Nowhere to Turn to
This letter was sent to my friend Pamela Geller of atlasshrugs2000.com
Dear Pamela,My name is Phoenix, a 32 yr old from Malaysia. I got your email from the Refuge from Islam website. I apologize beforehand if my email has no relevance to you or to your cause. It’s just that I have no where to turn to to find answers.Anyway, I was born a Muslim in Malaysia with a Muslim parents (my mom was actually a christian converted to Muslim). Since I was small, I have been raised, or at least tried to be raised as a Muslim. However, deep inside me knows that it is not for me and I really find it hard accepting Muslim teaching and living a Muslim lifestyle. I have since very young wanted to break from this cocoon of Islam being part of my life but it is a difficult journey when you are living in a Muslim majority country. Even though I am registered as a Muslim, I have never really live a Muslim life. I am more of an Agnostic kind of person if you may say. The trouble I have is that living in a skin of Muslim and actually being an Agnostic is really eating on me. I tried not to be a hypocrite but it was so hard doing so. In fact, beginning of last year, I started seeing a psychiatrist for depression.Until recently I made some really serious thinking about getting my religion renounce and changing my name legally. However, after doing some research on the Internet, it seems like a painstaking process. In fact, its a process that may cause me my liberty, not to mention the prospect of being prosecuted. If you have not known, to renounce from Islam (in Malaysia), one has to submit an application to the Sharia Court for proceedings and they will determine whether I can or cannot renounce my faith. I do know that there are thousands like me that has submitted their application and apparently a few percentage of them has been approved.My concern is, do those who had or had not been approved are being subjected to any types of penalty, fines, punishment? Is there actually any successful application? I tried looking for those who have successfully renounced their religion legally but failed. In fact, I tried surfing the website faithfreedom.org and several other websites but I think the government or at least the ISP have blocked these sites.I wanted to reveal this to my psychiatrist but are not really sure. He’s a Muslim himself but I believe he’s a more open-minded person. I did open up to him about my sexuality though. My family knows very well about my sexuality and they sure knows well that I don’t practice Islam, but I haven’t told them about my intentions of renouncing my religion legally. I mean, I really have nothing against Islam or other religion, it’s just that it is hard for me to believe in something I don’t, what more being forced to believe in it!Do you think I should open up to my psychiatrist? Do you think it’s the right time for me to do it legally ere in Malaysia or should I wait a few more years? I’m really confused. It’s really hard living a lie and I certainly don’t enjoy being a liar.I hope you can help with some advice. Hope to get your reply soon.Sincerely,Phoenix
Pamela forwarded your email to me and I take the liberty to respond.
The first thing you should know is that you are not alone. There are millions, not thousands, but millions of ex-Muslims who live in Islamic countries and keep their thoughts to themselves. We are not at a stage to come out of our closets yet. Islamic countries are still dangerous, very dangerous for apostates.
But thing are changing rapidly. More and more Muslims are leaving Islam silently. We are destroying the foundation of Islam. You see the edifice is standing. It still looks towering and intact. But don’t be fooled by the appearances. In a short time it will collapse. I know of apostates living in Saudi Arabia who are part of the ruling elite that are cautiously moving the country away from Islam.
By keeping your disbelief a secret you are not being a hypocrite. You are part of the underground army of ex-muslims. Secrecy is our strategy. We reach to Muslims, break their chains, while they are still pretending to be Muslims. When our number reach a critical point, which will be in a few short decades, we’ll rise up and suddenly you’ll see that many people around you who pretended to be Muslims were not.
Of course you’ll feel lonely. I suggest you join online communities of apostates. You can do a lot more for our cause if you are not discovered. If you reveal your disbelief, you’d put your life in danger. There is nothing we can do for you if you live in and Islamic country and are caught. You can be persecuted and your human rights denied. You can be shunned by your friends and family and you may lose your job. There is no gain in putting yourself through this much trial.
If you keep your disbelief a secret you can awaken tens of people through the Internet, not the ones you know, but people from other countries. If each ex-Muslim awakens a few more people, in a short time we’ll conquer Islam. This wasn’t possible before, but with the help of the Internet, it is now.
The help that Pamela is offering is limited to those whose life is in danger and live in a western country. Generally, these are teenagers who fear their parents may kill them. One such case was Rifqa Barry. Even then, it is not easy. There are legalities that have to be overcome.
If you live in an Islamic country, your safety is in your hand and the best way to remain safe is to keep your mouth shut.
Instead of feeling depressed feel happy because you are beating the Muslims at their own game. Muslims pride themselves to be deceptive, or what they call taqiyah. Denial of it is part of their deception. Their god is also a deceiving deity, khairul makereen. So imagine that you are part of an army of ex-Muslims, fooling the most deceptive people on earth. This should put a smile on your face. Every time you fool a Muslim into thinking you are a believer, don’t feel bad; smile for having fooled him. Our day will come. But we have to play our cards wisely. Remaining out of harm is the most important aspect of our fight against Islam.
I don’t think you should tell your psychologist about your disbelief. It is not prudent. Hippocratic Oath doesn’t mean anything to a Muslim doctor. As long as they believe in Islam they can do a lot of evil things to you and destroy your life with clear conscience.
Wish you happiness.
If converting from Islam is so easy in Malaysia, why the permission from Sharia Court is needed? Don't just talk BS by saying you can leave Islam if you want to. The truth is, when you become a Muslim in Malaysia you could never leave. You have two options if you want to leave Islam in Malaysia, either you keep your mouth shut or migrate to another country e.g. Singapore, Australia, etc.
And talking about moderate Islam, there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Malaysia has always been saying it practices moderate Islam, but on the other hand Muslims are raiding churches, seizing bibles and telling others how to practise their faith. You can read about it: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/articl… http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/articl…
There is nothing moderate in Islam. If someone is saying I am a Muslim and I can tolerate with other religion, either that person is lying or doesn't fully understand Islam.
Do you know sinas phone number? ^^
//Hehehe…you're talking like sina//
I am talking like myself:-). It may match Sina's style at times and words on other times.
Hehehe…you're talking like sina 😉
//Problem is, i dont know whos english is worse, mine or yours//
That is absolutely not the problem. You don't have to make any assumption about my English prowess. If I have a problem there are many in this forum who would turn out to be generous enough to help me out. On the other hand even if your English is poor, you can produce the best possible English translation with confirmation from somebody in your vicinity who you trust to be a more proficient speaker of the language. I am sure there will be few almost anywhere in the world. Or you can produce from the already published works, I am sure those had better understanding of Arabic than you or I will ever have and they certainly knew the language they were translating into.
//So either u speak my language, or i speak your language. Simple, isnt it?//
The simplest thing is explained above. However you may try with your native language and tell me what it is, I can try to arrange for somebody who can translate it for me
Problem is, i dont know whos english is worse, mine or yours lol but im sure one of us. So either u speak my language, or i speak your language. Simple, isnt it? ^^
//Problem is, i wanted to give arabic ayat, but i knew you wouldnt understand. So i chose some translation from many translations which i didnt know how much ur understanding in english from all. Im sorry i cant measure ur language comprehension yet. Thats why im asking you to teach me your language. Would you teach me? You are a nice man, right? You dont mind helping me right?//
If your English is problematic according to you, a language in which you are still communicating with me, in which you have posted thousands of comments then where is the question of doing justice to those verses in another unknown language. If you think the translation you have produced are wrong then simply point out where they are wrong. Thats the most logical thing to do!!
Problem is, i wanted to give arabic ayat, but i knew you wouldnt understand. So i chose some translation from many translations which i didnt know how much ur understanding in english from all. Im sorry i cant measure ur language comprehension yet. Thats why im asking you to teach me your language. Would you teach me? You are a nice man, right? You dont mind helping me right? ^^
//We are talking in english about arabic//
No, we aren't talking about Arabic, we are talking about a particular verse in Quran, 3:7, based on an English translation THAT YOU HAVE PROVIDED. If you think the translation is wrong you can produce the most apt translation that you can think off (and also explain why your first translation was wrong).
//We need ONE language.//
And English is that language. After all it is the language most people understand on this forum and if there are some gems to be unearthed out of that dirt, it should benefit as many people on this forum as possible and that can be only achieved using English on this forum.
As I said if you think that there are allegorical verses whose meaning only Allah knows then why don't you produce such a list. And if you don't have such 'marker' verses the utility of Q3:7 is completely lost:-). What if 3:7 is one such verse whose true meaning only Allah knows, for example? Quran is full of such idiotic paradoxes.
Of course a problem, sir. We are talking in english about arabic, and we both speak other languages too. We need ONE language. If you dont want to learn arabic, ill learn your native language. ^^
//To both, sir. The first problem is you dont understand arabic. //
tsk tsk. This isn't a problem at all as I am referring to your own translation. You can always say that your translation was wrong or as you are wont of saying Dajjal 🙂
//The second problem is i dont know your native language.//
This also not a problem since my English is not really poor. OTOH I am almost sure that I will understand most of what you say in English:-)
The second problem is i dont know your native language. So that i could explain well. I dont mind learning your native language. Or do you want to be language teacher? ^^
To both, sir. The first problem is you dont understand arabic.
//I already knew you wouldnt//
Wouldn't what? Give the English translation of an Arabic phrase that you have yourself posted in one of the comments above? How foolish would that have been? Don't answer this last question, it is beyond you to understand. The inherent inconsistency has already been explained by me. If there is something that which only Allah knows, ie not even Muhammad knows, then the best of people will also not know the meaning of those verses. 3:7, clearly says that the person of understanding (your beloved phrase comes here) believes that the whole set, that is all the verses of Quran, has come from Allah. The operating verb here is 'believes' not 'knows' :-). On the contrary the inquisitive person, one who wants to realize the essence of any particular verse, which is allegedly allegorical, will be termed as a person lacking understanding!!! Thats the logical paradox Muhammad build!!! It is plain to see. Can you even list down all these allegorical verses? I had asked the same in another comment, you were unable to list them down. Why don't you asked your most respected Sheikhs exactly which verses are allegorical in Quran and whose meanings we can guess but can't say with any degree of surety since only Allahs knows its true meaning?
I already knew you wouldnt, sir. 🙂
//Please give definition of Ūlū Al-'Albāb//
I think you yourself gave the meaning in another comment. As I just said, the translation in any other language doesn't absolve the Quranic verse of the inherent contradiction.
//i wont force you to use ur native language//
This may shock your Islamic mind, but you can't force anything on me 🙂
*coughs* okay, i wont force you to use ur native language. 🙂
Please give definition of Ūlū Al-'Albāb
//Please translate these using ur native language//
Q 3:7-9. You have given the translation yourself in English and my English isn't really pedestrian :-). Irrespective of which language I translate the contradiction won't go away, if ONLY ALLAH knows something ("Wa Mā Ya`lamu Ta'wīlahu 'Illā Al-Lahu") , then the people of understanding, however efficient they be can't know its meaning:-). However 3:7 actually further says: "Kullun Min `Indi Rabbinā" ie "We believe in it. All (of it) is from our Lord." So it actually says that the men with understanding should blindly say that all of the Quran is from Allah. Now if a person says this blindly then how can we even say that (s)he is a person of good knowledge? Actually this is the cunning of Muhammad. He is saying that if you suspect that this isn't from Allah then you aren't a man of knowledge else you are a man of knowledge!!! FANTABULOUS!!!
"Wa Mā Ya`lamu Ta'wīlahu 'Illā Al-Lahu"
"Wa Mā Yadhdhakkaru—- 'Illā 'Ūlū Al-'Albābi"
Please translate these using ur native language 🙂
people with understanding = 'Ūlū Al-'Albāb
Are you? 🙂
Read carefully please,
Huwa Al-Ladhī 'Anzala `Alayka Al-Kitāba Minhu 'Āyātun Muĥkamātun Hunna 'Ummu Al-Kitābi Wa 'Ukharu Mutashābihātun Fa'ammā Al-Ladhīna Fī Qulūbihim Zayghun Fayattabi`ūna Mā Tashābaha Minhu Abtighā'a Al-Fitnati Wa Abtighā'a Ta'wīlihi
"Wa Mā Ya`lamu Ta'wīlahu 'Illā Al-Lahu"
Wa Ar-Rāsikhūna Fī Al-`Ilmi Yaqūlūna 'Āmannā Bihi Kullun Min `Indi Rabbinā
"Wa Mā Yadhdhakkaru 'Illā 'Ūlū Al-'Albābi"
Contradiction. "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah" and "none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.". 🙂
If only Allah knows the hidden meaning then even the people with understanding will not grasp the message. Rub your nose elsewhere.
"Islam is strictly against false religions."
Science's most important guiding texts also are against false religions. But Islam wants to forbid it's competitors, playing false, because of giving Islam unfair advantage. Science is content with equal rights for all religions, to let the best one win on it's MERITS. Trusting mankind to choose wisely in fair competition.
"Prophet said in his last days that there should not be any religion except Islam."
Democracy's most important thinkers, leaders did not say that there should be no other societal system than their own (and Islam does present a distinct societal system) over mankind.
" Islam does not allow any religion which teaches 2+2=3."
Both Democracy's and Science's most important guiding texts would allow such a religion, trusting that 2+2=4 is more true and more convincing to reasonable people than 2+2=3 and that most people have the capacity to be reasonable.
Since Islam seeks to disallow, forbid, does it not have the confidence to win in fair competition?
Does Islam not have the fair play attitude that Democracy's and Science's most important guiding texts display?
Democracy's and Science's most important guiding texts even allow for improvement of 2+2=4! Islam intends to stop at it until judgment day, even if that comes in the next century or later.
"we as ISLAM don't force you anything."
You identify yourself as Muslim and you speak for "Islam". To all other humans who read your message, whom from your standpoint are "infidels", "unbelievers", "ignorants".
One alternative for Islam (or it's political societal part) is the principle of organising, maintaining and perfecting a complete democratic system in most countries and Muslims can be "infidels", "unbelievers", "ignorants" in that or parts of that.
Another alternative to Islam (or it's life-explaining part) is what science teaches. Science is changeable, improvable, while Islam has immutable texts, making it per definition rigid and conservative. And Allah is not helping one bit in 1400 years to improve, update, adapt Islam's texts and doctrine. Many Muslims are "Infidels, unbelievers", "ignorants" in parts of what science teaches.
Christians and other religions offer a comprehensive alternative to Islam. And Muslims are "infidels, unbelievers", "ignorants" in that too. And according to Christians it is Muslims who go to hell.
All those alternatives do not force Muslims to do anything essential in faith. If people are born into these alternatives for the religion of Islam they are allowed to become an "infidel, unbeliever" "ignorant" according to them and Muslim.
But Islam has immutable most-important-guiding-texts. And Muslims are not disciplined in favor of a definitive, clear, comprehensive interpretation of these texts. Never are self-confessed Muslims, speaking and acting in the name of Islam, thrown out, as heretics, of the Ummah. Never do Muslims in disgust secede from the Ummah whilst so many Muslims in it contradict blatantly what they (the other Muslims) believe and tell the world. Resulting in widely different interpretations and practices of these texts.
This destroys all credibility and trustworthyness of one Muslim saying what Islam will allow or tolerate and makes a mockery out of what one Muslim says it will allow. Such a Muslim ONLY speaks for the interpretation and practice of Islam by him/ her or his/ her GROUP and (s)he should be honest and realistic enough to say as much.
Ali imran : 7
"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."
I just replied to slaveofprophet who quoted the Quran 9:29 saying Allah wants Muslims to fight everyone else until they convert. But you says Islam does not force anyone. Why is it that you Muslims can't even agree what your religion say? Why there is so much duplicity and deception in Islam. Why you can't say two words without one of them being a lie?
@slaveofprophet //Islam does not allow any religion which teaches 2+2=377
Only Islam has copyright over making 2+2 = 5.
Islam is strictly against false religions. Prophet said in his last days that there should not be any religion except Islam. Islam does not allow any religion which teaches 2+2=3. Allah himself declared in Quran only follower of Islam would be in eternal heaven rest will be in eternal helfire.
//we as ISLAM don't force you anything.//
In Islam majority countries the non muslims are treated in a manner that conversion remains the only way out of the pitiful existence. See the state of Hindus in Pakistan or the Parsis and Iranis who had to flee Persia!!
if you want to convert..just convert and follow this people..we as ISLAM don't force you anything..
It was great to read about the Muslim girl and the experiences she had while growing up. It is a common trend to be religiously inclined but when it becomes too much it results in the complications of mental health. visit the site
Only 2% of Australia is Muslim and to the distaste of the far right, Australia is a multicultural country as it has always been (Read the history of Australia)
The ''Creeping Sharia'' and ''Islamiaztion of Australia'' is nothing more then Hysteria of those on the far right not getting there own way in abusing Muslims, removing mirgrants banning Islam kicking the poor and hating anything that is not white or aboriginal
Many people just go about there lives no matter what religion, race, political view ect but there are many on the far right who just have to go out of there way to cause harm to those on the left, Muslims and others who do not agree with there extreme views
What should be of concern is: Rise in crime, drug trafficing, drug users (Rich people using cocaine) rise of those trying to decriminalization / legalise drugs, staving the poor, blaming the poor, welfare and migrants for all the problems, harassment and slander of people who do not agree with hurting others and are ''square head'' sleeping around and the drunken behavior of many.
Rapist, child sex offenders (the worst violent child sex offender in Australia free to walk around under supervision rather then being in jail) , murders, those who assault others ect not jailed and being free to do these acts time and again, police corruption, corruption of the law and no justice for victims of crimes
Shall I go on ?
This is what you worry about and stop not the ''Creeping Sharia'' or the ''Islamization of Australia'' When will the far right learn to not use the minority as the blame for the countries problems and ignore all of the real problems plaguing Australia and the rest of society
Freedom? To hurt others and think you are justified to do so because of being manipulated by others and being to lazy to not want to learn as you and many others are relying on none fractal information rather then finding and studying the information yourself
Ignorance is the disease of the intellect
-From A Random Subbotnik
Australia is quickly becoming Islamised and sharia compliant, with it’s leftist multicultural media drones pumping out all their PC nonsense and the cultural diversity mantra spoon fed to them by the Socialist bone heads in government.
If this creeping Islamization of the West doesn’t get halted soon, then there won’t be anywhere left for anybody to escape the clutches of the totalitarian theopolotical ideology of Islam.
The future of freedom and liberty is most definitely hanging in the balance, so we must all work together to ensure that the world isn’t lost to the evils of Islam.
Why bring in Jesus here? We are discussing this cruel cult called Islam and how to extricate people from it….Anyone is free to join Christianity and leave it without fear …..it's only Islam that is a problem today .
I'm from Malaysia, and I'm no longer Muslim, I understand your situation it is hard to declare yourself as an apostate in here, it can danger your life and having JAKIM and all the shits religious department won't help either. My advise to keep low, or migrating somewhere else. I'm moving to Australia, to save my kids from indoctrination of islamic thinking. Good luck to you, expose yourself when the time is right or else just keep low and be frends with lots of non muslim, that will save much time from being hypocrite, and have to pretend as you are good muslim infront of muslim friends.
Yes, salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved. His name is Jesus Christ. Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.
Ask Jesus to help you by calling his name, He is the only one can protect you. Do not let anyone hear you when you are talking to Jesus.
Marry a non-Muslim one.However,if anyone cannot convert,it is possible the future genaration can be again the victim of Mullah thoughts.So an alternative way should be find out to replace them or to give them security by pressure from the Human Right organisations on the respective Goverments.
Have you tried mixing a little bit more with the non-muslims? Remember, the nons in Malaysia have been facing no less oppressions and intimidation from the Muslim majority. You'll find them more sympathetic and understanding … I suppose this will help taking your mind off the thing that's bugging you right now.
And since talking about your real problem with your current Muslim psychiatrist is a BIG NO-NO, I see no point in you continuing with the consultation. If you really want professional help, seek it from a non-Muslim.
Just as what has been advised by Dr Ali Sina, keep your apostasy a secret. I am sure you know what they will do to you … forcing you into endless rounds of rehabilitation and messing up your mind.
Cheer up! See this as an enlightening phase that you are going through.
Don't worry, you'll be fine.
Slomo is right. You are just trying to justify the Muslim point of view.
We are talking about Islam and muhammad….not else….go somewhere else if you want to discuss Jesus and Christianity…..you just showed us a very typical real muslim answer…
@ John K
What if I say to you that Jesus being God is a man-invented belief initiated by the people around him to justify their non-protective respond when seeing a prophet about to be crucified?
Dr. Sina is the only one I have seen with a real plan – get his book out to help individual Muslims.
He does not need luck. He needs justice and protection from Islam. Because Islam does not care about these people.
Being a muslim is like joining a street gang or mafia. You can get in, but you don’t get out. His only sin was being born to a muslim parents.
I know. It’s a big problem. Islam does not recognize the basic equality in humanity.
The rest of the world has to come up with something to address it somehow.
Unfortunately Sharia claims authority over Muslims who want to leave Islam. Applying to a Sharia court for permission to leave Islam is extremely dangerous.
If you read the Quran, you will see that Allah is an invention of Muhammad to justify his criminal behavior.
If you read the Qur'an, you will see that Allah (swt) hasn't any need for his creatures to conform to his wisdom…And it says clearly there is no compulsion to believe…If the only rational conclusion for you is to apostacise then go for it for as I said before Allah (swt) doesn't is free of all needs; worthy of all praise. And, I'm sure as sure as hell you won't be missed and yes there are millions like you who would love to welcome you into their fold…Gd luck mate – you're going to need it….
It is hard to denounce Islam in a country as bigoted as Malaysia. But why denounce it? You are not a muslim if you are not a muslim.
Just play along. I have somekind of muslim friends who only see themselves as “born-muslims”. Nothing more.
And why would you need a shrink to tell you who you are not (a muslim)?
Why depressed at all? Leaving Islam is a blessing.
I know what your psychiatrist will say. He’ll tell you to see an imam and restart your vile Islamic cycles again.
But if you really want to denounce Islam badly. Technically, Malaysian sharia law imposed only to muslims. So, EX-MUSLIMS SHOULD BE EXCLUDED.
But there is a chance that you might be fined, jailed and lose your career maybe racially disowned.
This is an oppression. Islam is an oppression.
But you can not be something that you are not. A piano can not sound like a guitar. If you want to go through with it, go for it!
I know it’s a bad advice. But Lina Joy is a freedom fighter. She fought for her right to denounce Islam. You should too. Anyhow you do it, it is entirely up to you.
IF MALAYSIA CAN NOT AND WILL NOT PROTECT YOU; THE WORLD MUST, WILL AND SHOULD!
Universal Declaration of Human Rights; Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
You can follow Malaysian counter-jihad issues with the Anti-Jihadist here:
He also is a regular contributor to Jihad Watch here:
You are definately not alone, and even if you were alone, so what? I think the whole purpose with our existence is to learn to survive on our own. Actually, I don't think you need a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist will not set you free. Only you can do that. I guarantee that you will be happy when you realize that you don't have to depend on anyone and certainly don't have to worry about the future. Life is too short to worry and be depressed. Live as if you were to die tomorrow, but learn as if you were to live forever.
Now Phoenix can turn to ex-Muslims and join their secret army.