Proof of Soul: Why Science is Not the Ultimate Authority
Hello Mr. Sina,
I’m an Agnostic Atheist Ex-Muslim. I’ve begun reading your posts on NDE, God and the Afterlife. They make a lot of sense to me and I think I may become a theist but I have a few questions for you before I do.
1. If I have a soul how does that fit in with evolution?
2. How can neurological disorders fit in with souls?
3. If there are souls, what is the purpose of the brain?
4. You make many large assumptions about God (eg. God is love); where is your evidence for these assumptions?
5. If our purpose is to experience existence why are there so many other planets out there? What about planets with no life, what is their purpose?
6. Are there other souls on those planets?
I love your concept of God but I am a skeptic. I need to ask these questions before I change my beliefs. I truly want to believe but before I do I must clear all my doubts.
Thank You,
– InsanelyUnoriginal
Before answering your questions I must make it clear that my goal is not to change anyone’s beliefs. My own thoughts are constantly evolving. (That is the presumptuous way of saying changing.) Each person must find his or her own light. My only objective in writing is to eradicate Islam, not because it is a lie. There are countless spurious beliefs out there and I don’t give a damn. Islam must be eradicated because it is the epitome of everything that is evil.
However, I answer questions that are not related to Islam if I believe them to be important. Your questions are important. It is not that I have answers, but by sharing my thoughts on them maybe it will encourage others to think critically at them.
Let us first cut this elephant into bite size morsels. First we have to make sure whether consciousness survives the death of the body. If it doesn’t the visible world is all there is and no point to assume God exists. Everything is product of chance. That is what today’s science says.
However, science is not the ultimate authority. The ultimate authority is observation. Any time science and observation clash, science must give in if it wants to remain science. When science is not supported by observation it is philosophy and when it contradicts it, it is fanaticism.
Take the examples of heliocentricity or evolution. In each case science had to give in to observation, albeit reluctantly and grudgingly, and reinvent itself in order to remain relevant.
Another example is the quantum world. It goes against our commonsense and everything we know about reality. When we observed the subatomic universe for the first time, we could not believe it or make sense of it. It could not be explained with our tested and proven Newtonian science. But we could not deny it either. It was right in front of our eyes. We had to devise an entirely new science for it.
What about reason? Is reason the ultimate authority? Not even reason! False ideas are often upheld by fallacious reasoning. Observation is the ultimate authority, not science and not reason.
Newtonian science is based on materialism. To avoid confusion, let us first agree on the definition of words we use. My definition of matter is anything that is composed of atom. Particles are not matter; they are energy. Matter and energy are interchangeable, like water and ice, but they are not the same. They have different properties.
Materialistic science cannot make sense of the behavior of particles. Yet we don’t deny the phenomenon. Why? Because it is observable!
Can the independence of consciousness from brain be observed? If yes, we should not be concerned about science even if it cannot make sense of it. If atomic (materialistic) science is mute about subatomic world, why should we expect it to have any say in regards to consciousness? When something is observable and not explainable by science, the latter should simply get out of the way. Observation rules!
Now, is there any observational evidence that consciousness exists independent from brain? Yes, many! According to materialistic science, consciousness is a function of the brain. Therefore, when brain stops, consciousness must cease to exist. But we have evidence that it doesn’t.
Since 1960s doctors have been able to resuscitate patients that are clinically dead. A great number of these people (one in every six) awaken with memories of leaving their bodies, hovering over the heads of the doctors operating on them, visiting other rooms in the hospital and reporting accurately what they heard and saw vividly when they were supposed to be unconscious and dead.
These claims are reported by people of all ages and cultures. They number in millions. If they were only a few, we could ignore them. We can ignore the reports of people claiming to have seen a Bigfoot. We can’t categorically deny the existence of this humanoid, but since there are only a few hundred reports, it is possible that most of them are honest mistakes and some are hoaxes. We can’t do that with NDE because they are millions of such reports.
(Not surprisingly, there are few claims of near death experience by Muslims. The reason is that Muhammad did not believe that soul survives the death of the body. He did not speak of soul at all. According to his eschatology, the dead remains in the grave until the Day of Resurrection when Israfil blows his horn and they will rise in their physical body to receive their judgment. Then the believers will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell. Muhammad will be the first to enter paradise. NDE proves Islam is false. Now I don’t think that Muslims don’t have NDE. They just don’t report them, because, a) it shows Islam is false, and b) their experience may not be quite pleasant and heavenly. The few videos of Muslims claiming NDE are about those who say they saw Jesus and upon their awakening converted to Christianity.)
To refute out of body experience, materialists engage in all sorts of logical fallacies. One argument they present is that the brain of the unconscious is still capable of functioning. This claim is patently false. Instruments attached to the patient show their brain has zero activity. Are we supposed to believe that the patient with open heart surgery can see with close eyes and hear perfectly, even when their ears are plugged, but not feel any pain?
They also claim that since tests on astronauts undergoing gravities much greater than 1G report OBE when their brain is deprived of oxygen, we should then conclude that the OBE is a hallucination that happens when brain is deprived of oxygen. This is an absurd argument. To have a hallucination the neo-cortex has to be active. Without oxygen the neo-cortex is the first to stop working. How can a flat-lined brain that has no activity produce vivid and detailed coherent experiences? This is not science. It is hocus pocus. The materialists use scientific vocabulary but talk nonsense.
The argument is so unconvincing that even they can see it is absurd. So they argue that OBE is not generated when the brain is flat lined, but during the recovery, which the patient erroneously thinks happened during the death. This argument is also false. Some NDEs last only seconds and in this short time the person reports seeing things that require a book to describe. Nathalie Sudman was a civilian contractor in Iraq when her car was blown up by a roadside bomb in 2006. Her guard was killed, but she was injured and went out of her body for only three seconds. She wrote a book about it. In three seconds she had an experience that would generally take weeks to accumulate. Time in the other world is not the same as it is here. Time and space are properties of matter. Where there is no matter, there is no time. Sudman did not have an unconscious recovery period. She had a amazing experience in just 3 seconds. I too had a glimpse of the other world some 25 years ago. It lasted 3 or 4 seconds, but the information I downloaded in that short time was huge. I did not have a NDE. I was just taking a shower and fully awake, just distracted and relaxed.
However you look at it, the arguments presented by materialists to explain away the phenomenon of NDE are fallacious. The irrefutable evidence that OBE is real is the fact that some of these ND experiencers accurately report events that took place, not just in the operation room, where they were lying with flat-lined brain, but also outside it, confirmed by others. This evidence closes the case. There is nothing else to discuss. Out of body experience is real and is proven by the fact that the people experiencing it come back with verifiable information that they could not have in any other way other than through an OBE. Anyone who denies the independence of consciousness from brain has either not seen the mountain of evidences that is readily available on YouTube or they do not want to see them because they are willfully ignorant. Materialists love to give themselves pompous attributes such as being skeptic when they are fanatical believers in materialism. A skeptic is one who can question his own belief, otherwise anyone is skeptic. Everyone doubts the validity of others’ beliefs.
***
Now, back to your questions! So far I spoke with certainty because facts are clear. From here on I am no longer certain. The following are just my opinions.
1. If I have a soul how does that fit in with evolution?
Think of the body as the hardware and the soul, as the software. If your computer gets damaged, it won’t work. But the software is not affected. You can install that software in another computer and run the same application. The software is independent from the hardware.
2. How can neurological disorders fit in with souls?
With our software/hardware example, we can answer this question too. If there is a defect in your CPU, sound card, RAM, keyboard or any component of your PC, it works defectively. Hardware damage does not affect the software.
3. If there are souls, what is the purpose of the brain?
The above example answers this question too. You need a hardware to make your software work.
4. You make many large assumptions about God (e.g. God is love); where is your evidence for these assumptions?
I am merely reporting what the ND experiencers say. Many of them claim having met God and were bathed in a light that was pure and unconditional love. They say they never experienced such love in their life on earth. It also makes more sense for God to be love than a sadist despot like Allah.
5- If our purpose is to experience existence why are there so many other planets out there? What about planets with no life, what is their purpose?
The universe and life are products of evolution through natural selection. Most planets are inhabitable because they happen to be in the wrong place, either too close or to near to their sun and maybe too gaseous or toxic for life to evolve. No one put Earth in the Goldilocks’ zone. It just happened to have everything needed for life to evolve. But the Darwinian Theory is only half of the story. There is more to evolution than the natural selection of the fittest. I will write about that at another time. However, the universe runs by very precise laws and constants. These laws are so fine-tuned that they could not have come to exist on their own. For example, the cosmological constant is so precise that chance does not explain it. The value of the cosmological constant, λ, is on the order of 10−122. (That is10 to the power of -122.) This value is so astronomically small that chance has to be ruled out. When combined with the fine tuning of other laws and constants it becomes clear that the laws of physics require an intelligent being.
Let us try to make some sense of this number. There are roughly 1080 atoms (10 to the power of 80) in the observable universe. (This is an estimate. The actual number could be 100 times more or 100 times less.) The observable universe is 92 billion light years across and contains hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars and zillions of planets and gazillion gasses. Let us say someone hides a marked atom somewhere in this universe and asks you to pick one atom randomly and if it happens to be that marked atom, you win a prize. What is the likelihood that you may stumble upon that particular atom by chance? It is in the order of 10-80 (10 to the power of -80.) That is 1 over a number with 80 zeros in front of it. the likelihood of getting the value of cosmological constant right is in the order of 10-122 (10 to the power of -122). It has 42 zeros more. It means the atom you are supposed to find by accident is somewhere in 1042 universes, each as big as this one we are living in. You need to find that marked atom by chance, and it could be in any of trillion trillion trillion million universes. Good luck.
Before you start, you might be interested to know that in one drop of water there are 2000 billion billion atoms of oxygen and 4000 billion billion atoms of hydrogen. Twenty drops is one gram of water.
And this is just the likelihood of getting the cosmological constant right. There are about three dozens of such constants in physics. For this universe to come to exist by chance, the value of all those constants must be precisely set right. If you still think that the universe could have been created by accident, you obviously still don’t understand the meaning of 10-122 . Please read the above two paragraphs more slowly. These numbers are beyond our human experience and comprehension.
Now who is more superstitious? Those who think an intelligent being devised the laws of physics or those who believe everything came to exist by accident? Please do not assume that the above argument supports intelligent design. Intelligent design is a fallacy.
6- Are there other souls on other planets?
Anywhere there is life there is consciousness. The inhabitants of those habitable planets are not different from us. They are us. We have been around as long as God has been around, i.e. forever. We existed before the Earth was formed. We existed before the universe was created. We have been in many planets, looking very different in body, but with the same thoughts and awareness that we have now. The aliens are us. We are all spirit, aliens in this physical world. This could be your 80th reincarnation on Earth or your first. The Earth is one of infinite planets where we go to experience the material world.
Our soul can be in multiple places at the same time (see The Trinity for Dummies). It is like installing the same software on multiple computers. We are living simultaneously in many planets and even on earth in multiple bodies. There is no past and no future in the spirit world. Time does not exist where matter does not exist. Everything is present and present is eternity. So we are living all our infinite physical experiences simultaneously while having never left the heaven at all. The universe is a hologram. You and I are not here. We are operating our bodies by remote from a different dimension outside the perimeter of space-time quantum.
If you think that is strange, it is. All we have to do is look into the quantum universe to have an idea of a world that is not bound by time and space. Everything I said about consciousness can be observed in the quantum universe. The study of the properties of particles, which are balls of energy, can give us an idea of the properties of the spiritual world. Consciousness is structured energy. It cannot be explained with Newtonian physics, but it can be understood through quantum physics. Quantum physics is the science of the spiritual world.
Let me make an example. Let us say Martian scientists send a probe to the Earth that scoops up a bucket of water from a sea and take it back home. They then put the water under the microscope and find it is pullulating with life. They find planktons and all sorts of aquatic tiny creatures. They are surprised to find out that these creatures float. There are no lakes and oceans on Mars. So our little green neighbors conclude that these creatures float because they are tiny. But they are wrong. Any creature, whether small or big floats in water.
Our scientists observe that particles, pop in and out of space and time and conclude this must be the property of particles. They are making the same mistake that Martian scientists make. Everything, in an environment that is not bound by time and space, behaves in the same way that particles behave. So if particles can be in two places at the same time, consciousness can also be in two places at the same time. If particles can be entangled through large spaces, souls can do the same. Quantum physics does not give us information about just particles, but everything that is not made of matter, including the spiritual world.
7- Why there is so much suffering in the world?
This is a question someone asked me on Twitter. I will answer it here.
Suffering is needed to complete our physical experience. We come to this material world for a reason. In the spiritual world, everything is bliss. But there are things we need to learn or experience that can only be attained by immersing ourselves in the physical world, such as courage. To develop courage we must face fear and overcome it. Without fear courage is meaningless. There is no fear in heaven because there is no loss, injury or death in heaven. Consciousness is imperishable. I am sure everyone knows about the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of information. Consciousness is information in the form of structured energy. It cannot perish. We cannot believe in science when it suits us and ignore it when it doesn’t. According to the law of conservation of information consciousness cannot be destroyed.
In this world we are given a perishable body and an instinct to preserve it. Because our body is mortal we experience fear. By defying fear we experience courage. Life is intended to be difficult and we choose the level of difficulty we would like to face here before coming. Let us say you want to play chess against a computer. If you think you are a good player, you set the level of difficulty higher. We did not come to this world to have fun. There is plenty of fun where we came from. We came here to face the challenges of life and win the game despite its hardships. You feel the exhilaration of victory when you go back home.
Home is where we came from. That is where we live. We have never left home. We are not here. This universe is a hologram. Our focus is here temporarily. How many times you were so focused on a thought or a movie that you had forgotten where you are? Another good example is when you sleep. Your body is in your bed while your mind is completely oblivious of where you are and is wandering somewhere else. This is perhaps a very good example. This world is only a dream. It seems so real, but when we wake up from this dream, it suddenly becomes clear we were just dreaming. Some dreams are pleasant and some are not. When we wake up, neither one matters.
If we could shift our focus to where we came from, we can experience heaven even when we are still in our physical bodies. This much I can say with some degree of certainty because it happened to me. I just can’t repeat the experience.
There is suffering in this world. All creatures suffer. The suffering seems real. But once we shift our focus back to the spirit world this world seems like a game, and its suffering is what makes it exciting and challenging.
Dr. Sina,
Science is the expressed form of logic, logic is the expression of consciousness. Thus science is definitely the ultimate authority, till the change arrives as new, which we didn’t knew until apprehended.
Therefore, the heading is expected to be ” Why PRESENT science is not the ultimate authority.”
Thank you for this beautiful insight.
To Phoenix,
I was alluding those bad comments as yours.I made a mistake.Sorry.
We’re on the same page.
Frankie.
I said:You’re implying the conclusions drawn from the premises do not follow.Show us why it’s illogical//
You responded with:Illogical also mean “unsound reasoning”//
How is my statement different to that?
===
Also you need to learn the difference between formal/informal fallacies//
Where and when did I confuse two?
===
Such testimony by itself is not of much use… and these often follow set patterns as people have the habit of making up/experiencing remarkably similar things. Asking people over the internet and accepting such testimony without much scrutiny is obviously illogical//
Who said testimony alone is sufficient evidence?The NDE researchers who conducted these case studies have presented more than just anecdotes.See here
“One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest. Dr Parnia concluded: “This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with ‘real’ events when the heart isn’t beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted.Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events“.
Frankie what’s wrong with you? Those are Ayattollahowmany’s words,not mine.Read his post below,then read my response to him.
I have no objection to your beliefs BUT using them to convince others is immoral.
Me: I didn’t misquoted you.If our Beliefs did not get objection by you,so how to not share it with others,for we want the best out of everyone?
Something is Good for us,we have the Noble souls,to want you to be bless also.That is our callings.It is only moral,never immoral.
Unless our beliefs were evil and misguided.
Keeping an eye on Phoenix.
– –
“You’re implying the conclusions drawn from the premises do not follow.Show us why it’s illogical.”
Illogical also mean “unsound reasoning”.
Also you need to learn the difference between formal/informal fallacies.
Search Results
“An informal fallacy is an argument whose stated premises may fail to adequately support its proposed conclusion. The problem with an informal fallacy often stems from reasoning that renders the conclusion unpersuasive. In contrast to a formal fallacy of deduction, the error is not a flaw in logic.”
Such testimony by itself is not of much use… and these often follow set patterns as people have the habit of making up/experiencing remarkably similar things. Asking people over the internet and accepting such testimony without much scrutiny is obviously illogical.
Even you have the brains to work that one out.
There are Thousands of cases/studies by Dr Ian Stevenson about the validity of reincarnation. Sir Roger Penrose the famous mathematical physicist also proposes some kind of mechanism for this to be possible, definitely worth a read. There is lots of evidence from many Doctors/Scientists/Philosophers and laypeople alike.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vIDES6VWl1MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ian+stevenson&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HodyPRa7n0wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ian+stevenson&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VDifR2RT9AkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ian+stevenson&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lZgPBE5q2TAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ian+stevenson&cd=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR
http://paranormal.about.com/cs/reincarnation/a/aa081103.htm
Thanks.
Frankie
Read properly,you’ve not quoted me.
Phonix: I have no objection to your beliefs BUT using them to convince others is immoral.
Me: We have found the truths,and our Belief defined us,and it can be only moral,only proper and righteous to share it to others.
If you have no objections on our Faith,you shouldn;t have any objections also in what we do,as we share it to others.Otherwise you proved yourself phony.
How on earth that Eye-witness is not reliable?Do you mean anything you witness with your own eyes,are unreliable,and as for us,we are reliable?
Countless of experiments had shown we relied on eye-witness,and Courts need eye witness to car- acidents and many matters.
Ayattollahowmany says:Your argument that ‘evidence’ provided by those who experience NDE is acceptable proof is illogical.//
You’re implying the conclusions drawn from the premises do not follow.Show us why it’s illogical.
Many experiments have shown even eye-witness testimony is highly unreliable- and this is from people who are fully conscious and without physical or neurological impairment.//
This seems to be an appeal at a personal and subjective sliding scale of plausibility,where evidence is rejected on the basis of a priori assumptions.Our courts rely on witness testimony,which is a form of anecdotal evidence,so do feedback systems,surveys and recommendations.Clearly,there must be some validity to such methods since they are utilized by corporations and our legal systems,thus falsifying your claim of “eye-witness testimony is highly unreliable”
I have no objection to your beliefs BUT using them to convince others is immoral. Somewhat akin to Islamic conditioning??//
You have failed to give reasons why belief in NDEs are immoral,merely stating it is,does not make it so.What are your actual objections and what evidence do you have that proves it is immoral?
Plaudits to you on your implacable opposition to Islam.
However, I take issue with your promotion of NDE.
Your argument that ‘evidence’ provided by those who experience NDE is acceptable proof is illogical.
Many experiments have shown even eye-witness testimony is highly unreliable- and this is from people who are fully conscious and without physical or neurological impairment.
I have no objection to your beliefs BUT using them to convince others is immoral. Somewhat akin to Islamic conditioning??
Ali Sina is responsible for my apostasy, and I have been reading him since decade!!I visit this site, after several years and I am surprised that Ali has exact the same thoughts as mine!! This is my several years of research on OOBE,NDE,LIFE AFTER DEATH,QUANTUM PHYSICS,CONCIOUNESS,MIND OVER MATTER AND SO ON AND ON AND ON!! In above article his logical explanation of unexplained phenomena is extraordinary!! I am just overwhelmed by the way he put words together to explain the difference between science and observation!! Keep it up Ali, I am a big fan of yours!!
1. If I have a soul how does that fit in with evolution?
Reply: Evolutions was false,designed to weaken the truths about God,the Creator.
Jesus said you have a soul/spirit,and that is eternal.No other options available,either what He said is true,and you accept that by Faith,or you don’t.
Though there were solid reasons to believe there is a soul,but one had to trust someone first.I recommend you to trust what Jesus said.
2. How can neurological disorders fit in with souls?
Me: A human soul and Brains are two entities,separate from each other.
The Consciousness of a person is in the spirit/soul.Our human minds is a mystery.There is no way to describe or understand what a Mind is,at this side of natural world.Its spiritual.
3. If there are souls, what is the purpose of the brain?
Me: Human spirit use the Brain as the material,the channel to deduce and think.
Brain is a physical thing.Human spirit is non-material.
4. You make many large assumptions about God (eg. God is love); where is your evidence for these assumptions?
Me: God caused men to write down His Teachings and talks about His love,in the Bible.The Bible is evidences.On top of that God cause man to feel the warmth of His love,and by His deeds,the death of Jesus for our sins,is an act of love,not assumptions,for God so lobed the world that He sent Jesus to us,something that can be seen,understood,and events recorded down for our knowledge
Jesus said…if you don;t believe I am the Saviour,at least believe in te works I do.His works is evidence,and He was risen,so He can works,and be seen and felt.
Just like Billy Graham had seen the Lord Jesus face to Face;Salvation Army General William Booth and Kirsten Power,an ex-atheist had see Jesus in Taiwan.
All these are witnesses;believe them or not,its up to you.Anyway,its your Eternity at stakes.
5. If our purpose is to experience existence why are there so many other planets out there? What about planets with no life, what is their purpose?
Me: The Bible had answers to these queries.
God was the Creator.It was understood that other planets support the existence of this earth.Like the Sun,like the Moon,and the Stars.
6. Are there other souls on those planets?
In Heavens,there exists Angels,and God;s Throne is there.Our nearby planets doesn’t seem to have human life,or perhaps demons roam there.
Do not fall into the same mistake our ancestors did. When our ancestor saw lightning strike. They did not understand how electricity works. It doesn't fit their mind, so they assumed there must be God of Thunder. Now we know how lightning and thunder is made. No more God of Thunder.
We can't explain many natural phenomenon such as soul, afterlife, near dead experience, quantum physics, etc… I just want to remind: do not make the same mistake our ancestor did.
Jesus
The link : http://www.spiritualquest.co.in/science/vedic-science/na...
Jesus/Indian protestant christian
One more proof to refute your argument . You told me that you are learning artificial intelligence.NASA has discovered that Sanskrit , the oldest language spiritual language is the only unambiguous spoken language on the planet. NASA has decided 1) to use Sanskrit as computer language 2) to echo Sanskrit language in the space. http://www.spiritualquest.co.in/science/vedic_science/na...
Sanskrit language can help you to learn artificial intelligence rather than the language in which Bible is written.
Mmmm mmmm
Lol!!Some Muslim man might have offered him his six year old daughter for fornication ,so cool down.This world is filled with pedophiles,Islam is nice sanctuary for such people,i don't find any surprise in him embracing Islam :*
Why a Former Buddhist Christian accepted Islam? TheDeenShow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvCU-4TE-ec
I think that Ali will laugh at your above comment because those questions are exactly the same as compared to what I've been trying to explain to him all these long, long years. It's really tiring to repeat all those long stories again here but let me give you a clue to help you on your way to enlightenment. You have to first humbly admit the fact that your brain has it's limitations and eternity is beyond what your mind can perceive.
ihateislam
You Christians believe in Creationist God i.e. a PERFECT God creates the humanity, life and the universe.
1] Why does a PERFECT God need to create the universe ?
2] If God's motive is love and kindness then why there is suffering and misery in the universe ?
3] Don't you think that a loving and kind God ought to create only happy creatures , not an IMPERFECT universe ?
Use your brain and find answers of these questions.
christian idiot massacre of sikhs was political . but witch hunt was religious persecution. you 3rd world christians are still killing each other what happened in rwanda? scumbag christian.
again like a christian bullshitter you exposed yourself. can you hit employees with rod? don't bluff us you christian idiot . insubordination means only loss of job not hitting them with rod. scoundrel liar
again you are talking like a militant christian scum . India didn't have any problem of poverty before you christian scums colonized it. and also muslim scums ruined it.
why do you lie ? in dead man cannibalism religion of islam . slavery is explicitly present . to enslave infedels.
shame on you christies to still enslave black people.
do you know christian casteism of south america?
“Out of body experience is real and is proven by the fact that the people experiencing it come back with verifiable information that they could not have in any other way other than through an OBE.”
Do you have an experiment in mind designed to support this claim?
I’ve heard of experiments where a subject is told to identify an object placed on top of a bookshelf, a position only visible by a bird’s-eye-view of the room. We now know how to clinically induce NDE also.
More info: http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming…
How can a sane person worship a cow unless she is insane. So, you must be insane.
"For eg. which principle tells us that your no.2 is acceptable?" The "principle" of knowledge, if you know something then you know it and if you don't then you don't (and you also know that you don't know.) No "validation" is necessary (for obvious reasons).
"This should settle it once and for all and don't forget to state your principles." My principle is knowledge itself.
"Notice the equivocation fallacy he uses in this statement:" I was saying this question of how do you know your reasoning (or whatever it might be) is true, is meaningless because either you know something or you don't.
"My counter example:I have never come across a logician whose able to systematically assess an argument unconsciously." I thought you said before even a layman can intuitively know whether an argument is wrong or not?
"Although this contradicts your intial statements that knowledge can only be known via logic,your presupposition still remains flawed." I am speaking about the knowledge itself, the knowledge itself does not need any "validation" for the very good reason that we already know it.
Aryan
//Because there is the RAY of hope for conversion(it is like giving a loaf of bread to a hungry dog,so the dog can be made one's subordinate). //
You are right. I would like to add one more point that these christian charities are funded by Businessmen and Investors. Their real intention is to make the Indian Govt. increase the percentage of Foreign Direct Investment in Indian Economy.
ihateislam
Which country of Africa you are from ?
ihateislam
//It remains just as I said, babbling.//
Thanks for exposing your ignorance of Quantum Physics
.// I have no time for frivolities. What you call unanswered questions are issues I have addressed before.//
I think everyone here understand English and can conclude that you haven't answered my questions and you are unsuccessful. You are a bad loser.
ihateislam
//Jainism was, for a long time, the state religion in Indian kingdoms and widely adopted in the Indian subcontinent.//
For your kind information I would like to tell you that I belong to Jainism. So you can't deceive me by saying that Jainism was the state religion and widely adopted in Indian sub-continent. I know the historical facts of India.
But I am interested to know what do you know about Jainism and it's philosophy ?
@ihateislam
Again i beg pardon for intruding.
/That is why Christian based charities are the first to respond massively to disasters./
Because there is the RAY of hope for conversion(it is like giving a loaf of bread to a hungry dog,so the dog can be made one's subordinate).
/Mother Teresa would live Europe to live in the slums of Calcutta, in keeping with that teaching./
If she had not involved in conversion of poor people –her charity works could have become the most remarkable one in the history of humanity.
There is another woman saint,her charity works surpasses that of Mother Teressa.Not only this woman is humanist but also a great enlightened saint . Mother Teressa helped lepers ,but this woman saint had licked the puss of a leper and cured him.The world knows her as 'Hugging Saint' or simply "Amma" .She had performed countless miracles.Her charity has spread whole of the world including Africa.I request you to watch her videos here on this net (Just Google Mata Amritanandmai Amma). However this woman saint is not involved in conversion.
/The Jews do not feel like apologizing for killing Jesus just as the hindus have not apologized for what they did and are still doing to the Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and others/
I am reminded of a case in Jesus' life. Most probably it is simply mythology. Not most probably — it is certainly mythology.
Jesus brings Lazarus back from death. Now, the question is: is Lazarus going to live forever? He will die again — so Jesus has given him two deaths instead of one. The arithmetic is absolutely clear. He will suffer poverty, and one day he will die again.
But I don't think this happened, because if it were true, why could Jesus not perform any miracle on the cross?
On the cross he became angry with God. He shouted, "Have you forsaken me?" He felt utterly helpless. This man who used to raise the dead, who used to walk on water, could not fly with the cross? It is absolutely inconsistent. With the man's miracles, he could not manage any miracle on the cross?
And that was the place where he was expected … Then the Jews would have accepted him as their last prophet. He was put on the cross as a test, that "If you are really the son of God, now let us see. If you really walk on water, if you really raise the dead to life again, then we will put you on the cross and see what miracles you can do, or God can do on your behalf."
Nothing happened. He shouted at the clouds; there was no God. But what is the need of God if a man walks on water, feeds people — thousands of people — with one loaf of bread, wakes up the dead? There was no need to call for God. He could have flown away with the cross, and that would have proved absolutely without doubt to the Jews that he was their last prophet, he was the only begotten son of God. His helplessness on the cross shows that all the stories of miracles are simply invented — because no contemporary source even mentions Jesus' name.
Can you think that a man who walks on water, a man who raises dead people back to life, a man who restores the eyes of the blind, the limbs of the crippled just by his touch, was not able even to carry the cross up the hill? Three times he fell — the cross was too heavy — and three times they gave him a good beating to get up again and carry the cross. And this is the prophet, the only begotten son of God!
With Jesus the idea of service has come into existence: serve the poor. But why? In fact, logically, he said, "Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the kingdom of God." If that is true, make more people poor. The rich people cannot enter into paradise. A camel can pass through the eye of a needle, but a rich man cannot enter into the gate of paradise. If that is the case, why serve the poor? If anybody needs service, it is the rich. Steal their money, make them poor, so they can inherit the kingdom of God.
Poverty is perfectly right, according to Jesus' own statements. It is good to be poor — according to Jesus — it is great to be poor.
I hate poverty! And I hate Jesus for making such statements, consoling the poor and protecting the rich. It seems that Jesus is on the side of the poor … and what help has he given to the poor? And what help has Christianity given to the poor?
Even in Christian countries there is immense poverty. Even in the richest country, America, there are three million people on the streets; in the cold winter they are dying. What are the Christians doing for those people? And they are Christians, but nobody is interested in them. They are already Christians, they will inherit the kingdom of God..
Buddha was given rightful place in Hinduism as the 10th incarnation of God .
Supriya,
It remains just as I said, babbling.
Supriya,
"SO YOUR ANCESTORS WERE ALSO INVOLVED IN SLAVERY". That despicable institution was/is not restricted to any one culture. While some people did away with it hundreds of year ago, others are still clinging tenaciously to it. There is modern day slavery in the form of the caste system which undoubtedly makes you very proud.
I have no time for frivolities. What you call unanswered questions are issues I have addressed before. It is not my fault if you fail to see or understand them. That tells who the loser is.
ihateislam
//How does that change the fact that Muller had already written on the subject long before Schrodinger? //
It means Muller also talked about the things which already existed in Hinduism. Thanks for telling me that another scientist's( J. Muller) discovery resembles Vedanta.
Aryan,
The Greeks you mentioned were not Christians but it was Christians who translated their works from Greek which latter scientists would benefit from. You have tried desperately to divorce Christianity from modern science by refusing to acknowledge that modern science arose among avowedly Christian clerics, theologians, monks and professors of universities and monasteries. They include people like Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Kepler, Descartes, Pascal, Newton( who became extremely religious in his old age and devoted the rest of his life to the study of religion), Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Planck etc. I do not know how many of them derived their knowledge from the vedas. Just assuming, but without conceding, that the vedas contain elements of science, how is that beneficial if not put to practical use?
The worst persecutor of the Jews used a hindu symbol as his insignia of power. The Jews do not feel like apologizing for killing Jesus just as the hindus have not apologized for what they did and are still doing to the Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and others.
As the muhammadans subjugated the hindus, so did the aryan hindus do to the original inhabitants of India.
ihateislam
//If he was so enamored by the vedas, would you mind asking him why he did not convert to cow worship?//
Hinduism has nothing to do with CONVERSION.Westerners visit India to understand Indian philosophies and they are not told to convert to Hinduism. But christian missionaries are doing their best to convert people. e.g. These missionaries were send to Africa to convert people using various tricks.
@ihateislam
I am extremely sorry to interfere,with your permission,i would like to clear out some of the misconception exist about Hinduism in many quarters of world,especially people of Semitic religions.
1. Hinduism is not a religion, it is a way of life.
2. Hindu the name came from the word Sindu,the river ,The Persian and Greeks used to call the people who have inhabited the banks of Sindu river.
3.Hinduism do not support conditioned life,all are accommodated in its fold.There is wide scope for reformation.Therefore many religions formed within Hinduism,yet they hold common name Hinduism.
4. A person who is believing in one God is a Hindu.A person believing in many God is a Hindu.A person believe a God in the form is Hindu ,a God in formless is also a Hindu.A person who do not believe in God (Atheist) or an Agnostic is also a Hindu.
5.There is no definite way of Salutations you can salute/pray in whatever manner one wish.
6. The concept of conversion is an alien concept in Hinduism.It is not necessary that one should convert to become Hindu.The person who fulfill the above said criteria is Hindu.
7.Hinduism think beyond Hell and Heaven–the state of merging with that infinite existence forever.
8.There is definite way in Hinduism to reach Enlightenment.Enlightenment is not the monopoly of any single person.
So i think Schrodinger too is a Hindu ,if he had appreciations for Vedas
ihateislam
//People have interest in things for various reasons//
Quantum Physicists have interest in Hinduism because they find answers of their scientific questions in Upanishad, Vedas etc. Christianity can't answer their questions because the founder of christianity didnt know the Truth.
ihateislam
Quantum Physics has disproved Christianity.
Supriya,
Jainism was, for a long time, the state religion in Indian kingdoms and widely adopted in the Indian subcontinent. Jainism declined from the 8th century and the main factor was the success of hindu reform movements. It was because the cow worshipers thought of being better than the others that was why they drove Jainism to near extinction. Jesus taught that we have to love our neighbors as ourselves and be each other's keeper. That is why Christian based charities are the first to respond massively to disasters. Mother Teresa would live Europe to live in the slums of Calcutta, in keeping with that teaching. Name one hindu charity that has ever assisted a Christian community afflicted by disaster outside India. Jainism and any other persecuted religion finds suitable accommodation today in the West.
Whatever Muller was, the fact is that Schrodinger derived his first principle in 'WHAT IS LIFE' from the works of the former. Do not think that " Schrodinger was not aware of Muller because he was a quantum physicis". The discoverer of the DNA, whose work you attribute to the influence of Schrodinger, was not a quantum physicist but a geneticist. So If Schrodinger worked strictly on quantum physics which he 'found in the vedas, how did he come to influence a geneticist?
Supriya,
Jainism was, for a long time, the state religion in Indian kingdoms and widely adopted in the Indian subcontinent. Jainism declined from the 8th century and the main factor was the success of hindu reform movements. It was because the cow worshipers thought of being better than the others that was why they drove Jainism to near extinction. Jesus taught that we have to love our neighbors as ourselves and be each other's keeper. That is why Christian based charities are the first to respond massively to disasters. Mother Teresa would live Europe to live in the slums of Calcutta, in keeping with that teaching. Name one hindu charity that has ever assisted a Christian community afflicted by disaster outside India.
Whatever Muller was, the fact is that Schrodinger derived his first principle in 'WHAT IS LIFE' from the works of the former. ' Do not think that Schrodinger was not aware of Muller because he was a quantum physicis". The discoverer of the DNA, whose work you attribute to the influence of Schrodinger, was not a quantum physicist but a geneticist. So If Schrodinger worked strictly on quantum physics which he 'found in the vedas, how did he come to influence a geneticist?
Supriya,
He said he was more like a Quaker, a denomination of Christianity, listening to the still small voice of calm, which to him, was Jesus within and he never converted to cow worship as proof of his conviction and enchantment.
Supriya,
How does that change the fact that Muller had already written on the subject long before Schrodinger?
Supriya,
If he was so enamored by the vedas, would you mind asking him why he did not convert to cow worship? After all, you believe in reincarnation and he has reincarnated as some animal.
Supriya,
People have interest in things for various reasons. It is when they embrace that thing or philosophy can it said that they interest has been concreted. I am interested in muhammadanism, not because it has any useful purpose, but to unmask the evil that there is in it. Those people may have seen something useful to them in hinduism but it never moved them to accept the faith. There is an aspect of usefulness in many things except muhammadanism. Until now, I never took much interest in hinduism because it did not seem as an enemy religion to me, notwithstanding the numerous reports of missionaries being killed in India. I now know better from this debate.
ihateislam
These great personalities have strong interest in scriptures of Hinduism ( though they belonged to Christianity or other faiths/beliefs or atheism ).
ihateislam
Schrodinger wrote in his book What is Life -1] '' Vedanta teaches that consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal consciousness and there is no multiplicity of selves.''
2] ''The stages of human development are to strive for Artha, Dharma, Kama, Moksha.''
3] '' Mokhsha/Nirvana is a state of pure blissful knowledge. It has nothing to do with individual. The ego or it's separation is an illusion. The goal of man is to preserve his karma and to develop it further – when man dies his karma lives and creates for itself another carrier.''
The above quote clearly demonstrates Schrodinger's firm belief in reincarnation.
He wrote in his book My view of the World – '' There is no kind of framework within which we can find consciousness in the plural; this is simply something we construct because of the temporal plurality of individuals( and that is called as Maya means illusion in Hinduism), but it is false construction. The only solution to this conflict in so far as any is available to us at all lies in the ancient wisdom of the Upanishad.''
ihateislam
Schrodinger referred to the following verse of Mundaka Upanishad :
Brahmavedamrutam purasstat brahma pashchat brahma uttarato dakhinatashattaren
Adhashchova ch prasut brahmavedam vishvamidam varishtham 2: 2 – 11
Meaning : All that is in front is Brahman, the immortal, Brahman is at the back,as also on right and the left.Brahman is in East, West, North, South. This world is nothing but Brahman, the highest.
Schodinger's influential book What is Life is influenced by Hinduism.
Francis Clark, the co-discoverer of DNA code credited this book for key insights that led him to his revolutionary discovery.
Walten Moore, the biographer of Schrondinger wrote in his book ' A Life of Erwin Schrodinger' – 1] '' The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of Physics was a model of a great machine composed of separating interacting material particles. During next few years Schrodinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on super-imposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.''
2] '' His systems – or that of Upanishads – is delightful and consistent ; the self and the world are One and they are all.He rejected traditional Abrahamic religious beliefs ( Jewish, christian, islamic ) not on the basis of any reasonal argument , nor even ith an expression of emotional antipathy, for he loved to use religious expressions and metaphors, but simply by saying that they are naive.''
3] '' In an essay on Determinism and Free Will he expressed very clearly the sense that consciousness is unity,arguing that this insight is not new .From the very early great Upanishad , the recognition Atman( soul of Human being) = Brahman( God) [ the personal soul equals the omnipresent, all comprehending eternal soul] was in Indian thought considered , far from being blasphemous,to represent, the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striking of all scholars of Vedanta was , after having learned to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate their minds this grand set of all thoughts.''
darkfire316
I agree with you. This Grace is mentally insane. So we can't hold her accountable for her own actions.
ihateislam
Sir Ralph Waldo Emerson was introduced to Indian philosophy when reading the works of French philosopher Victor Cousin. He was strongly influenced by Bhagwad gita and Vedas and much of his writings havs strong shades of non-dualism ( Advaitavad of Hinduism) .
He wrote an essay The Over-soul – '' We live in succession, in division, in parts, , in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the whole science ; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related , the eternally One. And this deep power in which we exist and whole beautitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every in every hour , but the act of seeing and the thing seen , the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object are One. We see the world piece , as the sun, moon,the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul.''
I would like to suggest you to read his poem ' Brahma' ( God is named as Brahma in Hinduism).
Emerson was invited to Divinity Hall, Harvard divinity school to deliver speech. He said – '' Jesus was a great man , but no son of God ; that miracles were unnatural and thus monstrous ; that truth can only be found inside, but never taught; and that Christianity had developed into a very false , very corrupt system, too akin to the myths of Greece and Egypt – a ' petrified' religion. ''
ihateislam
//My God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. //
1] Isn't it true that christians say '' Jesus is the only son of God and every other person is sinner.
2] Christians have often called themselves ''God's people'', ''the chosen people'', ''the elect'',''the righteous'' etc. while non-believers have been labeled ''heathens'', ''infidels''.
//before Schrodinger expressed his views Muller had already laid the ground work.//
1] I dont think that Schrodinger was aware of the work of J. Muller because he was a Quantum Physicist and J. Muller was a Geneticist.
2 ] With Quantum physics only we can make sense of the spiritual world and we can show that it is plausible and logical.
This is hilarious!
I think that you should stop studying now and start sitting under a Bodhi tree and meditate until you attain 'enlightenment'. No need to eat, bathe, sleep or work. Just sit there and meditate until you die. That will be enlightenment indeed.
Supriya,
I am just knowing that you are a woman. Good to know that.
Waldo Emerson, when asked about his religion replied "-I AM MORE OF A QUAKER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. I BELIEVE IN THE 'STILL, SMALL VOICE', AND THAT VOICE IS CHRIST WITHIN US".
Supriya,
Heisenberg was raised and died as a Lutheran. His religious belief compelled him to say "–I HAVE NEVER FOUND IT POSSIBLE TO DISMISS THE CONTENT OF RELIGIOUS THINKING AS SIMPLY PART OF AN OUTMODED PHASE IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF MANKIND, A PART WE SHALL HAVE TO GIVE UP FROM NOW ON". Later he added "–RELIGION IS THEREFORE THE FOUNDATION OF ETHICS, AND ETHICS THE PRESUPPOSITION OF LIFE". Still on "THE FIRST GULP FROM THE GLASS OF NATURAL SCIENCES WILL TURN YOU INTO AN ATHEIST, BUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GLASS GOD IS WAITING FOR YOU". He was talking about the God and the religion he knew. Why is it that outsiders using your upanishads become 'great scientists', nut you the owners are not? That should tell you that their 'greatness' has its roots elsewhere.
Supriya,
Schrodinger said he was an atheist which means that he did not believe in any god, not even the cow god which you seem to imply. There are atheists from all religious backgrounds. You did not give a complete history of Schrodinger's scholarship. It is said "-THE GENETICIST H. J.MULLER HAD IN HIS 1922 ARTICLE 'VARIATION DUE TO CHANGE IN THE INDIVIDUAL GENE' ALREADY LAID OUT ALL THE BASIC PROPERTIES OF THE HEREDITARY MOLECULE THAT SCHRODINGER DERIVES FROM FIRST PRINCIPLE IN 'WHAT IS LIFE', PROPERTIES WHICH MULLER DEFINED IN HIS 1929 ARTICLE 'THE GENE AS THE BASIS OF LIFE' AND FURTHER CLARIFIED DURING THE 1930S, LONG BEFORE THE PUBLICATION OF 'WHAT IS LIFE'". There you have it that before Schrodinger expressed his views Muller had already laid the ground work. In any case, why did Schrodinger not convert to cow worship?
My God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
ihateislam
Erwin Schrodinger, an Austrian Quantum Physicist raised in a religious household but he called himself an atheist. However,he had strong lifelong interest in Vedanta ( conclusion of Vedas ) which influenced his speculations at the close of What is Life about the possibility that individual consciousness is only a manifestation of a unitary consciousness pervading the universe.( source – Wikipedia)
He is the author of many books.He wrote in Mein Weltansicht : '' This life of yours which you are living is not merely a piece of this entire existence, but in certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as e know ,is what the Brahmins express inthat sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and clear; Tat Tvam Asi means This is You. Or again in such words as '' I am in the East and West; I am above and below; I am in this entire world.''
ihateislam
Erwin Schrodinger and Werner Heisenberg , both Nobel Prize winning Quantum Physicists whose writings are influenced by Upanishad and Vedas.
Werner Heisenberg says : '' After the conversation about Upanishads , some of ideas of Quantum Physics that had seemed so crazy, suddenly made much more sense.''
ihateislam
You haven't answered my question : How do you ( as a christian ) attain enlightenment ?
Let me tell you how Hinduism guides to attain enlightenment. There is one verse in Sanskrit :'' Dhyanatamani pashyanti kayachidatmanam atmana.''
Meaning : the meditation refines the intellect and expands it to realize the supreme soul that dwells in every being.It is meditation which can lift one from the mundane existence ( Prakriti ) to attain one's true Self( Purush) or the inner consciousness which is nothing but the manifestation of the Divine self.
ihateislam
Let me give you one verse from Upanishad ( Hindu scripture ) :
''As is the human body, so is the cosmic body
As is the human mind, so is the cosmic mind
As is the microcosm, so is the macrocosm
As is the atom, so is the universe.''
@Supriya
Dear Lady
I knew many things .It was not difficult for me to explain how the ancient sages have calculated the time! Nevertheless the person was really not interested in his query –but in disproving me.He believed that Hinduism has contributed nothing in the progress of humanity?.I wish him to do some self effort/research in this regard.
Aryan
Ancient Indian sages had calculated that life started 1 billion 955 million 818 thousand 501 years ago and 28 cyclaes of Srishti Chakra have already happened. Our sages knew many facts. This is why they devised the Mala ( necklace) of 108 beads, which stands for 9 planets and 12 constellations and 9 * 12 = 108 various permutations and combinations affect everyone's life ( i.e. Vedang Jyotish or Jyotish shastra). Hence Hinduism states that ' Everything in this universe is interconnected.'
Yeah, it goes the same with you too. I pity your parents for your poor upbringing and also, that of Sakat's parents, for such upbringing!
Why should I worry for nothing at all? Don't you know that I love him eternally? It's just that we are having some communication breakdowns and some silly misunderstandings.
What about me? My parents have been very good and kind to me too by helping me to finish my tertiary education and they always reminded me not to be behave like a high moral arse like you, if I succeed in life. Anyway, I really pity you and especially, that Supriya. You hindus ought to be ashamed of your conduct and your manners here. I think that my dear Ali will most certainly agree with me.
@Peter son of GOD
Very simple the person who is beyond the time,become witness to time.He is called Trical Gyani in eastern philosophy.Since we are living in time so we need calculators and instruments of time. More over,those who can give the humanity a systematic way of counting–as Eniestien recall it with gratitude–it is not difficult for them to measure the seconds ,hour and minutes.If you want to know in detail you have to take course in Indian astrology especially 'Vedanga Jytoshya' it will at least take you three years and if you have enough time to spare,you are welcome to take a chance –your all above doubts will be satisfied -i assure you.Needless to say it is only the Jesus follower who are expert in modifications,Old is replaced by new!Testament!.
@ Aryan
My simple question was how did your sages count the time in seconds,minutes & hours just explain their method if not accept that you have modified your scriptures.
"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." – Albert Einstein."
Counting numbers & counting time is a different thing.
For some reason Google cahce url not getting posted so posting shortened URL of Google Cahce:
http://bit.ly/TXFBMS
EOD
Sakat
I agree with you. Her comments reflect her up-bringing.
Grace
You need not to bother about the future of Hinduism rather you should worry about your break up with Jonathan.
ihateislam
//Southern Europe was conquered by an African army led by Hannibal.//
So your ancestors were also involved in slavery.
//Culture is dynamic//
You are proud of that culture which sanctions slavery.
//I have answered your question//
Lying is old trade of an idle brain. Are you ashamed of the country from where you are ? You ignored my question that I asked about 1. killing of protestants by catholics 2. torture and murder of heretics and witches by ''God's people''3. Isnt it true that white westerners invaded the continent of Africa and eradicated cultures and imposed christianity on them forcefully ? why there are numerous creeds in christianity if Bible is an official holy book for all christians ?how do you attain enlightenment ( just like Jesus, the MYTH had attained enlightenment) ?
If you cant answer my questions then tell me that you are loser.
ihateislam
//It does not mean anything. Just babbling.//
So you think that you are more intelligent than Quantum Physicist Neils Bohr ?
I think you are ignorant of the Quantum Physics.
Supriya,
It does not mean anything. Just babbling.
Truth alone triumphs,
Arrogance is seen among those who still burn others to death for preaching a religion apart from theirs. Christians are who they say they are. But still recognize that others are children of God as well who are entitled to the same grace, only if they choose to believe. the individual makes the choice.
Supriya,
My answer to your question is NO. The two were seen as rivals and it was Mithras that borrowed from Christian ceremonies. Ask your Iranian classmates to give you examples.
Sheikh Muhammad,
Does your allah love the cow because it worships or eats it? I believe there were cows in Muhammad's days. Why did allah not give him the cow therapy to save his live from the poison that he ate at Khyabbar?
Remember you are replying toa female who is born in India–who had completed her engineering and pursuing her masters degree. Having a loving and always encouraging parents.What about you ?.The same cannot be expected of from your family?. I have seen you all these day's–the use of ugly abuse on your part shows your up bringing!!!.
Supriya,
Southern Europe was conquered by an African army led by Hannibal. They left from Carthage and established themselves in a region in Spain. Indians went to Fiji to enslave the indigenous people until Col Rambuka put a stop to it. Culture is dynamic and those aspects of my culture which are in line with progress are still in existence. We still maintain our extended family system.
I have answered your questions and if your are unable to understand them, then blame your self for being a nitwit.
Supriya,
Slave trade was done in total disregard of the provisions of the Bible which say that there is neither slave nor freeborn in Christianity. Bad as that was, the Arabs had engaged in enslaving Africans about a thousand years before the Europeans. In India, the Aryans invaded from the north and enslaved the others. Even today, the Dalits have the status of slaves, if not worse than that.
Ali is not authority!!!
Supriya,
The God I know is not a cow or monkey. The God I know is the Supreme Being who is the embodiment of love and goodness. There is no enlightenment from a cow which has to be led.
Indian,
Deception is not evidence. Go and read your source again and see that Mitharism never influenced Christianity, let alone merging with it. The writer says "THE MYSTERIES OF MITHARISM ARE NOW GENERALLY SEEN AS A DISTINCT PRODUCT OF ROMAN IMPERIAL RELIGIOUS WORLD. IN THIS CONTEXT, MITHARISM HAS SOMETIMES BEEN VIEWED AS A RIVAL TO EARLY CHRISTIANITY". Between the 2nd and 4th centuries Mitharism may have vied with Christianity for domination for the Roman Empire. If Christianity is derived from Mithraism, as you allege, Emperor Nero would not have persecuted the Christians for he would have seen it as an off-shoot of the imperial religion. It Is M.J. Vermaseren who says that Christmas was the mitharic new year and the birthday of Mithras. Other scholars, like Beck, disagree saying that there is no evidence to back up the Vermaseren assertion . Early Christians apologists took negative view of Mitharism and saw its ceremonies as evil copies of the Christian ones. Tertullian described the Mitharic initiation ceremony as diabolical counterfeit of the baptism and 'chrismation' of Christians. Justin Martyr contrasted Mitharic initiation communion with the Eucharist "–WHEREFORE ALSO THE EVIL DEMONS IN MIMICRY HAVE HANDED DOWN THAT THE SAME THING SHOULD BE DONE IN THE MYSTERY OF MITHRAS" Mithrasism did not last longer that the 4th century. Christianity still marches on.
/ Please share what future Hinduism has or can offer for this dying world?/
'Peace not Gun'
May be my brain is dead but your whole system is dead!!!
Sir Ralph Waldo Emerson was ignorant of the fact that that India, where Hinduism rose to fame, is a dreadful place to be born a female.
@ ihateislam
/The Bible knows all about science. Unlike your text which says nothing about the subject,/
You said the above things in the beginning of this thread in your post.So i gave you the appropriate reply.Now you drag me further into this discussion,but you cant deny the truth about the contribution made by Hindu India to science. It is well known fact that Jews crucified Jesus ,and everyone know why?Greek philosopher like Socrates,Plato,Aristotle,Archimedes , Pythagoras,Herodotus ,Euclid were not Christians and they are the pillars of modern world (of course the contributions of Indians and China were left out) . Who have persecuted the Jews? it is Christians.Why the Jews have not tendered apology for crucifying Jesus till date?.Why Jesus couldn't became the last prophet of Jews yet?. So the debate will prolong and i do not have enough time to play fut-boll here.India couldn't take advantage of the advancement in science made by it ,because the country was subjugated by primitive Muslims during crucial juncture of its History ,it is the misfortune of this great country.
Quit saying that Christianity has no future. How about Hinduism? Please share what future Hinduism has or can offer for this dying world?
Have you heard of modern slavery?
Ha! Another brainddead Hindu cow worshiper!
You should read Ali's post all over again,
Aryan,
If India had been so scientifically advanced or conscious, why did the gods go into coma and allow her to slip into backwardness? I have already said that India has never been known as the cradle of civilization. Look at scientific accomplishments and see the difference. They are dominated by people with the Judeo-Christian background. That can only mean the existence of a long scientific culture. India, like other nations, has made some contributions to science, no doubt. But that is not on the basis of any long history. It is a modern phenomenon. You say that Indians do not even know their own 'advancements' in science. Why? Because there is no long tradition. The attitude of Indians to science is summed up by Swami Achuthananada in his 'MANY MANY MANY GODS OF INDIA', where he says at page 9, 'advancements in science were expected to bring us closer to the truth; instead, science has set us further apart'. Simple, if your gods were so scientifically conscious, they would have given their adherents the ability to translate what was 'revealed' to concrete action, no matter how intangible.
Aryan
Sir Ralph Waldo Emerson was a famous American poet and leader of the Transcendentalist movement in early 19 th century. His comments on Bhagawad gita :
1. '' The Bhagawad gita is an empire of thought and in it's philosophical teachings. Krishna has all the attributes of the full fledged monotheistic deity and at the same time the attributes of the Upanishadic absolute.''
2. '' I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagawad gita. It was as if an empire spoke to us , nothing small and unworthy but large, serene , consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us.''
Indian
I searched on the internet and found the same explanation for the origin of Christianity. I agree with Sakat who he said Christianity has no future.
@ Peter son of GOD
I relocate the Eisenstein opinion here from my above post– that would satisfy your above query .
"Einstien's opinion about our Indian science
"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." – Albert Einstein."
@Aryan
This is mentioned in Rig veda. Be ready with your calculator
A yojana is about nine American miles; a nimesha is 16/75 of a second. Mathematically challenged you, get out your calculators!2,202 yojanas x 9 miles x 75 – 8 nimeshas = 185,794 m.p.s
You mean to say they ( sages ) used ELECTRONIC watches or countdown timer if not can you explain how did they came to this conclusion.
@Supriya
Mithraism and Judaism merged and became Christianity. Jesus, son of the Hebrew sky God and Mithra,son of Ormuzd are both myths. The rituals of Christianity coincide with the rituals of Mithraism including the Eucharist and the Communion in great detail . The language used by Mithraism was the language used by the christians . St. Paul as the first ''christian'' bears much of the responsibility for merging the two in his preaching and teaching and also comes from Tarsus, a major Mithraic center.
The idea of sacrificed savior is Mithraist , so is the symbolism of bulls, rams, sheep , the blood of a transformed savior washing away sins and granting eternal life,the 7 sacraments, the banishing of an evil host from heaven , apocalyptic, end of time when God/ Ormuzd sends wicked to hell and establishes peace. Roman Emperors, Mithraist, then Christians, mixed the rituals and laws of both religions into one. Emperor Constantine established 25 th December, the birthdate of Mithra, to be the birthdate of Jesus too. The principal day of worship of the Jews. The Sabbath was replaced by the Mithaistic Sun day as the Christian holy day. The Catholic church , based in Rome and founded on top of the most venerated Mithraist temple, wiped out all competing son-of-god religions within the Roman empire, giving modern literalist Christianity.
ihateislam
Tell me what do you mean by God, Truth and Enlightenment ? How do you( as a christian ) attain enlightenment ?
ihateislam
// Christianity had nothing to do with slavery. It was Christians who fought against and succeeded in ending slavery//
Your ancestors were enslaved by white christians The African slave trade was almost entirely conducted by christians.They transported their victims to the New world in slave ships with name as 'Mercy' and 'Jesus',where they were bought by christians both catholic and protestant.
Sakat,
Dear Sakat,
I am deeply touched by your post above. Needless to say that I was greatly shocked to see the comments coming from you. I have made it abundantly clear that I have no grouse against any other religion apart form muhammadanism which is the scorch of the world. You and I were always on the same side thrashing the muhammadans on this site. But suddenly, you went on the offensive against my religion. Be rest assured that I have nothing personal against you. But it will also be better if we stop throwing punches at each other. In accordance with my religion, let me say that I love you as a brother.
Best wishes.
ihateislam
It seems to me that you are ignoring my questions.
Rules and laws are different for slave and master in christianity. Bible says that master should dominate slave.And yousaid that bible doesnt discriminate. It means that you like to lie. Do you know black Africans were slaves of white westerners ? They invaded the continent of Africa and eradicated the cultures of natives and imposed christianity on them forcefully.
If your Bible teaches that God loves everyone then why protestants were killed by catholics ? how about the the torture of heretics and witches (if bible says there is neither freedom nor slave in christianity) ? why there are numerous creeds in christianity ? Tell me which country you are from ? Is it true that christians are worshiping Mithra,persian God ?
Instead of beating around the bush answer my questions directly ?
Sakat,
I have no time for your meaningless rants. You claim to be a Buddhist. If cow worship is so great, why did Buddha reject it to form his own religion? Why have you not returned to it. You are the same people accusing them of having destroyed your cherished institutions. That Buddha broke away and you are a Buddhist show that there is no truth in what you call hinduism. You are the greatest evidence of that.
If there is an influx of your gurus in Christian countries, what is causing them irritation to flee their country?
if the Christian countries had treated them any differently, you would not be talking about 'influx'.
Wikipedia holds that over 2.3 million people convert to Christianity yearly. That is why cow worshipers are jittery. It is only the truth that remains forever no matter how much it is battered. That is Christianity and I have no reason to have a sleepless moment. My foundation is sure.
Supriya,
Thanks for exposing your ignorance. The passages you quoted talk about servants, that is employees not slaves. No sensible staff or worker will fail to do the biding of his/her master. To be insubordinate leads to loss of job. Indians do have servants. That means they are slave masters. In Christianity there is neither slave nor freeman. On the strength of this St Paul wrote to Philemon asking him ti treat his former slave, Onesimus, as a brother. Cow worshipers go about creating situations of slavery.
@ihateislam
Dear, Cow is Allah best animal. Service of cow is great virtue in this universe of Allah. A person was suffering with cancer and had been told that they would not survive for long; cow therapy was done on many such cases. Out of the many patients, who were suffering with cancer for the last 4 years, many are now leading a healthy life. In the same way, a diabetes patient who was taking insulin and having a sugar level of 488 or 420 did not have the necessity to take insulin after the treatment of cow urine. In the same way AIDS, asthma, psoriasis, eczema, blood pressure, heart disease, prostrate, piles, etc., also have been cured with this treatment.
Cow worshipers still kill themselves. Now you admit that Galileo was not killed after all. Cow worshipers of the higher cast still persecute those of them in the lower cast. There are doctrinal differences in Christianity just as there are in cow worship. Those differences do not make the Holy Bible any less the Word of God. Beef eating is not allowed in the cow worshiping religion. But once when in India, I had lunch with a cow worshiper who ate beef, saying that he eats everything. He is still alive.
India has been accused by China of invading her territory many times. That led to wars. Assuming Britain invaded India for her resources, India is doing the same to China.
I have made known my country of origin innumerable times on this site. Check for yourself.
ihateislam
My Iranian classmates say that there are many similarities between ancient persian religion Mithraism and Christianity. Is it true that christianity has borrowed many concepts and ceremonies from Mithraism ? Do you know ancient persians used to celebrate December 25 th as Mithra's birthday. ?
Supriya,
How about the massacre of 1984 of Sikhs whose barbarity shocked the rest of the world and 'Operation Bluestar'?
Supriya,
If India was scientifically advanced in ancient times, why did it become comatose? India has never been classified as a cradle of civilization. Instead, mention is made of Mesopotamia and Egypt. I applaud Dr Matapurkar for his achievement in organ regeneration. If ancient Indians had known that much, why did it have to wait until 1996 before its discovery?. The first test tube baby was developed by Dr Christian Barnard, a South African.
@Sakat
Christianity breeds arrogance , a chosen-people mentality. It's only natural that those who believe ( or play act at believing ) that they have a direct line to the almighty would feel superior to others . This is so obvious that it needs little elaboration . A brief look at religious terminology confirms it . Christians have often called themselves ''God's people'', ''the chosen people'', ''the elect'',''the righteous'' etc. while non-believers have been labeled ''heathens'', ''infidels'','' atheistic communist'' ( as if atheism and communism are intimately connected).This sets up a two-tiered division of humanity ,in which God's people feel superior to those who are not God's people.
This is true CHRISTIANITY.
Truth alone triumphs,
Obviously you have run out of what to say. That is why you keep on repeating yourself. I have dealt with your fear in an earlier post. But since it is a major attraction for you, I will address it again. Christianity does not condemn anyone to hell. It is the choice that the individual has to make. God says the death of a sinner does not please him. For that reason, He calls on whoever cares to listen to come 'and let us reason together'. There is no such benevolence in cow worship where reincarnation is imperative. An individual must of necessity become an animal. It could be a bug, fish, dog, monkey, virus to cause an epidemic and get eradicated. It is such thought that actually generates fear. The fear that one's life is worthless and can be terminated at anytime as an animal. Now what happens to those people who reincarnated as animals which are now extinct? I ask you again, what animal were you in your last reincarnation and what will you be in your next? Who determines the form the reincarnated animal takes? The caste system plays a significant role in reincarnation and cow worship. A Brahmin will reincarnate as a higher animal while a 'Dalit' will return as a snake, insect or virus which will be easily exterminated. That is not cowardice but wickedness of the highest order because it condemns certain people to everlasting doom as they tumble through the dark cyclical tunnel of reincarnation.
ihateislam
Answer my questions.
ihateislam
//Why have the owners of the Upanshads not been able to find the answers?//
Neils Bohr found answer in Isha Upanishad. Quantum Entanglement in fifth Verse :
Tadantarasya sarvasy tadu sarvasyasy bahyatah
Yastu sarvani bhutanyatmanye vanupashyati
Meaning : It moves and it moves not; it is far and it is near;
It is within all this and at the same time it is outside of all this.
Supriya,
Why have the owners of the Upanshads not been able to find the answers?
ihateislam
//It is the pattern that cow worshipers cannot resist the temptation of associating famous westerners with their foul creed.//
For your kind information I would like to tell you that Quantum Physicist Neils Bohr said – I go into the Upanishads to ask questions.
@Sakat
Christianity is based on dishonesty. The christians appeal to fear, to cowardice is an admission that the evidence supporting christian beliefs is far from compelling . If the evidence were such that christianity's truth was immidiately apperant to everyone who considered it,christians- including those who wrote the Gospels- would feel no need to resort to the cheap tactic of using fear-including threats to inspire belief ( Lip service is a more accurate term). that the christian clergy have been more willing to accept such lip services (plus the dollars and obedience that go with it) in place of genuine belief, is an addition indictment of the basic dishonesty of christianity. How deep dishonesty runs in christianity can be gauged by one of the most popular christian arguments for belief in God : Pascal wager. This wager holds that it's safer to believe in God ( as if belief were volitional ! ) than not to believe , because God might exist and if it does ,it will save believers and condemn non believers to hell after death. This is an appeal to pure cowardice. It has absolutely nothing to do with the search for truth. Instead, it's an appeal to abandon honesty and intellectual integrity and to pretend that lip service is the same thing as actual belief. If the patriarchal God of christianity really exists , one wonders how it would judge the cowards and hypocrites who advance and bow to this particularly craven ''wager''.
Sakat
India was scientifically and spiritually advanced in ancient times.Do you know the secret of birth of 100 Kauravas ?It is said in Mahabharata that when Gandhari was pregnant she struck her womb and consequently had miscarriage . The lump of flesh that came out of her womb was cut into 100 pieces. Ved Vyasa instructed her to put these pieces into 100 ghee pots. He chanted mantras and thats how 100 Kauravas were born from single embryo.
Dr. B.G. Matapurkar ,a surgeon in Maulana Azad Medical college, New Delhi holds US potent of Organ Regeneration technique That he developed 10 years ago. He states that Ancient Indians knew embryo splitting and had the technology to grow human fetus outside the body of mother i.e. test tube baby ( source- The Times of India May 5, 2002 and Indian Express May 4 2002 ).
In the case of Kunti, Mantras were chanted by her and these mantras were password for the fertilization without physical intercourse and Karna was born. This technique is still not known to Modern Medical Science.
A passerby
I would like to suggest you to read ' Proof of Heaven' by practicing Neurologist Dr. Eben Alexander. This books tells about the existence of an inverted tree whose roots are upward .Bhagawad gita, 15 ht chapter says that there is an inverted tree having souls as roots and leaves in other world.
Dr. Alexander just like other doctors believed that NDEs feel real but are simply fantacies produced by brains under extreme stress.Then his own brain was attacked by a rare illness. For 7 days he was in coma.His recovery is a medical miracle- said by doctors.
Dr. Alexander explains that henhe as in come he journeyed beyond this world and encountered a person in white clothes having beard . That person guided him through a tunnel filled with light. Dr. designates that light as Om. Dr. Met and spoke to a divine source there.
Dr. says that there is an inverted tree having divine source as body and souls are roots and leaves. Today he believes that true health can be achieved only when we realize that God and souls are real and death is not end of personal existence but only a transition. That's what Hinduism says that every soul is unborn and intelligent consciousness.
ihateislam
How about the torture and murder of heretics and witches ?
ihateislam
Isnt it true that protestants were killed by catholics ? Galileo was not killed but persecuted by christian priest .If Bible is an official holy book for all christians, then why there are numerous creeds of christianity ?
You said India was a poor country. Dont you know that British were fascinated by India's wealth and resources and therefore they invaded India.You said you are an African. May I ask which country you are from ? I want to know financial or materialistic progress of your country.
ihateislam
These are numerous biblical passages that implicitly or explicitly endorse slavery, such as Exodus 21: 20-21.'' And if a man skite his servant or his maid with a rod and he die under his hand;he shall be surely punished.Not withstanding ,if he continue a day or two,he shall not be punished for he is his money.'' Other passages that support slavery include Ephesians 6:5 , Collosians 3: 22,Titus 2: 9 -10,Exodus 21:2-6,Leviticus 25: 44-46,Peter 2: 18 and Timothy 6:1.
@ ihateislam
Dear ihateislam ,i compliment you for raising some valid points.But let me assure you it is not there in Hindu scriptures.I want our Hindu readers should know about certain bad aspects prevailing in the society
1.Killing female fetus
2. Practicing un-touchability
3. Practicing rituals without understanding the underlying principles etc. are some of the bad practice which are ruining the progress.This is a competitive world,unless one is intelligent and having competitive brain ,one cannot coup-up with this ever changing world .Hinduism is based on perfect science– please take the advantage of the wisdom's of the scriptures.This world is in dire need of peace.Unless one is not in peace with self ,he cannot expect peace out side of him.It is the need of the hour that we must take spirituality along side our material quest .So please allow some time for meditation– ask who i am?,from where I come from?,why i am here?,where will i go from here.Once again i offer my apology to you,ihateislam–please forgive me if you found any word in my post is offending you personally– since they are not intentional.Lastly i don't follow any religion,for me only one religion and two cast ,i hope you understood ……………….
@ ihateislam
Yours is a broken disc!!! ,same rhetoric's like your brethren Muslim do ,they are milking the Qur'an and Mohammed ,and you are circumscribing around bible and Jesus, nothing more.The plain truth is you have nothing new to offer=/.Bye.
@ihateislam
/'gurus' go to the West to start up criminal activities and when the noose tightens, they run back to India./
When you cant handle the influence of our guru's–the whole militant christian in connivance with the govt ,falsely frame the Guru's in criminal cases -and when you cant prove them?,you poison them in the custody!. If the Guru's have committed any criminal offense,they should be punished according to the criminal jurisprudence of the nation,but wait– the govt wants them to go to their native country –why that leniency?.This is the real face of your religion–it always lives in paranoia,because it is based on lies and myth called Jesus!!.If the Indian Guru's committed any sexual misconduct–they are suffering for that act in the prison.But in the christian priesthood it is an epidemic–yet none of them are punished…………The Vatican is so busy in hushing-up such incidence–this is simply a limitless hypocrisy !!!.
/If Christianity has failed you would not be crying that the Pope should stop cow worshipers from converting/
The Hinduism is based on truth!!.First came Muslims and then Christian ,both tried their best to convert Hindus ,by force–by luring–and by deceptions.Neither was able to erase Hinduism from the psyche of the people in India .It is inherent strength of this ancient religion,even after so many life threatening storm,it is still standing rock solid and gaining momentum.The difference between the past Hindus and present is — earlier Hindus were following the ritual blindly ,so they were unable to give explanation about the significance of that ritual to a stranger.But the present day is totally different ,any missionary comes with the Jesus message to any Hindus house,he couldn't answer a kids query about spiritualism–this is what the young Hindu brigade !!!. Forget about cow-worshiper,just try to protect your faith– it is collapsing with its limitless lies!!!. Good luck let us conclude the discussion here.
XYZ,
Why would you object to Sakat coming to save your skin? It would not make sense for you to object. You are unable to comprehend the answers I give to your questions and keep repeating the same questions even when they have been answered. I have no time for trivialities.
"-YOUR ABUSIVE WORDS IN THE POST GIVES THAT IMPRESSION". Well they say that equity follows the law. I respond according to the language used in the post.
An African is an African irrespective of ethnicity. A Berber is as much an African as the Bantu notwithstanding that the former is lighter in complexion. Racism is the bedrock of cow worship. But to civilized people, it is not worthy of consideration. Seth Keith and Ben Kingsley are of Indian origin but are classified as Europeans. Sonia Gandhi could not become prime minister of India because she is of Italian descent. We Africans are proud that Pope Galesius 1 was an African. So go on and shoot yourself in the foot. The unmistakable conclusion drawn is that YOU HAVE FLED. Don't sugar coat your tongue.
Anand
When, where and by whom was it issued? I have never seen one.
Sakat,
The simple truth is that you have nothing to say.
Aryan,
The marriage law allows a woman the right to her property quite separate from that of the husband. If you entered into a lease agreement with somebody who was not the house owner, that made you a trespasser in the eye of the law. And so you were because the man who leased it to you was not the landlord. Being betrothed to the lady did not give him title to the property. There was no privity of contract between you and the owner. How being treated as a trespasser that you were can be blamed on Christianity exists only in your warped imagination. I have a nephew who is married to a white British girl and they have raised a family. Thousands of whites are happily married to black Africans. The parents who refused a prospective Nigerian son-in-law did not do so based on religion. Even though the full story is absent here, their action was racial. But in cow worship the religion dictates the tone. A Brahman marrying a Dalit is unthinkable. Any insistence leads to 'honor killing'. Right from birth, the child is programmed to look down on the caste below his/hers. The cow worshipers are a drain on the economy of their host countries. They are utterly corrupt; always cheating and circumventing the law.
My country is classified as an emerging economy just as India is. There are a thousand times more Indians in one state in my country than there are my countrymen in all of India. There is nothing to benefit from India.
Sakat,
Your 'gurus' go to the West to start up criminal activities and when the noose tightens, they run back to India. If Christianity has failed you would not be crying that the Pope should stop cow worshipers from converting. Ruining the lives of children under their watch is precisely what your 'gurus' are doing. You only have to read the Times of India to see what damage they are inflicting on the lives of young children. This is something called cow worshiping morality which leads to rampant cases of rape.
@Aryan
Well said!!!
@ihateislam
I think Aryan has loaded enough material in his reply to your post — i don't think any addition on my part.:o
/If you do not advertise your 'spirituality', what are your 'gurus' busy doing building temples and campaigning/
Our Gurus go there because considerable Hindus are living in west!!.But it is surprising ,without being called these westerners are queuing to get blessings from Hindu Guru's !!!
If our Gurus goes to west ,that means Jesus has miserably failed to provide real spiritualism to those smart westerners.They are Aryans and their religion is Hindu and their holy book is 'Bhagvad Geeta' and not that primitive Bible–so they are returning back to their true mother religion,a smart move.The God of the Bible is so hypocrite –he punishes the innocent for some one else crime–bravado. The Hindu Guru's go to the west on demand by the westerners!!.The Vatican could not digest the success of our Gurus in their own back yard.Osho ,Rajnish was poisoned by CIA at the behest of militant Christian !!! ,this is the paranoia of the believers,towards Hinduism.Your Fathers, ,Cardinals ,Pontiffs are all psycho's and pedophiles–they are ruining the normal life of the children in their custody. This is their sense of morality.
@Phoenix,
//Notice the equivocation fallacy he uses in this statement//
Why do you think I stopped responding to him:-)? He loves going about in tireless circles. I just gave him examples to show that reason is often not required (the kid believing that the Sun will come out from the East tomorrow) or sufficient (the calf instinctively 'knowing' that it has to look for the udders and suck it) to evaluate whether a certain outcome is reasonable.
@ ihateislam
The invitation is already there.
Ask him to respond.
colonizers abolished sati? then why were they burning women after accusing them as witches in accordance with christianity? evangelists are on par with islamic extremists
Don't spit upwards lying on your back ! .
Keep on writing nonsense relentlessly is not going to save Christianity.
Cow worshiping will be there until the end of times ,even the white people who imported slaves on a massive scale once upon a time have started worshiping the cow .
I am dwelling in the present time but I think you are the one who needs a rude awakening now ,so stop dreaming .
@ihateislam
/You give asylum to those who were thrown out? What an irony that millions of cow worshipers are now taking asylum in Christian Countries. Some parts of London and other cities have been literally colonized by these cow worshipers./
Ha ha!! Go back to the Indic history right here on the net you will find the answer to…………….. I myself stayed in London .In one incident i took house for rent from an African Black and i was paying him the lease amount promptly ! .One day to my surprise ,two cops were knocking my door –they took me to the police station.I came to know that the house was not belonging to the man– but his white fiancee! .The lady has filed a suit for possession of the house. I was promptly told to vacate the house.In a second incidence ,i was living in a guest house of nice old British couples ,though they were protestant –they love Indian philosophy ! Both the man and the lady were having in depth knowledge about Vedas and Upanishads.They had a daughter ,who was doing her medicine and she had a boy friend of Nigerian origin .Though the person was Christian–the parents of that lady were not ready to accept the man as their son in Law, why?. You talk lot about abolition of apartheid and all the Christians are equals ,but that is not the case ,you are living in obsession.
In India too ,there is a caste system prevail within the converted Christians.Once one Christian was able to convert a Dalit low caste Hindu, to Christianity –but when the same Dalit wished to merry the daughter of that Christian man ,he was beaten by the henchman of the person !.This you call christian democracy ,so great.Whichever country the Hindu migrant went ,they have contributed to the economy of that country in leafs and bounds.In England too no Hindu lives on govt stipend ,but you find Africans and Muslims of sub-continent do have become burden on the government .
/If India is developing, it is because of the knowledge acquired from the Christian world where the best institutions of higher learning are found/
Then why it is not possible for you to acquire the knowledge in the same fashion–after all you are from christian country. The reason is DRUG,it is not your fault –the test is provided by your master Jesus.Since last 2000 years ,the Christians are struggling to come out of this false ecstasy,but…………
Yale University was build on the looted money from the Madras Presidency by the then Governor of the province , Yale(1687-92).All Colonial Christians were beggar ,before they occupy India —we know them thoroughly.It is Indians and Chinese who are now pioneers in modern technology.The U.S economy is solely depend on Indian migrant qualified force and not on any native Christians,therefore they are involved in luring Indian minds not any African christian or any Muslim.
@ihateislam
/Bible in Daniel 1:4( king James) uses the word 'science'./
No surprise indeed, the term 'Science' derived from Greek ,and the language of the bible originally was Greek
.The term science in itself is not scientific invention below ,i shall give you some of the scientific inventions mentioned in Hindu scriptures.
The distance between sun and the earth is approximately 15 crore kms (In Indian system). The time taken for sunlight to travel to earth is measured as 186000 miles with latest telescopes
But for our ancestors:
'I bow to the sun, who travels 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesha' (mentioned in sanksrit)
This is mentioned in Rig veda. Be ready with your calculator
A yojana is about nine American miles; a nimesha is 16/75 of a second. Mathematically challenged you, get out your calculators!2,202 yojanas x 9 miles x 75 – 8 nimeshas = 185,794 m.p.s
One of the most popular mathematical theorems, the theorem which even a school kid can tell instantly is 'Pythagorus Theorem'
Square on the hypotenuse is equal to sum of the squares on other two sides'
The magical sentence given by Greek scientist Pythagorus to this world. Can you believe an equivalent theorem is already found in our ancient books 'Shatpatha Brahmana' and 'Sulba Sutra'
We punish our kids who get zero their subjects. That famous zero without which mathematics is incomplete is given by Indians.
In Book :Taittiriya Samhita of the Black Yajurveda.
Many significant scientific discoveries had been already mentioned in Vedas.
The most horrifying and threatening word 'Atom' is present even before 600BC as 'Paramanu' and Relativity concept as 'Sapekshavada'
Law of Gravity – Pride goes to Sir Issac Newton. But 1200 years before his discovery, Indian Scientist Bhaskarachariya in his book 'Suriya Sidhantha' has explained gravity as
Objects fall on earth due to a force of attraction by the earth. therefore, the earth, the planets, constellations, the moon and the sun are held in orbit due to this attraction".
Newton has just made a 'REDISCOVERY'
Einstien's opinion about our Indian science
"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." – Albert Einstein.
In the field of Medicine, our scienctists contributions are remarkable
The concept of Plastic surgery is first introduced by India and credit goes to Susrutha.(the professor of Taxila)
Inventing over 125 surgical instruments , around 300 operations and 42 surgical processes he created a new dimension to surgical world.
He classifies Plastic Surgery in 8 categories
Aharyam = extracting solid bodies
Bhedyam = excision
Chhedyam = incision
Aeshyam = probing
Lekhyam = scarification
Vedhyam = puncturing
Visraavyam = evacuating fluids
Sivyam = suturing
All these 2600 years before. And that is why he is called 'Father of Plastic Surgery'
The medical world points Indian Surgery methods as:
"The Hindus (Indians) were so advanced in surgery that their instruments could cut a hair longitudinally"
"The surgery of the ancient Indian physicians was bold and skilful. A special branch of surgery was devoted to rhinoplasty or operations for improving deformed ears, noses and forming new ones, which European surgeons have now borrowed".-Sir W.Hunter (British Surgeon, 1718-1783)
Before the inventions of Airplanes by Wright Brothers i.e. 600 BC , Saint Bharadwaaj contributed his knowledge in 'Aviation Engineering'. Many of today's technology in Aviation technology inspires his knowledge's and theories.
His creativity for flying machines started well before Leonardo Da Vinci.
Before the birth of Jesus Chirst Indian Doctors gave uncountable solutions in fields such as Anatomy, Physiology, Blood circulation, embryology, heart etc.When Europeans were not even aware of TB, Diabetes our scientists have wrote cures and treatments for them in Ayurveda medicine.
Unfortunately they have been uncredited and not been known even by Indians.
@ihateislam
I have no objection for the intervention by Mr.Sakat. I found that instead of answering my queries directly ,you are giving circular reasoning ,and i felt ,it is a sheer wasting of time.It is better to abandon instead .I saw that you took it personalty like Muslims(your abusive words in the post gives that impression).It was the matter of the discussion ,Why a BLACK African or Brown Asian was not able to become pontiff of Vatican till this day'.Your answer was an 'African' had already became the pontiff ,but you avoid to address about BLACK African,it is always the habit of Catholics that they always depend on lie to promote their cause ,you are not immune from that .Don't be under the impression that i have left of your fear ,i don't have time to spend here for discussing useless crap Jesus and his cult Christians.
Truth alone triumphs,
Although hinduism sanctioned the killing of Mahatma Gandhi, the persecution and enslavement of the Jains and Buddhists, Christianity had nothing to do with slavery. It was Christians who fought against and succeeded in ending slavery and salve trade which the hindus are still practicing in the 21st century.
Supriya,
Who is the historian that told you about the killing of Galileo by 'militant church institutions'? Such a character knows nothing about history.
Supriya,
And what did he do with it? It is the pattern that cow worshipers cannot resist the temptation of associating famous westerners with their foul creed.
Supriya,
Lying is an old trade of the idle brain. At no time did I tell you or anybody that Christianity sanctions slavery. I quoted what St Paul said that in Christianity there is neither freeborn nor slave. Everybody has the same status. Whatever you are attributing to happened in the past and it cannot be found in any Christian Bible. But in cow worship, slavery is an essential component of the creed and it comes in many forms. That is why it will never go away even though one of you has fixed a time line of thirty years.
Aryan'
The Bible knows all about science. Unlike your text which says nothing about the subject, the Bible in Daniel 1:4( king James) uses the word 'science'. As far as can be seen, it is the only religious book that does so. You questions are utterly irrelevant. Tell me what your cow worshiping religion says and I will respond.
Truth alone triumphs,
There are no myths in Christianity. People, places and events in the Holy Bible are verifiable. It is in cow worship that one comes across mythologies and an endless number of gods and goddesses that can neither be verified nor have anything concrete attributed to. Books have been written on hindu mythologies. Consider the following, 'HINDU MYTHOLOGY VEDIC AND PURANIC, by W. J. Wilkins, HINDU MYTHS' by Wendy Doniger, 'MYTHS OF THE HINDUS AND BUDDHISTS' by Anand K. Coomaraswamy and Sister Nivedita, 'THE MYTHS AND GODS OF INDIA' by Alain Danielou. There are scores of others. Where are all these ancient religions you claim Christianity borrowed from? Why did they disappear and only known to an inconsequential few like you? The truth is that there is no relationship between Christianity and any other religion apart from Judaism. Liars keep shifting the post. If it is not that Christ trained in buddhist monastries, it is that He borrowed from hinduism. Now it is a collection of ancient religions. It is either you stop deceiving yourself or you swim in it.
Truth alone triumphs,
What are these 'real issues'? Poverty is one of them. For decades India was known as the food bowl of the world because of abject poverty. The real issue here was that while the vast majority of Indians wallowed in poverty, the maharajas, who are a creation of the caste system, were drowning in wealth. Rather than use the resources of the country for the benefit of all, they were squandered on a negligible few while the rest of the world had to supply free food to the poor. Remember that cow worship does not allow the exit or penetration of another cast. So the poor who were/are from the lowest caste, remained/remain perpetually in that state. No less a person than one of you has admitted to the militancy of hinduism which embarked on a spree of destroying Buddhist facilities. In A-Z of Jainism, Kristi Wiley says at page 148 "–BEGINNING IN THE 12TH CENTURY, JAINS ALSO SUFFERED FROM THE RISE OF THE SRIVAISNAVANS AND THE MILITANCY OF THE HINDU VIRASAIVA MOVEMENT–". Those were explicit acts of aggression which increased the rate of human degradation.
Sakat,
India remained poor until she was able to free herself from the bondage of cow worshiping. Outsourcing from America has led to the development of the telecommunications industry in India. Without that, that sector would still have been as rudimentary as others. If you do not advertise your 'spirituality', what are your 'gurus' busy doing building temples and campaigning in the West trying to sell their 'yoga' and other crap to the gullible? They claim that Indian 'spirituality' gives longevity. Yet, it is the Christian West that leads in life expectancy. The 'gurus', with all their 'spirituality', always look like emaciated vultures hunting for carcases to scavenge. They go to the West to beg for money with which to develop the cow worshiping country. Who needs a 'spirituality' that enables you to look into a past life which might have been that of an animal? It is clear what pathological liars these cow worshiping 'gurus' are.
Sakat,
You give asylum to those who were thrown out? What an irony that millions of cow worshipers are now taking asylum in Christian Countries. Some parts of London and other cities have been literally colonized by these cow worshipers. If you give asylum, why then do your people flee in droves to seek asylum elsewhere? That is quite a riddle. They are stealing from their host societies. If India is developing, it is because of the knowledge acquired from the Christian world where the best institutions of higher learning are found. Some of these, Harvard, Yale and Princeton, were established by the Church.It is outsourcing from America that has brought the telecommunication development to India.
Chuck
Notice the equivocation fallacy he uses in this statement:
//Second even if the reason is unknown to you, their will still be a reason or "how you know" even if you don't know how you know.//
Here the word reason is now used in the context of being an explanation or justification and not the discipline of logic which was the actual context of reason in our initial discussion.
Sakat'
There are more murders in India than in the US. The difference is that while an act of violence is reported in the US, more than 90% go unreported in India. The Times of India and the regional papers try to report what is brought to their notice and the picture is gruesome.
Sam Sudhi,
I am talking about the present. You are dwelling on antiquity. The caste system can never be eradicated from the fabric of cow worshiping. It is a fact of live and determines, to a large extent, one's status in the Indian society. If it is disappearing, why wait for another thirty years instead of now? Even the Congress party, which claims to be secular, is not prepared to tackle the caste system head-on. It only pays lip service to its abolition.
There are over 3 million cow worshiped gods and goddesses and each has its own mode of worship. Some are peculiar to certain areas. What uniformity is there? You will always hide behind the facade of 'conversion' to cover the inadequacies in cow worship which is driving hordes away from it.
Think of this. According to you, cow worshiping religion has been around from the beginning of time. Yet it has 800 million adherents confined to only India. Christianity is only 2000 years old with over 2.4 billion people who make up the majority in 121 countries and minority in over 70. Even the blind can see which of the two is more advanced
Sakat'
Why are you coming to the aid of XYZ, when it is boasted a few posts above that any cow worshiper can maul the Christian? That seems to be an empty boast and your intervention indicates that your pal is being mauled.
Anand,
You claim to be an India yet you are bereft of any knowledge concerning the political geography of that country. You should know whether Kerala, which you mentioned, is a state or town. I know it as a state.
I have worshiped in an Indian Catholic Church and the liturgy is the same as could be found elsewhere in the world. Mass is said in indigenous languages for the benefit of those who do not understand Latin or English. There was nothing which remotely resembled any form of cow worship. What you call hindu philosophies have no attraction to non cow worshipers.
Whoever asked the Pope to stop conversion must have been an idiot. He should know that the Indian constitution and the UN Declaration on Human Rights, guarantee one's freedom to think and act as he/she deems fit. None of those documents gives the Pope the right to interfere in one's basic rights.
On your challenge, ask your 'gurus' to initiate the invitation. THE MATTER IS NOT ENDED BUT JUST BEGINNING.
Sakat,
"SO LAUGHABLE!!! , A HINDU IS FAR EQUIPPED WITH KNOWLEDGE, DON'T WORRY HE NEED NOT REQUIRE ANY SUPPORT TO MAUL YOU (I MEAN CHRISTIANS, DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY)"
Can that be made to happen here? Had it not been for the Congress Party which has made India secular, detaching her from the shackles of hinduism, India remained one of the most backward countries until very recently. However, the indelible fact is that cow worshipers are terrified of their fold shrinking as more and more people abandon what could have been too primitive for even the stone age.
What aspect of the New Testament was 'incorporated from Buddhism'? There is nothing in the Holy Bible which remotely resembles any animal worshiping religion.
"–IT IS IN THAT CONTEXT ; I SAID, THE 'THIRD AND THE NEWEST TESTAMENT' IN THE MAKING".
In other words, such a thing does not exist except in your warped brain.
its the knowledge itself that matters and knowing how you know that you know is just another form of knowledge//
And here I thought logic was the only form of knowledge
That's all "intuition" is – when the reasoning has already happened unconsciously – and we instinctively know something is true without consciously reasoning about it//
In essence,you're refering to intuition as unconscious logic.More fallacious and erroneous defintions,I need evidence for the first part of your definition.
My counter example:I have never come across a logician whose able to systematically assess an argument unconsciously.
===
For example I "intuitively" or automatically know I am having experiences right now (without having consciously reasoned about it)//
Although this contradicts your intial statements that knowledge can only be known via logic,your presupposition still remains flawed.What evidence do you have that we all use the discipline of logic unconsciously?
A passerby
Dr. Sina said this may be your 80 th reincarnation or first reincarnation on Earth.May be there are millions of habitable planets in the universe. Souls come to Earth and other habitable planets to experience material world. Isnt it possible that souls from other habitable planets come to Earth ? According to Hinduism God is experiencing his limitless potential by splitting into this diverse creation. So we are aliens.
I personally dont believe that a human being reincarnates as an animal or vice versa. I dont believe in Darwinism.
//Wow that means humans are better morally (consistently) then previous humans, do you honestly believe that? //
No I dont believe that. Morality or spiritual identity( that I am a soul and not body) is lowering down in successive births of every soul from Saty Yug to Kali Yug. This is the time in which people are awakening of their real identity. Many scientists believe that this world is an illusion( Maya). This is the call of time. Non-Indians are interested in Indian spirituality. The end of Kaly Yug is near.Before Kali yug will end, every soul will awaken of it's real identity.
Do you know past life regression therapy ?
I would like to suggest you to read 1]. Yoga Vasishtha( a discourse of sage Vasishtha given to Prince Rama)
2.] An Intimate Note to the Sincere Seeker by Sri Sri Ravishankar. It explains many secrets of life , Jiva, Atma etc.
No its not, the question is meaningless and leads to a contradiction//
According to your definition of logic and your definition alone, it validates anything (ie. endorses all or justifies whatever).This would include contradictions.
Note: this is not my dubious definition but yours.
====
Either 1 of these true 1)Reason tells us reason is not valid (which is self refuting and therefore can be dismissed out of hand. 2) Reason tells us reason (or possible something other than reason) is valid i.e it validates itself.//
The main problem with your logic is that you have failed to utilize the laws of logic to substantiate your arguments.The end result is that you get to make up your own laws,which is illogical.For eg. which principle tells us that your no.2 is acceptable?
Bertrand Russell's vicious circle principle tells us that a set which define its members is not one of those members or else it is defining itself as a member and and not the set,thus it has to besomething other than its members.The only way out of this paradox is via a higher domain.
This should settle it once and for all and don't forget to state your principles.
@passerby
Your explanation look reasonable,but when a person (an accomplished yogi) can cast away his old body and enters new young dead body ,keeping all memory intact ,then what is it that moving from one body to another (source read living with Himalayan master-by Swami Rama). This is called 'Parakaya Pravesh' in Hindu scriptures.
Regarding reincarnation, i have heard many people observe events to which they can only attribute to reincarnation. While they sound convincing, it is not necessary for me to subscribe to their views that these observation proves reincarnation.
I have two theories to explain why these phenomena happen. (No need to use past lives to explain)
1. when living beings die, they etched their memories in the world. People somehow get access to these memories through several means, ie hypnosis. Maybe a person get that particular memory because the person has something in common with these past experiences, a person which has a defect on his right hand, is more likely to get in touch with a memory of a person who also got his right hand wounded because of an accident. Since these memories are 100% copy of former living beings, they are so real that many thought that these memories are their own. Similarly, the 3D effects of 3D movies looks so real that people mistook it as something happening around them. (Note: don’t confuse these memories with souls, they are lifeless, they are only recordings of something previously alive)
2. Humans when tapped into their inner potential is able to access life experiences of former living beings
I am sure there are people who are able to think of countless theories which does not involve past lives as an explanation.
For me, there is another reason why i dont believe in reincarnation. Why? For example, when the number of humans is consistently increasing, does that mean there are more souls who have earned the right to reincarnate as a human? Wow that means humans are better morally (consistently) then previous humans, do you honestly believe that? Or it is merely due to the fact humans are able to sustain a larger human population due to innovations in various fields of science?
The numbers of living beings are ever increasing, where do the souls for the extra number of living beings come from? I recall I have read somewhere about Hinduism which has an explanation for this question. They say there is a collection of souls from the beginning, so the extra number of bodies get theirs by splitting some souls from it(the collection of souls). If you deliberately want to believe that reincarnation is true this maybe the answer, but I don’t find this theory convincing. Why? This theory is subservient to laws of the physical world, when nature produces another new living body, this collection of souls has to obey and split a soul from itself, without failure. But on the other hand, for some circumstances, the physical conditions to produce a new body doesn’t exist, this collection of souls, as much as it like, cant provide a new soul because there is no new body. This ‘ collection of souls from the beginning’ isn’t any different from other theories (assumption of how living beings got their souls). Secondly, the laws of the physical world doesn’t need these theories to work, instead these theories owe their existence to what the laws of the physical world has a direct influence on.
My theory isn’t genuinely new and it is quite simple. 1 new body automatically comes with 1 new soul. What about this?
@ Supriya
These are nothing infront of deaths of 4-5 Million people due to starvation in Bengal even when there was a bumper crop and the direct responsible person was the racist Winston Churchill.He should be named and shamed.
@ ihateislam
Haha nice try. Stay in your so called heaven.Never come back.
End of Discussion.
@ ihateislam
Really! You don't know difference between one state and another and ranting.
You bring the term "FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION AND WORSHIP". That's totally bogus on your evangelists part. Replacing Hindu Gods and Mantras with Christ is not "FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION AND WORSHIP". It is called blatant Plagiarizing. You outright copy the architecture of temples and build Church in the same format and fooling gullible people.You copied Indian classical Bharatanaatyam dance into Christian Bharatanaatyam dance. Churches in the morning play Sanskrit Mantras. If you are so keen to copy Hindu philosophies and structure why not put a statue of Sri Krishna or Sri Rama in Vatican or other churches and worship?
And let me tell you about your Popes' hypocrisy. In early 2000 your Pope came to India and when asked to stop the Christian conversions he remained silent.Didn't uttered a single word regarding conversions. After going our of Indian he said conversions should continue.This guy didn't have a spine in India but propagates conversions when not in India.
If you are so much interested in converting Cow worshipers take this challenge to your Pope.Ask your Pope to select any of our Dharma Gurus'(not the corporate guys) who are all equivalent to the seat of Pope for a Debate on whatever topic he Choose. But the condition is if he wins the Dharma Guru converts to Christianity,but if Pope loses he has to convert to Hindu Dharma. Do you or your Pope accept the challenge.
End of Discussion.
@ihateislam
I beg pardon for interfering in the debate without your permission,between you and xyz.I felt i am able to answer the post.I beg pardon from xyz as well.
@ihateislam
/The matter of Pope Gelasius 1 being the first African pope is all over the internet./
It is also their in the net that he is a 'Roman born' ,said to be his own statement .It is a presumption that he is North African Roman ,presumption is not conclusive proof.It is the tricks of Vatican to provide space to African convert in Jesus fold. The source for the information in Wikipedia, again is Vatican :o.It is well known ,the Vatican is having well propaganda machine to its support.Africans may accept them blindly ,but we Indians have woke up from the long sleep of blind belief.
/Nobody speculated of the conclave electing the first African Pope in the Church's 2000 year history, for that would have been a blatant lie. If you have the proof, present it./
You are always in a denial mode,it is not your fault you are conditioned thoroughly,like your brothers in paradise Muslims. Just go through the news papers of those day's or Google the net you will find the necessary information.
/Since you know that the Vatican is hiding many secrets which are detrimental to the existence of the faith, why don't you present/
let the Vatican open their library for study to non-believer.
/There are miracles attributed to Mother Theresa. The Vatican is not 'struggling to find' them./
OH!!! miracles by 'Mother Teressa',when and where?.Give me the link ,i too interested to know about it .As per my knowledge goes,her biggest miracle was converting poor people and innocent children by baptizing them with holy water!. You call this is miracle! oh miracle!.You may be right ,because of this she received noble prize– far more worthy Indians were left out.
/Many are recipients of divine healing and I am proud to say that I am one of them. /
Yea! There are many saints in Christians ,like Benny Hinn ,today he cures many people and tomorrow they all die?
/You still have not shown where Jesus claimed to be the last prophet./
Just Google,There is intense debate is unveiling there.Otherwise why that topic would have figured here in the net?,something exist; the christian world is hiding it,or else it will find its natural end!.
What time frame you are talking about , though the Hindus are now dived into different casts,its grip is loosening .Within twenty or thirty years the cast system will be abolished just like the apartheid system
No matter what cast we are we all go to the same temple .Unlike Christians of different denomination going only to their own churches so you all have no right to question Hindu cast system .
It is now the christians & muslims playing dirty tricks to widen the gap among different cast system in India so we remain split and they can take advantage .
Christians always boast that they are a advanced religion ( like the Jesus & Grace blabber…… )
so first you all unify into one christian religion then criticize the cast system other wise shut up…
Anand
The Kohinoor( the mountain of Light) ,the largest diamond was grabbed by British in 1849. It is set into the crown of Queen Elizabeth and it is displayed at the tower of London.
Before the British entered , India was a rich country and the fame of it's wealth attracted both travelers and invaders.British entered India to plunder it's wealth and resources.
@ ihateislam
Re-read the post !!! ,to incorporate Buddhist teachings in Bible ,the christian world has to edit the new testament ,it is in that context ;i said ,the 'third and the newest testament' in making.
@ ihateislam
/I see that you are terribly worried about cow worshipers abandoning your fold./
So laughable!!! ,a Hindu is far more equipped with knowledge,don't worry he need not require any support to maul you (i mean Christians ,don't take it personally).
@ihateislam
Our spirituality allowed us to give asylum to all those people who have been thrown out of their country !. We gave asylum to Jews ,Zoroastrians ,Christian (Syrian) and all other people– who were persecuted in their respective countries.You need not practice our spirituality ,you are least invited –but don't try to thump your ugly religion on us.We have not done any advertisement of our spirituality to the world unlike christian.Lies need tom-tom and truth is self – illuminating.It is because of India this modern world is, what it is now. Why Columbus went to America? ,to search India !.Why he was searching India ? because of wealth!.Why India became poor ? because of looters Christian,s and Muslims !.Who are wealthiest people in U.S?, it is Indians(Hindus) ,who are the wealthiest people in U.K ?it is Indian Hindus.Enough we have received from christian world! now it is our time to pay-back ,and we will return it with interest.Just wait and see how India will revive to its lost glory along with its neighbor china………..Because our success lie's in our ancient wisdom and our younger generation has realized it !
@Sakat
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils. Organised Christianity is a skillful apologist for the status quo and all the evils that go along with it . It diverts attention from real problems by focusing attention on sexual issues and when confronted with platitudes such as ''The poor ye have always with you.'' When confronted with the problem of militarism and war, most Christians shrung and say ,''That is human nature.It's always been that way and it always will.'' One suspects that 2000 years ago their forebears would have said exactly the same thing about slavery.
This regressive conservative tendency of Christianity has been present from it's very start . The Bible is quite explicit in it's instruction to accept the status quo : ''Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God , the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever, therefore resisteth the power ,resisteth the ordinance of God, and they start resist shall receive to themselves damnation.''-Roman 13 :1-2.
@Sakat
Christianity borrowed it's central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions .The ancient world was rife with tales of virgin births,miracle working saviors,tripartite gods,gods taking human forms,gods arising from the dead,heavens and hells, and day of judgement.In addition to the myths,many of the ceremonies of ancient religions also match those of that latecomer Christianity.To cite but one example (there are many others), consider Mithraism,a persian religion predating christianity by centuries . Mithra the savior of Mithraic religion and a god who took human form was born of a virgin,he belonged to the holy trinity and was a link between heaven and Earth;and he ascended into heaven after his death.His followers believed in heaven and hell,looked forward to a day of judgement and referred to Mithra as ''The Light of the World''. They also practiced baptism( for purification purposes) and ritual cannibalism-the eating of bread and drinking wine to symbolize the eating and drinking of the god's body and blood. Given all this,Mithra's birthday should come as no surprise ;December 25 th;this event was , of course, celebrated by Mithra's followers at midpoint.
Mithraism is but the most striking example of the appearance of these myths and ceremonies prior to the advent of Christianity. They appear-in more scattered form-in many other pre-Christian religions.
@ihateislam
Instead of beating around the bush ,come straight to the point and answer my every question if you believe in science(?) of 2000 year old Genesis. 1. Explain scientifically how everything was created in 6 days. 2. If Earth was created before Sun then what happened with Earth ? Was it revolving around other Star or was it stationary ? OR admit that the writer of Genesis and bible knew nothing about science.
@Anand
ihateislam has admitted that Christianity sanctions slavery. British invaded half of the globe to rob and loot. Both muslims and christians are robbers. Islam and Christianity encourage them to rob and loot.
"What I said is that observation is one of the mechanism of saying whether a claim is reasonable or not (For example the claim that the Sun will rise from the West tomorrow)." Observation is the tool used in this case to find out whether a claim is reasonable (or likely or unlikely) yes.
"The reasons of the phenomenon could be completely unknown. In this example knowing the exat reason or not has no bearing on the reasonableness of the conclusion. " I don't disagree with that, if we know something then we know it and (by definition) we don't need reasons or "validation" for things we already know.
" It is clear with my examples that it is not so." If something is true or reasonable then obviously we don't need reasons. Indeed that is what I have said all along reason doesn't need validation – reasoning is either valid or its not.
"Please show me the evidence." That's all "intuition" is – when the reasoning has already happened unconsciously – and we instinctively know something is true without consciously reasoning about it. For example I "intuitively" or automatically know I am having experiences right now (without having consciously reasoned about it). Obviously their is a "how" I know that but the "how" in the case of intuitive knowledge has not been done by my conscious mind. To add to that (and my claim anything needs validation by reason) the question of validation in the case of intuitive knowledge is not meaningful because the fact is I know I am having experiences right now, and asking how you know (or how you validate) the knowledge is a non question – its the knowledge itself that matters and knowing how you know that you know is just another form of knowledge.
@mystical
//No it doesn't, their is no "observation" you can do that will tell you whether something is reasonable or not.//
See your own response below: "That's right he is just guessing that it will based on his experience (which gives him at best a probabilistic conclusion)."
You just can't deny the fact that the observation of the Sun always rising in the East drives the conclusion here, the knowledge or lack of it about the reasons of the phenomenon not withstanding.
//you cannot however observe "something reasonable" or "something unreasonable" that is pure nonsense. //
Yes your observation is quite nonsense because I didn't say anything about observing something reasonable/unreasonable. What I said is that observation is one of the mechanism of saying whether a claim is reasonable or not (For example the claim that the Sun will rise from the West tomorrow).
//He doesn't know for sure it will rise in the east also it could be "safely assumed" for practical purposes.//
Which exactly proves my point. The reasons of the phenomenon could be completely unknown. In this example knowing the exat reason or not has no bearing on the reasonableness of the conclusion.
//Second even if the reason is unknown to you, their will still be a reason or "how you know" even if you don't know how you know.//
You have an issue with understanding fine points. I didn't say whether there will be a reason existing or not, but that whether something be considered reasonable only when the reasons are known. It is clear with my examples that it is not so. Your initial hypothesis was only partially correct.
"but assuming a premise is true without evidence." Its true *by definition*.
"According to your definition of reason,the question of "what validates reason?" is justified,since reason validates anything (no matter what). " No its not, the question is meaningless and leads to a contradiction. Either 1 of these true 1)Reason tells us reason is not valid (which is self refuting and therefore can be dismissed out of hand. 2) Reason tells us reason (or possible something other than reason) is valid i.e it validates itself.
"Actually just the opposite observation tells you whether to consider something reasonable. " No it doesn't, their is no "observation" you can do that will tell you whether something is reasonable or not. You can observe something and then reason about it, you cannot however observe "something reasonable" or "something unreasonable" that is pure nonsense.
" second the child doesn't even know why the Sun rises from where it does." That's right he is just guessing that it will based on his experience (which gives him at best a probabilistic conclusion).
" If it appears reasonable to him/her that it could be safely assumed that the Sun will come out from the East." He doesn't know for sure it will rise in the east also it could be "safely assumed" for practical purposes.
" The Exact reason for that is unknown to him" No its not, his past experience of observing the sun rising in the east is what he basis his this "safe assumption" on. Second even if the reason is unknown to you, their will still be a reason or "how you know" even if you don't know how you know.
Sam Sudhi,
You should address the issue of the untouchables who are not allowed inside the temples of debauchery. They cannot even come close. What you say about apartheid was laid to rest. An African, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, became the metropolitan of Cape Town under the apartheid system. Compared to what obtains now in India with the untouchables, apartheid, as heinous as it was, had a more humane face than the cow worshiping caste system.
Anand,
I see that you are terribly worried about cow worshipers abandoning your fold. There would have been no conversion from it if it had anything to offer. Do not blame the Pope for your self inflicted demise. There is nothing you can do about that. I have read of whole villages in India kicking out cow worshiping to embrace another faith. Just a few days ago an Indian actress decided to turn her back on cow worship. She is on the verge of changing her name.
"INSTEAD OF STATES I SAID IF YOU ARE VISITING DELHI AND KARNATAKA THEN YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF THE GROUND SITUATION THEN". Whatever you mean by that, your post mentioned Kerala and as far as I know Kerala is a state as are Delhi and Karnataka.
It seems the term "FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION AND WORSHIP" is foreign to you. It allows people to choose what they want. Where people are sure of their belief, they are ot worried about who stays or leaves their faith.
Anand,
You had no treasure to be looted. You are the ones killing yourselves. One of you said that the cow worshipers destroyed the Buddhist universities. That was not an isolated case. You are still roasting women and children today. That should make you be ashamed of yourself.
Sakat,
And where has your spirituality landed you? Until India jettisoned this so-called spirituality it was among the poorest countries of the world. It is the abandonment of such unprofitable venture that has brought progress. No sensible person needs your kind of spirituality. It is meant for retards.A man who is reoccupied with sexual intercourse can achieve very little in life. That was what happened to the cow worshipers.
Aryan,
You lack decorum and are ill tempered. There is no proof that the earth is 5 billion years old. What is always presented are nothing but conjectures which change all the time. That is darwinism is a cult cut out to persecute anyone who differs.
Sam Sudhi
I agree with you.
Albert Einstein traveled to India to understand Indian philosophy of spirituality
Sakat
I dont think that there is much difference between Christian David and polygamous Muhammad.
Agracean
Why did catholics kill protestant christians ? what happened with Galileo ? Why was he killed by militant church institution ? Why did British intrude India and kill millions of Indians in 18 th and 19 th centuries ? Does christianity sanction killing,butchering people ?
@ihateislam
Wikipedia says Bible claims Earth is flat. So you agree with Genesis which says Earth is created before Sun.You know Earth revolves around Sun. What happened with the Earth when Sun was not created yet?Was it stationary ? or revolving around other Star ?Ask these questions to Albert DeBeneditis since you believe him. How about the verse in Genesis which says everything is created in 6 days ?Do you have scientific explanation for this ?
Vedas say that the Earth is an oblate spheroid.
Does your religion teach you to use abusive words ? Actually your comments show that you are a short -tempered person. Just a friendly advice ,practice meditation, your hatred will disappear.
Sorry it 'too',typo
@Grace Ali Harrel
Don't think two far ,I am referring the American society in particular.
@Grace Ali Harrel
/That's the reason why in India, those Hindus who love Kamasutra as much as you, went on a raping spree, raping young ladies and even, female tourists./
What you called raping young ladies and woman in India is negligible, compare to U.S ,Russia ,Latin America and rest of the Christian world.Moreover the christian world do not have any moral ,so for them "RAPE" is meaning less term .Look at the above said king David story ,that is enough for the moment.
That's the reason why in India, those Hindus who love Kamasutra as much as you, went on a raping spree, raping young ladies and even, female tourists.
Please check your facts first before barking at me. Are you sure that those insane murderers were all Christians and not atheists or muslims or from other religion?
@ ihateislam
So you accept you are the one behaved inhumanely towards us and murdered millions and looted our treasure in the past 1200 years.Shame on you,you treated other human beings as slaves.Shame on you,you cut the limbs of even small children and made their parents watch them die.What sort of a human beings are you?
@ ihateislam
LOL.Seems like I touched a sensitive nerve.
Instead of states I said if you are visiting Delhi and Karnataka then you are not aware of the ground situation then.
Why not accept this challenge then.Ask Pope to stop and ban conversion.
As a Hindu I say we don't convert others and we don't go after them to convert.
Can you do it.Do you have that in you.I don't think so.You don't even give equal space to other beings in your so called heaven.So who should be ashamed,You or …
["….That is why you are looking for somewhere to hide."]
Can you elaborate? Where is Anand (and other Hindus) hiding?
@ihateislam
//Slavery was abolished over 200 years ago in all Christian countries.//
So you admitted that Christianity, HOLY faith sanctions slavery.
Then why in America & England there are churches for the black people ? Slavery and apartheid was abolished recently in America & South Africa .
Jesus name was misused by the whites to ease the pain of oppressed existence of Negros in America .
Now they are realizing the truth ,how they were bamboozled .
Adam and Eve were married to each other and they had children. Whom did their children marry?
Did their children marry with each other, I mean marriage between brothers and sisters or did Adam had it with her daughters? I'm sure his sons wouldn't have did it with Eve.
@ihateislam
I love Kamsutra and all the explicit acts of sex adorned in the 64 yogini temples at khujrao.It is creativity that runs the whole system of Universe.Of course the Hindus (ordinary people) don't know the underlying principle behind it and it is beyond the comprehension of Semitic people.In nutshell,spirituality means going beyond time ,space and causation and this could only be possible when you reach thoughtless state of mind.Perhaps you have not observed ,when you engaged in intercourse a stage will come ,when your mind stop thinking or reach a stillness or thoughtless state!.We tantrics call it union of Purusha with Prakrati or merging of dynamic energy with static.In our tantric dilect we call it meeting of "Ida" with "Pingala" .This has nothing to do with yoga of Bhagvad Gita.To know about this in more ,Just switch over to Osho.All the Abrahamic religions ,knew nothing about spirituality ,i laugh at their kindergarten understanding of spirituality and of course you are not exception either.
Aryan,
You ridicule yourself by failing to differentiate reported speech from direct statements.In Daniel 4:10-11, it is king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon who was reporting his dream to Daniel. He was neither a Jew nor a Christian. How does that make him a god talking about a flat earth? The shape of the earth is described in Isaiah 40:20 "IT IS HE WHO SITS ABOVE THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH". Circles are not drawn around flat surfaces but round objects. Photographs from space have shown that the perimeter of the earth is circular. Before that discovery, the Bible has already stated it.
According to Albert DeBeneditis, studies are in support of a young age. In his book 'EVOLUTION OR CREATION?', he argues that the amount of energy given off by our sun supports a young earth. Some stars are so large and bright that they radiate energy anywhere between 100,000 and 1 million times what our sun does. These stars could not have contained enough hydrogen at such rates for millions or billions of years because their initial mass would have been implausible. That means the earth is much younger than what is touted about. Let us see how scientific your bagavid gita is.
@Grace Ali Harrel
At least it is not put gun in the hands of children and mentally retarded people.So that they can indiscriminately kill people on the street ,in the malls ,and in the schools.Who produce weapons?.Look so called Jesus follower fought two world wars,they put atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed millions and millions of people .They run drug cartels and form 99% drug edicts oh ! all these are followers of Jesus…………Great religion and you think we have better future with Jesus,good joke indeed !.
Supriya,
Only fools like you do not have an opinion on anything. They go parroting what others say. What time lag does your religion give for creation or evolution? You have embraced evolution today because it is 'popular'. When more discoveries are made in future and the current ones discarded, then you will shamelessly change positions. It is only fools who see things where they do not exist. There is nowhere the Christian God mentions a flat earth. Evidently, you are not even familiar with the darwinism you are parading. Otherwise you would have known that something existed before the 'big bang'. Science does not dispute that the heavens were there before the gases coalesced to form the sun.
The sequence of evolution follows much of the creation in the Bible such that both of them agree that man was the last to appear on earth. Produce something similar from your bagavid gita. There is nothing impossible for the Christian God. Blame yourself for worshiping animals that cannot do anything.
Supriya,
Since you know that there is such an underground library, it means that its existence is public knowledge and it habours no secrets. If you know one single untruth, do well to bring it out. You may be dreaming up figures but according to Wikipedia, as at 2013, those who call themselves Christians numbered about 2.4 billion and the majority of them are in the West. The USA, Germany, Italy, Finland, Ireland, Switzerland,Austria,Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Croatia etc, had more that 70% of the respondents claiming Christianity. On the whole, the study found that 121 countries had Christian majority populations in the world.
The percentage of atheisst in Western countries range between 3 and 5, which squares with Saudi Arabia and India.
Mind what lies you fabricate. Is it true that Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Maldives were either Hindu or Buddhist at some point in time?
Indian,
As a book of divine origin, the Bible commands more reliability than any other particularly your bagavid gita. Of the millions of hindu gods, whose views does it represent? The Jesus seminar people are on the pay roll of enemies of Christianity. In spite of that the Bible remain immutable. It is the truth which is always attacked. Who bothers about worshiping cows to spend a second on its investigation?
I have been to Delhi and Kanataka without seeing Christian Evangelists trying to convert cow worshipers by telling them that Jesus was India. Those who manufacture lies to score cheap points should be ashamed of themselves.
It is a question of inferiority complex, as you have said. That is why you are looking for somewhere to hide.
Sam Sudhi,
As at Einstein's time, much was known about the cow worshipers. But Einstein chose not to waste his time on such senselessness. On October 26, 1929, in an interview with the Saturday Evening Post, he said these about Jesus "–I AM A JEW , BUT I AM ENTHRALLED BY THE LUMINOUS FIGURE OF THE NAZARENE–EMIL LUDWIG'S JESUS IS SHALLOW. JESUS IS TOO COLOSSAL FOR THE PEN OF PHRASE-MONGERS, HOWEVER ARTFUL. NO MAN CAN DISPOSE OF CHRISTIANITY WITH BON MOT. .Asked if he believed in the historical Jesus, his reply was "UNQUESTIONABLY! NO ONE CAN READ THE GOSPELS WITHOUT FEELING THE ACTUAL PRESENCE OF JESUS. HIS PERSONALITY PULSATES IN EVERY WORD. NO MYTH IS FILLED WITH SUCH LIFE".
From the forgoing, there is no doubt that Einstein had a lot of respect and admiration for our Lord Jesus. It does not matter if animal worshipers think what they may. They are of no consequence.
Truth alone triumphs,
Slavery was abolished over 200 years ago in all Christian countries. But it still thrives in hindu India. What form of slavery is worse than designating people to be 'untouchables' perpetually? It is quite obvious that no embodiment of evil is greater than hinduism. One of you even accuse the hindus as having destroyed the Buddhist university at Nalanda.
Sakat,
Pornography is an integral part of the hindu worship ritual. Who could ever believe that the muhammadans would fail or refuse to appropriate a place of worship and convert it to their own? Greedy as those grabbers have always been, they rejected a hindu temple because it was adorned with explicit acts of sex. It seems the only way that the millions of hindu gods can be worshiped is copulation. The kama sutra tells what pornography means to animal worship. It is there for all to see.
Please watch Michael Cremo Human Devolution in youtube .
What future can Hinduism offer to this dying world? Caste system? Spare the male infants and destroy the female infants?
Do you know who is John Newton? Have you heard of this song 'Amazing Grace'? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_tb2KKjUpM
Isn't Einstein right when he said that there is no limit to human stupidity? Who started the caste system and caused so much suicides and miseries among those young Hindu lovers?
@Mystical,
//Its logic/reason which tells you what observation, experience, intuition etc is, so no. //
Pathetic. Actually just the opposite observation tells you whether to consider something reasonable. Consider the kid knowing where the Sun will rise from. Did the Sun rise first or the child already had reasoned without having seen the Sun rising ever? Clearly the former, second the child doesn't even know why the Sun rises from where it does. If it appears reasonable to him/her that it could be safely assumed that the Sun will come out from the East. The Exact reason for that is unknown to him and the reasoning followed is subject to observation, post-facto not apriori.
@ A passerby
I don't know the answer for it.
But hey why not explore it.
May be since they can't do good or bad they just multiplied to single to multi to a state where they were capable of doing good or bad.May be the effect starts or started from there.Of course it's bad theory of mine.
I always wondered about evolution.Does evolution continues or stops at certain stage.I mean we are humans for a long time and same with animals and plants.Or is it after reaching certain stage further evolution is not required.
@ Supriya
See most of the Indians have this inferiority complex and they show this by mentioning some white chaps have embraced Hinduism,Buddhism,etc(I don't have problem whatever they embrace).I don't blame them or you,it's been ingrained as a result of 1200 years of Islamic and British(Christian) rule who made lot of efforts to make us feel like this.Now it's time for us to take inspiration from the greats from Sri Rama.Sri Krishna,Buddha,Chanakya so on to Swamy Vivekananda etc.
@ Indian and Supriya
The evangelist say , that they have given a sense of morality to the world. They say
"We have given a sense of morality to the world" — and they don't read, it seems, even their own Bible.
The Old Testament is full of pornography, far worse than any PLAYBOY, PLAYGIRL, or PENTHOUSE. Of course there are no psychedelic colors in the pornography, so you don't see it, you have to read it.
There are three hundred and eighty-eight pages of pornography in the Old Testament. This is the biggest pornographic holy scripture. One Mr Ben Akerley, has pulled out those three hundred and eighty-eight pages and created a book called THE X-RATED BIBLE. Christians all around the world were trying to ban the book, but it has already gone underground, it is circulating.
According to the book of Samuel, King David, not an ordinary person, but very much respected in the Old Testament — King David saw Bathsheba bathing from the roof of the palace — a great king! — and thought she was beautiful, so he had her brought to him so that he could sleep with her.
When she became pregnant, David called her husband back from the war — he was a soldier in David's army — so that the husband could sleep with her, and believe the child was his.
But the husband did not sleep with her, so David had the husband, Uriah, sent to the front of the hottest battle, so that he was killed. Then he married Bathsheba.
As a punishment for this, the Lord threatened that he would take David's wives from him and give them to his neighbor who would sleep with them in public view.
A great punishment! God also seems to be pornographic.
This is the old jungle law: an eye for an eye. You have slept with somebody else's wife; all your wives, not just one — David had many wives, he was a great king — all your wives will be taken away from you, and in public view they will have to make love to your neighbors.
This is forgiveness? And what is the justification? David has slept with only one wife; now all his wives …? And what have the wives done? They have not slept with the soldier, why are they being punished?
It is strange: David commits the sin, his wives will suffer the punishment. Great justice. Even an idiot can understand that this God is retarded.
The Christian monks are saying , "We have given the sense of morality to the world …." Then what was Gautam Buddha doing five hundred years before Christ? What was Mahavira doing? What were the twenty-four tirthankaras of the Jainas doing? What were Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu doing? They were all before Jesus Christ.
Christianity is absolutely unscientific.
There is no future for Christianity.
Supriya,
Albert Einstein probably would have read the Bible before he made that statement ,during his time the eastern religion was little known in America or just few rudimentary teachings of Hindu sages were translated to English. .
@Sakat
Christinity sanctions slavery.The African slave trade was almost entirely conducted by christians.They transported their victims to the New world in slave ships with name as 'Mercy' and 'Jesus',where they were bought by christians both catholic and protestant .Organised christianity was not silent on this horror.It actively encouraged it and engaged in it.From the friars who enslaved native Americans in the the south westand Mexico to the protestant preachers who defended slavery from the pulpit in Virginia ,the Carolinas and Georgia ,the recird of christianity as regards slavery is quite shameful. While many abolitionists were christians ,they were very small group,well hated by most of their fellow christians.The christians who supported by the bible,in which slavery is accepted as a given,as simply as a part of social land scape. These are numerous biblical passages that implicitly or explicitly endorse slavery, such as Exodus 21: 20-21.'' And if a man skite his servant or his maid ith a rod and he die under his hand;he shall be surely punished.Not withstanding ,if he continue a day or two,he shall not be punished for he is his money.'' Other passages that support slavery include Ephesians 6:5 , Collosians 3: 22,Titus 2: 9 -10,Exodus 21:2-6,Leviticus 25: 44-46,Peter 2: 18 and Timothy 6:1,christian slave owners in colonial America were well acquainted with these passages.
Indian
//The Bible is not reliable Guide to Jesus' teachings . Mark,the oldest of the Gospel was written at least 30 years after Jesus' death and newest of them might have been more than 200 years after death.//
oh really, this Grace is fooled by militant church. I agree with Einstein that there is really no limit to human stupidity.
//Strange, that the the version of reincarnation that Buddhism and Hinduism has, can only be applicable until the appearance of mankind. I guess it is just another theory made by mankind. Funny why Buddhist and believers of Hinduism assert their version of reincarnation is true.// I think that Supriya will defend her religion till her cow god comes home.
@ ihateislam
Read my replies to @ a passerby again.If you still didn't get it then read it again and again.
@ A passerby
Killing animals without a reason doesn't boost anyone's morality.When I put a scenario of human beings on plate you are defending vigorously but you are OK with animals.And Thank You for saying you can lead a good life without eating meat.
Regarding your last para I already said "When something hurts you or cause some kind of disease you take measures to prevent it or cure it."
My point is differentiating between killing for the sake of food when you have lot of alternatives and protecting oneself.
@ ihateislam
Do one thing then either Google it or book a ticket to NorthEast part of my country or Kerala.You find lots of them who will do anything to convert Hindus.They haven't even left children.Shame.
Bharatiy,
The man is recognized as the head of the family in most cultures. There could be more prejudice against women than what is found in hinduism where a widow is expected to burn herself to death. This is an indication that the woman is held responsible for the husband's death. There is no corresponding requirement from a widower. He lives on to marry another wife or other wives.
Which is worse, a woman being seen as part of the husband or being held responsible for a crime she never committed for which she has to lose her life?
'Indian,
I have read that Krishna, the baby god of hindism, was a thief. The hindus worship the cow and I have seen a documentary where a dead cow was left to be devoured by vultures. Thereafter, its skin was was removed for whatever purpose. If such are the hindu gods, then I cannot agree more with someone who quoted Albert Einstein saying that there is no end to human stupidity.
A passer by
I know who you are. Did you ask about Darwinism ?
XYZ,
Although the Dalai Lama and other Tibetans are exiled in India, they spend more time in the West where their largest financial support comes from. That a group also based in the West has exposed the goings on in the Dalai Lama's cabinet does not invalidate their accusations. Contrary to your baseless claim, the Vatican was one of those who supported the Dalai Lama when he was chased out of Tibet. Various popes have met with the Dalai Lama and had prayer sessions with him.
The Western Shugden Society has accused the Dalai Lama of being complicit in the 1976 murder of Gungtang Tsultrim, leader of the Tibetan Settlements organization. His brother, Gyalo Dondrop and representative in Bhutan were involved in the attempted coup against the king of that country. His brother has been accused of illegal arms sales leading to the murder of Losang Gyatso. The 'DL' was friendly with Shoko Asahara whose cult poisoned gassed the Japanese subway. According to Focus Magazine, he "SERVED AS SHOKO'S GURANTOR FOR TAX EXEMPT WHILE SHOKO USED THE TAX-EXEMPT FUNDS TO PRODUCE LETHAL GASES".
It is the Dalai Lama, not the Pope, who engages in illegalities for fear of losing his position.
Supriya you dont have to praise me, i dont really deserve your praises, i just came here with the intention of discussing something
sorry i mean applicable since the apearance of mankind
Anyone out there, do you believe in the theory of evolution? If yes you cannot believe reincarnation or at least the way how it works. Why? Why when in the prehistoric times there are only single cell organisms. What hinduism and buddhism believes that if you done wrong in this life you were to reincarnate as an animal or even worse. So back to the topic, how can these microcellular organism do any bad deeds or good deed, so when they reproduce their young, is it out of bad deeds since it's an animal? But by that time there is no single living thing ( humans) capable of doing any good deeds or bad deeds.
Strange, that the the version of reincarnation that Buddhism and Hinduism has, can only be applicable until the appearance of mankind. I guess it is just another theory made by mankind. Funny why Buddhist and believers of Hinduism assert their version of reincarnation is true.
A passer by
I know you are an intelligent, rational and compassionate person. I always agree with your every view. I know that you are a westerner, still you know Eastern religions very deeply. I don't know why didnt you advice Jesus when he had insulted Indian Gods, cursed Indian spiritual philosophies. Jesus has crossed the limits therefore Indians are attacking Christianity.
@Sakat
The Bible is not reliable Guide to Jesus' teachings . Mark,the oldest of the Gospel was written at least 30 years after Jesus' death and newest of them might have been more than 200 years after death.These texts have been amended ,translated and re-translated so often that its extremely difficult to gauge the accuracy of texts written decades or centuries after the death of their subject.This is just a problem that the Jesus seminar,a colloquium of over 200 protestant gospel scholars mostly employed at religious colleges and seminaries undertook in 1985 a multi -year investigation into the historicity of the statements and deeds attributed to Jesus had a high likelihood of being historically accurate. So in a very real sense fundamentalists-who claim to believe in the literal truth of the Bible-are no followers of Jesus Christ; rather they are followers of those who ,decades or centuries later ,put words in his mouth.
XYZ,
The matter of Pope Gelasius 1 being the first African pope is all over the internet. All you have to do is to Google Wikipedia and the information will become available. Nobody speculated of the conclave electing the first African Pope in the Church's 2000 year history, for that would have been a blatant lie. If you have the proof, present it.
Nothing will please enemies of Christianity, like you, more than the demise of the faith. Since you know that the Vatican is hiding many secrets which are detrimental to the existence of the faith, why don't you present them so that Christianity will die and cease to be a pain in your arse? You still have not shown where Jesus claimed to be the last prophet.
There are miracles attributed to Mother Theresa. The Vatican is not 'struggling to find' them. The Vatican has its criteria of confirming miracles. Apart from Mother Theresa, there are hundreds of Christians today who have are performing miracles by the power of God. Many are recipients of divine healing and I am proud to say that I am one of them.
Whether on not Buddha established the post of Dalai Lama, it exists as an exalted position in Buddhism.
Sakat
//The whole of Christianity lives in a paranoia that if anybody finds some truth, then what is going to happen to their lies that they go on propagating?.The Vatican has an underground library of thousands of scriptures which they have burned, saving only one copy. Nobody is allowed to enter, except the pope and the cardinals, to see all the evidence, all the proofs which go against Christianity. The public is not allowed to know what the truth is. And these people, Jesuits, are claiming that Christianity defends truth!
If it defends truth, it should open the underground library in the Vatican to all the scholars who want to study there, and Christianity will evaporate without leaving a single trace on the human consciousness.//
I was shocked on knowing that thousands of scriptures were burned to hide the truth that Jesus was not a divine being. Scholar westerners have realized this truth. More than 60 % Westerners are athiests. They dont believe that the Bible is 'eternal truth'or 'revealation of God'.
Sakat,
Any proof of your bogus claim? What is the 'third and newest testament' all about?
You are right to say there is no limit to human stupidity because an idiotic like you worship the God who said Earth is flat, Earth is created before Sun, everything is created in six days.
Anand,
No Christian literature ever talks about Jesus coming to India. The claim is by those who want to coat tail on the fame of Jesus. Jesus lived and died in what is now Palestine. He was taken to Africa as a baby. There has never been any link between Him and India.
Produce evidence that Christian Evangelist propagated the bogus story. It is you, Buddhists, who claim that He was taught in your institutions both in India and in Tibet.
Grace Ali Harrel,
Thanks for letting him know that.
Anand,
Mosquitoes and viruses are also 'living beings'. It seems they are as' human' as you are, going by your logic. For that reason they should find a patron in you.
easy, what will happen if humans is brought to the plate, many humans will feel insecure, because they don't know when they will be eaten. Humans will grow suspicious of each other, wondering when will others take them as food. As a result, humans does not trust each other. Is this kind of development good for mankind? This is why man has a sense of morality. Without a sense morality, laws and regulation human society will cease to exist.
dont mistake me for a pro meat eater, i myself think that being a vegetarian has many benefits, for me i dont really have to worry about the need to separate bones from the meat( which is quite inconvenient ) and meat always carry a smell that i am not really fond of. Yes i can live my life without eating any meat.
Yes, all living beings deserve to live as long as they dont threaten man's survival.
In my country there is this mosquito (aedes) that brings dengue fever and our country has routine mosquito sprays to kill them. Do you want to argue that these mosquitoes doesn't need to be killed? There are many people in my country died because of the disease these mosquitoes carry.
@ a passerby
I'm very impressed by your rants.
Ok lets take it to the next level.
As a human being you don't mind killing animals for food even when you have many alternatives then why stop with animals only.Bring humans too on your plate.Are you game for it?
When something hurts you or cause some kind of disease you take measures to prevent it or cure it.This is different from killing animals for the sake of food when you have lot of alternatives.This is basic common sense.
Let me give an example of my country's tradition.When Portuguese invaded Goa(a state in my country),to convert Hindus they force fed meat to the native Indians who were vegetarians.You know what the natives did.They considered eating animals a big sin and committed suicide.And the remaining had no choice but to convert to Christianity.This is only tip of the iceberg of Portuguese atrocities towards Indians.The Portuguese Inquisition of Goa is indescribable.
by the way since you agree that all living beings deserve to live, why dont you set an example of not taking any medication if you fall sick because if you do that you will kill those germs (living beings) .
You still have to reason about your experience to form any kind of judgement about it.//
Remember that reason is tautologically equivalent to logic in our discussion.Now who uses syllogisms to describe or test whether his experiences are valid?Do you write down a deductive argument every time you eat,excercise,sleep,etc?
Even if all humans abstain from taking any life forms for food, there is still cycle of live and death out there.
For example ants continue to be squashed by bigger life forms.
This person ihateislam just hate the notion that he will die a horrible death (example above} if he were to reincarnate as an animal, so that kind of reaction is natural.
Obviously we are installed with pre-loaded software, if we wasn't then we would not be able to understand reality or reason (or know anything) about anything. Animals for instance clearly do not have this software – they cannot understand reality or reason about things.//
Please show me the evidence.This should be interesting.
Reason – by definition – is the only method we can use to validate anything//
You're commiting the fallacy of equivocation by using the word "reason' ambiguously.
In our context,reason is equivalent to logic,and logic is a strict and formal method of testing arguments.I've already given you examples of acquiring knowledge without using logic.
If any other method is valid (i.e observation, intuition or whatever) then reason is still foremost since it is reason that informs us whether these methods are valid or not.//
You're essentially saying that the discipline of logic presupposes intuition or observation.In other words,we first reason about a concept or event and then we use our intuition and observation.This process would make intuition and observation redundant.
Nothing "invalid" about this about this – its just that your brain cannot seem to grasp this very simple point.//
The point I'm making is that logic (which is a formal method) and intuition (which is personally innate) are two different approaches for dealing with different predictions and solutions.
searched Naraka (Buddhism) this in wikipedia, found it is also a place where horrible things happen but fortunately it is not for eternity
Christianity preys on the innocent. If christian fear-mongerings were directed solely at adults ,it would be bad enough but christians routinely terrorize helpless children through grisly depictions of the endless horrors and suffering they will be subjected to if they dont live good christian lives
well that is not limted to christianity , i heard from my teacher which is a buddhist saying that if you don't believe (slander?) samsara, after death you will drop into the lowest of hells and get tortured for long periods of time. Not sure whether his saying has backing from Buddhist scriptures though.
Just to let you know, the chinese version of Buddhism also has a concept of hell and its inhabitants can get out of it through several means from what i know.
Other living beings deserves the same as human being do.They are no less than a human being.They have the same rights to live as humans do.
yeah tell that to a predator in front of its prey and by the way since virus influenzas like H1N1 are living beings does that mean we should let them live and cause death to numerous human beings?
No, this a world still is a place where a life can only live through the sacrifices of other living beings. Take you and i for example, the reason why we continue to live because our immunity system exterminate germs to a point where it cant overtake our bodies. If it does, then our body decay and dies.
This is a lie.
I agreed with Einstein when he said that there is no limit to human stupidity.
"Without them,logic could not be comprehended." Its logic/reason which tells you what observation, experience, intuition etc is, so no.
"Unless of course the human brain already comes installed with pre-loaded "software" enabling it to utilize logic." Obviously we are installed with pre-loaded software, if we wasn't then we would not be able to understand reality or reason (or know anything) about anything. Animals for instance clearly do not have this software – they cannot understand reality or reason about things.
"It is experience that comes to the conclusion that what comes out of observation, however illogical and unreasonable it may seem, must be taken at face value" You still have to reason about your experience to form any kind of judgement about it.
"Similarly a young kid will find it reasonable to think that the Sun will rise from the East tomorrow without employing any knowledge of REASONS behind this phenomenon" He does base that belief on reasons, i.e on his past experience/observation that the sun rises in the east.
Here is my argument
1)Reason – by definition – is the only method we can use to validate anything.
2) If any other method is valid (i.e observation, intuition or whatever) then reason is still foremost since it is reason that informs us whether these methods are valid or not.
3) Nothing "invalid" about this about this – its just that your brain cannot seem to grasp this very simple point.
KTE – That was not a negative emotion only the Truth. I was talking to you like I would talk to somebody about my favorite bowl of soup. Just mater of factually. Did you take this another way? Did it bother you that I called you out? Did that insult you? Your comments did not insult me in the least bit. Your words just revealed to me what I had already suspected of you. That you are a liar. That your words come with an agenda. Did that insult you?
Correction above post is directed to @ ihateislam and not to Anand.It was a typo.
@ Anand
You gotta be kidding me,heaven? Where is that.
It seems like you don't have any compassion to other living beings.You treat them as inferior beings.
Let me burst the bubble Mister,there are so many times other living beings saved humans and human butcher them for the sake of food.And it seems you are one of those who takes pleasure butchering them for food.
Other living beings deserves the same as human being do.They are no less than a human being.They have the same rights to live as humans do.
I pity you.
@Anand
I appreciate your views ! I myself is of the same belief.The Buddhist world has nothing to do with Jesus.It was Christian propaganda .They want to make a tie up ! with Buddhism,and this is their prior exercise.Their ultimate intention is simply to acquire majority share and to convert the goodwill of the company in the name of Jesus (of course with the third and newest testament , having all the teachings of Buddhism absorbed in ). I tried here to use their own propaganda to turn around the table against !.
@ihateislam
/Pope Gelasius 1 was a Berber from North Africa which was, at that time, a part of the Roman Empire./
I already said it is speculation ,but he himself had said it seems ;he is a Roman.If he was a Berber then why during the selection of successor to Pope Benedict XVI, it was speculated — the conclave could elect an African to be the first black pontiff in the nearly 2,000-year history of the papacy!.
/The Dalai Lama is the Buddhist pontiff that is known and each one is always a Tibetan./
The Dalai Lama is a pontiff to Tibetan Buddhism.He is having utmost respect in Buddhist world.However he is not authorized to dictate the Buddhist world.Have you ever seen him issuing any commandments to Buddhist ,unlike the Pope or any Muslim Imam. Buddha has not established any institution of Dalai Lama.It was mongol king Mongke Khan who constituted the seat of DL.
/You will do yourself a lot of good by showing where Jesus said He was the last prophet/
Go through the net ,you will find many debate is going on this issue.The Vatican had many hidden things in its womb,if they are disclosed the demise of the Christian world is faster then to Islam.
/Many extraordinary miracles have been credited to Jesus. It will interest you to know that He promised that His followers will do even better than He did./
Mother Teressa was ardent follower of Jesus ,then why the the Vatican is struggling to find two miracle from mother Teressa to elevate her to sainthood .You want to see the performance of miracle visit India or any Tibetan Lama,you will be shocked to see the advanced miracle they can demonstrate.There was a god man or sage or saint or for many people he is a God — his name was Puttaparthy Sai Baba -his videos of miracles are available a plenty on net ,please go through it ,by the way he was not a Christian.
@ihateislam
/I quoted from a book written by a section of the Tibetan Buddhists./
From where these Tibetan Buddhist spewing their venom against the DL– obviously from west !.The Vatican is a mafia center ,and the Pope do not want any rival competitor (it will diminish his wealth and influence) ,i already said;the evangelist can do and undo anything to protect their interest.Even Chinese communist Govt is after DL –they do interested in Defaming the DL……… It is not my concern ;how much wealth the DL has accumulated.Unlike pontiff of Vatican who is having his own state and drug cartels the DL is solely living on charity .He was expelled from his seat in Tibet ,now western christian world is embracing Tibetan Buddhism in large numbers and for them DL is pontiff.This certainly has not went down smoothly in the psyche of the people of Papal world .So many Tibetan refugees are used by these people to defame the DL (the likes of– you mentioned above ). Buddhism is not restricted to DL alone,remember Buddha was born prince and not a carpenter (a carpenter may be having a desire of becoming the prince) ,he left the power and huge wealth of his father only to find an answer for human suffering–and i consider this was the great sacrifice in the human history .Why Gandhi was killed ?,because some people were disliking him .That means ,for some people he was apostle of non-violence; for some people he was father of nation and for many people he was simply a villain.Now who will decide who was right and who was wrong?.
Anand,
I prefer to live in heaven with fellow beings to living numerous times as animals whose brain is of limited capacity. No matter what training is given to an animal, its mentality remains the same the number of reincarnations notwithstanding.
Chuck
I've responded to your post above but for some reason it's not showing.I'll try again.
You said: It is experience that comes to the conclusion that what comes out of observation, however illogical and unreasonable it may seem, must be taken at face value i.e the first step in recognizing something as reasonable. Same with instinct//
Like I said before,all these faculties you've mentioned like observation,instinct,experience and also my example of intuition presupposes logic.Without them,logic could not be comprehended.This is exactly why most people who have never even studied logic or math are still able to recognize intuitively, valid and invalid arguments.
Unless of course the human brain already comes installed with pre-loaded "software" enabling it to utilize logic.This would then be Mystics only other explanation,which would require extraordinary evidence.
Truth alone Triumphs'
Perhaps you have not read or heard how Jesus showed His love for children by rebuking the disciples who tried to prevent the mothers from taking their children to Him. His order was very explicit :DO NOT PREVENT THE CHILDREN FROM GETTING TO ME. When they did, He carried and blessed them. He admired their innocence and told the crowd that whoever did not have a mind as free as that of child shall not enter into heaven.
Jesus taught love for God and mankind. He taught that one cannot love God who is not seen if he/she does not first love his/her neighbor. He taught forgiveness no matter the offense or the number of times one is offended. His teachings are summed up in the Golden Rule.
God in His infinite mercy says that the death of a sinner does not please Him. Therefore, He invites all to come to Him no matter the sin or wrong doing. God does not punish without invitation to repentance just like a father does not punish a child who does not violate the rules or who is remorseful after an offense.
That is the loving God I know and worship.
XYZ,
You make very wild allegations which have no substance. I have been on this site for a while now and any adverse comment on an eastern philosophy is always in reaction to an attack on Christianity. Check that out.
I quoted from a book written by a section of the Tibetan Buddhists. How does that amount to 'depending on WESTERN information to form' my 'opinion? The writers simply show how the lamas in pursuit of their personal gains have harmed anyone who tries to stand in their ways. They have accused the current Dalai Lama of misappropriation of huge sums and nepotism. Read the book yourself. Anyone who is' highly advanced in spiritual heights' should not be associated with the kind of offenses which have been branded against these lamas.
@ihateislam ,Christians originally believed in the reincarnation. Visit links gives by Mr. Sina.
The biblical myths were already existed in various pagan traditions.No doubt Bible is a collection of out-dated tales,sometimes I wonder if people start worshiping Harry Potter after some decades…….!!!!!!!!!!!
Christians never leave an opportunity to teach that their holy books ere written for the ages and contain divine instructions that transcend time .The teachings of the bible are 'eternal truths' and they apply to modern societies just as much they applied to ancient times. Read the following verse from Corinthians 11: 4-10'Every man who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonors his head.And every woman who prays or prophecies with her head uncovered dishonors her head-it is just as her head was shaved.If a woman does not cover her head ,she should have hair cut off and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off,she should cover her head.A man ought not to cover his head ,since he is the image and the glory of God;but the woman is the glory of man.For man didnot come from woman,but woman from man;neither was man created for woman,but woman for man.For this reason and because of the angles ,the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.'
God of Jesus is extremely prejudiced.
X YZ,
Pope Gelasius 1 was a Berber from North Africa which was, at that time, a part of the Roman Empire. So was St Augustine and many other Church fathers. You may not have heard that an African was at a time the Roman Emperor. In addition, there are said to have been two other Popes: Pope Saint Victor 1, the 15th pontiff from 186-197 AD and Pope Saint Militiades, 311-314 AD. These popes came from the part of North Africa now made up of Algeria, Mauritania and Tunisia.
The Dalai Lama is the Buddhist pontiff that is known and each one is always a Tibetan.
You will do yourself a lot of good by showing where Jesus said He was the last prophet. I am yet to see it in the Holy Bible which records that there were prophets and prophetesses even after the ascension of Jesus.
Many extraordinary miracles have been credited to Jesus. It will interest you to know that He promised that His followers will do even better than He did.
On the Christian influence on Buddhism, I gave you the authority. Read it for yourself and stop living in denial and relying on guesswork.
1.The Jewish concept of flat Earth is found in bible.Bible claims that the Earth is flat.
Daniel 4 : 10-11 ' the king saw the tree of great height at the centre of the earth………reaching with it's top to the sky and visible to Earth's farthest bounds.'
Only with a flat Earth could tall tree be visible from the Earth's farthest bounds-This is impossible on a spherical Earth.
2.Genesis depicts God as requiring just six days for creating everything.Science in contrast has revealed us that the universe is already more than billions of years old and that new celestial objecs-stars,planets,solar systems and galaxies have been formed throughout the time.
.
3.Genesis says The earth and heavens are created in the beginning,then Light is created and then Sun and stars are created by God.
4. Genesis contains an error about the origin and the nature of light . It depicts God creating light on the day before the creation of anything that could serve as source of light.The stars arent created until the fourth day to be the source of light described at the beginning.You cant have light without light source ,so the Genesis account of creation is a mistake.
5Genesis has an error in the depiction of night being separated from day.According to Genesis God created light and separated day from night on the first day.However,the sun and stars which produce light ere not created until fourth day. So what happened on the first day ?
Read your own scriptures to know scientific errors in texts of christianity.
Anand
Westerners in droves are converting to Hinduism and Buddhism. Quantum physicsist Neils Bohr said – I go into the Upanishads to ask questions. Yoga is an integral part of daily routine of lakhs of westerners. Hollywood celebrities are fascinated by Hinduism. Oscar award winning actress Julia Roberts and the director of movie Eat,Pray and Love are practicing Hindus.
Jesus, read your previous comment. There you said,
"Also KTE, there is no need to be worried about insulting me. I Take no offense to anything someone says. Even if they are being offensive! Our words reveal our Hearts. It only helps me in our concourse. So please, in the ebb and flow of these conversations, feel free to say what is Honestly on your Mind. I promise I will not waste my time or yours with any negative emotions."
So if I freely said what I observed, you get offended and call me a 'devious', 'liar', and an 'elitist'. Look, if you can't take positive criticism, do not make statements like the above one!
Thank you KTE – I knew you were a devious liar this whole time. Your elitism is showing through like the sun at the solar apex. You no more know about me than you know about yourself. Deception is your favorite thing to do, is it not? I saw through your hypocrisy form the first question you asked.. You aren't fooling anybody….especially God.
@ XYZ
I beg to differ.So called Jesus never came to India.It's a tactic used by Evangelists to propagate Christianity.Please don't give fire to these ridiculous rumors.
@Mystical
//I already answered that in my very first post here, that if any other method than reason is valid, since it reason that has come to that conclusion it is still reason which is foremost.//
No. It is experience that comes to the conclusion that what comes out of observation, however illogical and unreasonable it may seem, must be taken at face value i.e the first step in recognizing something as reasonable. Same with instinct. It is reasonable to believe that a young calf will look for the mother cow's udder WITHOUT USING REASONS to find out from where the milk will flow out, or in fact that it is milk that it actually is looking for. Similarly a young kid will find it reasonable to think that the Sun will rise from the East tomorrow without employing any knowledge of REASONS behind this phenomenon, it is enough for the kid that (s)he has only observed Sun ever to have risen from the East.
@ ihateislam
So you tell us we are all ears to know.Why inquisitions happened?Why Galileo was blinded?Why was Church seperated from the State?Why you guys come to my country and convert by luring with money and why US and European Govts sponsor these conversions?
Does the Pope has the guts to stop and ban the conversions.
I as a follower of Hindu Dharma say we don't have conversions by any means good or bad.We only reconvert our long lost brothers and sisters who went outside Sanaathana Dharma(Hindu,Buddhist,Jain or Sikh) and not by luring with money or deception.
@ ihateislam
Who said to scare the child.Other than you here no one said it.
If you are afraid of being killed for food then stop eating animals(if you are eating animals) atleast they live longer for sometime.Even humans get killed for any other reason.Or you think animals are low life and they shouldn't live but only seen as monsters or some dreaded pests.
Isn't that good you are going to live again some n number of times.Doesn't matter if you are born again as a human being or an animal,just live as you are born.It's upto you how you live your life as a human being or animal.
/Christianity is not and can never be a 'useless crap' for it has influenced Buddhism in no small way/.
In fact, Jesus Christ had come to India, hearing about Gautam Buddha. Although Gautam Buddha was dead, he had left enlightened people, "and there may be some few still who are enlightened."
Enlightened Buddhists had created two great universities, Nalanda and Takshashila. Those were the first universities in the world. Oxford is only one thousand years old, and Oxford has only ten thousand students. Nalanda had fifty thousand students; Takshashila had one hundred thousand students.
They were not ordinary students, they were sannyasins, and they were not learning scriptures, they were learning meditation. They were learning how to enter into past lives and to find out what they had done in the past lives. Those were great universities which were destroyed by the Hindus.
But Jesus came at the right time. He could meet enlightened masters in Nalanda, in Takshashila. He went to both the universities, it is on record. And far away in Ladakh, in the Himalayas, there is a Buddhist monastery which has a record of all the visitors. One of the visitors to the monastery in Ladakh was Jesus.
One hundred and fifty years ago a Russian explorer reached to Ladakh, and he has copied the whole page that was written about Jesus: "A man who was a Jew, a young man, came and remained in the monastery. He was tremendously beautiful and he tried to learn everything of what Buddha had been teaching. He has visited Takshashila and he has visited Nalanda, and he has seen enlightened people and learned many things from them."
These are the seventeen years that are missing from the Bible. Seventeen years he was here in India, in Ladakh, in Tibet, so whatever he was teaching was borrowed from the East.
Christians have not given a moral sense to humanity; even Christ has borrowed it from the East. There is great similarity between his statements and Gautam Buddha's, but Gautam Buddha's statements have an authority which Jesus' do not have.
@ihateislam
/Pope Gelasius 1 was pontiff from March 492 to his death in 496. He was the third Pope and was of African descent./
There is no definiteness as to his African origin ,he himself has declared –he is of Roman born.Even otherwise believed an African:only one! all these years! why? the Vatican did not find any worthy African or Asian from 496 AD till date to be the Jesus of Vatican.
/When was the last time the Dalai Lama did not come from Tibet? If there is none, as it is obvious, then Buddhism discriminates 'between humans'./
Budhism do not begin around Dalai Lama and ends with him.He is not the pontiff to whole Buddhist world .Because Buddha did not passed on his baton to any of his follower,he was not intended to create any religion.He said before me many Buddha's came at this moment there are many Buddha's living ,in future too many ,many Buddha's will come– in contrast Jesus say i am the last "Prophet" .Mohammed borrowed this concept from Jesus for his new religion Islam.His follower are daily reminding the public about the last prophet "Mohammed" .There is a say in eastern philosophy ,"any person say he is a saint don't believe him/ any saint bring ' i' and 'mine' while addressing himself;definitely he is not a saint" — Jesus said "I am the last Prophet " ,this statement speaks lot about this Jesus man.Therefore i say he is a myth! Forget about Buddhist translation of sutra's.The original sutra's are intact in pali language (spoken during Buddha's time) and i assure you there is no influence from any missionaries upon these sutra's .
I told you about WESTERN propaganda.These missionaries are very clever they can do and undo anything.
Bharatiy,
You have not stated your religion. I will only assume that you are a Hindu. If you are, then I can tell you that there is no worse terrorizing, lurid, sadistic portrait than the thought of human beings being transformed into animals to go through an endless cycle of reincarnation. Think of a child who is told that he/she would become a monstrous animal or dreaded pest which is despised by everybody.
The question for you is, what type of animal were you in your last reincarnation? I would rather love my God and humanity and avoid hell than wish to become a different animal at each reincarnation. What if I am killed for food of for any other reason?
Aryan,
Can you show where Jesus said that? If not, then you remain a hopeless liar.
XYZ,
Christianity is not and can never be a 'useless crap' for it has influenced Buddhism in no small way.
You should know what happened to the university of Nalanda which was a great institution of its time though its achievements or potentials have been grossly exaggerated by you.
Nothing stands Buddhism out as being extra ordinarily peaceful. Right now Buddhists are beating bloody hell out of the muhammadans in both Myanmar and Thailand.
@ihateislam
You agree that ,it is the so called follower ,who try to malign religion or faith based on the clarity of pious people– to their own advantage.This site is exclusively dedicated for striping Mohammedan cult and all the infidels are aware of that .But some time the attacks are diverted towards eastern philosophies (especially by evangelist ) in an unhealthy way .Any way Buddha's teachings has nothing to do with the Buddhism of Lama's .Let me tell you these lama's are highly advanced in spiritual height …………apparent truth is not what it is in hiding.I have seen their real strength.You have depend on WESTERN information to form your opinion about Lama,s in particular and Buddhism in general.It is always the habit of christian world to propagate lies about other faiths and religions.
XYZ,
Pope Gelasius 1 was pontiff from March 492 to his death in 496. He was the third Pope and was of African descent. So it is not true that there has been no European Pope. When was the last time the Dalai Lama did not come from Tibet? If there is none, as it is obvious, then Buddhism discriminates 'between humans'.
When you say that Jesus was a myth, are you implying that He never existed? But Buddhism acknowledges Him. A Buddhist convert to Jehovah's Witnesses wrote that Jesus is one of the Buddhist gods. Jesus has influenced Buddhism. In 782, a Christian missionary in Chang'an, China, Adam, helped his Buddhist friend,Prajna, to translate the Sanskrit Sutras into Chinese. Adam was good in Chinese having translated the Bible into that language. From there Christian concepts were infiltrated into the translated Sutras. The Japanese monks in Chang'an. These translations would become the founding texts of the two great Japanese Buddhist schools–Shingon and Tendai and all the later Buddhist movements(Christianity and Buddhism in China, page 42).
XYZ,
Even though it has been my policy not to join issues with people of other faiths who are not muhammadans, it behoves me to respond whenever somebody crosses the threshold. And you have done that.
Apartheid has never been part of the teaching of Christ. People exploit situations for various purposes which may have nothing to do with the teachings of a religious leader. Buddhism is not immune to this. In a book entitled 'A GREAT DECEPTION', the Western Shugden Society said this at page 31, "–THE TERM 'LAMA' REFERS TO THE FIFTH, THIRTEENTH AND FOURTEENTH DALAI LAMAS OF TIBET. THE POLICY OF THESE LAMAS HAS BEEN TO USE RELIGION FOR POLITICAL AIMS, THUS CAUSING SUFFERING TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION". The book then goes on to give a graphic account of intrigues and assassinations at the highest echelon of Buddhism.
European colonialism like Buddhism has it flaws. But the former also did a lot to abolish inhuman practices such as 'sati' in India and the killing of twins in some cultures.
I already answered that in my very first post here, that if any other method than reason is valid, since it reason that has come to that conclusion it is still reason which is foremost.//
Your argument is unintelligible.Here's another look at your argument in a formal pattern:Keep in mind that the terms "if and since" are premise indicators.Logic 101
if A
If B
Therefore C
Yet another invalid pattern.Remember,a sound argument has both a valid structure as well as true premises.There are at least 7 most commonly used logical formats.Yours don't fit any of them.
My formats jumbled up when I posted it,Here it is again:
(p1)If A then B
(p2) A
(c) therefore B
or
(p1) If X then Y
(p2) If Y then Z
(c) If X then Z
Their is no question here//
First off,your understanding of the term "beg the question" is incorrect.BTQ is not a question that needs to be asked but assuming a premise is true without evidence.
reason by definition is the tool or method we use to validate anything therefore this question "what validates reason?" is just pure nonsense.//
According to your definition of reason,the question of "what validates reason?" is justified,since reason validates anything (no matter what).
Also your format is incorrect. A therefore B.This is invalid.
A valid deductive format requires at least 2 premises;(a proposition and assertion) before concluding.
For eg. If (P1)A then B or (1)If X then Y
(P2)A (2)If Y then Z
(c)Therefore B (C) If X then Z
Lastly,my contention is not "what validates reason?" but your paradoxical thinking,which you insist should not scrutinized,because there's nothing besides logic.
Son of God,Jesus said – The universe is created in 6 days. The Earth is formed before Sun.The Earth is flat.
@Sakat
Christianity preys on the innocent. If christian fear-mongerings were directed solely at adults ,it would be bad enough but christians routinely terrorize helpless children through grisly depictions of the endless horrors and suffering they will be subjected to if they dont live good christian lives.Christianity has darkened early years of generations of children who have lived on the terror of dying while in mortal sin and going to endless torment as a result. All of these children were trusting of adults and they didnt have the ability to analyze what they were being told,they were simply helpless victims,who ironically victimized following generations in the same manner that they themselves had been victimized.The nearly 2000 years of christianity terrorizing of children ranks as one of its greatest crimes.And its one that continues to this day.
As an example of christianity's cruel brainashingof the innocents, consider this quotation from an officially approved 19 th century Catholic children's book( Tracts of Spiritual Reading by Rev. J.Furniss,CSSR) :
Look into this little prison.In the middle of it there is a boy,a young man .He is silent ,despair is on him.Hiseyes are burning like two burning coals .Two long flames come out of his ears. His brathing is difficult.Sometimes he opens his mouth and breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen,there is a sound just like that of a ketle boiling.Is it really a kettlewhich is boiling ? No; then what is it ? The blood is boiling in the scalding veins of that boy.The brain is boiling and bubbling in his head.The marrow is boiling in his bones.Ask him why he is thus tormented .His answer is that hen he was alive,his blood boiled to do very wicked things.
There are many similar passages in this book. Commenting on it William Meagher, Vice General of Dublin states in his Approbation-'' I have carefully read in his little volume for children and have found nothing whatever in it contrary to the doctrines of Holy Faith; but on the contrary a great deal to charm,instruct and edify the youthful classes for whose benefit it has been written."
Christianity and Sanatan Dharma
1. Christianity : Everyone is sinner by birth except Jesus.
Sanatan Dharma : Sin is not in our nature. We are pure consciousness. Sin happens when we move attention from self i.e. God.On practicing Yoga, meditation and Pranayam, a wave of Bliss arises in our body,mind and soul.
2. Christianity : God loves only believers. Believers enjoy in eternal heaven and Non-believers suffer in eternal hell.
Sanatan Dharma :Does a child ever worry by saying,''Is my mother cooking for me at home?' 'No. He thinks,''When I reach the home she will definitely serve me." This type of confidence of the child about his mother should be there with the Divine also,''God is my very own and He loves me( whether I am christian or sanatan dharmi)''.
@ihateislam , Holiest(?) Religion Christianity :The experience of the devil and hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all christian creeds and many fundamentalists still openly resort to terrorizing their followers with lurid,sadistic portraits of the suffering of non believers after death.it is an attempt to whip the flock into line through threats,through appeals to a base part of human nature – fear and cowardice.
Christian missionaries funded by militant church institutions 'fooled' people to convert them to christianity.
@ihateislam
Who bought apartheid in South Africa? .Why Britishers other European were treating Indians and all Asians and Africans as untouchables?.Why still an African black or Asian brown has not adored Vatican?.Jesus was Myth and he is! .Only Buddhism do not discriminate between humans.The oldest Universities in the world where belonging to Buddhist viz .Taxila and Nalanda .If this world would have had embraced Buddhism –every where peace could have prevailed and the humans progress……………At this moment we would have settled down on any other habitable planet. Christianity and Islam ,both are useless crap!!!!!!!!!!!
"1.Circular reasoning/self-reference are all paradoxes that begs the question." Their is no question here, reason by definition is the tool or method we use to validate anything therefore this question "what validates reason?" is just pure nonsense.
"Saying;"but you are also using reason" is not evidence." I am just throwing your own ridiculous reasoning back at you and I don't accept that your reasoning here is valid.
"So present your case in clear premise/conclusion." See my response here to your first point.
"Well said. Intuition, Observation, Experience, Instinct etc are all valid means to judge whether something is reasonable (Even if not exactly accurate)." I already answered that in my very first post here, that if any other method than reason is valid, since it reason that has come to that conclusion it is still reason which is foremost.
"2. Second where is the circular logic? " I did not say your logic is circular I said it is self refuting. Your claim "reason cannot prove itself" means either 1) This statement is true (which it cannot be because it refutes itself, 2) The statement is false (which it is) which means reason can prove itself.
" The three criteria you had given were not about "the totality of all that exists" but in defining a 'thing'." A "mathematical infinite" is not all that exists (which is what I mean when I say infinite).
" But it is nothing more than your opinion. " You are saying something can be "non contingent" (not dependent on anything for its existence) which is the same as saying it exists independently of existence – which is absurd.
"But according to you the Universe isn't a thing. You forgot?" My definition of universe is "the totality of all that that exists" so if you their was an apple and the universe you are saying "the apple and everything that is not that apple".
"The point wasn't about the Universe but about existence of a single element in a defined Universe." Its not possible for just 1 thing to exist (and I told you why because a thing by definition is finite, bounded and recognizable and falls short of being the totality of all that exists.)
"Those aren't conditions but other matters." An apple could not exist without oxygen, water, sunlight etc so they are clearly not "other matters".
"Apparently this branch of knowledge is superior than Science based on empirical evidence!! " Asking what the specific causes of life was is a question for the scientists and not philosophers.
"Yes even thats a Theist position, that nature is God " That's a PANTHEIST position, its not a position of classical theism which believes "God" is some kind of super being with human (or at least human like) qualities which takes a personal interest in humanity. (And such a being is definitely not nature).
"Magic or no magic, it clearly means chuck is there. Chuck proves his existence by his/her mere presence." That all it proves, not that chuck is the result of supernatural creation from a God man or some such nonsense.
"'No chuck' to 'Chuck' is a transformation, a step happened that distinguishes No Chuck from Chuck." Yes its just a change in already existing material, what is your point?
"Like I said there is no material difference between a just dead cow and a living one." Obviously their will be a material difference (since "life" is a function of the matter).
"Yes God is self-determined. So? " The All is self-determined. So?
"That is just an opinion, a poetic opinion if that satisfies your ego" If an omniscient being existed (which could know and measure with absolute perfection) every single thing in existence it would know exactly what would happen in the future. But an omniscient being is logically impossible so no conscious being could know, but still the universe determines the future even if we cannot predict it.
"Consider a natural death." Everything that happens in nature is "natural" , so a bullet in the brain is just as natural as any so called "natural death".
XYZ,
"THE BACKWARD PEOPLE WERE FOOLED AND CONVERTED BY CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES–".
You have not explained what you mean by 'fooled'. But note that one major difference between Christianity and other religions is that nobody is regarded as 'backward'. That is why there is no social stratification in Christianity. The Holy Bible says that there is neither free born nor slave. We are all equal before God. Jesus died to save all of humanity irrespective of race or social class.
The Christian missionaries brought western education which is relevant and pivotal to the present age. It liberates the people from their 'backwardness' and gives them a greater stake in the affairs of their countries. That was why an 'untouchable' could become the President of India which has a very strong caste system. Such development was unthinkable and has certainly not gone down well in some quarters.
@Phoenix,
Well said. Intuition, Observation, Experience, Instinct etc are all valid means to judge whether something is reasonable (Even if not exactly accurate).
By definition their is nothing else we use (since reason is the method used to determine if anything is true or not).// http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/2921…
There is intuition,the acquisition of knowledge that does not require the use of logic.Then there's also the inductive method that science use to produce contingent information which may be subjected to change as new data is discovered.As opposed to deductive reasoning/logic which leads to neccessary truths.
==
What paradox? You are the one in a paradox you claim 1) Reason can't validate itself but yet you use reason to come to this conclusion so this view is definitely false (since it is self refuting). //
I'll break it down for you point by point:
1.Circular reasoning/self-reference are all paradoxes that begs the question.In other word's,they require independent evidence for it's support.So where's your evidence.Saying;"but you are also using reason" is not evidence.You have made a claim,now back it up.
2.Usually when dealing with atheists,i demand only empirical evidence because that's the criterion they demand from others,even though that demand is irrational.But for you,I'll settle with a sound deductive argument in this case.So present your case in clear premise/conclusion.
@Mystical
//Basically what you are doing is trying to reason against reason ("its circular reasoning") which is ridiculous. //
1. So you agree that circular reasoning is ridiculous!! Elsewhere you seemed to be OK with it!!!
2. Second where is the circular logic?
3. I am using your notion of 'using reason' because you didn't have any answer my version of observation based logical conundrum in following reason, the Liar's paradox that I alluded to in my very first response. As I said in my last response I am using 'your language'.
//Its means it has an identity (A=A) and can only be that thing and not simultaneously some other thing. //
Thats again not knowledge based on definition but definition based on knowledge!!
//Mathematical concepts are not "the totality of all that exists". //
Completely foolish. The three criteria you had given were not about "the totality of all that exists" but in defining a 'thing'. Do you even remember the garbage that you post?
//Its existed in every moment of time (even if that didn't exist "before" the so called big bang.) //
There is no 'before' since time ceases to exist at the Big Bang singularity. In other words Singularity breaks the time as a measurement device.
//Which is not possible, so this concept of "non-contingent" can be dismissed out of hand.//
Which you haven't said why logically isn't possible. You are just using different phrases to state the same thing that everything is contingent. But it is nothing more than your opinion.
//You admit that you would have to be something "other" than the apple then?//
But according to you the Universe isn't a thing. You forgot? The point wasn't about the Universe but about existence of a single element in a defined Universe. Since that is clearly possible your statement that 'A' depends on 'Not A' for its existence is not tenable logically.
//You admit "the skin" is part of the apple, and for a thing to exist it needs parts and for those parts to arranged in a certain way or in other words its dependent on "other" things/conditions/causes//
You haven't read the Law of identity properly. Otherwise you wouldn't have made such a foolish statement.
//"Which conditions?" All the conditions necessary for the existence of an apple (oxygen, water, sunlight etc.) //
Those aren't conditions but other matters. You clearly don't understand what a thought experiment is.
//"What is that step? " Ask the scientists who study such things if your interested.//
Ha ha. What is the Philosopher saying. Apparently this branch of knowledge is superior than Science based on empirical evidence!!
//If by "God" in this this case they mean "all the causes responsible for life" then I have problem with such a definition since such a "God" is synonymous with "nature" or "universe".//
Yes even thats a Theist position, that nature is God:-).
//Which doesn't mean Chuck was caused by a magic man in the sky with a divine plan for chucks life (and indeed his eternal soul).//
Magic or no magic, it clearly means chuck is there. Chuck proves his existence by his/her mere presence. 'No chuck' to 'Chuck' is a transformation, a step happened that distinguishes No Chuck from Chuck. Like I said there is no material difference between a just dead cow and a living one.
//I say God -which I usually call "The All" – determines itself (since their is nothing "other" which could determine it.) //
Yes God is self-determined. So?
//but in some poetic sense the universe "knows" what exactly is going to happen in the future//
That is just an opinion, a poetic opinion if that satisfies your ego:-).
//"The question is what separates these two states in terms of actual material difference." Whatever causes the death, like a bullet in the brain for example.//
Consider a natural death.
"If reasoning against reason seems ridiculous to you then isn't it self-evident? " Basically what you are doing is trying to reason against reason ("its circular reasoning") which is ridiculous.
"that knowledge based on 'definition' (whatever that is, you are yet to come clean on it)" Its means it has an identity (A=A) and can only be that thing and not simultaneously some other thing.
" How would you refute that my example doesn't follow the 3 criteria you had set? " Mathematical concepts are not "the totality of all that exists".
"Second 'every-when' is a poorly understood concept. If you agree with the Big Bang Theory then the material Universe has a clear cut start of expansion and thus causal chains. Beyond the Big Bang Singularity there was no time." Its existed in every moment of time (even if that didn't exist "before" the so called big bang.)
" It is defined as something that isn't caused by anything, hence non-contingent." Which is not possible, so this concept of "non-contingent" can be dismissed out of hand. The only "thing" that isn't caused is the all itself (since their nothing but the all).
"There would be the Universe AND the apple. " You admit that you would have to be something "other" than the apple then? I.e "The universe" or in other words "everything that is not the apple".
"In fact it is so just because it is a part of the apple AND FORMS ITS SURFACE!! " You admit "the skin" is part of the apple, and for a thing to exist it needs parts and for those parts to arranged in a certain way or in other words its dependent on "other" things/conditions/causes.
"Which conditions?" All the conditions necessary for the existence of an apple (oxygen, water, sunlight etc.)
"How do you know?" Because the all is not a particular thing distinct from everything else (because if was it would not be "the All".)
"What is that step? " Ask the scientists who study such things if your interested.
"Theist describe this 'is whatever caused it' as God. How is your phrase any better than the replacement word? " If by "God" in this this case they mean "all the causes responsible for life" then I have problem with such a definition since such a "God" is synonymous with "nature" or "universe".
"That something might have caused chuck to be here. " Which doesn't mean Chuck was caused by a magic man in the sky with a divine plan for chucks life (and indeed his eternal soul).
"Now you are changing stance. " No I am not, Determinism says the present state of the universe is the result of the past moment, if this is true (which it is) it means everything happens by necessity and neither "luck" or "design" is the case. However we can also say from our view as finite beings things happen by "chance".
"The Theist believes that the states of the Universe, which you say determines everything, is determined by a timeless, scale-less, uncaused entity that they call God." I say God -which I usually call "The All" – determines itself (since their is nothing "other" which could determine it.)
"What you are saying is the classical notion of Determinism long thrown out of contention. " No one ever believed that a finite being could know everything about the universe, or that we can predict the future perfectly but in some poetic sense the universe "knows" what exactly is going to happen in the future.
"The question is what separates these two states in terms of actual material difference." Whatever causes the death, like a bullet in the brain for example.
"In other words reason validates reason." Tell me what else we could use to validate (or invalidate) reason? By definition their is nothing else we use (since reason is the method used to determine if anything is true or not).
"So we're back to square one and you're still trapped in a paradox with no way out. " What paradox? You are the one in a paradox you claim 1) Reason can't validate itself but yet you use reason to come to this conclusion so this view is definitely false (since it is self refuting).
The backward classes people were fooled and converted by Christian missionaries funded by militant church institutions of Europe and USA.
["A person CANNOT be content UNTIL he Gives….."]
I doubt that but I am also aware that the human mind is very complex, hence I am not going to challenge your claim. The readers are welcome to practice Giving and see if contentment begins to take root in them.
Now even if your claim turns out to be 100 percent true, it would still not change the fact that Nishkam Seva (Selfless service) is already a part of Hinduism. The Hindu books do not mention contentment in the context of selfless service. 'Contentment' is something that I personally deduced from my own experiences, observations, and readings. It is quite possible that the pundits who introduced this concept believed the same as what you wrote regarding contentment.
Having said that, IMO it does not really matter how the person achieves contentment. What matters is that s/he does achieve it because unless s/he does, there can be no moving into the next stage of spirituality!
—————-
["These other Myths explained FULLY the Truths, yet they are dead. Why? Because their time had passed and they were no longer sufficient to progress mankind's Mind. Hinduism is of this retort."]
First of all, to say that "the myth is dead" is incorrect understanding. Anything that explains the truth, and is still available to anyone who is curious, is NOT dead. The correct understanding is that "the knowledge of that myth /story is lost."
People may end up losing knowledge available in Hinduism too, but the reason for this loss would not be that "their time has passed". The reason would be apathy.
—————
["How do you Know that I am not in complete favor with God Now by Giving these messages? Perhaps that IS my reason for Now!?"]
Yes, THAT is the reason! I do not know much about Christianity, but I have read enough comments posted by Christians that I can now tell what they are really up to! Content people do a variety of things, but Christians would only be seen zealously indulging in these activities – 1) To bring people to Jesus (that is, to convert them), 2) To make sure they remain Christians no matter what they go through in life, even if they die, and 3) Oppose abortion!
What motivates them to indulge in these activities? Because they are required to do all this in Christianity, and by doing this they hope to get God's favor! Christianity doesn't say much about protecting the converted from sufferings, so all that the victims get is lip-service. It is too bad that you Christians of Nigeria are suffering and getting mass-murdered every other day, but don't you do anything that will shake the favor that I have built with God.
I am sorry Jesus, but you are NOT content! Maybe it is because you have never 'Given'! All your giving was nothing but a hollow ritual! You were doing business. You were 'giving' the message of Jesus, and in return you were TAKING Attaboy's from God. You didn't give anything that the Bible doesn't say will get you God's favor. You were hungry for Attaboy's. That is NOT called being content.
["You see KTE, we are to Give where we are Led to Give."]
This is just a convenient excuse. If the Bible said "You will be in God's complete favor if you fight those who cause suffering to Christians in poor countries", you would be fighting for the Nigerian Christians with the same zeal as when you oppose abortion and/or spread the message of Jesus! But since the Bible doesn't say such a thing, it is NOT on the top of your list. You MAY get to it if chance leads you to it!
Sakat
You have earned Post Graduation in So called holiest religion Christianity. We Indians have to expose this religion and their prophet.
Jesus
I think you are far away from the REAL TRUTH. You must put away your bias and programming to progress. I wish you hope and God's Speed in your development. Bye.
First of all I did not say "reason proves reason", what I said is reason is the only method we have to validate anything. You cannot validate anything without reasoning about it. //
In other words reason validates reason.Same thing as reason proves reason.You're just playing with words.So we're back to square one and you're still trapped in a paradox with no way out.
The only way we can know if our "intuition" is correct is through reason.//
How can you as a materialist prove this?Put your argument in standard deductive form and let's evaluate it.After all,you did claim logic and evidence as your worldview.
@mystical,
//It it doesn't mean that it is wrong then it is not a fallacy.//
:-). Well circular reasoning is fallacious.
//According to your reasoning, reason cannot prove itself therefore your appeal to reason ("its circular reasoning") to invalidate reason is simply ridiculous//
I am just speaking your language. If reasoning against reason seems ridiculous to you then isn't it self-evident?
//"God" (as defined in theism) exists in people's imagination as a concept //
I was just arguing against your notion that knowledge based on 'definition' (whatever that is, you are yet to come clean on it) is good enough then so will be the concept of God, since at least one definition exist.
//That is not the context I am talking about//
Universes are always defined within a proper context.
//I mean the totality of all that exists. Not the totality of all numbers or some other codswallop//
Doesn't matter what you meant. It was MY EXAMPLE, using YOUR DEFINITION of a thing.
//It is a mathematical infinite, it is not however infinite in the way in which the all is infinite (in that the all exists everywhere and every-when) //
Doesn't matter whether it is Mathematical or not. In fact that was the whole point. I showed you that your definition of an 'existent thing' can take us to some such conclusion. How would you refute that my example doesn't follow the 3 criteria you had set?
Second 'every-when' is a poorly understood concept. If you agree with the Big Bang Theory then the material Universe has a clear cut start of expansion and thus causal chains. Beyond the Big Bang Singularity there was no time.
//"I said it is non-contingent thing. " Explain how that is possible.//
What happened to definitional knowledge? It is defined as something that isn't caused by anything, hence non-contingent. For a complete understanding of how Aquinas' goes about predicating it you may check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinque_viae
//"why do you assume that is unbounded? " Because their would be nothing but that apple//
There would be the Universe AND the apple. And the apple will have a boundary, its skin.
//Its not bounded by its own skin (since the skin is a part of the apple)//
It will be. In fact it is so just because it is a part of the apple AND FORMS ITS SURFACE!!
//Its boundaries existence is dependent on conditions. //
Which is just rephrasing your old claim. Which conditions?
//Its not possible because it would no longer have a boundary and no longer be recognizable (or in other words it would cease to exist).//
Which completes your circular reasoning. Point proven.
//such an entity is not the all. //
How do you know?
//Things don't magically "transform" their is a step by step causal process//
I said as much. So there is a step where a non-animate collection of matter becomes animated. What is that step?
//Second whatever caused it is whatever caused it//
So. Theist describe this 'is whatever caused it' as God. How is your phrase any better than the replacement word?
//Their was no chuck and then their was chuck, what is your point here? //
That something might have caused chuck to be here.
//I don't believe in any "luck theory".//
You have said exactly that, that the life on Earth, despite hostile environs, happened just out of pure luck. Now you are changing stance.
//I believe the state of the universe determines everything that happens. //
So it is only your believe. The Theist believes that the states of the Universe, which you say determines everything, is determined by a timeless, scale-less, uncaused entity that they call God.
//but poetically speaking if we could know everything about the universe, we would know exactly what is going to happen//
What you are saying is the classical notion of Determinism long thrown out of contention.
//The universe is constrained by the laws that govern it. //
State a few.
//The "condition of that particular collection of matter" tells you whether it is "dead" or "alive" so this answers your question. //
That doesn't answer anything. The 'condition' that you talk about is not a matter. It is a state and a notion associated with that state, calling one death and the other live. The question is what separates these two states in terms of actual material difference.
@ Sakat
I'm one of those guys who believes Jesus was a made up character.There was no Jesus.They added different stories from different religions,sects and from natives(they call them Pagans which is abusive word and insulting natives) to tell the story of Jesus.
As for Indic Dharmic traditions I'm all for it, doesn't matter which one you choose whether it is Hindu,Buddhist,Jain or Sikh.All are part of Sanaathana Dharma.Only thing we have to worry about is some of the aspects of religious beliefs of these Dharmic traditions.Those have to be weeded out.
SwaDharme Nidhanam Shreyaha.
ParaDharmo Bhayamahaha.
"According to the above definition,your statement that "only reason proves reason" is a paradox." First of all I did not say "reason proves reason", what I said is reason is the only method we have to validate anything. You cannot validate anything without reasoning about it.
"We use our intuition." The only way we can know if our "intuition" is correct is through reason.
Supriya – I believe that you are Not Ready for the Truths of this modern day. You may never be ready. You must put away your bias and programming to progress. I wish you hope and God's Speed in your development.
KTE – you still do not understand. A person CANNOT be content UNTIL he Gives. You have it backwards. That is one of the main problems with the Hindu Mind. It is why Hinduism is dead. Once again the Truths can never die ONLY the clothing is replaced. Greek, Egyptian, Aztec, etc Mythologies have died out and Hinduism is the same. Hindu's DO NOT have the exclusive rights to the Truths of God. These other Myths explained FULLY the Truths, yet they are dead. Why? Because their time had passed and they were no longer sufficient to progress mankind's Mind. Hinduism is of this retort. The supremacy and elitism has also killed Hinduism. It is what Kills ALL Myths. You see everything born also has its seed of destruction born with it. Hinduism cannot live forever. Everything transforms (dies) KTE.
Also KTE, there is no need to be worried about insulting me. I Take no offense to anything someone says. Even if they are being offensive! Our words reveal our Hearts. It only helps me in our concourse. So please, in the ebb and flow of these conversations, feel free to say what is Honestly on your Mind. I promise I will not waste my time or yours with any negative emotions.
You will need to grow in your thinking if you wish to keep up with me. You have asked a specific question about the Christians in Nigeria and what have I or other Christians have "Given" to help them?? The answer is what makes you think we should only give to Christians? Do you only Give to Hindu's? Also, who are you to ask what any person should Give to fulfill their roles in this life. How do you Know that I am not in complete favor with God Now by Giving these messages? Perhaps that IS my reason for Now!? Here is what I would suggest KTE. You seem to be concerned about these killings and atrocities, What have you Given to help out? Are you full of Elitism and supremacy that you think you do NOT need to Give to the poor Christians in Nigeria? How about the Christians in India? You see KTE, we are to Give where we are Led to Give. Are you Led to Give to those Christians in Nigeria? One would think so, since you brought it up. No?
I wish for you a successful life. Do you have any other points. One Rule that might help. Let's dispense with the questions. Give me your thoughts about Truth and any examples or allegories that may enlighten. This will help to move us along. I wish for you to stretch your Mind beyond Matter.
@Anand
/They say father sent Jesus to pay for the sins of people.Is Jesus some psychopath or what to pay for others sins.If I commit a crime will Jesus go to jail instead of me.I would be more than happy if he pays for my sins.I would be the happiest man in the world./
Perhaps, in the whole history of the popes, only one pope was honest. This pope was Pope Leo the Tenth in the sixteenth century. He is reported to have said, "It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
They have been talking about truth, but they have been hiding immensely important things. They have changed all the gospels, they have edited everything that was going to be difficult for them to argue for, to defend.In the oldest versions of the gospels, you will be surprised to know, Judas was one of Jesus Christ's brothers. He had two brothers and two sisters , but to keep Jesus' mother, Mary, without sin, they have dropped those daughters and those brothers completely. Either they would have had to bring the Holy Ghost five times — that would be too tiring for the Holy Ghost, and it is a remote-control operation or they would have had to accept that Mary gave birth from Joseph, her legal husband; that this Holy Ghost is illegal, and that Jesus is an illegitimate child.Why had God chosen Mary to give birth to his only begotten son? , because she was without sin. It means that on the whole earth there was no other virgin girl; only Mary was virgin. It is such a condemnation of the whole of humanity.They don't mention in the gospels that Judas was Jesus' brother. And one thing is certain: they go on condemning Judas, that he betrayed Jesus for thirty silver pieces — but in the gospels themselves there is not a single word of condemnation of Judas.
My own understanding is that he never betrayed Jesus. It was Jesus himself, in his fanatical hallucination. Judas was trying to convince him, "Don't go at this moment into Jerusalem. It is the Jewish holiday, and this is the time of year when people are crucified. You will be caught, there are rumors all around. It is better not to go to Jerusalem at this moment. Let this festival pass, then you can go."But Jesus was absolutely fanatical. He said, "Don't you trust in God? This is a chance for the Jews to know that I am the only begotten son of God. Let them crucify me, and God will do a miracle!"
And followers had not been told that Judas was so sad and sorry when Jesus was crucified that the next day he committed suicide, hanging himself from a tree.But Christians will not talk about the truth. They have to throw the responsibility on someone, but without any evidence from ancient scriptures … It is one of the most poisonous religions.
It says that one of the pillars of Christianity is forgiveness. It looks beautiful when you hear the word `forgiveness', but the implications are very evil.
A man rapes a woman. The man will be forgiven by God, but what about the woman? The criminal is forgiven, what about the victim? There is not a single mention that the victim will be rewarded or anything.
A man murders, and he simply goes to the priest and confesses, and the priest gives him a simple method, so cheap: "You have murdered a man. Put ten dollars in the charity box and say five Hail Marys, and your sin is forgiven. God is compassionate."
But what about the murdered? Nobody has asked the question to the Christians, "What about the murdered? What is God going to do with the murdered, the raped woman, the molested child?"
And, strangely enough, the same man will commit another murder, because now he is fresh, clear; the old murder is erased, forgiven for ten dollars and five Hail Marys. Now he can commit another murder, he can commit another rape. All he needs is to go and confess to the priest and give some money, and the priest will give him a prayer to do five or ten times.
There is no mention of the person who has been committing crime after crime. He is not being punished, he is being continuously forgiven. And all those people who have suffered from this man's crimes, there is not a single mention of them in the whole Christian religion. It seems God is in favor of criminals, but not in favor of the victims.Now look again at the idea of forgiveness, and you will see that it is ugly.In other religions, Jainism, Buddhism, there is no God — and it is good that there is no God. Nobody can forgive, so there is no question of forgiveness. These religions are more scientific. Every action will have its reaction, nobody can prevent it. You put your hand in the fire and you will be burnt. No God can prevent it. You rape a woman and you will suffer a deep wound of guilt. You may go mad, but you will have to suffer. Only suffering will cleanse you, not forgiveness.
Because it is circular doesn't mean it is wrong (indeed your own logic confirms this since according to you reason can't prove itself and needs something else to prove it.) Reason by definition is the only thing we can use to determine if something is reasonable.//
Let me first give you the definition of self-reference: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/self-reference/
In the context of language, self-reference is used to denote a statement that refers to itself or its own referent.
According to the above definition,your statement that "only reason proves reason" is a paradox.And all paradoxes lead to a contradiction.
You also said:What else could could we use to determine if reason is reasonable, stupidity? What you are arguing here is ridiculous.//
We use our intuition.It's incredible that your reasoning lead you to conclude "stupidity" and nothing more.
Dear Mr. Jesus , you keep on repeating that Hinduism is like Greek & Egyptian Mythology.
Is the Greek & Egyptian on any thing of that sort .. based on something like the Vedas or Upanishads of Hindus?.
No ! , so stop repeating that nonsense . You claim that you have studied Hinduism .
You are trying to bluff who ?
After Islam it is the demise of Christianity ,it is already rotting from its head .
"I just saw you an example of an Universe with finite number of things, even say '1'. " Since a thing is limited and bounded (by definition) a universe with just 1 thing is not logically possible.
"In this example if the result is caused by something then what is it that cause which transformed a given arrangement of matter into another animate arrangement?" Things don't magically "transform" their is a step by step causal process. Second whatever caused it is whatever caused it (I believe the scientists have theories).
"After all it can be assumed that first there was no life and then there was life. " Their was no chuck and then their was chuck, what is your point here?
"You know the weakness of your earlier subscription to the 'luck theory' " I don't believe in any "luck theory". I believe the state of the universe determines everything that happens.
"1. What after all is "the view of the All"?" How do even know such a view exists?" The All doesn't have a view (since its not a conscious being) but poetically speaking if we could know everything about the universe, we would know exactly what is going to happen and we would see everything that happens "has" to happen.
"If the Universe is indeed constrained to happen the way it evolved out how can you avoid a cause stipulating this constraint (And hence the question of fine tuning which you were protesting against). " The universe is constrained by the laws that govern it.
"That is the condition that particular collection of matter is. That does not tell us the difference in matter." The "condition of that particular collection of matter" tells you whether it is "dead" or "alive" so this answers your question.
" Which is that there are things that reason alone can't comprehend." All that means is that their are things reason can't comprehend (which itself is known by reason), not that their is something other than reason which we could use to comprehend.
"It only means that it takes us to a fallacy." It it doesn't mean that it is wrong then it is not a fallacy.
"Just as you use my own negative proof as a circular reasoning when it is not. " According to your reasoning, reason cannot prove itself therefore your appeal to reason ("its circular reasoning") to invalidate reason is simply ridiculous.
"If mere definition is enough then God exist, because there is at least one definition of God." "God" (as defined in theism) exists in people's imagination as a concept just like "superman" exists in a fictional universe, that is the only way in which God exists.
"It is the totality of all that exists in the context of its definition, i.e. Real Numbers. " That is not the context I am talking about. I mean the totality of all that exists. Not the totality of all numbers or some other codswallop.
"By the way it clearly is an infinite set. If it is not infinite then you clearly should be able to count out all that it comprises of. " It is a mathematical infinite, it is not however infinite in the way in which the all is infinite (in that the all exists everywhere and every-when)
"I said it is non-contingent thing. " Explain how that is possible.
"why do you assume that is unbounded? " Because their would be nothing but that apple.
"Third an apple is bounded by its own skin," Its not bounded by its own skin (since the skin is a part of the apple).
" its boundary it doesn't need yet another object to be bounded against, like all objects with surfaces. " Its boundaries existence is dependent on conditions.
"Fourth this was a thought experiment to just proof that in any set of objects, one object doesn't depend on any other object. " Objects depend on conditions.
". An object only exists only because another object exist. " Objects existence is dependent on conditions yes.
"What happens if we subsume/eject all the other objects? It is not possible. " Its not possible because it would no longer have a boundary and no longer be recognizable (or in other words it would cease to exist).
"The Dogma that you won't submit yourself to a Theist view even if it takes you to resort to circular reasonings." You haven't even explained this "theistic view".
"or even if you haven't read the material referenced. Etc etc. " You mentioned Aquinas if you think his arguments are brilliant that you should be able to share them or at least put a link to his work.
" If a Theist claims that God is the 'All' then how does it violate your principle that the 'All' is not a material thing?" Theists believe God is a personal being (they prey to it, believe in takes a interest in them, punishes and rewards humanity etc), such an entity is not the all.
"I mean no Theist claims that the God is a material thing!!!" They claim their God is a personal, conscious being such a thing is not the All.
Jesus
Answer my simple questions.1] What do you mean by enlightenment and how do you attain it ?
//Modern man does not need Shiva to explain the Natural Phenomenon of its cycle.you attain it?//
Shiva/Mahadev has explained the Natural phenomenon of its cycle( ie one Brahma day and one Brahma night).
Your Jesus didnt know about natural phenomenon of its cycle. Tell me who was ignorant ? Mahadev or Jesus ?
Sam Sudhi
You are absolutely right. Jesus(Indian protestant christian) knows nothing about Hinduism. He is biased and prejudiced.
Many influential westerners are interested in our philosophies. Christianity has failed to answer their queries. Many physicist and scientist believe that the universe is an illusion. Prophet Jesus didnt know this truth therefore he said believers will enjoy in heaven and non believers will suffer in hell. Our Rishis said Brahma satyam, Jagat mithyam.It means God is the only truth and the universe which we see around is an illusion. Therefore Nishkam Karma has prime importance in our philosophies.
I only had two questions and they were sincere. Thank you for answering them. The message of Jesus, as you explained, is very good and everyone should ponder upon it seriously. This message already exists in Hindu thought (selfless service), or it can be easily deduced from available knowledge. However, if someone fails to come across Nishkam Seva in Hinduism, or has difficult time understanding what it is all about, s/he should accept your explanation as something valuable available from Christianity.
Now do not take this as offense but your comment shows that there are some things about human psychology that you do not understand. (It does not matter if that human is a 'modern' human or medieval or even a future human). How can you combine science and spirit when you do not fully understand the human mind? You have posted this comment before and I replied to it. I said that only content people can *truly* give. For all others, this 'giving' is nothing but a hollow ritual. There are lots of Christians who convert people to Christianity and think that they are "giving" the message of Jesus to others, when what they have really done is satisfied themselves! What they do is TAKE (the satisfaction of having converted someone), yet they live in the delusion that they have "given". They do this because they are not content, and without contentment there can be no giving!
—————–
["……….. and even then I will Give."]
Well, thank you for giving me the message of Jesus and it is indeed a great message for humans! Now I do have a question for you- Every other day Jihadwatch reports that a bomb exploded in a church in Nigeria, or that a village of Christians was attacked and dozens killed. I have never counted but I bet that some 100 such attacks happened in that country in the last two years! My question is- What have you or the Church that you belong to, *given* to those Christians so that they no longer have to suffer?
KTE – you have asked many questions. Not sure you are being sincere or honest, but I will offer up the benefit of the doubt and give you my perspective until I discover that you are not being honest and even then I will Give. Your words will enlighten soon enough. I am not sure I may change your mind or even provide You with anything of value nor do I care, but I will attempt to "explain" Truth.
Jesus' message is simple. It is to Love. What is to Love? Love is to Give. What is to Give? To Give is like the ocean giving of its whole self to every rain drop without care to one or all rain drops because all rain drops are of the ocean. They are born form the ocean, will be distinguished from the ocean and will return to the ocean. That is Jesus' simple message today. What would it mean to your life.? Do you ever hold back from selfishness? Do you ever act in malice? Are you ever greedy? Do you ever plot to win over another to their doom or their suffering? Then in these times, you are NOT Loving, because you are looking to Take and NOT Give. In these times you are NOT in step with the Universe and suffering is your reward. You see KTE does the sun take anything away? Or does all it do is Give? That is what God is? All God does is Give, therefore, all He does is Love. Jesus' message is to be like Our Father God and that we are required to Give at ALL times. Jesus' life was an example to the people of that time to GIVE. He accomplished this by GIVING his Life. That was his message. Science has proven that everything gives to everything in all the Universe. You see KTE if we are not Giving we are dying. Matter of Fact Science has shown that evolution does not really exists but what, in fact, is happening is Transformation from one thing to another. This is Jesus' message that we are ALL Transforming to something else. That is the message of his resurrection. Simple No? Did you gain anything from these words or did your walls all come up in defense to the attack of your beliefs? I would sincerely like to know.
@mystical
//"This implies you agree that there are things that reason alone can't comprehend." Not it doesn't. I meant to say their may be some things we don't know (or cannot know) or cognitively understand.//
If we see beyond your gibberish what you are basically saying is same that I pointed out. Which is that there are things that reason alone can't comprehend. Simple :-). Using a different set of phrases like "not cognitively understand" or "cannot know" boils down to same conclusion.
//Because it is circular doesn't mean it is wrong//
It only means that it takes us to a fallacy. Just as you use my own negative proof as a circular reasoning when it is not.
//Its not empirical knowledge I have a definition of a "rock" therefore by definition a rock can only be a rock.//
If mere definition is enough then God exist, because there is at least one definition of God.
//Answer me is your mathematical set of Real Numbers the totality of all that exists? Not it is not, therefore it is not infinite, you don't even understand the concept of "the All" that I talk about. //
It is the totality of all that exists in the context of its definition, i.e. Real Numbers. By the way it clearly is an infinite set. If it is not infinite then you clearly should be able to count out all that it comprises of.
//Okay then tell me how a finite particular and bounded thing could be infinite? By definition it cannot be //
So now you have switched from speaking non-sense to sophism:-). I never said a 'finite' thing is infinite. You gave me a definition of what you call a thing, namely: 1) Its own boundaries 2) Its own particular qualities and attributes and 3) Be recognizable and distinct from everything else in existence; and I showed you the example of a mathematical set that satisfies each of these constraint. The problem is clearly with your definition. Since a set is just a concept and it really doesn't exist but can be proven to be a 'thing' as per your definition then obviously your definition is wrong. This is simple logic and I didn't comprehend would be so difficult to drill through your mind.
//Because a finite things existence depends on that which it is not. //
Non-sense. You don't have a logical proof of that. Second I didn't say it is a finite thing, I said it is non-contingent thing.
//Okay I will make an example so you easily understand my point. Conceive of an apple and nothing but that apple (an "unbounded apple"), firstly such an apple can't exist because an apple (like everything else) is a finite (bounded) thing. o such an apple (or anything else) has to be bounded by something (that which it is not)//
Tch tch. You are still learning. First if there is only one apple, why do you assume that is unbounded? Second you are assuming the conclusion. Third an apple is bounded by its own skin, its boundary it doesn't need yet another object to be bounded against, like all objects with surfaces. Fourth this was a thought experiment to just proof that in any set of objects, one object doesn't depend on any other object.
So far you are only using circular arguments. Sample these:
1. An object only exists only because another object exist.
2. Why does the existence of one depend on another when Law of Identity doesn't talk about any such dependency? Because obects are finite.
3. So even if we take a finite object, how does its existence depend on another object? What happens if we subsume/eject all the other objects? It is not possible.
4. Why is it not possible? If all other objects get ejected from this Universe this object will cease to Exist.
5. What!! Why? Because an object only exists because other objects exist :-).
//What "dogma"?//
The Dogma that you won't submit yourself to a Theist view even if it takes you to resort to circular reasonings. Or even if you haven't read the material referenced. Etc etc.
//The "dogma" that the totality of all that exists (or just "the all") is itself not a particular thing (since it is the totality of all things)?//
Now where did that came from? If a Theist claims that God is the 'All' then how does it violate your principle that the 'All' is not a material thing? I mean no Theist claims that the God is a material thing!!!
@mystical,
//It would if those 2 apples where the only things that existed (as specified by you). //
You are not reading properly. When I first gave these example I did say take a Universe with 2 objects.
//Explain how a thing can exist separately to everything else in existence, don't try to be smart with mathematics or some other nonsense just explain that.//
Ever heard something called burden of proof? YOU made the claim, namely : "Their is the fact its not everything and as a result its existence depends on "Not A"". It was for you to prove how the statement before 'and' implies the later part. Merely rhetoric doesn't prove anything. I just saw you an example of an Universe with finite number of things, even say '1'.
//There is a step that requires a particular arrangement of matter (using your words) transform into another (even if through Evolution) so that we can differentiate between what was inanimate and is animate now. " It answers the question, "life" is a function of the matter it comes into existence through cause and effect their is nothing magical about it. //
It doesn't. In this example if the result is caused by something then what is it that cause which transformed a given arrangement of matter into another animate arrangement? After all it can be assumed that first there was no life and then there was life.
//Their is no proof of any "God". //
Thats pretty dogmatic. Have you read the work I referred you to? There are reasonings there which might interest you.
//From our view as finite beings we can certainly say it was "luck" but from the view of the All it wasn't luck and even more given the state of the universe it "had" to happen, their was no "chance" involved. //
Now that is a complete somersault. You know the weakness of your earlier subscription to the 'luck theory' so you are using rhetoric and sophism.
1. What after all is "the view of the All"? How do even know such a view exists? 2. If the Universe is indeed constrained to happen the way it evolved out how can you avoid a cause stipulating this constraint (And hence the question of fine tuning which you were protesting against).
//Its bodily functions (necessary for it to live) have stopped (i.e it is dead). //
That is the condition that particular collection of matter is. That does not tell us the difference in matter. Don't utter foolish tautologies.
@ Jesus
Except Jesus every one is a sinner.World came into existence 6000 years ago.Spanish Inquisition,Portuguese Inquisition of Goa(India),etc are gifts of Christianity.Even as of today Evangelists come to my country to harvest souls luring with money and falsification of my country's history and legacies.
I dare every Christian to say and practice Conversion should to be stopped banned.Do Pope has the guts to announce it.Oh I forgot St.Francis resigned due to pedophilia acts of his Vatican Bishops,Padre,etc.And recently I heard some money laundering cases are going on regarding Vatican Church Banks?
As a follower of Hindu Dharma I can say we don't have Conversion by any means good or bad.
And talking about science:What is the highest number that was written by anyone in the world(except India) 1000 years ago.Answer that first we can talk about science later.The Highest number other than Infinity(we invented and used infinity in calculations) is 155 trillion and this is more than 2000 years ago.
They say father sent Jesus to pay for the sins of people.Is Jesus some psychopath or what to pay for others sins.If I commit a crime will Jesus go to jail instead of me.I would be more than happy if he pays for my sins.I would be the happiest man in the world.
And some dumb ignorants bring caste into the picture.First the word caste itself is not Indian. The Indian society was divided into VarnAshrama, which were 4. Brahmin(knowledge),Kshatriya(warrior),Vysya(Merchant) and Shudra(less skilled labour) and they are decided by one's deeds.Anyone can become a Brahmin,Kshatriya,etc. For example the Compiler of Vedas Maharshi Vyasa was a Shudra which the so called seculars' term them as Dalit and Dalit is not a Indian word.He became Brahmin.He has also written MahaBharata and Gita which most of Hindus follows.Ramayana was written by Maharshi Valmiki who too was a Shudra.The poet of poets Kalidasa was a Shudra but we respect him as a Brahmin because of his grip in knowledge and poetry.Chandra Gupta Maurya a Shudra became an Emperor of India i.e.a Kshatriya form.The list goes on.
This VarnAshrama went through sociological changes and became your so called Caste system i.e. by birth ones' caste decided.The reason of this change is as follows:The sons and daughters of this VarnAshrama society were getting married to their respective Varna i.e. a Brahmin to Brahmin,A Kshatriya to Kshatriya,etc. As it seemed beneficial to both the parties it is continued.Now the so called caste system has no relevancy.
And this what a Hindu says:
I am a Brahmin in knowledge… I am a Kshatriye in Valour, …I am a Vaisya in Business,… I am a Shudra in Service…. I am a Hindu.
Part 2
"First it is YOUR definition. The logical flaw of which has been pointed above." Okay then tell me how a finite particular and bounded thing could be infinite? By definition it cannot be, regardless of how much you repeat your nonsense.
"Second, even if we accept this definition, it still doesn't prove why a non-contingent thing is logically impossible. " Because a finite things existence depends on that which it is not.
" Take two apples and eat one. " So you believe that is such a thing as an "unbounded apple" Okay I will make an example so you easily understand my point. Conceive of an apple and nothing but that apple (an "unbounded apple"), firstly such an apple can't exist because an apple (like everything else) is a finite (bounded) thing. So such an apple (or anything else) has to be bounded by something (that which it is not), if is was not bounded it would be the all and not any particular thing. Since a thing cannot exist without that "which it is not" it is logically dependent on it. If you still don't agree then you have to explain how a thing can exist independently of everything else in the universe. (Which is the same as saying it exists independently of existence.)
"That’s the last resort for a person who can't refute or affirm his own stand. You have some dogma and you aren't logically coherent with that dogma. It wasn't difficult to see the logical pitfalls of your position." What "dogma"? The "dogma" that the totality of all that exists (or just "the all") is itself not a particular thing (since it is the totality of all things)? That is a logical fact not a dogma, God, afterlife, reincarnation, free will, inherent existence and "soul" – the kind of things you defend – are dogmas and nonsense.
Part 1
"This implies you agree that there are things that reason alone can't comprehend." Not it doesn't. I meant to say their may be some things we don't know (or cannot know) or cognitively understand. If so it would it just mean we cannot understand it, not that something other than reason could be used to comprehend something (since reason is the only tool we have to know anything).
"Q: How can you say something is reasonable? A: By using reason alone; what we get is a classic example of Circular Reasoning. " Because it is circular doesn't mean it is wrong (indeed your own logic confirms this since according to you reason can't prove itself and needs something else to prove it.) Reason by definition is the only thing we can use to determine if something is reasonable. What else could could we use to determine if reason is reasonable, stupidity? What you are arguing here is ridiculous.
"That is empirical knowledge, not a knowledge based on definition" Its not empirical knowledge I have a definition of a "rock" therefore by definition a rock can only be a rock.
"Now that’s a Straw Man. You gave me a definition and I showed you how that definition can be used to prove that [0, 1] is a thing, while clearly it isn't finite. Also it is not "All" it is but a subset of R, the set of all real numbers.. in fact it is a subset of infinitely many well defined sets [-1, 1], [0, 2], [-3, 3] etc. There is no doubt about it being bounded, identifiable and separable from other and there is no doubt about it being infinite." Answer me is your mathematical set of Real Numbers the totality of all that exists? Not it is not, therefore it is not infinite, you don't even understand the concept of "the All" that I talk about. This is why you think a personal being could be the All.
["I have not been clear to your Mind. I need you to put down your bias for awhile. I will attempt humbly to explain to you Truth."]
I am sorry but in the guise of explaining the "Truth", all you have done is repeated the same old tirade against Hinduism. You haven't told us what exactly the message of Jesus is, and exactly how it satisfies the 'modern man' in a way that Hinduism does not.
Please also tell us how is the 'modern man' different from earlier people besides the fact that s/he now possesses more and powerful tools to satisfy his/her hedonistic and animistic desires faster!
——————-
["The Hindu mythology (just like Greek or Egyptian Mythology) with all its God's are nothing more than masks covering or trying to explain Natural Phenomenon to the uninitiated Mind."]
You are basically right except that "mask" is an incorrect word to use. The correct word would be 'allegory'!
What is wrong with using allegories?
——————
["All your demons and God's are nothing more than fear mongering by the ruling class."]
It is not 'fear mongering'. The fears and insecurities are already there in the people! Sakat has already explained the importance of mythologies in his post. The pandits, if they are learnt, use the tales of demons and gods to get people rid themselves of their fears. What is wrong with that?
——————-
["Hindu's are leaving the Myths behind in droves."]
Many indeed are! They go to college, find out that all the gods and demons are nothing but 'mythology', and ditch their beliefs. Then they start seeing themselves as superior to the 'superstitious' Hindus. The end result: we have ended up with another class of elites who live in the delusion that they are superior.
It would be willful blindness on the part of any Hindu to say that his religion is free of faults. However, the wise thing to do is to identify those faults and get rid of them. To ditch the belief system altogether because of its faults, is like throwing the baby away with the dirty water.
——————-
["Not that Hinduism is bad or evil, only that its time is up."]
Its time is up, why? Because people have become too lazy to decipher and interpret the stories? The scientists have discovered that our brain uses a lot more energy when we put it to use. So the educated people have decided that it is better to conserve energy and simply watch TV. When we read stories we have to imagine images in our head, which uses up energy. To decipher and interpret the allegories cost even higher amounts of energy. OTOH when we watch TV we do not have to imagine anything at all; everything is presented to us already prepared! What can be better than that!! See how the scientific discoveries are helping the 'modern man' conserve energy?
——————-
["Your air of elitism is actually quite sickening as all the Hindu supremacy spewed on this site."]
Some Hindus are indeed being supremacists but not all are! There are many like me who are open to learning new/alternative viewpoints. That is why I again ask- What is the simple direct truth/message of Jesus, and how does it help/satisfy the modern man?
If this message and your explanation of it seem vastly more beneficial than what I have learnt from science and the Indian texts, I will either convert or will incorporate your message into my current belief system (after giving due credit to Jesus and Christianity of course)!
The Myths of old are no longer needed nor will they progress modern man. Hinduism is just like Greek and Egyptian, Norse, Celtic Mythologies. They were needed in their time. But, NOT today's time. What is needed today is the combining of Science and Spirit. A more accurate mating that strips the Mind of the demons and bogeyman. ALL the old Mythologies are full of the demons. Jesus has the best answers for Modern Man and his simple Truths lead through Science will be the New Myths of Modern Man. Out with the Dead and in with the New. Hinduism is Dead and for those searching, do NOT look to the East for answers they are all on the path to nowhere. Look to the reality of Science that is emboldened by Jesus' Word.
Our lives are mythical. Mythology surrounds us everyday. Our modern lives are alive and bound to our mythologies. Our history, our fears, and our dreams are our Mythologies. Not only do we live mythical lives we are mythical creatures. What are myths and how does mythology affect our lives? Myth, according to the Greeks, simply meant story. Myths then are a collection of sacred stories and mythology is then, a collection of sacred stories peculiar to a particular group of people or culture.
Mythology is the way in which we explain the Universe to ourselves, which is why they are considered sacred. They usually are religious but not all myths are of a religious nature. However, all myths deal with deities and the supernatural. Depending on the point of the myth, there are three categories they fall into. These categories are: 1) Creation myths, 2) Religious myths, and 3) Origin myths. Creation myths are myths about the creation or beginning of the Universe. Religious myths explain particular religious customs: the why and how to do them. Finally, origin myths, which explains the beginnings of particular things, people, or words.
We cannot say that mythologies are metaphors for our own culture because the function of a metaphor is to assert "this" is "that". Most myths are stories that strive to explain the connection between the sacred and mundane. It answers how and why we came to be and the underlying nature of the cosmos itself. We would in no way compare ourselves with the ancient pantheons such as the Greek, Norse, Egyptian, or Mesopotamian and say that the Gods they believed in are in fact who we are.
Mythology is in fact more of an analogy to our own culture, history, and beliefs. While we cannot equate ourselves with a deity we can try to imbue ourselves with the positive attributes of the deity or deities that we believe in. In this way our mythologies aren't just bedtime stories but truly sacred stories that can give us hope to be better people striving to reach our full potential while respecting our past. What is the point of all of this? The point is that we are steeped in mythology everyday of our lives. Myths aren't just sacred stories from the unknowable past but rather stories of where we come from, what and who we are, and where we can go. Our everyday lives are the myths of today and the mythologies of tomorrow!
Supriya – I have not been clear to your Mind. I need you to put down your bias for awhile. I will attempt humbly to explain to you Truth. The Hindu mythology (just like Greek or Egyptian Mythology) with all its God's are nothing more than masks covering or trying to explain Natural Phenomenon to the uninitiated Mind. Can you imagine Buddha with his Enlightenment trying to describe Natural Phenomena that he experienced to the normal mindset of his day? It would be like you trying to explain a car to a Neanderthal Man. All your demons and God's are nothing more than fear mongering by the ruling class. You have created caste's and that has been your downfall. Your obvious superiority and Elitism are the seeds to its destruction, just like Greek and Egyptian Mythology.
What is becoming is the simple Truths of Jesus as he explained Natural Phenomenon to the modern man that has been initiated in the Truths of Science. The old Hindu's when it was new would think a car was a great God chariot that needed to be worshiped. That is why the Hindu Mythology is dead. Poor Supriya listening to the liars of Hinduism. Not that Hinduism is bad or evil, only that its time is up. Modern man does not need Shiva to explain the Natural Phenomenon of its cycle. Jesus' message of God and the Truths of Science are what Man needs now. All the old Mythologies are dead now. Hindu's are leaving the Myths behind in droves. Your air of elitism is actually quite sickening as all the Hindu supremacy spewed on this site. You are all lost now. I hope you good travels in your search.
Supriya don't believe anything this Jesus guy writes . It is riddle this guy says he had studied Hinduism and calls himself Jesus .Due to the nature of my job ,I was fortunate enough to travel to many countries.
In America & Europe christian churches are becoming empty ,nobody believes in Christianity any more some people who made it as a source of lively hood is now trying to market it , At first they tried to proclaim it but failed miserably .
Day by day Hinduism is getting popular ,in youtube itself you can watch hundreds of videos of western converts not only that, our old vedic scriptures are gaining popularity among westerners .
Recent archaeological findings are proving that our gods like Sri. Rama & Krishna where real people and Hinduism is no more a myth it is the reality .( Unlike the Jesus Christ myth in the New Testament )
Hope is a great source of strength ,This Jesus guy is just hoping that the Hinduism should die .
Suppose if the whole of Hindus in India converts to other religion ,the America and other western countries population will become Hindus .
Jesus
Have you ever considered anybody looking to Christianity for answers are morons and insecure people?Throughout almost it's entire time on earth the motor driving christianity has been in addition to the fear of death,fear of devil and fear of hell.One can only imagine how potent these threats seemed prior to the rise of Science and rational thinking,which have largely robbed these bogeys of their power to inspire terror.
Listen if you can hear, do you want to make something in this life? If yes, renounce that false religion and convert to your original religion Hinduism.
It's the call of Time Jesus,listen to it or be the worshiper of moronic religion called christianity. Choice is yours !!!!!!!!!!!
Even if Ali Sina is dead, his beloved sons and daughters will continue his legacy of good works.
Supriya have you EVER considered that anybody looking to Hinduism for answers are fools? Think about that for awhile. Maybe these westerners you speak of are fools. Why would any rational person look to a dead religion for answers? Do people look to Greek Mythology or Egyptian Mythology for Truths? No and Hinduism is of the same retort. The fools of Pharisee's put Jesus to death!. Don't you see nobody likes change but ONLY change can bring progress. You are hugging a dead a decaying body called Hinduism. Listen if you can hear, do you want to make something in this life? Or do you wish to be another of the dead worshipers? Your Choice Supriya.
Are you referring to a genius like me? 😉
This is a possible possibility; an Einstein-cum-Budha will come to earth to explain this.
Ho ! grace the more the husbands you have the merrier I am ,
Only I was confirming your identity that you are Agracan. You are alive and kicking !
When you freak out the truth comes out ,Jesus Christ died . But by your accounts it should be Jesus Christ ascended to heaven. It is so troublesome to defend christian lies now .
You lonely, forlorn, homeless orphan
Answer my questions in English , you coward..
این واقعا هیچ یک از کسب و کار خود را که من دوست دارم هر دو علی و جاناتان یا که آنها مرا دوست داشته باشی.
A typical hindu indeed!
@Ali Sina
Great article. You have put the things so simply. God has gifted you great mind to understand this universe. You are my Guru. I proud to be fan of Great Dr. Ali Sina. Few questions:
Why all people mind is not as evolved as your'? Is it result of your previous births diligence for the knowledge? What you think?
In my country there is 5 years old boy "'Kotilaya'' who have immense knowledge of Geography even professors who teach Geography surprised by his wisdom and claims even they can not answer so accurately as this 5 years old boy answers.
//Are you jealous of the fact that I love Mr Jonathan Harrel much more than ever here?//
Why did he break up with you ? Doesn't it mean that he hates you from the bottom of his heart ?
//By the way, may I know why are you so interested to know my personal affair? What has it got to do with you, even if I marry both Ali and Jonathan Harel here?//
Both of them don't give a hoot.
@darkfire316
She is mentally sick patient and escaped from a Mental Hospital.
Jesus
Do you know David Frawley ? His book American Veda : How Indian Spirituality changed the West is one of the best sellers. http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/david-frawley
Jesus
Couldnt you face the reality ? Am I wrong to say westerners in droves are interested in indian philosophies ?
//Hinduism is dead Supriya.//
Why scholar westerners are embracing Hinduism ? doesnt it seem that christianity is dead ?
// Be brave, face you fears young man//
I suspect that you are an Indian.Do you think that Supriya is the name of a man ?
Jesus,admit that you are insecure within on knowing that christians are converting to Hinduism .
//The curtain of Hinduism has passed and the Jesus has pulled back the curtain for all to see as it truly is. Simple really. //
oh really ? then why westerners are atheists ?
knowTheEnemy asked you the message of Jesus but you didnt reply him. May I ask why?
Do you want to know why western christians are embracing Hinduism ?
visit http://www.stephen-knapp.com/why-i-became-a-hindu-a-kris... bhakta.html
Do you know past life regression therapy ( which proves reincarnation is true) ?
//I say unto you that Christianity is one of the most untruthful religions in the world. It is a disease, a sickness, a pathology, a poison. It has not been helpful to humanity in finding the truth in any sense. It has been trying to propagate lies so continuously that they have almost become truth.// I personally think that you should replace the word 'Çhristianity' to 'Hinduism' and read the quoted comment again. Then, you'll realized that indeed, if all those rapists were Christian instead of Hindu, many Hindu women and even, female tourists would be spared from being raped or killed in India. In addition, if all the Hindus were Christians, many baby girls would have spared from being buried alive or killed by their own Hindu parents and the best thing to know is that, there would be less dowry problems or honor killings in India. I think that many Hindus, including you, will thank me from the bottom of your heart for my excellent suggestion here to make India became a nice and safe place to dwell again. Cheers. 🙂
I don't blame a mentally sick man like you for hurling unkind remarks about me here because you're insane and your words and actions are as such.
@Sam Sudhi
/The father and the son depicted in the bible is the emperor Constantine and his son not the Jesus and God /.
You are absolutely true! .It was Constantine who was actually the founder of Christianity. He was the decisive factor in the Council of Nicea. It was under his pressure — because he was the emperor of Rome ; that the priests voted for the divine personality of Jesus. He made Jesus a divine person. It was his creation, his invention.
He also changed Jesus' birthday from January sixth to December twenty-fifth, the day of the solar rebirth. The twenty-fifth of December, which is celebrated all over the world, is not Jesus' birthday. The whole idea of Christmas is bogus.
Jesus was born on January sixth, but under Constantine's influence and power, it was changed to December twenty-fifth, the day of the solar rebirth. It is thought by the sun worshippers that the sun was born on the twenty-fifth of December. The whole of Christianity is living in utter darkness. Their Christmas is bogus; and the church knows it perfectly well but won't allow people to know about it.
This is called defending the truth.
I call it defending lies.
Constantine saw Jesus as a failed messiah, with himself as the real messiah ; and his view was ratified by the famous Christian bishop, Eusebius of Caesarea, who said, "It is as if the religion of Abraham is at last fulfilled, not in Jesus, but in Constantine."
Constantine imposed himself as the real last prophet for whom the Jews had been waiting. Of course, the Jews could not crucify the emperor of Rome. And the Christians wanted some royal support; otherwise they were being crucified everywhere. They found a shelter in Constantine, but it was a bargain, purely business. They accepted that Jesus was a failed messiah, and that Constantine was the real messiah.
But this is not told to the public! Christians are not aware of it. All these scriptures are hidden under the Vatican.
I say unto you that Christianity is one of the most untruthful religions in the world. It is a disease, a sickness, a pathology, a poison. It has not been helpful to humanity in finding the truth in any sense. It has been trying to propagate lies so continuously that they have almost become truth.
This also makes you a liar. But you are mentally insane. So I can not really hold you accountable for your own actions.
Are you jealous of the fact that I love Mr Jonathan Harrel much more than ever here? But I'm curious to know what has it got to do with you anyway? //There are many evidences available which say Jesus traveled India during his missing 12 years of childhood and was guided by Hindu sages.// I think that my dear Ali will shake his head again when reading your this silly comment.
By the way, may I know why are you so interested to know my personal affair? What has it got to do with you, even if I marry both Ali and Jonathan Harel here?
Only those who worship a cow like a god will contract mad cow disease and pass away in stupidity and sad to say that you're one of those cow worshipper. So, it'll be good if you become as wise as an owl and then, you'll die peacefully in old age. I'm puzzled why you Hindus are as stubborn as a cow? The blatant truth is that Jesus Christ has never ever travelled to India at all while he was walking on earth but after His death, his fame and Christianity eventually spread to India and other continents by his faithful disciple and followers.
Are you insane? Freedom is everyone's right and Ali do respect my human right 1) to be here, 2)to change my pseudonym, 3)and to express my views here. So, I hope that you'll behave like a sane human being and mind your own business.
Oh young Supriya….that got you. Why did it get to you? Are you overly sensitive to criticism in the face of your hypocrisy? Your elitism is showing through. Why is that? You are like the Pharisees of old that are too weak minded and afraid of losing power to the young and vital. Hinduism is dead Supriya. You are embracing death. The Truths behind Hinduism are Eternal, yet you seem to think only HIndu's have the formula. Is that right or do you agree that others may too? Be brave, face you fears young man. Jesus has all the answers in his simple message. It is the Nature of God that he speaks of. That's it. Not the demons of Hinduism. The curtain of Hinduism has passed and the Jesus has pulled back the curtain for all to see as it truly is. Simple really.
@mystical,
//Not possible, since if 1 of those objects got thrown out the other would cease//
Sets of size 1 are entirely possible. As I said, take 2 apples and eat one, the other apple won't cease to exist or its boundary disappear.
//Their is the fact its not everything and as a result its existence depends on "Not A"//
Which is foolish. See example above.
//Which means its not possible to know anything about this "God",//
Not 'anything', but yes it logically mean that it can't be said that you know 'everything' about this "God".
//which means we cannot understand his reasons but then again maybe he doesn't exist? //
Which means that we 'needn't' understand 'all' Its reasons. Yes, 'may be' is the right word.
//Their is nothing interesting "life" is just a particular arrangement of matter – and that's it. //
The repeatation doesn't answer the question. There is a step that requires a particular arrangement of matter (using your words) transform into another (even if through Evolution) so that we can differentiate between what was inanimate and is animate now.
//Because their are begging the question, they have already assumed (without any proof) that a creator exists.//
I referred you to Aquinas's mighty work on this subject. And there are others too. Those are logical postulations.
//Things don't happen by "luck" things happen because of the physical state of the universe//
Another contradiction. Just a post or 2 back you were saying that life is a product of "pure luck" 🙂
//Their is only 1 of that rock is the whole of existence so it is indeed "extraordinarily rare".//
Non Sequitur. It is not 1 of that rock that was in question but the phenomenon of having rocks in relation to having life on a tiny planet.
//"A living cow and a cow which just died have exactly same matter." No they do not if a bullet goes through your brain the matter//
Cows also die naturally. Tell me what is the difference in matter of a cow that was living and just died. You are now introducing a new parameter namely 'state of matter'. This actually contradicts your own position in previous posts (from a couple of weeks back) that the whole is just the sum of the parts 🙂
@mystical,
//Existence of natural laws is a fact "God" is not.//
That wasn't the point. What you said about God in that statement is equally true if you replace God by "Luck". Because that is what you were ascribing certain facts to.
//I am not contradicting myself, since you are just straw-manning me.//
Where is the straw man? I used two statements you have said:
1. "So is the believe that you can use reason to comprehend everything." I never claimed that.
This implies you agree that there are things that reason alone can't comprehend.
2. only that reason is the only valid method to comprehend anything.
Which then contradicts 1. if you try to use that in comprehending any idea. In fact even before you start you will have to find a class of ideas/things that reason can comprehend and others that it can't.
So if we go back to your answer to my question Q: How can you say something is reasonable? A: By using reason alone; what we get is a classic example of Circular Reasoning. :-). It is not a Straw man, but a self-inflicted logical conundrum.
//A=A is not a opinion, logic is inherently built into reality if a thing is a rock //
Again only a faith. How will you even prove that? Moreover I didn't make that comment against the Law of Identity, but a knowledge that you say isn't empirical but only a definition on the back of my finding that Knowledge requires refinements. I can understand why you avoided responding to the Liar's paradox 🙂
//It can't simultaneously be a rock and not a rock. This is not an opinion but is a law of Nature.//
That is empirical knowledge, not a knowledge based on definition:-). You are showing wrong examples.
//" All reasons are just that, a product of our mind. " Which means the universe doesn't exist for "reasons".//
Which means if you reject one reason as a product of mind, the other groups of reasoning are also susceptible to the same rejection.
//The set itself is infinite but every individual number is not – the same as with "the all" every part of the all is finite but the all itself is infinite//
Don't make lofty unrelated statements. Now that’s a Straw Man. You gave me a definition and I showed you how that definition can be used to prove that [0, 1] is a thing, while clearly it isn't finite. Also it is not "All" it is but a subset of R, the set of all real numbers.. in fact it is a subset of infinitely many well defined sets [-1, 1], [0, 2], [-3, 3] etc. There is no doubt about it being bounded, identifiable and separable from other and there is no doubt about it being infinite.
//Its impossible because a thing by definition is bounded and less than the all.//
First it is YOUR definition. The logical flaw of which has been pointed above. Second, even if we accept this definition, it still doesn't prove why a non-contingent thing is logically impossible.
//We can only define and recognize a thing if it is finite and bounded, since it is finite it means BY DEFINITION it exists only in relation to what is not//
:-). Doesn't matter how many times you repeat a crap, it remain a crap. Take two apples and eat one. The other apple exists no more in relation with the apple you have eaten. There is no logical connect between being dependent on others and being finite and bounded. You have to establish it first.
//you seem to have a mental block about this so their is not much point trying argue this point with you.//
:-). That’s the last resort for a person who can't refute or affirm his own stand. You have some dogma and you aren't logically coherent with that dogma. It wasn't difficult to see the logical pitfalls of your position.
@Phoenix
//As always,Mystic can't comprehend the rigorous discipline of logic and wishes to interject his own version without proper justification. //
I suspect much the same
So you beg ali to ban you, saying you'll stop coming here if he does. Then he finally does it and you come back under a different name. You really are mentally insane.
Sakat
The Bible and other texts of christianity cant satisfy the spiritual quest of scholar westerners. They think scientifically and logically and therefore they are interested in our scriptures like Ved,Upanishad, Bhagawad gita.
There are many movements in the West and their ideology is Indian philosophy of spirituality.Some of them are New Age movement, International Society for krishna consciousness, New Vedanta movement.
There are more than 1000 different editions of Bhagawad gita available, 70% of them are in non-Indian especially European languages.
Around 5 lakh westerners visited Kumbh melain UP in 2012.
Some 3 to 4 yr ago, a Russian court decided to ban Bhagawad gita because Russians in droves were converting to Hinduism. They all were Krishna bhakta. Due to strong opposition by Russian Hindu community the court didnt ban Bhagawad gita.
We Indians dont need to defend the truth. TheTruth is revealing itself. The best example is lakhs of non-Indians believe in Reincarnation.
Dr. Sina said coming 2 decades are pregnant with many changes and new spiritual awakening is taking place. Our philosophies including Yoga are accepted worldwide. Dont you think that the Kaliyug is slowly shifting towards Saty yug ?
Jesus
I am sorry Jesus but Christianity is dying.
Scholar westerners( christians) are renouncing Cristianity and converting to Hinduism( proofs are found on YouTube)
//The Truths are Eternal, but the structure Falls. It is Natures Way. The old must die for the New to arise. It's all in Nature.//
Re-cycling is the nature of the NATURE( you referred to). The time of Christianity is over and the nature must return to the Hinduism.
I asked you many questions and provided you many links which support my arguments. But you couldnt answer my questions. I told you that I would refute your every argument after my exams and I think I am succeeded.
Why dont you convince those westerners who love to read Bhagawad gita.Why didnt Neils Bohr say – I go to the Bible to ask questions.
I AM SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.
@Sam Sudhi
//Are you Agracan who wanted to marry Ali Sina and finally got settled down with his site administrator Jonathan Harrel .//
You are wrong. Web Administrator Jonathan Harrel broke up with her. She is lonely and forlorn.
There are many evidences available which say Jesus traveled India during his missing 12 years of childhood and was guided by Hindu sages.
Are you Agracan who wanted to marry Ali Sina and finally got settled down with his site administrator Jonathan Harrel .
Ho ! Then sorry if I hurt you by talking about Jesus . I thought Agrasan contracted mad cow disease and passed away peacefully . I was a fan of her's ….
We Hindus are not the ones who talking around that Jesus was in India ,it is the evangelical christian s in America doing that ,for a start go and listen to Elizabeth Clair Prophet .
But we Hindus love Jesus ,he is still the prince of Peace ( Though bible is fiction ), it is the people like Jesus ( man ) who invents new claims about Jesus after studying Hinduism ,make us mad …….
I am happy our old grace is still alive ( though many hindus in this site hates you )
It's you who have no idea at all about the ultimate truth. I think that my dear Ali will shake his head in disbelief at your low IQ.
//You remove the new testament there is no evidence of Jesus Christ ! ,No historical or archaeological evidence
of such a person lived ,// For goodness sake, stop babbling like a fool. Don't you know that in the Old Testament, there are many verses and references pointing to Jesus Christ, the Messiah? ie. Isaiah 53. //The real Jesus came to India from Palastine stayed until his death ( many manuscripts both Hindu & Buddhist have recorded this ) .// This is absolute nonsense! You sounded exactly like that Hindu Supriya and I wonder how on earth can any sane human believe and trust in your account or analysis of any matter. Please note that no where in the Bible or any past historical accounts show that Jesus travelled to India. So, you Hindu guys and gals better stop lying here and be truthful.
@Chuck
For example if A has a truth value, say true, and B has a truth value, say again, true, then (A and B ) is true. Now if A = The following statement is correct, and B = The preceding statement is false. Then even though A and B have specific truth values, the conjugate (A and B ) leads to Liar's Paradox.//
Yes,the epimenides paradox/liars paradox is a perfect example of a statement that can't be verified at it's own level,hence the need for a higher level.As always,Mystic can't comprehend the rigorous discipline of logic and wishes to interject his own version without proper justification.
Sakath great reply ! . Yes ! the council of Nicaea is the one suggested Jesus as a divine personality.
The father and the son depicted in the bible is the emperor Constantine and his son not the Jesus and God .
There is a new video about Jesus the Christ in the you tube by modern historians .
Hey Jesus man ! Have you ever considered pondering into this subject Why new testament is written in Greek
You remove the new testament there is no evidence of Jesus Christ ! ,No historical or archaeological evidence
of such a person lived ,The testament is a fabrication of concocted stories from Hindu Purana and Greek Egyptian myths and flock lore like virgin birth ( Karna' s story from Mahabaratha ) etc…..
There are nuggets of truth in what Sakath is saying .( Now no more Mafia , Jesuits in Vatican had taken over this role )
Alexander lived three thousand years ago each and every battle in his life is written clearly by his biographers and historians who traveled with him during his invasions . His invasion of India and the reason he failed to capture India is crystal clearly written by his biographers and historians ,and there is ample archaeological evidence both in India ,Persia and Greece about the existence of Alexander.But no such thing about a person lived 1000 years after Alexander.
After his his troops retreated from India ,the stories from hindu puranas also traveled with them and metamorphosis as New Testament ( Karna , Krishna ,Mithra ….. ) reincarnate as Jesus in the Bible .
The real Jesus came to India from Palastine stayed until his death ( many manuscripts both Hindu & Buddhist have recorded this ) .
Now christians in India ( like you ) are learning Hinduism and claiming that Jesus said this and that what is written in Hinduism . Yes ! this proves that Jesus was a Hindu or Buddhist monk.
By the by how you arrive into the conclusion that Jesus was a consummate Scientist , as per the bible he never even questioned the institution of Slavery ,never lifted a finger in abolishing it , I feel strange reading some of your writings and replies in this forum .
Because your statement is self refuting.//
My appeal to godels theorem which apparently eluded you,is perfectly in line with logic and math.I dare you to argue that it's not.Charging false fallacies won't work.
Because the only way you can validate anything is through reason//
Let me try another way:
Let's assume you're correct and Kurt Godel is incorrect,there's no need for a theory to be validated by a meta-theory,his math was severly flawed and he managed to fool all those logicians and mathematicians.
The main problem with your argument is not so much the conclusion but your path at arriving at the conclusion.You could be right but for the wrong reasons.So your argument cannot be correct if it contains a self-reference fallacy.Read this link below and scroll down to the hierachy sections http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/self-reference/
===
You cannot tell me why the universe is the way it is (and not some other way) therefore asking why the laws of nature are what are (or why life exists) is a nonsensical question – its like asking why rocks are the way are. The only answer is that is what the reality is.//
This is probably the most asinine thing you've said so far.We all know why a rock is a rock,even 5th graders do.
===
God as traditional defined in theism is a logical impossibility and their is no empirical evidence of any creator or so called intelligent design – I think this refutes your argument.//
Your logic is flawed because it requires material evidence for a non-material entity.Investigate category X inside of category ~X.This is a category mistake fallacy.So you've refuted nothing because you can't do that with a fallacy.
Dictionary says "Having no material body or form." which again is logical incoherent//
Intuition does not have material form yet it's a reality.
That is no such thing as "nothing"//
This is evidence for what?
What is a "first cause" and a first cause of what exactly?//
You still don't get the first cause concept or is it just another ploy at the socratic method?
@Mystical mind,
It’s almost impossible to prove existence or non existence of soul in a debate. As proof cannot be given by others for your soul. You only can get it.
At best we can find a mystic who is dead with no heartbeat, no pulse and no activity that you can measure by available medical instruments. And the next moment he will be back and talking to you as alive as all we are.
He might claim that he was conscious and alive in soul form and just his body was dead. But it does not prove the existence of soul. It is possible that he is lying and he just attained a higher level of control over his body so that he can even stop heartbeat on his will.
There is no other way to know the soul but to experience yourself. And it is possible for each human to have this experience if he has patience and if he is ready for the journey.
Swimming cannot be taught by books and theories, one need to dive in waters to learn it. And if one is not ready for experiment then all pro and against arguments in theory are worthless. What I said is also true for those who claim day and night that soul exist but not ready to dive in the waters of experiment.
This is a link to article on same topic but again it cant help much if used only for debate. http://akshat.freedombulwark.com/?p=4
I am sorry Supriya, but Hinduism is dying. It is has served for its time, but now it is dying. The Truths are Eternal, but the structure Falls. It is Natures Way. The old must die for the New to arise. It's all in Nature. The Way of Jesus is coming of Age. It has gone through its Birth and Teenage years and now is coming into Adulthood. The answers to the next millennial for Man is inherent on Jesus' message. Hinduism is the old man meditating in the cave looking to be closer to God as He leaves this realm. I am sorry for your loss.
Sakat…I see you have revealed yourself to all. I wish you hope. But you have proven to be a closed minded elitist. You feel threatened by others, do you not? Instead of debating intelligently, you go for the low road of doing what you are accusing others of. Shame on you. You are not doing well with your studies. Your paranoia has stunted your growth. You cannot see with a closed Mind of blind eyes or deaf ears. What are you afraid of Sakat? Why do you wish to infect others with your fears? It will not bring you any relief by doing so. Perhaps, you need a new ideology to grow. Not many people are part of the solution and you have now proved you are part of the problem. Your words no longer add to this conversation. The world is full of blind closed Minded like you. You have Nothing to add at this time. But perhaps if you are brave, you may persist and change your evil ways. Not many do, you must desire to be better than what you have shown here. Well Sakat, do you want to be a better?
Very good article. Thank you once again.<img src="http://s04.flagcounter.com/mini/mHX/bg_FFFFFF/txt_DBDBDB/border_FFFFFF/flags_1/" height="1" width="1" />
//Hinduism states God is the only truth and the universe is an illusion/hologram.// Why are there so many hindu gods? Which hindu god are your referring to? //Jesus had learned the siddhi of resurrection by Buddhist monks/ Hindu sages. You have to thank Indian philosophy of spirituality and sages.// This is absolute nonsense and all your silly deductions and analysis cannot be trusted.
"Replace the word by "God" by "Luck" and you have exactly the same statement that you were making." Existence of natural laws is a fact "God" is not.
" In fact you now contradict yourself since you add that it is the only valid method of comprehending anything " I am not contradicting myself, since you are just straw-manning me.
" If it is only based on definition then perhaps it is nothing more than opinion. " A=A is not a opinion, logic is inherently built into reality if a thing is a rock then it is a rock. It can't simultaneously be a rock and not a rock. This is not an opinion but is a law of Nature.
" All reasons are just that, a product of our mind. " Which means the universe doesn't exist for "reasons".
" So will you call it existent?" If yes, then it violates your premise of being finite" " The set itself is infinite but every individual number is not – the same as with "the all" every part of the all is finite but the all itself is infinite.
"By the way here I asked you to prove that non-contingent thing is a logical impossibility." Its impossible because a thing by definition is bounded and less than the all.
"It encompasses the all. It is the all." The all is not particular thing and certainly not a God man you seem to have a mental block about this so their is not much point trying argue this point with you.
"Show me a definition that says that existent thing is finite? " This my definition of a "thing" – that which is less than the all.
"Moreover even if finite there dependency on other object is no more a requirement in their existence or in their definitional identification." We can only define and recognize a thing if it is finite and bounded, since it is finite it means BY DEFINITION it exists only in relation to what is not.
"To understand that simply conceive a universe of 2 objects and then simply throw one of object out of the universe (redraw the universe)." Not possible, since if 1 of those objects got thrown out the other would cease (as the object for 1 thing would no longer have any boundary).
"There is simply no reason to say that A exist because B exist." Their is the fact its not everything and as a result its existence depends on "Not A"
"This is the reason why we have so many religions. " The reason we have so how many religions is because they are all man-made bullshit as is "God".
"but that it NEED NOT be." Which means its not possible to know anything about this "God", which means we cannot understand his reasons but then again maybe he doesn't exist?
" the step which transformed non-animated existence into animated existences and processes is something that is INTERESTING!! " Their is nothing interesting "life" is just a particular arrangement of matter – and that's it.
"And you want to give credit to "pure luck"." I'll give credit to the universe and it being in a certain physical state which allowed life to come about.
"It was a question to you asking why if somebody sees a divine plan in the existence of life will the claim be unjustified. " Because their are begging the question, they have already assumed (without any proof) that a creator exists.
"The question was how luck is a better position logically?" Things don't happen by "luck" things happen because of the physical state of the universe. so their is another another fallacy the author of this article makes when he presents his false dilemma of either believing in "design" or "chance" and "accidents" when neither is the case.
"Well I didn't see you use extraordinarily rare for the rock you were referring to!! " Their is only 1 of that rock is the whole of existence so it is indeed "extraordinarily rare".
"A living cow and a cow which just died have exactly same matter." No they do not if a bullet goes through your brain the matter is in a different state to what it was a few moments before when you was alive.
//Great so they now could claim anything is evidence of whatever their minds make up and what their imagination calls "God".//
Replace the word by "God" by "Luck" and you have exactly the same statement that you were making. Only that you were trying to make it sound a little more intelligent.
// I never claimed that, only that reason is the only valid method to comprehend//
So you agree that you can't use reason in every case of comprehension. In fact you now contradict yourself since you add that it is the only valid method of comprehending anything 🙂
//Empirical knowledge yes, not knowledge based on definitions. //
Knowledge based on definition? Whats that? If it is only based on definition then perhaps it is nothing more than opinion.
//"Reasons" in that context was … fact a projection onto nature from our own mind. //
This is laughable. Is there any 'reason' that we don't 'give'? I mean is there any 'reason' that doesn't come out of our mind? All reasons are just that, a product of our mind.
//A existent thing is finite in that it must have 1) Its own boundaries 2) Its own particular qualities and attributes and 3) Be recognizable and distinct from everything else in existence//
:-). The mathematical set of Real Numbers, [0, 1] is 1) bounded, 2) has its own qualities, by definition of a set, and 3) Is distinct, again by its own definition (any number less than 0, or greater than 1 doesn't belong to it). So will you call it existent? If yes, then it violates your premise of being finite, and if No, then your criteria is wrong or incomplete.
By the way here I asked you to prove that non-contingent thing is a logical impossibility.
//No their God-man which they believe in is not the all, The all is not a personal God so theists can not believe in such a God. //
It encompasses the all. It is the all.
//Pure logical proofs are based on definitions and are certain – unlike scientific theories which are inherently uncertain. //
That is again a faith and nothing more. You can't prove why that would be or should be the case. There are, easy to produce, instances where what are purely logical will lead to paradoxes. For example if A has a truth value, say true, and B has a truth value, say again, true, then (A and B ) is true. Now if A = The following statement is correct, and B = The preceding statement is false. Then even though A and B have specific truth values, the conjugate (A and B ) leads to Liar's Paradox.
//An existent thing is finite – by definition – and as result dependent on that which it is not. //
This is again just a claim and nothing more. Show me a definition that says that existent thing is finite? Moreover even if finite there dependency on other object is no more a requirement in their existence or in their definitional identification. To understand that simply conceive a universe of 2 objects and then simply throw one of object out of the universe (redraw the universe). There is simply no reason to say that A exist because B exist. This is exactly why the Law of Identity doesn't say anything about the dependency on other objects.
//It is the believers assumption their is a God and they know why that God created the universe.//
It is just an assumption. Not a requirement.
//Theists claim to know him and that he has a plan not just for the universe but for themselves purposely.//
Not all and not always. Moreover knowing that God has a plan doesn't mean that the Theist know the plan or how it is going to operate. This is the reason why we have so many religions.
//Furthermore in the way in which you just described it (God's actions not being logical to humans), it would be impossible to know whether God exists or not.//
I didn't say it is not logical to human, but that it NEED NOT be. As far as the possibility is concerned it is completely plausible if we follow, for example, Aquinas' quinque viae.
//"Well is it not?" It was not made by a God. //
And now you are joining two different statements. You claimed that life isn't special and I asked why isn't it? When in the same breath you also say life is extraordinarily rare!!!
//What fact? That life Evolved from natural selection where 99.9% of the species who have ever lived have dies?//
The fact is that life exist, whether it evolved on Earth by natural selection or not is a separate point. What is important is that at one point there was no life and then there was life, the step which transformed non-animated existence into animated existences and processes is something that is INTERESTING!!
//Because our planet lives on a knife edge //
The more interesting point is that it lives.
//Are these the facts you want your "intelligent designer" to take credit for? //
And you want to give credit to "pure luck". 🙂
//You wrote in your previous message "Yes. So?" so don't forget what you wrote. //
I haven't. It was a question to you asking why if somebody sees a divine plan in the existence of life will the claim be unjustified. You haven't responded to it. In fact I showed you how that is reasonable using your own stance of using reason!!
//"Theist would simply see God instead. How is your position any better?" 1) Their is no evidence … human imagination based in wish thinking. //
The question was how luck is a better position logically?
//Well anything that exists is special then, since their is only 1 of anything in the whole of existence. //
:-). Well I didn't see you use extraordinarily rare for the rock you were referring to!!
//"Life" is just a particular arrangement of matter, nothing "special" about and certainly not "designed".//
A living cow and a cow which just died have exactly same matter.
I would recommend reading Dinesh D'souza's book Life After Death. It fits in well with todays topic.
@Supriya
Christianity is a vast propaganda. They say they are defending the truth, but truth needs no defense, it is self-evident. It needs no propaganda. Lies need to be defended, lies need to be propagated, but not truth. Truth shines almost like a sunrise, you don't have to declare it.
The whole of Christianity lives in a paranoia that if anybody finds some truth, then what is going to happen to their lies that they go on propagating?.The Vatican has an underground library of thousands of scriptures which they have burned, saving only one copy. Nobody is allowed to enter, except the pope and the cardinals, to see all the evidence, all the proofs which go against Christianity. The public is not allowed to know what the truth is. And these people, Jesuits, are claiming that Christianity defends truth!
If it defends truth, it should open the underground library in the Vatican to all the scholars who want to study there, and Christianity will evaporate without leaving a single trace on the human consciousness. It is ninety-nine percent myth, invented, propagated, but it has a great propaganda machine, and it has a militant church. It has almost half of humanity converted to Christianity.
It is a strange thing, but I want to tell it to you: after the death of Jesus Christ, three hundred years after, it was through voting that the Christian priests decided that he was a divine personality — by voting. And who were these people who were voting? They knew nothing of divineness.
This has never happened anywhere else. Mahavira was never elected as a tirthankara, Buddha was not elected by the masses as an awakened man. Poor Jesus not only suffered on the cross, he has suffered more from his own self-styled so-called representatives.
What would have happened if the vote had been against his divinity? Is religion a political affair? And people who had no experience of godliness were voting and deciding by vote, three hundred years later, that he was a divine personality. This was decided in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Jesus was declared divine by a vote of the Council of Nicea. The nature of his divinity was also decided by vote. This is the ugliest thing you can think of.Truth does not need votes. It is self-luminous.
Hermann Samuel Remarius, a professor at Hamburg in the eighteenth century, wrote that "Jesus was a failed Jewish revolutionary whose body was removed from its tomb by his disciples."
Christianity is a fiction. Jesus had never even heard the name Christianity. It has been imposed on him, he was not the founder of Christianity. Who exactly was the founder of Christianity? One thing is certain, Jesus was not. He never thought about founding a religion, he was simply telling the Jews, "I am your last prophet." He died on the cross as a Jew.Then who founded Christianity?
You can find Buddhism in the teachings of Gautam Buddha; he was the founder. You can find in the teachings of Mahavira that he was the founder of Jainism. You can find in the teachings of Lao Tzu that he was the founder of Taoism. But it is a very strange thing about Christianity: the founder had no idea at all, was not interested in creating a new religion.
The man who founded it , you will not believe it ; was the Emperor Constantine. The church knows it, but does not allow the public to know it.
Emperor Constantine of Rome, who headed the Council of Nicea, died as a Christian, but he was baptized only on his deathbed. His whole life he was the high priest of the Sun God religion, which was why he changed the sabbath from Saturday, which was Jesus' sabbath day, to Sunday. Jews still have their sabbath on Saturday, and Jesus also had lived his whole life believing in the sabbath on Saturday. How did it become Sunday?.It was Constantine, who was a worshipper of the Sun God. Sunday represents the sun; the followers of the sun have always believed that Sunday is a holy day.
"If my statement is false,then show me the fallacy or give its name" Because your statement is self refuting.
"You have failed to show me how appealing to higher validation is a paradox. " Because the only way you can validate anything is through reason.
"Tell me why your logic is immune to that " Because your statement is pure nonsense and self refuting that's why.
"And now you have laws that have no cause.Spot the contradiction yet? " Why do those laws need a cause? Also reality itself has no cause and is causeless.
"Also I can tell you the cause of rocks and how they formed. " You cannot tell me why the universe is the way it is (and not some other way) therefore asking why the laws of nature are what are (or why life exists) is a nonsensical question – its like asking why rocks are the way are. The only answer is that is what the reality is.
"This does not refute my initial argument of having no evidence and logic.In fact,it confirms it because you responded with a tu quoque. " God as traditional defined in theism is a logical impossibility and their is no empirical evidence of any creator or so called intelligent design – I think this refutes your argument.
"You don't have a dictionary?" Dictionary says "Having no material body or form." which again is logical incoherent.
"This is evidence for what?" That is no such thing as "nothing".
" You are supposed to refute the concept of first cause." What is a "first cause" and a first cause of what exactly?
Part 2
"So is the believe that you can use reason to comprehend everything." I never claimed that, only that reason is the only valid method to comprehend anything which is quite a different claim (including any limitations reason itself may have).
"simply that our knowledge has always required refinement." Empirical knowledge yes, not knowledge based on definitions.
"You are killing your own argument of using Reason too. Since reasoning is a product of mind etc etc." "Reasons" in that context was about the reasons WE GIVE THINGS, since it is us that gives things reasons (or imagines that things exist for "reasons") it means any purpose and so called design we see in nature is in fact a projection onto nature from our own mind.
"Prove that. " "A existent thing is finite in that it must have 1) Its own boundaries 2) Its own particular qualities and attributes and 3) Be recognizable and distinct from everything else in existence. Since then an existent thing is (by definition) finite and therefore dependent on things which are not itself, if their was nothing but that thing their no way it could be recognizable , have its own boundaries etc and therefore such a thing is not logically possible.
"2. A Theist would claim God is the Reality so your concern is invalid." No their God-man which they believe in is not the all, The all is not a personal God so theists can not believe in such a God.
"In a Theist position Reality is the greatest proof of God!!" Reality itself is greater than their so called "God" (big G).
Part 1
"But who guarantees completeness of the knowledge on the basis of which you are reasoning?" Pure logical proofs are based on definitions and are certain – unlike scientific theories which are inherently uncertain.
"So it is not at all required to cavil that the existence of A depends on Not A. " An existent thing is finite – by definition – and as result dependent on that which it is not.
"That is mere rhetoric. Life may not be the only or ultimate goal of the creator, if there is one. That is your assumption because you want to call It stupid ." It is the believers assumption their is a God and they know why that God created the universe. "Moreover proponents of God may have different versions of It, but none of them assume that God will follow a method that will be constrained in a way that would seem logical to you or me or indeed to any human being." Theists claim to know him and that he has a plan not just for the universe but for themselves purposely. Furthermore in the way in which you just described it (God's actions not being logical to humans), it would be impossible to know whether God exists or not. Therefore God talk is just meaningless speculation.
"You resort to more rhetoric because you can't deny it. " What fact? That life Evolved from natural selection where 99.9% of the species who have ever lived have dies? Because our planet lives on a knife edge and their was a time when our species number was in the thousands and we survived by nothing except what could be called "pure luck"? Are these the facts you want your "intelligent designer" to take credit for?
"Well is it not?" It was not made by a God.
"Now where did I say that? Don't resort to lying now. " You wrote in your previous message "Yes. So?" so don't forget what you wrote.
"Theist would simply see God instead. How is your position any better?" 1) Their is no evidence of any God anywhere or any so called design. 2) Life is much better explained by naturalistic process than through a highly complex "God" which doesn't answer anything which is not logical or scientific and does nothing but complicates things it even more (same as with anything else where God is given as an "explanation".) 3) Their God is a fantasy and figment of their imagination even if the laws of physics were "fined tuned" by some mysterious intelligence (and their is no reason at all to believe that) it would be impossible to know anything about this being and any personal God is nothing but human imagination based in wish thinking.
"Thats why it is special." Well anything that exists is special then, since their is only 1 of anything in the whole of existence.
"A fact which kills your hypothesis of pervading hostile environs and unintelligent design, is there be some design " What about life is "designed" then or even looks designed? "Life" is just a particular arrangement of matter, nothing "special" about and certainly not "designed".
"There need be no purpose at all. That doesn't in any way desist a Theist from claiming a certain scheme of things governed by an agent. " Great so they now could claim anything is evidence of whatever their minds make up and what their imagination calls "God".
@graves of Muhammad's companions and are planning to also destroy the grave of Muhammad…………….
LIFE OF GRAVE IS NOT PHYSICAL LIFE ,WE CAN DESTROY THE PHYSICAL PART OF DEAD PERSON(BONE) ,BUT WE CANT WIPED OUT HIS SOUL ,IT IS COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL LIFE ,ALLHA ALMIGHTY ONLY KNOWN ABOUT IT ,SOME OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE ABOUT GRAVE LIFE ALLHA REVILED TROUGH PROPHET MUHAMMED(S),PERIOD OF LIFE ALL THE PERSON R SAME, GRAVE PUNISHMENT WILL BE THERE FOR BAD PPL,SINNER CAN SEE THEIR ETERNAL HELL ,MUTHAKEEN CAN SEE THEIR PARADISE ………….
Grave: Grave is the abode of the body after death, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said: “Verily the grave is the first step in the stages of the Hereafter; if one finds salvation (at this stage) the succeeding (stages) become easy for him, and if he does not find salvation in it, what follows this stage is very hard upon him.”[7] The bodies of common people decay in their graves with the passage of time, whilst the bodies of the Prophets (alaihi as-salaam) are preserved as a sign of honor. It is also known by observation that bodies of some martyrs are preserved.
Barzakh: Linguistically, “Barzakh” means a veil, barrier or partition between two things. Ibn Abbas (radhi allahu anhu) defines Barzakh as, a Hijab (a partition of veil). Adh-Dhahhak (a Tab’ieen scholar of Tafseer) says: ‘Barzakh is the stage between this world and the Hereafter.’[8] Al-Qurtubi, in his exposition on these various interpretations states: ‘The Barzakh is a barrier between two things. It is the stage between this world and the other world – from the time of death until the time of Resurrection. Thus, whoever dies enters the Barzakh”[9] All these various explanations point to one underlined fact, that the soul after having separated from its worldly body, enters into a realm behind which there is a barrier forbidding any return.
[7] Collected in at-Tirmidhee (no. 132) and Ibn Majah.
[8] See al-Qurtubi’s Tafseer, vol.12, p.150.
[9] See al-Qurtubi’s Tafseer, vol.12, p.150.
@Mystical,
//Its not my "faith", the only way logically possible to validate anything is through reason. //
But who guarantees completeness of the knowledge on the basis of which you are reasoning? I gave you the example of Geocentricity, a theory that was reasonable and could explain what the early earthlings saw, and then they saw something more and the theory couldn't fit any longer. That chain of reasoning was discarded in the light of newer observation.
//I never said their was. //
So it is not at all required to cavil that the existence of A depends on Not A.
//By seen how hostile the universe is to life, if it was designed for life it has been designed very poorly by a very stupid creator. //
That is mere rhetoric. Life may not be the only or ultimate goal of the creator, if there is one. That is your assumption because you want to call It stupid 🙂 . Moreover proponents of God may have different versions of It, but none of them assume that God will follow a method that will be constrained in a way that would seem logical to you or me or indeed to any human being.
// What fact? That 1 planet out of trillions upon trillions of them has life isn't proof of anything.//
There is no evidence that there is no life elsewhere. And the fact is at least one planet has. You resort to more rhetoric because you can't deny it.
//You think life is something "special" is the universe//
Well is it not? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special?s=…
//as the result of some purpose//
Now where did I say that? Don't resort to lying now.
//Which was the result of pure luck. //
🙂 Could be. That is just a position. Theist would simply see God instead. How is your position any better?
//Life is extraordinarily rare in the universe that we can be sure about. //
Thats why it is special. Something you are not prepared to accept. Second even if rare, it is there. At least in one planet.
//Which was the result of our planet being in the right place at the right time//
:-). See my answer above.
//Well such people try to say anything they can get their hands on is "evidence of God" so that doesn't surprise we//
Well, and people like you write off anything and everything that a Theist would say, however logically it is constructed and that is also not surprising.
//A fact which has nothing to do with "God" nor is it any reason to believe "life" is the result of a divine plan.//
A fact which kills your hypothesis of pervading hostile environs and unintelligent design, is there be some design 🙂
// Prove to me that life (and the universe) exists for a purpose can you do that?//
When did I make such a hypothesis? There need be no purpose at all. That doesn't in any way desist a Theist from claiming a certain scheme of things governed by an agent.
//Their belief is based in blind faith and dogma not reason.//
So is the believe that you can use reason to comprehend everything. It is also a blind faith and dogma. The underlying cause is simply that our knowledge has always required refinement. See the example of Geocentric Model again.
//"Reasons" or "purposes" are not inherently built into reality but are products of the mind, things don't have an inherent purpose, that is why this is false and based in delusional thinking. //
You are killing your own argument of using Reason too. Since reasoning is a product of mind etc etc.
//"Prove that." Even God could not exist if their was no reality itself – and that's a Fact.//
🙂
1. Don't skip a proof. You have claimed that it is not logically possible for non-contingent things to exist. Prove that.
2. A Theist would claim God is the Reality so your concern is invalid. In a Theist position Reality is the greatest proof of God!!
Jesus
Hinduism is not an ideology but the eternal way of life.It is not an ideology like Christianity and therefore it can't be destructed.
Hinduism states God is the only truth and the universe is an illusion/hologram.
Actually God is experiencing his limitless potential in the form of this diverse creation and therefore everything is interconnected.
Jesus had learned the siddhi of resurrection by Buddhist monks/ Hindu sages. You have to thank Indian philosophy of spirituality and sages.
Don't compare Hinduism with Greek mythology.
//Nature revealed by Jesus is what Modern Man will adhere to for growth.//
then why modern westerners are fascinated by Hinduism ? why they are visiting India to understand Indian philosophies and to seek inner peace ? why westerners are found in many Ashrams ? Why Yoga, Ayurved are involved in their daily life routine ?
Thanks knowTheEnemy.
@mystical
//Through reason – since that is the only possible//
That is as vague as it could be. It is only a faith that your current knowledge of reasoning is complete. The ancients had good enough reasons to believe that the universe is centered around Earth. It was observation and discoveries which out ruled that theory, for example.
//what I argued is a things existence is dependent on that which it is not or "Not A". //
There is no such requirement in the Law of Identity.
//Through natural laws, how else you think life came about then "intelligent design" their is nothing intelligent about that.//
But what are these 'natural laws'? Can you list them exhaustively? As far as intelligence in intelligent design is concerned how would you measure intelligence? Only based on your intelligence. Will you call a Autist unintelligent because she does things in a manner that isn't immediately discernible by you?
//Great argument since at least 1 planet in a universe where life is incredibly rare this means life on earth must by the result of a divine intelligence, great logic from the theist. //
🙂 . You can't deny the fact. You called it hostile and unintelligent, I showed you at least one planet that has life which came out of exactly these hostile unintelligent environment. You resort to rhetoric since you can't deny it. By the way, how do you know life doesn't exist elsewhere?
//The existence of life is not evidence of anything//
It is evidence of the fact that what you call unintelligent and hostile can and did harbour life.
//is the existence of a rock evidence of a God? No//
I think a Theist will argue even that is an evidence of God. But this is again rhetoric. That life is there is a fact that you can't deny.
//The only reason anyone could claim it is if they believe life is the result of a divine plan//
Yes. So? In fact if, as you claim, it is a reason, and as you yourself stated in the beginning that what is reasonable comes out through reasons, then the Theist position is definitely reasonable USING YOUR OWN OPINION!!
//Which is not logically possible//
Prove that. (I guess you will now jump to Cause and Effect and then we know which way it would go <span class="idc-smiley"><span style="background-position: 0pt 0pt;"><span>:-)</span></span></span> )
" how do you know whether something is reasonable?" Through reason – since that is the only possible way to know if something is reasonable.
"when you were trying to define A in terms of 'Not A's." I have never argued that "A" is "defined" by "Not A", what I argued is a things existence is dependent on that which it is not or "Not A".
"Then how do you explain existence of life? " Through natural laws, how else you think life came about then "intelligent design" their is nothing intelligent about that.
" In fact what you call extremely hostile conditions implies a specific, rare set of conditions which had the potential to generate life, since existence of life in at least one planet IS A FACT." Great argument since at least 1 planet in a universe where life is incredibly rare this means life on earth must by the result of a divine intelligence, great logic from the theist.
"Now calling it fine tuning may or may not be admissible" The claim the laws of nature are "fine tuned" for life is a joke their is no "fine tuning" anywhere.
" but existence of life is an unalterable fact and can be pushed as an evidence. " The existence of life is not evidence of anything, is the existence of a rock evidence of a God? No, so why then you think existence of life is? The only reason anyone could claim it is if they believe life is the result of a divine plan.
"not contingent on anything therefore the question is meaningless." Which is not logically possible and therefore such garbage doctrine can be dismissed out of hand.
I don't have an opinion on multiverse yet. It is possible.
Kabuki dance has nothing to do with Tandav. Check out this link to know what it is and why people use this term –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki_dance
@Shabeer
//Since they were firm on the religion//
Which simply means that they were motivated to wage war against others and increase their territory.
//During that era, victories were abundant, and enemies were ever more in a state of utter loss and degradation//
This has more to do with the fact that neither the Persians nor the Byzantines were : 1. Interested in what was happening in Arabia, 2. Were weakened by years of war between themselves, 3. Didn't consider Muhammad and the Arabs a threat and hence were not prepared for an assault. They over ran the very weak Sassanid empire and that helped them in establishing a large empire.
For this time I dont fully agree with alisina answer about Evidence of Soul, so here is my opinion :
1. About Soul and Evolution: Soul are not dependent to phisical, since body can die and decease, but soul are eternal. Then no relation between soul and evolution. Even if evolution are trully happening, each living creatures on evolution step, has only one specific soul, one lifetime, and one form.
2. Neurological disorder effecting brain and behaviour no doubt about it, also in this case Soul are not capable to take control of body. For example If any airplane have malfunction on the instrument and flying randomly towards danger, can you said that the plane is empty without a pilot?
3. Brain is functional matter, to process data, gain an input from our senses, and outcome an output from words and any body movement. Soul is our core judgement and the brain is our tools. Is there any super computer, can create a dream? create an idea?
Above all, for soul disbelievers, soul manifestation are happening anywhere in the world. Too bad may be you dont have a chance to witness it. I have witness it myself, how my sick father (on coma condition) his soul are amazingly visit his sister in the distance about 250 KM, begging her to come visit him for the last time before my father leave this world, with many witness, how can science explain this?
May God Bless Us All
Dr. Sina
If anyone wants to understand Eastern mysticism( Indian philosophy of spirituality) then I would like to suggest him to see Hollywood movies Matrix and Inception.
@Mystical
:-). how do you know whether something is reasonable?
//My logic is A=A this logic is based in reality//
That is the law of identity. Something you were going against just a couple of months back when you were trying to define A in terms of 'Not A's. I hope that there has been a course correction since then:-)
//Its" pure speculation" that the universe is fined tuned for life, when it clearly is not and is extremely hostile to life.//
Then how do you explain existence of life? In fact what you call extremely hostile conditions implies a specific, rare set of conditions which had the potential to generate life, since existence of life in at least one planet IS A FACT. Now calling it fine tuning may or may not be admissible but existence of life is an unalterable fact and can be pushed as an evidence.
//Well you have to answer why God fined tuned so it//
Which is dichotomous since you just said that you subscribe to A = A. You may as well read up the Anthropic Principles. Since Theist vision God as a free agent, and not contingent on anything therefore the question is meaningless.
@belligerent woman
Devil's deception is stupid concept and made for morons. Hell and Heaven don't exist.
Demsci, you must have lots of patience then.
Reincarnation is difficult to observe because it doesn't make sense at all for a the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body ie. human body or animal body.
How on earth can you claim that '"Originally Christians believed in the reincarnation" without checking if the contents of these two links are correct or not? Is this the way you conclude a matter? I doubt that Sandra Roger is a Christian. You should go and read about her NDE experience, her insights about religion, spirituality, evil and sin and then, you'll realize that it's not biblical.
Jesus
What is Kabuki dance of Hinduism ? Do you want to say Tandav dance of Mahadev ?
Jesus
Stop lying.Westerners are fascinated by Hinduism.Visit http://www.en.wikiquote.org/wiki/hinduism
'' I go into the Upanishads to ask questions." – Neils Bohr ( You must know him as you are Physics graduate.)
["The same is with Hinduism, it does not help people any longer to become higher beings. You see the Truths behind the curtain of Hinduism is inherent in Nature for all to see. Yet the Kabuki dance of Hinduism no longer reveals those Truths."]
First of all, I apologize for butting in! My understanding of Hinduism is quite different from Supriya's, but I am not sure I agree with your statement above. The Truths behind the curtain of Hinduism are certainly inherent in nature, but not everyone sees them. The Purans do indeed reveal those Truths but it is the people who have changed; they no longer make effort to decipher the stories and find the truths!
Humans have only become dumber ever since movies and TV were invented. Now they only live on what is *fed* to them. They have lost the mental capability to see what it is that is being revealed through Puranic stories. Of course, anyone who makes the effort does get to see those truths.
["Only the simple logic from the most consummate Scientist the world has ever had can lead you to a higher existence and that is the simple direct Truth of Jesus. Nature revealed by Jesus is what Modern Man will adhere to for growth."]
What is the "simple direct Truth of Jesus"? What is this nature 'revealed' by Jesus that the Modern man can not only *see* but also adhere to for growth?
"The point you're missing is that my statement contains no self-reference as did yours." In other words you cannot prove that statement, infant the statement is self refuting since either reason needs a "higher validation" with the only way to know if it is valid is through reason, or reason itself is sufficient and the "highest validation" these are the only logical possibilities, and in either case reason is still the "highest validation".
"I clearly said that reasoning requires a higher validation ,something you cannot provide.So you have reached the limits of your rationalizations and is stuck in a paradox." The only way you can validate anything is through reason therefore reason is "the highest validation". Their is no paradox, reason does not require a "higher validation", that is your (unproven and contradictory) claim. So please prove your claim that reason needs a higher validation and do this without using reason – something which is impossible.
"That's because you subscribe to a different set of logic. " My logic is A=A this logic is based in reality and I don't know what "set" you use.
"Your statement is pure speculation.We have not observed all of the universe." Its" pure speculation" that the universe is fined tuned for life, when it clearly is not and is extremely hostile to life.
"We have not observed all of the universe. " I never said we have, but from what we have observed virtually all of it is incompatible with life. Also this reasoning itself is wrong since it based on the false assumption that the universe exists for a purpose and that life is the result of purpose when clearly it is the result of blind natural laws and "purposes" are just constructs of the mind. This is what creations also claim they see a complex a life form and think it must be the result of purpose or "design" when in reality the purpose they see is just a projection on to nature from their own mind.
"Because the universe and life is eventually subject to entropy and decay therefore God does not exist." This is not what argued this is what I argued because the universe and life is subject to entropy and decay the universe is not fined tuned for life.
"Unless dualist scientists and philosophers stated that the sun and all life on earth must remain eternal,then perhaps your argument is valid. " Well you have to answer why God fined tuned so it would die, you also have to answer why most of earth even now is uninhabitable and why 99.9% of species who have ever lived have become extinct. Even on earth their is no evidence of "fine tuning" (quite the opposite in fact) let alone the rest of the universe.
"You've done nothing to refute that. " I just refuted it.
"If those laws don't need a cause then they're ( a) violating the laws of cause and effect and (b) generated from nothing" No the laws don't need a cause they are just a "brute fact" saying they need a cause is stupid or saying they are result of intelligence is even more stupid. Asking why the laws are nature are the way they are is like asking why a rock is a rock, its a non-question that is just the way reality IS putting a "God" to explain it, explains nothing at all and complicates it even more.
"Problems with these are that they're not grounded in logic and zero evidence." Their is zero logical proof for God and no reason at all to believe the laws of nature of the result of an intelligence.
"A non-material cause would solve this circular reasoning or infinte regression. " What on earth is a "non material cause" – another logically incoherent concept I think.
"So we finally agree,chance and nothingness cannot." Nothingness doesn't exist (by definition) so obviously it cannot produce anything nor can "chance" exist in a universe where everything is the result of natural laws.
Yes! Mr .Demsci , you are right about the movie .
Ancient Chinese used to say a journey of a thousand mile started with the first step .
Though Ail Sina is the not the first to make the first step ,he had achieved a giant leap in the fight against irradiating islam .
Demsci
Phoenix, I am perfectly prepared to accept the possibility, but I reject inevitability of that concept. Because, as the old controversy goes: Who then created God?!//
The concept of creation is subjected to cause and effect within time and space.The first cause would then exist outside of our dimension of space/time and cause and effect.So the concept of who created the first cause is as meaningless as time and matter itself.
==
And really, there ARE the other, equally plausible explanations of other FIRST CAUSES.go for a draw on this, but DON't side with the Muslims, who say Atheism/ Darwinism is absurd.//
The other plausible explanations for a first cause usually comes from western and eastren (hindus,buddhists,etc) philosophers but not from muslims because they're bound by a literal interpretation of the quran coupled with it being a complete book.So no new information can be dicovered or it must conform with the Quran.Philosophers call that saving the phenomena instead of saving the truth.
You are using reason (or some kind of reasoning) right there, so what you are saying is clearly false.//
The point you're missing is that my statement contains no self-reference as did yours.I clearly said that reasoning requires a higher validation ,something you cannot provide.So you have reached the limits of your rationalizations and is stuck in a paradox.
The concept of "soul" is logically incoherent so that is why I probably "don't get it".//
That's because you subscribe to a different set of logic.
Just answer why what we have observed that virtually all of the universe is incompatible with life?
Your statement is pure speculation.We have not observed all of the universe.
Also answer why even on earth 99.9% of species who ever lived have become extinct?Then their is the fact that our sun will eventually die and wipe life out on earth, what "intelligent designer" fine tuned that? Even more even if the majority of planets had life, that won't be around for ever since heat death is coming and all the stars and galaxies will die meaning no life possible anywhere. So who "fined tuned" that? No their is no evidence of "fine tuning" anywhere//
Let's start with your basic premise.Because the universe and life is eventually subject to entropy and decay therefore God does not exist.This is a straw man.It does not attack the actual premise of the dualist but a caricture of it.I fail to see the connection between the premise and the conclusion.Unless dualist scientists and philosophers stated that the sun and all life on earth must remain eternal,then perhaps your argument is valid.
Also I don't discuss fine-tuning with atheists because it's a theodicy which may be relevant among theists themselves.I made no other claims except that your claims are not grounded in logic and evidence.You've done nothing to refute that.
It more logically to conclude that those laws don't need a cause, since their is 1)No evidence to believe that (and certainly no reason to believe this cause would be intelligent) 2) Putting "God" their as with anything else where "God" is given as an explanation does not answer anything but only complicates it and raises even more questions.//
If those laws don't need a cause then they're ( a) violating the laws of cause and effect and (b) generated from nothing
Problems with these are that they're not grounded in logic and zero evidence.A non-material cause would solve this circular reasoning or infinte regression.
Chance can't produce such rationality." The laws of nature can produce rationality.//
So we finally agree,chance and nothingness cannot.
Thank you M. Sina
One theory says that our universe is not the only one. There are maybe an infinetely high number of universes (Multiverse). This theory also says that if there is an infinite number of universes then there is a very good probability that the laws of physics in each universe could have developed by chance. This also means that a different universe may very well be governed by laws of physics that are radically different from the ones governing our universe.
What is your opinion regarding the multiverse theory?
@Sam Sudhi,
Yeah, very interesting movie! But Tom Cruise had to DIE everytime before he could go back to 06.00 the same day. Sometimes very painfully. and when he broke a leg, Rita Safrasky shot him dead, because it was better to return to 06.00 and try again than to go on incapacitated.
But "every" Islamic fighter would probably die endless times" in order to get it right and let him and his cause win, like Tom Cruise died many many times but everytime got a little more successful.
But the whole concept is very unfair towards the opponents. Tom Cruise (major Cage) gets endless chances while the opponents remain in the normal condition, having only the one time to react to everything that they experience.
So "every warrior" would much like to have what Tom Cruise had, despite the many deaths, I think.
I agree with what you say here. I don't trust Science blindly and totally. It is just that i do think that there are different gradations of "probable truth/ falsehood". My method is to COMPARE and after comparing, and only temporarily, being open to new information, choosing the more probable theory when theories contradict each other.
//"He meant that it's rational to conclude an intelligent being as first cause because we live in a universe that is governed by physical laws that are mathematically structured.Chance can't produce such rationality."//
Phoenix, I am perfectly prepared to accept the possibility, but I reject inevitability of that concept. Because, as the old controversy goes: Who then created God?!
And really, there ARE the other, equally plausible explanations of other FIRST CAUSES. By all means, go for a draw on this, but DON't side with the Muslims, who say Atheism/ Darwinism is absurd. But only on the grounds that their position simply IS NOT PROVED EITHER, or proved more plausible.
//"The argument that everything happened by accident is patently absurd when you consider the probabilities."//
In around 1830 reverend Paley put forward the analogy of "finding a watch on the ground and then saying that that watch was formed by accident". That argument THEN and now still sounds very convincing. As one could say; """how could such an intricate design as that of any higher animal be formed by accident? That is just as absurd as a watch being formed by accident."""
BUT that argument was replaced by Darwin's theory. And it is much more complicated than just "everything happening by accident" but for argument's sake, let's say that that was what it boiled down to.
It seems that you Ali Sina, here REGRESS to that position of reverend Paley, in 1830, about """watches being found and judged "formed by accident""". Whereas I am used to you PROGRESSING, not REGRESSING.
At times Muslims use the reasoning of reverend Paley too, you know. And so at times you find yourself in agreement with Muslims versus the Darwinists and Atheists. Or maybe you are somehow "in the middle" between them?
"You need a higher or external validation in accordance with godels theorem to justify reason as the ultimate authority" You are using reason (or some kind of reasoning) right there, so what you are saying is clearly false.
"The rest of your post is rehashed stuffed we dealt with ad nauseam." No of the believers in the "soul" and "afterlife" have not dealt with any of it.
"We get it,you don't and can never believe in the existence of the soul" The concept of "soul" is logically incoherent so that is why I probably "don't get it".
"It's impossible to know this,unless every planet in the universe has been observed. " Just answer why what we have observed that virtually all of the universe is incompatible with life? Also answer why even on earth 99.9% of species who ever lived have become extinct? Then their is the fact that our sun will eventually die and wipe life out on earth, what "intelligent designer" fine tuned that? Even more even if the majority of planets had life, that won't be around for ever since heat death is coming and all the stars and galaxies will die meaning no life possible anywhere. So who "fined tuned" that? No their is no evidence of "fine tuning" anywhere.
"He meant that it's rational to conclude an intelligent being as first cause because we live in a universe that is governed by physical laws that are mathematically structured.Chance can't produce such rationality." It more logically to conclude that those laws don't need a cause, since their is 1)No evidence to believe that (and certainly no reason to believe this cause would be intelligent) 2) Putting "God" their as with anything else where "God" is given as an explanation does not answer anything but only complicates it and raises even more questions.
"Chance can't produce such rationality." The laws of nature can produce rationality.
//"That is funny because the Wahhabis ruling Saudi Arabia have destroyed the graves of Muhammad's companions and are planning to also destroy the grave of Muhammad."//
very interesting. According to Wikipedia that grave of Mohammed was shielded from proper scientific examination anyway. And critics may speculate that no real proof would be found that that indeed WAS the grave of the prophet of Islam Mohammed as "history knows him".
By all means, with "graves of Mohammed and his companions" at least Robert Spencer's book "Did Mohammed Exist" cannot be refuted. There IS and probably NEVER WAS evidence of said graves! (but there may well be other arguments in favor of the true and complete existence of Mohammed).
//"God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy."//
Shabeer, Muslims ponder such texts searching for guidance and inspiration. Many "kuffars" get guidance and inspiration from multiple other sources. And Muslims reject those, preferring Islam's sources, but so Muslims are "kuffars" to the other sources. And which sources are the truer and better ones?
And I am concerned about the factor TIME. God is central, HE is supposed to tell mankind through Mohammed what HE thinks.
So, is THIS what HE thinks, and is THIS ALL HE DOES? Mohammed and his early followers could be thinking that judgement day was not far off. But now, in 2014, we know that Mohammed was according to Islam the LAST prophet since 632 AD.
So the conclusion is that God SAYS he wants to teach mankind and make things easy for mankind, but that HE does PRECIOUS LITTLE after Mohammed about this goal.
Thank you God, for (almost) NOTHING. YOU, GOD, according to Islam, did SAY something about teaching and easy-making, but then stopped for 1400 years. Critical humans ARE NOT IMPRESSED with the performance of God on his own goal, in 1400 years (and counting).
I do believe in the Truths of Hinduism, they are inherent in Nature. What is dead and dying in Hinduism is the clothing, the archaic images to describe Truth. It's like the Truths behind Greek Mythology, they are Eternal, but the clothing has changed. No one follows Greek Mythology any longer because it does not serve Man's development any longer. The same is with Hinduism, it does help people any longer to become higher beings. You see the Truths behind the curtain of Hinduism is inherent in Nature for all to see. Yet the Kabuki dance of Hinduism no longer reveals those Truths. Only the simple logic from the most consummate Scientist the world has ever had can only lead you to a higher existence and that is the simple direct Truth of Jesus. Nature revealed by Jesus is what Modern Man will adhere to for growth. All other ways that are dying will only lead to destruction and death. Everything dies sir, even ideology.
We are immortal…we have always existed. Our bodies are NOT who we are. Reincarnation may be or may be not a lie. How do you know either way? The world of nature works cyclically. Is it not reasonable to know that the Man Idea is also cyclic?
Mr, Ali Sina, have read the books of Allan Kardec? Man I share many similar ideas with your point of view that I want to know if they come from the same source!
Originally Christians believed in the reincarnation
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.ht…
http://www.cinemaseekers.com/Christ/reincarnation…
science can neither prove nor disprove reincarnation. Science has no means of measuring the spiritual realities. Spiritual world can be understood through quantum physics. Understanding something does prove that thing. For example, we can prove that Bigfoot can be real. But it does not prove that such creature exists or ever existed. It just means it is not contrary to science or logic for Bigfoot to exist.
With quantum physics we can make sense of the spiritual world. We can show it is plausible and logical. But we cannot prove it. The only way to prove it is through observation. Reincarnation is difficult to observe.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are disproved by you Mr.Sina by proving reincarnation is true.
Skeptic Karl Sagan asked the Dalai Lama what he would do if a fundamental tenet of his religion( Reincarnation) will be definitively disproved by Science.
The Dalai Lama answered," If science can disprove Reincarnation, Tibetan Buddhism would abandon their faith……………….but it's going to be mighty hard to disprove Reincarnation."
Slave ! go an watch the Tom Cruise movie The edge of tomorrow.
Ali Sina will be reborn a hundred times and eventually he will kill the beast(that is islam ) .No hope for you because your alla is waiting to cremate your soul .Alla's business is cremating people in hell fire not creating soul ,you all are terrible mistaken .
long live Dr.Ali Sina… and write many articles like this.
@ FoT
That is what I said when answering question number 5. Some intelligent being must have devised the laws of physics. The argument that everything happened by accident is patently absurd when you consider the probabilities.
According to Muhammad heaven and hell are physical places and humans enter there with their bodies. The dead remains in the grave until the Day of Resurrection. Muhammad is also in the grave.
That is funny because the Wahhabis ruling Saudi Arabia have destroyed the graves of Muhammad's companions and are planning to also destroy the grave of Muhammad. Their argument is that no these graves may encourage Muslims to pay their homage to the dead which would be shirk. So once they destroy the grave of Muhammad, maybe Allah will have a difficult time raising his prophet from the dead in order to reward him. I bet that screws up everything since Muhammad is supposed to act as Allah's adviser and tell him who to reward and who not to reward.
Shabeer said:Muslim :: Book 9 : Hadith 3506
God did not send me to be harsh…//
Muhammad lied.Allah ordered him to be harsh. http://www.alquranenglish.com/at-taubah/quran-eng…
Surah (9:123) O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
Reason would be the only valid method of determining if something other than reason was foremost and since it would be reason that determines that, reason itself would still be foremost or the "ultimate authority" as you put it. //
Reason determines reason.This is the fallacy of self-validation.You need a higher or external validation in accordance with godels theorem to justify reason as the ultimate authority.So how can you prove reason and logic as the ultimate source for reason and logic?
==
The rest of your post is rehashed stuffed we dealt with ad nauseam.We get it,you don't and can never believe in the existence of the soul
==
Ali Sina said:When combined with the fine tuning of other laws and constants it becomes clear that the laws of physics require an intelligent being//
Then you responded:Their is no fine tuning 99.99999% of the universe is uninhabitable. Who fined tuned all the dead galaxies and who fined it that it will go to heat death?//
Your response has no evidence attached to it.It's basically an inductive fallacy.{Because some planets we observed other than earth contains no life forms,therefore all other planets in the universe contains no life}.It's impossible to know this,unless every planet in the universe has been observed.
Besides,I don't think that's what Ali Sina meant it's what you extrapolated.
He meant that it's rational to conclude an intelligent being as first cause because we live in a universe that is governed by physical laws that are mathematically structured.Chance can't produce such rationality.
@Shabeer
//Muhammad will be the first to enter paradise//
So Mo is yet to enter paradise. Hmm. Where is he now?
@Shabeer
//He has sent me to teach and make things easy//
Looting, robbing, raping and arson came very 'easily' to him.
Brilliant book.I read it back in 2000.While I'm not a fan of chick flicks or romantic novels (not that Many lives..fall in that category) ,I will definitely watch this one should they make a movie of it.The concept of soul mates finding each other against all odds is captivating.
Dr. Sina
Thank you for this blog.
Jesus
I think you should accept that you believe in Hinduism.
How do you silent your thoughts ? Does your religion Christianity allow you to meditate ( Dhyan) ? Did you see BBC documentaries( on YouTube) which show Jesus traveled India and used to meditate under the guidance of Buddhist monks ?
no, it is not. check his video about people on NDE: I like Ali Sina, we got the same conclusion about life although I have never read his website.
You should ask Ali which came first, the hen or the egg? I think that he should have no problem giving you the 100% correct answer to this super simple question.
Dear InsanelyUnoriginal, remain skeptical of the things this person believes and read the other side of the argument and decide for yourself who has reason and evidence on their side. Here I will go through his arguments.
"What about reason? Is reason the ultimate authority? Not even reason! False ideas are often upheld by fallacious reasoning. Observation is the ultimate authority, not science and not reason." Reason would be the only valid method of determining if something other than reason was foremost and since it would be reason that determines that, reason itself would still be foremost or the "ultimate authority" as you put it.
"A great number of these people (one in every six) awaken with memories of leaving their bodies," How come only a small minority only say they had such an experience? Don't the other people have souls?
" hovering over the heads of the doctors operating on them, visiting other rooms in the hospital and reporting accurately what they heard and saw vividly" Give us just one account that proves that and COULD NOT BE the result of conscious fraud, false memories or some other worldly explanation – no such case exists. "When they were supposed to be unconscious and dead." They were not dead, chemical reactions are still taking place in the persons brain – that's what keeps the brain alive, so that the person can be revived. Also f there was no oxygen in the brains of the patients then their brain cells would die, and they wouldn't be able to be revived. That's why they ensure that there is oxygen in the brain during the operations – to keep the person alive.
"These claims are reported by people of all ages and cultures. They number in millions. " That is because of the advances in modern medicine since the the 1960s as you say. This is no proof or evidence at all that these experiences are supernatural.
"but during the recovery, which the patient erroneously thinks happened during the death. This argument is also false." No its not, if their brain had died it would have been impossible to revive them.
"Out of body experience is real and is proven by the fact that the people experiencing it come back with verifiable information that they could not have in any other way other than through an OBE." Without the material senses of the body, how can the material world be sensed? What detects light from a position near the ceiling? And how does it detect light if it is not material?
" If your computer gets damaged, it won’t work. But the software is not affected. " Brain damage and drugs affect consciousness – which would not be possible if consciousness was "immaterial".
"Hardware damage does not affect the software." You need to explain why malformed or damaged brain structures also damage our mind – if our mind has nothing to do with the brain (which is what you believe).
" You need a hardware to make your software work." If our consciousness is not dependent on the brain then we would have need of the brain and damage to it would no have effect on us.
"It also makes more sense for God to be love than a sadist despot like Allah." Why is their suffering then? Their are only 3 possibilities 1) He is evil and sadistic 2) He is indifferent towards the wellbeing of conscious creatures and also maybe unable to recognize if a conscious creatures is suffering. 3) He has no power to stop it. In any case case such a being is not worthy of any respect or interest from humans and certainly cannot be called God but then again their is the other possibility that such a being does not exist and is just a figment of human imagination.
"When combined with the fine tuning of other laws and constants it becomes clear that the laws of physics require an intelligent being." Their is no fine tuning 99.99999% of the universe is uninhabitable. Who fined tuned all the dead galaxies and who fined it that it will go to heat death?
#He did not speak of soul at all………….
The Islamic views presented here are solely based on the following Qur'anic revelations and commentaries given by Allama Yusuf Ali. Mankind created from single soul:
"0 mankind reverence your Lord, who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath scattered countless men and women." ………… 4:1
"0 ye who believe Guard your own souls, if ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to God: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do." —5: 105
TO BENEFIT ONE'S SOUL:
"Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul, whoever works evil, it is against his own soul." –41:46
DEED AND REWARD:
"Every soul earneth only on its own account, no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God: He will tell you the truth of things wherein ye disputed (differed)." 6:164
"On no soul does God place a burden greater than it can bear (in terms of material wealth or spiritual duty)." —2:286; 23:62
"But those who believe and work righteousness, – no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear." 7:42
"On the day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil." -3:30
"Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds." 74:38
[Man cannot shift his responsibility to vicarious saviors or saints. His redemption depends upon the grace of God, for which he should constantly and whole-heartedly strive by means of right conduct. If he does so he will be redeemed. ]
"One day every soul will come up struggling for itself, and every soul will be recompensed (fully) for all its actions, and none will be unjustly dealt with." 16:111
[When the reckoning comes, each soul will stand on its own personal responsibility. No one else can help it. Full justice will be done, and all the seeming inequalities of this world will be redressed].
THREE STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN SOUL:
"And I do call to witness the self-reproaching Spirit." –75:2.
Our scholars postulate three states or stages of the development of the human soul:
1. AMMARA: Which is prone to evil and, if not checked and controlled will lead to perdition (total destruction, ruin),
2. LAWWAMA: Which feels conscious of evil, and resists it, asks for God's grace and pardon after repentance and tries to amend; it hopes to reach salvation;
3. MUTMAINNA: the highest stage of all, when it achieves full rest and satisfaction. The second stage may be compared to conscience, except that in English usage conscience is a faculty and not a stage in spiritual development.
SLEEP AND DEATH:
"It is God that takes the souls at death, and those that die not during their sleep. He keeps that (soul) for which He hath ordained death and dismisseth the rest till an appointed term. Verily in this are signs for those who reflect." –39:42
We can see more clearly many spiritual truths: e.g.
1. that our bodily life and death are not the whole story of our existence;
2. that in our bodily life we may be dead to the spiritual world, and in our bodily death, may be our awakening to the spiritual world,
3. that our nightly sleep, besides performing the function of rest to our physical life, gives us a foretaste of what we call death, which does not end our personality; and
4. that the resurrection is not more wonderful than our daily rising from sleep, "twin – brother to death".
Great article Mr. Sina.
I have only one simple question for you:
Do you think God created the rules of our Universe?
# Islam must be eradicated because it is the epitome of everything that is evil………..
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 38
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights."
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 396
Narrated Anas:
We were with 'Umar and he said, "We have been forbidden to undertake a difficult task beyond our capability (i.e. to exceed the religious limits e.g., to clean the inside of the eyes while doing ablution)."
Prophet Muhammad[s] send for peace of mankind:
Muslim :: Book 9 : Hadith 3506
God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy.
@Shabeer
Allah is final & ultimate cause behind all things. Ali Sina believes in Hindu philosophy that soul is un-created but as per Islam soul is created by Allah. Can you make understand this to non-Muslims?
Man is in a never ending search for the cause behind all
that exist in this Universe-right from the sub automic
particles to the gigantic stars and unfathomable depths
of galaxies and things beyond the bowl of night. But every time a
cause is found it so emerges out that there still remains a cause
behind that cause. This search goes on and on. But it does have an
end-when man reaches a `cause’ which does not have to have a
cause, a superior being without cause-ie., a causless cause. That
causeless cause is the end of man’s inquiry. In other words man’s
search for a cause ceases at this point. We do not find in this
universe any materialistic phenomenon without a cause. So it turns
out that the causeless superior being must be outside this Universe
and beyond material existence. Islam calls this primary
causeless cause behind all small and big, micro and macro phenomena
in the universe Allah!
But Islam does not teach that `Allah’-this causeless cause is
some conventional form of force or simple ordinary energy. The
real essence of God is beyond man’s comprehension and description.
Man knows the essence of that Divine being only through
His own divine revelations. However, the materialistic objects in this universe reveal and testify His ominiscience and omni pote And Cherisher
nce. The Holy Qur’an exhorts man to realise this fact through Who created man, out of
reason-unbiased and rational free thinking A leech-like clot’’ (Al Alaq: 1-2)
“Do they not look at the camels
These lines incite man to think freely about himself. He was
How they are made? nothing a few years back-just two unknown insignificant entities
And at the sky, fused together-first part, one out of millions of spermatazoa of
How it is raised high? the father’s semen and the second, an ovum produced from the
And at the mountains, mother’s womb to form the embryo. It grew to form a little mass
How they are fixed firm? of flesh. Inside the flesh bones started taking shape. Then the
skeletal from started building up. The bones of the skeletal sys-
And at the Earth. tem were then covered by muscles. Then eyes, ears, nose, arms,
How it is spread out?’’ (Al Ghashiyah: 17-20) legs and head grew at different rates in different proportions.
The Qur’an commands man to realize the Great Power Finally one fine day this great man appeared on Earth’s surface,
behind the wonderful design of the universe by discerning the in flesh and blood from inside his mother’s womb, absolutely helpsurrounding
nature. During the middle ages the Church’s stric- less, as one in crores. Then began his struggle for life!
tures prohibited reason as it would lead to atheism. Islam does Human body has various systems which are interconnected.
not subscribe to this view. Qur’anic verses teach man to make All these systems viz., skeletal, cardio-vascular, renal, reproducbest
use of his eyes, ears and brain to see, hear and think. tive, digestive, nervous, respiratory, endocrine & Excretive, func-
There is not even a single verse in Qur ’an which restricts man tion involuntarily.
from following reasons. As a matter of fact there is no other book The same power which caused the fusion of ovum in to the
which invokes human intelligence in such an inspiring manner. male sperm, its step by step transformation into a foetus, then into
The Quranic verses urging man to think and learn from nature a child and then to a full fledged human being, has also designed
and realize the invincibility of the Supreme Being, are thought- and laid out the most sophisticated, perfectly functional systems
provoking to a lay man as well as a scientist. inside the body. From layman living aimlessly to the scientist inHuman
being vestigating into the intricacies of human metabolism share alike
The first verses revealed to prophet (S.A) command: the abundance of the Creator’s blessings. The Qur’an asks man:
“Proclaim! (or Read!), “How can you reject
In the name of the Lord The faith in Allah? Seeing that you were without life Arrangements for the Survival:
And He gave you life’’ (Al Baqarah: 28) The Creator has arranged every thing that is required in this
The Qur’an reveals the secrets of man’s birth: world for survival of a new born baby. When it cries that throat
doesn’t get dried up; its body temperature is kept under control;
“Man We did create the water content of the body is automatically regulated; oxygen
From a quintessence (of clay) is breathed in and carbon dioxide is breathed out-and so many
Then We placed him such intricate and complicated body functions are designed and
As (a drop of) sperm regulated by our Creator. The mother herself carries the perfectly
In a place of rest balanced diet for the offspring. There is nothing to beat breastmilk.
It contains all nutrients and antibodies and antibodies re-
Firmly fixed quired for body growth and building up immunity against dis-
Then We made the sperm eases.
into a clot of congealed blood,
I am sorry, I forgot to mention the best book to start with.
Many lives , Many master by Dr Brian a weiss
@InsanelyUnoriginal (the one who asked the questions)
Nice article by ali must have helped you.
Here I am also providing you here few book names which can give detailed explanations of your queries. If you can’t find books then let me know I will mail you.
Destiny of souls by Michael Newton
Journey of souls by Michael Newton
Mail me if u can’t find the books, I will send you books on mail – [email protected]
Please don’t stop after curiosity satisfied on intellectual level. OBE is achieved by few on the wish basis.
//This could be your 80th reincarnation on Earth or your first. The Earth is one of infinite planets where we go to experience the material world.//
I couldn't believe my good eyes when I read this sentence that came from your head! Reincarnation is a lie and you can't differentiate between your left hand from your right hand. //Life is intended to be difficult and we choose the level of difficulty we would like to face here before coming.// Are you drunk? What level of difficulty are you referring to? That's exactly the reason why I confirm that reincarnation exists only in Buddha's finite mind. //There is suffering in this world. All creatures suffer. The suffering seems real. But once we shift our focus back to the spirit world this world seems like a fun game, and its suffering is what makes it exciting and challenging.// My dear Ali, do you know why is there suffering in this world and how suffering came about? The answer will lead and guide you to the ultimate truth that rebirth/reincarnation is a lie.
You have Spiritual Experiences everyday!! You just need to tune into them. You're body is a product of God, your Being(who you Really Are) is a Part of God. Silent your Thoughts and Just Wake Up! Simple Really.
Great article. I guess, nobody will comprehend it fully unless they have some kind of spiritual experience. I believe
this is one of your best writings.