Dare to Doubt

 

This story happened in the year 1007. A couple of friends and I were in a blacksmith shop waiting to shoe our horses and were discussing about the rising price of hay.  Suddenly we heard a commotion in the street. People were shouting and running towards an open field.  We asked what had happened. They told us that there was a ball of fire in the sky that fell over there.  We were curious. It is not every day that a ball of fire falls from the sky. We went to see it for ourselves.  Sure enough, there it was. We found a large hole in the ground and a stone encrusted inside it. It was clear that the stone had a huge impact on the ground. The vegetation around it were burnt and it was still hot. One of my buddies who was a devout religious man prostrated. He started kissing the ground and said, didn’t I say that God exists? Here is the proof. This is a miracle for all to see and a warning to all the disbelievers. If you deny this miracle you are blind. There must be something wrong with you.

My other friend and I, were not convinced.  I turned to him and said, what do you think?  Our scientists tell us that the Earth is flat and the sky is a dome. Everyone accepts Ptolemy’s definition of the universe as fact.  He is an undisputed authority on cosmos. However, what we witness here defies Ptolemy’s explanation.  According to science, there should be no stone in the sky.  Could it be that Ptolemy was wrong and everything we know about the universe is topsy turvy?  Methinks that there is more to science that we just don’t know.  This strange phenomenon tells me that science is inconclusive.  Maybe we should not just believe what Ptolemy says, but study the cosmos to find out what the heck is going on and why stones fall from the sky. If we can’t believe that the stone was thrown by God or by angels, then we better find out how it got up there in the first place.

My atheist friend, who was a staunch Ptolemist and a firm believer in science, downplayed the entire incident. He denied that the stone had fallen from the sky.  He said that people must have seen a bird and mistook it for a ball of fire and what we were witnessing was the remains of a campfire. Then he gave me a lecture on “mass hallucination.” It was the first time I heard this expression. “Mass hallucination?” I asked puzzled. “What do you mean by mass hallucination? Does such thing exist? Isn’t this contrary to logic?  This is more hocus pocus than what you are trying to explain away” I told him.

He tried in every conceivable way to convince me that there is a prosaic explanation to the phenomenon, stating that the belief in falling stones is against the science and that all those eye-witnesses were nuts. He offered various theories to explain the phenomenon. His explanations were less plausible than the phenomenon he was trying to negate. .

I asked him, why should we not accept that the stone has fallen from the sky and find out how and why?  He said that is preposterous because it is against the science. “But what if science is wrong?” I asked. “That is nonsense,” he retorted. “What I mean is that our understanding of it is wrong!” I clarified. “What you are saying is superstition. There are no stones in the sky, period,” he reiterated emphatically. “Shouldn’t we be open minded and give it the benefit of doubt and investigate things before rejecting them?” I asked softly.  “Yes, but not as open minded as to let our brains fall out,” he quipped with a sneer. He called me gullible and a fool and acted as if threatened by my questions.

We were both members of SSR 11 (The 11th Century Secret Society of Rationalists) and met in a basement to discuss Aristotle, Plato, Ptolemy, science, religion and what not, away from the eyes of the Church and other ill-wishers.  He then threatened that if I insist on my unscientific ideas, he will denounce me to the Society so that I could be publicly ridiculed and expelled.

I admit that I can be a coward at times. I did not want to be ostracized and the idea of being ridiculed publicly did not appeal to me.  So I kept my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself.  I wondered if there are others who also see things the way I see them but are afraid to speak their minds because of the fear of the believers on one hand and of the deniers on the other. The skeptic society is not skeptic at all. They  are simply deniers which makes them believers from the other end. Both the believers and the deniers are the two sides of the same coin.

While not speaking to anyone, I remained wondering about the mystery of stones falling from the sky.  There was something amiss and I could not put my finger on it. You see, I am ignorant. However, I am lucky because I know it. When I don’t understand something, I don’t deny it.  I don’t laugh and ridicule things that I don’t understand. I put them to a mental box labelled “the unknowns”.  While my atheist friend denied the whole phenomenon and my religious friend had a renewed faith in his god and they both were content and convinced, the mystery of falling stones kept bugging me.

Years passed. Centuries came and went, until in the year 1634, a couple of months before he was charged with heresy and placed in house arrest, I had the privilege to meet the great Galileo. He made me peep into his telescope and see things I had never seen before. He told me about his discoveries and about Copernicus and his theories. He explained that Ptolemy was completely wrong and the sky is full of stones. Suddenly thing made sense to me. It was a complete shift of paradigm. I was finally vindicated. I was not crazy for doubting and for not trusting blindly what the scientists were telling me. More years passed and more centuries came and went. Eventually everyone accepted the heretic views of Galileo. However attitudes did not change.  The world changed but people didn’t.  My last horse died a century ago and I now drive a car. We filled our houses with all sorts of gadgets but our minds have not changed.

My religious friend is still a believer. He attributes anything that he does not understand to God and stops thinking about them. Realizing the story of creation, as stated in his ancient religious book cannot be true, he now advocates “intelligent design”.  My atheist friend is a university professor. He teaches astronomy and physics and has forgotten all about Ptolemy. As usual, he is a staunch defender of science. He ridicules anyone who believes in UFOs, telepathy or any other phenomenon that science cannot explain. These days he is not talking about Ptolemy, but Newton and Einstein. As far as he is concerned, humans have discovered everything that has to be discovered and any idea that may go against science is heresy.  He has forgotten that he told me the same thing when I first met him a thousand years ago when his views of science were very much different.

Me? Oh well, every day I discover that I am more ignorant that I had previously thought. Unlike my religious and atheist friends who are full of certainty, I am filled with doubts. I continue to wonder whether there is more to this universe and whether there are laws governing it that are yet to be discovered. Should I interpret reality to fit my world view or should I adapt my world view to embrace reality? Should I trust my own commonsense or my world view? Could there be other dimensions of which we are not aware?  Could there be other breakthroughs in science that could shift our paradigm once again?  In this millennium alone, I have witnessed several shifts of paradigms.  I won’t be surprised if tomorrow someone discovers that what we think of the world is utterly wrong.

I have seen how things that were thought to be impossible, like flying, telecommunicating or going to Moon and Mars, have become possible. I won’t be surprised if one day Nikola Tesla’s prediction that “ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe,” comes true. I don’t laugh when people talk about zero point energy or UFOs. I don’t deride those who say extraordinary things because time has shown that those who laughed were eventually those who were laughed at. I don’t believe, nor do I deny anything. Denial is also a form of belief. I remain a skeptic and full of doubts. As Bertrand Russell said, “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” Elsewhere he said, “Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

I have seen so many “impossibles” become possible that I no longer believe in impossible. The only thing that I doubt will ever change is the thinking and the attitude of us humans. It would take a miracle to change that and I don’t believe in miracles.

 

2007/11/01

 

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  1. MilestoGo says:

    Also if you get few minutes, please visit "pakteahouse.net" – its a fine blog from Pakistan…

  2. MilesToGo says:

    Ali

    Please watch "Ancien Aliens" if you haven't already.

  3. MilesToGo says:

    Perfect!!! I wanted to read that for a long time. Why can't we accept an unanswered question? Damn it!!! Why do we have always have to have answers? We do not have complete answers for origin of life and universe. Period. Let's accept that. People will go lengths to defend "Evolution" while there are serious holes in the theory.

    Thanks Ali Sina. I wish this is read by modern scientists. Please continue writing on this topic, it is an important one.

    MilesToGo

  4. Stravinski says:

    "I said an infinite cannot exist"
    How about eternal?
    "So what it is it does the monotheistic god exist or not?"
    I don't have a definite answer. In the light of science and the history of religions, it's extremely unlikely.

  5. enlightened25 says:

    Atheism is the conscious rejection of theism (and supernaturalism generally),your definition does not really cut it, as babies, rocks and ferrets are "atheist". True, how can we disprove that, which is not defined, but god in the monotheistic religions is generally defined as infinite, and it is impossible for a infinite god to exist.

  6. Stravinski says:

    Wonderful article as always Mr. Sina. However, I do feel that you've misrepresented the word Atheism for a positive assertion of the non-existence of any deities. As an Atheist, I don't deny the existence of God(s), specially with the vast range of concepts which that word encompasses, I simply don't believe in the existence of any, which is different. God just isn't among the things which I positively believe to exist.

    Thank you.

  7. Dayne says:

    OH SNAP!!! that got a huge laugh out of me 🙂 🙂

  8. everin says:

    I rather have no religion than to believe in all these human-created gods who were so ill-informed and confused as to have made so many stupid errors in the messages in their holy books. The people who created religions have their own selfish agendas. Why should I be fooled by their messages unless they have brought God's light along as a proof as in Johrei. I did not commit any serious evil deeds, I have nothing to fear when I die because, if there is a supreme God, He will judge everyone fairly, according to the Law of Karma = the law of cause and effect = You reap what you sow. All the good Muslims, Christians, atheists and others will not be punished.

  9. Maruf says:

    According to Blaise Pascal (in article “what if God exist”-alisina.org) we should believe in God. Because if we now believe that there is no God, but after death suddenly found that there is really a God, then no scope to rectify, straight looser. But If we believe in God in this life, then we will be in safe side whether there is God exists or not. So what we have to do is to find out the only true / loving God among the Gods in various religions.

    If Dr. Ali Sina was honest, suppose one of my friends called me, Maruf come out of your home, right then I will asked him where I will live at night? If he could not provide me another home than he has no right to call me come out? My friend should first manage another better home for me if he wants me to leave my current home. But Mr. Sina is not doing that he should have at first come up with a truer / lovelier God comparing to Muslim God before asking Muslims to denounce their faith. But without giving a solution he is offering a problem. This proves that Mr. Ali Sina has something hidden in his mind.

    He also suggests that to live ethically this will be enough for you. I am also agree with him in this regard.

    But who will decide the ethics meaning which is bad or which is right?

    Somebody tells, looking to a woman is bad, somebody tells looking is ok but touching is bad, somebody tells shaking and kissing is ok but adultery is bad, somebody tells everything is ok if both agree. Somebody tells Gay is very bad, some tells no it is their right. Some tells to be vegetarian is right , some tells no everything which is permitted can be eaten . Some tells bikini is perfect because it reveals the whole beauty, some tells no- woman should be modestly covered. Doctors say alcohol is harmful but it is permitted in many countries. Some says gambling is bad because it looses man financially, socially but many countries has permitted it. Some says interest is not bad for economy although it can’t resist recession, others tell that Islamic banking is less affected by the recession. A robber says robbery is good because he can earn much money with less effort and enjoy a luxurious life but the victim will say it is crime.

    For these reasons laws of every country differs each other and there is a continuous clash between pro and con.

    So the question is that who will define the good or bad or set limit. It is obviously the God, the Creator. Otherwise every right or wrong i.e. ethics becomes meaningless. So Gods presence/guidance is essential.

    So what is Dr. Sina doing, he is trying to make Muslims ex, without suggesting a more true God/religion for them. He wants to bring them out of home to under the sun, rain, storm, danger. It is inhuman. He is utilizing his brilliancy, literacy for misleading people, for the evil of the society.

    [email protected]

  10. Rohit says:

    @ marcionite, Namaste, Well I read all of your posts and here are the Rebuttals, You see The Bible Was Originally Written In Roman Language But Now It Can be found in all the languages you yourself don’t know roman language so how can you think what today is written and we found in bible is same thing written in the roman version, well my Fact here is not about Roman Language But About Sanskrit which is a divine language and the Oldest of all You see most of the People have the same Outlook towards Hindu Texts as you have they cant understand Sanskrit so they look for English Version and most of the English Versions Presents Corrupt Meanings of Sanskrit Sholakas. Vedas are strictly against any type of Non-Voilence towards every living Creature, Animal Sacrifise, Idol Worship. Now Lets Come To MahaBharat, The Original Mahabharat Contains 10,000 Shloka (Verses). but the Mahabharat we found Today Has more than 1,20,000 Shloak so the question arise how these Holy Scripture Become Corrupted, The Answer is That After Mahabharat War thousands of Pundits Had written it and every one had added some sholakas from his Own, and many Corrupted Shlokas Was Added by Arab Invaders, bcz, this was the Only Way From Which They Can De-stabilize Hinduism… I am Providing You A Link here you will find answers of all your Query Towards Vedas Sholakas Which You Think Promotes Non-Voilence.. http://www.vedmandir.com

  11. John K says:

    Oops! Sorry. Thought you were talking about Christian texts!

  12. anonymous says:

    do you mean quran? full of lies and ridiculous and nonsensical teachings?

  13. P.Srinivasan says:

    Hi Ali Sina,

    Your approach to both science and religion is so balanced and fair. Good work! I am happy to find another person think much like myself. I wish to explore all truth without being biased by either religious belief or rigidly-held rationality which is only another form of irrationality. While I believe that reason alone should be the instrument to find truth, I also believe that many things like life itself, love and sacrifice tend to go beyond reason. In a profound way, the universe seems so alive and pregnant with meaning, while simultaneously it appears utterly meaningless as well. What a mystery! Much work lies ahead for humanity. Great job again, Ali Sina! Keep going. We love it.

  14. anonymous says:

    well, thats another story

  15. John K says:

    Willy wrote: "Yep, this woman is characterless."

    Grace, you have to watch yourself. When you call yourself a Christian, you carry the name of Christ to the heathens and Gentiles. Many here claim to have read the Bible, but their posts show an obvious deficiency in understanding, so your life may be the only scripture they will ever read, and the only example of Christ they will ever see. Christ never once referred to private anatomy in his speech. In common language, even the heathens and Gentiles know that these are private. That is why they are called "private parts". That is why Satan attacks reverence for sacred life-sustaining biological functions, whether reproductive or digestive by using these things as the subject of profanity and vulgarity. We must represent respect for the sacredness of Christ's creations and not let them be dragged down to a common level.

  16. John K says:

    Reading the Quran, it becomes apparent from the early Suras that Muhammad's sincere desire to be a good religious leader was mixed with a bad attitude towards others. It only got progressively worse as his career progressed.

  17. John K says:

    Ali Sina wrote: "Neither this site, nor faithfreedom.org is for religious discussions"

    Okay. I've discussed this with you before, and I come upon this post after answering quite a few posts in the debate, so my apologies. I, too, had thought discussion was fair game in topics touching upon religion in general, such as "Does God exist", or with Christianity in particular, such as Crucifixion in the Quran. This one, Dare to Doubt, is somewhat borderline.

    But I am supportive or your policy because I come here to learn about Islam, and to help you share and inform those who visit wanting to learn about Islam, and Muslims wanting to challenge you. I don't come here to attack other beliefs or have mine attacked.

    I have often appealed at FFI and FB for mutual respect in our alliance against Islam. We would not have gotten anywhere in the war against the Nazis had the British, French, and Americans been at each others' throats.

    Thank you for your intervention and your tolerance.

  18. John K says:

    Duratma wrote: "Please also remember that God acted as He did"

    We cannot blame God for the things that happen in the world, but he does ask us to provide relief to the victims of suffering as shown in the story of the Good Samaritan.

  19. John K says:

    Duratma wrote: "Why aren't the Xian Missionaries expending their efforts & money to help these homeless"

    Christian churches are on the leading edge of homeless shelter sponsorship and staffing.

  20. John K says:

    Duratma wrote: "Why can't god be a "SHE". Does this G-d have a set of specific genetic qualities to be classified as the "HE" of the species he/she belongs to?"

    In Christianity God is a couple, male and female:

    Genesis 1
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Note the use of the plural – our image – our likeness – male and female.

    The Bible tells us we are the children of God. All nature testifies that every child must have a mother and a father.

  21. marcionite says:

    I'm confused.So now I'm a muslim?
    I'm sorry but I don't worship pedophile,serial rapist,mass murdering,plundering Muhammad/Allah

  22. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Well do you find Hindus trying to proselytize here? no….only followers of a "certain religion" do it here…my comment in that context…If Hindus believe 3 billion Gods what is your problem? Nobody is asking you to believe in them, unlike the followers of a "certain religion" here…who cares what you believe in truth?"

    I generally do not talk about my religion unless people like you attack it. I think that a person who lives to attack other people's beliefs is worse than someone who lives to promote theirs. The latter is a positive, being for something. The former is a negative, being against something.

  23. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Perhaps you should write an article on why followers of religion or atheists APPARENTLY SEEM to be so sure of themselves."

    Vanity and arrogance. Just like a Muslim.

  24. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Didn't your god create satan and his rebel angels?"

    Do you have no children? Is your religion celibate?

  25. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "oh really!! so your god respects the choices of others, and that is why he created hell for those who reject him..imagine a criminal gang leader claiming he respects the choices of ordinary citizens who oppose the criminal but puts a bullet through their heads..you crustians are indeed amazing beings…"

    Straw man.

  26. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "he could NOT even create a logical coherent belief system"

    To the contrary, it's the only belief system which is philosophically sound.

  27. John K says:

    "I can also gladly show you verses from your sacred texts that sanctions murder,rape,plunder,pedophilia,slavery,etc.
    I think I'll save that for continuum"

    I've already read your Muslim propaganda list.

  28. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "bible the first half of which teaches sexual slavery and slavery, genocide, stoning, looting"

    Straw man!

    It's not necessary for you to reproduce your list of verses here. I've already read them at Freedom Bulwark.

  29. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "I have read the bible, and have come to conclusion that there is no book in the entire world as asinine as bible, with the exception of koran…"

    Yet is is the foundation of the greatest civilization this planet has produced.

  30. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "god who sends people that do NOT believe in him to eternal hell"

    Straw man alert.

  31. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "even when their belief is shown to be logically contradictory."

    It's only contradictory in the paradigm of straw men you produce to knock it down. As I mentioned above, there are plenty of practicing scientists who are Christian.

  32. John K says:

    There are plenty of practicing scientists who are also Christian. You might read Dr. Eyring's, Faith of a Scientist, or Dr. Widtsoe's, Evidences and Reconciliations.

  33. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "your god sacrificed himself ONLY TO convince himself of forgiving others."

    Did you get an exclusive interview with him to get this little gem? Please refrain from giving your opinions as facts.

  34. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "your allegedly loving god has created hell in the first place"

    No, that is the Quranic hell. Real hell is a state of mind of suffering for the wrongs we have done.

  35. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Clearly a loving god cannot have such emotions as "eternal vengeance or hatred or punishment"."

    Correct. God is not such. Your representation of him as such is a straw man. Explanation in previous post.

  36. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "2. Punishment is for correction. Eternal punishment is for vengeance which does NOT suit an allegedly loving creator."

    I have already addressed this fallacy. Rather than repeat myself here, I will refer you back to my previous post rebutting this concept.

  37. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "the 'protection money' your impotent god asks for is belief in him"

    He asks us to believe in the light and goodness he brought to the world. Do you prefer to believe in evil and darkness? Surely you are not a secret Muslim? He would also like to have a relationship with you. ET phone home!

  38. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Ms. dumb idiot Grace,

    Would you like to live under a free country with sane people or under a criminal DOn who promises to protection you if you pay him protection money, which you call as security…how different is your god who threatens souls with eternal hell unless you accept him, which you call as security and love…"

    You must be getting emotional as the quality of your posts are deteriorating. What your mafioso imagery has to do with Christian doctrine is an amazing reach.

  39. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "tortures himself to death"

    I have already corrected you on this. Even a cursory familiarity with the Bible narrative would acquaint you with the fact that the Romans did the torturing.

  40. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "iwonder why crustians always turn out to be perverts"

    A false and foolish generalization that indicates your declining level of maturity. Where is your sociological data to support such a brash statement? You let yourself be swayed by flashy headlines to set yourself as judge over a huge population of good and decent people. You also ignore the distinction between Islam and Christianity in that those who are immoral in Islam are following their religion, while those who are immoral Christians are violating their religion. The good and evil natures of humanity are universal. No race, culture or creed is free of sinners.

  41. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Really, people choose to go to hell…LOL..I did NOT know that at all….Please explain how they choose to go to hell"

    People choose works of light or works of darkness. They cannot choose the consequences of their choices. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

    Surely you are able to discern the difference between someone who chooses a good life such as yourself and someone who chooses a life of evil such as the Taliban and terrorists. Spirituality seeks its own level. The wicked will be redeemed in the end, but they will not be comfortable in the same degree of glory as the righteous.

  42. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Please answer why your so called god loving god sends people to hell?"

    The message of the Gospel is the Good News of the redemption of Jesus Christ. Matthew 18 says:

    11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

    13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

    14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    So here you clearly see that verse 14 says that God does not want to lose even one of his children.

    Furthermore, hell is a temporary place of suffering for the period between death and resurrection. In the end all will receive an inheritance in heaven appropriate to their level of spirituality. Hence "in my Father's house are many mansions". This is further elaborated by Paul, on the degrees of glory, and Peter on the state of the wicked waiting for the resurrection:

    The other item is based on Paul's teaching about varying degrees of glory in heaven:

    2 Corinthians 12
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    and

    1 Corinthians 15
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the btars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    This is taken together with Peter's teachings about Christ's ministry to the dead in the spirit world during the 3 days prior to his resurrection:

    1 Peter 3
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were esaved by water.

    These, together with other relevant verses too numerous to list here come together with a doctrine that suffering is hell is a temporary state prior to the resurrection, and that in the end all will receive a degree of glory except for a handful of sons of perdition who are assigned a permanent outer darkness.

    So sometimes you have to be careful about taking counsel from your first impression on things you are not familiar with.

    You can lose the derogatory attitude. It does not endear you to those you are conversing with, and it creates the impression that your position is weak and can only be advanced by bullying, like Muslims.

  43. John K says:

    Arya wrote: "I have studied the entire Bible and know of many lies therein."

    Do you have evidence of any lie? I have probably been teaching the Bible longer than you have been studying it. I haven't seen any lies.

  44. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Definitely NOT the insane behavior of killing himself…got it…capiche"

    Not capiche, Continuum. First, he did not kill himself, he allowed himself to be killed. Second, death seems like a bad thing from your limited mortal perspective. For for Christ this was an advance, as it will be for us. Before his death he was half mortal, half divine. After he overcame death through the resurrection, he was fully divine and immortal. This is progress, not insanity.

  45. John K says:

    BBQ in hell is your interpolation. The fires of hell in Christianity are not Quranic fires that Muhammad taught. They are an internal suffering of regret.

  46. John K says:

    Arya wrote: "The theory that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the mankind is just humbug and lie fabricated by one of the early churches of the Pauline Christianity."

    That is an opinion, and you are entitled to it. But true learners do not submit opinion for fact.

  47. John K says:

    Continuum wrote: "Let me ask you a simple question."

    Christ's sacrifice is a reconciliation between justice and mercy. That is why the Gospel is called "Good News". Since all have sinned, none are worthy of the presence of God. Atonement is literally constructed in English from at-one-ment, to make us one with God again.

    The Atonement is like a debtor who is not able to pay his debt. Justice requires he be cast into debtor's prison, but the debtor wants mercy. The creditor says his claim is just and the debt must be paid. Christ fulfills the debt on the behalf of the debtor to let him go free. That is why the Bible also says that Christ ransomed us from our sins.

    The physical part of the Atonement is only for the purpose of conquering death through the resurrection. All who are mortal must pass out of this life through death. Through the free gift of the resurrection, all partake of resurrection and immortal life in the flesh.

    The spiritual part of the Atonement was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane where the pain of taking upon himself the sins of the world was so great that he sweat drops of blood.

    You are right, Christ forgives who he will forgive. Only on conditions of repentance will he pay the debt. Those who do not repent will pay the price of suffering for their own sins.

    In civil discussion it is not necessary for you to adopt a derogatory and condescending tone. Your incomplete understanding of Christianity is demonstrated by the questions you asked and the responses I had to give you. Therefore a little humility at the alter of knowledge is in order.

  48. marcionite says:

    O Talking cow with notebook…you'll be pleased to know that I found this jewel in the puranas.It speaks of a Sage ordering his sons to kill his wife for having adulterous thoughts.He then orders his other son to kill his own brothers for refusing to kill their mother.Guess what? It's not a sin.

    Srimad Bhagavatam
    SB 9:16:6 Jamadagni then ordered his youngest son, Paraśurāma, to kill his brothers, who had disobeyed this order, and his mother, who had mentally committed adultery. Lord Paraśurāma, knowing the power of his father, who was practiced in meditation and austerity, killed his mother and brothers immediately.

  49. marcionite says:

    O talking,laughing cow..I do apologize but I have to split my comments,as it's too long for a single post.

    Ganga set the precedence for all hindu parents who wish to kill the infants to please the gods.For this reason,India & Nepal has the highest child sacrifices in the world

    Mahabharata 1:XCVIII (p.210) And the king, while thus enjoying himself with his wife, had eight children …But, O Bharata, those children, one after another, as soon as they were born, were thrown into the river by Ganga who said, 'This is for thy good.' And the children sank to rise no more.

  50. marcionite says:

    O talking cow who subsists off his own urine & dung.I'll continue with part 2 of slaying children.
    Hindus shamelessly pray for death of enemies children
    Rig Veda 7:CIV:11 May he be swept away, himself and children: may all the three earths press him down beneath them.May his fair glory, O ye Gods, be blighted, who in the day or night would fain destroy us.

    It’s not a sin to slay your son if you’re hungry
    Laws of Manu X:105 Agigarta,who suffered hunger,approached in order to slay (his own) son ,and was not tainted by sin, since he (only) sought a remedy against famishing.

    3 Hindu Mothers Kill Their Nine Children
    Mahabharata 1:XCIV (p.200) And Bharata begat upon his three wives nine sons in all.But none of them were like their father and so Bharata was not at all pleased with them.Their mothers ,therefore,became angry and slew them all.

  51. marcionite says:

    O talking cow…I detect a falsehood spoken by thee.
    I won't copy/paste articles for now from the web of all that weird,dumb & cultist crap that you people are infamous for…maybe later.
    But first,you said that your faith does not order you to kill children.Actually it does.
    Atharva Veda III:1,8,3Slay the offspring of the sorcerer, O soma-drinking (Indra), and subject (him)! Make drop out the farther and the nearer eye of the braggart (demon)!

    Atharva veda 10:1:19 …Let that go back to whence it came, turn thither like a horse and kill the children of the sorcerer

    Atharva Veda 11:2:21 Covet not thou our kine or men, covet not thou our goats or sheep.Elsewhither,strong One! turn thine aim:destroy the mockers' family.

  52. marcionite says:

    Sati,ie. Burning widows alive is for the protection of the women.This is the dumbest thing I ever heard.Only someone who thinks eating cow crap is holy can be so retarded.The real reason why widows are burnt alive is that they're are considered to be nothing without their husbands.They are to be enslaved by their husbands,fathers & even sons.Therefore they are not able to think & fend for themselves.This is according to your sacred texts.

    Mahabharata 1:CXXXI:(p.253)'Women serve no purpose when their husbands are dead. She who liveth after her husband is dead, draggeth on a miserable existence that can hardly be called life. O bull of the Kshatriya order, death is a blessing to women without husbands.

    Manu 5:148. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband,when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent.

  53. marcionite says:

    I can also gladly show you verses from your sacred texts that sanctions murder,rape,plunder,pedophilia,slavery,etc.
    I think I'll save that for continuum

  54. marcionite says:

    It's interesting how Grace never attacked your religion once yet you're constantly bashing hers'.____The difference between Grace & myself is that I'm very familiar with the CRAP in your sacred texts.__I highlighted the word crap because you lunatics are actually told to consume crap & piss.____Mahabharata LXXXI (p120)One should, indeed, always confer happiness on them. One should, always reverence kine and worship them, with bends of one’s head. He who does this, restraining his senses the while and filled with cheerfulness, succeeds in attaining to that felicity which is enjoyed by kine (and which kine alone can confer). One should for three days drink the hot urine of the cow.____Mahabharata LXXVIII One should always bathe, using cow-dung at the time. One should sit on dried cowdung. One should never cast one’s urine and excreta and other secretions on cowdung. ____Manu 11:92. Or he may drink cow’s urine, water, milk, clarified butter or (liquid) cowdung boiling-hot, until he dies

  55. marcionite says:

    You said "In all types (of Marriages),women's consent is important.

    I respectfully disagree with the above statement.Does an infant girl really consent to being married to an adult male.

    Manu 9:94. A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.

    SBE 14:Baudhayana:Prasna 4:Adhyaya1
    11. Let him give his daughter, while she still goes naked, to a man who has not broken the vow of chastity and who possesses good qualities, or even to one destitute of good qualities; let him not keep (the maiden) in (his house) after she has reached the age of puberty”

    Tell me,is kidnapping women for marriage,not rape?That's right,abducting women is an ancient hindu pastime which is sanctioned by your sacred texts.

    Mahabharata 13:XLIV (p.19) In forcibly abducting for marriage a girl that is bestowed upon the abductor by the girl’s kinsmen, with due rites, as also a girl for whom dower has been paid and accepted, there is no great sin.”

    Mahabharata 13:44 The wise have said this, O king, to be the practice of the Asuras, viz., wedding a girl after purchasing her at a high cost and after gratifying the cupidity of her kinsmen. Slaying and cutting off the heads of weeping kinsmen, the bridegroom sometimes forcibly takes away the girl he would wed. Such wedding, O son, is called by the name of Rakshasa. Of these five (the Brahma, the Kshatra, the Gandharva, the Asura, and the Rakshasa), three are righteous, O Yudhishthira, and two are unrighteous…

    Arjuna abducts a female for marriage
    Mahabharata 1:1(p.8) When I heard that Subhadra of the race of Madhu had, after forcible seizure been married by Arjuna in the city of Dwaraka, and that the two heroes of the race of Vrishni (Krishna and Balarama the brothers of Subhadra) without resenting it had entered Indraprastha as friends,

    Moon-god kidnaps the lord of prayer's wife & rapes her
    Baghavata Purana SB 9:14:4 After conquering the three worlds [the upper, middle and lower planetary systems], Soma, the moon-god, performed a great sacrifice known as the Rājasūya-yajña. Because he was very much puffed up, he forcibly kidnapped Bṛhaspati's wife, whose name was Tārā.

    SB 9:14:9 Brhaspati blames his wife Tara for the rape after he finds out she fell pregnant with Soma's child

    Instiututes of Vishnu 24:25. If he seizes her forcibly, it is called a Râkshasa marriage.
    26. If he embraces her in her sleep, or while she is unconscious, it is called a Paisâka marriage.

    Laws of Manu 3:33. The forcible abduction of a maiden from her home, while she cries out and weeps, after (her kinsmen) have been slain or wounded and (their houses) broken open, is called the Rakshasa rite.
    34. When (a man) by stealth seduces a girl who is sleeping, intoxicated, or disordered in intellect, that is the eighth, the most base and sinful rite of the Pisakas.

    Manu 33:24 says that the 3 caste groups are allowed forced abduction except Brahmanas

    Vishnu [SBE7] 24:41. A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father's house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong.

  56. marcionite says:

    Hi,it's me again.I do not believe you were being entirely honest when you said that you don't believe your sacred texts sanctions sexual slavery.It in actual fact does.

    Here's an example of mass pedophilia,where 1000 young virgin girls are used for "personal services"
    Mahabharata 1:CCXXII And he of eyes like lotus-petals also gave unto them a thousand damsels well-skilled in assisting at bathing and at drinking, young in years and virgins all before their first-season, well-attired and of excellent complexion, each wearing a hundred pieces of gold around her neck, of skins perfectly polished, decked with every ornament, and well-skilled in every kind of personal service.

    Your sacred law books does in fact also prescribe pre-pubescent girls being married to adult men.You know about them already so I won't bother pasting them here.But I will paste these verses that are abusive towards women.

    Killing women is a minor offence
    Manu11:67. Stealing grain, base metals, or cattle, intercourse with women who drink spirituous liquor, slaying women, Sudras, Vaisyas, or Kshatriyas, and atheism, (are all) minor offences, causing loss of caste (Upapataka)

    Purify yourself with a gift if you kill adulterous women
    Manu 11:139.For killing adulterous women of the four castes, he must give, in order to purify himself, respectively a leathern bag, a bow, a goat, or a sheep.

    Adulterous women must be eaten by dogs
    Manu 8:371. If a wife, proud of the greatness of her relatives or (her own) excellence, violates the duty which she owes to her lord, the king shall cause her to be devoured by dogs in a place frequented by many.

    It's not sinful to deceive women
    Mahabharata 12:CLXV (p.358)…A falsehood spoken in jest is not sinful; nor one that is spoken to a woman. O king, nor one that is spoken on an occasion of marriage; nor one spoken for benefiting one's preceptor; nor one spoken for saving one's own life. These five kinds of falsehood in speech, it has been said, are not sinful.

  57. Marcionite says:

    Dear Sir/Ma'am

    I protest.It's not common knowledge that the "Earth is NOT flat"Many religious books still perpetuate the myth of a flat earth,fixed heaven with invisible pillars,pegs that secure them,etc.

    For eg.the following verse says the earth has been fixed with pegs around it.

    Yajur Veda 5:16 Rich in sweet food be ye, and rich in milch-kine, with fertile
    pastures, fair to do men service.Both these worlds, Vishnu, hast thou stayed asunder, and
    firmly fixed the earth with pegs around it
    .

    The Earth is spread out
    Rig Veda 10:62:3 Ye raised the Sun to heaven by everlasting Law, and spread broad earth, the Mother, out on every side.

    Earth has 4 corners
    3 Thy spirit, that went far away, away to the four-cornered earth,
    We cause to come to thee again that thou mayst live and sojourn here.

  58. Agracean says:

    Dear rationalist and atheist hero, Dr Ali Sina, please take note of the above reply from this heartless Mr continuum. He could betray you and your trust if you should face any stupid allegations concorted by those braindead zombies in future, just like Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus Christ because of the fact that he never trust your character and your words at all!

  59. continuum says:

    I do NOT care who it is…if there allegations and I see reason to believe in it, I will….I am NOT as gullible and brain dead fool like you to worship a 2000 year old flying zombie as you are Ms. Grace to fall for idiotic belief or for criminal xian missionaries……

  60. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, please don't try to evade my question. So, what you are saying is that you will believe in that allegations even if my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina is in Staines's situation! How can you be so gullible and believe in those villains' stories?

    I believe that my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina, will be utterly disappointed with a heartless braindead zombie like you!

  61. continuum says:

    Ms, Grace,

    Again, i have stated my reasons for believing in that allegation. There is a saying "there is no smoke without fire"….The lady did provide a detailed description of events with multiple people as witnesses to whom she had reported the events…A liar would NOT risk mentioning multiple witnesses to whom she had reported….Any real law agency should have investigated by further contacting all related people and subjecting them (including Staine's wife) to polygraph tests…If Staines in innocent, he would have been acquitted of this alleged slander by due investigation. However, Indian government, being as corrupt as they are, used media, glamor etc. to bury the issue instead of opening up and investigating the case. This gives me ample reason to believe in the truth of allegation….On the other hand, you and duratma gandhi, being xians will believe in any lies…

  62. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, if my dear hero, Dr Ali Sina, was in Mr Staines's situation, being accused of such stupid allegations even after death. I believe that you will think like me and defend Dr Ali Sina's good name because we know that he's a good Samaritan and he uphold the Golden Rule, right? Let's be fair to good Samaritans like Mr staines and his family.

  63. continuum says:

    Jeetega bhai jeetega, INDIA jeetga !! Won't be back for a long time….
    ===================

    Typical fool….stick to cricket matches….that is what idiots do…

  64. continuum says:

    And, one again, "Aham Brahmasm Tat Tvam Asi" – if you don't like ,stop reading it.
    ============================

    I have every right to ask you to keep your fantasy belief to yourself, when you are addressing me with your belief. This is the definition of putting it down another's throat…so keep your ridiculous ramana nonsense to yourselves…

  65. continuum says:

    1. I stated that there are *good* preachers too. It's based on my personal life & from my friends accounts.
    ===================

    Your statement is based on your personal experiences or "fantasies"….Personal experiences or "your fantasies" are NO evidence at all…for all i know you may be hallucinating these experiences taking weed and ganja like your good shaivites experience spiritual ecstasy..My statement is based on clearly reported cases of abuse recorded in news papers…You can go and refer…..

    ==================
    Yours are based on your fantasies (Defense Minister lies, CBI lies, news papers lie – and some blog / blogs are truthful – if that's not fantasy, what else is?)
    =======================

    Claims of defense minister lies or CBI lies have no connection to evangelists….The good acts of evangelists are available all over the media…from pedophilia, homosexuality, money laundering etc…check on benny hinn, pat robertson and others…

  66. continuum says:

    Yes, the Defense Ministers of the GoI, politicians, press, and the *majority* of sane individuals know nothing – and some blog & some anonymous poster on the internet is the one who knows it all.
    =================================
    There is NO rational or logic in thinking whatever defense minister or government representative speaks have to be truth or fact necessarily. Neither it has to be necessarily false whatever unknown people write in blogs.

    Again I have yet to see evidence for "saffron terrorism" from you or your defense minister. I want to see clear evidence with organization name, mission etc….

    Regarding Hemalata Karua's statement, it was made in a court of law. NOT in a blog.

    So I do NOT know what bull shit you are spouting as usual. Your limitless idiocy is apparent.

    Mobs reacting to violent acts have no direction…that is what is mob rage….that is what you get when government is corrupt, missionaries with deep pockets play politics and indulge in injustice….

  67. contisuum says:

    Idiot…..LOL….
    =============================
    you too keep your pathetic, acerbic & senseless whinings to yourself –

    And, one again, "Aham Brahmasm Tat Tvam Asi" – if you don't like ,stop reading
    ====================

    Please follow your own teachings before asking others to follow it…why don't you keep your stupid belief to yourself……I will continue exposing missionaries for their evil acts…

    =============
    Your posts are causing a lot of non-Hindus to have a really bad impression of my Sanathan Dharm.
    =======================

    It ain't my problem…if you have problem stop reading…LOL….get it ding bat…

  68. continuum says:

    1. My statements on xian preachers are from widely available news. Pedophilia, evagelists caught on tape with prostituites etc. etc. They are NOT like your fantasies of your ramana maharishi and others…CBI has been uised by Indira Gandhi and her family during emergency to twist facts….These are recorded facts in history. I make informed conclusions, NOT based on idiotic blind belief like yourself on Ramana maharishi and others…

    2. Defense minister obviously LIES…Show me where is "Saffron terrorism" is? Mob reaction is NOT evidence of terrorism…Isolated events are NOT evidence of terrorism….Show me an organization which has an open mission to spread Hinduism by terror? neither your honorable defense minister nor your idiotic self can provide evidence for the same. But there is Islamic terrorism, there is xian terrorism as NLFT which has been caught with evidence of terrorist activities.

    I wonder who has warped and twisted logic here…
    ==================
    Back to square one – you can't even define what is HINDU
    ==================

    I DO NOt see any relevance at all and have no need to define anything here. Stupid irrel;evant questions need no answer…

  69. continuum says:

    so what….evagelists are even more nuttier than catholics..

  70. continuum says:

    You are free NOT to read them…It was NOT addressed to you at all..CBI is known to be an agent of your favorite kangrez family no 1..

  71. continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    Your belief means nothing to the world. Evidence is what matters. I have shown strong evidence that a xian convert has alleged Staine's of attempted rape. Good work does NOT result in murder. Modern medicine ans Science has provided all necessary precautions today for treating Leprosy without getting infected. Staine's is merely an employee of a church which pays him for his services. There ain't no sacrifice here. This is the truth and not some imaginary belief of what staine;s allagedly did.

  72. continuum says:

    People like you are causing hurtful thoughts
    ================

    If you are have such a thin skin then perhaps you should stick to your imaginary world of ramana and others. Some people cannot take truth…
    =====================
    You are clinging on to *your perception* of Hindu religion to define your acerbic slander
    ======================

    It ain't slander to call a spade an spade. You cling on to your perception of Hinduism just as any other HIndu does….

  73. continuum says:

    What a joker and an idiot? making ridiculous comparisons and conclusions as usual…expected from sub-intelligent beings like yourselves…Saying "I believe in what a poor woman says" based on reasonable arguments which I presented already and claiming I believe in that this is the truth regarding existence and shoving it on another are NOT the same thing.

    ================================
    Stop forcing your vile & pungent thoughts
    ===============================

    If that is your thought, you stop forcing yours on me as well. What an idiot?

  74. Agracean says:

    I strongly believe that Mr Staines and his family's dedication of their lives and all their years of good works and service in India speaks louder than those stupid accusations and lies from those heartless Hindus! I salute him and and his family for their love and sacrifice to the Hindus. Mr continuum, do you dare to go near to a leper or any leprosy patient? Well, Mr Staines risked his life to minister to them! That's the summary of his love for India!

  75. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, the truth is that Mr Staines and his 2 precious boys were dead and there's no way that they can't defend themselves from the accusations of those villains. So, that Hindu couple can say whatever they like against Mr Staines which could be under the bribery or influence of some bloodthirsty Hindus to stir up hatred against Christian missionaries.

  76. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    I'm off to follow the climax of the WC match. SRT, MSD & the boys in blue are definitely gonna win.. yay !! Jeetega bhai jeetega, INDIA jeetga !! Won't be back for a long time….

  77. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Please also remember that God acted as He did – resulting in the horrible death of him (Mr. Staines) & his two kids. We should also request God to not act hand-in-glove with the *DEVIL* – like He did in this case.
    .
    I think God neds to have some common-sense. lol..
    .
    On a serious note, May Mr. Staines soul R-I-P. Amen ~!

  78. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    If only Mr Staines had more love for the poor Xians of America & the aboriginies of Australia – he might have been saved this fate. May his soul R-I-P.
    .
    On behalf of my Hindu brethren, I pray that in his next 'janma' he is able to help the poor Xians of Xian societies in places like America, Australia, England, France, Germany (which are being overrun by Muslims, already).

  79. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    One question here..
    .
    Right here at Los Angeles, I've seen lots of homeless people. Why aren't the Xian Missionaries expending their efforts & money to help these homeless to find a home & share the love of God & path of Jesus Christ with these homeless people of L.A?
    .
    Why do you Xians want to focus more on locations where Xianity is not very welcome – while you give the middle finger to your very own Xian homeless people right here in Los Angeles? I never understood that logic.
    .
    In today's recession-filled world, I'd look forward to seeing Xian missionaries closing down their branches in 3rd world nations & turn back home to help the Xians (honest & hard-working ones) to keep their head above water. And, also to help those misguided Xians (that are now high on dope, marijuana, meth, etc) to find the love of Christ in their hearts & become able & contributing members to the American & other Xian societies.
    .
    Beats me.

  80. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Bottom-lline: People like you are causing hurtful thoughts in the minds of many others. Not only did you personally abuse me, multiple times, you've now indulged in termine the people on this website as 'blind fools' – realize that all this hatred is a direct consequence of your lack of identify. You are clinging on to *your perception* of Hindu religion to define your acerbic slander – exactly like how a Muslim clings to the Quran.

  81. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    "I would rather believe what a poor tribal woman says "
    .
    Keep your *belief* to yourself. Don't use your *belief* like this one & the many others of the same variety, to slander any other person's faith.
    .
    "I do know the blind fools in this website"
    .
    See, you are now using your *belief* to go around & indulge in unwanted, unwarranted, abusive adhominem attacks on members of this forum.
    .
    This is what *blind faith* does to people. it turns them to brain-dead zombies that are filled with hate. It's zombies like that, that go around killing human beings.
    .
    Stop forcing your vile & pungent thoughts about 'one specific religion' on others, especially when you're using your *belief* as the foundation for this act of slander.
    contd

  82. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Yes, the Defense Ministers of the GoI, politicians, press, and the *majority* of sane individuals know nothing – and some blog & some anonymous poster on the internet is the one who knows it all.
    .
    Even when the Hindus are *attacked* by outside forces, they follow the Yudha Shashtra. So, even, as you claim, in case of *defending*, Hindus have been very civilized.
    .
    King Purushottam did not indulge in a genocide. Neither did the king Prithiviraj who defeated Mohammed Ghori's attacking army. It's a different thing that the latter, later on captured & killed the former.
    .
    That's the context of that statement. Mind reading things 'in context'? So, the *mob* that attacked & killed 2 little children weren't defending any religion – they were exactly like Muslims – end of story.

  83. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Once again, you too keep your pathetic, acerbic & senseless whinings to yourself – don't post them on an internet forum to enable other members to chide my Sanathan Dharm.
    .
    And, one again, "Aham Brahmasm Tat Tvam Asi" – if you don't like ,stop reading it. No one is putting it down your throat. Your posts are causing a lot of non-Hindus to have a really bad impression of my Sanathan Dharm.
    .
    Vanakkam!!

  84. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Oh come one.
    1. I stated that there are *good* preachers too. It's based on my personal life & from my friends accounts. Yours are based on your fantasies (Defense Minister lies, CBI lies, news papers lie – and some blog / blogs are truthful – if that's not fantasy, what else is?)
    2. My intentional mockery of my dharma was to excercise my freedom to criticize, mock & otherwise question my own set of beliefs. I did not indulge in unwarranted personal adhominem attacks, like you did.
    3. Honorable Defense Minister of the GoI, as per your warped & twisted logic, is lying too – so, you live in your fantasies. That's not my problem.
    Back to square one – you can't even define what is HINDU – and can't even find out where that word occurs in the netire Vedas & Upanishads. Ha ha ha. The joke is on you, mate.

  85. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Catholics are not the *only* Xians – just like Iyers & Iyengars are not the only Hindus. Catholics are probably the most violent & IMHO stupid denomination. There are many wonderful people within the same Catholic denomination too – and there are many many other Xian denominations too.
    .
    To some Xians, Catholics aren't even counted as Xians.

  86. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Same here – since you keep posting trash about Xians & in turn invoke others to post bad things about my Sanathan Dharm – you keep your pathetic belief (about CBI lying thru their teeth) to yourself.

  87. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Yet, that is no reason to generalize that *INDIANS* killed Xians (remember, those Xians are INDIANS too) or to say Missionaries are evil (there are good ones too).
    .
    At least, the "Asian Indians" never went into a new land & destroyed the natives like barbaric animals – example, Americas, Australia, New Zealand – where European barbarians arrived & destroyed all things native to these lands. The Native Americans, Aborigines, Maoris – they've suffered the same fate as that of the ancient Greeks & Romans (before Xianity destroyed their cultures & reduced it to mythology).
    .
    There are mistakes on all sides – nothing is perfect – IMHO.
    .
    MN

  88. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    To a certain extent, I agree with the perspective of continuum.
    " Jews, Buddhists, jains etc. were living with Hindus for last 2000 years " – a few more add-ons here. Sikhs & Sikhism has also thirved (except for Kaangrezi idiots who butchered Sikhs in Delhi for the murder of "Mrs. Priyadarshini Feroze Gandhi").
    .
    Pharsi community (from Iran) who escaped persecution from their home land have not just lived but been very very well in India.
    .
    In Kerala (one of the rarest places where Islam was allowed to flourish without the sword), Muslims & Xians were given a wonderful treatment by the Cochin & Travencore Kings of yore (Athithi devo bhava) – and today, you have Love Jihad, amputation of a college lecturer's arm, etc.
    .
    contd

  89. continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    You have no idea of the situation in Orissa. Xian tribals were attacked by Hindu tribals for illegally grabbing Hindu tribal lands with force and physical threats for previous 10 years. They were NOT attacked for their beliefs. Xians were given refuge in India for last 1400-1600 years. Hindus are NOT evil people like your European counterparts that persecuted minority all through history. So do NOT build stories out of your mind.

    The attacks were a culmination of years of persection of Hindu tribals by xian missioanries and xian converts. Both xians and muslims do NOT know how to live in harmony. Jews, Buddhists, jains etc. were living with Hindus for last 2000 years and have you ever heard of Hindus acting violently on these. NO…but this is NOT the same with xians and muslims since both these people are attacking and causing severe social problems within HIndu society by spreading hatred among converts who in turn start abusing Hindus. Hindus face it patiently for some time and try to avoid problems. But xians and muslims shove their bull shit too much and Hindus have no other option but to react violently because the law won't help them and politicians are against Hindus because Hindus do NOT have deep pockets.

    The hatred is outcome of unjust politics xian missionaries play using their deep pockets and control on politics.

  90. continuum says:

    Yes…..K. Sudhakar working on behalf of Staines' wife and Italian xian woman at center indeed will LIE through his teeth. It is well known that Central Bureau of Investigation is merely a pawn in the hands of politicians and especially at the hands of Nehru-Indira-Rajiv and now Sonia's hands and are as corrupt as one can possibly be. CBI cannot be trusted with anything.

    Yes, one cannot expect missionary's wife to tell the truth regarding her husbands ill conduct, especially after his death.

    By the way, the couple are NOT Hindu at all. In fact if you read you will know that the husband already converted to Xianity and the woman followed suit with her husband. Infact they are xian converts. So stop spreading LIES…

    K. Sudhakar merely made claims in court room that the couple had motives and provided no proof. The woman need NOT build elaborate stories about Staine's wife meeting her, knowing well that Stine's wife can easily say that she never met the violated lady. One cannot expect Staine's wife to tell the truth regarding her late husband's attempt to rape poor helpless tribal woman. What wife will do this to her husband even if it is truth. Staine's wife had every reason to lie. Still the poor tribal woman told the truth in the court. She also mentioned one Susna Mirandi in the camp about attempted rape by Staines. I do NOT think she is building elaborate lies. The violated lady is merely recounting events as it happened. It is unlikely that a violated lady will remember what her attacker was wearing. Its a joke K. Sudhakar blames the victim for NOT remembering the attacker's clothes. This is another proof for me that the lady is telling the truth.

    Ms Karua alleged both Glady and Graham had invited her to visit a Manoharpur "jungle camp" with her husband.

    She said the camp was established to convert Hindus to Christianity.

    She, along with her husband Yogendra Karua, went to Manoharpur on January 21, 1999, to attend the camp.

    The defence witness said her husband was converted to Christianity and then she followed.

    "That night I informed about the incident to one Susna Marandi and the next day I told this to my husband and Mathai and we left for Machagada," Ms Karua said.

  91. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, the truth of the matter is that this great Australian ,Mr Staines and his 2 beloved sons have sacrificed their precious lives for the sake of their love for the Hindus. They deserved my utmost respect for their passion for humanity despite knowing the fact that they are ministering to bloodthirsty predators. May God bless his wife and daughter.

  92. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, with regard to that Australian missionary's case, I believe that the Hindu couple were villains, lying and trying to frame him and his wife as the Central Bureau of Investigation counsel K Sudhakar vehemently denied Karua's claims and asserted that she had not visited Manoharpur and Staines had not misbehaved with her. The missionary's wife also had not visited her village, he said, and charged her with lying in court at the instance of Dipu Das, one of the main accused in the Staines murders.

  93. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, I believe that you are an Indian and you should know the Indian culture better than I do. Many Christians' homes were burnt or destroyed by native Indians just because those Indians chose to believe in Jesus Christ and became Christians.

    In addition, as if the punishment is not good enough, the mob will beat those Christian owners and their family members up, to teach them a lesson for following Jesus Christ. In the process of it, some Christians died of severe injuries. These villains are not muslims but indians!

    I remember a frightening account of my two friends' visit to . They took a taxi to a certain place. On the way there, the taxi knocked down a pedestrian and they were shocked that within 15 mins or so, a mob out of nowhere pulled the taxi driver and my friends out and demand for justice. They ran for their life in different directions and managed to escape from thier hands.

  94. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, it doesn't matter if you are a president or a Catholic priest. The fact is that we are all imperfect human beings and we are all sinners because of our sinful nature. It applies to you and me too, Mr continuum. It depends on individual's heart. Since we are all sinners, let's give those Catholic priests who have already received their due punishements for commiting those homosexual acts a second chance in life to be a better person in life.

    But the truth of the matter is that there are many good Samaritans and also, many villains on this troublesome planet earth. But the sad truth is that even villains can masquerade themselves as the innocent party just to achieve their wicked motives. So, it's very important for us to be wiser than the serpent but be as gentle as a dove.

  95. continuum says:

    Once again ' Aham Brahmasmi Tat Tvam Asi'. Namaste.
    =================================

    Once again, keep your belief to yourself, Ido NOT need your BS beliefs….got it mate…

  96. continuum says:

    There is a difference between individuals and multimillion dollar xian orgs. Now whoever among xians come to India from outside and fund in India are necessarily employees of these orgs.

    The number of incidents of abuse from xian missionaries are far more than any other single religion, with the exception of izzlam…

    Abuse from xian missionaries are NOT some isolated events like some Premananda etc. They are much more than that. Just see the rampant widespread pedophilia cases all around the globe in Catholic churches and also abuses among evengelicals which includes money laundering, homosexuality, prostitution etc.. These are mainstream behavior among xians for last few 100s of years. I said earlier, that American Indians have also reported abuse. Just look at the statistics and then argue.

  97. continuum says:

    Are you telling me killing of 2 young kids is what is JUSTICE? Well, news-flash, *MY* Sanathan Dharm doesn't tell me to do that, nor does it advise me to support it. Yours is an Islam-inspired version of the Hindu-religion

    Now this is a statement of what you believe about me, implying I support killing children….Now you are LIAR caught once again…

  98. continuum says:

    Simple atiduratma…..since you addressed me with your belief, I said keep it to yourself. I do NOT need your BS…have had enough already…

  99. continuum says:

    LOL………………….This is pure bullshit man….You claim you are against all rapists, terrorists etc. but then make an unqualified statement that xian preachers are preaching love….This is what I call a xian in disguise with all other evidence such as Meera etc…..when promptly shown backtrack and tap dance and complain I was abusive and made personal attacks, while you are the one making personal attacks/ad-hominem on my character and about my supposed nature of belief etc…Do NOT throw stones from a glass house…I do NOt give hoots about what you think as I said earlier…

  100. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    I believe in equality – the equality to mock, criticize & objectively discuss (without personal attacks) any / all religions & ideology. I am open to criticising atheism, agnostics, theism, BJP, Kaangrez, any ideology. If a person is hurt because an ideology is being criticized, it shows an identity crisis. Like the many Muslims who accuse Ali Sina of being 'EVIL', Jewish MOSSAD agent, etc – you too accused me of being 'Xian scum', LIAR, etc.
    .
    You're not at all different from the people / ideology you hate so much. And BELIEVE ME – I was almost exactly like you. I've been in your position – of hatred towards the missionaries – for their horrible work in my nations North-Eastern states. Not all people that proseltyize in the name of Christ are 'equally' evil – some are evil, but some are not. Exactly like not all Hindu 'gurus' are evil, some like Nithyananda, Premananda are evil – some (Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sri Ravishankar, etc) are not.
    .
    Once again ' Aham Brahmasmi Tat Tvam Asi'. Namaste.
    MN

  101. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Why don't you keep your opinion on others beliefs & naming it "BS" to your self?
    .
    If you can not keep something to your ownself, it's absurd to expect others to do the same. So, let's try again – you first keep your thoughts (which, more often, are abusive, insensitive, personal, unwarranted & obnoxious) to yourself. Then, you can come around to preach others the same.
    .
    The same behaviour is exhibited by Muslims when they go on a rampage for Pastor Terry Jones burning the Quran – but are absolutely okay when Egyptians persecute Copts & when Malaysian Muslims humiliate Hindu (& more importantly Tamil) Malaysians beliefs (by putting a dead cows head in front of a temple).
    .
    contd

  102. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    3. Also, why do you need to exhibit your lowly attitude by indulging in personal adhominem attacks? Is it that you're incapable of an objective criticism & mockery of 'one particular' religion – but more than willing to do so about other religions? If it's okay to mock Islam, Xianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Jainism – it is absolutely okay to mock my very own Sanathan Dharm too. Mocking & questioning are tools that will lead to separation of the chaffe from the *real* stuff. It's exactly what lead to *SD* to enhance & upgrade it's various laws – it is what lead to Manusmriti & various shasthras. Read about Charvaka in the Vedas – that's how mocking is treated in SD (Sanathan Dharm).
    .
    4. Glad to notice you no longer shout about my faith in Sanathan Dharm. Remember, a few posts on an internet forum is not something that defines a person – not even by a long shot. But sad to see that you still indulge in unwarranted name-calling (LIAR? Did I say you said/did something, at all? I asked questions – and that's it, you exhibit for all & sundry your pathetic & abusive attitude towards fellow human beings).

  103. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    1. Asking questions – like Are you ____ ? isn't same as making a claim like "You are _____.". Re-read my post – and note the 'question marks'.
    2. "Yours is an Islam-inspired version of the Hindu-religion – and the result is your hate-filled personal attacks. " – and I stick with that *statement*. It is – because you have continually involved in abusive behaviour on this forum against me – when I did not post anything personally abusive against you. As a follower of Sanathan Dharm I feel completely at ease criticising it – and even as a non-follower of Islam, I criticize it. So, your abusive & pathetic adhominem personal attacks justify my 'that' statement above.
    .
    MN

  104. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Okay, then, you're AGAINST THE HEARTLESS INHUMAN BARBARIC set of people that constituted that MOB – and the other set of armchair barbarians that support such mobs – irrespective of whether those barbarians are in SIMI, ISI, JuD, Lashkar, TTP, Xian guerilla fighers (from North-Eastern Indian states), VHP, BJP, Sangh Pariwar, Kaangrez, CPI, CPIM, anything – irrespective of what 'religion' / 'ideology' they subscribe to – you're against them?
    .
    I assure you irrespective of whether the killer is Ram, Rahim or Robert (or Amar, Akbar, Anthony – if you prefer), I'm against monstrous killers of all persuasions (as I'm against rapists & other such barbaric creatures). Like I said elsewhere, I'm against both extremes – I'm neither here nor there – I'm in the middle of nowhere. I've always agreed that Bible (Xians) as much as Hindus & Geetha are filled with their own short-comings. No one & nothing is beyond criticism, including God – IMHO.
    .
    MN

  105. continuum says:

    Let's buy your position that Mr. Staines was 'evil incarnate' – I have no problem with him being a very horrible person.
    ========================

    Read carefully, It ain't my position. It is the victim's claim that Staines tried to molest her. I would rather believe what a poor tribal woman says (who risked slander of her character from powerful people and had no way to protect herself) rather than a employee of multi-million dollar xian conversion industry which is already overflowing with several 100s of cases of sexual abuse, including pedophilia, all over the world. I do know the blind fools in this website still believe in these evangelists…

  106. continuum says:

    The Hindu warfare laws (Yudha Shasthra) were very civilized & always ensured that no civilians were physically harmed during battle.
    ====================================

    Now who in Earth told you this is war of Hindus against others? This is merely helpless cornered Hindus, whom the Indian government and law has failed to protect from preying missionaries and mullahs, reacting without any other option.

    Don't pretend to sit on some moral high ground and pretend to know what I think….I am NOT impressed by your stupid quotes of some Sanskrit verses here and there when you know nothing in reality.

  107. continuum says:

    It's still "Aham Brahmasmi tat tvam asi" – "yaame brahmam, neeyum adhuve" – "I am the Self and so are you" as far as my thinking goes.
    ==========================

    Now why don't you keep your BS beliefs to yourself?

  108. continuum says:

    Duratma,

    Do NOT put words in to my mouth….I never claimed anywhere killing innocent children is good…It is unfortunate that children were killed and even Staines got killed…I would have rather seen him go to jail for violating women…This is your claim that I did which shows you are a LIAR too……On the other hand bible does talk about killing suckling infants….Islam is inspired from bible….

  109. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    🙂
    .
    An extremist against extremism – lol !! May be I meant a terrorist/ fanatic.

  110. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Let's buy your position that Mr. Staines was 'evil incarnate' – I have no problem with him being a very horrible person. I personally believe Gandhi is also very very evil.
    .
    Now, "Philip, 8, and Timothy, 10, were killed when a mob" – is that how you or *YOUR* Hindu religion deals with children of EVIL MEN? The Hindu warfare laws (Yudha Shasthra) were very civilized & always ensured that no civilians were physically harmed during battle. For the mistake of one Duratma Gandhi – I will never accept that my brethren in Bharath pay with their very existence.
    .
    Are you telling me killing of 2 young kids is what is JUSTICE? Well, news-flash, *MY* Sanathan Dharm doesn't tell me to do that, nor does it advise me to support it. Yours is an Islam-inspired version of the Hindu-religion – and the result is your hate-filled personal attacks.
    .
    It's still "Aham Brahmasmi tat tvam asi" – "yaame brahmam, neeyum adhuve" – "I am the Self and so are you" as far as my thinking goes.
    .
    MN

  111. Ali Sina says:

    “Do you think there are extremists in the between, too?”

    By definition those who are in between are not extremists. 🙂

  112. continuum says:

    Duratma indeed…

    I used to *HATE* Islam so-much – that I almost turned to something like continuum.

    Hating evil ideologies is NOT at all bad. But you are NOT going to listen to facts or use your brain, no matter how much evidence is provided. But let the readers see them.
    http://www.abcscience.net.au/news/stories/2003/06

    A defence witness in the trial for the brutal 1999 murder of Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two teenaged sons in eastern India, has testified that Mr Staines had sexually assaulted her.

    Hemalata Karua caused a tremor to shoot through the district court when she charged that Mr Staines had told her that a "sexual relationship with him will benefit her".

    Later, Mr Staine's wife Glady had asked her not to describe the incident to anybody, Ms Karua claimed.

    Mr Staines's and his sons Philip, 8, and Timothy, 10, were killed when a mob, allegedly shouting anti-Christian slogans, set fire to their jeep on January 23, 1999.

    There are 17 people, including an influential Hindu nationalist leader, facing charges for the murders.

    Ms Karua alleged both Glady and Graham had invited her to visit a Manoharpur "jungle camp" with her husband.

    She said the camp was established to convert Hindus to Christianity.

    She, along with her husband Yogendra Karua, went to Manoharpur on January 21, 1999, to attend the camp.

    The defence witness said her husband was converted to Christianity and then she followed.

    Both were asked to have dinner where beef was served and when she refused, Graham told her that it was part of the conversion process.

    Ms Karua said she was asked to sleep in a hut behind the Manoharpur church while her husband slept elsewhere.

    At about midnight, there was a knock and she opened the door to find Graham.

    "He entered and asked me to close my eyes and meditate. As I was meditating he laid his hands on my body, I protested but he continued to persuade me saying physical relationship with him would benefit me," she said.

    The witness claimed she refused and screamed and Graham went away.

    "That night I informed about the incident to one Susna Marandi and the next day I told this to my husband and Mathai and we left for Machagada," Ms Karua said.

    She informed the court that she had told others at her village about the incident but had not lodged a police complaint because she heard about the death of Mr Staines the next day.

    She said that 20 days after the incident, Gladys Staines had consoled her.

    She also asked her not to disclose the proposition to anyone.

  113. continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    I do NOT know what this duratma and you are spouting about braindead zombies….Its no wonder both xians chose to completely avoid the issue at hand. The issue being "Hemalata Karua, one of the converts of Staines, accusing him of trying to molest her".

    I am NOT surprised xians do this. I have also quoted few references to xian pastors accused of pedophilia, rape and murder from India. It is also true that xian pastors from Europe to America were accused of pedophilia and your churches are paying huge sum of money for victims.

    Now it is up to you guys to close your eyes and stick your head in sand claiming all these are fake charges blindly or open your eyes and see the truth and fact as it is.

    Your comparison of criminal sex pervert pastors with Wafa sultan and likes is ridiculous. They did NOT abuse anybody to my knowledge or neither has anyone accused them of sexual misconduct, unlike your xian pastors.

    Now you can go on spouting about me being braindead, when in fact the facts speak loud and clear, who is braindead here…

  114. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Ms. Grace,
    "http://www.deeshaa.org/read-this-first/" – now, that blog has a very nice saying "Tat Tvam Asi" – in Sanskrit. It means I am same as the rest of the creations. In my native language (Thamizh / Tamil), there's a 'song' – it goes "Yaar yaar sivam, nee naan Sivam .. Vaazhve Thavam, Anbe Sivam". Meaning is 'Who is Sivam/ God, you & I are God.. Life is our Meditation, Love is God'. It's part of a movie named "Anbe Sivam" – and it's easily one *THE BEST* Tamil movies ever. One will learn to love the likes of continuum, if one follows the protagonist of that movie. Like I said elsewhere, I'm stupid & ignorant – I have a lot of distance to travel. At least, I'm aware of my stupidity & ignorance – what about those that aren't? My heart goes out to them – doesn't yours too?
    MN

  115. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Choice words, eh!!
    "and yet, you think and behaved like one of those braindead zombies"
    .
    The similarity is so blatant, isn't it? I've realized it myself in my personal life too. I used to *HATE* Islam so-much – that I almost turned to something like continuum. I've faced racism right here in the US (when I lived at Jacksonville FL) – the perpetrator a White Christian 'in REAL WORLD' (not an internet forum). It helped me appreciate the not-so-bad Hindus & the not-so-bad Xians & the not-so-bad Muslims too.
    .
    Anyway, Jai Ram ji ki & Vanakkam – I'm not going to stoop further to continuum's infinitesimally low-levels. Good luck to you, if you choose to do so, though!!

  116. continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    More good xian acts from your xian pastors.
    http://www.christianaggression.org/tactics_sexual

    4. Rape and Murder – In February 2005, a 14-year old school girl in Orissa was raped and killed and her mutilated body thrown to a nearby railway crossing in Dhenkanal for refusing to convert to Christianity. “One day, three Christian leaders, Prashant Ghose, D. V. John Sarangi and Rabi Naik alias D'Souza came to my home and asked me to convert to their religion, Christianity,” Shri Bej said and added that they promised him help in the form of money and material in his only daughter Jyotirmayee’s marriage. However, Shri Bej turned down their proposal.

    Then the local Church mandarins made a second attempt trying to allure Shri Bej’s wife Yasoda. “‘If you change over to Christianity, your daughter could get a good bridegroom as there are many well-to-do persons in our religion,’ Rabi Naik told me,” said a weeping Yasoda to Organiser and added that on that day, Shri Naik had threatened her with dire consequences if her family did not adopt Christianity.

    Following this threat, Bej’s daughter Jyotirmayee, a student of Class VIII in Saudamini Smruti Vidyapeeth, was reported missing from her school. Jyotirmayee’s friends intimated her family about this. A concerned father went to the police station and reported the matter. But the local police did not take it seriously. The next morning, Jyotirmayee’s naked mutilated body was found on the railway tracks. With ample circumstantial evidence of Jyotirmayee being raped and murdered, the local people staged a road blockade demanding the arrest of the culprits.

    In the FIR filed in the police station, Shri Alekh Bej has categorically mentioned names of Raju Naik, Rabi Naik and Ranjan Naik. “As I refused to convert, I had to face this consequence,” Shri Bej reported.

    Though the body of Jyotirmayee was found on February 17, till February 21 no one was arrested. The Bej family is unable to understand the inaction on the part of police to arrest the culprits. The Bej family has accused the police station incharge, Jyoti Ranjan Mohapatra, and DSP Mandardhar Sahoo of conniving with the culprits and allowing them to go scot-free. With district SP on leave, the law perhaps is yet to take its course.

  117. Continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    Do you really think all of these Hindus are lying? There are umpteen number of cases in India where Hindus and converts were sexually abused, many were young girls and boys and women, including nuns. None of these make mainstream news in west because only news regarding Hindus attacking scoundrel xian missionaries makes in west, while the reason behind such attacks does NOT make news at all since these poor Hindu tribals have no money or the control multi-million dollar churches possess. Such cases of abuse even against American Indians are coming out from last 200 year history in America.Xians are indeed devil worshipers just like muslims. You shall know by their fruits, ain't it ironical. Look at the thousands of pedophilia cases all over the world. How blind can you people be?

  118. Continuum says:

    More acts of sexual abuse of little boys, girls and women by good xian missionaries.
    http://www.christianaggression.org/tactics_sexual

    Body of 14-year old school girl, Jyotirmayee, who was raped, killed and mutilated for refusing to convert to Christianity.
    http://www.christianaggression.org/img/tactics_vi

    1. Sodomy – On November 11, 2000 Indian police arrested David Berry, a 51 year old British national for brutally sodomizing and perpetrating savage sexual abuse on at least 11 minor Hindu boys in the holy temple town of Puri, Orissa. Berry was assisted in his heinous crimes by Bijoy Behera, a local schoolteacher and recent convert to Christianity. The police were forced to arrest the two Christians following a complaint lodged by a victim's father, Shree Banamali Senapati. Initially despite his lodging of the complaint, the police dismissed the case and refused to arrest the perpetrators, but were forced to act when an angry mob from the town besieged them and threatened dire consequences if the guilty were not punished. Shree Senapati was in tears as he related how Berry had sodomized his traumatized 12-year-old son at least eight times in his hotel room and elsewhere. The boy related to the police that Berry had forced him to have oral sex and kept him a virtual prisoner in the hotel room for hours. He also revealed that the Briton had sodomized at least 10 other school children, all below the ages of 12. The children were so traumatized by Berry's threats and Behera's beatings that they did not dare to confess to the horrors visited upon them until young master Senapati could take no more and broke down to his father.

    2. Stripping – On October 9, 2000 a group of converted Christians stripped a 12-year-old tribal Hindu boy and paraded him naked in Gasukia village after he opposed attempts to convert him to Christianity. He was taken to the village school and brutally beaten for "refusing to accept Jesus as his savior". This event naturally led to communal tension as the Hindus were outraged at the heinous crimes being forced on them.

    3. Rape – In January 2002, American Missionary Reverend Joseph Cooper and Sam Benson were expelled from India after Benson was accused of raping a young Hindu girl and Cooper was accused of making inflammatory remarks against Hinduism. Both currently walk free and Cooper is a preacher in Connecticut. Western Media only reported how Hindus had retaliated against Cooper but did not mention that he incited locals by saying Lord Krishna "spreads AIDS". American Pastor Benson Sam and his wife Sally also were found guilty of abduction and rape of a minor girl. The poor orphan girl named Laly had allegedly been sexually abused and harassed for four months at the Bible Christian Centre, which had resulted in the issue of non-bailable warrants against Sam Benson and his son.

  119. Agracean says:

    Do you know that there are many radical muslims out there who produced all kinds of false accusations about them in the internet because of their good works? I believe that you can discern between the truth and such falsehoods, right?

    As for the deceased Australian missionary and his 2 young sons, I'm surprised that you can easily believe those murderer's false accusations easily without thinking further! Do you know he risked his lives ministering to the leprosy patients? Where is your conscience, Mr continuum? Do they deserved to die in such a manner for ministering to the poor Hindus? Please read about his good works which deserved our respect!

  120. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, your above comments show that there's something wrong with your commonsense and conscience. You're a regular visitor to FFI and Alisina.org and yet, you think and behaved like one of those braindead zombies!

    Don't you agree with me that many ex-muslims and ex-muslimahs are happy today because of heroes and heroines like Dr Ali Sina, Mr Robert Spencer, Ms Wafa Sultan, etc who chose to risk their very own dear lives daily to reach out to them? Do you blame them for sharing the truth with all the muslims and muslimahs in the world? Do you think that they are asking for trouble? Do you think that the muslims should burnt them alive for their good deeds?

  121. Continuum says:

    Don't trust anything – but don't immediately think it's a lie either. Be stupid – be like Ali Sina – be skeptic.
    .
    MN

    I wonder what this duratma_gandhu means?

  122. Continuum says:

    Ms. Grace, Whats wrong with you? Just because somebody points out the obvious evil christians missionaries do, one does NOT become a hatemonger. Just as pointing out evils of Islam and mullahs does NOT make one hatemonger, similarly pointing out evils of your priests and bible does NOT make one hatemonger.

    Those xian pastors who were burnt alive or harmed asked for trouble from local people. You should ask the question why they were attacked. Hindus are NOT violent under normal conditions, but when pushed enough they will react with violence when all other options do NOT work. The missionary who worked in Orissa had misbehaved with women. There are reasons for violent reactions which does NOT make headlines..
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/12oris.htm

    Defence witness claims Staines tried to molest her

    June 12, 2003 19:41 IST

    A female defence witness in the Staines murder case told the trial court on Thursday that the Australian missionary had tried to outrage her modesty…….
    Hemalata Karua, 32, of Machhagarh village in Keonjhar district told Khurda Sessions Judge M N Patnaik that she and her husband had been to a church in their village where they met Staines and his wife in October 1998.
    ………………………Stating that she stayed alone in a hut behind the local church that night, Karua alleged that the missionary came there later and attempted to outrage her modesty.

    She informed her husband the next morning and they left for their village.
    ============================

    Yes, the law is terribly against poor folks in India. The guy who murdered Staines, is well known to have had full support among poor tribals.

    Your missionaries are scoundrels, pedophiles, sex perverts exploitative bastards. I have no respect for these scoundrels whatsoever.

  123. sumayah says:

    damn!!!! (apologies if that was vulgar) , ali sina comes off strong!!!!
    but can we not refute the evil of islam with axioms of muhammad
    i guess thats the innate paradox in islam for you
    sometimes i just wish islam stood for it's original message:
    one god
    peace and respect
    but all the fiqh rules and hadith; shariah law
    . . . blah blah, the random (or so) violent verses in the Quran, dear me it will cost me some, but I do find more aggressive and demanding verses than the peaceful ones
    all i wanted was a simple faith, reasonable and not fluctuating with science
    ahhhh, too late, I should just be a deist
    its less incriminating

  124. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, what's wrong with you? Are you a hate monger or what? Why do you hate the Christians so much? Did Jesus Christ or any Christians owe you tons of money or what? As a Christian, I apologised to those Hindus who was offended by the priest or the nun's words or actions which I strongly believe were out of good intentions, even though I'm not a Catholic.

    As for those Chrsitian pastors/missionaries who were tortured, burnt alive and killed in India for spreading the love of Christ and also, the fragrance of the gospel of peace and declaring their love for all the Indians and Hindus in the land of India, I join them in their act of forgiving their tormentors and wishing them love, joy and peace, in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

  125. continuum says:

    Here is where the difference lies between Hindu orgs and xian/islamic orgs…Hindu orgs do NOT ever exploit any person's financial or other situations, while xian orgs are known for utilizing even natural disasters and even arm twist them, like Tsumani victims, in order to convert them. No traditional orthodox Hindu org ever descends to such a level. However modern so called Hindu orgs have had certain drawbacks, mainly because of converts from xian/islamic religions who carry on their dirty baggage.

    Conversion attempts in the time of grief http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/24shoba.htm

    Day two:

    As I was visiting the areas close to the sea that were badly affected by the tsunami waves, I saw another angry scene outside another temple in another village.

    Police jeeps were seen parked outside the temple in Samandapettai. So was a van.

    Villagers were complaining to the police about a missionary group to which the van belonged.

    They said the group had taken away to another place their belongings and the relief they had got from nongovernmental organisations and the government, which they had kept inside the temple, because they refused to listen to its missionaries.

    "They want to try their luck at some other place. Since we resisted, they took away our things. We won't allow this to happen," they said. "Why don't you arrest all of them?" the villagers asked the police.

    The villagers' torrent of angry words continued. "We have lost everything to the sea. They said they would help us if we followed their religion. What logic is this? Are they here to help us or change our religion?" The police couldn't cool their tempers.

    The group said it did not take away the belongings of the villagers and insisted that the contents inside the van belonged to it.

    That evening, some villagers came with the news that the police had arrested the priest they had confronted the previous day. Apparently some angry villagers had gheraoed him, and forced the police to arrest him.

    "He shouldn't be doing this when we are grieving, when we are suffering. Everything has its time and place," a villager said.

    When I wanted to talk to the panchayat president and locals of the Karakkalmedu village at Karaikkal, they called me inside the village temple. That was where they met outsiders. The temple has become the centre of activity in the village.

    Before we started talking, one of them opened the door to the sanctum sanctorum and pointed to a mark left by the strong tsunami waves. They told me that water stopped at the feet of their deity and then receded. "We might have suffered, but our Goddess saved us."

    This belief had taken the villagers all the more closer to their deity.

    "That is why it hurts us when others come and tell us that it was because of our God and our belief that we suffered. We won't let anyone exploit us when we are down," the panchayat members asserted.

  126. continuum says:

    At the least Amritanandamayi, ISKON, Yogananda Sat-Sang etc. do NOT go around preaching others are devil worshipers and spreading hatred, like your babble and koran idiots. What huge money, they are barely surviving….they are NOT like your vatican and other organizations who spend in hundreds of millions and earn even more through proselytization. Your vatican pays in 100s of millions for pediphilia victims, shows how much more they made?

  127. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, you can check with Dr Ali Sina for the truth if your father has the absolute control and choice to give birth to you or not?

  128. continuum says:

    Why should I define? What if there is no such word in Vedas or Upanishads? Do you think I give hoots about what you think about me or my faith or lack of it? It does NOT matter what you believe about me?

    But it is quite clear that you are NO Hindu from the simple fact that your question on Meera betrayed your utter ignorance. No Hindu will ask such a stupid question, unless you are one posing as Hindu online. This is clear evidence what you are….

  129. continuum says:

    wikipedia may say anything..anybody can put anything there…now me quoting wiki is only to show novice imbeciles on some information…Do you know what the word "Paisacha" means? Why do you think it was named so? Now do the google search just as you did for "apasampradaya"…..By the way it is and was prohibited for civilized Hindus right from the beginning….however NOT prohibited for barbarians for they were too barbaric…..

  130. continuum says:

    Simple…Name does NOT matter….This religion is NOT monolithic..end of story…There is no point going into this..Politicians are opportunists..they will say anything to anybody..only they know their real agenda…Ram is married to swiss xian, Indira married to a Muslim or Zoroastrian, nehru's real origins are steeped in controversy….forget about all these…I still do NOt see any relevance to all your questions…the endless BS you are quoting is getting nowhere….the point remains you do NOT even know the date Mira existed…which shows what a cowardly LYING xian scum you are to pose as a Hindu here…

  131. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Microsoft Windows *sucks* – it's a general opinion. Whether it's Windows 3.1 or Windows 98 or Windows Me (Millenium edition) or XP or NT or 2000 or Vista or Windows 7 – doesn't change it. Similarly, your 'updated' version of Hindu-ism might 'PROHIBIT' Pisacha Vivah – but at some 'earlier' point, Hindu-ism *DID NOT PROHIBIT* such a vivaha.
    .
    So, you see, unless you 'define' HINDU, you'll continue your blind-faith both in this ancient religion & about me being a non-Hindu. Again, I ask you to show JUST *ONE* occurance of the word HINDU, referring to a person or a population, in the Vedas, Upanishads.
    .
    MN
    .
    PS: Have you thought about how Hindu institutions proselytize & earn huge amounts of money? (Mata Amritanandamayi, ISKON, Yogananda Sat-Sang – YSS-SRF, just to name a few). Heck, even Nithyananda used to get foreigners contributing to his cult movement – which was very much a part of the Hindu majority until a few months back.

  132. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Thanks – so, now you definitely have to 'define' what, in your opinion, is "HINDU" / Hindu-ism. Wishy-washy answer like 'rose is a rose…' is escapism.
    .
    In the Wikipedia link, note "This kind of marriage was later prohibited." statement. It means that at 'some later date' this type was prohibited (by the *HINDU* vivaha laws). So, in other words, at some 'earlier' time it was 'NOT PROHIBITED'. If a type of food is NOT PROHIBITED, will people consume it? Some may, some may not. But, no rule or enforcing authority can punish a person for doing something that is 'NOT PROHIBITED'. Hence, as per the Hindu law, at some 'earlier' point in time, a person can indulge in Pisacha Vivaha & it was NOT PROHIBITED.

  133. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    "Another ridiculous discussion on the orgin of word Hinduism is irrelevant…A rose by any other name is still a rose…if you get what I say…I do NOT understand what is the relevance of the nonsense link….just do NOT even bother…"
    "exactly WHAT", in your opinion, is "Hindu"-ism? How could you or I claim to be a Hindu or a Non-Hindu, if we don't even share a common understanding / definition of the term 'Hindu'. In your opinion, Mr. P. Chidambaram, Mr. Mani Shankar "Aiyer" & a plethora of other 'political leaders' of India aren't HINDU, right (because they're all hand-in-glove with Sonia)? What about the news-paper "The Hindu" & it's owner Mr. N. Ram – is he Hindu? What about Late Mrs. Priyadarshini Feroze Khan (more commonly known as Indira Gandhi) – was she a Hindu? Are her children & their progeny "Hindu"? What about Varun "Feroze" Gandhi – is he Hindu?
    .
    MN <contd>

  134. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Thank you!! I agree – to reject (entirely & without complete knowledge) is at the other end of the spectrum. We have fanatics at both extremes. Do you think there are extremists in the between, too?
    In my personal life, I've had certain very specific incidents (obviously involving Muslims) that lead me to read their book – the Quran.
    Unrelated to it, if you think it's fit sharing, here's a blog-post, http://viewed-thru-saffron-glasses.blogspot.com/2
    I got the Youtube sources from Gary Rumains blog (http://madaboutmahound.blogspot.com/), though.
    MN

  135. Ali Sina says:

    Welcome to the comments section.

    It is always good to question our own beliefs. This is the beginning of wisdom. Questioning is not the same as rejecting. I question all religions but do not reject them. I can see good and bad in many of them. It is important to pick the good and leave the bad. The problem with the believer is that he can’t separate the two. He has to accept everything.

  136. Continuum says:

    You are right…including the nonsense book cc….these are apasampradayas…..your question whether Mira was mistress is ridiculously stupid only a non-Hindu is capable of asking..no amount of tap dancing is going to fool me…you caught apasampradaya (probably from web), but missed the date 16 th century AD…..which shows how stupid your question was….Whether fanatasy or real is NO issue to me….what bothers me is fools trying to portray preying evangelists as the ones who do good….that exposes who you really are? I have no respect for such scoundrels….How does it matter what Panchali did…does it have any bearing on how Hindus should act now? absolutely NOT…now when you worship a god who says raping infidel women is ok after killing off their husbands just because they are unbelievers, now that has a bearing on the morality of followers…

    Another ridiculous discussion on the orgin of word Hinduism is irrelevant…A rose by any other name is still a rose…if you get what I say…I do NOT understand what is the relevance of the nonsense link….just do NOT even bother…

  137. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Don't blindly copy-paste, sir.
    .
    The word apasampradaya – apa, in Sanskrit, is like 'un' or 'mis' prefix in English. And, 'sampradaya' means traditional / bonafide. So, the word 'apasampradaya' means going 'against the tradition and/or vedas/smritis/sastras'.
    .
    Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi lila 7:48
    Link: Look at "Adi 7.48" http://krishna.org/the-bottom-line-narayana-mahar
    .
    So, you do agree Meera was 'against traditions' & ergo fit to be criticized accordingly, okay? What about "Panchali" – another such wonderful 'pious' fantasy character, eh?
    .
    Before I respond any further, in your 'own' words / opinion, who is a HINDU? What is the difference between a Hindu & 'any person' living near the 'Indus River'? Show me JUST *ONE* occurance of the word HINDU (to describe a human or a population) in the Vedas, Upanishad. JUST *ONE* occurance.
    .
    MN

  138. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Appreciate the response, Mr Sina.
    .
    I used to believe in multiple fantasies – including, but not limited to, Jesus, Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc – but I'm now at the pre-beginner stage of questioning my own set of beliefs. While, as an Indian & as a Hindu, I understand each & every point 'continuum' has made – it is sad that one has to indulge in personal attacks. As you 'might have' observed, I'm a very new member to this comments section – although I've been silently following many of the posts in both FFI & here from 2008 Nov (the Nov 26 attacks at Mumbai).
    .
    I hope to visit & post more often.
    .
    MN

  139. Arya Anand says:

    Mr.Ali, I expected such a statement from you to come earlier. Since you were quiet, I even thought you were not bothered about the comment section being hijacked by heated discussion on other religions, from the goal of this site.

  140. SADAF says:

    WARNING: RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN THE DISCUSSION! DON'T DEBATE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BANG YOUR HEAD ON THE WALL

  141. willy says:

    Yep, this woman is characterless.

  142. Continuum says:

    Ms. Grace,

    I have to admit that I have NOT seen anyone more dirty mouthed than xians in general. But you exceed even the worst dirty mouthed xians I have ever seen in mu life.

    1. Again, contraceptive or NOT, human beings have no control over biological process of birth. It just happens once it is initiated. Guess your dumb mind understands my point. Parents cannot love me when I do NOT exist or before conception. So your point that my parents gave birth to me because they love me is idiotic suggestion. They may love me after the fact of conception in womb. Back to your question, since human beings have no control over birth or death, and accept this as part of life they give birth to children to continue their family. Your god however knowingly creates sinful people, death, hell, eternal punishment etc. when he allegedly has control over all these things and can change it for the better at creation itself. Parents have no such control over birth process.

    2. Again I used the word "allegedly has control". Your god does NOT even has control over his own mind and is clearly insane for committing suicide in order to convince himself that his creation is worthy of himself. This is insanity and you can call it "righteousness".

    3. People would NOT got hell, unless your allegedly loving god has created hell in the first place. This shows your god is evil sadistic devil.

    4. Physical or spiritual, insanity belongs to the mind of your alleged creator insane god. Since he convinced himself through self-torture, he must be eternally mad creature. No wonder xians are mad people worshiping an insane vengeful jealous god, all qualities being that of the devil rather than a benevolent being.

  143. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, yes, I agree with you that no loving parents on this troublesome planet earth would like to see their child being tortured alive in hell. Similarly, my loving Creator God also does not intend any souls to go to hell since He loves us so much. That's why He chose to die for our sins so that we might live again and have life to the fullest and became perfect beings again and fellowship with Him in Heaven above, just like Adam and Eve, communing with God in the Garden of Eden.

    I don't know if a good human being like you who doesn't want to accept Jesus's love will go to hell or not because I'm not God anyway, this is between you and God.

  144. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, I'm interested to know your view on what will happen to us after death, based on your own understanding and belief.

  145. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, since you disagree with everything that my loving Creator God has done, including the existence of Heaven and hell and does not believe that God even exist. Maybe you'll like to tell me according to your understanding, what will happen to llhuman beings after death? What will be the fate of bad people like Muhammad bin Abdullah, Adolf Hitler, Pol pot, etc. How about the fate of good people like Dr Ali Sina, Robert Spencer, Wafa Sultan, etc? I'm very interested in your views if there is life afer death or what?

  146. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, with regard to your question 4, I can only say that you've got to understand that we are not talking about breaking physical laws only but spiritual laws too when we sinned against God!

  147. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, with regard to your question 3, I strongly believe that you'll agree with me, Dr Ali Sina and Albert Einstein that this marvellous Universe is governed by many invisible laws and it applies to Heaven too except hell because it is a place of lawlessness. So, only through Jesus Christ, our only Saviour, can we enter Heaven because He has fulfilled the requirements of God's law on our behalf. As for those rebellious fool, they perfer to go to hell because there's no law and accountability there, so Mr conituum, are you one of the fools?

  148. Agracean says:

    Mr dumb continuum, with regard to your question 2, as what I've explained so many times in my earlier comments. God is righteous, holy and just. At the same time, He's also loving and forgiving. We, human beings, have wilfully chose to sin against God and broke God's law and as a result, we have brought miseries to planet earth. But His great unconditional love toward us has moved Him to condescend to become like one of us and He lived to die, to be that perfect scapegoat to bore all our sins upon Himself and to pay the price for our redemption and to rose again from death on the 3rd day for our justification. He did this out of love for every sinners like you and me.

  149. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, thanks for confessing that my loving Creator God has control over our soul because of the fact that He created us and that's why we all belong to Him. But will you please be a good, mature and responsible man and stop pushing all the blame to my loving Creator God or your beloved parents for all your wrong choices and actions.

  150. Agracean says:

    Excuse me, Mr silly continuum, with reagard to your question 1. May I know how old are you? Are you just a 8yrs old kid or what? Did you attend any sex education or biology classes at all? Your above comment shows that you are just a kid! Have you heard of contraceptive pills, condom and other contraceptive methods? The fact that your dad has the choice to deposit his sperm into or outside your mum's vagina proves that he has the choice whether to give birth to you or not. If you are unsure or doubt my words, kindly humble yourself and discuss this love issue with you beloved parents. By the way, aren't you a grown up man and how can you don't know this important fact that you have the absolute control over your penis? Or could it be true that you are impotent or that you are a woman?LOL

  151. Ali Sina says:

    Attention everyone,

    Neither this site, nor faithfreedom.org is for religious discussions. Please refrain promoting any religion or attacking them. I respect people’s choice to believe in whatever they want, even when I don’t agree with those beliefs, at least in my sites.

    The reason I am against Islam is not because I think it is a false faith. It is, but there are many false faiths that I don’t bother to criticize. The reason is that Islam is a violent creed that wants to take over the world through terror and dominate everybody’s life. I am against all ideologies of hate, be it Nazism, communism or Islam.

    It is okay to believe in lies. How many times have you changed your views and beliefs? If you are smart and your brain is not fossilized the answer is many times. The reason you changed your views is because you realized what you believed was not true.

    We all believe in lies. It is good to be aware of it and don’t die or kill someone for what we believe. After all it could be a lie. But it is not okay to be abusive, intolerant and fight for what we belief. This fighting for what we believe, which is so part of Islam, is the root cause of all the evil.

    Please limit your discussion to Islam. Don’t promote and don’t attack other faiths. That kind of religious discussion is good and dandy but it has nothing to do with my goal. My goal is to destroy Islam and rid the world of this evil ideology of hate.

    Thanks for paying attention.

  152. Continuum says:

    Please tell me what do you want Jesus to do for such a group of prideful and unrepentant souls?
    =================================
    Well, since you seem to have direct contact with your insane god, ask him all the questions I have asked you and let him come over to ffi and type in the answers.

  153. Continuum says:

    Golden rule predates and existed even before your insane god was allegedly born. Your god is most definitely the author of insane self-torturing suicidal act in order to convince himself that his alleged creation (which includes everything in your god's imagination while in reality he could NOT even create a logical coherent belief system) can be admitted to your god's imaginary paradise and NOT sent to his hallucination about hell. All in all, your god was hallucinating and insane.

  154. Continuum says:

    1. Are you this dumb? My parents did NOT choose to give birth to me. It happened as a process of biological procreation. They had NO control over giving birth to me particularly or to some other person and/or soul, but your god allegedly has control over every soul's and person's make up at birth. Hence he is responsible for all the soul's choices for making him the way the soul is.

    2. Since you agreed that "'eternal punishment or eternal vengeance' were bore by Jesus Christ", you do agree that your allegedly loving god has "eternal hatred" in him. Clearly a loving god cannot have such emotions as "eternal vengeance or hatred or punishment".

    3. if your cheesus christ bore the "eternal vengeance" on himself, why are non-believers punished with "eternal hell"? It is irrelevant if they accepted or not this so called suicide of your god.

    4. Since your god allegedly paid through sacrifice ONLY to justify his creation to his own self, he must be insane. This is like a teacher who taught wrong lessons and in order to justify the failures of his student and pass him, he tortures himself to death and then gives passing grade to student. Its really stupid insanity. How can insane god be trusted?

  155. Agracean says:

    Mr Arya Anand, let's wait and see who's insane! 🙂

  156. Arya Anand says:

    Ms.Agracean, I think there is no limit to your insanity.

  157. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, the Author of the Golden Rule has fulfilled the Golden Rule and sacrificed Himself so as to save His neighbors. Yet, there are still people like you still chose to remain unrepentant and ungrateful towards His great sacrifice and His forgiviness of their sins. Please tell me what do you want Jesus to do for such a group of prideful and unrepentant souls?

  158. Agracean says:

    Mr Arya Anand, why jump to such a quick conclusion and miss your eternal salvation through Jesus Christ?

  159. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, let me ask you this super simple question with regard to your first question, in order to help you understand why my loving Creator God chose to create human beings and given us the freedom of choice to sin or not to sin against Him.

    Please tell me why did your beloved parents chose to give birth to you although they knew that you'll die anytime after birth?

    With regard to your second question, let me gently remind you again that the 'eternal punishment or eternal vengeance' were bore by Jesus Christ when He died on that old rugged cross and rose again on the 3rd day for our justification. He paid it all on our behalf of which it suits my loving Creator God.

  160. Arya Anand says:

    It's logical point but illogical persons, that is, Christian believers like Grace will never accept it. The entire Christian concept of salvation is nothing but garbage.

  161. Continuum says:

    1. A perfect loving god will NOT punish eternally his own creation. It is like the teacher punishing one's own student because the teacher taught him wrong things. Since your allegedly all knowing god knowingly created the human being who would sin, he s liable for the sin of knowingly creating them the way they are.

    2. Punishment is for correction. Eternal punishment is for vengeance which does NOT suit an allegedly loving creator.
    =============

    Your demonic god is a false god.

  162. Agracean says:

    Similarly, my perfect loving and righteous God Who has created this marvellous Universe and all its laws, must also has His own set of perfect and righteous laws and principles, right?

    So, when we, human beings, were once perfect beings wilfully chose to sin against God, we deserved to bear the ultimate price for the penalty of our sin because we broke God's law.

  163. Agracean says:

    Mr continuum, I strongly believe that you'll agree with me that this marvellous Universe is governed by a set of laws and every nations on this troublesome planet earth also have set their own laws for its citizens to abide, so as to ensure law and order in the country.

    If this great Universe is lawless, there will chaos in the outer space and if every nations on earth have no state laws, there'll be lawlessness everywhere.

    If any planets wilfully choose to break a universal law, it spells trouble for planet earth. If any citizen in a country kills another fellow citizen, he will be charged under the law for murder.

  164. continuum says:

    May be the Bible does contain that – and more of such things. Where are Xians that follow those in real world of today? I can show thousands of Sanathan Dharmis in INDIA that love & respect Arthanatheswar & other such deities.
    =================================================

    Now this must be the most silly comparison of apples and oranges…..

    and I can show you many examples where xians believe in Adam and Eve, talking snakes, talking donkeys, flying dead jewish corpse that is still alive etc. etc. so what…

    ======================================
    Why did the mother of Nakul & Sahadev kill herself – whereas Kunti did not? Was Sati not prelevant even in your oh-so-sacred fantasy stories?
    ================================================

    Sati was done voluntarily by women who loved their husband very much…it was never forced upon women at the least scripturally…Kunti decided to live for the children.

    =====================================
    What do you have to say about the sex book Kama Sutra?
    ==================================

    I guess it must be a good one….I have never tried it before….perhaps you should….

    ===========================================
    All your more recent "Gurus" too have involved in all sorts of immoral activities. What about Nithyananda & Sai baba and the others of that ilk? Your statement about Xians & Xianity is "Pot calling the Kettle black".
    ========================================

    Can you point one authentic Hindu scripture advising Hindus to act like above…Hindus are NOT perfect….Kama Sutrais NO Hindu scripture if you did not get it…..

    However, your bible is full of verses where your sex maniac pimp god allows raping infidel women after killing their male guardians…..What say you about that?

    ========================
    As a Shaivite – tell me why would a Sanathan Dharmi respect the Geeta or the Mahabharath or Ramayan – because all those fantasies are of Vishnu's avatar. So, why does a majority of the spineless fools of my nation think the Geetha is so great? Why not the Shiv Puran?
    ==========================

    I do NOT know what BS you are talking about here….Gita is great because of its teachings….Understanding Gita requires some brain functionality, which I do NOT think you possess being born a stupid crustian…

  165. continuum says:

    Ahh……this exposes who you really are?
    ===========================
    What is "Paishacha Vivah"?
    ==============================

    If you are Hindu you will know better than this….Shows you are no Hindu, but a scoundrel xian, acting like a Hindu.

    Now Paisacha vivaha is one of marriages early barbarians used to practice. Hindu scriptures merely list the types of marriages that used to exist in society. This does NOT authorize such marriages for Hindus. Infact Hindus are allowed only 3 types of marriages, one arranged between two familes, two love marriage and third through financial transaction. In all types, women's consent is important.

    =================
    In fact, as per one of the Satsang I attended, women could be married off to men by their husbands,
    ====================

    LOL…Now do NOT build stories out of your mind……Hinduism DOES NOT allow married women to get married again at all under any circumstance….so this clearlu bull shit..

    ====================
    Who was "Meera" to Krishna? His Mistress?
    =============================

    Are you really Hindu? Any idiots among Hindu knows this? LOL…..What a moron…

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera

    Meerabai (Rajasthani: मीराबाई) (c.1498-c.1547AD) (alternate orthographies: Meera; Mira; Meera Bai) was an aristocratic Hindu mystical singer and sahajiya (apasampradaya) devotee of lord Krishna from Rajasthan and one of the most significant figures of the Sant tradition of the Vaishnava bhakti movement.

  166. continuum says:

    "The spineless & foolish Majority of my country are the ones that put people like that minister in that post. "
    ================

    That is because, they are brainless like you, people like you converting into an idiotic abrahamic religion having no knowledge of Hinduism in the first place. No wonder many idiots like you think evangelists preach love….what can I say when there are idiots like you among majority…

    Any person with an iota of brain will know that evangelists have political motives, increasing numbers and facilitating political, economic and finally military control over locals by foreigners…..but with idiots like you this will go at a faster pace…

  167. continuum says:

    Here are examples of your "evagelist love affair" with Indians

    Hell's Angel: Mother Teresa by Christopher Hitchens (1 of 3)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKkcDgeYBdk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGuzFUeDDgY

    Conversion attempts in the time of grief
    http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/24shoba.htm

    Day two:

    As I was visiting the areas close to the sea that were badly affected by the tsunami waves, I saw another angry scene outside another temple in another village.

    Police jeeps were seen parked outside the temple in Samandapettai. So was a van.

    Villagers were complaining to the police about a missionary group to which the van belonged.

    They said the group had taken away to another place their belongings and the relief they had got from nongovernmental organisations and the government, which they had kept inside the temple, because they refused to listen to its missionaries.

    "They want to try their luck at some other place. Since we resisted, they took away our things. We won't allow this to happen," they said. "Why don't you arrest all of them?" the villagers asked the police.

    The villagers' torrent of angry words continued. "We have lost everything to the sea. They said they would help us if we followed their religion. What logic is this? Are they here to help us or change our religion?" The police couldn't cool their tempers.

    The group said it did not take away the belongings of the villagers and insisted that the contents inside the van belonged to it.

    That evening, some villagers came with the news that the police had arrested the priest they had confronted the previous day. Apparently some angry villagers had gheraoed him, and forced the police to arrest him.

    "He shouldn't be doing this when we are grieving, when we are suffering. Everything has its time and place," a villager said.

    When I wanted to talk to the panchayat president and locals of the Karakkalmedu village at Karaikkal, they called me inside the village temple. That was where they met outsiders. The temple has become the centre of activity in the village.

    Before we started talking, one of them opened the door to the sanctum sanctorum and pointed to a mark left by the strong tsunami waves. They told me that water stopped at the feet of their deity and then receded. "We might have suffered, but our Goddess saved us."

    This belief had taken the villagers all the more closer to their deity.

    "That is why it hurts us when others come and tell us that it was because of our God and our belief that we suffered. We won't let anyone exploit us when we are down," the panchayat members asserted.

  168. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viv%C4%81ha#Type_of_marriage&quot;
    .
    Slavery, Rape – are you kidding me? What is "Paishacha Vivah"? In fact, as per one of the Satsang I attended, women could be married off to men by their husbands, even – at one particular stage in Sanathan Dharm. Basically, a woman was treated as an object to help procreate & continue the generation of the man.
    .
    Who was "Meera" to Krishna? His Mistress?
    .
    MN

  169. continuum says:

    "No point shouting at evangelical people – they're only preaching love."

    This one point is enough to show who you really are? You are a stinking xian scoundrel no matter how often you shout you are Hindu.

    The claim that evangelical people (people like benny hinn, pat robertson and their followers etc.) preach love can be only given by a xian nutcase like yourself.

    "The Honorable Defense Minister of that country coined & popularized the term Saffron Terror & Hindu Terror."

    The "honorable idiotic defense minister" being a follower of Italian xian bitch will say anything…

    "Okay, so how'd you accept I'm not some non-Hindu? Would my saying the "Abhivadaye… including my gothra & other details' be satisfactory for you? "

    Well if you are really a Hindu you must be convert to xianity….that would explain the idiotic post here….claiming evangelists are preaching "love"…..anybody can get anything these days from the net…proves nothing…

  170. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Okay, so how'd you accept I'm not some non-Hindu? Would my saying the "Abhivadaye… including my gothra & other details' be satisfactory for you?
    .
    Before going there – please 'define' who is a HINDU, in your opinion. I consider followers of Sanathan Dharm that originated from somewhere in what is called Bharath in the Puranas as Hindus of today – and that term 'Hindu' IMHO is a misnomer. The proper term should be Sanathan Dharmi.
    .
    SD (Sanathan Dharm) might not be 'as PREDATORY as' certain other religions. However, it is still very much looking for converts. The fact that a majority of Hindus (especially of that third world filthy stinking excuse of a nation whose citizen I am, INDIA) are spineless cowards following a horribly mis-guided person named M.K.Gandhi. The Honorable Defense Minister of that country coined & popularized the term Saffron Terror & Hindu Terror. The spineless & foolish Majority of my country are the ones that put people like that minister in that post.
    .
    I am very much a part & parcel of my nation – and I'm angry & sad that it's such a horrible mess. No point shouting at evangelical people – they're only preaching love. I've personally been abused by a Christian American in 'real' life – but that doesn't mean they're to be mocked. And, I have a lot of very genuine Muslim friends – but that doesn't mean Islam is to be NOT mocked.
    .
    Don't trust anything – but don't immediately think it's a lie either. Be stupid – be like Ali Sina – be skeptic.
    .
    MN

  171. Continuum says:

    Every sane human being like me in your god's shoes would NO commit the suicidal insane sacrifice in the first place. Even if somebody rejects I would NOT send them to eternal hell. I would see what their motive was and what heir actions were and give them finite results as per their capacity. Definitely NOT send them to hell like your crazy diabolical demonic god.

  172. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, may I ask you a simple quesiton. If you put yourself in God's shoes, what would you do with those rebellious fools who rejected your love sacrifice and choose to rebel against you for fun? And what would you do, if you are God, to make sure that Heaven is a safe place?

  173. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, why don't you be serious and stop spouting nonsense for once? We are not talking about the physical realm but the spiritual realm. The government in this world are mere human beings and they will all pass away. Yes, you are right to say that they will not punish you for your thought crimes.

    But after you expired, it's a totally different story. You are accountable to God for your words and deeds in life because everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. So, you have the ultimate choice to love God or hate Him.

  174. Agracean says:

    Mr dumbo Continuum, please use your mustard seed size brain to think if you can choose to be born into this troublesome world or not! Once upon a time, you were just a tiny sperm in your father's testes and you won the competition and became what you are today. And you blame God for not giving you a choice to choose life or death.

    On the day of your expiry date, you blame God again for giving you too much human rights and choices to choose to between life and death!

    So, Mr Continuum, don't you think that my loving Creator God is too kind and patient with all these ungrateful human beings?

  175. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, are you living in an uncivilised era or what? Why are you so easily offended with my comments about the stark fact about sperm which everybody should know? Why don't you adopt a good attitude and start to think positively? Your negative attitude and your asinine obstinancy are destroying your capability to think properly and correctly.

    Yes, I can also choose to talk about your other body parts eg. prostrate, stomach, tongue, etc. But I think that the sperms in your scrotum are a good reminder to remind you how great ismy loving Creator God. By the way, don't you agree with me that I am a free person in this world and I have the human right to talk about any of one your body parts? 🙂

  176. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, are you living in an uncivilised era or what? Why are you so easily offended with my comments about the stark fact about sperm which everybody should know? Why don't you adopt a good attitude and start to think positively? Your negative attitude and your asinine obstinancy are destroying your capability to think properly and correctly.

    Yes, I can also cgreat is my loving Creator God. By the way, don't you agree with me that I am a free person in this world and I have the human right to talk about any of your hoose to talk about your other body parts eg. prostrate, stomach, tongue, etc. But I think that the sperms in your scrotum are a good reminder to remind you how body parts to show you how great my loving Creator God is? 🙂

  177. Continuum says:

    his great "Love and salvation plan" is either believe in me or end up in eternal hell….NOT unlike demandsof profiteer Muhammad.

  178. Continuum says:

    Ms. Stupid Grace,

    the 'protection money' your impotent god asks for is belief in him for the security of heaven, otherwise the result is hell like the criminal don putting a bullet on your head…your god is like unto a miserable criminal gang leader.

    You can disagree with government and will NOT be punished for thought crimes, unlike your criminal insane impotent gd who punishes with eternity of torment in hell only for thought crime of NOT believing in your diabolical god.

  179. Continuum says:

    The fact that you chose my private part and sperm count to show how "great" your imaginary god is tells something about your intent…could you not chose other examples? your impotent insane god is nor capable enough to create anything..

  180. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, why be so quick to judge the Bible without spending any effort and time to read and study the whole book carefully and realized that God is love and that right from the first book of the Bible, He revealed His great love and salvation plan for mankind!

  181. Agracean says:

    Mr idiotic Continuum, stop spouting nonsense! Where in this troublesome world did my loving Creator God demands any sane human beings to pay 'protection money' to Him in exchange for security?

    Don't you know that even a free country like USA also need a government to govern and protect its sane citizens from lawless man like you?

    Please be informed that my loving Creator God is a gentleman and He never threatens but warns a lawless man like you that hell is real because He loves you very much!

  182. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, admit it that you are amazed at my omnipotent God's handiwork as you can't comprehend how those tiny little sperms in your scrotum can swim by itself! Why are you so embarassed when I simply reminded you to take a good look at your male sex organ so that you cannot deny the facts that God is your Creator? Come on, I'm more interested to help you come to terms with the absolute truth than to be interested in your private parts!

  183. Continuum says:

    Now just because certain people do not accept what America does in regard to terrorism, does it mean they are with terrorists..

    similarly just because people do not accept your insane suicidal egotistic god, does it mean necessarily they are with satan?

    Didn't your god create satan and his rebel angels? so how come an allegedly loving god created hell for his own creations? does NOT sound like a loving god for me…even a human parent would NOT like to see their children being barbecued alive in hell even for a moment, much less said about eternity of torment in hell. However your god is loving no matter if he wants his creation to suffer in hell eternally..this is what I call idiotic belief…l

  184. Continuum says:

    I wonder what there to read correctly in an asinine bible the first half of which teaches sexual slavery and slavery, genocide, stoning, looting etc. etc. of non-believers and second half teaches a god who is allegedly so unconditionally loving that he sends souls to eternal hell for not believing in his suicidal attempt to convince himself of forgiving his creation…Some people cannot be woken up…

  185. Continuum says:

    Ms. dumb idiot Grace,

    Would you like to live under a free country with sane people or under a criminal DOn who promises to protection you if you pay him protection money, which you call as security…how different is your god who threatens souls with eternal hell unless you accept him, which you call as security and love…

  186. Continuum says:

    I used the word "allegedly omnipotent". I never called your impotent insane god as omnipotent…I do NOT know why you or your god is interested in my male sex organ or my sperm count…. iwonder why crustians always turn out to be perverts and pedophiles…like your priests….like father like son…or in your case like father like daughter…

  187. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, there's no way that you can compare my loving Creator God to a criminal gang leader! As what I've repeated so many times before that hell was created for those evil rebellious spiritual beings and God never intended any human being to go to that place of torment! How can you blame God for those insane human beings who HAVE MADE THE CHOICE to reject His love and salvation plan through Jesus Christ and join the devil in his great rebellion against God? How can you blame God for all those fools' DECISION, DESIRE AND CHOICE to go to hell?

  188. Continuum says:

    Stupidity exists in your mind, for making stupid conclusions based on strawman fallacies…Don't bother about it – or get down to rid your mind of it?

  189. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, how can you jump to such a stupid conclusion without challenging yourself to read and study the Bible correctly and creafully? Why let your asinine obstinancy which is your greatest weakness to be the stumbling block for you to come to terms with the Way, the Truth and the Life?

  190. Continuum says:

    There you go….so you are a crustian pretending to be a Hindu….My question what were the predatory crustian pastor doing in Hindu area? "Saffron terror"…what terror…this is typical xian scums like yourselves making up non-existent terror….If anything Hindus were merely reactng to xian terrorism executed by maoist xian henchmen…

  191. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, your above comment show that you are a lawless man and you prefer lawlessness than righteousness. Come on, show me where in this troublesome planet earth can you find a country which has no laws at all to protect its citizen from lawless man like you?

    Mr dumb Continuum, do you want to live in a lawless country where there's no security forces at all? I definitely don't want to live in such a country where rapists, robbers, murderers and all kinds of rogues roam freely everywhere! How about you, Mr Continuum?

    So, do you understand now why my loving Creator God has to die on your behalf to pay the price for your sins and raised again on the third say for your jsutification?

  192. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, thanks for your confession that my loving Creator God is omnipotent and that's the reason why He is so much greater and wiser than you can ever know as your small brain has its limitations. So, how can you fathom the ways of God which is so much higher and greater than yours?

    The Bible stated clearly that due to the great rebellion in Heaven by Lucifer and one-third of the angels, hell was created for them. Who are you to question God's sovereignty over this matter when you don't even know how all the sperms in both of your testes can swim and move by themselves freely within your scrotum without your intervention?

    So, Mr Continuum, it's time for you to take a good look at your male sex organ and come to terms with the absolute truth that you belong to my loving Creator God!

  193. Continuum says:

    I think I pissed off some crustian too much for him/her to appear as a hindu and post irrelevant nonsense…LOL…..some gems from crustian bible on women, sexual slavery etc…

    "And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26

    1 Corinthians 11:7-9:"For a man…is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head."

    Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife…wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

    Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

    At the least Hindus do NOT believe in sexual slavery and rape like the bible and koran…sati was practiced by minuscule minority f Hindus historically, unlike the sexual slavery and slavery practiced by your xrustian and abrahamic brothers……

  194. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Simple – stupiditly exists across religions & races. Don't bother about it – or get down to rid the world of it?

  195. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    Why would we 'restrict' the issue of proselytization to just this forum? There are predatory religions & there are non-predatory ones. Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism – one usually doesn't find them hunting for 'converts'. Certain other religions DO HUNT.
    .
    I don't find any reason these hunting religions need to be shunned. Islam, of course, doesn't fall into the classification 'religion' as far as I am concerned – so that's out of this context.
    .
    Hindus believing in 33 gazillion gods is not a problem 'right now' – because you still don't have ENOUGH SAFFRON TERROR units operating across the globe. But, that doesn't mean there were no cruel murders in Orrisa of a Christian pastor & his family.
    .
    Why don't you clarify what the 'certain religion' is?

  196. Continuum says:

    I do NOT know what relevance this garbage post has to the topic?

  197. Continuum says:

    Well do you find Hindus trying to proselytize here? no….only followers of a "certain religion" do it here…my comment in that context…If Hindus believe 3 billion Gods what is your problem? Nobody is asking you to believe in them, unlike the followers of a "certain religion" here…who cares what you believe in truth?

  198. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    One more comment,
    .
    Why can't god be a "SHE". Does this G-d have a set of specific genetic qualities to be classified as the "HE" of the species he/she belongs to?
    .
    To answer this, I think, we Hindus have this so-called avatar named "Arthanatheshwar" – an avatar that is half man & half woman. [Google-results: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&amp;… lol. may be that's true too – so God is actually an Hermaphrodite.. Anyway, some in the Hindu religion state this 'avatar' is to confirm the equality of the Husband & Wife in a house-hold – but it sure is the weirdest method to show that – IMO. And, guess what, Hindus practised Sati – to *allow* the wifey to die when the husband dies – so much for equality, eh? And a lot of Hindu 'avatars' had 2 or more wives (Karthikey, Krishna, to name a few).

  199. Duratma_Gandhi says:

    I don't think it's just "A CERTAIN RELIGION" – it's across religions. I have many Hindu friends who would defend the 33 crore or so Gods we have (btw, I'm born to a Hindu family too).
    May be those tales / fantasies are TRUE – but the probability of them ALL being true is just too miniscule for any rational being to accept it. At the same time, I'm not a part of the 'science-army' either – to blindly believe in today's science. There is no guarantee that what science says today is going to remain 'factual' tomorrow – because, science evolves, it changes, it upgrades.
    .
    To me, the spiritual peak is realizing the ONE TRUTH, the Absolute truth that remains constant, unchanging across time, universe & dimensions. May be some have realized it & may be telepathy is actually true – and so is time-travel – but I remain an ignorant & questioning fool, and I choose to be that.
    .
    MN

  200. Continuum says:

    I have read the bible, and have come to conclusion that there is no book in the entire world as asinine as bible, with the exception of koran….

  201. Continuum says:

    Again, Ms. Grace, it ain't any love sacrifice. It is suicide, as your god sacrificed himself ONLY TO convince himself of forgiving others.

    Again, he SACRIFICED HIMSELF FOR THE ONLY REASON OF CONVINCING HIMSELF OF FORGIVING OTHERS.

    An omnipotent god has no need to convince others for him to forgive anyone, but himself.

    The reason clearly shows it is NO sacrifice at all, but indeed INSANITY ONLY.

    It can be sacrifice ONLY when some other entity has to be satisfied through this sacrifice, and the one sacrificing had no other choice but to sacrifice his life for others.

    Apparently you have no mind at all to follow such garbage religion.

  202. Continuum says:

    "He has to pay the perfect price or perfect penalty for all our sins because of He is a perfect Judge!"

    So you do agree that your diabolical god punishes himself in order to convince himself that he should forgive others.

    This is classic case of insanity…..Again what would you think of a judge who tortures himself to death in order to save a criminal relative of his? Normal people (probably not crustians) would get the judge admitted into a mental asylum.

  203. Continuum says:

    Really!! your allegedly loving Creator god is extremely kind, patient and merciful towards a complain king like me, because he created hell in the first place?

    I wonder what kindof loving god even thinks of creating hell in the first place??? :'(

    How about he did not create any hell at all? u crustians cannot see beyond two choices, either your insane dishonest god or hell…how about a third choice, neither your god nor his hell? after all your god is allegedly omnipotent, he can do allegedly anything. How difficult is it for him to create a third choice?

  204. Agracean says:

    Mr Arya Anand, I find it strange that many fools behaved exactly like you while they are still healthy and strong. They behaved as though they are smarter than God and they make fun and jeer at God and the Bible.

    However, the strange thing is that when all these fools faced a life threatening disease or hopeless situation, they suddenly have time for God and became mature individuals overnight! They begin to be really serious with God and start to read and study the Bible to understand what life is all about and what lies beyond the grave.

    So, Mr Arya Anand, I hope that you will be wise and seek the Way, the Truth and the Life for Jesus loves you. 🙂

  205. Arya Anand says:

    Ms.Agracean,

    The Bible like other scriptures contain not just one or two lies but a great number of lies and ridiculous, idiotic and nonsensical teachings.

    I do not bother about these lies because it is up to each individual to believe or reject these lies and I'm not interested and do not have time either to engage in discussion or argument with the believers like you who prefer blind faith in any nonsense to logical and rational thinking. It's only a waste of time and energy.

    Though all religions teach many lies particularly about God, they contain good teachings also and pose no threat to peace and survival of humankind except Islam.

  206. Agracean says:

    Well, Mr Continuum, as what I've repeated so many times in my earlier comments that God respects our choice and decision because He is a gentleman. You can either opt to receive His free unconditional love sacrifice through Jesus Christ for all your sins and receive eternal life or you can remain prideful and choose to personally bear all the penalty of your sins without God's help at all because we are accountable to our loving Creator God when we expire. 🙂

  207. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, if my loving Creator God made all human beings to be cyborg with no freedom of choice at all, people like you will complain that God is insane. If God gave us full human rights and the freedom of choice to accept His great love sacrifice for the penalty of your sins or not, people like you will complain again that God is a sadist.

    So, Mr Continuum, don't you think that my loving Creator God is extremely kind, patient and merciful towards a complain king like you?

  208. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, it's time for you to read and study the Bible and come to terms with the abolute truth and then, you'll automatically, humble yourself before my loving Creator God and acknowledge Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. 🙂

  209. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, with regard to your last question: "Since only your god has to decide whether to forgive or not, what need is there for him to commit suicide in order to convince himself?"

    Again, Mr Continuum, it's love sacrifice and not commit suicide! My earlier comments have pointed out the fact that your mind is finite and limited, that's why you cannot understand why a perfect God chose to condescend to become the perfect lamb which taketh away the sins of the world.

  210. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, with regard to your second question: 'answer if your god can forgive without his suicidal act?" I've to gently remind you to mind your words that this is not a suicidal act but a great love sacrifice.

    Mr Continuum, you must always bear in mind the fact that we are all imperfect human beings who will die without oxygen while my loving Creator God is totally different. He is our Creator and He is perfect in all His ways.

    In fact, in the beginning, human beings are perfect beings like my loving Creator God because God is perfect till Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God and sinned against Him and became imperfect beings. The consequences of their sin are physical and spiritual death which means eternal separation from God.

    However, my loving Creator God loves human beings so much that He is not willing that anyone should perish so in order to save us, He has to pay the perfect price or perfect penalty for all our sins because of He is a perfect Judge!

  211. Continuum says:

    Really, people choose to go to hell…LOL..I did NOT know that at all….Please explain how they choose to go to hell, unless you mean by NOT choosing your insane god they choose hell automatically in which case your god is the one sending them to hell? By the way was your god not aware of what satan would do when he created him and hell? How can a loving god create hell, satan and let him with oothers go to hell? Its like throwing your child into railroad in front of a train. Does not look like love to me…instead looks like insanity and sadism…

  212. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, please be informed that hell was not created for human beings at all. It was stated clearly in the Bible that hell was created for satan and his cohort of rebellious fallen angels.

    In fact, God never created any human beings to go to hell in the first place but many foolish human beings willingly choose to believe in all sorts of lies concorted by that father of lies and wilfully join those fallen angels in their great rebellion against my loving Creator God and go to hell instead! The sad truth is that my loving Creator God cannot stop all these rebellious fools from this insanity because they think that they are smarter than my loving Creator God and they don't need His advice, love or help at all.

  213. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, it seems like you are getting more and more emotional over this love issue which is good in the sense that it shows that you're not a braindead atheist or fool whose brain is out of order like some fools here. I'm really glad that you are interested to know more about this great love issue between my loving Creator God and fallen creatures like you and me and also, why hell exist, etc. But I notice that you are an impatient fool who is quick to criticize my loving Creator God without reading or studying the Bible or do any research about your doubts or queries. Maybe it's time for you to change your impatient attitude and manners and become a better person. 🙂

  214. Continuum says:

    Definitely I do NOT compare the so called "love" your suicidal insane god who sends people that do NOT believe in him to eternal hell to the love that a sane powerless human being can possess.

  215. Continuum says:

    Ms. Grace, the strange thing is believers like you will always have "blind faith" even when their belief is shown to be logically contradictory.

    The point you raised is pretty good in that it exposes the logical contradiction in believing in a god who is all-merciful and all-just. Both cannot go together as you said, as it is logically contradictory. In order to overcome the logical contradiction, you people introduced insanity into your god which makes things even more worse.

    I wonder why a "kind and patient" god would send souls to be barbecued in eternal hell just because the soul did not accept insane suicidal behavior of your god under the name of sacrifice and love.

    Ain't this another logical contradiction of you believers. But then contradiction or not, belief is blind for you chrutians.

  216. Agracean says:

    Mr Arya Anand, maybe you'll like to share with me all those 'lies' which you claimed that you have found after studying the entire Bible because there's a high possibility that what you consider to be lies might not be lies at all. 🙂

  217. Arya Anand says:

    I have studied the entire Bible and know of many lies therein.

  218. Agracean says:

    Mr Arya Anand, please note that you are not the only one who said that. Many dead liars and false prophets eg. Muhammad bin Abdullah, George Carlin, etc. also said that too. So, are you going to be another liar or false prophet? Why don't you do yourself a big favour and that is to read and study the Bible to ascertain the truth?

  219. Arya Anand says:

    The theory that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the mankind is just humbug and lie fabricated by one of the early churches of the Pauline Christianity.

  220. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, I've forgotten to inform you of the fact that you cannot compare the love of my loving Creator God towards a criminal with an earthly judge who has no relations with the criminal at all. That's the big difference!

  221. Agracean says:

    Mr Continuum, the strange thing with human beings is that they are very hard to please. If my loving Creator God implements the 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' type of law as per your suggestion, some human beings on this planet earth will cry foul and criticize my loving Creator God of being harsh and cruel, etc.

    On the other hand, if my loving Creator God chose to humble Himself and die once and for all, on our behalf for the penalty of all our sins which is purely done out of unconditional love for all human beings, some human beings on planet earth like you will also cry foul and criticize my loving Creator God of being insane and even 'teach' my loving Creator of what He should do and also, the 'right' way to repay sinners for their wicked deeds.

    So, Mr Continuum, don't you think that my loving Creator God is really kind and patient with human beings? 🙂

  222. Continuum says:

    The alleged just Creator God should also punish the perpetrator of crime, NOT kill himself in order to forgive the perpetrator of crime.

    Now imagine a situation where the "mere imperfect human being (the judge)" kills himself by voluntarily undergoing brutal torture in order to forgive the perpetrator of crime. Any sane person would call the judge insane and get him admitted in a mental asylum.

    Well Ms. Grace, if you expect sane behavior from a mere imperfect human being (the judge), what do you think that a perfect, Holy, righteous and just Creator God should behave then?

    Definitely NOT the insane behavior of killing himself…got it…capiche 🙂

  223. Agracean says:

    Hi Mr Continuum, let me ask you a super simple question to help you to grasp the truth. Let's imagine that you have a pretty girl friend and you love her so much that she became part of your life and you can't do without her in your life. But one fine day, this pretty girlfriend wanted to end this absurd relationship with you and you was so angry with this sudden turn of event that you kill her in a fit of anger.

    According to the court of justice on planet earth, the judge has to act righteously and just on behalf of the victim and based on the law and judiciary system of the country, you deserved the death sentence.

    Well, Mr Continuum, if this earthly judge who is but a mere imperfect human being can be so righteous and just, what do you think that a perfect, Holy, righteous and just Creator God should behave then?

  224. Continuum says:

    Every religion has claims from its converts and followers like these..

    How does this prove your religion is true? For all you know, devil(s) may be playing his tricks and/or these people suffered from hallucination.

    Let me ask you a simple question.

    Why would an allegedly omnipotent god need to sacrifice himself in order to save others?

    Who is this allegedly omnipotent god convincing through this gory sacrifice except himself?

    Why not cut to the chase and just forgive for only he has to decide whether to forgive or not.

    Are you suggesting your god is crazy and stupid to sacrifice himself and then get convinced by himself through his own sacrifice.

    Imagine a father sacrificing himself in order to forgive transgressions of his sons. This father will quickly end up in an asylum where your so called god belongs.

  225. John K says:

    Because in the meantime you miss out on a relationship with God. Even if you don't know his name, talk to him. He will hear you, and eventually you will learn how to hear him. Some have more dramatic experiences, but they are rare. But if it can happen to convert a Muslim, it can happen to you too:

    Afshins's Story – Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3VqbhVDtM

    Kamal's story – dramatized version
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccio1vE41M

    Same story – more intimate discussion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3PBzqSEbPw

  226. Arya Anand says:

    An idea that since we cannot discover reality during our mortal life, we should believe in hocus pocus of religions, is illogical and does not make sense to me. Why can't we be balanced and stay away both from belief and denial of things not yet discovered?

  227. John K says:

    Let me be the first 😉

    Evolution only works when life is established. The law of entropy calls for molecules to deconstruct rather than construct.

    Even that is limited. Any good horse trader can tell you that no matter how hard you try to breed for the best genetics, you can only push the envelope so far and the product is still a horse.

    You can cross with a donkey, but the resulting mule is sterile.

  228. Jonathan Harrell says:

    God is deluded with the theory of evolution. This is what makes evolution one of the best ideas and discoveries of all time. You will see people will criticize my comment below. 😀

  229. Prithvi says:

    Where was GOD when human life on planet earth did not evolve, this is a question which we all need to ask ourselves?

    We today have all the stages of the not just human development but the foetus development stages of animals also documented and explained with facts and data.

    In the end it is our choice whether we would like to believe whether the “sperm” is produced between the ribs and the backbone JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID IT or “testis” which is proven and backed by FACTUAL DATA.

    Best wishes,
    Prithvi

  230. Prithvi says:

    We humans have to power to think rationally and this is precisely what differentiates an animal and a man.
    The essence of the article is to start thinking rationally.
    This is because even when there was no scripture handed over to us to follow blindly without questioning,

    The sun was still at the centre of the solar system and was not gallivanting somewhere else
    The earth still took 365 days to complete a rotation around the sun
    The clouds did rain at that time also
    The oxygen was still available
    And humans did produce children then also

  231. Continuum says:

    Ali Sina,

    Perhaps you should write an article on why followers of religion or atheists APPARENTLY SEEM to be so sure of themselves.

    I presume you have an education in psychology. May be you should analyze from this point of view as to why certain followers of certain religion have a OCD to keep posting whatever they post again and again.

    I wrote "APPARENTLY SEEM to be so sure of themselves" with a reason. I doubt even these people are truly so sure of themselves. For example we do not find people constantly claiming "Earth is NOT flat" these days for it is common knowledge. If we are sure of something we do not have the need to constantly repeat it. If the other person claims "Earth is flat" we simply reject the person as nutty. We do NOT go behind him pestering him that "Earth is NOT flat".

    However followers of certain religion(s) here keep barking at the tree…May be they are NOT so sure of themselves, but keep barking to strengthen their "weak faith".

    Another idea for a topic, does "Free-will" exist in reality? I know "free-willy" (a movie) exists…LOL…

  232. Prithvi says:

    Dear Sir (Dr. Ali Sina):

    My heartiest congratulations to you for coming up with an excellent article yet again.
    I am a big fan and admirer of your work. I would like to come back to the forums more actively and would try and add value in which ever limited way I can.

  233. John K says:

    I think Dr. Sina is a fine thinker, but doubting until we discover reality means a decision will never be made during this mortal life, thus denying yourself of the spiritual benefits which are to be had from discovering God.

  234. Agracean says:

    Mr misguli, are you out of your mind or what? If you like to hug a tree, then go ahead and do so. Anyway, who cares? I don't know who is this Mr Khalil Gibran and I'm not interested in his lies. By the way, what has my beloved hero, Dr Ali Sina got to do with this dead moon-god? Please note that I will praise only my loving Creator God for this great hero, Dr Ali Sina's great love and sacrifice to help all those braindead zombies out of the Islamic sinkhole.

  235. Arya Anand says:

    It's a very good article which says in essence we should neither believe nor deny anything blindly just because we do not understand it at the present time. We must be balanced in our understanding of things and we should not be believers nor atheists but continue to doubt things until we discover reality.

  236. John K says:

    Did you give birth to yourself? Are you smart enough to build a human? No scientist has ever been able to create life. They are only able to play with existing life material.

  237. misguli says:

    If my parents gave birth to me IT IS NOT A MIRACLE IS IT.
    GO HUG A TREE INSTEAD – for without a tree you could not breathe oxygen
    NOW: Khalil Gibran once said: Your children are NOT your children
    They come through you but not FROM you
    They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for ITSELF.
    got it?
    NOW GO PRAISE ALLAH FOR GIVING US, Ali Sina

  238. Agracean says:

    Mr Anas Siddiqui, where in the world did I failed in high school? Why do you have to lie? By the way, what's wrong with my admiration of the miracle of life which commeth from my loving Creator God? Don't you know the fact that my loving Creator God is the CEO of biology or science?

  239. Anas Siddiqui says:

    That's a biology, not miracle. just because you failed in high school doesn't mean everything you see is a miracle. xD

  240. John K says:

    Good article. I once heard the Dean of the Chemistry Dept give a speech in which he said that the thing about knowledge is that the more you learn, the more you become aware of how much you don't know.

    He said it is like starting out on a hike up a mountain. From the base, the curvature of the slope hides the size of the mountain from view, but as you start to climb higher, you can see more of the mass of the mountain and realize how much farther you really have to go.

  241. Agracean says:

    Have you also forgotten the fact that you were once an ignorant and helpless babe who depends solely on your beloved parents' unconditional love, care and support for daily survival in this troublesome planet earth? They love you very much and you love them very much too, without any doubts at all.

    However, your thinking patterns and attitude started to change towards them due to all kinds of wordly influences you've gained as you grew. You've became so sophisticated and complicated to the point that you refused to acknowledge them as your parents who gave birth to you. Instead, you chose to believe in a scientist who said that your parents did not make love on that beautiful night and your mother did not conceive you at all and your birth was hocus pocus which is based on his belief that there's no such thing as a Creator God Who created this marvellous Universe but the principle behind every creation!

  242. Agracean says:

    Dear rationalist and atheist hero, Dr Ali Sina

    Maybe you've forgotten the fact that once upon a time, you were swimming and kicking happily inside your mother's womb and it's really a great miracle that you survive healthily inside that amniotic fluid bag without having the need to breathe in air at all! Then, when you were born into this troublesome world, another great miracle happened and that is when you knew that you have to breathe like I do! How can you be ignorant of all these great miracles?

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