. you will be hauled in front of magistrate. Silly me! For assuming you would get there.
– – –
"then I should be able to either include this practice into the religion"
No you won't – other Sikhs won't allow this.
– – –
"or quit the religion and join another."
Yes . . . but this is a very different proposition. Why confuse 2 different issues?
– – –
" If I can do either of these without fear of punishment (in this world or afterwards), only then am I NOT a robot. "
huh? how does FEAR make you a robot? See . . . you do come out with some really ridiculous things.
If someone else is forcing you . . . then it is beyond you're control . . . how does that mean . .. you are a robot?
No continues to practice what they don't believe in. This is why Islam (or anything else) requires that you believe in your heart what you say with your tongue. Else you are NOT a Muslim.
– – –
The whole point from the start was fallacious.
“If you choose to follow Islam – then it is obvious you do things according to what the religion asks. Else what is the point of following something?”
So how then can you call yourself a rational person?
Islam requires circumcision. Is this a rational practice? Of course not. It is a very stupid practice. But you don’t question it. you don’t use your reason to judge whether there is any value to it. You do it blindly because you follow Islam not your reason.
Islam prescribes fasting. What is the value of it? It is extremely harmful to health and particularly kidneys and liver.
In Islam women are valued half of men. This is not rational.
In Islam the unbelievers are untouchable and Muslims should avoid them in a rainy day. Is this rational? How can one’s thoughts and belief affect their cleanliness?
There are myriad of stupid things in Islam that are irrational and as a believer you can’t question them. Some of them are so ridiculous that Muslims have decided to twist their meaning and lie about them outright, for example when the Quran says the earth is an expanse, they claim it means the universe is expanding. When it talks about the jinns and angels they say it is talking about extraterrestrials. When it says the sun sets in muddy spring, they say it means it appears as if it sets in muddy spring. When it says sperms are proceed from the backbone, they say it travels through the back bone (actually it doesn’t). When the Quran says the Moon is luminous,they says noon means reflected light. When the Quran says stars are missiles that God throws at jinns when they eavesdrop to listen to the conversation of the High Assembly, they don’t hear this question.
The Quran is full of absurdities and you can’t use your reason when reason and the Quran contradict. At the same time you want to be called a rational person. You can’t be both. You either follow the revelation or follow your reason. This is a simple concept and you don’t even understand this.
"ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH"
THAT IS NOT MUSLIM PRAYER!
"In order to pray to Allah . . . Muslims don't involve Prophet Muhammad"
———
Yes, they do. Here is an example-
"ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH"
Islam is based on lies.
No the Quran does not say the universe is expanding. It say it is an expanse and even compares it to a bed or carpet. Please see my response to this lie here.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbellp4.htm
"If you choose to follow Islam – then it is obvious you do things according to what the religion asks. Else what is the point of following something?"
———-
Same thing with the robot. It does things according to what the instructions require.
*******
"Say you join a particular society and accept its rules. . . then why would you go off and start doing thins against it?"
———–
To do things against a society is different from innovating new things into society, or modifying existing ones. When we innovate or modify, we are not going 'against' society; we are only helping make it better.
So lets say I am a Sikh and we don't do worship through idols. If after doing tons of studying and research, I decide that worshipping god through idols is not only easier for the worshipper, but also more effective towads his/her spiritual enlightenment, then I should be able to either include this practice into the religion, or quit the religion and join another. If I can do either of these without fear of punishment (in this world or afterwards), only then am I NOT a robot.
“In order to pray to Allah . . . Muslims don’t involve Prophet Muhammad.”
Allah was Muhammad’s own alter ego. Let us put this question in another way. Can a person believe in God and worship him through another prophet or directly without accepting Muhammad?
The answer is no. That is because Muhammad presented himself as the inseparable partner of God. He never said this directly because people would have left him but he designed his religion in such a way that he is indispensable to worshiping God. Believe in one god is baloney. Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians believed in one god. So why he invaded them and killed them? It was all about his own power.
The separation you are talking about is not called autonomy. It is called subjugation. Read again the Quran 9:29. Non Muslims are to be subdued and should pay jizyah will willing submission and feeling humiliated. I also propose separation between Muslims and non-Muslims but not of that subjugation, submission and wiling humiliation or any taxation. I just want them to leave us alone and let us be free and them be free in their own countries, There they can rape their prepubescent children, marry as many women as they want, and beat them if they please. We will also agree to send any person among us who converts to Islam to you and you must agree to send any Muslim who leaves Islam to us.
Yes western Western society allows equality – regardless of the individual. As long as one wishes to live as a member. But this is not the Islamic concept and Muslims have their own divine values which they are not going to give up. If they come to power in the West they will eliminate our concept of freedom. Therefor we should send them home now before it is too late.
Taking the voting right of Muslims is allowed by commonsense and the instinct of self protection, It is allowed by the constitutions of democratic nations. Since Islam is not just a religion but a subversive political movement that aims to overthrow our democracy and system of government, it is not just allowed but imperative to declare it illegal.
You've been reading too much islamofascist propaganda. Women aren't required to have slave owners in Japan or Korea or China. Their cultures have evolved, islam hasn't.
"Muslims do not believe in giving freedom to non Muslims to live in their own way. "
Wrong – Muslims believe in giving autonomy. Separation.
– – –
" As such, it should be seen that Muslims do not get freedom to challenge the freedom of others."
However – this is not the Western concept of freedom. . . . it is not a reactionary system. Western society allows equality – regardless of the individual. As long as one wishes to live as a member.
– – –
"Freedom like voting rights, etc. To that extent, taking away the freedom of Muslims is allowed."
I didn't get what this meant . . . when you say "allowed" – who is allowing it? And where?
Western societies – allow Muslims to participate in the political system.
Nothing wrong with that.
Muslims do not believe in giving freedom to non Muslims to live in their own way. As such, it should be seen that Muslims do not get freedom to challenge the freedom of others. Freedom like voting rights, etc. To that extent, taking away the freedom of Muslims is allowed.
"Dr. Sina uses logic and reason to explain things."
It requires learning and skill to tell a fallacious argument from a valid one. An ability which you severely lack. . .
"Are YOU free to do things in a way other than how Islam requires you to?"
If you choose to follow Islam – then it is obvious you do things according to what the religion asks. Else what is the point of following something?
Hence:
"Let's say you decide that the black stone at the kaaba shouldn't be there. Are you free to reject its importance? Let's say you decide that women should stand alongside men (instead of behind them) when they pray in the neighborhood small mosque; Are you free to start a new system where women stand equal to men? Let's say you decide that in order to pray to Allah, you don't need to involve Muhammad in there; Are you free to leave him out of your prayers?
If not, then wouldn't you be a robot??"
This is a fallacious proposition. Say you join a particular society and accept its rules. . . then why would you go off and start doing thins against it?
Same thing with your own faith. When you have figured out – whether is Hinduism or Sikhism.
– – –
"Let's say you decide that in order to pray to Allah, you don't need to involve Muhammad in there; Are you free to leave him out of your prayers? "
In order to pray to Allah . . . Muslims don't involve Prophet Muhammad.
Was refering to a comment made by ali sina
"Let us assume that the revelation is superior to human reason. So when I believe in revelation I must give up reason any time reason contradicts it."
I just told you about instances where you 'resoning is a flaw'
As a mater of fact when it comes to out of earth sicience, its relatively still in its infancy, The fact that the universe is constantly expanding explained by a scientist using the light spectrum and mentioned in the Quran is an evidence to proof this. If your reason was to rely on science before the expanding module of the universe was even hypothesized, as per your reasoning, you would have rejected it outright, right?
Please just as you admitted above, reasoning can be flawed especially in an ever changing world.
huh?
"!?"
Rational, Divine rational and let me tell you your flaws! In your dictionary, its either an individual is rational or he is a Muslim right? The part of your brain responsible for thinking i guess is hanging right?…….When one rationalize as human, you only weigh your options against current knowledge which you know is constantly changing! Resting your entire life on a changing concept is pathetic! Very pathetic. Some time ago, SCIENTIST, called HIV a gay related disease! Now it is known to be an all sex disease. Sometime ago, scientist believe atoms were the smallest, but they discovered protons, Neutrons and Electrons they refereed to them as the smallest, until recently they discovered there another phase smaller particles that made up the Neutrons etc! called Quarks, so rely your faith on things that can be proven will only lead you astray, cos by the time the ultimate truth is reached, you are dead!!!
Thank you very much for your response! it only gives me a little window to your mind and how you probably think, how you reach your conclusions. Its unfortunate though i can make you see them. Neither can i start writing a whole bunch to explain to you. I will let it rest there. But i will recommend, you make time and visit Africa, specifically west Africa, come probably as a tourist, A lot of Arabs and whites come in thousands yearly, locate a village and experience for your self! this are not street or stage magics this are real manifestations of Extraterrestrial activities, probably this will open your mind to start thinking differently as to the Existence of a supreme being. I don't need an overwhelming scientific evidence! That will be enough! Dont start labeling me a terrorist who is tricking you to come to Africa and get bomed, if this is how your percive the whole issue, Please stay back in your hole and continue your Logical fight against Misguided Muslims!
Dear Ms Ali Sina, what do you mean by saying that there is no proof of spiritual beings? Don't you know the fact that you are a spirit and you have a soul and you live in a body? Don't you know the fact that the moment you stop breathing for good, your spirit will step out of your body and return to the Light Who made you? Stop being an ignorant fool! It's time now for you to think through what I've just said and come to terms with the fact that there is life beyond the grave. Einstein has missed the point and I hope that you will not follow in his footsteps!
"If blasphemy is not punished then all the truths about Mohammad will be out and all Muslims will start leaving Islam one by one. "
Yet – where blasphemy isnt punishable by death . . . why aren't Muslims leaving is such droves? And even find many new converts?
– – –
Bullshit works both ways sonny.
" Once we have enough people to elect an anti Islam government, all we have to do is to pass a law saying any religion or ideology that promotes ideas contrary to our constitution is considered subversive and is banned. "
Ah . . . therein lies your problem. No "freedom loving" country will ever vote this in. Not without severely compromising itself.
When France banned Head wear – everyone saw it as to what it was . . . a law made against Islam.
This compromises the mantra of "freedoms". Any way you look at it . . . West comes out far worse.
– – –
It's not important whether Ms Ali Sina will die before me or not. It's more important that his good works on planet earth will continue to inspire all braindead zombies to come to the absolute truth.
Bro, till 1896, a part of Afghanistan was pagan, called Kafristan. It was bifurcated with Durrend line. Half part went to Chitral area, under British. That area is called Kalash Desh. People are still pagan. That pagan area under Pakistan still has no problem.
Area under Afghanistan, was forcibly converted by then Amir. Renamed as Nuristan. It is hell for the Indo Aryan speaking converts to Islam. Only remaining part of pagan heritage left is their language. Their life is made hell by Mujahids, Talibans and co.
Taking ought like that is not there. Shaving not allowed as fitra/ human nature, should not be disturbed or sacrificing own face to the Guru.
Tenth Guru in his book, wrote works similar to Sufi poets of India, and a good lot of Farsi poetry namely Charitropakhyan and Hiqayat Pashahi 10. Unlike rest of Sufis who used Shiva and Parvati as symbol of Al Wasi(all enclosing), he used symbol of Durga. Neither prophet PBUH nor any Sikh Guru started any faith. Their followers created religion. Hazrat Fareed Ganj E Shakar RA, was born much more before Guru Nanak, contemporary to him was inheritor of Faridi Branch of Chisti order of Sufi was Sheik Brahm RA. Tenth Guru's work are near to Sufis, the way of love/Prem Marg, while first Gurus work are nearer to that Hindu Bhkti /devotion movement of Gyan Marg, the way of knowledge. They follow panenthieism.Seeing God in all universe and beyond.
It is similar to Fitra(Keeping God giving natural parts of body) or say Hindu ascetics agreeing to keep command of God.
"Let us say I face a problem and I used my own reasoning and come to a very wrong conclusion. You on the other hand ask someone who knows the answer and without bothering to think about it find the right answer. You come to the right answer without using reason while I come to the wrong conclusion using my own reason. "
This isn't what "rational" thinking is all about. Badly put together.
Yes . . . but where your argument falls down is – the "extent" of the questions a religion answers.
Islam for example at absolute core is the belief in one Creator.
– – –
"People who use their own brain, whether they come to right conclusions or false conclusions use rational methodology and those who follow someone else don’t use rational methodology. "
Way to general . . . to be meaningful.
You've already conceded that religious people too have the capacity to use "rational methodology" – and it only in "religious" matters (i.e. Moral Guidance) they cede to revelation.
Then why not argue within that parameter. Your generalisation here is wrong . . . else I can give previous examples . . . that already point out where your argument falls down.
– – – –
"You are saying that religious way of thinking is rational. This is not true. They are contradictory. "
That is NOT what I am saying. The questions . . a religion sets out to answer are very different than science.
Both rarely cross path . . . the ONLY major conflict is "creation of Humanity".
Blending both in the way you have done is incorrect.
There is no "religious" way of thinking as such that is at parallel with human reasoning.
All religion does is fill a few boxes – else you wouldn't be able to.
Rational methodology is applied within religious context too. Hence Muslim advancement of Logic.
"We either do our own research or trust another person who claims to know it. "
Or do both . . . same with the box example.
– – –
"The Quran says the heaven is made of seven layers and the stars are in the lower heaven. Muhammad did not invent this idea of the cosmos. It was the prevalent idea of his time. Eventually, those who stopped believing in divine authority started probing the universe and used mathematics as a tool in deciphering its secrets. They found out that heaven is not made of seven layers, the stars are the farthest objects from the earth and the very distinction between heaven and earth is a fallacy. The earth is also part of the heaven. "
"They found out that heaven is not made of seven layers, the stars are the farthest objects from the earth and the very distinction between heaven and earth is a fallacy."
Things like that are just your nonsense. . . I severely doubt you can back this up. You hardly ever manage it.
– – –
"So we have two different explanations of how the universe is made. They are very contradictory. One is based on reason and science and the other is based on revelation. Here I am not talking which truth is correct. "
This is ridiculous and fallacious reasoning . . .
yo have purposefully made it out so that these are 2 different and contradictory explanations. . .
Quran is never scientifically inaccurate. Not even once.
"Let us assume that the revelation is superior to human reason. So when I believe in revelation I must give up reason any time reason contradicts it."
If it contradicts it . . . as far science goes – Quran is NOT scientifically inaccurate.
This WHOLE debate is bogus. All Quran asks you to believe in a deity. Even then it doesn't bother to tell you much about the creator.
Purpose of the Quran is not to impart scientific knowledge – its purpose is moral guidance.
Quran more or less – simply describes obvious phenomena – that had to be understood by the people at the time. Hence it is so-called "scientific" verses are vague and general.
It is job impossible to to PROVE – any inaccuracy.
Look at the roster of your posts that point to such things . . .
They are petty, trifling and inaccurate. One of the video you post up about flat earth – is inaccurate when describing how the Earth's crust was formed.
You simply don't have the skills. Either sufficient mastery over Arabic or Science.
– – – –
"There are many instances that reason and faith contradict. For example, the story of Adam and Eve versus the evolution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve#No…
Single origin of humanity?
– – – –
, or the existence of angels and jinns that is stipulated in religious texts but rejected by science.
How and where? It is science doing the rejection . . . it is YOU.
– – –
"Where do you stand on these and many other issues like these when religion and science contradict? Do you cling to religious truth or to scientific truth? "
You have made it to contradict . . . O.K the Evolution is a big question. But how many other are there.
Jinn business is simply your dishonesty. So is the Cosmology you describe above.
– – –
"There are thousands of statements in the Quran that are against science. What is your response? Your response is to deny the obvious and claim that the Quran means something very different to what it actually says. "
Another dishonesty – if you ask a question and answer it your self – that is putting words in my mouth.
– – –
"Let us talk about the seven layers of the heavens and the earth. Where are these seven layers of the heaven and the seven layers of the earth? "
Let's. [email protected]
Either that or start a forum . . . WordPress bbPress integrates well. It is impossible to do it here.
"The Quran says sperm is made in the backbone. Science says it is created in the testicles."
Again – Quran simply points to the general regions – even back then they knew where sperms generally came from!
– – –
"The Quran says the moon is a source of light. Zakir Naik has found an ingenious way to get around this problem. He interprets noor (light) as reflected light. "
You are bit too impressed with Naik! Lets look at each turn by turn. . . and what Quran actually says – not what you claim it says.
– – –
" The truth is that the Quran and the science are very contradictory."
No they are not. Simply your claim
– – –
"You can either hold the authority of revelation or the authority of reason, but not both. "
Authority of revelation.
– – –
"I am not saying religious people are always irrational in all things. But when it comes to religion, they put aside reason and follow revelation. "
Glad to hear it. . . . then stop making grandiose BS remarks – that you know you can't defend.
"whatever it says of my mindset…… you may have found the message i posted useful i feel. Islam is like a gangrene."
No – i simply found it . . . ridiculous and meaningless. Like I said . . . why would your opinions bother me?
"I believe in things that can be proven with facts."
The primary meaning of the word believe is having confidence in the truth of something without absolute certainty. So if something is proven by facts . . . why believe?
– – –
"There is no proof of spiritual beings. They may exist or may not. I have no interest in discussing things that cannot be proven."
This is a remarkably "ignorant" thing to say. . . science would not have progressed if you applied your reasoning.
Much of what Einstien proposed was mathematical models. Had he taken that huffy attitude. . . world wouldn't have progressed this far.
"Afghanistan was once a civilised, peaceful Hindu and Buddhist country"
When was that?
– – –
People like you are hate monger and nothing more – you go around posting such brief comments of hate.
I believe in things that can be proven with facts. There is no proof of spiritual beings. They may exist or may not. I have no interest in discussing things that cannot be proven. I don’t even think about them.
'it does not revolve around a single individual' You just also choose not the departmentalize the stories of the prophet in Your head! if only your can mix them up and reason together, you will know the prophet also warned that nothing about Him should be written, As much as we have been Able to proof that the prophet was literate, you have an extremely rare number of Hadith reporting that The prophet wrote about himself! If only you know the number of people who reference your work and boast about your work when they have even barely read it, The number of people who are hate driven bacause of what you write, and the 1000 more who are willing to write based on your writtings then you will no that it is no longer yours to decide whether its about you or not. Its ideologies the people need! And your ideologies are filled with hate towards muslims, Very similar to that of the Jihadist and extreme radical Muslims. People have been motivations to so many crimes against humanity, They started just like you Ali Sina, it was not about them, they were only writing to fight against certain things they also thought were wrong……..So i am not surprised you are also giving the same talk!You are an atheist right? I am of African decent, my immediate grandparents were traditionalist and i have a healthy knowledge of certain extraterrestial issues which i experienced myself, which i still do when you go to villages for ceremonial gatherings. My Question for you is simple, Do you believe in Spirit beings???? i have asked you this before you never responded.
I think that this Muslimah in the video clip ought to exchange places with one of the above Afghanistan woman and let's see if she will still 'lower her gaze' and talk nonsense here.
Indirectly you wish him to die before you !
[youtube vPROgJ2kxMk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPROgJ2kxMk youtube]
[youtube kG7nPzLbodw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG7nPzLbodw youtube]
I hate muslims, for much the same reason I despise Nazis. There is NOTHING to like about islam
or muslimes. They continue to persecute, slaughter, rape and forcibly convert people of other faiths
as they have for a thousand years and lie about all of it. Afghanistan was once a civilised, peaceful Hindu and Buddhist country, what is it NOW and why?
"Jews are not any better". So what? This is a red herring argument, because what Jews
once did (and they don't do that anymore) isn't relevant to the second class status women have in most all Muslim states NOW.
I believe that Adam is a hermaphrodite, having two sexes in the beginning. When the Lord God removed the female reproductive organs from him and inplant it in Eve, Adam left only with the male reproductive organs. That's the reason why after the Lord God presented Eve to Adam, he exclaimed that: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” Isn't this clue gave us a big picture of the significance of every woman on this planet earth? The truth is that Muslimahs are not worthless creatures and they are all precious in the eyes of the Lord God. Peace be upon all women on earth. 🙂
It's really sad to look at the above pictures of Muslimahs being treated like trash. Can you see the tears behind the veil? Can you hear their plea for freedom from this horrible bondage? Why are women being regarded as inferior creatures when they are all supposed to be cherished and loved?
When our loving Creator God created our first ancestor, Adam, in the Garden of Eden. He knew that Adam is lonely and that he needs a helper but no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of Adam, and he brought her to him.
This is beautiful
Perfect love cast out all fear.
I wish to write a biography of my dear Ms Ali Sina when he enter into eternity with the strong conviction that there is life beyond the grave and that he is truly safe in the arms of Jesus. Oh, my dear Ms Ali Sina, will you please grant a kind, beautiful and intelligent Christian lady like me, this humble wish, to paint a beautiful picture of you, so that all the Muslims will know you love them very much. 🙂
It will be the day when Islam is dismantled. When the Muslims start cursing Mohammad. When Mecca and Medina become free zone for all humanity. When Allah is clearly acknowledged by Muslims as Mohammad aka Satan.
That day everyone will stop talking about sending the Muslims to Uranus.
I think though it was her writing — no doubt. But what inspired her to say that / THE UGLIEST NAME ANYONE CAN COME WITH IS MUSLIM / are the evil deeds of Muslims and Mohammad.
Though her own writing, Julia may give full credit to Mohammad and his Muslims for the above line.
First of all you give me too much credit. No one will write a book about me if I die. I am not that important for anyone to write books about me.
I have tried to make it clear that this fight is not about me, that it does not have a leader, it does not revolve around any single individual. There are numerous people who are writing against Islam. I am just one of them and I am not the greatest. I think I was one of the first who used the Internet to spread the truth. That has more to do with being in the right time at the right place. In the early days faithfreedom.org was the main anti Islam site and we had hundreds of posters in every given time in out forum. But the site was banned in Muslim countries and I encouraged everyone to start their own site. Now there are thousands of sites. So we have many more competitors. It is not good for the business but it is good for the cause.. Since fighting for our freedom is not a business but a cause, I am quite happy about that.
I read the guardian news report. Nowhere does it say that people are indoctrinated against Muslims. According to the report, people who took part in killing Muslims (who STARTED the trouble by burning a train-load of Hindus), were punished and jailed en masse.
Whereever there are Muslims and non-muslims, there are conflicts. There are conflicts in the west (Muslims- westerners), in Africa (Muslims- christians/animists), in China (Uighurs- hans), in Thailand (Muslims- Buddhists), in Kashmir (Muslims- India), in mainland India (Muslims- Hindus) and I can go on and on. People are not dumb Amin. They see that in almost every conflict in the world, one party is Muslim. They can tell that the flaw has to be with Muslims, not others.
"That is ABSOLUTE balderdash . . . and complete lie from you. A news story and news report – for most of time are one and same thing . . . simple. You just created meaningless conflict out of it"
————
I created the conflict?? I posted links to news reports, and you dismissed them as biased, fabricated, 'stories'. And now you are accusing ME of creating meaningless conflict??
“I will much rather drive my Rolls Royce straight into hell, which for the record does not exist in your line of thought, so you cannot be quoting hell and heaven to me.”
———-
I wasn’t talking about the hell that comes after death. I was talking about hell right in this world. Islam turns a person’s life to hell, and it creates a hellish society. You know Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square bomber. He was a very educated, and affluent person. But because he submitted to Islam, he has ended up in prison for the rest of his life. Now his wife doesn’t have a husband at home, and his children don’t have a father at home. He has created hell for himself, and for his family. If his bomb went off successfully, he would have created hell for, God knows how many more people. And this is only one example from the west. The Islamic world is full of such hell.
“Where does our 'soul' come from and where does it go after 'death'? This is a simple question, that should be answered easily by the likes of you”
————
I told you in the previous comments that just because we don’t know scientific answers to some questions, does not mean we should blindly start following someone or something. If you want answers to those questions despite knowing that scientific answers are not available yet, then at least follow decent people, and decent ‘beliefs’, NOT terror manuals like Qu’ran, or madmen like Muhammad.
If you want to know what I believe then here is my answer. Even Ali Sina probably has never heard this before. So don't tell me Ali Sina 'indoctrinated' me. I personally like arts. For example I like stories, pictures, statues, movies etc. I found an artful answer to those questions from the Hindu concept of Mother Goddess.
Here are my answers to your two questions-
1) Where does our soul come from?
It comes from Mother Goddess. She wanted me to come to this world and experience this world. Whether she ‘created’ my soul for this trip, or whether it was already there, I don’t know, and this question doesn’t bother me enough for me to start inquiring. All I know is that right now I am still ‘visiting’ this world, and experiencing the different things it has to offer.
2) Where does it (the soul) go after death?
It goes back to the Mother. Now if you are gonna ask me whether or not I am afraid to go back, No I am not! When you were little, and your mother let you go play in the park for an hour or so, were you ever afraid to come back to her after you were done playing? No you were not! You trusted your mother, and you trusted her so well that you didn’t doubt her one iota. Same thing with Mother Goddess. When I am finished with this world, the soul goes back to the Mother. And I trust her enough that I don’t get bothered regarding what will happen afterwards. Notice the word ‘trust’ that I emphasized in the paragraph. Trust God (the real God, not Muhammad’s god), and don’t be afraid.
BTW, here is one picture of Mother Goddess:
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&b…
“The more I listen to yours and Ali Sina's rantings, the more Islam makes sense. You guys are actually leading more people to Islam than actually taking away without even realising it.”
———
Well, then you should tell everyone, especially Muslims, about this site. Imagine how much stronger the ummah will become. And you will get bonus sawab points from Allah 🙂
********
“Everything we do is learnt throughout our lifetimes. We use so many guides in order to justify our being and stance”
———–
Can you name me a handful of the ‘guides’ that you have used, besides Quran?
********
“You give personal views which are indoctrined into you via Ali Sina and given time all you spew is hate. Based on what? Nothing but hate.”
————
I wrote a story about the hippy Shiva, which clearly shows I am not supposed to hate any people. Did you read that story?? I also posted a video link to a lecture by Vivek Shauq, which too teaches not to hate people. Did you watch that video?? Dr. Sina never knew about that story. The video that I posted is in hindi/urdu and is not subtitled. So HOW did Ali Sina ‘indoctrinate’ me??
Apparently, neither one word of what I wrote, nor a single word of what Jens DK wrote, sank in your head. So all I can tell you is Don't be an Atheist! Go ahead and believe in a 'God'. You will however, be doing a great service to humanity if you stay away from Muhammad's God.
Which Muslim out of those 1.5 billion doesn't follow the Sunnah of the 'prophet' Muhammad???
Muslims are way smarter than you give them credit for Ali Sina. I will now break it down for you and I implore you to answer.
Let's just say that everything you say about Islam is correct and you want to take us out of bondage. The Muslims in their current position are in a win-win situation and could never lose. Why? I will explain:
If the Great Ali Sina is right and there is no Hell, Heaven, Afterlife or God, then when the Muslims die, which they will just like every other human, they lose nothing and have nothing to fear. After death, they will undergo the same fate as Ali Sina and the likes because all this talk of God was baloney. No punishment, no reward, no anything. Absolutely nothing will happen to them and neither will they gain anything.
The worst that can be deduced is that they wasted a number of years on thisearth following something that didn't exist. Not a bad price to pay considering after death, Ali Sina cannot give an explanation as to what happens with humans.
If on the other hand, there is Hell, Heaven, Afterlife and God, then the Muslims gain eternity and everything else that goes with it. They will not have the same fate as Ali Sina and the likes.
You see, it is a win-win situation for the Muslims.
You guys are taking a 50/50 chance holding your position, whilst we are taking zero risk and holding our position where the possibility of the same result as yours will be the same.
If we are wrong, no problems, but if you are wrong, big problems.
So you see, we are not as dumb as you might think. We are the ones taking zero risk, whilst you are the ones taking a 50% risk.
No just hatemongers Jewel. The day you stop talking out Uranus and start thinking with the head between your shoulders, you will understand.
You guys are slaves the The Chosen One Ali Sina.
“On the same token . . . . that Hitler was rational.”
I did not say he was irrational? I also did not say Muhammad was irrational. They used reason and offered rational arguments to fool multitudes. Reason is not always correct. It can be very flawed. I am talking of reason as a methodology. People who use their own brain, whether they come to right conclusions or false conclusions use rational methodology and those who follow someone else don’t use rational methodology.
Let us say I face a problem and I used my own reasoning and come to a very wrong conclusion. You on the other hand ask someone who knows the answer and without bothering to think about it find the right answer. You come to the right answer without using reason while I come to the wrong conclusion using my own reason.
We are talking about methodology. The methodology of the believer is not a rational methodology. It is based on faith. The only argument that you can make is that faith is superior to human reason, because faith is based in divine knowledge whereas reasoning is based on human knowledge. This is the argument that religious people make. It is logically a sound argument. You can see this in the Bible, you can see this in the Quran and you can see this stated by many religious scholars such as al Ghazzali, Rumi, Sohrawardi and many others.
You are saying that religious way of thinking is rational. This is not true. They are contradictory.
There are two ways of finding any truth. We either research it or we rely on someone else. There is no third way. Let us say I want to know what is inside a box. Either I have to open it and look inside it or trust someone to tell me what is inside it. The same is true about understanding the universe. We either do our own research or trust another person who claims to know it.
The Quran says the heaven is made of seven layers and the stars are in the lower heaven. Muhammad did not invent this idea of the cosmos. It was the prevalent idea of his time. Eventually, those who stopped believing in divine authority started probing the universe and used mathematics as a tool in deciphering its secrets. They found out that heaven is not made of seven layers, the stars are the farthest objects from the earth and the very distinction between heaven and earth is a fallacy. The earth is also part of the heaven.
So we have two different explanations of how the universe is made. They are very contradictory. One is based on reason and science and the other is based on revelation. Here I am not talking which truth is correct. Let us assume that the revelation is superior to human reason. So when I believe in revelation I must give up reason any time reason contradicts it.
There are many instances that reason and faith contradict. For example, the story of Adam and Eve versus the evolution, or the existence of angels and jinns that is stipulated in religious texts but rejected by science. Where do you stand on these and many other issues like these when religion and science contradict? Do you cling to religious truth or to scientific truth?
Religious people tell us that human reasoning is flawed and that science is incomplete and therefore unreliable, but God’s knowledge is absolute and perfect. When these two don’t match they side with the revelation. Where do you stand on this issue?
Now don’t tell me that everything in the Quran is scientifically verifiable. There are thousands of statements in the Quran that are against science. What is your response? Your response is to deny the obvious and claim that the Quran means something very different to what it actually says. This response is not honest. Let us talk about the seven layers of the heavens and the earth. Where are these seven layers of the heaven and the seven layers of the earth? The Quran says sperm is made in the backbone. Science says it is created in the testicles. The Quran says the moon is a source of light. Zakir Naik has found an ingenious way to get around this problem. He interprets noor (light) as reflected light. These are deceptions. The truth is that the Quran and the science are very contradictory. Which in your opinion has the higher authority? You can either hold the authority of revelation or the authority of reason, but not both.
I am not saying religious people are always irrational in all things. But when it comes to religion, they put aside reason and follow revelation.
@Jens DK. It is none of my business what family members and non family members want to follow. Each person is responsible for their OWN actions.
You can choose your friends, but you cannot choose your family.
Just like you atheists support each other, we Muslims do the same and support each other. And no, the Atheists in the family are not violent or killers, but they sure are stupid and lost.
Similar to other Atheists, they haven't a clue!
You can dress it up as much as you want Jens DK. Atheism is Atheism. There are no offshoots or sects here. When the shoe is on the other foot, you start running for cover.
The fact still remains that despite what you say about Islam or any other religion for that matter, Atheism has killed far more humans than any other. Atheists are the real threat to civilization. The poison your leader Ali Sina spews at every turn is just the latest in the line of evidence.
Or do you want actual figures on how much Atheism has killed?
Muslim said: "Ali sina who is using multiple user names ? Not me"
Ali Sina wrote this to Esther, not to you.
Be not paranoied.
You are not the center of the world.
Better start reply the comments to all posts.
You have many days work waiting here.
I think we should nominate you for the Pulitzer Prize for that blinder of a response Julia.
Did you put that sentence together all by yourself?
The ugliest name anyone can come with is MUSLIM .
And you are clearly a MUSLIM.
Julia said: "you must not take unbelievers as your friends or helpers "
In the family of Ali they do not follow this.
I believe this is a koranic verse.
I understand, that you do not follow the koran. Ali.
Please confirm.
And tell us, what more koranic verses, you do not follow.
The atheists in your family, are they voilent people? Killers?
Ali Sina, If you die today, Do you know what people would start writing about you? Do you know the story that would be surrounding your life? So many stories from likers and so many from haters, so many from hearsays. People would write that you were inciting people against millions of people of the world, people would say that you were in 100% support of nuking Arab worlds, People would say you believe Muslims are underdeveloped species, and you said the term Muslim is tantamount to stupid…..etc. Lets say all this story from generation to generations is transferred, Distortions and lies creep in. People with selfish motives re-interpret your arguments, with so much distortion. People will create a monster out of your criticism and create ideologies from them. I can promise you from the kind of hate you spew against 1 billion Muslims in the world, you cult would be more deadly! Than what the jihadist are doing, a government created based on your ideologies would kill Muslims instantly, would be more mean than anything you can think of. Your intentions may be different when you were alive, but what can you do from the Grave? lol…Nothing!
You think if someone wrote a book about your then, labeling you a pathological psychopath people would not believe it? a book on a psychoanalysis of you based on your stories which have been selected from sources of your followers who have interpreted to suit their various agenda? you think it will not be similar to what you are doing to the dead Muhammad?
Following on . . . Islam the religion of more than1.5billion isn't one directive that everyone follows.
Hence lumping all together is equally wrong or equally right.
Following deceitfull bait from Ali, KnowTheEnemy say this:"I am full aware that Atheists have killed a hell lot of people."
Atheisme is not ONE ideology.
Many Atheists are pacifist.
Surely communists, who called themselves atheists killed many, many people in Sovjet, China and Vietman.
But not all atheists are communists.
To say "atheists killed…", would be like saying: "religious people killed..", making no distinction between, lets say, buddhisme, christianity, islam hinduisme etc .
Looks logic, but it is complete nonsense, dear Ali
Considering knowTheEnemy made the initial claim . . . hence the burden of proof is on him. This is isn't my claim. . . . hence nothing to prove.
Else . . . what is it that you need proof of?
So with Islam being the second largest Faith in the world, we should quarantine the likes of you Raj and everyone who follows your belief system whatever that might be as you are a minority. In any democracy, the majority rule. Correct?
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Judging by your comments, you've been watching too many Bollywood movies!
"Islam does NOT sanction anything of the sort. "
Prove it.
Demsci. I am happy with Islam and believe it is right for me. Maybe there isn't an afterlife, heaven or hell, but I will take my chances.
Nobody lives forever, and 50 years from now, we will be dead, buried and long forgotten. If there is no hell, heaven or afterlife, what will I lose? Nothing. Why? Because God doesn't exist. Right?
However, if there is a hell, heaven and an afterlife, I will gain everything?
So as it stands I will stick to Islam hoping for the afterlife and if it doesn't exist, I wouldn't have lost anything, as no God. Easiest way to get the best of both worlds for me!
Its in response to Know the truths comment, I dont know when i reply from my mail directly, i dont see the comment posted on the real page.
@knowTheEnemy. At least you have come clean about your hatred towards Islam. They say patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait.
The more I listen to yours and Ali Sina's rantings, the more Islam makes sense. You guys are actually leading more people to Islam than actually taking away without even realising it.
Tell me, exactly where did Ali Sina and his cult following learn their humanity from? Everything we do is learnt throughout our lifetimes. We use so many guides in order to justify our being and stance. So exactly what is Ali Sina's and his cultists?
Like I have asked before, I will ask again. Why has Islam grown from 200 million in 1900 to 1.57 Billion in 2009, if you are right and we are wrong? This is an increase of 700%. Please explain to me.
I have been more than fair with you by asking reasonable and logical questions to which you cannot answer. You give personal views which are indoctrined into you via Ali Sina and given time all you spew is hate. Based on what? Nothing but hate. Was Guru Nanak a fool as well or do you hold him in such high esteem?
Where does our 'soul' come from and where does it go after 'death'? This is a simple question, that should be answered easily by the likes of you.
I will much rather drive my Rolls Royce straight into hell, which for the record does not exist in your line of thought, so you cannot be quoting hell and heaven to me. Than ride a tricycle in the Arizona desert and die of sun stroke, heat exhaustion and thirst.
Nobody is asking you to come to Islam. Far from it. You take your chances and we will take ours. Just keep your hate mongering venom to yourself.
Who are you referring to?
Classic coward speak . . . . hiding behind anonymity to abuse and hate others.
"I did tell about my 'faith'. "
You didn't – you skipped between being a Hindu/Sikh. You are either one or the other.
– – –
" That is why I come here to help show the true face of Islam"
No you don't . . you come here to spread hate against Muslims . . . how can you know the true face of anything?
With your lies . . . your inability? Your nonsensical reasoning, petty comments? Your ignorance?
– – –
Take your bogus "flat earth" claim . . . you hold this to be true – despite evidence that you are completely wrong. Now you cannot debate it. . . . but you will repeat your falsehood. . .
. . . why is that? Simply because – you are a hate monger. And your religion taught you that.
"You should only worry about my disorders if I make outlandish and illogical arguments and tell you if you don't believe you will go to hell. "
ha ha ha ha . . . you do make "outlandish and illogical arguments". And far worse.
" It means that by accepting Islam as your guide you will not question or doubt anything it says. "
It doesn't . . . your comment is indicative of your views in general. You repeat this falsehood often.
– – –
"You have decided to retire your brain and blindly follow someone else. Your decision will not be based on reason. you can no longer call yourself a rational person. You'd be okay as long as Islam is right. But what if it is not? You can't know because you have decided not to question it."
I have explained this once before – what is the point of repeating it.
A person does not lose his rational ability for simply being religious . . . you would have real hard decision convincing that Newton was irrational.
On the same token . . . . that Hitler was rational.
Even more so . . . the Russian fellow. . . Stalin – now he in comparison would be even more rational!?
– – –
"Just because people freely vote in power a dictatorship, it does not mean they are free."
The only problem is – if they complain afterwards. . . however this is a bad example/analogy to give. No one votes in a dictatorship freely. . . . but many choose to follow a religion.
– – –
"Likewise if you freely chose to follow, you can no longer be called a rational person."
Yeah . . . you keep repeating this . . . but this is simply your claim. And you have trouble backing it up. Hence you repeat the assertion over and over.
Human Rationality is far broader than this . . . if what you say is right – then that person cannot make any rational decision. . . which even you know is an idiotic claim. And untrue.
Second . . . then why do you have no qualms being so pally with irrational people such as Geller and Spencer?
– – –
"So if Muhammad says raiding non-Muslims and raping their women is okay, you don’t question it."
Untrue.
" If he says having sex with a nine years old child is okay you believe it."
Ah . . . where does he say that? Yet in Hanafi fiqh – min age for sex is marriage after puberty.
– – – –
"If he says the best earning is the stolen money that comes from spoils you don’t disagree."
Again . . . where does it say that?
– – –
" These are not rational teachings but you have abdicated reason."
These are TEACHINGS that you have JUST INVENTED.
And it is pretty deceptive and foul of you.
And also . . . if you look at what you have been saying about rationality – such example go AGAINST what you were claiming in the first place.
Claims such as:
"Your decision will not be based on reason. you can no longer call yourself a rational person. "
You are using this as a "fact" which it most certainly isn't. And here lies your deception.
– – – –
"A human with no reason is no better than an animal. You wilfully have chosen to abdicate your humanity and become an animal. "
Have you posted this bile at Spencer? I doubt it. . . . see this is how you er . . . dehumanize Muslims.
I got there long before you admitted it!
Hence pretty "rational" of me.
= = = =
How rational is your grandiose bullshit and lies . . . . such as "millions" have left Islam.
Thousands because of you? Why are they ALL pretty quiet?
Remember scholars were also involved in writing this long absurd stories about the prophet, they saw Sense and Logic in it as well, but it is a matter of time okay. Its just time!
"Your red herring about whether it is a 'news report', or 'news story', is one proof out of many that you only care about Islam, and not about people. "
That is ABSOLUTE balderdash . . . and complete lie from you. A news story and news report – for most of time are one and same thing . . . simple. You just created meaningless conflict out of it.
– – –
"That is the denying. The links that I post show that people were harmed."
And?
– – –
Like I said – you were indoctrinated from birth – against Muslims. Like this story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/india…
– – –
"Now tell me, if you care"
I care.
= = =
See how meaningless? That is your level
"I asked you! You are the one who claim to know all about Islam. "
huh? it doesn't work this way . . . sonny. That is why you are still a mere child. You made the claim – the burden of proof is hence upon you.
Obviously I am going to say – Islam does NOT sanction anything of the sort.
– – –
"Here is the denying, again. You are smart enough to know already, the answer to what you asked. But you care about nothing but the image of Islam. "
Again – more meaningless tripe. And you dodged the question. Not answering and ignoring things too difficult . . . you have particular talent in that!
"A religions person will not abandon his belief."
Simply not true . . . you were "religious" once so what happened?
– – –
" He will reject all the evidence provided against it and if he is a Muslim he will resort to violence if any person disagrees with his views."
A petty thing to say . . . why is that you have resort to this level? Again . . . where are your "millions" now?
I gave you the reason . . . maybe should have read more closely. The central belief is "God" – unless that is shaken . . . little things don't matter. Unless they add up to shake someones core beliefs.
– – –
"Apart from the fact that the belief itself is irrational, the methodology is also irrational."
Not true. . . again one can have perfectly logical/philosophical reasons to believe in God. Once that is accepted . . . a person will accept the rest easily.
– – –
"You chose to be irrational. "
Rationally Irrational. . . but it is you pinning the badge – not I.
– – –
"I haven’t ignored that fact. Scientists do that all the time. Today a group of scientists believe in parallel universes and another group thinks this is a crazy idea. Both groups have their reason. But they don’t base those beliefs on faith. Once this idea is proven or disproven, both groups will be trilled. Rational people don’t marry an idea. They give up an idea for which they have worked for decades in a heartbeat when evidence against it is provided and are happy to have finally solved the problem. "
All this is WITHIN the context of science only – and proves NOTHING. Religious people make excellent scientists.
I did tell about my 'faith'. And why is my name so important?? This site is about Islam, not me. Calling someone a coward, and hoping they will reveal their name….. That trick is not going to work with me. I don't have to show/prove to the world that I am not a coward.
*********
"Like I said – you were indoctrinated with hate of Islam. That is why you appear here to spread hate. . . "
———
Yes, I HATE Islam! I hate it because I see on a daily basis what it does to believers and others. Any sane human should hate Islam. That is why I come here to help show the true face of Islam, AND to show how its followers care more about saving the 'image' of Islam, than about people.
I haven’t been diagnosed with a mental disorder, but let us say I have a mental disorder. let us say I have the same disorders that I say Muhammad had, i.e. NPD, TLE and OCD. It is irrelevant to the arguments that I make. I am presenting logical arguments. And even people with these disorders can use logic.
You should only worry about my disorders if I make outlandish and illogical arguments and tell you if you don’t believe you will go to hell.
""Isn't that something wrong with Islam? "
Where in Islam are such actions sanctioned?"
———–
I asked you! You are the one who claim to know all about Islam.
***********
"And any proof as to the validity of such video. . . especially the "KASHMIR" connection?"
————–
Here is the denying, again. You are smart enough to know already, the answer to what you asked. But you care about nothing but the 'image' of Islam.
“you have ignored the fact that a person can make the rational decision to choose one world-view over the other.”
I haven’t ignored that fact. Scientists do that all the time. Today a group of scientists believe in parallel universes and another group thinks this is a crazy idea. Both groups have their reason. But they don’t base those beliefs on faith. Once this idea is proven or disproven, both groups will be trilled. Rational people don’t marry an idea. They give up an idea for which they have worked for decades in a heartbeat when evidence against it is provided and are happy to have finally solved the problem.
This is not the case with religious thinking. A religions person will not abandon his belief. He will reject all the evidence provided against it and if he is a Muslim he will resort to violence if any person disagrees with his views. Apart from the fact that the belief itself is irrational, the methodology is also irrational. You chose to be irrational.
"It not my fault if you don't know what a "News Story" is. Google it. "
————
That is the denying. The links that I post show that people were harmed. Your red herring about whether it is a 'news report', or 'news story', is one proof out of many that you only care about Islam, and not about people.
Now tell me, if you care, Is the following link a 'news report' or 'news story', or whether that is not even an issue? http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticle/501fd7fd…
"you also claim those things were definitely true if not they will not be recorded"
———-
Whoever recorded those things had made great efforts to find out their reliability. But that is not the reason why I think they are true. I think they are [mostly] true because they match the profile of a person who suffered from narcissism, epilepsy, and acromegaly. People back then did not know about these diseases and disorders, and their effects on a persons' behaviour, so it is virtually impossible that those things were made-up to make Muhammad look bad.
********
"What if now i say Ali Sina has also got a Mental Disorder?"
———–
Ali Sina uses logic and reason to explain things, and his explanation makes sense. Even if he has a mental disorder, I don't see it in his writings. All I see is logic, reason, humanity, and caring.
This is willful surrendering of one’s reason. It means that by accepting Islam as your guide you will not question or doubt anything it says. You have decided to retire your brain and blindly follow someone else. Your decision will not be based on reason. you can no longer call yourself a rational person. You’d be okay as long as Islam is right. But what if it is not? You can’t know because you have decided not to question it.
But you are not alone. There are a myriad religions that their followers believe to be the ultimate truth. And since all of them think like you the only way for reconciliation left is clash and confrontation.
An example is when people freely vote a dictatorship in power. But by doing so they have abdicated their freedom. Just because people freely vote in power a dictatorship, it does not mean they are free. Likewise if you freely chose to follow, you can no longer be called a rational person. In this case you freely choose to be irrational. So if Muhammad says raiding non-Muslims and raping their women is okay, you don’t question it. If he says having sex with a nine years old child is okay you believe it. If he says the best earning is the stolen money that comes from spoils you don’t disagree. If he says women are awra (vagina) you agree. These are not rational teachings but you have abdicated reason.
A human with no reason is no better than an animal. You wilfully have chosen to abdicate your humanity and become an animal.
Even people who sat down, scientifically make predictions in the filed of science and economics have these theories and predictions failing, needless to mention you, and Obsessed hate driven homo sapiens who thinks and imagines widely that he is going to save the world by riding her off islam. Malthusian population theory failed hopelessly, the the Dalton atomic theory or predictions where all false except one! I am not surprises you are predicting that it will happen in two decades. So you are also doomed to fail!
Now you are trying to rationalize to vindicate Ali Sina. You unfair Homo Sapien, it beats your imagination that someone will go through all of this just for what, His hate for islam or muslims?
But you fail to rationalize just like the Jihad and Hadith lovers, Believing in Absurd stories in hadith books about the prophet!, you also claim those things were definitely true if not they will not be recorded, To justify all the acts you claim the prophet had a disorder and that is why he was a killer, pedophile, rapist, Thief, a lecher, a prophet, a very good man at the-same time. What if now i say Ali Sina has also got a Mental Disorder? in this case a pathological obsession that is making him do all of this. A disorder which is forcing him to instead of fix an eyebrow, he is trying to gauge out an eye
Now you are trying to rationalize to vindicate Ali Sina. You unfair Homo Sapien, it beats your imagination that someone will go through all of this just for what, His hate for islam or muslims?
But you fail to rationalize just like the Jihad and Hadith lovers, Believing in Absurd stories in hadith books about the prophet!, you also claim those things were definitely true if not they will not be recorded, To justify all the acts you claim the prophet had a disorder and that is why he was a killer, pedophile, rapist, Thief, a lecher, a prophet, a very good man at the-same time. What if now i say Ali Sina has also got a Mental Disorder? in this case a pathological obsession that is making him do all of this. A disorder which is forcing him to instead of fix an eyebrow, he is trying to gauge out an eye.
Implementation of shariah democratically
That is what we had seen last year —- the killing of Salman Taseer in Pakistan. The verdict had been given by the lawyers of the democratic Pakistan even before the trial – all of them garlanded and lionised Mumtaz Qadri the killer.
Instead, how about taking away even the voting rights of Muslims?
"I will not waste my time with an extreme extreme skeptic."
Cop out – its called running away. You cannot defend your absurd positions.
– – – –
"This is pure Ad hominem. "
No it isn't. I don't think you know meaning of the word. Sorry – but it has generally been your attitude that is er . . . trollish.
– – –
"You say the Qur'an only muslims are an extremely small number right? and by implication, we should be ignored? i might be wrong but if i happen to be correct, Then by the-same implication, the jihadist are also an extremely small number, you should ignore the extremely small groups of Muslim terrorists. "
I do – however they are difficult to ignore in the sense – the chaos they cause.
– – –
The 2 verses – you quote are out of context.
– – –
"I study hadith with a healthy dose of suspicion, with a lot of skepticism, considering the hostile political conditions surrounding its collection and biases that have infiltrated it, I am not like shias or Sunnis who have recommended sources, i have a collection from every angle and sources, every issue is picked one at a time critically analyzed before conclusions are reached"
You don't . . . like I said – you simply do NOT have the skills. You cannot speak Arabic. And that is the absolute basic.
You don't know how isnad system works . . . for example.
All it is – that you have read Edip . . . who himself is not qualified.
– – –
"we able to proof that if the prophet had said a sentence everyday of his life, we would not even have the number of hadiths we have today, indicating that there a lot of lies in them"
Here you even miss the ABSOLUTE basics – Hadith are not Just the words of Prophet Muhammad – but reports of what he did.
Also there are duplicate Hadith . . . given that there were a large number of people reporting. Simply different sanads.
– – –
= = = =
"Remember, i do not accept the hadith for guidance to my lord as the Quran is enough for guidance. "
See you DODGED – the actual question. . . YOU DO RELY on Ahadith.
Else – you wont be able to understand the Arabic language – that is all conveyed through "Hadith".
– – –
Hence a pretty stupid position to take.
"And it will interest you to know most Quran only muslims have reached similar conclusions."
Who are – an extremely small number.
– – –
What you call "old stories" . . . . are the same old stories that are mentioned in the classical dictionaries. . . .
so how do you know what the Quran is saying . . . if you dismiss all the "old stories"?
Do you have your own private dictionary?
– – –
"I told you i read, compare translations about 11 of them before i reach my conclusion."
You don't have the right skills. Either work at acquiring them . . . or you will always be a sheep.
– – – –
Edip uses his own meanings – they are NOT found in Arabic – and that is dishonest.
– – –
"If you understand islam without dipping your nose into the trash of hadith, then your understanding might be different!"
Classical dictionaries are nothing but Hadith . . . what you are saying is that over 1400 years are wrong . . . . and you are the only people NOW that are right. And that is pure nonsense.
How do you know what the words of the Quran mean . . . unless you rely on the dictionaries . . .
. . . yet they are all Hadith?
Ah – so you are NOT against all Hadith as you claim . . .
. . . . see where your arguments fall down.
"But in matters of truth and guidance you should follow your own reason and be your own prophet. "
It is my own guidance . . . Islam is the truth. Guilty as charged!
"biased, and fabricated."
Where? Link back or quote?
– – –
It not my fault if you don't know what a "News Story" is. Google it.
– – –
"You did the same with another person who provided links. Then you accuse commenters like me of being ignorant. "
If there is a particular debate going on – you have the habit of posting miscellaneous links . . . randomly and for NO APPARENT reason.
Why. . . . what the hell is wrong with you? That is ignorant and and stupid thing to do.
– – –
"Isn't that something wrong with Islam? "
Where in Islam are such actions sanctioned?
And any proof as to the validity of such video. . . especially the "KASHMIR" connection?
" The Qur'an mentions a scenario where women in Mecca publicly challenge the prophet in terms of decisions comments he made and the Quran went further to say the prophet should only be believed in when what he says to them is right."
Where?
– – –
You have very confused notions of Islam. This is what Edip has done to you. When questioned . . . you falter and spew all sorts of non-sense
You have confused sense of what democracy is. It is simply a political system.
"The difference seems to me to be about even such fundamental issues as how to organise society, freedom of speech, deathpenalty for or freedom of apostasy, equal rights before the law of man and woman, believer and unbeliever etc. "
The have nothing to do with it.
– – –
"Therefore when a democratic nation is seen as wrong by some or many Muslims, and an Islamic totalitarian state is seen as wrong by many Democratic citizens. "
These are just your own views what an Islamic state should be. . . keep them to yourself.
– – –
"Can't there be in future a worldwide division of Democratic nations and Islamic totalitarian states? And diverse other states of course. All coexisting peacefully? "
See for you . . . why do there have to be:
"Islamic totalitarian states"
I find these forced projections – to be highly deceptive and dishonest of you.
= = = =
This is exactly what Sina does.
"And if you can’t feel calm unless you have the answers, even if those are fictions, why don’t you pick up answers provided by belief systems other than Islam?? "
Hence you are here for your own purposes . . . yet so cowardly that you have difficulty sating your name and faith.
Like I said – you were indoctrinated with hate of Islam. That is why you appear here to spread hate. . . on the site of one of the most vicious creatures.
"You don't come at the truths that you embrace through rational analysis. You read what your prophet says and believe. This is not a rational methodology. "
It doesn't work this way. . . you have ignored the fact that a person can make the rational decision to choose one world-view over the other.
At the basic level – this come down to belief in God. My brain does not accept that there isn't a God. I have read and constantly read about this . . . the arguments in my mind stack for God. My rational choice. It makes perfect sense.
I don't claim that I have read about every single minute theories and religions – but I have read all major religions. Hence – choosing to "believe" in Islam.
It is only after the acceptance of God . . . that Islam makes sense. Else I accept it wouldn't. You can divide humanity along this line – those who have genuinely thought this through and believe in God or they don't. Then there are the ones who simply follow – for one reason or other – their parents, family or society.
[I have come across hereditary Atheists – those that are only atheists because their parents were]
= = =
"Being rational is about methodology. As a believer, your methodology is not reason but faith. "
One can make the rational decision to follow one particular faith. The basic decision is accepting God.
– – –
"Therefore, even if I am wrong, I am still a rational person because I follow reason."
Wrong – you follow what "makes sense" to you . . . as do I. There is no difference. I rationally choose to believe what I believe.
" And even if you are right you are not a rational person."
This doesn't make sense at all . . . paradoxically incorrect.
– – –
"The believer does not make any rational decision on his own. Such a person cannot be regarded as a rational person even though his actions may be rational."
I didn't become "believer" out of the blue . . . it doesn't work that way. I thought about it . . . hence a rational decision. Generalising that all "believers" are equal in itself is wrong. The very fact that you concede:
"…. rational person even though his actions may be rational."
Shows that a believe still makes rational decision and is still liable for his own actions.
– – –
" A follower, follows another person, a guru, a spiritual leader, a prophet, etc. If what this guru says is rational then the actions of this believer will be rational and if what he says is irrational, the believer will behave in an irrational way."
This goes against what you claim "rationality" to be. What you have said is that all "followers" are irrational . . . irrespective of of the rationality of the "master". That "rationality" is the methodology of working on your rationale. Hence whomsoever chose to "follow" someone else – by this very act is irrational.
– – – –
"These are two opposing concepts. A rational person follows his own reason. That reason can be flawed. Still he has come to that belief through his reason and therefore he can be regarded as a rational person."
Rationality simply isn't believing your own logic. . . . you can invent your own new definition. Or alter what "to be rational" means. But you cannot have both. A follower still has the intellect to make rational decisions – the faculty doesn't go away. He can choose to concede his rationality to the demands of his belief – and you can consciously do that. As long as the "core" belief in God is there.
This argument was tested by Abu Bakr – when they said to him you prophet is claiming that he has been to Heavens and back in one night.
– – –
"Do you follow reason or do you follow Muhammad? You can't do both. You can't follow someone as your guru or guide and claim you are a rational person. "
Both . . . in some matters rationality concedes and in others the religion concedes. Sometimes there is a compromise.
= = =
"You can't follow someone as your guru or guide and claim you are a rational person."
This doesn't work . . .
Knowledge, Trust, Friendship, Love all depend on this. Humans are a bit more than "rational" creatures.
I hate sharia law because it is a very terrible ruling system and 75 percent of it is Non-Quranic. People have abused islam through this sources. The Qur'an mentions a scenario where women in Mecca publicly challenge the prophet in terms of decisions comments he made and the Quran went further to say the prophet should only be believed in when what he says to them is right. This in no way hints Anti-freedom of speech, rather it showed that not only men could speak but women even challenged the prophet and are to believe or agree with him only when they think he is right, This is very contrary to what the hadith books teaches.
Ali, Ali, Ali. Don't you get it? in the world your articles gets so few likes on Facebook and that's really funny, you get a very few number of people here commenting and even trying to reason with you, you a get a few people sending comments and articles to you, but yet you feel you are fighting a true course….Man/Woman you are dreaming! You did not respond to my comments and i stopped getting replies that i subscribed for.
You gave a scenario that the bad muslims are like an ailment in the body and a doctor just removes the ailment without considering the whole body. My response. That is a very weak analogy and to say that, is expressing your ignorance in the medical field. I said in that response that every ailment or cancer is as connected to every part of the body. And the removal of an ailment is largely dependent on the stability of the body system after it removal. Sometimes you have to even rely on the healthy parts to cure the sick part. that is how it works and that is How islam should be approached. Your method does not only concentrate on the bad side it attacks everybody. he unfair thing about this is, You use foul sources and half truths filled with a lot of single stories. I have posted a lot of responses to your comments but i don't get you responding. I need your responses and answers to questions i asked you Man/Woman. And again i will ask you this question…Do you believe in spirit beings????
These are two platforms like being educated in university or in universe. Which is a standard platform for testing another platform.
“If anyone should have hatred towards them, it has to be Atheists. Not only for killing more people than anyone else, but denying the Creator. ”
———
Hatred towards Atheists because they deny the Creator ??? Why should someone be hated just because they deny the creator? Where did you get this idea from? Did you read it in your holy book, or did a mullah tell you this? Why is believing in the Creator so important? How do you even know whether or not there is a creator?
********
"Exactly how did we get here and exactly what happens to us when we die? Someone please enlighten me. What is keeping me alive and why do we die? Exactly what is the formula of death. Why don't I live forever, if matter came from nowhere and just appeared? Is there anything such as a soul, if not, what is it inside us? Why do people die at different ages? Why isn't everyone all dying at the same age?"
————
Just because answers are not yet available for some issues that intrigue people, does not mean that we should pick up any answer, even if it is a lie. Why can’t you just accept that answers to those things are not available yet?
And if you can’t feel calm unless you have the answers, even if those are fictions, why don’t you pick up answers provided by belief systems other than Islam??
They can be as committed Muslims as they like, but only in their own countries. My proposal is to send them back to where they or they fathers or grandfathers came from.
In addition to Reason and Logic – the Golden Rule forms the basic rule by which all other rules/principles can be found out which help the human conduct the best.
The measuring yardstick that Ali Sina and the humanity in general follows :-
THE GOLDEN RULE
Islam does not follow the golden rule.
The Golden Rule and Islam http://alisina.org/the-golden-rule-and-islam/
It is prayed that the internet removes this difficulty.
Yes, you are right.
Just a side thought.
Humans use this with other humans. This is called quarantine.
A separate enclave for them. But then this is how they have spread everywhere. They have their own ghettoes/slums.
When you isolate them and when they withdraw into their slums – they remain committed Muslims as free thoughts become rare in these slums.
When you allow them to mix among you – they will become aggressive.
It is difficult to contain them and at the same time give them access to free thoughts to them so as to liberate them.
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Women in Islam
They have to put up with the other three wives of their husband.
They are nothing but tenthouses – they have to put the abaya and hijab wherever they go. Even at home, they have to put the hijab.
A woman's body is considered by Islam and Mohammad and Islam as nothing but an extension of their vagina (awra). So all the parts of woman have to be covered. A woman loses herself and her identity to Muslim male.
Muslim men can lust. Muslim women cannot lust. Muslim women have to suffer the lust of their males.
Muslim man is always sex ready. Muslim woman has to keep herself ready for action – whenever her husband has arousal. Muslim woman has to keep herself all ready – she may have to satisfy her man's sex lust anytime.
A Muslim woman has no right even to mourn the death of her close relatives – her first duty is to satisfy the sexual lust of the Muslim man.
An example is the marriage of Mohammad to Safiya and Juwariya. Both the women could not even mourn the death of their father and husband who were mercilessly killed by Mohammad.
Mohammad killed the father and husband of Juwariya and had sex with Juwariya the same night. We non Muslims call this rape.
Which woman would not mourn the death of her father and her husband and celebrate their death with sex with her new man???? Muslim logic is crazy
Muslim man can have sex with a dead female body. We non Muslims call this as necrophilia.
Muslim invaders did not spare the body of a dead Hindu woman – the Muslims raped the dead body of Hindu women. So ultimately the women started to burn their body themselves to escape necrophilia of their body.
Mohammad used to put his organ in between the thighs of the 9 year old Aisha. Did Mohammad give his tool as a toy for Aisha to play? Or did Mohammad want his tool to be touched by a child? Did this give pleasure to Mohammad? Wasn't Mohammad a pedophile?
Mohammad had sex with the 9 year old CHILD WIFE called Aisha. We non Muslims call this as pedophilia.
What we non Muslims call as rape – is performed by Mohammad on many women.
What we non Muslims call as child sex or pedophilia – Mohammad did.
What we non Muslims call as necrophilia – Mohammad encouraged and endorsed it.
What we non Muslims call as highway robbery and looting – Mohammad did it.
But then with full democratic rules, including full freedom of speech. And shariah law seems to have a number of clearly anti-democratic laws.
For instance deathpenalty for apostasy. Every citizen should have the right to apostasize from the religion (s)he was born it. And Muslim-citizens should endorse this Democratic principle wholeheartedly. Can they do that?
No I don’t keep Muslims caged. They cage themselves. I just advocate an apartheid between Muslims and non-Muslims so the latter is not harmed. We do this with all dangerous animals. They live freely in their parks and we humans live in our cities.
"1. Who said I personally ignore such reports. . . . where did you get that?"
———–
I don't know if you personally ignore those reports, but here at FFI, when I posted links to news reports, you called them stories, biased, and fabricated. You did the same with another person who provided links. Then you accuse commenters like me of being ignorant.
***********
"2. How does Muslims suffering equal to "something wrong with Islam"?"
————
Watch this video. Here namaz-enforcers are beating up three men one after another, because they skipped Namaz and may have been gambling. Isn't that something wrong with Islam?
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article5767…
Note: Graphic video
“However, I will take my chances. If it is too late for me and I have been a fool for following a cult (Islam), then it is my fault and I will have to face the music for my choice and actions. And it will have nothing to do with you.”
———–
There is not going to be any music for you after death, nor is there going to be any heaven or hell. Before your death however, is a totally different story. If you end up becoming a more true Muslim, which many Muslims end up becoming, then other peoples’ lives and safety will be jeopardized. Your claim that “And it will have nothing to do with you,” is not correct. What if my loved ones are in your vicinity, if and when you become a danger to people? It may very well affect me!
Not to mention that becoming a true Muslim will affect YOU in a bad way too.
"Why is he so hell bent on Islam. What happened to Judaism and Christianity? Or does he think they are not part of the same family as Islam? "
————
Dr. Sina himself answered that question very well. Please read his post below-
http://alisina.org/why-attack-only-islam/
********
"What does Ali Sina use as his measuring yardstick?"
———-
Reason and Logic. He says that again and again, and it is apparent from his writings that he practices it too.
“How can you follow someone who can barely muster up $3600 per annum and then claim to take on a trillion dollar plus movement? This is not David and Goliath, as Ali Sina does not believe in the Bible.”
———
Once again, I do not follow him blindly. But why do I believe most of what he writes? Because he makes sense! Take US/ NATO for example. They get beaten up on a daily basis by the illiterate Taliban. Why? Because they refuse to go by what makes sense. That is why, despite their trillion dollar military might, they lose. Sense and truth is what you should look for in a person or entity, not how much money he has.
*********
“I pay my toilet cleaners more than this per year, and they don't claim anything!”
———–
Your toilet cleaner probably doesn’t know what to claim. A person does not have to have tons of money to make sensible claims.
“You stated in one of your previous posts, that he may not have the kindest of tongues, but his intentions are pure, or something to that effect. Please explain that to me, so I can understand”
———-
I will explain it as simply as I can. You are on the road to Hell (in your Rolls Royce), and he is trying to get you off of that road, even if he can’t tell you which road takes you to enlightenment. He yells at you and uses harsh language, so that you come out of your trance, realize that this is not the road to take, and leave the road even if it means jumping out of the fancy car. Once you are off of the very WRONG road, you can research and find out what other road you want to take.
“Islam might not make any sense to the likes of Ali Sina and his clan, but it makes a hundred times more sense than Ali Sina's way and ideology.”
————
Then find some other belief system. Just because Ali Sina is Atheist, doesn’t mean you have to be one too. There are many belief systems to choose from. You can also combine different things from different belief systems and start a brand new one. BUT LEAVE ISLAM.! Whatever new system you start, do not include the Quran or Muhammad in there!
***********
“If I am driving a Rolls Royce, why would I swap it for a tricycle and then ride it in the Arizona desert?”
———–
Because the Rolls Royce is taking you to HELL, whereas the tricycle is helping you achieve spiritual enlightenment! The issues of life and death that you talked about in your post, do not bother an enlightened person, even if s/he doesn’t have a scientifically correct answer yet.
“Ali Sina is an outright liar. Period. On one hand he says he doesn't fear anyone and then on the other hand he will not expose himself to the public or have a live public debate due to fear of someone attacking him (which we all know is bollocks).”
———-
It is not bollocks! Not having fear is not the same as being stupid. Muslims kill those who insult Islam all the time. In countries like Pakistan, they kill any Tom, ****, and Jerry who says something that sounds like blasphemy towards Islam. But Dr. Sina is no Tom, ****, or Jerry. He has caused serious harm to Islam, by exposing its true nature. Muslims’ faith in Islam is shaken like a 9.0 earthquake when they read his articles. He wouldn’t be safe even in Canada, if a Muslim finds out his identity.
*********
I am full aware that Atheists have killed a hell lot of people. Things become a little more complex though. Those killer Atheists believed in bad ideologies. For example, political ideologies like [various forms of] Communism. It wasn’t their Atheism that made them kill, but their beliefs in, and their allegiance to, such ideologies. Islam too is a bad political ideology masquerading as a religion. People believing in this ideology (Muslims) have killed even more people than Atheists. Please read more of Dr. Sina’s articles, and verify the given information. You will learn a lot.
"So why is it that democracy by itself and its glory – didn't end either colonialism or racism."
The democratic system is not perfect. But it seems to me different on essential issues from the Islamic political system. I can suspend judgment which one is better. I only like to say which one I prefer.
But it would be most gratifying if Muslims as well as Political Correct people at least acknowledged the key differences between the 2.
Once the differences between the 2 can be agreed on by many or most, then both sides can argue for their side and people can choose.
The difference seems to me to be about even such fundamental issues as how to organise society, freedom of speech, deathpenalty for or freedom of apostasy, equal rights before the law of man and woman, believer and unbeliever etc.
Not just about some innocent beliefs that are only of private importance.
Therefore when a democratic nation is seen as wrong by some or many Muslims, and an Islamic totalitarian state is seen as wrong by many Democratic citizens.
Can't there be in future a worldwide division of Democratic nations and Islamic totalitarian states? And diverse other states of course. All coexisting peacefully?
Then it is possible to ask people which sort of state they prefer, can be most loyal to. And then it can be asked of them to live in that state, not in the other one.
Of course it is religious war Alia Sina! As long as all Muslims live in certain demographic areas, then all will be well with you. Keep them caged.
You harper on about Muslims being intolerant, but you have to be the king of intolerance. Any immigrant that has the gall to demand the repatriation of other immigrants based on their belief system needs a psycho-analysis. Seriously, you are one sick dude. The worst thing is, you claim to be Iranian.
Why don't you stand for office in whatever country you reside in and let the people decide. Once they vote you in, make the laws to remove Muslims and see how far you get. Not by the Muslims, but by the non Muslims. They'll have your ass on a plate for being such a prejudicial, hate-mongering racist fascist.
Why you haven't been picked up by the authorities as yet, is mind boggling? However, with the amount of money the Saudis have, it's just a matter of time before they inform the FBI etc and you are nabbed by USA for your terrorist views.
Money talks and bullshit walks.
I doubt your last sentence can hold any weight Julia. We have Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists and cultists in the family and everybody seems to get on just fine.
Sorry to burst your bubble!
knowTheEnemy, my friend. I did not blindly choose Islam. I studied alternative Faiths and Belief systems and accept Islam over all of them. This is my choice and no one is putting a gun to my head to be Muslim.
Ali Sina is an Atheist and is asking his target audience (Muslims) to become like him via proxy. Atheists are a minority in this world, always have been and always will be. Nobody is forcing them to believe. It is a matter of choice. We all walk down the road that we feel comfortable in.
Secondly, why would I want to change anything about Islam, when everything is perfect for me and over a Billion others? When you work for a corporation, you must tow the line and follow the company policies and procedures. If you don't like them, then you can leave or else set up your own company and implement your policies and procedures, if you cannot change the minds of management. This is why we do not do the rejections that you may want us to. Islam is not a shackle for us.
If I want to leave Islam, I would, could and wouldn't give a damn about what anyone says. But I don't want to and never will, despite what Ali and Co say. Just like his ideology and belief in Atheism to me makes no rational sense, he feels the same about Muslims. The feeling is mutual.
I am happy the way things are for me. If I don't play, I can't lose.
What I fail to understand, is exactly how can one person have so much hatred towards a whole set of people? And before he goes into a rant and rave, Atheists have killed far more mankind than anyone else. This is a fact. If anyone should have hatred towards them, it has to be Atheists. Not only for killing more people than anyone else, but denying the Creator. Exactly how did we get here and exactly what happens to us when we die? Someone please enlighten me. What is keeping me alive and why do we die? Exactly what is the formula of death. Why don't I live forever, if matter came from nowhere and just appeared? Is there anything such as a soul, if not, what is it inside us? Why do people die at different ages? Why isn't everyone all dying at the same age?
So, in all fairness, how can we subscribe into a system that is so violent and bloodthirsty such as Atheism, which is predominantly based on Theories? Islam might not make any sense to the likes of Ali Sina and his clan, but it makes a hundred times more sense than Ali Sina's way and ideology.
If I am driving a Rolls Royce, why would I swap it for a tricycle and then ride it in the Arizona desert?
Ali Sina is an outright liar. Period. On one hand he says he doesn't fear anyone and then on the other hand he will not expose himself to the public or have a live public debate due to fear of someone attacking him (which we all know is bollocks). He is not a man of reason, logic, peace, love and harmony. You stated in one of your previous posts, that he may not have the kindest of tongues, but his intentions are pure, or something to that effect. Please explain that to me, so I can understand.
Ali Sina also went onto say that his server costs him $2000 or so per month to upkeep, whilst his donations are only $300 per month. This means that he is always running at a loss. Correct? How can you follow someone who can barely muster up $3600 per annum and then claim to take on a trillion dollar plus movement? This is not David and Goliath, as Ali Sina does not believe in the Bible.
I pay my toilet cleaners more than this per year, and they don't claim anything!
So you see, just like you want to take us out of bondage, with all due respect, I couldn't care less about what you believe or don't believe. You stick to your way and I will stick to mine. We couldn't give a toss about your views and claims as it has absolutely no bearing on us.
Ali Sina wants to follow his own desires and rationale without accountability and wants all Muslims to do the same. Why is he so hell bent on Islam. What happened to Judaism and Christianity? Or does he think they are not part of the same family as Islam?
As Muslims, we can say whether rightly or wrongly that we use the Quran as our measuring yard stick. What does Ali Sina use as his measuring yardstick? Nothing. And please don't insult our intelligence by stating humanity. If that was the case, where did he get it from.
Ali Sina knows deep down what his agenda is and it is only a matter of time before he realises the Truth when lying on his death bed. Which can be said the same for me. However, I will take my chances. If it is too late for me and I have been a fool for following a cult (Islam), then it is my fault and I will have to face the music for my choice and actions. And it will have nothing to do with you.
O thought about this before !
I don't have to fight against other people. You must , it is in the Quran. I can take friends and helpers where ever I want ; you can not ( Quran) ! Etc.Etc. You know all thisi evil very well !
Evil exists everywhere . But this site is about extreme dangerous evil in Islam.
So , stay on topic.
I dont want to hurt anyone, if my words hurt anyone, i dont feel OK, but sometimes i am compelled to use harsh words. I am not here to criticize but to see true colors of the world. I enjoy people making fun of me. If I am not mistaken Prophet was also mocked by pagan Arabs, He was not acting nor was he slave of anyone but of the God.
Military is not about spiritual guidance. It is for defending your country. Obedience to superiors is needed. If you are an employee in a company you also do what you are told. But in matters of truth and guidance you should follow your own reason and be your own prophet.
ALL BOOKS ARE WRITTEN BY (wo)MAN.
Otherwise,show me one which is not .
"ugly reality of Islam". There is NO LOL to it.
Typical a muslim :"The dude has absolutely no credentials in the chosen field he so regurgitates, but you guys have no problem blindly following him? "
A free thinking person does not need any credentials: ALL you need is LOGIC! I am not a slave (of an unproved god or whatever).
I don't FOLLOW Ali Sina, and most certainly not blindly. I think for myself, and in the case of Islam he is often right in my opinion . BUT YOU , YOU MUST FOLLOW,your perfect role model Mohammed, even of your logic tells you something else. Or do you really think that you must not take unbelievers as your friends or helpers , even if it is your family or other good people ? (Just one example 😉 )
"Be your own prophet" is the resolution lol . Let him not to enter any military he will make everyone field marshal !
This is your last warning. I will disable your IP 77.160.29.146 so you can no longer access this site. Stop using multiple usernames and behave yourself when debating. This site is not for spewing your venom. I am tired of your language, and I am tired of you using multiple user names. If you want to comment here don’t be a troll.
Do you follow reason or do you follow Muhammad? You can’t do both. You can’t follow someone as your guru or guide and claim you are a rational person. These are two opposing concepts. A rational person follows his own reason. That reason can be flawed. Still he has come to that belief through his reason and therefore he can be regarded as a rational person. A follower, follows another person, a guru, a spiritual leader, a prophet, etc. If what this guru says is rational then the beliefs of this believer will be rational and if what he says is irrational, his beliefs will be irrational. The believer does not make rational decisions on his own. Such a person cannot be regarded as a rational person even though his beliefs may be rational.
Therefore, even if I am wrong, I am still a rational person because I follow reason. And even if you are right you are not a rational person. Being rational is about methodology. As a believer, your methodology is not reason but faith which you regard as superior to reason. You don’t come at the truths that you embrace through rational analysis. You read what your prophet says and believe. This is not a rational methodology.
LOKI,
You are completely right. What you said is logically correct !
oops! Never noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out.
Alif, Lam, Mim ????? LOL
Destroying evil is a good thing. Even you must admit this simple fact._There are many proofs given that Islam is evil thing. So destriying it is a good thing._Simple logic.
SHUT UP CRAPHEAD !
I know you are transgender with dissociative identity disorder !
DramaticEdem: " …you remind me of the west". THE WEST ? What is that ? All the people of the WEST. We call this generalisation. Stupid muslim.!
DramaticEdem: "…if all muslims in the world where to have the mentality of muslims he constantly describes the world would have been facing bombings and killings every hour and every seconds."
OF COURSE NOT, YOU DR.MORON. BUT THESE LESS VIOLENT oR EVEN NONVIOLENT MUSLIMS KEEP YOUR EVIL AND BACKWARD CULT ALIVE.
Most muslims don't know their own ideology, many think they live a rightious life as "muslim". Many are cowards, just as other people , many are not crazy enough .
Even a muslim doctor can understand this. 😉
Are you deliberate slave? Its not good sign to portray being humble in criticizing.
If you shred your acting layer and say directly what you mean I am certain no one will make fun of you !
You are a real "MUSLIM" DramaticEdem. If you know what I mean 😉
STUPID LOW LIFE MUSLIM. YOU DON'T NOT WHAT IRRATIONAL MEANS!
NO STUPID MUSLIM. THERE IS A BIG CHANCE THAT THERE WILL BE MORE CRIMES OF PEOPLE WEARING BURKA'S!
THAT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND, YOU INBRED RETARD !
"Be your own prophet"
Vs.
"Be your your prophet"
My feathers were removed after my Dabiah and then i was cooked, so no feather left. I can only thank you again. I also dont like any preacher, they are of the more entertainers. I go to sites of other faiths, preacher entertain me. I have been termed as laughing stock by some guys who consider themselves as learned Muslims. You too can make fun of me and enjoy.
You don't define for us what Islam is about. Stupid Muslim. We think for ourselves. WE are no slaves like you, ABDUL.
Your answer is completely off of what I asked you. I asked "How did it feel when Dr. Sina said all those ugly things against Muslims?"
"Rational people are not followers. You are a follower of Muhammad and judge others by your standard. "
Pray . . . lets have an example of a rational person.
Sina – you are nothing but irrational and erratic.
I gave you an example about the misuse, and how Muslims themselves tackled it. Again Burqa is not a static shrine. Others people misusing XYZ is not the issue. I am sure that you cannot give any guarantee for non Muslims or anti Muslim misusing the Burqa. Let us take it further. Say Zionist agent wear Burqa and create a havoc in Muslim congregation. OK, in mosques, female are not allowed as per Sunnis, but what about seminars by Salafis. In all Muslim nations, In Muslim Ghettos or any other place in non Muslim areas of Dar Ul Harb. Burqa can be used to Harm, Muslims by Anti Muslim people. Either direct harm or by defaming. This is happening in practice since long.
"When you ignore news reports regarding suffering Muslims (and those causing the suffering), what does that emphasize? Let me answer that. It emphasizes your refusal to see that there is something wrong with Islam. "
1. Who said I personally ignore such reports. . . . where did you get that?
– – –
2. How does Muslims suffering equal to "something wrong with Islam"? Does seeing poverty and suffering in the West automatically mean there is something wrong with democracy?
= = =
Like I said . . . you come out with badly thought out comments.
My reply was to Dr. Sina, not you! "Be your own prophet" is what he tells people who ask about alternative to Islam.
"You really come out with some idiotic comments . . . this emphasizes his hate"
———-
When you ignore news reports regarding suffering Muslims (and those causing the suffering), what does that emphasize? Let me answer that. It emphasizes your refusal to see that there is something wrong with Islam.
***********
"Dr. Sina uses harsh words, but it is the 'intent' that matters, not the words. "
Right . . . Just remember this line . . . you said it boy!
———-
I stand by it!
Nothing can you guarantee about crimes. People use shrines, churches, temples for crimes. Your fear is irrational about Burka.
No you have closed your eyes with your feather words ! I communicate even with complicated mind ! lol. I said things about preacher !!!
If you want my opinion about Sufism then ping me. I told you in brief that has nothing to do with Islam.
yes, sorry, or LATER.
I Just thank you for your reply.
Non Muslims are often impressed by Sufis and are termed as jokers or laughed upon by very learnt Muslims. I can only thank you again for that. You have opened my eyes.
Tu Quoque. The stupid muslims will never learn to think logically !
Bro,
Please dont take me wrong. Many time I have seen many Muslim brother, ever ready to feel offended. Inallah Ma Sabreen, the God is with patients. I have said that anti Islam or say non Muslims people can use Burka, to commit crime. Can you give their guarantee ?
So,so…DramaticEdem. You were STUDYING hadith ? I'm impressed 😉
So you were studying hearsay. Well, then you must be a real SCHOLAR now 😉
NARRATED….enfin, you know what i mean .
One of Indian professional preacher deepak chopra is also a big fan of Rumi. I had conversation with him few times, he is a joker. Most of Americans also like Rumi.
This has nothing to do with Islam !
So you mean burka is catalyst in crimes ? lol And burka less countries should be crime free ! NYPD have more cases unresolved without burka.
[youtube hidNtJ0hTAE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hidNtJ0hTAE&feature=related youtube]
I am from a Rich family, with no Islamic back ground. My first Income was from the reward I got from our local Iranian embassy, on my explanation of one of the Mathnavi of Maulana Rumi. There are some Hindu saints, who quote Maulana Jalaludeen Rumi
[youtube JFsy8k2bPZ4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFsy8k2bPZ4 youtube]
It should be like that "a western woman" and not "a woman" else it may means that Muslim woman is something different from woman, while Muslim woman is a subset of woman. Only thing Muslims can do is to let all the western ladies(rather all the ladies, Muslims or non Muslims) be forced to wear Burqa, in the Islamic countries. But sometime say some terrorist(Muslim or non Muslim) wearing Burqa carries out attack. How to deal with such hazard ? Leave terrorist, what about criminals ? There is place called Hyderbad in India. I once saw Burqa clad ladies selling movie tickets in black/illegally. I doubted if they were Muslim at all. Anyway after a few days, there was ban from Islamic clerics, on ladies, to visit movie theater, with Burqas.
What can be done, if say atheist criminal wearing Burqa attacks a bank in France with Burqa on face ? Great intelligent learned people from Islam, must discuss this issue/masalah. Just afew thoughts.
In my study of islam in the Madrasa, as it is called in my community. I had started studying hadith and its compilation and i will boldly say i never heard of these two names,maybe i will in the near future, i don't deny they serve important role in islam as you claim, but i think you are blowing it out of proportion. Come to think of it, i am sure Ali sina is aware of the fact that so many scholars compiled hadith with different exegesis or explanations, while some had a very extreme interpretations others are calmer. And you have various factions in the Islamic world following and revering different scholars in the past. Even though its against the Quran they still follow them in their thousands, those who happen to have extreme exegesis definitely will have followers, So Ali Sina what Game are you playing. select just two names and you generalize with your usual single story trick.
[youtube JSIjfnpPCsg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIjfnpPCsg youtube]
MoonShadow – Dont worry, even you will not escape your own Muslim brothers who will see to it that you become a brain dead zombie.
Your analogy of a doctor and ailment does not make sense; i forgive your ignorance because you do not have a medical background. An ailment is as well connected to every other part of the body as much as it is to itself. If a doctor thinks only of the removing the ailment without caring about the healthy body, he may end up destroying the entire system. If only your knowledge of medicine was a bit above the surface, you would know that the human body is a system everything is inter connected, I am sure you will agree with me that it’s the case of Islam. In medicine in most instances, you rely on the healthy part to cure the damaged part. You dont just cut cancer of just like that, you might destroy the system, you rely on the substances produced by the healthy parts of the body to suppress the cancer producing cells! in most instances, when you chop cancer of, You make the system unstable and that is why cancer is a problem till today.
As for saying you claiming to like muslins, i even think you have some of them as friends right? how do you reconcile this your statement;
" I have not issue with all their other sides. I applaud them when they win in sports. I like their songs, dances and music. I enjoy their art and their cuisine. I love their culture. The only thing I am concerned about is their Islam and that is the only thing I talk about."
With this statement in your Debate with one Asadi;
"This Muslim (I find the word "Muslim" very derogatory and insulting. It is synonymous to stupid, barbarian, thug, arrogant, brain dead, zombie, hooligan, goon, shameless, savage and many other ignoble things. I don't know whether this most disgusting word elicits the same meanings in you or not. So when I want to show my despise of someone I call him "Muslim". But because Muslims are stupid, they don't know all these things and they are proud of this name. This is a win/win situation because I insult them and they are happy and thank me for it. Isn't that smart?"
Islam is like gangrene and/or maignant tumors. Others are just benign warts.
I have made my stands very clear KnowTheTruth, i will never be hate driven to utter those words against a group i know 100s of millions are innocent, i only expected that with his level of "knowledge" he should know and talk better. what you say only makes me fear the reactions of some fanatics towards innocent muslims. That he is only telling people a single story of muslims, a single, gory story of muslims who are just the tiny minority. His frequently mentioned community, Pakistan were seen at the Olympics with massive support and winning medals. i have not seen someone ran out of the crowd crying to be saved from the evils of their people. Its obvious Ali sina gets just a single story which he uses to craftily make his point. He leaves the other side of the story, the very positive side of the story and claims to be a real muslim you must accept his version of the single story of Muslims!
One more thing, When you say that Muslims learnt Circumcision from Jews. You are making all Muslims as a lier, who say that Prophet Adam AS, Prophet Ibrahim AS, all were Muslims. Some Hadith tells about Prophet Ibrahim AS doing his circumcision by ax himself. I have learnt from unconfirmed sources that prophet Adam AS, also did this(I may be wrong here) as many more learned Muslims are here in discussion they may say more on that.
My points are :-
The age for male and female circumcision in Muslims be raised till the adulthood and they themselves should decide about it after gaining ample knowledge of Islam.
Muslims are a lost lot. Instead of spirituality, love to Allah SWT, Prophets being a slave /Abduhu of Allah SWT and his imitation in Dhikr done at Hira cave. The Muslims are all around going for ritualism without knowing the message of spirituality and humanity behind it.
If still they are not awaken, there will be many more people like Mr Sina, who will oppose them, and they will find no place to exist. The God is above worldly things. Worldly acts of Deen/Faith and Daula/State, can never lead to Khalasi/Salvation/Libration. How many Muslims follow Hazrat Owais RAZi ? or Hazrat Abu Ad Darda Razi ? Islam has been made a medium of gaining worldly pleasure, in this life and in after life.
Copts may do many thing learning from Muslims, like they use a foreign language Arabic instead of copt, their own.
Circumcision is mentioned in holy Bible, as you have not read it so you say like this, it is talked about in Gospels too. It is rather opposed in new testament as per some views.
It is not mentioned at all in holy Kuran. Hadiths have mentioned of circumcision. As per you perhaps all Imams mean all Salafi Imams. If there is danger to female for circumcision, is it only for female ? why not let boy grow old and have more body resistance power and own will to decide to have it or not.
Anyway for your knowledge, here is the link. http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/aldeeb1/#Rel…
Who is this sugar coated pill?
Take it easy guys……love thy enemy
Religious war you mean Jihad ? If you think shariah is a danger to democracy why can't we come with a solution like implementation of shariah democratically ! I think this will be fair and justified.
There are Coptis (Christians) villagers in Egypt who circumcise their girls also.
Just another fact for you to know.
Hijab,Chador,Shayla,Khimar,Burka, Al-Amira,Niqab are code of modesty for muslim women and these are traditional. What is being projected only Burka here.
I showcased western lifestyle of those only to say thanks who want(??) to help muslim women ! Immorality is reality for them which is called freedom in their sense.
I got username with zero character, banning me will cause insomnia lol
There are so many evil things happening daily in this world and we do not hear
about them in the news. How do you know that this practice is not still in use in
some isolated primitive villages that no one can reach? There are still canibals
somewhere in this world, how often do you hear about them in the news?
Are you sure you have a brain in this ball on your shoulders? Well….your reply
indicates that it is stuffed with straw, therefore, I cannot ask you to please use
your brain because you don't have any.
"This means it is not possible to brainwash anyone over the Internet because over the Internet you cannot control the information that he gets."
Not strictly true . . . many vulnerable youngsters/people do get brainwashed (manipulated by deceptive individuals to conform to their wishes) over then net.
People falling into forums . . . . racism is a classic as are many sexual crimes.
An example – you'll no doubt enjoy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1251…
Problem is what's your problem with that ? lol
Muslims learned circumcision from the Jews. Some Christians start to practice
it, not the orthodox though, because it is not mentioned in the bible
I am not going to respond to the rest of your comment because it is not
realistic. What are you talking about……..cut off the tip of nose……..circumcision
of girls is mentioned in the Quran………what is this hog wash?
All the mosques and the clerics in Egypt are against this practice for girls, and they
are visiting the villigers in their home to educate them about this issue and explain
to them the danger of it.
"But predicting the fall of Islam is not difficult."
Given how much you hate Islam and Muslims . . . one would expect all such predictions.
There are predictions and then there are will theories.
– – –
"When I see that any Muslim that reads the facts, specially my book, leaves Islam"
Why your book? Are you claiming that out of some stunning Western scholarship. . . you are the outstanding one?
A book that is badly written, edited, argued and factually incorrect in many places . . . ?
You really are delusional! Just based on your book . . . which sells that badly – you have to give it away.
– – –
" Your signature phrase "Be your your prophet" can only work with some people"
"?"
– – –
Meaningless waffling – your trademark response.
"Oh well I fear if a Muslims shows up at my door"
Says a lot!
How is " KnowTheEnemy" gratifying to read? Which bits . . . . do point them out?
– – –
"That you, Ali, are of the opinion that humans have choices, comes from the influence of Democratic laws-values, not from Islam! "
So why is it that democracy by itself and its glory – didn't end either colonialism or racism.
The British hold up . . . Churchill as a great example . . . yet despite his many qualities . . . he favoured both?
How easy for irresponsible wrong doers to blame others
for their mistakes.
"How does opposing ideologies that promote hate and violence equate to what I promote?"
Well! It just you claim that Islam is " hate and violence" – not mine. Also concluding from your words. It is YOU who is " hate and violence".
Quit simple really . . . why were you having difficulties?
– – –
" This is like saying law enforcement is the same as crime. Or those who oppose racism or Nazism are just as bad and racists and Nazism. "
Who said you are the "law". . . . again this self-styled title. Like you many other egotistical claims. This doctorate . . . for example.
– – –
" Already in France wearing hijab in public places is made illegal and in Switzerland building minarets is outlawed. This is just the beginning."
Yes . . . of West losing its power. Europe is no longer the economic powerhouse it once was. USA with its monumental debts – will follow soon . . . all the signs are there.
China, India and even Russia is doing well. Global power will shift that way. Military and economic.
Going of USA's war record . . . you will have serious work to convince anyone America has the capability to take on the Chinese.
Every year. . .USA officially used to decry India over Kashmir. The first year they declared that India held "fair" elections in Kashmir was the year they signed a military treaty with the country. A hint!
– – –
"Nearly 20,000 terrorist attacks since September 2001 prove there are a lot of Muslims who believe in this demonic version of Islam and practice it."
Your figures . . . see – the way you turn Muslims as guilty and worthy of being killed . . . then lets take out the Muslim on Muslims. . . . and how many are aimed at your masters?
This is the reason – you have no interest of the figures – which point to the numbers killed by your masters.
Again – very selective in your care . . . you will condemn one side of the same crimes and yet not the other. Hypocrisy?
– – –
"The rest of the Muslims are also involved in the massive jihad, but they work in the deception wing of it. Their job is to deny these terrorist attacks are make in the name of Islam and lull their victims into believing that they are not the target."
Just an excuse to paint all Muslims and without a single exception as guilty . . . . that is hate mongering.
This is why you are lurching about in the pits with this. You couldn't even get a veneer of respectability.
If likes of Spencer or Geller were asked – do they support you . . . they will instantly deny you. And these are your allies!
– – –
"When the truth become wide spread the days of Islam will be numbered. Even Muslims in Islamic recounts will start leaving Islam in droves. "
Well you are disturbed . . . this is beyond goals an dreams . . . what is such mentality called?
There are articles by Ahmadiyas proving that First Guru of Sikh was a Muslim. Sikhs are nearer to Islam. You could see the way Anti Indian Sikhs behave. Like Druze, Ahle Haq, Bahahi, Sikhs too have ejected them outside the Islam. They use term Allah for their God. Sufi movements like that of Hazrat Inayat Khan is on fringe of Islam. Sikhs were sufis, who instead of tolerating the inhuman treatment by bigot Muslims to non Muslims, Sufis and other Muslims who did not endorse bigotry , fought back. Muslims termed then apostate or Mulahid, one who will get more punishment then infidel. Their orders of Udasis are nearer to Yogis, Nirmalas nearer to Vedantic, Sewapanthis near to Sufis, Nihungs near to Shia. Tat Khalsa first came into being when Banda Bairagi wanted to change Sikhism as per Vaishnavism. His sect was ejected from Sikhs and still exist as Bandai Khalsa. There were idols in their main center at Amritsar. Out castes were not allowed there. Arya Samaj justifiably converted them into Arya Samaji. Sikhs worked hard to remove idols to Durgiana temple, Hindus were incited by Arya Samajis to ,let idols remain there. Sikhs proved themselves to be non Hindus and let Idols be out and out caste be in the Golden Temple. Book by Rattan Singh Bhangu before the advent of Britishers mock Hindus and their demigods. Veer Savarkar in his book of Indianization states that it is OK for Hindus to say good bye to Sikhs, At present i find Sikhs working as an agent of pseudo secular government , to oppress the Hindu subjects of India. In past they sided with Britishers to subdue Hindus and Muslims. Their order of Sanatan Sikhs, is
in the way of self destruction.
"So you don't care about what other believe, Hmmm? Well, fair enough but it's then a bit rich to take US to task for not caring about your beliefs! "
huh? Another drunk?
– – –
"Just a short point here. Why do you expect us to provide sources when you never do? You state that Wilders hates Muslims – with no reference. The expression here is “hoist by your own petard”. "
You might have figured this one out . . . I say "might". . . I can challenge someone over what they are alleging to be factual to give references. If I feel that they either making something up . . . or don't really know what they are talking about. I more often right than not.
Others also have that right – and ask for references – if they feel I am making things up.
– – –
Rest of what you came out with doesn't make much sense. Better to use quotes then it is easier to understand.
"#3,4 & 5. Play the ball not the man! "
"!?"
Is there no prostitution in Arabia ? What about belly dancing ? Arab people come to Germany, for night they do marriage with the prostitute and in morning leave her , is it OK ? When Islamist want the right in democracy, for women willing to wear veil /Hijab publicly, What is their problem with free will of women going to pubs or taking prostitution as profession or nude dance etc ? Will they apply the free will logic of women in Arabian nations also ? First let Saudi Arabia allow ladies and gents to renounce Islam. If it could, then demand privilege from west to accommodate Islam. Else Hizrat/immigration is sunnat(deeds to be copied) of Prophet PBUH.
"If Dr. Sina 'hates' Muslims (the individuals), why do you think he makes so much effort to wean them off Islam?"
You really come out with some idiotic comments . . . this emphasizes his hate. And he doesn't make effort to wean anyone.
– – –
"Why does he spend hours day after day everyday, and has been doing this ever since he started the website! "
He spends time spreading hate . . . with ridiculous articles, hateful comments, reading material and twisting it etc.
Where & when does he do this "weaning" – We'll put someone forward as a test case. . .
– – –
"Why does he keep doing all this when all he gets in return is the label 'hater'; the funds that he gets barely cover 20 % of the cost of this site. "
How do you know this? I mean he has revenue streams . . . else where does 80% come from?
– – –
"A little bit of reasoning should be sufficent for a person to realize that far from 'hating', he actually cares about Muslims far more than those so called leaders who pamper Islam, and don't want to utter anything that may give them the label of 'Islamophobe'. "
Ha ha ha ha . . . telling Muslims they are guilty, wanting to see them killed, calling them dirty, scumbags and etc. . . is far worse than being labelled as a hatemonger.
– – –
"Dr. Sina uses harsh words, but it is the 'intent' that matters, not the words. "
Right . . . Just remember this line . . . you said it boy!
"Not sure whether this practice is still in use".
Don't you think if this happened today on a regular basis it'd be in News headlines?
Please do stop and use your head.Many answers will become obvious.
Social backwardness and feudal politics which led to "Sati-Pratha" and it was an Indian Brahmo who stopped it with the help of then Viceroy.It has been a century since.
There have been other evil practices in Indian Hindu society-child marriages,ban on widow remarriage etc. But the bright side is that Indian Hindus have spoken up against it and passed legislation to forbid such social evils.That's how civilizations evolve,they identify the wrongs and eliminate them.
But if I stick to age-old practices,using ludicrous arguments to justify them that evolution will stop.
You meant 'former', instead of 'latter', right?
Sikhism is a branch of Hinduism. The lie that it is a separate religion was started by the Sikhs of Tat Khalsa by the inspiration of the British. See the article "Guru Nanak was a Hindu" by Koenraad Elst.
And on top of that: It is often incredibly hard to distinguish between guilty and innocent people when we are insulting.
Your solution: Do not insult anyone.
Our solution; Do insult everyone if you want.
It keeps coming back to freedom of speech, Edem.
You object so much against Ali Sina, because, logical enough, you think, as many people I know do, that insulting is bad and that it leads to violence or even that insulting is as bad as violence.
But violence: 1. Shortens life, insults do not. 2. hurts, maims bodies, insults do not. 3. violence is close, can often not be avoided, insults on internet-tv, in newspapers, conferences can be avoided. And insults on the streets or workplace, they are harassment and they are indeed forbidden.
You keep comparing insults, hate-mongering, done by counterjihadists, with polite-respectful approach. But that often simply does not work, is easily shrugged off by most. who often see no urgence in polite-respectful protests and claim they have other more pressing problems.
When in Syria people see no other alternative than to rise in violent rebellion it is shown that in Syria insults and dialogue were not allowed. And you should compare 2 reactions to oppression and violence: 1. Violent rebellion. 2. Insults.
The result of insults must be compared with the results of ignoring/ avoidance to respond to violators. Will ignoring/ avoiding violators not motivate them to yet more violence and oppression? Simply because it gives them what they want, it gives them results?
Far from leading to more violence I think non-violent insults lead to less violence.
When somebody hurts you, there are two choices
to react to his insult: the first one is to forgive and forget
it completely, and the second choice is to respond
immediately with the same amount of harm.
It looks like you are a dreamer, and you think that this wild
world of us is a utopia. I don't, and I live in the real world
with my eyes wide open. When you turn the other cheek
do not expect any remorse or regret from your adversary,
the only thing you are doing is giving him/her a chance to
hurt you again.
The polite, respectful behavior has no avail with beasts.
The scent of flowers is wasted among pigs.
Consider Ali, please,
you seem to choose Islam based upon MERITS of it. Based on your assessment of it and comparing Islam to it's alternative ideologies and ways of life.
But consider also, please, that Islam should be really true, and if it is false, it still should not be chosen in the basis of its merits.
Or if you do choose it on its merits, or because of your loved ones, tradition etc. then at least consider that you did not choose Islam out of a genuine search for the truth.
And if Islam is false, there simply is NO HEAVEN like Islam says there is. You should not choose Islam because Islam provides you with a heaven, if Islam is false.
I can't point you to a good afterlife, but Islam may not be a guarantee for that either.
by the way, Ali, you are such a relief, breath of fresh air, as commentators compared to those like Muslim further down.
I thank you for inspiring KnowTheEnemy and Ali Sina to give answers that are gratifying to read, Ali.
There is for me definitely something better on the table for much of mankind THAN Islam. Consider that Islam took off in the 7th century. But in the 17th century and much more in the 18th century new great concepts about society and individual life proliferated and later were practiced. Consider that mankind was way more evolved in the 18th century than in the 7th. So when the new democratic way of life/ organisation of society is compared to the one of Islam and the 2 contradict, isn't it logical that much of mankind embraces the latter?
And yes, later systems can be worse than earlier ones, but we keep talking about the differences between the 2 systems and the on aggregate advantages of the one over the other.
The beauty of the latter is that it really leaves the choice to individuals, whereas the political system of Islam does not, or does this much less. That you, Ali, are of the opinion that humans have choices, comes from the influence of Democratic laws-values, not from Islam!
So there you have it; In politics the democratic systems is the better alternative to Islam.
And your generation must sorely miss Islam, although you can keep the harmless parts anyway, but next generations won't have pain, as they won;'t be brought up in Islam anymore. Only one generation suffers.
Baby can change name, like Mohamad Yahaya to Christopher John. I think Christians learnt about circumcision from holy Bible. Lord Jesus said something about it in New Testament. Churches like Catholic Church has clear cut policy for that.
Say tomorrow we have some pseudo science tells to cut the upper tip of nose, so that unhygienic wax is is not deposited in nose, what are your comments ?
Why did Allah SWT forget to tell about this hygienic thing in Holy Quran?
If you follow Hadiths then female circumcision also is mentioned, Tell are your brothers, who are doing this with female right ? Why dont you condemn them ? are they not undermining women right ?
Are you aware of the sect of Ahle Kuran/Kuran Only, once you know that, you will find a good lot of people not liking their parents deed to chop off their foreskin.
Drinking arsenic rich Zam Zam water is Hygienic ? or applying mud on unprotected genital's fiber muscle after urinating is hygienic ?
So man's foreskin is unhygienic ? So all humans have manufacturing defect by the Mistake
of the God and the God is in capable to rectify? Let us try for the genetical engineering so babies are born without foreskin.
For me Khatna/circumcision has more to do with symbolism of preventing sex outside wedlock. Male organ is the tool of doing sin. When we see mark of faith, before doing sin on tool itself. We desist from committing sin.
Some people claim that circumcision lessen the risk of AIDS, many people in west go for it, just to have security from AIDS, during sex, often outside the marriage.
Very purpose of circumcision defeated. A Muslim, without circumcision and not having sex outside wedding has understood the message of circumcision but not the one who with chopped foreskin and sleeping with the males and females outside the wedlock. Jews know the message behind. Muslims try to bring in pseudo science. Which may defeat the moral issue behind it.
Criticizing Mohammad = Blasphemy
Will the Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere allow criticizing Mohammad?
India has had anti dowry and anti women laws with the reforms begun by Raja Ram Mohan Roy and William Bentick since 1825. Hindu society, which was a victim of Muslim invasion and European colonialism has humiliated like nowhere. Yet, with a sense of improving itself, it has listened to the truth coming out and accepted the truth.
Muslims cannot and will not change their cruel mindset.
Muslims and Christians can take a lesson or two from the Hindus regarding the acceptance of truth.
Keep in mind, it will be the recharged Hindus who will be in the forefront of the war against injustice to the common citizen of the world. Hindus will be the natural leaders.
War against Islam is one example of war against injustice.
Ali, Ali Sina clearly distinguishes between 2 political systems; The Islamic one and the Democratic one.
Let us hope that eventually it becomes quite normal to distinguish between those two, even without judgement of the two.
Let us hope that all or most people in future can know of the essences of the two systems and then choose the society they like most, or can be most loyal to.
So that Democracy-minded people can migrate to democracies and Islamic-totalitarian-state-loyalists can go to Islamic totalitarian states.
Ali Sina has no objection whatsoever if Muslims live in Islamic totalitarian states. But he objects to Muslims, who live in democratic nations, who are really loyal to enemies of the free democratic society, and it's laws and values, that he has come to love.
And I and many others love him for coming to our society, loving it and trying to defend it.
I don’t have any problem with immigration and immigrants. I just want the Muslims to be sent back home. I do this also for myself. Eventually the patience of of our hosts will wear out. I want them to know that the culprit are not all the immigrants but only Muslims.
This is a religious war not a cultural war.
"Yes, some Muslims ignore or deny the undeniable, and they
do not know that this will not serve their case in any way. " Well written!
I understand, I think, what you say about planting carrots and reaping potatoes. I am mulling it over and over.
But MoonShadow; consider what the insults of Islam, Mohammed, and some Muslims are about:
– Exposure of, Protest against deeds of violence, oppression against victims done by Muslims in the name of Islam. in contradiction with laws-values of freedom and democracy.
– Accountable holding of violators themselves or those who support them, or those who ignore wat violators in their own religion do.
Consider that the people of Syria had to rise against a regime that did not tolerate freedom of speech and did not listen to respectful, polite protest.
Most people compares the insults I talk about with polite, respectful behavior, but when violators, if you will, behave bad, and polite, respectful behavior won't stop them, then there are 2 other options:
One is violent rebellion as in Syria. We counterjihadists want to avoid at all costs. Yet polite, respectful dialoque seems not to work.
The other is INSULTING, stinging people into passionate response, into reflecting, reacting and eventually into change.
Compare Insulting violators to help freedom and democracy and victims with violent rebellion against them, not with polite, respectful behavior.
And the beauty is that all the innocent people who get their feelings hurt in the process are in hardly any danger for their lives, their bodies and they can zap away, they can respond in kind.
If only all people could accept that their feelings now and then can get hurt!!!
Dr. Sina, I understand what you mean. But I think, NOT everyone is like you. There are many people who need to be 'with someone'. Many times I have come across Muslims who ask, "Oh, so according to you, Islam is bad! What is better then?" Or as Ali asked "What is the alternative?" Many of these people ask this because they don't want to end up as 'spiritual orphans', if you know what I mean by that term. Your signature phrase "Be your your prophet" can only work with some people; with most it cannot. This is especially true with younger people, who are still accumulating knowledge, and don't yet know sufficient amount of 'truth'.
IMO, the answer lies with what Demsci called "Better alternative to Islam". The only shortcoming in Demsci's formula I think, is that the better alternative is different for different people. This is a topic that needs to be discussed more.
Can a baby ramain without a name until he is an adult to pick the name he
likes?
Circumcision for males only, is very necessary if you care about hygine. It
will be very awkward to circumcise an adult male. As far as I know, none
of the circumcised adult males complained about this simple surgery, and
blamed his parents for it. By the way, some Christians also decide to circumcise
their sons. They learned this recently from the Jews and the Muslims.
Brainwashing can only happen by isolating your subjects and bombarding them with only one idea at the exclusion of all other ideas. This means it is not possible to brainwash anyone over the Internet because over the Internet you cannot control the information that he gets. He can access any information that contradicts yours.
Brainwashing happens in Islamic countries where Muslims cannot have access to any other information other than what the state and the mullahs allow them. Books and sites that are contrary to Islam are banned and any criticism of Islam is severely punished. This is how brainwashing takes place. Muslims are brainwashed. But I can’t brainwash people even if I wanted.
If still not convinced, please Google it and read about it.
I agree! I do have a strong feeling however, that [most] people who leave Islam, should start 'believing' something else, even if loosely. Else, Islam or some other authoritative system will rear its ugly head on the person/ population again, as what happened in Iran, and is currently happening in Turkey.
I am not describing any Muslim. Each Muslim is different. I am describing Islam. Muslims become evil to the extent that they follow Muhammad. Fortunately only a few percentage of Muslims follow him to the tee and that is why most Muslims are not terrorist.
This majority will either become radicalized or will leave Islam in disgust after learning the truth about it and it depends who reaches them first. If the radicals reach them they may become radicalized and if we reach them they may leave Islam.
The Islamic communities have many sides to them. I have no issue with their other sides. I applaud them when they win in sports. I like their songs, dances and music and want more of them. I enjoy their art and their cuisine. I love their culture. The only thing I am concerned about is their Islam and that is the only thing I talk about. You say it is lopsided. That is the only thing I have a problem with. When you see a physician, he focuses only on your ailment. You can’t tell him but doc why not also pay attention to the areas of my body that function well.
I am not here to talk about the good things that happen in Muslim world. I am here to focus on the sickness of the Muslim world and remove it.
Yes there is a big difference between prediction and prophesy. I have not power of prophesy.But predicting the fall of Islam is not difficult. This bubble is going to burst and in my opinion it is going to happen in the coming two decades. could be off by say ten years but the way thing are it is not going to last. Something has to give in.
When I see that any Muslim that reads the facts, specially my book, leaves Islam, I become convinced that if this information become widespread a loot of Muslims will leave Islam. On the other hand the fundamentalism of a sector of Muslim will make the majority of them to despise Islam. This is what is happening in Iran. Other Islamic countries are right behind. Then there is the awakening of non-Muslims. The will put up a wall of resistance against Islam. This wall is being erected as we speak.
I actually don’t think fear is deeply rooted in us. Fear is the product of ignorance. Once ignorance is removed fear will disappear on it own. I can’t say I fear anymore. Oh well I fear if a Muslims shows up at my door, and I fear if in a jungle I suddenly meet a wild animal. Other than that I have no real fears. Once you know the truth there is nothing to fear.
India and Nepal are Hindu Majority nations, their law ban burning of widow with dead Husband. Can countries say like Pakistan ban the chopping of foreskin of children till they grow adult enough to decide about it themselves ? OK what about female circumcision, often done by Malaiki Sunnis?
Now I want Brother Muslim, MoonShadow or aminriadh to explain the point raised by Mr Raj.
When a man dies, Hindus used to burn his wife a live with his dead body.
Not sure whether this practice is still in use.
Personally, I've always believed that Quran is not perfect and
not immaculate……….there are nasty things in it, on the other
hand, it contains lots of good teachings as well.
Yes, some Muslims ignore or deny the undeniable, and they
do not know that this will not serve their case in any way.
your last sentence is confusing, and against the natural laws.
Do not expect to reap potatoes when you plant carrots.
I swear I will do the donkey too much of injustice
if I call you a donkey.
Isn't this subject about the right of women?
Aren't women mistreated in the majority of the
Eastern countries ?
Try to post your comments when you are sober and clean !
The most important question-
"What is he offering as an alternative?"
———-
Dr. Sina wants you to think, study, and research for yourself and find your own alternative based on your findings. I am of a different opinion however. I believe that just as Fear is deeply embedded in the human psychology, the feeling of belonging is also fairly deeply embedded in humans. I am full aware that many people refuse to let go of Islam because they don't want to end up as spiritual orphans- this too is a function of human psychology.
When I realized that I wasn't fully satisfied with sikhism, I let myself be an orphan for a while. I started coming up with my own ideas of God, myself, this world, and my connection with God. It was in these days that I took a class at college on 'world religions', not because I really wanted to, but because I thought it would be the easiest one out of a group of electives that were required. In the class, when we were going over Hinduism, I realized that despite the idol worship, its ideas were very similar to my views of God and spirituality. So I studied Hinduism more intensely, and eventually realized that this is what I was spiritually satisfied with. I also realized that sikhism was no different from Hindu ideas, and all those sikh leaders who said otherwise, were selfish liars.
Now regarding you, have you ever thought of what religion would you have preffered to be, if you were not Muslim? If yes, then THAT is YOUR alternative. If you haven't, then start researching now, see what's your second best preference, and convert to that one.
In that context, watch this video (link below). Listen to the guy's lecture. It belongs to one of the Radhasoami sect. This sect is somewhat like sikhism, and somewhat like hinduism. They believe that the silly looking guy wearing the white turban (you will see him in the video), is none other than God's incarnation on this world. But listen to what he says. And by the end of the lecture, tell me- Did the lecture not fulfil your spiritual hunger? If it did, then what the hell does it matter if they believe in a human God?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmhRn0ClVQo
Note 1: I am not a member of that sect, although this lecture is one of the major influences on me.
Note 2: The lecture starts out slow, but picks up later, and becomes really interesting
No, it does not make this religion any better……
but it will show you that evil exist everywhere,
in you also.
Think about this one !
" what makes him a Nostradamus predicting the future fall of Islam in another 20 years from now? How comes he hasn't won the lottery correctly predicting the numbers? "
————
Lottery is a function of chance. Dr. Sina has never called himself a prophet, and if he had, I would NOT be here. Dr. Sina uses logic and reason to explain things. His prediction about the fall of Islam is also based on reason an logic. For example, let's say I notice that people are cutting down way too many trees, and then I predict that in a decade or two, there is going to be major environmental calamity. This prediction would be based on education, logic, and reason, not 'prophecy'
"And yes, brainwashing does occur in every religion and non religion. Proof is right here with you guys that have been brainwashed by Ali Sina. The dude has absolutely no credentials in the chosen field he so regurgitates, but you guys have no problem blindly following him?"
————-
I do NOT blindly follow him. There are many things for which I disagree with him. For example, his views on Obama and his views on gays. If any FFI'er 'blindly' follows Ali Sina, then s/he is NOT getting his message. If anyone wants to follow Dr. Sina blindly, then here is his message that should be followed blindly: "Use your own brain, and only do what it tells you; nothing else".
Secondly, I don't care whether he has any credentials or not, I believe what he says because not only he makes sense, I actually see Muslims doing things based on the 'profile' of Muslims that I have, based on his information. I have listened to many people who have 'credentials', and mostly have been disappointed.
i have been in islam, i have traveled a journey through it and i know ali Sina is telling a single story, if all muslims in the world where to have the mentality of muslims he constantly describes the world would have been facing bombings and killings every hour and every seconds. His favorite community which he gets his case study from Pakistan were seen at several sports at olympic today with massive representation, so his exaggerations about those community are also a one sided story! . i have been in sun-ism i have seen those things he describes. i have watched muslims kill heartlessly, i agree with Ali Sina stories but the truth is their are good majority of muslims who would not even lift a finger to hurt anyone. They also got these attitude from the Quran. this definitely means Ali Sina is telling a side story.
You make multiple different points in your comment, so I am going to respond separately. And I also want to thank you for taking the time to discuss openly about what you think and how you feel.
A robot only does ONE set of things – the one that it has been programmed with. It does not have a choice to follow anything other than the set of instructions that it is programmed with.
Let me ask you this! Are YOU free to do things in a way other than how Islam requires you to? Let's say you decide Islam is not for you; Does Islam give you the freedom to leave this faith? Let's say you decide that the black stone at the kaaba shouldn't be there. Are you free to reject its importance? Let's say you decide that women should stand alongside men (instead of behind them) when they pray in the neighborhood small mosque; Are you free to start a new system where women stand equal to men? Let's say you decide that in order to pray to Allah, you don't need to involve Muhammad in there; Are you free to leave him out of your prayers?
If not, then wouldn't you be a robot??
I doubt that you are a westerner……and I bet you are an
under-blue-color laborer for those people you are talking
ill about, this is the only justification for your grudge.
At lest those people can afford to buy computers and
everything, including you and your people…..
they might put their bottoms up 5 times a day, but they
kick your bottom 100 times a day!
You can find this oldest profession in the most religious and
strict society. Also, the most free societies have no appreciation
or respect to the social and professional wh———res
Please do not jumble the freedom and rights of women
with immorality.
And how did you feel when he said that??
@ Loki – nice answer there.
I liked this sentence most.
// Can you tell us why Muhammad fought his wars – to spread his religion among those who thought his religion was bullcrap and told him to keep his lunacy to himself? //
@ Vijay –
the world would be a better place without Islam.
What would you call a person who had sex with a woman on the same night he killed the woman's father and husband? What if that woman happened to be your daughter? What if that woman happened to be your wife?
Respect and niceties apply to civilised humans and not to beasts. Mohammad was a beast.
@ Muslim –
Know your Hinduism better.
Shri Krishna, advises Arjuna, ON THE BATTLEFIELD – to fight the unrighteous.
It is the hour of battlefield – the fight. Many many talks had taken place earlier to dissuade the quarreling parties to desist from fight.
Sri Krishna himself was the peace envoy. He came in to meet Dritarastra and Duryodhan to give a message of peace. Instead of the whole of the kingdom – what he asked was just five villages – for the sake of peace – for the Pandavas.
All routes to peace were exhausted. The Kauravas did not allow any route to peace. Sri Krishna left no stone unturned to seek peace.
The Kauravas were evil, just like Islam and Mohammad and Muslims are evil. The Kauravas only wanted violence and fight and wanted to take away other's properties and wives. The Kauravas were unrighteous, as is Mohammad and his Muslim thugs.
Fighting was an unavoidable last resort. When both the armies had taken their place and were waiting for the battle call – it was at this time that Arjuna had this weakness of mind.
Sri Krishna, told him to fight. Fight because it was not a peace park. But it was a battlefield and Arjuna had to fight the unrighteous.
Now, use your verse in the above context.
The Pandava/Kaurava war was not like the dastardly act of the 9/11 Muslim attack.
The rules of the war were followed.
Then so is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Atheism, Communism and every other way of life known to mankind, Raj.
They are all gangrene. Let's start the amputations. You can lead by example with your ideology first.
That is what we call a robot in this part of the world knowTheEnemy. Humans on the other hand have choice.
And yes, brainwashing does occur in every religion and non religion. Proof is right here with you guys that have been brainwashed by Ali Sina. The dude has absolutely no credentials in the chosen field he so regurgitates, but you guys have no problem blindly following him?
As I have asked so may times, what is he offering as an alternative and what makes him a Nostradamus predicting the future fall of Islam in another 20 years from now? How comes he hasn't won the lottery correctly predicting the numbers?
Judging by what I have seen and read of Ali Sina and his ideologies over the years, I'll take my chances with Islam!
He clearly stated that muslims are underdeveloped species and don't deserve to live. What hate is more than that?
How comes you haven't gone back to your country of origin Ali Sina? You are no different to the people you so despise.
Who are you to suggest people be sent back when you are an immigrant yourself?
It is you that needs to be banned and classified as an illegal creed, as your views, comments, methods and ideology are a danger to all humanity. Period.
Muslim, wasn't Japan in 1941 underestimating the reaction of America? Even the leading admiral (Yamamoto) said after Pearl Harbor: "I fear we have awoken a giant".
With hindsight it was crazy of Japan to start the war with much stronger America. But the Japanese thought that Americans were decadent and divided and so they hugely underestimated their response. But when in a Democracy finally the majority supports a massive war effort, a Democracy can be very strong!
There is a controversy there as well.Some scholars say all forms of music are banned.
Some say only instruments are banned,singing is okay.
I was listening to a Bangladeshi Imam,he said only songs which are dedicated to allah are allowed.You can't sing for your loved one etc.He compared the members of Bengali Rock Bands(they have an audience in Bangladesh) to dogs!Why?Because they wore bracelets on their wrists,a woman's dress according to the revered Imam.
Copied from "http://www.angelfire.com/journal/wrote/Awake5.html".
No wait! Hamza Tzortzis,Yusuf Estes and Zakir Naik are paid for stupidity and juvenile work.
I was wrong.
You have a good chance of getting paid from the other side.
All you have to say "Masallah! Muhammad Peace be Upon Him was a great man.Blah blah..evolution..blah..blah..earth is egg shaped(duh)..blah..Christians take it out of context.. blah.. blah.. Surah like it…blah..blah..Quran is perfect book… blah.. no mistakes.. blah..full hijab..blah".And you'll find a bunch of delirious idiots and paid faces incessantly clapping, bewildered by your logical fallacies,blatantly wrong facts and poor jokes(some of them are so boring that it's sad)".
This is one of the most lucrative professions.Try it!You don't even have to be good speaker.Present life and afterlife,both will be secured.
"Most of it are lies about the prophet and Islam"
How do you know?
Were you born that time?
Have you studied the original manuscripts, or observed their authoring dates to ascertain if the people quoted could have made accurate comments about Muhammad's life, or read the history and motive of the people writing the hadiths to come to this conclusion?
Ignoring the hadiths is easy, saves you a lot of effort. But don't you feel inside that you're being dishonest? Without the hadiths, some Quranic verses can never be understood.
"But if i get paid as he does I may handle this"
No one gets paid for stupidity and copying others' works.
Stop trolling.
Say something original.
Do you have a clue about women in Islam?
Don't seems like it because you're a plagiarizer!
Copying other websites and dumping that here.If you get memory for free please dump it in your personal computer.And excuse us by giving the links instead of pasting in entirely in here.
This and a number of other comments of this user is a lift from another source.
I suspected this because when this user comments in his own words elsewhere, his English has basic grammatical mistakes of Tense and Punctuation.His English here was almost impeccable.
Hence I searched and found these articles:-
"http://www.islamfortoday.com/womensrightsbadawi.htm"
"http://www.soubhanaka.byethost8.com/English_Status_Of_Woman_In_Islam_2.htm"
I ask the writer,if you are using entire website articles as your arguments,can't you simply provide the links acknowledging the original author and build your own arguments instead of plagiarizing others'? This makes the comments section unnecessarily loaded,and conversations difficult to follow because you have a story to copy paste.
I ask Ali Sina,why is this blatant intellectual dishonesty allowed here?I think such commenters deserve at least an warning.These are ignoramuses pretending to be theologians.Or are you offering these as free extra articles in the comments of your articles?
I apologise for my vagueness.
But I can assure you that I am in favor of something positive; freedom of speech and autonomy of the individual man AND woman everywhere, in the 21st century. And I am sure that Ali Sina and many counterjihadists are allies with this positive goal.
They point out what Mohammed/ Islam says and aims for. Out of concern.
But then get reactions of complete denial, that ignore the obviously undeniable parts of their complaints, while they get accused of being only motivated by hate, or money.
But the way to diminish the protests of so many counterjihadists is for Muslims to at least acknowledge and validate the undeniable parts of what counterjihadists are saying
And admitting that something is wrong in the teachings and practices of Islam or that the teachings and practices in part simply contradict freedom of speech, autonomy of women, and some democratic laws and principles.
And then let us go from there.
But I hate the denial or ignoring of the undeniable by so many Muslims and
I say so-called hate-speech, on internet, tv, in newspapers and conferences, is completely within democratic law,
has good, even violent-reducing consequences instead of violence-inciting conseguences.
Violent reactors are themselves to blame for their reactions, not people who say insulting things, in internet, tv, press.
Can't exactly the same arguments be put to what you are saying?Maybe you are the one who has been fed the one story of Islam!!And when you see the truth,you'll drop it like a bad habit?
Ali, shouldn't you ban this nonsense?
Ali, if you really want serious discussions,ban those who copy and paste entire pages in these forums.Instead of doing that they can just give a link to the website they are referring.Saves space and reading effort.
How can a page of pre-written material be a discussion?
I understand if someone has to use some other data for building his/her arguments.But when the entire argument is a page from another website,I don't see the value of typing the whole text here.
I like it when you quote and you make a point to mention the originators of these teachings to be humans and not the Quran, i know upon reading this you will almost jump to Quote Quranic verses, which are either mistranslated or misunderstood to prove these scholars got their backing from the Quran. This is never true for islam. I stay in a predominantly Islamic community and non of these happen. I do know you have a scape goat community which is Pakistan and Afghanistan and the likes, the characteristic blue covering is with the people of that community. but you are a crafty lair!
You remind me of the west and the tricks they play when they come to Africa, they cover stories and pictures of a very negative, suffering and dieing Africa, they create images of a group of humans who have just evolved from apes. In all they create just a single story of Africa. his was evident recently when we had some exchange program with student from Denmark, when they arrived, they told me they were really surprised at what they saw. They told us they were surprised to see the High buildings and well dressed people in Africa, one of them admitted they taught people still lived on tress in Africa. You know what Ali sina, these young students were victims of a single story. So many people on your website would also be victims of single story about islam. it beats my imagination how some people still have these stories about Africa even in these modern times. so goes to you Ali sina, your one sided version of islam, and you are lying mortal similar to those who spread a single story about Africa in the west! You go with the one side that makes you create a monstrous picture you buttress your point with sectarian, misogynistic and a belligerent minority amongst muslims to justify your one sided story. You may seem to be succeeding at first, but your supporters would drop like you hot when they realize your tricks. ……..To be continued
You want to play the victim by drawing all muslims into this,including kids.You're a liar and a disgrace.
This is not about muslims,it's about Islam.and also about those muslims who kill civilians visiting a market hoping that'd let them enjoy 72 virgins in paradise,those muslims who try to spread Universal Islam by dirty politics,violence and threats,those muslims who think they have the license to kill someone for writing a book or making a movie,those muslims who think they have God-given right of stoning or lashing a woman because she committed the 'heinous' crime of 'loving' another man,those muslims who justify killing a person just for saying openly that he thinks Muhammad is not that great,those muslims who think that any girl who doesn't cover from head to foot is immoral and hence her dignity can be robbed,those muslims who insult national symbols publicly while living in the same country.
We are the victims,you aren't.So don't pretend you're the victims when you are the violator.
live in your desert sH*thole and who wants you to come out there..the computer, the internet you are using is also product of western civilisation and you and your people did not help creating it by putting your bottom up 5 times a day!
What can we expect from a madrassa educated!
Loki is right! Music is banned in Islam. When true Muslims (Taliban) ruled Afghanistan, they used to stop taxi drivers and break their casseste tapes and players. So if you really think Islam is going to win, then learn to live without music.
Julia, Esther, I told you before you even came here that this is a more professional site. As Dr. Sina has warned, he WILL ban you for continuing to use multiple names. Sign up with intensedebate (link at bottom of page) and use one name. When you sign up with intensedebate (like I have), then you don't have to sign in again and again. It makes things much easier.
Didn't Mo ban music?
New kind of petro-dollar funded pseudo-terrorism?
there has to be less of brainwashing…well go and get the voting right for arab women first than talk about Korea.
what an insane person and what a dimwitt.
Here we talk about how to eliminate something evil called Islam, if you can contribute to that meaningfully, talk about it, or take a long walk on a short space.
Daily news that proves Muslims treat women better than anyone else-
Pakistani wife gunned down in court by her brother over honour issue. The brother is a Lawyer.
Daily news that proves greatness of Islam-
Proof that Muslims treat women better than anyone else-
Pakistani wife gunned down in court by her brother over honour issue. The brother is a Lawyer.
Proof that Sunnis are better than Shias-
Sunni Muslims Committed 70% of Terrorist Murders in 2011
Sorry sir, i accept my Mistake about Jainism, but if you talk about Tirthankar Mallinath, the direction clad Jains deem him as male while white clad claim her as female. I saw his statue as that of male. I am sorry again.
“Which equals to whatever confused ideology you are promoting. Indiscriminate Hate against on particular group of people.”
Do you have comprehension difficulty?
How does opposing ideologies that promote hate and violence equate to what I promote? How can wanting to stop an ideology of hate be the same as that very ideology? This is like saying law enforcement is the same as crime. Or those who oppose racism or Nazism are just as bad and racists and Nazism.
Don’t pretend that you don’t understand. Or perhaps you really don’t understand, which is even worse.
In any case Islam must be stopped. Once we have enough people who come to see the danger that this evil cult and its brain dead adherents pose to them new laws will be passed to make Islam illegal. Already in France wearing hijab in public places is made illegal and in Switzerland building minarets is outlawed. This is just the beginning. The more people are awakened the more we will chose the throat of Islam. Even hard core liberals like Eric Allen Bell are seeing the light and sounding the alarm bell. It is just a matter of time to declare Islam a subversive political movement and ban it.
“it is HIS personal demonic version of Islam . . . which not even 1 Muslim on Earth practices.”
Nearly 20,000 terrorist attacks since September 2001 prove there are a lot of Muslims who believe in this demonic version of Islam and practice it.
The rest of the Muslims are also involved in the massive jihad, but they work in the deception wing of it. Their job is to deny these terrorist attacks are make in the name of Islam and lull their victims into believing that they are not the target. This is exactly how Muhammad conquered his victims. He deceived them and raided them taking them off guard. That coward never fought a clean fight. His wars were called Ghazwa and Saria which mean raid and ambush. In other words terrorism.
“If this isn’t total hate . . . I don’t what is.:”
Of course it is. Anyone who does not hate Islam is either ignorant or evil. All good people must hate Islam.
“Yeah right . . . something that will never happen. ”
Never say never. Banning the mosques and hijab are first steps. Who would have thought that would happen a decade ago? More is in store. A lot of people have to be educated. This can’t happen overnight. Once more people see the treat they will elect governments that will promise them to deal with the treat of Islam. Your terrorist buddies are helping us to do that.
When the truth become wide spread the days of Islam will be numbered. Even Muslims in Islamic recounts will start leaving Islam in droves.
IMHO, these are creation of latter Muslims, to make their faith more staunch. At present most will anyway defend these acts.
Ali sina who is using multiple user names ? Not me you got my IP address you can know I’m always from the same location … Or are you lying again bro ?
WE ALL SEE THAT YOU ARE A REAL EVIL MUSLIM…"MUSLIM ".
That is clear. Hiogh and mighty, and sooooo smart !! Man are you smart…Hahahahahaha !!!
You are a shame on humanity. 😉
Suicide yourself for allah….please. Everbody happy 😉
[youtube eLFW—YSWE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLFW—YSWE youtube]
DON'T FEEL ANGRY, Vijay !
BUT YOUR EVIL FAKE prophet mohammed never forget bad words against him !!
SO HE SURE would have felt humiliated. He killed many poets who said bad words against him.
Some examples:
1. After the battle, the prophet queried, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" That night, Salim b. Umayr "went forth and killed him." One of the Muslims wrote a poem in reply: "A hanif [monotheist or Muslim] gave you a thrust in the night saying / ‘Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!’" Muhammad eliminated him, which shows religious violence. Islam is not the religion of peace.
Source: Ibn Ishaq p. 675 / 995.
2. "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?" A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep.
Source: Ibn Ishaq, pp. 675-76 / 995-96.
You have been using multiple user names. i will block you if you continue doing so. This site is for serious discussion not for childish games.
We will see soon. ! 😉
Yeah, man…try to be cool. But first you must bang your crazy head against the floor.
Or don't you do that ,5 times each day, as a low-life slave should?
Good night , I hope the devil does not seep in your nose or piss i yout ear ! Hhahahahahahaha!!!
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May Allah Save His/her life for Razia is trapped in goons
Allah Bachaye Iski Jaan Ke Razia Gundo me Phas Gai[youtube 6ZNypKPmoBg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZNypKPmoBg youtube]
If Hindus start to follow Lord Krishana and all of the Hindus, do you want them to know there faith and follow it too ? Bro Muslim, as per there faith, they will first remove all the Muslims from Indian Sub Continent. They deem black stone of Holy Qabba as their Shiv Linga. You are motivating them to attack Muslims. I doubt you to be a part of Zionist mosad, rising Hindus against the poor Muslims of the world over.
Bro Muslim,
you sound like true Holy Warier, but you have terrorized all the infidels with your statements. Your grit is superb . Tell me more about your plans, what else you plan to do, to let these infidel pigs, clown go to hell.
Rest of all, please listen to great cyber warier and his imaginations of the situations after his supposed win. Did prophet PBUH thought you war at all ? But for me Islam is peace, which ends the war. No one can destroy fire by fire, one war cannot end another war. In past there were Jews, Christians and Pagans in Arabian Peninsula, with war, they were removed. Now we have Shias verse Saudi Wahabis. War brings more war.
Please tell me what good words can be used for a person who keeps and shares women war captives for enjoyment of himself and his companions?
Please tell me what good words can be used for a person who sees a 6 year old naked in his dreams and then marries her?
Please tell me what good words can be used for a person who marries his daughter-in-law?
"That is true. i am opposed giving freedom to ideologies that promote hate and are supremacists and want to dominate others."
Which equals to whatever confused ideology you are promoting. Indiscriminate Hate against on particular group of people.
– – –
"That is why Islam must be banned and declared an illegal creed. I support closing down the mosques. If any Muslim is caught in anti democratic activities, even in promoting Islam subversively, he should be sent back to his country of origin. As for the rest, they should be reeducated and weaned from Islam. The media must educate the public about Islam. Since Islam is a lie, the only way to stop it is to tell the truth about it. "
There you have it . . . he simply wants to promote whatever he believes in . . . it is HIS personal demonic version of Islam . . . which not even 1 Muslim on Earth practices.
If this isn't total hate . . . I don't what is.
– – –
"But I advocate taking strong measures against the spread of Islam. Banning Islam as a subversive political ideology that is hostile to democracy and shutting down the mosques, are constructive steps in eradicating this evil doctrine. "
Yeah right . . . something that will never happen. You are a hate monger. You always will be . . . squashed somewhere running this petty hate campaign.
You have already said – where Islam is concerned – telling the truth doesn't matter. . . adding this. It says a lot.
You miss one thing-why was the war fought?
Because a woman was degraded in open court.The Mahabharata war was to restore honor of one woman – Draupadi.The Ramayana war was also fought because a crime was committed against a woman- Sita.She was abducted by a king.People who wrong women are liable to be punished and those wars were just because the wrongdoers refused to apologize.There is no second version of the reasons to these wars.If you really want to discuss Hindu mythology on an Anti-Islam site,first read something.All the erudition you've displayed is quick copy-paste from unacknowledged sources.
Can you tell us why Muhammad fought his wars – to spread his religion among those who thought his religion was bullcrap and told him to keep his lunacy to himself?
Watch out. Run! this muslim is becoming violent.
NO I’m not going back ….lol I’m going to bed….I’m tired of nonsense of these goons…They come and go like never existed so what the hell i go to go to bed better…
adios amigos.
arrivederci.
"I knew the answer to his question, so I answered it. Nothing wrong with that!"
Its the way you went about it. The strong DENIAL. It said a lot. . .
Way too patient.
Get a life bro.Learn some English.Or write in your language and get it translated.There is a translate option in Google.
Whatever you write yourself,except what you copy and paste to waste space,is extremely unreadable.You can simply give a link to the website from where you are copying,instead of wasting additional space here,right?
@Esther,Ali sina , or anybody else who is claiming that they are going to destroy Islam…That’s itself is laughable…You can tell and feel how disparate…Threating,swearing,screaming and no reasoning at all.All what you want to do is destroying Islam and Muslims…I can’t give you a description better then a blood suckers …inhuman why don’t you nuke all of us…Kill all kids and babies…all men and women burn everything and get red of us…If that can make you happy Go a head and do it…if you got the guts but be sure we are going to fight you like a one man, we are going to defends our kids,our moms and our wives….we are going to defend our honor…And we will break you into pieces…Because we got the will and we just have to clean our house and we can do it.
But i guarantee you with us you are going to have a fair fight,not like you cowards fight.
Islam taught us how to fight
– If we overcome you and you ask for peace we will guarantee you that.
– Don’t burn hoses,nor buildings.
– Don’t kill animals,or pollute the earth…( like you already did )
-Don’t burn the grace,nor trees…
– We fight man to man till death,and we defend our honors and our faith.
Be sure of that my friend…But what can i say the moon is far away from barking dogs…So bark my friend….and i repeat You are just wasting your time A man who dares to waste one hour of his time has not discovered the value of life.
You are stupid enough you can’t even understand what is the simple thing about life…Let me teach you a little bit.Life is the first gift, love is the second, and understanding the third,and We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from it…
You are looking to take a human being away and you swear it is coming hahahaha Fantastic,carry on…That’s a smart…Bravo and good Job Sina…Now you just can sit back and enjoy what your plow,you created real killers who are ready to suck kids and innocent blood…Which makes the gap wide open between us and you all…
How can i love you when i know you want to nuke me ? 1st of all you don’t know what love is if you do you won’t say a thing . Allow me to teach you another thing.Love doesn’t make the world go ’round; love is what makes the ride worthwhile
and death is not when a body lose vitality but when one ceases to love life…war is not harvesting the enemy but how to avoid another war…
You are wanting and creating and firing to a real war that will end no one alive .
I’ll be right back.
No one can be more perverted than an oldie having wet dreams of a six year old child,then marrying her,and then raping her when she's 9 years old.You call this pervert to be the best man to have walked on earth.With that background,what are you even saying about others?
How many Hindus follow Manu Smriti?How many muslims think that "Muhammad the sicko" is the ideal man to be followed?
Imrana rape case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imrana_rape_case
Even Mohammad lusted after his daughter in law. Just like how Imrana's father in law lusted after her and raped her.
The Muslim scholars then asked Imrana (after her rape) to consider her husband as her son.
Even their religious school which is held in high esteem throughout the Muslim world – the Deoband seminary – endorsed the same argument of the Muslim scholars.
Even if I assume your claims about other religions are correct,do you realize that repeating these don't make the problems of Islam go away?You haven't responded to any of the points raised in this forum,have picked a few verses in isolation,copy-pasted some apologetic work and pretended as if the dark verses aren't there.
A key difference between followers of Islam and other religions is that almost none of the latter follow their texts literally.And they do themselves and other a lot of favor by not doing so.Most muslims(except a section of muslim scholars) who have taken the pains to study Quran,do follow it literally.That creates a social risk.Even today,prominent Islamic speakers openly say that the woman's place is within the four walls,speak lowly of women who have achieved success in diverse disciplines thus creating bad examples out of them.And this is in democratic countries!Imagine how their speeches in Islamic countries are-don't allow women to visit markets,beat them if required etc.
Islam – religion of a criminal and a perverted prophet
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/sexual-perv…
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/sexual-perv…
having sex with dead wife is allowed in islam ( necrophilia ) !
http://www.faithfreedom.org/videos-features/havin…
Dear Bro Muslim,
As you see that when Mr Raj uses bad words for prophet PBUH, i first feel angry, then remember that had prophet been present and listening to Mr Raj, should he had anger for Mr Raj or compassion ?
Read UNDERSTANDING MUHAMMAD AND MUSLIMS by Dr Ali Sina
Comic strips of Mohammad.
http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/comic-strip…
The Prophet of Islam exposed
.http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/index.html
If Mr Sina says that leave Islam and join anything you want. He is talking of liberal democratic values. You are not mad and i am insane. Happy now. Please dont be angry with me. Sometime i think that many people posing a Muslims are at the payroll of Zionists and indentionaly post the clumsy replies to Mr Sina, to show, Islam in bad light. May be Mr Sina and most pro and anti Islam posters are at the payroll of Zionists. They are all doing the drama to put Islam in bad light.
Well then don't come to the west! Stay in your Islamic heavens. Simple!
"1st lie: "slay the unbeliever, even though the unbelievers have done nothing to Muslims"
Islam never teach this kind of behavior and you know it… provide the verse to see what does it say exactly. ( we went through that many many times in your old site with your followers )"
—————–
If you have been here THAT long, then you already know which verses those are! We are not going to waste time posting those again.
**********
"We Muslims we give you a warning too, if you attack us of course we are going to defend ourselves with all what we got… You got your belief we got our belief …"
—————
You are LATE! Your terrorist brothers have already been bombing/ attacking non-Muslims using exactly that excuse, for decades. And they learnt this deceptive trick from Muhammad
Raj…I told you you are either an idiot or stupid or you don’t know what you are talking about…
Hindu members of this forum should stop their mouth forever. Either they have no idea about their own religion or they are some bunch of hypocrites.
Lord Krishna orders Arjuna to fight, kill and get war butty; and that’s an open door to heaven!!!
The Bhagavad Gita Speaks
“It would be far better for me if my cousin brothers kill me with their weapons in battle while I am unarmed and unresisting.” (1:46)
“Lord Krishna said: How has the dejection come to you at this juncture? This is not fit for a person of noble mind and deeds. It is disgraceful, and it does not lead one to heaven, O Arjuna.” (2:02)
“Do not become a coward, O Arjuna, because it does not befit you. Shake off this trivial weakness of your heart and get up for the battle, O Arjuna.” (2:03)
“Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver like this. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war.” (2:31)
“Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven.” (2:32)
“If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin.” (2:33)
“You will go to heaven if killed on the line of duty, or you will enjoy the kingdom on the earth if victorious. Therefore, get up with a determination to fight, O Arjuna.” (2:37)
Although there are dozens of more such verses could be quoted but I think that’s enough to stop their mouth.
O Muslim , leave behind your RAPIST AND RASCAL RASULLULAH
Do not hold the brief of this rapist and thug.
Instead leave Islam and embrace humanity. You are invited to become a member of the civilised human society and requested to leave the evil Islamic religion.
You are in an indefensible and unenviable position. It is we who are having the last laugh. It is said the one who laughs last has the best laugh.
Have you been molested? I am sorry !
In the examples you gave,two were from major texts-Old Testament and Guru Granth Sahib.Ramacharitamanas is a minor text for Hindus,and I doubt if the number of Hindus who think women are similar to animals 'because it's written in Ramacharitamanas' would even be in double digits.I don't know any Hindu who even follows Vedas literally.Neither should anyone.
Hindus have never been hardliners,although today that population is increasing in India to counterbalance the rising fundamentalism in muslims.Like rise of Ultra-Leftists to counterbalance decades of rightist policies.It's social mathematics.
These books were written by people centuries ago who knew a lot less than those who live today.Hence we shouldn't take any 'truths' out of them at all.Coming to morals,we know that no society can progress without contribution from half of its population.To maximize the benefit for the society,she should have the same opportunities to identify what she's best in and pursue that-instead of just sitting at home and raising babies.
BE SURE OF IT "MUSLIM" , THE WEST IS GOING TO DEFEND ITSELF !
BE SURE OF IT.
BE SURE OF IT THAT ISLAM WILL BE DESTROYED; ONE WAY OR THE OTHER !!
We have beem very,very patient with Islam .
Bro,
When did i said that I am a Muslim. I have seen many people claiming to be Muslim. If Islam mean surrender , Muslim is one who surrenders to the God, with no self ego left. but these "Muslims" have a great ego of being better then rest pf humanity. If Islam is peace, Muslim is one who follows peace. Present day so called "Muslims" are far away from peace, themselves deprived of peace and depriving others of peace.
As this is holy month, and your mind will be aligned to beloved lord of the universe(Rabbul Almin) and his slave(Abduhu), you have not got my point. I will not either try to put it again. Read my point again. OK i agree that i am stupid, pig, funny. Happy!, I have smoked Dhikr/Meditation today. I have been intoxicated with that wine, which is name of my lord.
Logic of Mr Sina's site is to prove that Islam is unfit to present day democratic system of the world. It is simple. as you confessed that he is succeeded to confuse you. Dont worry, after Salat read Ayat Ul Kursi and understand it. Truth can be realized only by the one, whom Allah SWT wants to realize.
We all are under the control of The God, The God is the ring master and we the clown.
You must be on something man….Ali sinner he himself said leave Islam,and choose whatever you want he has no problem with other religions or whatever..
You Vijay or ( Ali sina ) himself people here are lying all the time they get into the site with different nicknames pretending this and that…who know…
and answering one of your post that i was mad…No i never get mad…I’m having fun here and i’m always having fun i can’t replace this comic for nothing…I haven’t slept yet…LoL.
But I’m still ok may be in a few min i go relax…it getting tiring and bored…
Be right back
YES, AGAIN….TU QUOQUE. A LOGICAL FALLACY ….IT MEANS: YOU TOO.
NO WE HAVE TWO EVILS . ISLAM REMAINS EVIL OF COURSE.
Muslims have no other defence then illogical arguments.!
Dear Muslim, How did it feel when Ali Sina said that??
aminriadh said in a different post that it felt "Disgusting and disturbing", and "Logically & Morally wrong". How about you, how did it feel?
Mohammad was a bad guest.
He killed his hosts, the people of Medina who had given him refuge. He killed many people of Medina.
@ the person posting by the id Muslim
Please read Dr Ali Sina's book UNDERSTANDING MUHAMMAD AND MUSLIMS – A Psychobiography of the Prophet of Islam.
Reading this book you will realise that Mohammad was worse than Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, etc. The worst criminal mankind has known.
You can either purchase this book or request for a pdf from alisina.org or faithfreedom.org
Dr. Ali Sina has brilliantly seen behind the mask of Mohammad – and portrayed his true character as a manipulative person who misleads people in the name of God.
Mohammad is a rascal. A petty highway robber. A sex maniac who had sex with a child and who did not leave even his daughter in law.
Nothing was sacred for Mohammad. Only his ego was sacred.
The morning after 9/11, Bush warned Americans of severe consequences if anyone hurt a Muslim. But being a politician, he knew that people have 'revenge' in their hearts, so he attacked Afghanistan (rightly), and then Iraq (imo wrongly). This deflecting of blame on to these 2 countries saved the so called 'Muslim-Americans'!
"Story of USA and its military might . . . its just not very good. It couldn't even win against the Taliban"
————
That is what happens when a country doesn't know the enemy. The country could be powerful like US (or a group like NATO), yet it suffers failure. FFI on the other hand, knows the enemy – Muhammadeanism
As per this no Muslim should eat fish or locust without confirming if it is dead or killed ? wait Dabiah for the blood of Fish ? How to make Fish Halal ? No Muslim must eat spleen or liver. As per a Hadith only dead like Fish and Locust and blood of spleen and liver is made OK to eat or Halal for Muslim, while Holy Quran tells about not eating blood or dead.
As per Ahle Quran, or Quran only sect, Holy Quran says man is made in perfect shape naturally and circumcision is in Hadith only. So they do not go for it.
As per some guys from Sunnis or Ahle Hadith, Some Hadith are correct so Sahih while other are not authentic.
Brother Muslim, If you are saying that Sahih Hadiths are not authentic, your own very creed, while make your throat slit like they do with lamb on Eid Ul Adha. Sorry bro but you sound like Ahle Quran guys. I have no issue with you as i try to follow Sufis. But you may face difficulties from your own people.
One of the Jain Tirthankaras was a female. Pls do more research.
Muslim girls are sold in marriage. The purchase price the groom or her husband pays to the girl's father is called Meher.
This is the purchase price paid by the man for a woman.
I will translate for you from Arabic to English.
What the person by the id Muslim has posted is:
He said Mohammad was a rapist and a pedophile.
He said Mohammad was a looter and a murderer.
He said Mohammad was a common thief.
He said Mohammad had sex with his daughter in law.
He said Mohammad had sex with his 9 year old wife, when Mohammad was 55.
He said that whenever Mohammad wanted a woman, immediately Mohammad created a false verse in the name of God and got himself that woman. Zainab was his daughter in law. Mohammad happened to see her naked and he started having fantasies about Zainab. Then he created some false verses in the name of God (which every Muslim has to recite even today).
Then Mohammad called his adopted son and asked him to divorce Zainab, so that Mohammad could marry Zainab, his daughter in law.
Mohammad used to suck tongues of his grandchildren.
Mohammad was a thug
Then don't follow Manu Smriti. Simple!
" After the 9/11 the idiot leftists rushed to protect you so there should not be retaliation against you."
You live in a dreamland don't you? USA went ahead and attacked 2 countries . . . both they were keeping tabs on.
One they won . . . other they are going to draw.
– – –
Story of USA and its military might . . . its just not very good. It couldn't even win against the Taliban.
– – –
I'd pack your bags off to China . . . See whether they need a hate monger or not.
@ Vijay are you on something ? or what did you smoke today ? .lol
I think you are funny and stupid at the same time …The So called your ( Dr ) Ali Sinna he himself said what he said and you are saying no the site that i gave you it is wrong…
Now i can say you are poting like a muslim but actually you are not …You are making some of these clowns believe that you are a muslim then you turn around and you confuse them hahahahahah That’s what I’m talking about Funny but stupid.
This is just one of the clowns doing satan’s work what do you think about the real ( Shayatins ) who have been lying on Muhamed and the KOran day and night…the called him majnoon…what do you expect they can call him many things….
What logic this Sina and his websites are following I really can’t tell…They are in so much confusion unbelievable…
Be right back.
Absolutely!
Mohammad the great respecter of woman.
Mohammad had a poetess Asma bint Marwan killed when she was feeding her infant child at night. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/the-murder-….
Quran clearly says men are superior to women (4:34),although some have interpreted it to "superior in strength".In the same surah,men are allowed to beat women to make them obedient.Again (2:228) says men are a degree above women.2:222 says menstruation makes women unclean.4:24 prohibits all married women except captive women,even if they are married.2:223 wives are a tilth to men,to be approached whenever and however the husband wills,not the other way round.
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
This aspect is also confirmed by the Hadiths:-
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 6 :: Hadith 301
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Muhammad clearly says women are deficient in intelligence due to which two women equal a man in witness.And they are deficient in religion because they can't pray or fast during menses because they're 'unclean'.
Despite all this,you write a few lines(from Wikipedia!!!) giving a flowery look to the filth.Why this deceit?Why this support to an inadmissible philosophy?
Mohammad the great respecter of woman.
Mohammad had a poetess Asma bint Marwan killed when she was feeding her infant child at night. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/the-murder-…
http://alisina.org/mubahila-the-islamic-cursing-t…
Here i find Mr Sina not against individual but the idealogy, this from his site only.
"Why not Hindu Thinks of Draupadi being saved by Lord Krishna in court from being nude publicly. Time is for you Hindus to save Muslims girls from the demons, thinking them as your own, like lord Krishna, not like Bhishma. They are not "others" for you that you make fun of them."
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Who at FFI is making fun of Muslim women? The whole point behind this website is to free people, both men and women, from the shackles of Islam, so that their lives can be better.
"Hindus are ready to remove or reinterpret the text. Welcome step. Same could be done with Muslims or not "
————
No, it cannot be done! Even if someone manages to liberalise Muslim societies, sooner or later they will be radicalized again, and examples of this are all over the Muslim world.
Dara Shikoh sided with the truth, and what happened to him….. he was killed by his radical brother. Your other example, Bulleh shah… he was born in a Muslim household, but his views were 180 degrees different from Islam. He was called a heretic by radicals, and no one came forward to save him.
In any Muslim society, it is the radicals that are most powerful. You yourself prove that when you say “Had i been in Saudi Arabia, my throat would have been slit. I dont know that like animal of Dabiah, my face wold be turned to holy Qaba and Allah Hu Akbar be read then or not ? Human life sacrificed for blasphemy” Your throat would have been slit, because there are true Muslims (radicals) in SA.
Bro,
Please dont not loose your cool, as anger is biggest enemy. Once while in Fight Hazrat Ali Ahle Salam for Shias and Razianatala Anhu for Sunis, were to hit the enemy with anger. He stopped and left him as in anger he did not deem OK to kill anyone.
I agree that in Shariya court, Human life has no value over the hurting of hearts of the believers, freedom of expression does not exist as per present democracy. Instead of replying with compassion, physical harm threats are given as shown here. You are proving what Mr Sina is propagating. Maintain calm and do not fall into the trap of Islam bashers, who are trying to paint you as savage. Allah Hafiz/Khoda Nigedor
Here again Ali Sinner you are still lying,and contradict yourself like a kid has no brain,even a kids in this generation are more smarter. To Follow your logic if a muslim country nuke an other country you have to nuke all of them ….ok that’s logic you are fighting and defending yourself and you are going to nuke even those who have nothing to do with it ( Great,That yur logic )That’s fine….How about if that happened to the muslims don’t they have the right to slay them as you said.
1st lie: “slay the unbeliever, even though the unbelievers have done nothing to Muslims”
Islam never teach this kind of behavior and you know it… provide the verse to see what does it say exactly. ( we went through that many many times in your old site with your followers ) But it is ok I can repeat that it may help some weak brains in here.
I got an idea how is your brain work, and that could happen due to your situation in which you lived in…To be truthful with you sometimes i feel sorry for the hate,and ignorance that comes from you may be you are a victim of some sorts who knows…There are good people and bad ones wherever you go from all sorts of faiths and non- faith… even in ones family….
We Muslims we give you a warning too, if you attack us of course we are going to defend ourselves with all what we got… You got your belief we got our belief …So be a smart man and don’t act like a kid because you are just wasting your golden time in vain .
A man who dares to waste one hour of his time has not discovered the value of life…And i don’t think you know what I mean .
Peace bro .
I’ll be right back.
Well here the issue is Islamic Law and Contemporary liberal democratic values , while in the context of ladies, evolution with time. Hindu thinkers are reforming by reinterpreting, discarding, opposing or altering their old texts. What about the ideology of Mr Sina? Which Holy Vedas, Samritis or Puranas he follows or Fight for. I repeat what i said before.
New Islam is better then old Hindusim as brother Muslims wants to prove. So as per this logic, Hindus must leave Hinduism and join Islam. If Mr Sina prove that new democratic system is better then old Kuran, will Brother Muslim, like to leave Islam(Astagfurullah) for the democracy ?
Alauddin Khilji and Rani Padmavati's Jauhar is well known in history.
Muslim rulers had thousands and thousands of concubines, yet their lust could not be satisfied by anyone.
A Muslim from his childhood is taught to see woman as a sex object or in their language it is called 'awra'.
Women have to cover themselves from head to toe – otherwise they would become possible targets of rape by Muslim men.
In Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark – these type of rapes take place today, thanks to the Muslim immigrants who cannot control their lust looking at the white woman.
‘Sati’ is an ancient Sanskrit term, meaning a chaste woman who thinks of no other man than her own husband. The famous examples are Sati Anusuiya, Savitri, Ahilya etc. None of them committed suicide, let alone being forcible burned. So how is that that they are called Sati?
The word ‘Sati’ means a chaste woman, and it has no co-relations with either suicide or murder. The term ‘Sati’ was never accompanied by ‘Pratha’. . Sati was taken form the above quoted source and ‘Pratha’ was taken from the practice of Johar’, (by distorting its meaning from ‘suicide’ to ‘murder’) and the myth of ‘Sati Pratha’ was born to haunt Hindus forever.
So ‘Sati Pratha’ (in its modern avatar of forcible widow burning) is not a fault of Hinduism but a crime of Islam. Islam is the perpetrator of crime here, and Hinduism, the victim.
The crime of Islam was transposed on Hinduism (absolving Islam in the process) by the historical connivance of anti-Hindu forces (Islam, Christianity and Marxism).
Hindus being oppressed for centuries have developed a mental state called ‘Dhimmitude’, which means a mental slavery to its long time oppressor Islam. So, now even those Hindus who stand against Islam are timid, defensive and guilty of some hypothetical crimes, imagined for their chagrin, for them by their enemies. They still can’t think freely, analyze history objectively and recognize the true nature of Hinduism, i.e., Dharma.
But, if they want to re-generate Dharma, Truth and Goodness then they will have to view History in its true light, with Courage, Resolution and with Objectivity. Then only they will be able to re-discover their Dharma and do something for its regeneration.
They harped on Sati, and invented the very term and phenomenon of Sati Pratha, citing some allegedly eye-witness accounts of widow burning on the funeral pyre of their husband. So, what was the truth in those accounts? If, there was any truth in those accounts, then what was their origin?
For finding their origin, we have to stretch our memory some centuries back to the Medieval Ages, the era of great unprecedented rape, pillage and looting of India by Muslims and their armies. Among the very first provinces to bear the brunt of Islamic sword were Sindh, Punjab and Rajputana. Sindh being Buddhist in majority and Punjab also having a considerable population of Buddhists, succumbed soon to the unprecedented barbarous Islamic invasions. But Rajputana being completely Hindu held out for centuries. Even now there are only 9% Muslims in Rajasthan. But this resistance cost them a great deal. They had never faced such barbarous invaders and looters. All of the wars which they fought until then, were fought with a moral ethical code. Being synonymous with the Hindu philosophy, wars were fought only between warriors and concerned only them. Civil populace was never even touched, let alone molested.
But the new Islamic enemy they were now facing was an unprecedented evil force, which did not rely on valour for victory, but instead on treachery, deceit, malice, crookedness and all other evil means. Those Islamic armies instead of fighting chivalrously with their opponents, chose to decimate the civilian populace, by laying siege to the country side, thus decimating the social, cultural and economic fabric of the nations. They massacred and butchered complete populations of Hindus, broke their idols, desecrated their temples, butchered the Brahmins, converted them forcibly to Islam (by making them eat beef!) destroyed their corps, poisoned their wells, burned their houses, abducted their children and raped their women. They took their inspiration from Quran. Ayats 2:193, 8:39, orders them to break idols. Ayats 8:12, 22: 19-22 exhorts them to massacre the religious leaders of the other religion. Ayats 33:59 and 4:24 encourages them to commit sexual transgressions without compunction with the non-Muslim women.
This, this last atrocity done to the local populace by these Islamic marauders was without precedence in cruelty. (No one in Hindu era even thought of touching another woman, let alone raping her). It was a greater calamity on women than their family men. They did not think of such calamity befalling them in their wildest nightmares. They were free women under Hinduism with an equal say in society as men. They were not used to the sexual, and mental humiliation and torture to which Muslim and non-Muslim women under Islamic rule were subjected to. Chastity for them was everything, the prime value of life. They could not imagine an unchaste life. The very concept was unthinkable to them. And for preserving their chastity they were prepared to do anything, to break every barrier, to sacrifice every tying, even their life. And so they did.
Facing these Islamic molesters, the brave Hindu women chose death. They built big cauldron like pots, lit then with fire and jumped into them, to die voluntarily and happily in order to save their honour and chastity. They chose and embraced death themselves and nobody forced them to do so. They with their very feminine bravery defied whole armies of Islamic marauders with all of their evil means and intentions. This phenomenon was called ‘johar’, meaning giving themselves to fire in order to be saved from disgrace.
So, this was ‘Johar’, later practiced by Hindu women in every part of India in order to save themselves from the dirty hands of Islamic marauders. There was no forced immolation in that process, no malign Brahmins, no cruel priests, thus no ‘Sati Pratha.’ And for suicide no other person can be blamed, other than those Islamic marauders whose threat forced Hindu women to suicide
Can the Muslims pass a bill in Islamic countries where criticizing Mohammad does not become blasphemy?
If blasphemy is not punished then all the truths about Mohammad will be out and all Muslims will start leaving Islam one by one.
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Can the Muslims pass a bill in Islamic countries where criticizing Mohammad does not become blasphemy?
If blasphemy is not punished then all the truths about Mohammad will be out and all Muslims will start leaving Islam one by one.
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Can the Muslims pass a bill in Islamic countries where criticizing Mohammad does not become blasphemy?
If blasphemy is not punished then all the truths about Mohammad will be out and all Muslims will start leaving Islam one by one.
Mohammad could not control his lust. He lusted after his daughter in law. http://prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhammad-an…. http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/….
Mohammad was a rapist http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm
Mohammad raped Saffiya. http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/62….
Islam's "perfect man" Mohammed: A torturer and a rapist http://dharmaveer.blogspot.in/2010/11/islams-perf….
Mohammad raped Juwariya. http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/muha….
Mohammad had sex with the child Aisha.
Mohammad has been accused of being a pedophile. http://alisina.org/was-muhammad-a-pedophile/
Mohammad had sex with Hafsa's slave maid by the name Maria, the Copt. Mohammad cheated Hafsa and sent her to her father's house and in her absence had sex with Maria. The cheating Prophet. http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/muhamma….
Bro,
This is not the site of Mr Sina but Anti Mr Sina site. I can pose as Mr Sina and claim that I am doing Tauba, repentance. So if he said to be wrong with Muslims, being true Muslims as per order of Allah, you need to do most good/best to the wrong doer as stated in Holy Quran.
I hope Mr Sina, is here, If he agree that, he wants to nuke Muslims and hate them, and quotes given above are not fabricated or out of context , then should we agree.
Anyway some more questions.
1. Do you agree to the right of widows of Prophet PBUH to remarry ?
2. If I am not mistaken as per Hanafi Fiqh Jurisprudence a women must not go to pilgrimage or outside without Mehram(some close relative), Is it true ?
3. If say your sister lives in Islamic state and does not want to wear Hijab/veil , what should be done with her ?
4. Say I am a Muslim, and my daughter wants to have live in relationship and we are in Islamic country, she is not obeying me, what should I do ?
5. Say i Am a Muslim, my Muslim daughter takes the oldest profession of prostitution or drinks wine or eat pork or say worship idol, what should i do, when i am in a country ruled by Sharia/Islamic law ?
6. I am a Muslim living in Islamic nation and my wife becomes Hindu and marries a Hindu, without divorcing me, what should i do ?
7. Do you think that Muslims who do circumcision of ladies, OK ?
Say if Islamist, nuke my country and i have nuclear arms. I will do what Mr Sina said. If Saudi Arabia did it, i will not lose time to nuke that nations, irrespective of the fate of Holy Mecca.
Anyway dont think I am a Hindu, For me followers make religion while so called founders only preach spirituality.
1, I have questioned Hindus for there not allowing mensuration ladies into temple or in some temples not allowing ladies, within the age of mensuration.
2. I have asked about why dont they put sacred thread to the ladies ?
To Sikhs I have asked, why is no Guru a female ?
To Jains, why no Tirthankara a female ?
To Buddhists about numbers of female Bodhisatvas ?
To Catholics about, why cant a female be pope or say Mom at highest ?
Shias allow female in Mosque, Sufis have Nissan Mussallah(prayer place for ladies), what about Sunnis ?
Largest number of women apostates in southern Asia are from Sunnis. Some anti Muslim organisations keep the database of Muslims girls, who want to leave Islam and marry a non Muslims. Do not take it as an anti Islamic propaganda, I am telling you the tactics of anti Islamic guys.
Please use one username not a dozen. Don, Bela, Black Muslim, Divers, Wicky, Efficient, Honest man.. and more! What is the point in having so many usernames?
I said if Muslims nuke one of our cities in the free world we should nuke them and take them back to the stone age. I still say this. In fact this is going to happen whether I say it or not. When you cross that line, human survival instinct will kick in. The world will not wait for you to nuke another city and another one. They will nuke you out or existence and if you live in the west, the very leftist morons who today protect you will slit your throat in the street.
Islam is insanity. But so far you have been tolerated largely. After the 9/11 the idiot leftists rushed to protect you so there should not be retaliation against you. But if you cross that line you will be extinct along with your religion. This is a blatant truth and if you ignore it you ignore it at your own peril.
As a matter of fact I believe the governments of the free world must draw this line clearly. It is better to say it now and hopefully stop you brain dead zombies from committing your last act of insanity that let you do it and we respond.
Now since you have no shame, you ignore all the verses of your prophet that says slay the unbeliever, even though the unbelievers have done nothing to Muslims,but you think it is wrong for someone to say we’ll retaliate if you nuke us. This is going to happen. It is better that someone say it so hopefully you think twice before committing your last act of insanity.
That means you are worst then Your idol Ali Sinner…You are the most terrorist in the world you don’t deserve to be free in the society…You are criminal and needs to be judged and sentenced to death or life in prison…People like you if they have no brain to use…Think about your religion isn’t a religion of terrorists and blood ?
How hypocrite are you ? show me your true teeth and i will count them for you hahahah
I’m not a cowered like you hide behind a computer ,when you hear about other religion you laugh but when you hear about yours you want to kill of them. That’s the logic right there for you ….You may have a high degree like so called ( Dr ) Sinner your idol what is your tittle ?
Go kill yourself,you death is better then your life . No manners,no respect to humanity just like a pig…
I’ll be right back.
Islam is religious of terrorist and evil. That will no peace as long Islam exist ! To destroy Islam must destroy Mecca first ! Wake up Israel and US ! Go to destroy Mecca that will end of Islam !
@ vijay and check this site too about the filthy mouth of this Ali Sinner
http://www.truthexposed.co.uk/Ali%20Sina%20short%…
I’ll be right back
@ Vijay here is the link that shows that Sina wanted to kill all muslims.
http://www.truthexposed.co.uk/images/sina_kill_all_muslims.jpg
And Good luck.
I’ll be right back.
Ali Sina, you like asking a favorite questions which you normally use too justify your use of hadith, and that is what reasons do the hadith narrators have to narrate false stories about their prophet, i will ask you the-same questions here, what reason does the west have for narrating single sided story of Africa? Some of the conditions they show to the world are actually true in some parts of Africa, but does this make the story Africa?
Do well to view these video of another person who well illustrated the problem of single story at a ted talk show
[youtube D9Ihs241zeg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ihs241zeg youtube]
I like it when you quote and you make a point to mention the originators of these teachings to be humans and not the Quran, i know upon reading this you will almost jump to Quote Quranic verses, which are either mistranslated or misunderstood to prove these scholars got their backing from the Quran. This is never true for islam. I stay in a predominantly Islamic community and non of these happen. I do know you have a scape goat community which is Pakistan and Afghanistan and the likes, the characteristic blue covering is with the people of that community. but you are a crafty lair!
You remind me of the west and the tricks they play when they come to Africa, they cover stories and pictures of a very negative, suffering and dieing Africa, they create images of a group of humans who have just evolved from apes. In all they create just a single story of Africa. his was evident recently when we had some exchange program with student from Denmark, when they arrived, they told me they were really surprised at what they saw. They told us they were surprised to see the High buildings and well dressed people in Africa, one of them admitted they taught people still lived on tress in Africa. You know what Ali sina, these young students were victims of a single story. So many people on your website would also be victims of single story about islam. it beats my imagination how some people still have these stories about Africa even in these modern times. so goes to you Ali sina, your one sided version of islam, and you are lying mortal similar to those who spread a single story about Africa in the west! You go with the one side that makes you create a monstrous picture you buttress your point with sectarian, misogynistic and a belligerent minority amongst muslims to justify your one sided story. You may seem to be succeeding at first, but your supporters would drop like you hot when they realize your tricks
…to be continued
Did Muslims make anti dowry law in India ? Did Muslims made marriageable age of girl 18 years ? As per Muslim personal law for Muslims girls age in India for marriage is lesser. Are you sure that dowry is not in Muslims families of south Asia. What about acid attacks on Muslim ladies by their fellow Muslims in Pakistan ? There is a persecution culprit in dowry case. Crimes in Pakistan are un reported. Seeing the mot in others' eye, missing the plank in own eye. Is Mr Sina , A Hindu ? What will you do if your daughter or sister marry a non Muslim ?
please provide the link for his threat to nuke Muslims. I agree that I am filthy mouth and dumb. But please provide the thread, which states Mr Sina telling to nuke Muslims. It is holy Month of Ramzan, if some one does sin, at the last day of judgement, he is caught or she is caught.
The living revolutionary Mr. Rajashekar questions what right has the Hindus to criticize the Muslims? Have you ever heard of a Muslim burning his wife? Every day we read in the paper about dowry deaths, Hindu women being burnt by the husband or in-laws. It is a fact that upper caste Hindus ill-treat their women. The Brahmin press has brainwashed all of us saying that Muslims do not give freedom to their women. He again questions, “Do the Hindus respect their women?” You be the judge!
If prophet Nuh AS said this, for daughter see the example of Hazarat Lut(Lot) AS) for Sister see the killing of Hazrat Habeel(Able) AS and Kabeel(Cane). And can your great self guarantee that no Muslim has Oedipus complex.
I am not pro Hindu, but enjoying your self satisfying anti Hindu rhetoric to let down Mr Sina, while proving yourself only at clumsy position. read the tauzo again . I seek refuge to the God from out caste satan.
The prophet would never say anything contrary to the Quran, he would have gotten immediate rejection from His people, The only individuals who would accept the Deficient in religion story from Bukhari or any other historical source are sectarian muslims.
As for the story about menstruating women, This is based on a misunderstanding of at least two verses. Verse 56:79 is not an
inscriptive but a descriptive verse about understanding of the Quran. The only
verse mentioning menstruation forbids sexual intercourse during menstruation
since it is considered a painful period (2:222), and does not forbid women from
praying or reading the Quran.
The Quran prohibits sexual relationship with a menstruating woman, not because
she is dirty, but because menstruation is painful. The purpose is to protect
women's health from being burdened by the sexual desires of their husbands.
However, the male authors of the Old Testament, exaggerated and generalized
this divine prohibition so much so that they turned menstruation to a reason for
their humiliation, isolation, and punishment. (Leviticus 15:19-33)
Despite the Quranic rule, the followers of hadith and sunna adopted Jewish laws
that consider a woman unclean, and treat her like dirt for fourteen straight days of
every month. According to the fabricated rules of the Old Testament, a
menstruating woman is considered unclean for seven days, and during that period
wherever she sits will be considered unclean; whoever touches her or sits where
she sits must wash and bathe. After she finishes the menstruation, she has to wait
for seven more days to be considered clean for ceremonial purposes. (Leviticus
15:19-33)
@ Vijay you said brother: “Mr Sina only hates an ideology and not the adherent.”
I bet you are new with Ali Sinner aren’t you ?
He in one of his posts in his old site before he created this one he wanted to nuke all Muslims,he wanted to kill all of them kids young and old ,nothing would escape from his mass murder that he wished to do on all muslims and you come over here and you open your filthy mouth saying what you said….What a double standers Shame on you…
Get a life bro and “pull your socks up” You are as dumbed as he is …
Be right back.
HINDU WOMEN VS MUSLIM WOMEN.
HINDU Lady:
1- The Hindu woman has no right to divorce her husband.
2- She has no property or inheritance rights.
3- Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
4- The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.
5- If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today’s law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other “holy” ways (see below).
6- She can never remarry.
7- The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public. She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children’s marriage!)
8- Child and infant marriage is encouraged.
THE MUSLIM LADY:
1- The Muslim lady has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters, including divorce.
2- She enjoys property and inheritance rights. (Which other religion grants women these
rights?). She can also conduct her own separate business.
3- She can marry any Muslim of her choice. If her parents choose a partner for her, her consent has to be taken.
4-The dowry in Islam is a gift from a husband to his wife (not the other way round as is practiced by some ignoramuses).
5-A Muslim widow is encouraged to remarry, and her remarriage is the responsibility of the Muslim society.
6-Mixed marriage is encouraged and is a means to prevent racism creeping into society.
7-A Muslim mother is given the highest form of respect.
Now judge for yourself …Do you lady still wanna be a Hindu or a Muslim…
It is your call lady .
I’ll be right back.
Women = Idiots = Animals = Untrustworthy
“At the time of consultation he should have removed idiots, the mute, blind, or deaf; animals and very old people; women, barbarians, and those who are ill or who lack a part of the body.”
“(Such) despicable (persons), likewise animals and especially women betray secret council; therefore he should be cautious among them.”
(Manusmrti 7:149-150)
Women r not fit for independence !
“Men must keep their women dependent day and night, and keep under their own control those who are attached to sensory objects. Her father guards her in childhood, her husband guards her in youth, and her sons guard her in old age. A woman is never fit for independence.“
(Manusmrti 9:2-4)
All women think like whores !
“Women donot care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age (thinking)“It is enough he is a man.” They give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly.”
“Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal to their husbands, however they may be carefully guarded over this.”
(Manusmrti 9:14-15)
Don’t misunderstood me I love hindu women,like all women in the world…they don’t have the power that men have. Girls and ladies they are all my sisters and i consider the old ones them my mothers as well…And i hate to see them suffering the way they are…
Anyways :
Now see the verses of “Sacred” Hinduism Literature about women
Women = Dogs = Sudras = Untruth
“And whilst not coming into contact with Sûdras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sûdra, the dog, and the black bird (the crow), are untruth: he should not look at these, lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth.”
(Satapatha Brahmana 14:1:1:31)
Women are dumb !
“Indra himself hath said, The mind of woman brooks not discipline, her intellect hath little weight.”
(Rig Veda 8:33:17)
Women r powerless and have no inheritence !
“they could not discern the world of heaven, they saw this (cup) for the wives, they drew it; then indeed did they discern the world of heaven; in that (the cup) for the wives is drawn, (it serves) to reveal the world of heaven. Soma could not bear being drawn for women; making the ghee a bolt they beat it, they drew it when it had lost its power; therefore women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man”
(Yajur Veda – Taittiriya Samhita 6:5:8:2)
A wife without a son is a discarded wife !
“And on the following day he goes to the house of a discarded (wife), and prepares a pap for Nirriti;–a discarded wife is one who has no son. He cooks the pap for Nirriti of black rice, after splitting the grains with his nails. He offers it with, ‘This, O Nirriti, is thy share: accept it graciously, hail!’ For a wife that is without a son, is possessed with Nirriti (destruction, calamity)“
(Satapatha Brahmana 5:3:1:13)
Inequity and degradation of women are sanctified in the Hindu religion. Manu Smriti says:
Never trust a woman. Never sit alone with a woman even if it may be your mother, she may tempt you. Do not sit alone with your daughter, she may tempt you. Do not sit alone with your sister, she may tempt you.
Again the same Manu Smriti continues:
“Na stree swadantriya marhathi”. “No liberty for women in society”.
Now, that is most disgusting!!! This sick pervert actually insinuates that one’s own mother will tempt him! Na’oothu billahi minash-shaytaanir-rajeem!!!
Take care while laughing that your saliva does not enter your stomach, else your fast will be broken before time. Are you sure that the meaning of calling something false means hating it ? As per your philosophy, in order to hate a philosophy, the adherents of that ideology are to be hated. Mr Sina only hates an ideology and not the adherent.
I really feel sorry to see your state, I think Mr Sina is Zionist payed by Jews, who want to prove that Muslims are lower in intellect. Your replies to him, prove this furthermore. You are getting into trap. and yet laughing. I learnt it in a class by Sufis, that once a person urinated in a mosque, Hazrat Umar(Razia Tala Anhu) wanted to behead him, while prophet PBUH used love and convinced that person about his mistake and he became a Muslim.
Just by fighting and debating Mr Sina and calling him sinner(height of idioticity is by joining name of Hazrat Ali(Razi) with term sinner astagfurullah). You laugh on Hindus, i pity on your being this kind of Muslims. Patience, love, persuasion which are attribute of prophet PBUH, you forget. Yet claim that you copy him for getting into heaven.
And about the Ahadith there are alots of wrong ahadith in boukhari,muslim and others..
hahahahah where is what you have to know that :
1 – Hadith is hear saying and there are many kinds and categories of Ahadith…you have to know that.
2- Most of it are lies about the prophet and Islam.
How to solve this problem ?
1 – if it matches what is in the Koran then it is good.
2- If it doesn’t match what is in the Koran then it is false
3- Some doesn’t match the Koran but the tellers are unknown or very old to remember what the prophet said…So we in that case we have to use our brain to see if we can use it or not…And we all know that the good is clear and the bad is clear ….So here you go .
I had a lots of fun here with you guys but still i miss some guys in the old site Wehtiko,sincerefforts, and i think Mary… we were debating good stuff…
I’m not a new here guys you have to know that…You just started to come over here…and for me it is really tiring to repeat every thing every day….I gave that to Ali Sinner i really don’t know how he does it …lol
But if i get paid as he does I may handle this. hahahah
I’ll be right back…
Bhishma Pitamaha also said: “The teacher who teaches true knowledge is more important than ten instructors. The father is more important than ten such teachers of true knowledge and the mother is more important than ten such fathers. There is no greater guru than mother.” Mahabharata, Shantiparva, Chapter 30, sloka 9.
Two other points deserve mention: the issue of sati and child marriage.
The first point to realise about Sati is that Goddess Sati, consort of Lord Mahdeva, after whom the practice is named, did not commit Sati in the form that it is known today. In modern times sati is supposed to be committed by a widow on the funeral pyre of her husband. Lord, Mahadeva, consort of Goddess Sati, is swayambhu, i.e., is self-born and without parents and is eternal and lives forever. He was very much alive when Goddess Sati created yogagni which consumed Her body. Only the likes of Goddess Sati have the spiritual powers to create yogagni. What has been practised as Sati in recent times is just plain murder. When Rani Padmawati killed herself she did it to prevent herself from falling in the hands of the enemies. But then so many men have committed suicide to avoid falling in the hands of their enemies. Whys isn’t this called Sati? In our scriptures there are hardly any instances of women self immolating themselves upon the death of their husbands. The three queens of King Dasratha were widowed but none committed self immolation. All the wives of Lord Krishna were widowed, but none committed self immolation. The original Ramayana, the Valmiki Ramayana, does not say that the widow of Meghnada, committed self immolation. This is mentioned only in later versions which were written during the middle ages and when, probably, widowed girls killed themselves to avoid facing dishonour. This was later exalted to the status of a good religious practice by so-called pundits who saw, in this practice, the opportunity to make bucks, quick as well as sustained as sati shrines became venerated among the population. Madri, widow of Pandu, did self immolate herself on her husband’s funeral pyre but she did this of her own volition and, probably out of a sense of guilt, since their coming together in love, according to the Mahabharata, was the cause of Pandu’s death. Hence, let us be clear: Sanatana Dharma does not advocate or sanctify sati.
In the case of child marriage, again, there is nothing in our scriptures that promotes it. Child marriage, probably, became common because girls entering puberty were often kidnapped in the lawless middle ages. None of our scriptures suggests that girls should be married off when they are kids. Indeed a certain maturity is expected of women who are married. As an example, we have this remarkable sloka: “O bride! May you be like the empress of your mother-in-law, father-in-law, sisters-in-law and brothers-in-law (sisters and brothers of the groom). May your writ run in your house.”
Rigveda Samhita Part -4, sukta 85, sloka 9712
Shall some people put something in Hebrew or Dev Nagari ?
You might me fasting bro, take care of your stomach.
Anyway how many nations have law based upon Hindu texts ? How many Hindus follow their law against the law of the nation they live in ?
Women were allowed full freedom of worship.
“The wife should do agnihotra (yagna), sandhya (puja) and all other daily religious rituals. If, for some reason, her husband is not present, the woman alone has full rights to do yagna.” Rigveda Samhita, part 1, sukta 79, sloka 872.
That women and men are equal in the eyes of dharma is made explicit in a beautiful sloka from the Rigveda: “O women! These mantras are given to you equally (as to men). May your thoughts, too, be harmonious. May your assemblies be open to all without discrimination. Your mind and consciousness should be harmonious. I (the rishi) give you these mantras equally as to men and give you all and equal powers to absorb (the full powers) of these mantras.” Rigveda 10-191-3.
Indeed the virtues of the loyal and virtuous (pativrata) wife are comparable to only those of agnideva (the fire god). “… This agnideva is pure and worthy of worship just as pativrata women.” Rigveda Samhita, Part -1, sukta 73, sloka 829.
Men are extolled to consider womanhood as being worthy of worship and it is made clear that it is normal for men to praise their wives. “Just as Indradeva is praised like tree bearing fruit and warriors dexterous in the use of weapons and by newly trained rishis, we too pray to the much adorned and venerated Indradeva just as man praises his wife.” Rigveda Samhita, Part-2, sukta 21, sloka 3287
The Vedic period was glorified by the tradition. Many rishis were women. Indeed several of them authored many of the slokas in the Vedas. For instance in the Rigveda there is a list of women rishis. Some of these names are: Ghoshsha, Godha, Vishwawra, Apala, Upanishad, Brahmjaya, Aditi, Indrani, Sarma, Romsha, Urvashi, Lopamudra, Yami, Shashwati, Sri, Laksha and many others. In the Vedic period women were free to enter into brahmacharya just as men and become sannyasins. There is mention in the Mahabharata of many such sannyasins. For example, Shrutavati, a daughter of Rishi Bhardwaj remained a brahmacharini all her life and entered into deep study of the Vedas. Shrimati, a daughter of Mahatma Shandilya, led a similar life. This was not confined to sannyasins. Sulabha was an authority on the Vedas and entered into Vedic arguments with King Janaka (Janaka is like a title and there are known to be 19 such with the father of Goddess Sita being one of them). Even married women were known to be acknowledged authorities on the Vedas. There are many such examples and it is not possible to mention all of them. My only intention here is to indicate that men and women were granted equal rights in such matters. God provided the knowledge of the Vedas in the hearts of women just as He did in the case of men. How can God who is the embodiment of kindness, just and fair discriminate between man and woman among his own children?
During Hindu marriage ceremonies the following slokas are read out by the grooms but, these days, little understood. “O bride! I accept your hand to enhance our joint good fortune. I pray to you to accept me as your husband and live with me until our old age. …” Rigveda Samhita Part -4, sukta 85, sloka 9702
Women were considered to be the embodiment of great virtue and wisdom.
Thus we have: “O bride! May the knowledge of the Vedas be in front of you and behind you, in your centre and in your ends. May you conduct your life after attaining the knowledge of the Vedas. May you be benevolent, the harbinger of good fortune and health and live in great dignity and indeed be illumined in your husband’s home.” Atharva Veda 14-1-64.
well read ramayana u bastards then u wll know what is purity devotion sacrifice selflessness…….
One more last thing before i go I can’t stay here laughing all day…laughter is good for the health but sometimes it hurts too so to answer your knowledge about sura 4 alaya 43. here it is : you ‘ve got to read it in my language hahahahaha.
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ
لِلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلا
تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيّاً كَبِيراً (34)
الرجال قوَّامون على توجيه النساء ورعايتهن, بما خصهم الله به من خصائص القِوامَة والتفضيل, وبما أعطوهن من المهور والنفقات. فالصالحات المستقيمات على شرع الله
منهن, مطيعات لله تعالى ولأزواجهن, حافظات لكل ما غاب عن علم أزواجهن بما اؤتمنَّ عليه بحفظ الله وتوفيقه, واللاتي تخشون منهن ترفُّعهن عن طاعتكم, فانصحوهن
بالكلمة الطيبة, فإن لم تثمر معهن الكلمة الطيبة, فاهجروهن في الفراش, ولا تقربوهن, فإن لم يؤثر فعل الهِجْران فيهن, فاضربوهن ضربًا لا ضرر فيه, فإن أطعنكم
فاحذروا ظلمهن, فإن الله العليَّ الكبير وليُّهن, وهو منتقم ممَّن ظلمهنَّ وبغى عليهن.
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِقَاقَ بَيْنِهِمَا فَابْعَثُوا حَكَماً مِنْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَماً مِنْ أَهْلِهَا إِنْ يُرِيدَا إِصْلاحاً يُوَفِّقْ اللَّهُ بَيْنَهُمَا إِنَّ
اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً خَبِيراً (35)
وإن علمتم -يا أولياء الزوجين- شقاقًا بينهما يؤدي إلى الفراق, فأرسلوا إليهما حكمًا عدلا من أهل الزوج, وحكمًا عدلا من أهل الزوجة; لينظرا ويحكما بما فيه المصلحة
لهما, وبسبب رغبة الحكمين في الإصلاح, واستعمالهما الأسلوب الطيب يوفق الله بين الزوجين. إن الله تعالى عليم, لا يخفى عليه شيء من أمر عباده, خبير بما تنطوي
عليه نفوسهم.
وَاعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَلا تُشْرِكُوا بِهِ شَيْئاً وَبِالْوَالِدَيْنِ إِحْسَاناً وَبِذِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْجَارِ
ذِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْجَارِ الْجُنُبِ وَالصَّاحِبِ بِالْجَنْبِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ مَنْ كَانَ مُخْتَالاً
فَخُوراً (36)
واعبدوا الله وانقادوا له وحده, ولا تجعلوا له شريكًا في الربوبية والعبادة, وأحسنوا إلى الوالدين, وأدُّوا حقوقهما, وحقوق الأقربين, واليتامى والمحتاجين, والجار
القريب منكم والبعيد, والرفيق في السفر وفي الحضر, والمسافر المحتاج, والمماليك من فتيانكم وفتياتكم. إن الله تعالى لا يحب المتكبرين من عباده, المفتخرين على
الناس.
الَّذِينَ يَبْخَلُونَ وَيَأْمُرُونَ النَّاسَ بِالْبُخْلِ وَيَكْتُمُونَ مَا آتَاهُمْ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لِلْكَافِرِينَ عَذَاباً مُهِيناً
(37)
الذين يمتنعون عن الإنفاق والعطاء مما رزقهم الله, ويأمرون غيرهم بالبخل, ويجحدون نِعَمَ الله عليهم, ويخفون فضله وعطاءه. وأعددنا للجاحدين عذابًا مخزيًا.
hey porki hinduism also says
respect woman and not beating them.
they are respected as mothers and sisters
even some hindu deities are women
hinduism has example for both polyandry and polygyny …unlike cruel islam………
in islam a testimony of one man is equal to 2 women…why? i man 4 wife…..if he can have 2 he can have any number……..one woman cant marry more than one man…..why? bec the KID IDENTITY CAN NOT BE RESOLVED…my god whta bullshit? we can identify them and their lineage…remember mahabharata…draupdi had 5 sons from 5 husbands and every one knew his child…bec of genetics not like quran……pigshit quran
"BROTHER"MUSLIM.
Your whole exposé is a riddle of arguments ad hominem . It is completely illogical .
As far as your arguments contradict the quran and the ahadith, you have proved Allah and Mohammed being LIARS.
Hahahaha See i can see the anger in your faces…LOL ” We don’t care about veda’s, and bibles and other scriptures here. Some believe in it , some don’t.” hahaha
You hindu people are the most selfish people in the earth ( Not all of Hindu people ) some of you said i hate The Muslim Shia hahaha what ? lol … Muslims are brothers and sisters wherever they are and wherever they go….I hate those who lie about Islam Shiia or Sunni it doesn’t make any difference . Is this is the logic you are using to debate Islam ? lol What a stupidity !
Moreover,Can’t you see yourself you guys even have a European names hahahah why don’t you name your real name … or give yourself a nickname like Govinda,krishna hahah No that’s bad people will know I’m an indian I better name my name Steve hahahah ( what a kid ! Get a life man ) it is getting bored.
Here is the deal go watch a movie or something…may be Govinda has a new movie coming up go enjoy it and leave spirituality to the people who love God and love humanity live their lives…
By the way who are you to tell me what i have to believe in? Who are you to tell me that I have to leave what I believe and fellow your stupid ideas.I was born free I believe in anything or nothing it is none of your business what a world we come to.
You need to learn how to be civilized and to be civilized you have to respect others.
No I think you are not civilized you are morons ,slaves and you think people are like you .
Ok i got enough i laughed and my stomach is hurting now. Oh man…Thanks Ali Sinner for providing me with these Clowns…I don’t have to pay to go to the theater,I just come here and have fun hahahahah
I’ll be right back .
A whole lot of crap of you "MUSLIM", but your NOT Allah .
SO we keep looking at your Quran 4:34
And you are not the prophet himself ,
so we look at sahih bukhari hadith 1-6-301.
That is where you MUST look too 😉 http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhar…
What about quran 4:34 ? ALAH'S WORDS.
Don't try to escape , silly muslim.
MANY WORDS OF YOU, ALL TAQIYYA !!
Muslim says: "I know this site is visited ONLY by Hindu people,Christians pagans and atheists like Ali Sinner. ".
Hmmm….so you are no muslim?
AHA, you are a real MUSLIM. YOU HATE THE SHIA !!
GOOD FOR YOU . 😉
If you find evil things somewhere else (true ot not true) that does not make your backward fake religion better.
Do you understand this?
Think about it !
We don't care about veda's, and bibles and other scriptures here. Some believe in it , some don't.
We only fight here against Islam. Because it is a very evil CULT.
So shut up with your stupid and illogical CRAP.
IT DOES NOT HELP YOU !!!
YOU ALSO (tu quoque) logical fallacy , over and over again.
You muslims will never learn tho think logically.
This is because you are brainwashed, by banging your stupid heads 5 times agaist the floor each day.
You can find it easily
In sahih Bukhari 1:6:301,
again in sahih Bukhari 2:24 :541 and
again in sahih Bukhari 3: 48: 826.
You should know this , being a muslim ! It is the SUNNA of your fake prophet . 😉
To Amin…
Are you really a muslim.?
We non-muslims ALL know the sahih hadith of al Bukhari book 1, vol. 6 , nr. 301.
Study your own cult …please !
@Ali Sina
_______Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man______
Does she need two men as witness if she have video recording of the incident.
You deny the truth .
Read quran 4:34.
Backward muslim.
To INOVE._Stupid, backward and brainwashed Muslim !_ You don't need "more than 6600 of al qur’an verses as guidebook of Muslim. " The are ALL evil and contradict THE ONE AND ONLY GUIDE : THE GOLDEN RULE!!!_(TREAT OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS YOU LIKE TO BE TREATED) ._Ali Sina mentions this rule many times in his articles. Though it is not his invention ! It is an very old and logical principle , ALL NORMAL THINKING HUMANS UNDERSTAND IT._And deep in your twisted muslim heart , you do it undersand this too !!
@Muslim
_________-Rig-Veda says that a women should beget sons. The newly married wife is blessed so that she could have 10 sons. So much so, that for begetting a son, 'Vedas' prescribe a special ritual called 'Punsawan sanskar__________
I have read almost all Veda but nowhere read such stupid translation. Though, there is Mantra which says Women should begot children but it is not son/daughter. Can You give me mantra (word by word) where son mentioned. I will reject the Veda within no time. But Muslim can not reject Quran because they have no freedom of free-will.
________O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women" – Atharva Ved 2/3/23____
Stupid Man, do you know this Mantra or just indulging in copy-paste stuff? You are mentioning Atharvaveda mantra 2/3/23 whereas Atharvaveda kand 2, Sukta 3 ends at mantra 6.
_________"Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be taught" – Rig Ved 8/33/17_______
Here is correct translation with Mantra
Rigveda 8/33/17:
INDRASHCHIDDHA TADBRAVEETSTRIYA ASHASYAM MANAH, UTO AHA KRATU RAGHUM¨
this mantra states:
(CHIT) again (INDRAHA GHA) totally controlled learned person also (IDAM) this (ABRAVEET) states.
Meaning: If still a complete learned person, who has full control on his mind, intellect etc., states that (ISTRIYAHA) his wife’s (MANAHA) mind (ASHASYAM) is difficult to follow his Vedic path (UTO AHA) and definitely her (KRATUM) mind and action is (RAGHUM) feeble/weak i.e., if the learned person states that the views and mind of his wife are not according to his Vedic philosophy and it is not possible to turn the wife because her mind and the power to do pious deeds is weak then what to do?
The answer of this question is given in the next mantra 18 that husband and wife both carry the family life like a chariot but the responsibility of the husband to bear the load is more than wife.
Brother Muslim,
One of the leading shining star of the present day Islam, quotes many Hindu text like Vedas, Puranas etc and tell that they do prophesy of holy prophet Muhamad Rasolakram Salallahi Salli Wa Wasallam advent into the world.
Why such cruel , in human , anti women texts forecasts the coming of prophet PBUH, much much before he was born. And why people like Mr Nayak quote them on peace TV ?
Widow was burnt at the funeral Pyre of her husband. The widow was burnt at the funeral pyre of her husband so that she may remain his slave, birth after birth and may never be released from the bonds of slavery.
The Atharva Veda says:
“O dead man following the religion and wishing to go to the husbands world, his women comes to you.” In the other world also may you give her children and wealth in the same manner. In the ‘Vedas’, widow is treated inhumanly. For example it is mentioned that on death of her husband, the wife was handed over to some other man, or to her husband younger brother.
Swami Vivekananda opines that even at that time women used to have sexual intercourse with a person other than her husband to beget a child. The hymn says:
“O woman, get up and adopt the worldly life again. It is futile to lie with this dead man. Get up and become the wife of the man who is holding your hand and who loves you. – Rig Ved 10/18/8
Apparently this shows that woman is considered to be a property. Whenever and whosoever desired, could become her master. If the women was not remarried, then her head was shaved. This is evident from Atharva Veda (14/2/60).
This custom was obviously meant to disgrace her. For what connection does shaving of widows head has with the death of her husband ? The condition of widows was miserable. She was considered to be a harbinger of inauspiciousness and was not allowed to participate in ceremonies like marriage. This custom is still prevalent in some places. She has to spend her life alone In Rig Veda therre are references to slave girls being given in charity as gifts. After killing the menfolk of other tribes, particularly of the native inhabitants, their women were rounded up and used as slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to one other as gifts. The kings used to present chariots full of slave girls to their kith and kin and preists (Rig Veda 6/27/8). King Trasdasyu had given 50 slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to Saubhri Kandav (Rig Veda 8/38, 5/47/6).
Incest in Vedas
In the name of ‘beejdan’ (seed donation), they used to have sexual intercourse with issueless women. This was a cruel religious custom and the chastity of the women was not safe. The so called caretakers of the religion were allowed to have sexual intercourse with other man’s wife. From ‘Niyog pratha’ it csn be inferred withouth fear of contradiction that women were looked upon as mere child producing machines.
In ‘The Position of women in Hindu Civilization’ Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes:
“Though women is not married to man, she was considered to be a property of the entire family. But she was not getting share out of the property of her husband, only son could be successor to the property.”
Gajdhar Prasad Baudh says: ” No woman of the Vedic age can be treated as pure. Vedic man could not keep even the relations brother-sister and father-daughter sacred from the oven of rape and debauchery/adultery named ‘Niyog’. Under the influence of intoxication of wine, they used to recognize neither
Rig-Veda says that a women should beget sons. The newly married wife is blessed so that she could have 10 sons. So much so, that for begetting a son, ‘Vedas’ prescribe a special ritual called ‘Punsawan sanskar’ (a ceremony performed during third month of pregnancy). During the ceremony it is prayed:
“Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb” – Atharva Ved 6/11/3
“O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women” – Atharva Ved 2/3/23
In ‘Shatpath Puran (shatpath Brahman)’ a sonless women has been termed as unfortunate.
‘Rig Veda’ censures women by saying:
“Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be taught” – Rig Ved 8/33/17
At another placein Rig Veda it is written:
“There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna” – Rig Ved 10/95/15.
‘Yajur Ved (Taitriya Sanhita)’m- “Women code says that the women are without energy. They should not get a share in property. Even to the wicked they speak in feeble manner” – Yajur Ved 6/5/8/2
Shatpath Puran, preachings of the ‘Yajur Veda’ clubs women, ‘shudras'(untouchables), doga, crows together and says falsehood, sin and gloom remain integrated in them. (14/1/1/31)
In ‘Aiterey Puran’, preaching of the ‘Rig Veda’ in harsih chandra -Narad dialogue, Narad says: “The daughter causes pain”
Despicable
Brother Muslim,
Why to call Shia people false. Is it not in Holy Quran that the God says that had God wanted, all were of same faith. God only wants divisions within Muslims. You may copy the life of Holy Prophet PBUH and rest 72 sects will go to hell and only your Sunnis will go to heaven . Just question, in heaven, 72 virgins to males only, what will be the status of ladies in heaven ? 72 or 36 ? male virgins or female virgins for the ladies ? Discuss this issue with learned Ulema please. What is making me feel embarrassed is that in Holy Quran, we have great spiritual things, only a spiritually enlightened person or walli can understand that. Putting them in worldly interpretation, bigot Muslims do inhuman work, people opposing them, use same to slander Islam, Instead of understanding the deeper hidden/Batin meaning, like fools some of us defend them. I give up.
Custom of Polygamy
The Aryans in those days used to attack the original inhabitants of this place, or other tribe within their own race; loot them and snatch away their women. Thus, militant and wicked men had more wives. This custom of polygamy helped a great deal in bringing down the women.
In ‘Rig Ved’ (10/59) it is written that Lord Indra had many queens that were either defeated or killed by his principal wife.
In ‘Aitrey Puran’, preachings of ‘Rig Veda’, (33/1), there is a reference to the effect that Harish Chandra had one hundred Wives.
‘Yajur Veda’ in the context of ‘Ashva Medha’ (Horse Sacraficing ceremony), says that many wives of Harish Chandra participated in the ‘Yagyna’ (religious sacrafice).
In ‘Shatpath Puran(Shatpath Brahmin)’, preachings (13/4/1/9), of the Veda, it is written that four wives do service in ‘Ashva Megha’. In another Puran (Tatiraity Brahamin, 3/8/4), it is written that wives are like property.
Not only one man had many wives (married and slave girls), but there were cases of many men having a joint wife. It is confirmed from the following hymn in ‘Atharva Veda’: “O men, sow a seed in this fertile women” – Atharva Veda 14/1
Both these customs clearly show that a women was treated like a moving property. The only difference between the two customs was that whereas according to former one man had a number of movable properties, in the latter, women a joint movable property.
Vedas sanction ‘Sati Pratha’
To insult and humiliate women further, the religious books speak of women having sexual intercourse with animals or expressing desire for intercourse with them. What further insult can be heaped on women. In ‘Yajur Veda’ such references are found at a number of places where the principal wife of the host is depicted as having intercourse with a horse.
For example consider the following hymn:
“All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband.'” – Yajur Veda 23/19.
After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: “O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception'” – Yajur Veda 23/20.
The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu (priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me.” -Yajur Veda 23/20.
Then the host, while praying to the horse says:
“O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively” – 23/21.
In the Vedic age, the customs of polygamy was prevalent. Each wife spent most of the time devising ways and means to become favorite to her husband.
Clear references are available in ‘Rig Veda’, (14/45),’ and Atharva Veda (3/81)’
Women in Hinduism
Rig-Veda says that a women should beget sons. The newly married wife is blessed so that she could have 10 sons. So much so, that for begetting a son, ‘Vedas’ prescribe a special ritual called ‘Punsawan sanskar’ (a ceremony performed during third month of pregnancy). During the ceremony it is prayed:
“Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb” – Atharva Ved 6/11/3
“O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women” – Atharva Ved 2/3/23
In ‘Shatpath Puran (shatpath Brahman)’ a sonless women has been termed as unfortunate.
‘Rig Veda’ censures women by saying:
“Lord Indra himself has said that women has very little intelligence. She cannot be taught” – Rig Ved 8/33/17
At another placein Rig Veda it is written:
“There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna” – Rig Ved 10/95/15.
‘Yajur Ved (Taitriya Sanhita)’m- “Women code says that the women are without energy. They should not get a share in property. Even to the wicked they speak in feeble manner” – Yajur Ved 6/5/8/2
Shatpath Puran, preachings of the ‘Yajur Veda’ clubs women, ‘shudras'(untouchables), doga, crows together and says falsehood, sin and gloom remain integrated in them. (14/1/1/31)
In ‘Aiterey Puran’, preaching of the ‘Rig Veda’ in harsih chandra -Narad dialogue, Narad says: “The daughter causes pain”
Despicable
Dear Brother Muslim,
Salam/Peace to you,
As per your logic, in old time women were not that OK, Islam , bit new to those time, improved her position. With same logic, we can say that if some one proves system better then Islam after the Islamic period, should women follow that.
Do you know who Manu is ? Your preachers/Tablighi's tell him to be Hazrat Nuh Ahle Salam, so if you read his Manu Samriti, I am sure you do not know Sanskrit, second last verse of Manu Samriti(actual writer is sage Bhrigu, who quotes sage Manu), it states, that for salvation, see what is in you same as around you. Term related to Panentheism , for salvation by Manu only, no caste or gender bias. Anyway, should we use term he or she for Allah SWT? for my opinion, Allah is genderless, having love equal to 70 mothers(any Sahiah Hadiths for this please). Can you tell me any matter, space or time, which is not divine ? all are Mark/Nishan of Allah SWT so all are divine as per me. Now you all can continue your fight.
Ali sinner has no clue what so ever about Woman in Islam.he gives us these people ideas and thinks that is Islam…But i don’t blame him he is an Iranian shiite and they have their own reading which is totally false and far far away from Islam…That’s why you see these shiiiiiiiity people in Islamic world beating their wives,covering them from up down…Ali sinner must be gay or he must be treated in Iran like a woman…that’s why…
Peace and i’ll be right back….
If you look for the truth don’t delete my posts let everybody read and make their mind themselves…I know this site is visited only by Hindu people,Christians pagans and atheists like Ali Sinner.
4. The Political Aspect
Any fair investigation of the teachings of Islam o~ into the history of the Islamic civilization will surely find a clear evidence of woman’s equality with man in what we call today “political rights”.
This includes the right of election as well as the nomination to political offices. It also includes woman’s right to participate in public affairs. Both in the Qur’an and in Islamic history we find examples of women who participated in serious discussions and argued even with the Prophet (P) himself, (see Qur’an 58: 14 and 60: 10-12).
During the Caliphate of Omar Ibn al-Khattab, a woman argued with him in the mosque, proved her point, and caused him to declare in the presence of people: “A woman is right and Omar is wrong.”
Although not mentioned in the Qur’an, one Hadeeth of the Prophet is interpreted to make woman ineligible for the position of head of state. The Hadeeth referred to is roughly translated: “A people will not prosper if they let a woman be their leader.” This limitation, however, has nothing to do with the dignity of woman or with her rights. It is rather, related to the natural differences in the biological and psychological make-up of men and women.
According to Islam, the head of the state is no mere figurehead. He leads people in the prayers, especially on Fridays and festivities; he is continuously engaged in the process of decision-making pertaining to the security and well-being of his people. This demanding position, or any similar one, such as the Commander of the Army, is generally inconsistent with the physiological and psychological make-up of woman in general. It is a medical fact that during their monthly periods and during their pregnancies, women undergo various physiological and psychological changes. Such changes may occur during an emergency situation, thus affecting her decision, without considering the excessive strain which is produced. Moreover, some decisions require a maximum of rationality and a minimum of emotionality – a requirement which does not coincide with the instinctive nature of women.
Even in modern times, and in the most developed countries, it is rare to find a woman in the position of a head of state acting as more than a figurehead, a woman commander of the armed services, or even a proportionate number of women representatives in parliaments, or similar bodies. One can not possibly ascribe this to backwardness of various nations or to any constitutional limitation on woman’s right to be in such a position as a head of state or as a member of the parliament. It is more logical to explain the present situation in terms of the natural and indisputable differences between man and woman, a difference which does not imply any “supremacy” of one over the other. The difference implies rather the “complementary” roles of both the sexes in life.
2. The Social Aspect
a) As a child and an adolescent
Despite the social acceptance of female infanticide among some Arabian tribes, the Qur’an forbade this custom, and considered it a crime like any other murder.
“And when the female (infant) buried alive – is questioned, for what crime she was killed.” (Qur’an 81:8-9).
Criticizing the attitudes of such parents who reject their female children, the Qur’an states:
When news is brought to one of them, of (the Birth of) a female (child), his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? Ah! What an evil (choice) they decide on? (Qur’an 16: 58-59).
Far from saving the girl’s life so that she may later suffer injustice and inequality, Islam requires kind and just treatment for her. Among the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (P.) in this regard are the following:
Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, God will enter him into Paradise. (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957).
Whosoever supports two daughters till they mature, he and I will come in the day of judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held together).
A similar Hadeeth deals in like manner with one who supports two sisters. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 2104).
The right of females to seek knowledge is not different from that of males. Prophet Muhammad (P.) said:
“Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim”. (AlBayhaqi). Muslim as used here including both males and females.
b) As a wife:
The Qur’an clearly indicates that marriage is sharing between the two halves of the society, and that its objectives, beside perpetuating human life, are emotional well-being and spiritual harmony. Its bases are love and mercy.
Among the most impressive verses in the Qur’an about marriage is the following.
“And among His signs is this: That He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest, peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.” (Qur’an 30:2 1).
According to Islamic Law, women cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of God, Muhammad (P.), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: “Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)” (Ibn Maja, No. 1873).
Besides all other provisions for her protection at the time of marriage, it was specifically decreed that woman has the full right to her Mahr, a marriage gift, which is presented to her by her husband and is included in the nuptial contract, and that such ownership does not transfer to her father or husband. The concept of Mahr in Islam is neither an actual or symbolic price for the woman, as was the case in certain cultures, but rather it is a gift symbolizing love and affection.
The rules for married life in Islam are clear and in harmony with upright human nature. In consideration of the physiological and psychological make-up of man and woman, both have equal rights and claims on one another, except for one responsibility, that of leadership. This is a matter which is natural in any collective life and which is consistent with the nature of man.
The Qur’an thus states:
“And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a degree above them.” (Qur’an 2:228).
Such degree is Quiwama (maintenance and protection). This refers to that natural difference between the sexes which entitles the weaker sex to protection. It implies no superiority or advantage before the law. Yet, man’s role of leadership in relation to his family does not mean the husband’s dictatorship over his wife. Islam emphasizes the importance of taking counsel and mutual agreement in family decisions. The Qur’an gives us an example:
“…If they (husband wife) desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them…” (Qur’an 2: 233).
Over and above her basic rights as a wife comes the right which is emphasized by the Qur’an and is strongly recommended by the Prophet (P); kind treatment and companionship.
The Qur’an states:
“…But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good.” (Qur’an 4: l9).
Prophet Muhammad. (P) said:
The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family.
The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)
Behold, many women came to Muhammad’s wives complaining against their husbands (because they beat them) – – those (husbands) are not the best of you.
As the woman’s right to decide about her marriage is recognized, so also her right to seek an end for an unsuccessful marriage is recognized. To provide for the stability of the family, however, and in order to protect it from hasty decisions under temporary emotional stress, certain steps and waiting periods should be observed by men and women seeking divorce. Considering the relatively more emotional nature of women, a good reason for asking for divorce should be brought before the judge. Like the man, however, the woman can divorce her husband with out resorting to the court, if the nuptial contract allows that.
More specifically, some aspects of Islamic Law concerning marriage and divorce are interesting and are worthy of separate treatment.
When the continuation of the marriage relationship is impossible for any reason, men are still taught to seek a gracious end for it.
The Qur’an states about such cases:
When you divorce women, and they reach their prescribed term, then retain them in kindness and retain them not for injury so that you transgress (the limits). (Qur’an 2:231). (See also Qur’an 2:229 and 33:49).
c) As a mother:
Islam considered kindness to parents next to the worship of God.
“And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness…” (Qur’an 31:14) (See also Qur’an 46:15, 29:8).
Moreover, the Qur’an has a special recommendation for the good treatment of mothers:
“Your Lord has decreed that you worship none save Him, and that you be kind to your parents. . .” (Qur’an 17:23).
A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking:
O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else? Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).
A famous saying of The Prophet is “Paradise is at the feet of mothers.” (In Al’Nisa’I, Ibn Majah, Ahmad).
“It is the generous (in character) who is good to women, and it is the wicked who insults them.”
3. The Economic Aspect
Islam decreed a right of which woman was deprived both before Islam and after it (even as late as this century), the right of independent ownership. According to Islamic Law, woman’s right to her money, real estate, or other properties is fully acknowledged. This right undergoes no change whether she is single or married. She retains her full rights to buy, sell, mortgage or lease any or all her properties. It is nowhere suggested in the Law that a woman is a minor simply because she is a female. It is also noteworthy that such right applies to her properties before marriage as well as to whatever she acquires thereafter.
With regard to the woman’s right to seek employment it should be stated first that Islam regards her role in society as a mother and a wife as the most sacred and essential one. Neither maids nor baby-sitters can possibly take the mother’s place as the educator of an upright, complex free, and carefully-reared children. Such a noble and vital role, which largely shapes the future of nations, cannot be regarded as “idleness”.
However, there is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature and in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Moreover, there is no restriction on benefiting from woman’s exceptional talent in any field. Even for the position of a judge, where there may be a tendency to doubt the woman’s fitness for the post due to her more emotional nature, we find early Muslim scholars such as Abu-Hanifa and Al-Tabary holding there is nothing wrong with it. In addition, Islam restored to woman the right of inheritance, after she herself was an object of inheritance in some cultures. Her share is completely hers and no one can make any claim on it, including her father and her husband.
“Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much – a determinate share.” ((Qur’an 4:7).
Her share in most cases is one-half the man’s share, with no implication that she is worth half a man! It would seem grossly inconsistent after the overwhelming evidence of woman’s equitable treatment in Islam, which was discussed in the preceding pages, to make such an inference. This variation in inheritance rights is only consistent with the variations in financial responsibilities of man and woman according to the Islamic Law. Man in Islam is fully responsible for the maintenance of his wife, his children, and in some cases of his needy relatives, especially the females. This responsibility is neither waived nor reduced because of his wife’s wealth or because of her access to any personal income gained from work, rent, profit, or any other legal means.
Woman, on the other hand, is far more secure financially and is far less burdened with any claims on her possessions. Her possessions before marriage do not transfer to her husband and she even keeps her maiden name. She has no obligation to spend on her family out of such properties or out of her income after marriage. She is entitled to the “Mahr” which she takes from her husband at the time of marriage. If she is divorced, she may get an alimony from her ex-husband.
An examination of the inheritance law within the overall framework of the Islamic Law reveals not only justice but also an abundance of compassion for woman.
WOMAN IN ISLAM
In the midst of the darkness that engulfed the world, the divine revelation echoed in the wide desert of Arabia with a fresh, noble, and universal message to humanity: “O Mankind, keep your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate (of same kind) and from them twain has spread a multitude of men and women” (Qur’an 4: 1).
A scholar who pondered about this verse states: “It is believed that there is no text, old or new, that deals with the humanity of the woman from all aspects with such amazing brevity, eloquence, depth, and originality as this divine decree.”
Stressing this noble and natural conception, them Qur’an states:
He (God) it is who did create you from a single soul and therefrom did create his mate, that he might dwell with her (in love)…(Qur’an 7:189)
The Creator of heavens and earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves …Qur’an 42:1 1
And Allah has given you mates of your own nature, and has given you from your mates, children and grandchildren, and has made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of God that they disbelieve? Qur’an 16:72
The rest of this paper outlines the position of Islam regarding the status of woman in society from its various aspects – spiritually, socially, economically and politically.
1. The Spiritual Aspect
The Qur’an provides clear-cut evidence that woman iscompletely equated with man in the sight of God interms of her rights and responsibilities. The Qur’an states:
“Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds” (Qur’an 74:38). It also states: …So their Lord accepted their prayers, (saying): I will not suffer to be lost the work of any of you whether male or female. You proceed one from another …(Qur’an 3: 195).
Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the their actions. (Qur’an 16:97, see also 4:124).
Woman according to the Qur’an is not blamed for Adam’s first mistake. Both were jointly wrong in their disobedience to God, both repented, and both were forgiven. (Qur’an 2:36, 7:20 – 24). In one verse in fact (20:121), Adam specifically, was blamed.
In terms of religious obligations, such as the Daily Prayers, Fasting, Poor-due, and Pilgrimage, woman is no different from man. In some cases indeed, woman has certain advantages over man. For example, the woman is exempted from the daily prayers and from fasting during her menstrual periods and forty days after childbirth. She is also exempted from fasting during her pregnancy and when she is nursing her baby if there is any threat to her health or her baby’s. If the missed fasting is obligatory (during the month of Ramadan), she can make up for the missed days whenever she can. She does not have to make up for the prayers missed for any of the above reasons. Although women can and did go into the mosque during the days of the prophet and thereafter attendance et the Friday congregational prayers is optional for them while it is mandatory for men (on Friday).
This is clearly a tender touch of the Islamic teachings for they are considerate of the fact that a woman may be nursing her baby or caring for him, and thus may be unable to go out to the mosque at the time of the prayers. They also take into account the physiological and psychological changes associated with her natural female functions.
One major objective of this try is to provide a fair evaluation of what Islam contributed (or failed to contribute) toward the restoration of woman’s dignity and rights. In order to achieve this objective, it may be useful to review briefly how women were treated in general in previous civilizations and religions, especially those which preceded Islam (Pre-610 C.E.). Part of the information provided here, however, describes the status of woman as late as the nineteenth century, more than twelve centuries after Islam.
Women in Ancient Civilization:Describing the status of the Indian woman, Encyclopedia Britannica states: In India, subjection was a cardinal principle. Day and night must women be held by their protectors in a state of dependence says Manu. The rule of inheritance was agnatic, that is descent traced through males to the exclusion of females.
In Hindu scriptures, the description of a good wife is as follows: “a woman whose mind, speech and body are kept in subjection, acquires high renown in this world, and, in the next, the same abode with her husband.”
In Athens, women were not better off than either the Indian or the Roman women.”Athenian women were always minors, subject to some male – to their father, to their brother, or to some of their male kin. Her consent in marriage was not generally thought to be necessary and “she was obliged to submit to the wishes of her parents, and receive from them her husband and her lord, even though he were stranger to her.”
A Roman wife was described by an historian as: “a babe, a minor, a ward, a person incapable of doing or acting anything according to her own individual taste, a person continually under the tutelage and guardianship of her husband.”
In the Encyclopedia Britannica, we find a summary of the legal status of women in the Roman civilization:
In Roman Law a woman was even in historic times completely dependent. If married she and her property passed into the power of her husband . . . the wife was the purchased property of her husband, and like a slave acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not exercise any civil or public office . could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make will or contract. Among the Scandinavian races women were:under perpetual tutelage, whether married or unmarried. As late as the Code of Christian V, at the end of the 17th Century, it was enacted that if a woman married without the consent of her tutor he might have, if he wished, administration and usufruct of her goods during her life.
According to the English Common Law: …all real property which a wife held at the time of a marriage became a possession of her husband. He was entitled to the rent from the land and to any profit which might be made from operating the estate during the joint life of the spouses. As time passed, the English courts devised means to forbid a husband’s transferring real property without the consent of his wife, but he still retained the right to manage it and to receive the money which it produced. As to a wife’s personal property, the husband’s power was complete. He had the right to spend it as he saw fit.
Only by the late nineteenth Century did the situation start to improve. “By a series of acts starting with the Married women’s Property Act in 1870, amended in 1882 and 1887, married women achieved the right to own property and to enter contracts on a par with spinsters, widows, and divorcees.” As late as the Nineteenth Century an authority in ancient law, Sir Henry Maine, wrote: “No society which preserves any tincture of Christian institutions is likely to restore to married women the personal liberty conferred on them by the Middle Roman Law.”
In his essay The Subjection of Women, John Stuart Mill wrote:
We are continually told that civilization and Christianity have restored to the woman her just rights. Meanwhile the wife is the actual bond-servant of her husband; no less so, as far as the legal obligation goes, than slaves commonly so called.
Before moving on to the Qur’anic decrees concerning the status of woman, a few Biblical decrees may shed more light on the subject, thus providing a better basis for an impartial evaluation. In the Mosaic Law, the wife was betrothed. Explaining this concept, the Encyclopedia Biblica states: “To betroth a wife to oneself meant simply to acquire possession of her by payment of the purchase money; the betrothed is a girl for whom the purchase money has been paid.” From the legal point of view, the consent of the girl was not necessary for the validation of her marriage. “The girl’s consent is unnecessary and the need for it is nowhere suggested in the Law.”
As to the right of divorce, we read in the Encyclopedia Biblica: “The woman being man’s property, his right to divorce her follows as a matter of course.” The right to divorce was held only by man. “In the Mosaic Law divorce was a privilege of the husband only …. ”
The position of the Christian Church until recent centuries seems to have been influenced by both the Mosaic Law and by the streams of thought that were dominant in its contemporary cultures. In their book, Marriage East and West, David and Vera Mace wrote:
Let no one suppose, either, that our Christian heritage is free of such slighting judgments. It would be hard to find anywhere a collection of more degrading references to the female sex than the early Church Fathers provide. Lecky, the famous historian, speaks of (these fierce incentives which form so conspicuous and so grotesque a portion of the writing of the Fathers . . . woman was represented as the door of hell, as the mother of all human ills. She should be ashamed at the very thought that she is a woman. She should live in continual penance on account of the curses she has brought upon the world. She should be ashamed of her dress, for it is the memorial of her fall. She should be especially ashamed of her beauty, for it is the most potent instrument of the devil). One of the most scathing of these attacks on woman is that of Tertullian: Do you know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; you are the first deserters of the divine law; you are she who persuades him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert – that is death – even the Sop of God had to die). Not only did the church affirm the inferior status of woman, it deprived her of legal rights she had previously enjoyed.
Be right back.
Bro,
Dalit is not lower cast ie Sudra but out caste ie Chandala. Anyway there is a scope of re interpretation of the verse it put as per Ram Charitra Manas. Ie Wild Dog(Dhole), Lower Rural Guy(Gwar Sudra), Animal like women(Pasu Nari), all are object of teaching/training/restrain. I did not want to offend any faith of Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims. But, yes Hindus are ready to remove or reinterpret the text. Welcome step. Same could be done with Muslims or not ? Was not in past also within Muslims, there were attempt to re interpret Islamic text ? Were not great people like Hazrat Darashkoh RA, killed, just for siding truth ? I am sorry again if i hurt anyone. For me hurting human heart is offence to the God. A Sufi poet said," raze mosque to the ground, raze temple to the ground, raze what so ever be razed, but Bulle Shah, do not break the heart of any one, beautiful lord lives in heart. " I am thankful that i live in a democracy and can say these things without fear. Had i been in Saudi Arabia, my throat would have been slit. I dont know that like animal of Dabiah, my face wold be turned to holy Qaba and Allah Hu Akbar be read then or not ? Human life sacrificed for blasphemy. But without doubt i can say Hindus and Sikhs are the biggest idiot people. There country is is run by a family owned firm. Daily their mother India is milked and their resources going to Swiss banks. Bigger fools are Indian Muslims, who marry their child daughter to aged Arabs, only for small time and for monitory gains. As Joker Naik wants, to make India a Salafi state, when India will have Muslim majority, Arabs will come here for sex tourism. With the legal sanctity. A religion which is more rigid outwardly, under the table /covertly most of the law breaking is done within that.
I am again sorry for using harsh words, but it is pain in me which comes out so forgive me. When Muslim neighbor of Hindu in India, justify rape of daughter in law by father in law, giving her as his wife, via fatwa. Why not Hindu Thinks of Draupadi being saved by Lord Krishna in court from being nude publicly. Time is for you Hindus to save Muslims girls from the demons, thinking them as your own, like lord Krishna, not like Bhishma. They are not "others" for you that you make fun of them. But your ruler does appeasement for votes. you are enslaved by your own fellow countrymen.
"ugly reality of Islam" lol
Research on Ramcharitamanas has revealed that the verses which show dalits and women in poor light weren't written by Tulsidas but were added after 17th century.There has been a outcry to remove those verses from an otherwise beautiful piece of literature.Can you imagine the same for the rest of the books?
Rama has said to Laxman after fall of Ravana-"This Golden Lanka doesn't allure me.Janani Janmabhoomischa Swargadapi Gariasi(Mother and Motherland are higher than heaven)".If every son sees his mother in that light,can anyone dare to disrespect women?
But more importantly,how many Hindus follow the verses of Ramcharitamanas literally?10?20?They would be crazy people who refer to a book before taking any decision in their life.
Because there is more to muslims than Islam.Majority of muslims in many places e.g. India,Bangladesh don't know Arabic.Yet they can recite the Quran verses-they just memorize it by rote!So it's highly possible they don't know the meaning of many of those verses.A few days ago,I was talking to a Bangladeshi lady now working in Italy.She wears the Hijab,observes Ramzan but she hadn't read most of the Quran!She only knew a few verses!
So this lady is a muslim by practice and identity,but obviously she doesn't know the ugly reality of Islam.She is just following what her Imam/family told her and mistaking it for Islam.I've spoken to a number of such people in the past.
Is there a reason to hate such people?
But there is a reason to hate the ideology that can inspire people to kill in the utopia that they'll get 72 virgins in paradise.
In Genesis(Judeo-Christian), curse of Eve is there, Ram CharitraManas(Hindus) have animals and women in same class,Guru Granth Sahib(Sikhs) has husband following wife as unclean. I think male preacher tell male audience , to stay away from opposite sex related ,if go to the God way. Female must take it to stay away from lust of male. So what Maulana Rumi, may be telling could have spiritual meaning for both male and female. He was Sunni i think, while at present Shia Iran no one forces his views on other. Some views of Mr Sina on women could be seen her http://alisina.org/love-is-not-enough/
But Hindus, Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Sufis, Atheist do not force their view on others or deprive women of their human rights with state sponsorship.
Although English is not my native language, but I can swear that
this vague paragraph of yours is closer to what I understood than
to what you are saying now.
All books are written by men, there is no "Book of the Universe".
After that it depends on the subject of the book.
If you say Physics,Cosmology,Biology,Chemistry,Medicine-growing disciplines- then yes. If literature or painting and similar Arts-evolving disciplines- then the question is invalid. You can't compare a Keats' to an Eliots' or a Rafaels' with a Picassos'.
In the former case yes, because knowledge increases with time. A book written by a specialist today in a growing discipline would be better than what was written by people in the 1st Century or the 7th Century because of the simple fact he knows more than they did.
J. Philippe Rushton's study
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-405056/Me…
I am not talking about hadith , you have already read rebuttals still blowing your trumpet
http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women…
That is not the western culture. That is the side effect of freedom. It is much better to be free and have this side effect than be treated like animal as women are in Islamic countries.
And you have to tell us who conducted the test that women are less intelligent than men.
This is true in Islamic countries where women are not given the same opportunities. From childhood girls are treated as less desired and even when it comes to eating, boys get better nutrition than girls. But when the field is level women have shown to be equal in intelligence to men. In Iran, because there is no hope for women, more girls strive to get a higher education, so they can get out of Iran. As the result there are more women graduates than men.
Do this test of intelligence in any country where boys and girls study in the same school and sit for the same exam. Do still men excel women? No! And that alone proves Muhammad was a liar.
If your parameter of superiority is physical strength, sure men are superior to women.But then again you have to admit that mules are far superior to men.
Alas your brain is on Islam.
Western Culture for Women ==> Nu-dist, bo-obs out, pu-bs, social whor-es , professional whor-es, es-corts, or-gy, swing-ers ,stri-ptease ∞
Best places for women! Thanks for helping !
whatever it says of my mindset…… you may have found the message i posted useful i feel. Islam is like a gangrene.
After divorce man is completely lost and women get glow and vitality on her face ??? Who conducted this test? On how many people ? Who concluded ?
I think you are also getting qualified for writing up very own story and call it proof , truth whatever lol
But I meant it thus: It is this constant denial and vilifying of Islam-critics DONE BY MUSLIMS!!! and so on. And I meant that the Islam-critics say it out of concern, while the Muslims constantly contribute their motivation to hate of Islam, and Muslims, only.
So you think that picture is a set up? Obviously you have never been in a Muslim country. That picture is taken in Afghanistan. Look at the wall and the street. Those bags are the belongings of this woman. She is guarding them. I added another similar picture to the post.
Don't you notice that you drifted away from the main point?
I am talking about the picture above, and I said it does not
look like it is offering any sympathy to the woman, instead it is
ridiculing her. There was no Afghani woman sitting among
trash, and accidentally a photographer spotted her and shot
a picture. No, this picture was made up, someone accumulated
garbage, and another dressed like a trash bag, and another
took this picture.
You do not have to explain your method in fighting the evil of Islam
over and over, I have memorized it. I am just saying (as Demsci
suggested) that the impulse looks more out of hate instead of help
That image is the reality for Muslim women in most Islamic countries to a different degree. Instead of hiding it let us face it. Instead of shooting the messenger let us go to the root cause of the problem and solve it. That woman and millions of others like her are victims of Islam. By defending Islam you are mocking her plight. You are condemning her and her daughters and all the future generations of women to that fate.
Meanwhile, you enjoy the freedom that the western kafir countries have provided for you. If not for whistle blowers like us soon you and your daughters and grand daughters will lose that freedom too.
It is time for Muslims to pull their heads out of the sand or their rear orifice, wherever they have hidden it, and realize they are responsible for their own misery and the misery that they bring to the world. it is time that they understand they are the plague of the world, the disease of mankind.
Ignorance is forgivable but willful ignorance is not. Since Muslims have no intention to come to their senses, my goal is to awaken the non-Muslims so they become aware that Islam is the enemy and Muslims are the agents of this enemy.
My goal is simple. I want to help Muslims to get cured from their madness that is threatening the survival of our freedom and civilization and maybe our species. But if that fails I want the rest of people to erect a wall of resistance between themselves and the followers of this demonic faith. When someone’s disease can pose a threat to others we quarantine them. If Muslims insist in this madness we should do the same. Since you are unable to live in peace with us and adamant to destroy our world, we have to separate ourselves from you. You go back to your Islamic countries and live us alone. The Earth is not for you to conquer and dominate. Your devil Allah is not the owner of the world.
We are here to help. Our job is to save you and save the world from the virus that you carry. We are not against you, we are against your disease – the mental and spiritual disease called Islam.
It is really not that difficult to ban Islam. Once we have enough people to elect an anti Islam government, all we have to do is to pass a law saying any religion or ideology that promotes ideas contrary to our constitution is considered subversive and is banned. That is all we need in order to declare Islam illegal. It will happen. Geert Wilder’s party came third in the last election. It is only a matter of time and more awakening for a completely anti Islam government to come to power. Once that happens in one country, it will happen in more and Islam’s days in the West will be numbered.
In the Islamic countries Muslim will leave Islam in drove because of the oppression and because of the spread of truth.
"It is this constant denial and vilifying of Islam-critics when they only point out what Mohammed said and did that seems wrong to me. As if they only say it out of hate, instead of being offended by this condescending attitude towards women."
Exactly, and this is the main reason for my dispute with Sina. The purpose of
the image above is degrading, insulting and contempting Muslim women.
It is not (as if), but it is deliberatly designed and made for this purpose only.
It doesn't offer any help or sympathy to the victim, instead it ridicules her.
Okay, the problem then are the religious women. What do you do to convince them that they are wrong. I would not have given a damn if they kept their views to themselves. If some people enjoy masochism, why should I intervene? The problem is that they want to impose that view on everyone, and with the help of their religious men use violence, beat and throw acid at the face of other women to force them into submission. How do we stop that? My answer is to show them Islam is a lie and Muhammad was a deceiver. There is no other way.
As for the first category, i.e the liberated group, they can be divided in two sub groups. One group does not care about religion and just goes by this name because it is a social thing. The second group is utterly ignorant of Islam. They project their own ideas on Islam and think the real Islam is different from what Muslims practice. My family belonged to this group. My mother, although Muslim, hardly wore chador unless when she went to the grocery store around the corner and did not want to dress up. (That is before the Islamic revolution)
The fact is that the religious Muslims have got it right. In a confrontation between them and the ignorant Muslims the religious group always wins. You can argue your case but when they put the Quran in front of your nose and ask you to read it you will have to accept what they say because you have already disarmed yourself by accepting the Quran as the authority.
The only way to win is to tell them we don’t believe the Quran is from God. We believe Muhammad was a liar and the Quran is his book of hallucination.Therefore, we donn’t recognize this book as authority, so don’t even quote it. The only authority we acknowledge is reason and logic. Yes they are flawed but they are the only ones that work.
Which book of (Universe) you mean? there are plenty of them, and they all
claim that they are books of Universe.
There are certainly Universal Laws, and I personally believe in them cause
they always work with me, against me and for me. But I do not mean
those ancient books written by men.
"The reason women gained equality in western countries is because the power of the patriarchal religions was diminished".
AHA……now I started to like you better, because you admitted that
Christianity also suppressed women.
The Muslim women are three groups:
The first one are those who are completely liberated and have
control of their own lives. Yet those are not religious.
The second group are the poor, illiterate and helpless.
The third group are the religious women, who accept to be
door mats and stepped on with pleasure, and convince themselves
that this is a good thing and start to create excuses that all of this
works for their benifit (like the woman who sent you an email).
Taking your “sections” in turn:
#1. So you don't care about what other believe, Hmmm? Well, fair enough but it's then a bit rich to take US to task for not caring about your beliefs!
Then you move onto the idea of imposition of beliefs: Now, let's start with Islam's position. One could argue that Islam does not “impose” its beliefs on anyone – after all non-Muslims are permitted to be Dhimmis with the proviso that they strictly adhere to their Dhimmah. But all this proves is that Islam is not just a religion, it is, as Muslims proudly assert a total way of life. Therefore, Islam does seek to impose itself on all people.
What of the West? Does the west impose a Dhimmah on Muslims? No. Does the west mandate that Muslims interact with its society on it's own terms? No (apart from keeping to the law – and even that is arguable at times).
But here is the crux: what we are really talking about are freedoms: the right to do as you want – limited by other peoples' equal rights of course. Thus in one sense all freedoms are necessarily limited since this actually creates the greatest degree of freedom overall. The problem with this is when one group or another believe they have a “god given right to…” whatever and demand the “freedom” to do this – even if it is to the detriment of the freedom of society as a whole.
#2. Just a short point here. Why do you expect us to provide sources when you never do? You state that Wilders hates Muslims – with no reference. The expression here is “hoist by your own petard”.
#3,4 & 5. Play the ball not the man!
correction. I mean my approach is NOT to reject anything another person says.
Thanks for giving me a mirror to look in, so to speak.
But Amin, my approach is certainly to reject anything another person says, simply because (s)he does not back up his/ her story with a detailed proof/ reasoning. But when I afterwards her an alternative, better story about the same topic, then I am open to that too! And I change my opinion, judgement! How can that be wrong?
If you DO reject anything that is not supported by evidence or good reasoning, is n't that the opposite of being gullible? Why, people knowing you can deceive/ manipulate you by telling you something true, knowing you will reject it, and as a result believe in something else/ old on the issue, or in the opposite of what they tell you.
Yes! both of us are allowed to spew nonsens, but also our honest, considered opinions. without giving evidence all the time. Although that helps, I admit. But it is not compulsory.
And you are doing ad hominem attacks; calling me taking the bisquit and being messed up. But I recommend concentrating on the message, not the messenger. To me trying to discredit the messenger means you use some sort of "crutch" to support your opinion. To me it is better, stronger, if your opinion stands on it's own merits.
I can ask; please explain where I am messed up. and say: otherwise this part of your reply has no meaning.
And in positive psychology it is customary to comment on a person's strong points, not his failings, or only his failings. You, for instance, can listen and reason very well and inspire other people to great answers.
Wrong ! It was proven that women are smarter than men, and a woman
does not need a man to get by. Proof: after a divorce, the man is
completely lost, and doesn't know how to manage his life…..that's why we
see divorced men always try to get back to their ex-wives. A man stabbed
his wife forty time because she brought to him the divorce papers, why?
because his life is a chaos without her. (this happened in the U.S.A)
The opposite with the woman……after the divorce, she thrives, and everyone
can notice the glow and vitality on her face, then she starts to achieve one
success after the other, things she couldn't do before, not because she lacks
intelligence, but because she was suppressed by her man.
Briefly…..a woman does not need a man to have a good life,
a man is a tramp without a woman .
Well,,,,,,,,with my apologies to men…..that's ok
The reason women gained equality in western countries is because the power of the patriarchal religions was diminished. This has to happen with Islam or women will be slaves forever. When women are so brainwashed that think all their body is the extension of their vagina, they can't become free. They even fight for their enslavement and call it liberation. How forcing women into a shroud, white they are still alive can be liberating, and yet the brainwashing made many of them say so. How polygamy for men can be liberating for women? Yet many Muslim women defend it. I received an email from a Muslim woman who tried to convince me women are deficient in intelligence just to prove Muhammad was right. Go figure!
Rational people are not followers. You are a follower of Muhammad and judge others by your standard.
I don't have the sources available with me right now, and frankly
I shall not bother to find them. You don't have to believe what
I say……….search and you will find.
Women have been treated badly all the time and in all cultures and religions.
It is only in the last century when women started to fight for their rights and
freedom, and they achieved a great success in the advanced countries like
America and Europe. Nobody gave the women their rights here; they had
to fight for them.
In the poor, third world countries, women are completely helpless. Even
in some advanced countries, women are still under the control of men.
I had a Japanese neighbor, she told me that females are taught since
their childhood to bow their heads to men.
The image above is for an Afghani woman (although I am certain that
the character in the picture is an actor or actress), we all know this
country is one of the most backward countries.
In the Arab countries, women are much more liberated than many other
places, Korea for example.
". . . I have countered this . . . you simply repeat the assertion. All are biased sources. However – each evidence persevered to reviewed on its own merit."
———–
Yep! Anything that makes Islam look bad, anything that proves what Ali Sina and jihadwatch.org are saying, are biased sources, or lies, or otherwise misunderstood. You know what? You are not interested in proofs; You are only interested in somehow shut this site down.
It is a total waste of time to post proofs for you to look at, unnecessarily making these threads longer. Proofs and references are available all over the internet, including at this site. If someone wants to be dead sure, s/he can look in the Islamic sources themselves. Whoever is unconvinced, doen't need to come here. Simple.
Those who don't study their beliefs ridicule it. You probably think that the hippy portrayal of Shiva is funny, but it also needs to be realized that it is what the person learns from the story, is important, not how the God was portrayed. God does not mind what we say about him, as long as we end up being satisfied with our spirituality.
“I doubt you know what you are saying . . . Sina does not believe in “freedoms” where Muslims are concerned. ”
That is true. i am opposed giving freedom to ideologies that promote hate and are supremacists and want to dominate others. Just as it would be folly to allow a wolf to mingle among the sheep freely, it is also a mistake to let ideologies such as Islam, Nazism and communism to advance. Once they become strong they will take away all freedoms. That is why Islam must be banned and declared an illegal creed. I support closing down the mosques. If any Muslim is caught in anti democratic activities, even in promoting Islam subversively, he should be sent back to his country of origin. As for the rest, they should be reeducated and weaned from Islam. The media must educate the public about Islam. Since Islam is a lie, the only way to stop it is to tell the truth about it.
But I advocate taking strong measures against the spread of Islam. Banning Islam as a subversive political ideology that is hostile to democracy and shutting down the mosques, are constructive steps in eradicating this evil doctrine.
I knew the answer to his question, so I answered it. Nothing wrong with that!
Well, if that were true, Sikh philosophy should be more like Islam's, right! It should have ideas like judgement day, afterlife, etc, and it should not have concepts like karma, reincarnation, illusion etc. But that is not the case. It is Hinduism that has all these concepts…. so Sikhism is a lot more close to Hinduism than Islam.
Women are definitely intelligent than morons but what I said as in general.
<a href ="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton"> J. Philippe Rushton is Canadian psychology professor who has done this honorable job.
Women are definitely intelligent than morons but what I said as in general.
<a href ="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton" > J. Philippe Rushton is Canadian psychology professor who has done this honorable job.
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 6 :: Hadith 301
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o ‘Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”
"And it is only extremely stubborn, not good, to reject all opinions without evidence, if you seek for truth and justice, I might add. "
Are you bloody serious . . . huh? concentrate on this . . . do you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets say it is your opinion that someone is guilty of something . . . do you honestly think that is good enough to prosecute such person?
I thought knowTheEnemy comes out with dumb things . . . what you have said takes the biscuit. That is deeply ignorant
– – – –
"Giving opinion, while lacking proper knowledge according to opponents, is also within our democratic rights."
But no one is taking this RIGHT away from you – are they. You can spew as much nonsense as you like . . . people will simply either counter it or laugh the hell way – and not take you seriously.
– – –
" You keep asking for evidence and examples. Good. Well. If I do my homework, I can give much evidence and clues. And not only me, other counterjihadists can flood you with evidence, backing well many conclusions they present. "
Yet you haven't given any . . . simply say this makes you look bad . . . as it is admittance.
– – – –
"Before soon we will be asking much evidence from you too. When we present articles, and they are on FFI and Jihad Watch and MEMRI-TV provides us with declarations of influential authoritative Muslims. Who time and again confirm what Robert Spencer and Ali Sina claim is within the tenets of Islam. "
. . . I have countered this . . . you simply repeat the assertion. All are biased sources. However – each evidence persevered to reviewed on its own merit.
– – –
"Nonie Darwish pointed out these tenets of Islam: http://frontpagemag.com/2010/nonie-darwish/sharia…
No – she points out her version of them . . . some are clearly wrong. Also she does NOT references where she got these from . . . this is SIMPLY a list. As usual – all evidence missing.
Example:
"18- A non-Muslim cannot rule — even over a non-Muslim minority."
Not true – A non-Muslim cannot become head of sate of a Muslim country . . . yet Muslims afford the minorities autonomous rule. Now – In practice this often has been poor – but that doesn't change the fact it does.
– – –
"20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and can be consummated at age 8 or 9."
Again as mentioned – not true . . . In Hanafi fiqh – age limit of past puberty is the norm.
– – –
"10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim, but will get it for killing a Muslim."
An ABSOLUTE lie. . .
– – –
"3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape."
COMPLETE lie . . else what is the point . . . this is an OBVIOUS lie.
– – –
I can go on . . . no wonder you are messed up!
Good, let Moonshadow comment on that. She is the one in denial that Islam is a misogynist religion.
Your stupid census was taken probably by a cleric in Mecca or maybe a “scholar” from al Azhar.
Did you bother to read what I said . . . or were you simply interested in stating your piece.
All that you said simply tells me of your mindset and nothing more. I am not interested in your opinions.
Heavy criticism indeed. I have to consider your words carefully and learn from them. I am reeling.
But ….. I can react to a few things you say: You keep asking for evidence and examples. Good. Well. If I do my homework, I can give much evidence and clues. And not only me, other counterjihadists can flood you with evidence, backing well many conclusions they present.
But for both Muslims and Counterjihadists goes, in my opinion, that even one spreads rumours, that is within our democratic rights. Giving opinion, while lacking proper knowledge according to opponents, is also within our democratic rights. Just as counter-arguments by you are. We can also express opinions without evidence. And it is only extremely stubborn, not good, to reject all opinions without evidence, if you seek for truth and justice, I might add.
Before soon we will be asking much evidence from you too. When we present articles, and they are on FFI and Jihad Watch and MEMRI-TV provides us with declarations of influential authoritative Muslims. Who time and again confirm what Robert Spencer and Ali Sina claim is within the tenets of Islam.
Hitler was democratically elected, but after the burning of the Reichstag, I believe in 1933, he declared marshall law and he became a totalitarian dictator. But because he had been democratically elected the Germans after the war had this debate I talked about. If it did not take place, it should have taken place, because it was about ensuring that Democracy was never in this way abolished again.
Nonie Darwish pointed out these tenets of Islam:
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/nonie-darwish/sharia…
@ aminriadh
What does a sane person do when his leg is affected with gangrene?
Islam is like gangrene. If a person is irredeemably lost to Islam – he is not to be hated, but the infected parts have to be dealt with. There is no love or hate there.
It is because the Muslims can be redeemed and brought back from Islam – there is hope – that the Muslims are not hated – only the cancerous ideology called Islam is hated.
Is book from university is challenge to to a book from universe ?
You hate both . . . Islam and Muslims. In following Sina – he has more than confused you.
You cannot even state your name and faith – with honour and dignity they deserve – yet you hide behind psuedonym and hate monger against Muslims.
lol
How can you hate a movement, but not it's followers?
———–
Definition of a follower: An individual, who believes in a movement. He may have been conditioned or brainwashed to believe in the movement. But he is a separate entity from the movement. That is why one can hate a movement, but not its followers.
***********
How can you hate an ingredient, but not a product which is made from that ingredient
———–
The ingredient is Islam, but the product made from that ingredient is in the head of the follower. The product is NOT the follower. As I said earlier, the follower is an individual (a human being), and it IS possible to take that product out of his head. If some scientist invents a machine, where the push of a button, would wipe out all Islamic teachings from the head of Muslims overnight, those individuals would no longer be the same, and society will start changing drastically because the Islamic product would no longer be in the heads of Muslims.
"No! that is NOT true."
See how you squeal! But lying about others – you find it so easy to do! Even when presented with evidence to the contrary – you still maintain your lies.
Yet how quickly you came out protest your own [alleged] faith.
Ok, I agree that Dr. Sina has said all those harsh things, and I understand that you are upset. Here is what you are missing however-
If Dr. Sina 'hates' Muslims (the individuals), why do you think he makes so much effort to wean them off Islam? Why does he spend hours day after day everyday, and has been doing this ever since he started the website! Why does he spend so much time studying Islam and analyzing what it says? Why did he make any effort to study the effects of Islam on Muslims? Why does he keep doing all this when all he gets in return is the label 'hater'; the funds that he gets barely cover 20 % of the cost of this site. Who in his right mind would do all this for a group that he 'hates'?? A little bit of reasoning should be sufficent for a person to realize that far from 'hating', he actually cares about Muslims far more than those so called leaders who pamper Islam, and don't want to utter anything that may give them the label of 'Islamophobe'.
Dr. Sina uses harsh words, but it is the 'intent' that matters, not the words.
Before tenth Guru Sikhism was more like sect of Sufism in Islam right ? Guru Nanak was Muslim convert and he never seek advice of any Hindu scholar in his lifetime but a Muslim Sufi Fared. I read somewhere that was only tenth guru who made Sikhism as different religion which is inspired by monotheism in Islam.
No! that is NOT true. The Sikhs keep hair simply because their tenth Guru told them to do so. There is no requirement to eradicate Islam, or even think low of it. The only thing that Islam has to do with the tenth Guru is that it acted as a catalyst that started his martial movement (Khalsa).
For Gandhi of India, it was hate sin not sinner, but one who hates Kuffar(non Islamist), hating Kafir(non Muslim) is OK, as per that thought, so one has to hate human if Human does not agree to one deemed universal view. This proved that Infidels or Kafirs are subject of hate due to their non Islamic thought.
I was once thought in a mosque by a Sufi, that from the Land, where Islam was started, will a sect of Islam emerge, who will destroy Islam, As prophet PBUH said. Islam does not need any enemy to destroy it when Salafi/Wahabis are there. Remaining work will be done by Tablighi Jamat(preaching community) affiliated to Deoband.
Sometimes i feel that weather prophet ever started a faith or his followers just started present day Islam, with gross misinterpretations of holy Quran. Those who tried to interpret it correctly, often was killed or exiled, terming him/her as apostate.
Just a view, as I may be wrong.
I read about your hippy portrayal of GOD Shiva and your reasoning about why you hate Muslims.
Look at me I have stopped loling for a bit.
I don't hate other faith people. I found them weak in their belief.I don't find them superior enough to hate. They ridicule their own belief. They don't even know what they believe. They transform , overrule anything according to their personal interests. They criticize others for worst they have for them.
""I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam" "
Sina says that – then he will make a contradictory statement . . . often hating Islam equals hating Muslims. In the same Wiki page did you miss this, for example:
"In September 2009 Wilders proposed to put a tax on Hijab wearing by Muslim women. He suggested women could purchase a license at a cost of €1000 and that the money raised could be used in projects beneficial to women's emancipation."
This simply targets Muslims – else a head covering is worn by many women.
– – –
"It is no shame to learn from you, you are quite formidable and scary, and making good points on occasion too,
but I hope you do not censor people who speak less than perfect English. Or people who humbly admit the topic is difficult for them."
Huh? – This is NOT my site – hence I cannot censor anyone – even if I wanted too.
– – –
"You talked about Ali Sina not in favor of freedom for Muslims. But he would be in favor of that, if he had not thought that Muslims themselves are not in favor of freedom of other peoples enough, when Muslims would have power. "
Not true . . . take for example Muslims living and participating in West. Those that live in perfect harmony . . . he makes ABSOLUTELY no distinction between them and the trouble making extremists.
In one of his "debates" or articles – he vilified a woman for taking someone to court over being harassed. He portioned the blame on to her.
– – – –
"It is a bit like the debate in Germany many years ago. If we are convinced that Nazi's want to destroy democracy can we give them the chance to do so in a democratic way. "
What debate? Hitler WAS a democratic leader . . . extremists far-right racist groups ARE NOT BANNED IN EUROPE.
– – – –
"And now I am only comparing one aspect of Nazism, preference of a totalitarian political system, with tenets of Islam, which indicate also a totalitarian state,"
Which tenets . . . point them out . . . failure to do so would mean you are simply spreading rumours and you DO NOT HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
It is telling that you did not bother to back your spiel – it justifiably to think that if you can come to such conclusions – then you have the evidence all there. . . else you making things up.
– – –
"And Ali Sina is certainly more in favor of this than are his Muslims opponents. "
And your evidence – for making such claims?
– – –
On an average 90 % people are dumb !
8-9 % are average
1-2 % males are intelligent
0.1 % females are intelligent
women are generally less intelligent than men
Males have more brain tissue than females on average
General intelligence factor called the g-factor, Males surpassed females by an average of 3.6 IQ points.
"But it is good that it is widely known that this IS what the prophet of Islam said, according to Sahih Hadith of Bukhari. And let all people, Muslims, Politically-correct, counter-jihadist get informed of it and take it from there. "
A few references would help. . . "widely known" means nothing. Claiming something to widely know without proof – is considered fallacious.
– – –
"It is this constant denial and vilifying of Islam-critics when they only point out what Mohammed said and did that seems wrong to me. "
Huh? Read that back to yourself – what does the last bit mean?
– – –
"But here we see that a condescending attitude towards women came from "the prophet's mouth" itself. "
Here we have seen nothing. . . else where is it?
"This is very well known, and it is used often even in the Arabic movies
and series. Mohammad actually said that women are deficient in
intelligence"
Right . . . where? That was the question . . which you missed.
– – –
I don't get you – you claim all sorts of things. Limaza?
In wikipedia it says:
" Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views by saying, "I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam"
And of course I heard him state this many times. He WAS acguitted by the judges last year, precisely because of this stance. Can you give proof of him stating something to the contrary? The judges couldn't. Oh, of course, now you want me to look up the court's proceedings. Well, anybody who doubts me can do that.
It is no shame to learn from you, you are quite formidable and scary, and making good points on occasion too,
but I hope you do not censor people who speak less than perfect English. Or people who humbly admit the topic is difficult for them.
You talked about Ali Sina not in favor of freedom for Muslims. But he would be in favor of that, if he had not thought that Muslims themselves are not in favor of freedom of other peoples enough, when Muslims would have power.
It is a bit like the debate in Germany many years ago. If we are convinced that Nazi's want to destroy democracy can we give them the chance to do so in a democratic way.
And now I am only comparing one aspect of Nazism, preference of a totalitarian political system, with tenets of Islam, which indicate also a totalitarian state, at the detriment of democratic states and institutions. I am not even condemning it, just saying that it seems that part of Islam and part of Muslims do seem to prefer totalitarian states over democratic ones. I am just saying that a part of the Muslims seem to prefer laws in clear contradiction to democratic laws.
Of course I never would dream of imposing my views on society. I am in favor of the Democratic system, which uses many independent minds, as opposed to totalitarian systems, using only the minds of the elite, that do try to impose their views on society, on majorities.
I am in favor of following the majority almost but completely where it leads. and at the same time to protect the rights of minorities and individuals. And Ali Sina is certainly more in favor of this than are his Muslims opponents.
"And that is the full system of Democratic thoughts, laws, values, principles. And human rights. And when Islam contradicts and threathens or impedes those, then I choose for Ali Sina over his opponents on many issues. "
I doubt you know what you are saying . . . Sina does not believe in "freedoms" where Muslims are concerned.
"And human rights. And when Islam contradicts and threathens or impedes those"
I don't care what you believe in . . . but you have no right to impose that on others. . . or do you?
Hence what you say don't make much sense.
Either you believe in limited sense of Freedom or you don't . . . many skirt around this – and end up with 2 faced views.
– – –
"This is my attitude too. It is also the attitude of my countryman Geert Wilders, who openly states this time and again. "
No he doesn't – else quote his view – what YOU claim he says – that without backing it up with his actual quotes – is simply meaningless.
– – – –
"As I said, it is difficult for me to think it all the way through, but for now I am with KnowTheEnemy"
KnowTheEnemy – (here people change many names to post) – in my opinion doesn't know much. . . and has admitted as such as well.
A cowardly person . . . he has trouble stating his name and beliefs!
– – –
"What I like to know is, are many or most or all Muslims in agreement with many die-hard counterjihadists who are of the opinion that to distinguish between Islam and Muslims is completely wrong and that in a sense all Muslims are guilty? "
You say a lot – but all doesn't make clear sense. . . . look at this question – you could have phrased it far shorter and clearer. Bad English!
– – –
"The issue you discuss is very difficult for me. "
You said it!
Correction. The word "guilty" I like to replace with "responsible". In the question:
Are Muslims in agreement with counterjihadists that distinguishing between Islam and Muslims is wrong and that all Muslims …. are "responsible" (for adhering to Islam).
I hope I may respond too. I have never claimed Ali Sina is my guru. But I can agree with him on many issues.
The issue you discuss is very difficult for me. I am like KnowTheEnemy in this. But I come from something positive, that is in my view, a Better Alternative To Islam, (and then only parts of Islam.)
And that is the full system of Democratic thoughts, laws, values, principles. And human rights. And when Islam contradicts and threathens or impedes those, then I choose for Ali Sina over his opponents on many issues.
Yes, in Holland where I live many question this attitude of "Hate/ Dislike Islam, but love/ accept/ respect the Muslims". Although it is a Christian saying to "Hate the sin, love the sinner".
This is my attitude too. It is also the attitude of my countryman Geert Wilders, who openly states this time and again. And when he was on trial for insulting groups of people last year, he was acquitted. By judges, but earlier even prosecutors had stated that Wilders did not insult PEOPLE, but only a religion, which was not punishable by democratic law.
Even in political parties, like the socialists, even among my own Christian family, even among many, many counter-jihadists, posting on forums, the attitude of "Hate/ debunk Islam, love/ accept the Muslims" is vehemently questioned and rejected and attacked and ridiculed as you did in your post, Ali.
As I said, it is difficult for me to think it all the way through, but for now I am with KnowTheEnemy on this; Hate Islam, love/ accept the Muslims. But, remember, this means we do accept/ respect most Muslims, we do not paint them all with the same brush.
What I like to know is, are many or most or all Muslims in agreement with many die-hard counterjihadists who are of the opinion that to distinguish between Islam and Muslims is completely wrong and that in a sense all Muslims are guilty? Are the people in between who do distinguish between Islam and Muslims equally rejected by both sides, Muslims and counter-jihadists, who both do not so distinguish?
Glad that you admitted that.
I can accept that contemporary Jews, Romans, all humans may well have been "not any better" too.
But it is good that it is widely known that this IS what the prophet of Islam said, according to Sahih Hadith of Bukhari. And let all people, Muslims, Politically-correct, counter-jihadist get informed of it and take it from there.
It is this constant denial and vilifying of Islam-critics when they only point out what Mohammed said and did that seems wrong to me. As if they only say it out of hate, instead of being offended by this condescending attitude towards women.
So often it is said by both Islam-apologists and ignorant political-correct people that what is considered bad influence of Islam on the attitude towards women should only be considered to be of cultural, interpretational, nature. But here we see that a condescending attitude towards women came from "the prophet's mouth" itself.
"If the Hindus were in fact ‘diseased mad’, ‘dirty- who never took showers’, ‘scumbags’, then you would be simply expressing a truth. You cannot be called a hater. "
Hang on . . so you are agreeing with this? Sina calls this to ALL Muslims – without exception. And all such generalisations . . . are illogical and wrong in every way. Statistically impossible, morally completely wrong.
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"Secondly, you are totally refusing to see what Dr. Sina is trying to convey regarding Muslims. "
And what is that . . . what if I said you are completely refusing to see the truth about Islam? . . . and blah blah blah. . .
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"Don't you think a person could be influenced by things in addition to Hinduism/ Sikhism? "
Again you avoided what was asked . . . and you have asked this meaningless question. Both are separate religions. . . again you didn't have the guts to say what you are.
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"Quran referring to Earth as flat' has nothing to do with hatred. It is a totally different topic. "
Yes it does . . . this is why despite all evidence that you are wrong – the only reason YOU cling on to this bogus notion is no other than your HATRED.
That is why you have signed up to Sina. . . .
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He, who has no academic validity – and as a small fry has not been in media limelight . . . at large he would be dismissed as a mere hate monger. That is what he is.
Especially if that terrible "article" is to go by . . . and as for the book. . . !
This is very well known, and it is used often even in the Arabic movies
and series. Mohammad actually said that women are deficient in
intelligence, and for this reason two women are equal to one man
as witnesses. Mohammad also said that women are deficient in
religion, because of her monthly period………during this time, she
is not allowed to pray or fast.
Jews are not any better, when it comes to the ill treatment of women.
In those days, they used to throw the woman out side the house
during that time, and admitted her back when she is "clean"'
@knowTheEnemy. How can you hate a movement, but not it's followers? Please explain which came first. Islam or Muslims?
If someone is following and practising an ideology which is reprehensible, then naturally, the followers of that ideology must also be party to the proceedings as they are a by product of that environment and must be reprehensible. If you don't like a movement but like it's followers, this is known as hypocrisy.
Exactly, where are you deducing your logic from?
How can you hate an ingredient but not a product which is made from that ingredient?
Ali Sina is your Guru, so you must defend him at any cost, and that being the case, defend this from him and convince us you guys don't hate Muslims:
"This Muslim (I find the word "Muslim" very derogatory and insulting. It is synonymous to stupid, barbarian, thug, arrogant, brain dead, zombie, hooligan, goon, shameless, savage and many other ignoble things. I don’t know whether this most disgusting word elicits the same meanings in you or not. So when I want to show my despise of someone I call him "Muslim". But because Muslims are stupid, they don’t know all these things and they are proud of this name. This is a win/win situation because I insult them and they are happy and thank me for it. Isn't that smart?"
"As long as Muslims are Muslims they do not deserve to be treated in accordance to the Universal Declaration of Human Right"
"Send all the Muslims out of the West. They are all the same. Disgusting is a mild word".
"Yes I have proof and have proven that all the Muslims are evil to the degree that they follow Muhammad".
"You must be rounded up and sent to where you came from. Leave Islam or leave our country. This must become the slogan in all the Western countries".
"They would then have to spit or piss on a Koran, and then stomp on it with their feet. (I think that would probably be enough, but if anyone has any better ideas, I'd love to hear them)".
“It is not an insult to say Muslims are not humans"
“They must be colonized and ruled with iron fist”
"This is how the world is gradually coming to see Muslims – a bunch of Miscreant, Uneducated, Scoundrel, Lazy, Ignoramus Morons. How can you be proud when you know everyone else thinks you are a zombie follower of a pedophile? Is there anything more embarrassing than that"?
So, unless you have serious learning disabilities and are defunct in understanding the English language knowTheEnemy, I expect you to give a straight answer which for any normal sane unbiased person would say, WTF have I been doing following this hate monger?
I suggest you go back to your roots and stick to either Sikhism or Hinduism. Keep the poison of Ali Sina away from yourself.
"These are the views of the two greatest Muslim luminaries. No other Muslim ever rose to their rank and knowledge. If this is how Ghazzali and Rumi thought of women, why should we expect anything better from ordinary Muslims?"
Blah . . . Blah . . . Blah. And where did you get that from? Yes Ghazali and Rumi are undoubtedly 2 great Muslim personalities. . . " No other Muslim ever rose to their rank and knowledge. "
This is Sina's own thoughts – just to give some pizzazz to the article.
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Abu Hanfiah, Sahfi, Mailk and Ibn Hanbal – in Fiqh are regarded above Ghazzali and Rumi. Ghazzali himself was a follower of Shafi and Ashari school of thought. This above others is the regarded as the highest filed knowledge – as it combines many fields . . . study of Quran, Hadith, Fiqh, Language and Linguistics, History, Theology, Philosophy, Logic (albeit – Greek Classical) . . . and etc. Even Suyuti is a "bigger" name than Ghazzali.
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In the field of Hadith studies – again both of these names are not known.
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Rumi – was better know for his Sufism. . . although well know and a great personality – he is NOT known as the greatest – by any stretch of the imagination.
Likes of Ibn Arabi, Baha Uddin, Abdul Qadir. . . Hasan Basri . . . Suhrwardi,
Then there are other fields of knowledge . . . linguistics where likes of Jurjani, Ibn Hisham or Sibwayah are well known.
Perhaps the field in which Ghazzali is the greatest is Islamic Philosophy.
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What is really interesting is how much the Persian feature! Likes of Abu Hanfia, Jurjani, Bukhari Sibwayah. . . Abdul Qadir – among many others were all Persians and the most greatest and well regarded Muslims. . . One would imagine if Sina is a Persian – then all he has to do is curse his own bloody ancestors . . .
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As per ususal – this extremely badly written and argued. . . Sina even fails to mention his sources. The chunk he has pasted . . . where is it from?
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He has fitted in Rumi's views on women to what his projected view of Islam is . . . . as per usual.
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" Rumi says all tears shed by women are for deceiving men. "
Really – where?
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" Doesn’t this explain why Muslims, particularly Arabs loath manual work? "
This is a stereotype of Arabs – all such stereotypes are considered wrong . . . and illogical.
– – –
"On the surface you dominate you wife, like water on fire;
But in reality you are ruled by and suppliant to her."
Ah . . . so Rumi – DOES NOT CONSIDER MEN TO BE SUPERIOR.
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Jeez!
I heard Sikhs grew their hairs coz they took oath to eradicate Islam. If they succeed they will be clean shaved is that true?
If I said . . . Hindus were diseased mad, dirty – who never took showers, scumbags and called them guility, never expressed opinion about them being killed innocently and refered to them as "guilty".
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If the Hindus were in fact ‘diseased mad’, ‘dirty- who never took showers’, ‘scumbags’, then you would be simply expressing a truth. You cannot be called a hater.
Secondly, you are totally refusing to see what Dr. Sina is trying to convey regarding Muslims.
***********
You probably are a Hindu/Sikh – but you didn't even have the guts to say it . . . ya coward. You cannot even use your own name.
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Don't you think a person could be influenced by things in addition to Hinduism/ Sikhism?
**********
"As an example – your lies that Quran refers to the Earth as flat. Yet you couldn't prove it – but still make the lying assertion. . . over and over. "
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"Quran referring to Earth as flat' has nothing to do with hatred. It is a totally different topic.
Error Correction:
The sentence "How can anyone hate a Muslim if I notice clearly that s/he is a good person?"
should be-
How can I hate a Muslim if I notice clearly that s/he is a good person?
"And what do you say about Muhammad who said women are deficient in intelligence?"
Where did he say that . . . do point it out?
"To zitouni, aminriadh, Ali and others who are in the impression that myself, and FFI founder Dr. Sina ‘hate’ Muslims, "
If I said . . . Hindus were diseased mad, dirty – who never took showers, scumbags and called them guility, never expressed opinion about them being killed innocently and refered to them as "guilty".
What would you say. . . . that I "loved" Hindus?
– – – –
You probably are a Hindu/Sikh – but you didn't even have the guts to say it . . . ya coward. You cannot even use your own name.
– – – –
"Hope this makes things clear. Hope this also puts a rest (temporarily) to accusations of ‘hatred’ against Dr. Sina, and FFI. "
Sina gets called that because of his words . . . you are referred to as hate monger – because of your UNCONDITIONAL support and your lies.
As an example – your lies that Quran refers to the Earth as flat. Yet you couldn't prove it – but still make the lying assertion. . . over and over.
You say one thing . . .but your deeds let you down.
To zitouni, aminriadh, Ali and others who are in the impression that myself, and FFI founder Dr. Sina ‘hate’ Muslims,
This is going to be a fairly long post but I thought it is important to post this, since Muslims keep accusing Dr. Sina and many commenters (including myself) of hating Muslims, when we have emphasized again and again that it is only Islam (the ideology) that we hate, not Muslims (the individuals). In this post I am going to describe in detail about what makes me tick, and how I view Muslims; and I believe Dr. Sina’s perspective towards Muslims is very similar. As a bonus, you will get to learn of a woman who did better than her husband.
As I said in an earlier post, I have been impressed, among other things, by the worldview described by Hinduism. So I am going to tell you of a story from the Puranas, as this story perfectly describes how I see Muslims.
Once upon a time, the Hindu ascetic God Shiva leaves home in the morning as usual, to go to the surrounding villages and beg for food. (In the Puranas, Shiva is shown as a married ascetic who doesn’t need much for his survival, doesn’t take pride in his achievements, and is more than happy with whatever he can get out of begging. He also smokes weed and opium often). On the way he sits down under a tree to smoke, smokes too much weed and passed out. By the time he wakes up, the sun was about to go down. He gets up fast and hurries to the nearest village. He knocks at many doors, but most people had already given away their quota of daily offerings to other ascetics, and everyone shuts the door in his face. As darkness began to fall down, he had no option but to head back home. Distraught, he cursed himself for his stupidity, “How am I going to face Parvati (his wife and supreme Goddess of polytheistic Hinduism)? I myself can wait to eat till tomorrow, but what about the kids (Skanda and the elephant-headed Ganesha)? They will all have to go to bed hungry.” All dejected, he enters his hut to face the wrath of Parvati, only to find out that food was already ready. Apparently, Parvati had noticed that Shiva had not been back by a certain time, and knowing her pot headed husband, decided it best to go out begging herself before it got too late, and was able to collect sufficient food for everyone at home. For this reason, Parvati is called Annapurna, Goddess of nourishment.
When I first read this story, I was shocked. How could they portray Shiva in such way? Shiva is the highest God. Isn’t it enough that they portray him as a pothead and a beggar? How could they make him look like a stupid idiot who failed to do his duty towards his family, passed out from smoking pot, and ended up becoming dependent on his wife? I was completely baffled.
It was only a couple of months later, when I read a book written by an anthropologist, that I figured out the importance of this depiction of Shiva. According to the Hindu Upanishads, the divine spirit is in every human. Sheikh Farid, a sufi saint and poet, once said “Who do I call a ‘low’, when there is no one else besides you.” Meaning God is in everyone, and everyone is God. That is a primary Upanishadic teaching.
So here is what I realized after reading the anthropologist’s book. The above mentioned story is just that, a story. It wasn’t Shiva but some ordinary bloke who failed in his household duty, and passed out from smoking weed. What the story is teaching us, is that we should NOT hate such a person, because Shiva (God) lives in him. We should not ‘hate’ any person for any reason, because Shiva (God) lives in that person.
Now, not hating a person is not the same thing as not discriminating between people. For example, if some friend or relative visits my place, and I happen to know that he has a habit of stealing things, and has actually been caught red-handed before, I would be much more alert and restrictive on this person than others who visit me. Treating him/her the same way as anyone else would be stupid. Hope you got the idea.
It is the same attitude that I have towards Muslims. I do NOT ‘hate’ them. I cannot hate them, considering my religious views; views that are a result of understanding the above mentioned story and listening/reading the teachings of other people that I respect. How can anyone hate a Muslim if I notice clearly that s/he is a good person? How can I hate a Muslim when I know that his actions and attitude may very likely be a result of his belief in Islam?
I am however, cautious of Muslims. Since I understand that it is Islam that is the real culprit, I decided to become a small part of FFI’s cause to get them rid of Islam. Those who refuse to rid themselves of Islam however, I am not going to risk the well-being of my loved ones, the society that I live in, and the country, to end up being hostage to them, should they (the Muslims) end up becoming true Muslims.
I don’t know if Dr. Sina has ever heard of this Puranic story, or if he knows its meaning, but it is with the same spirit that he deals with Muslims. I know this beause I have been reading his writings for many years now, and I have sensed this spirit strongly emanate out of his writings. Many others have sensed it too, and that is why we respect him.
Hope this makes things clear. Hope this also puts a rest (temporarily) to accusations of ‘hatred’ against Dr. Sina, and FFI.
Cross fire ==>> Are you subhuman to listen to them? lol
Now you are supporting Wahhabism by criticizing mystic philosophers!
You answered my last question as Islam make Muslims not Muslims make Islam !
In Sufi literature, in their story, husband means the follower/disciple or person on way to God. He has one wife near him, that is mammon, he longs for another wife far away from him and uses all means to reach that. That is The God. One character like parrot guides the man.That is the symbol of Murshid or Guru. Often symbols like Shiv Parvati(in Hindi Sufi literature) are also used to depect the universal soul(energy which forms all the masses).
Choon Agha I Syae yE Mahtab Mi geed/As Mr Moon Shadow says. Since inception Sufis are targeted by bigot Muslims. Their linage is from Al Khizr(Saint George). We have Hazarat Mansoor Al Hallaj RA, Hazrat Sarmad Shaheed among others, brutally murdered by bigot Sunnis and at present by Salafis.
It is surprising that in nations like Indonesia, north Africa, south Asia we are finding the adat or pre Islamic habits still persisting, among Sufis is termed as Bida or innovation and people are forced to leave it. Was it not Sunnat( act to be copied in the life of the follower) of Prophet(PBUH), to maintain the deemed good Pre Islamic things of Pagan Arabs ? Why not this be followed by Muslims non Arab Areas ? Why are Sufis not coming out openly against bigot Muslims? Their survival is only possible in democratic non Shariya states like USA, EU or India as they are prosecuted in Muslim Majority State. Some Pre Islamic things like marriage, pilgrimage etc, were there in pagan Arabs and retained by Prophet(PBUH) with bit modification. Here pre Islamic means before Prophet(PBUH).
Just few thoughts and forgive if anyone is hurt. Just taking part in discussion to learn new things then to put my words in other people mouth.
There has been Hazrat Rabiya RA, a great Female Sufi.
And what do you say about Muhammad who said women are deficient in intelligence?
Did you read the article? Why these two great Islamic luminaries had such a low opinion of women and equated them to animal? Did they misunderstand Islam?
Wiki
The Quran expresses two main views on the role of women. It both stresses the equality of women and men before God in terms of their religious duties (i.e. belief in God and his messenger, praying, fasting, paying zakat (charity), making hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca/ Medina)) and places them "under" the care of men (i.e. men are financially responsible for their wives). In one place it states: "Men are the maintainers and protectors of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)." The Quran explains that men and women are equal in creation and in the afterlife, but not identical. Surah an-Nisa' 4:1 states that men and women are created from a single soul (nafs wahidah). One person does not come before the other, one is not superior to the other, and one is not the derivative of the other. A woman is not created for the purpose of a man. Rather, they are both created for the mutual benefit of each other.
Women in Islam
Who cares about what Ghazzali and Rumi dictate? The majority of what they said
is not mentioned in the Quran, and this is their point of view.
What is the percentage of Muslims who follow the teachings of those two jerks?