What if God Exists?
Dear Friend Dr. Ali Sina,
I am a muslim. I am one of your fans. I read regularly your websites.
What if I believe that god does not exist but after death
suddenly I find that there is God. Then I will be a loser. I will
have nothing to rectify my situation then.So is it better for me to wait until God is proved? I want to be
in the safe side I want to believe in God. Will this be Ok?Thanks and regards,
Maruf
Hi Maruf,
The question you are posing is known as Pascal Wager. The seventeenth century mathematician Blaise Pascal formulated his pragmatic argument for belief in God in Pensées. The argument is as follows:
If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).
According to Pascal, regardless of any evidence for the existence or inexistence of God one would lose nothing in believing in God while one may lose everything if he does not believe in God.
The problem with Pascal’s gambit is that even if we assume that God exists, we can never know which religion is the right religion. Let us take Pascal’s fate. He was a Christian, but if Muhammad was right then Pascal would be sent to hell despite his belief in God because he did not believe in Allah and his messenger.
Now, let us say Pascal converted to Islam. But what if when he died he found out that Allah is not God and Muhammad was a liar? Then he would be sent to hell.
The problem compunds when you remember that Muhammad said his religion will be divided into 73 sects the followers of 72 of these sects will be sent to hell. How do you know which sect is the right one?
The same is true about Christianity, Judaism and other faiths. There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don’t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can’t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can’t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.
Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can’t.
If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful? Will He be merciful and forgiving or one who orders his prophet to kill people, loot them and rape their wives. Assuming God exists, it can’t be the Allah of Muhammad. Allah simply does not have the divine qualities expected in God.
Would a wise and loving God send people to hell and burn them for eternity because they did not believe in something that made no sense to them? On one hand He gives man intelligence and then he sends a prophet that says stupid things that defy that intelligence and then he sends those who question his balderdash to eternal hell. Let us say such god exists. Is he worthy of worship? Of course not! This god is a miserable sick being.
Pascal was wrong when he said it is better to wager on the belief in God because in that way we don’t lose anything. Of course we lose. We lose our freedom. Freedom is what makes us humans. When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.
You can also be deceived if you don’t believe in God. All these New Age movements are nothing but deception. Since people have stopped believing in God and churches are becoming empty, charlatans have found other ways to fill their pockets and contol people.
Now, you can believe in God, but know that he is not sending any messages via third persons. The message of God is in every atom in this universe. It is all around you and the key to understanding His message is through science.
God does not play favoritism and does not speak to any person more than others. His message is universal and for everyone. You can understand the message of God just as fine as anyone else. You don’t have to follow anyone. Observe the universe with inquisitiveness and scientific mind and you will see the message of God all around you. As a Persian poet said, every leaf of every tree is a book of the knowlege of God.
The problem is not the belief in God. The problem starts when some individulas claim to be messengers of God. Then they demand obedience and submission and all they do is mislead people with their lies and cause disunity and hate. Nothing divides mankind more than religion.
Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don’t do to others what I don’t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him, God is not a narcissist as Muhammad depicted him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.
I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds. And yet this sick man, Anders Breivik who massacred 77 youths in Norway kept reading my articles and quoting from my book and claimed to be my fan and still did not understand the core of my message.
A few days ago I received an email from someone saying that since we are “sheep” (good people) and our enemy is wolf (bad people) and since only a wolf can kill a wolf, we “the solders of light” should be prepared to do “dirty work which might seem evil or violent to the ignorant eye.”
I was nauseated after reading his email and gave him a piece of my mind. I have no patience and no respect for evil people, and those who advocate violence and hate, even though they calim to be my fans. How can people misinterpret everything I write and go about doing so much evil and smear my name by claiming to be my supporters?
I have no association with evil people. I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don’t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.
It is okay to believe in God, but believe in a god of love and not in a god of hate. The belief in God can be a great motivator. But let it motivate you to do good and not evil.
The following is written by a reader posted as comment. I copy and paste it here because I believe it should be read.
Dragoste7 wrote that she would correct Pascal Wager and instead would say, “If you Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you don’t Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you don’t Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose everything (eternal damnation).”
I think that makes a lot more sense than Pascal’s wager.
Christians controlled media hid many things about Islam. http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/35…
In fact Islam is the only religion that spread to many nations in 7th century where Christianity need to wait till 15-16th century to spread throughout the world.
God exists. And we know prophets were sent to give prophecy. And from the prophecies, we can filter out what is false and what is of truth.
Lets look at the warning of God of Israel towards Children of Israel about a new/unheard God in Deuteronomy 13.
Paul brought a totally new version of Triune-Oneness God that differ to the One God preached by gentile prophet Noah and all Israelite prophets. That is why true followers of Jesus (Nasoreans/Ebionites) condemed Paul for falsifying the teachings of Jesus about One God. The punishment to those who believe in a such new version of God is death.
Deut 13
…If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7) gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8) do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9) You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people…15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely
Wow, In five decades I have not found this to be true.–> "The problem compunds when you remember that Muhammad said his religion will be divided into 73 sects the followers of 72 of these sects will be sent to hell. ..The same is true about Christianity…"
Christians, in general, believe that other Christians are saved, and but that it is ultimately up to God to decide, of course. Have they turned away from sin and put their faith in what Jesus did for them? –emphasis on the latter. Is there fruit? The diverse numbers of protestants and even all the Catholics –that I know, believe we differ only in non-essentials. Being a Christian has nothing to do with what location you are in; not a building, region, nor country—not even a family. Therefore many are called Christians when they are not. See who the founder called his diciples.
It is dreadful for me to have born in this world and not know God. And I found mine. Jesus of Nazareth, who loved me so much that he took my place at the cross of calvary and saved me. By his death he gave me eternal life, by his wound I am healed, by his poverty I am made rich and behold he is lifted up at the right hand of of His Father, the God and there will I be with him. He made me a new creation with a new nature which is eternal. I am absolutely sure as to where I am headed and I will spend my eternity with him beholding his glory forever and ever. Herein lies my joy,…eternal joy which nothing in this world can take away. It is all light and not a cloud of doubt. I thank my God of my salvation for creating me and bringing me into this world and leading me into His Joy and Peace to enjoy his richness forever and ever, Amen.
We are a group of volunteers and opening a new scheme in
our community. Your web site provided us with valuable information to work on.
You have done a formidable job and our whole community will be thankful to you.
@All
Why people adopt atheism?
Most people when they refuse to believe in God are actually refusing to accept superstitions in name of God as propagated in name of religion. The anathema of West against God is only for the God of Bible, Quran and Hinduism. This is justifiable because God of Quran has many contradictory properties and at times acts like a mortal human being. But Vedic God is different. In fact God may not be the right word to denote the Vedic concept of Supreme.
The Vedic concept is much more intuitive and natural – that there is a source of unchangeable laws of the world that govern this world and us. Physicists may simply call it Law of Nature. Now a smart Vedic follower adds a dash of positivity into this and says that this source of unchangeable laws is acting in a manner that we can enhance our happiness through right actions. We are neither left in lurch like orphans nor allowed to escape fruits of our action. So there is a well-founded optimism that the laws of nature ensure justice and support. We believe so because we see this very obvious in world around and in our innate tendencies.
But someone intellectual who was nurtured in a society that had completely different notions of a Supreme entity – an anthropomorphic entity, or a moody emperor, or a magician etc – may find such a God hard to digest. And it would be difficult for him to dissociate word God from this meaning and give it a new meaning in perspective of Vedas. For example, Arya is a very noble word. But in Germany, people would somehow try to link it with some sort of racism because of the Hitler episode. These words trigger certain emotions due to their previous associations and hence difficult for many to appreciate any new meaning easily.
Thus atheism is a natural and rightly-directed aversion of a truth-seeker from what his mind considers as unfounded notions. So in being atheist, he or she is STILL acting as a loyal follower of Vedic religion.
In other words, a truth-seeking atheist or agnostic or even a superstitious believer in some other notion of God is STILL a Vedic person, if he or she believes in these notions honestly after whatever experience, expertise, intellect that they possess at a given moment in time.
Very nice post!
Dear Ms Ali Sina, the truth is that Truth doesn't care whether you like to hear or believe it or not. The absolute truth cannot be altered to suit your personal taste at all. The problem with some people is that they like to sugar coat the naked truth while they are still alive and well but we know that this is truthfully wrong because at the end of life journey, we have to face the ultimate truth that we are all spiritual beings and there is life beyond the grave when we step into eternity. Heaven is real and so is hell. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, these two eternal places are real! I wonder when will an atheist like you come to your senses and realise that it's so foolish to believe in nothingness? Atheism is not enlightenment but foolishness in the eyes of those who have gone through near death experience.
Part 2.
As a Buddhist I believe in different planes of existence including ones labeled hell and the divine abodes. What the nature of these are, is not as I would imagine, since all that I can imagine is limited by what I experience as a human being. Indeed what is the human realm, this I do not really understand either. But understanding it is what I have been talking about, and also the Path leading to this, which is the fourth of the 4 Noble Truths. Those other realms, being sensuous realms just as this one is, I can have better understanding about therefore, through studying the nature of the mental and physical phenomena that make up my life as a human being. So if I were to point to the existence of those other realms, I'd suggest also that in essence, they are no different from the experiences we have now. Hell is where one experiences much physical pain through the five senses and the divine abodes is where there is much pleasant experiences.
Now, this is already so hard to understand and convince anyone else about. When pointed out to the fact that all that can and needs to be understood is what appears to the consciousness “now”, there is very strong resistance and people drift off to one or more of their cherished beliefs which gives them pleasure. How then can one expect that using as tools those concepts based on wrong understanding will lead one day to the Truth? Impossible! Indeed you end up inevitably reinforcing the wrong understanding and attachment to a new set of beliefs if not those old ones.
Yes, there is no need to prove whether or not there is God. The question does not even arise for one who is a student of reality. But pointing to this Truth or reality is the only solution, is it not? Failing this, would we not end up simply replacing one set of wrong beliefs with another?
The good that I see in your position Mr. Sina, is that as it is with most of all the major religions, you appreciate the value of good deeds and the harm of evil. What you and all religions outside of the Buddha's teachings (not Mahayana but only the one derived from the Pali canon), end up inevitably falling prey to, is having wrong understanding with regard to the way things are. The reference to God is one example of lack of Right Understanding and the influence of wrong understanding. So too, is the person who has ended up believing that science holds the key to the knowledge with regard to the Truth. Science is built upon concepts and does not hint even slightly, at the truth, as far as I'm concerned.
Believers in God are obviously not enlightened and neither are atheists. But you and I have different meaning with regard to the concept. To me only a Buddha could teach the Truth and therefore only those who follow his teachings are on their way to enlightenment, although I won't be surprised that no one alive today, is actually “enlightened”.
This is already too long Mr. Sina, so I'll stop.
Ps: It looks like this discussion should not take place here. I'd suggest therefore that if you are interested in discussing further, we can do so off-list…?
<end>
Part 1.
I appreciate your response, but feel a bit hesitant now to proceed with this discussion. This is because I believe that you have not come across the interpretation of the Buddha's teachings like the one I come from. But let's see what happens…
Yes good is encouraged because it is wisdom which leads the way, and this then makes wisdom, the highest good. I do not like to think in terms of people having high and low level of awareness, since I see each mind moment as conditioned by various factors and people as having accumulated all kinds of wholesome and unwholesome tendencies from way in the past. And with regard to what has been in my own case so far, I live in ignorance all day with the little wisdom being only at the level of an infant, although this is enough to recognize many of the grosser expressions of wrong understanding made by other people. In general however, I'm no different from anyone else.
Regarding teaching about the Truth (with a capital T), the question is, do we ourselves know what the Truth is?
There is according to the Buddha's teachings, the Four Noble Truths. These point to all there is in reality, anything else is concept i.e. the product of thinking. The first and most important step therefore, is understanding the reality vs. concept distinction. The levels at which this and everything else which follows is understood is three, namely, intellectual, direct and penetrative. This means that when expressed, all these must conform to the other.
With regard to the first two of these Truths, namely Suffering and the Cause of suffering, this is all that make up the experience of beings, including that of humans and animals. In the case of animals it is ignorance all the way through, but only. In the case of a human being however, unless one is only a child, there is also wrong view / understanding, and this is worse than when its mere ignorance. Ignorance blinds, but wrong understanding misleads.
This means that we do make statements about reality all day, such as I feel pleasant, I am angry, I am sick, or the flower is beautiful etc. Only that these are conditioned invariably by ignorance and sometimes by wrong understanding as well. The wrong understanding which has failed at making the reality / concept distinction and ended up taking all those experiences for "self".
When we then want to point to someone else the Truth, the reference point must be “now”. Any parable and metaphor must be aimed at directing the attention to the realities that make up our moment to moment experiences. If it leads to taking concepts for reality and to proliferations in terms of the past and future, then it must mislead.
<end part 1>
Good must be done for its own sake. Its reward is in the very act of doing it. This is clear to you and to those with higher level of awareness. I have talked about this in some of my articles. However, not all people have the same level of awareness. Just as our intelligence is different, so is our awareness.
When you have a readership as diverse as what Internet offers, you must speak in not one, but many languages. We do that every day. You use different concepts and different lexes when you speak to an academician than when you talk with as toddler.
I sometimes talk about God, paradise, hell and even Devil. I don’t believe in any of these, but they are useful concepts to get my message across to those who are familiar with them.
My goal is not to prove the existence or inexistence of god, but to stimulate rational thinking. This is an ability that comes with training. Once people learn to use it, like a tool, they can discover the truth on their own. I don’t want to show people the right way and be their guru. That is a very persona journey and everyone is capable of doing it. For that they need is learn how to use their rational faculty. That is what I hope to achieve.
Furthermore, I don’t believe that believers in God are any less enlightened than atheists.
Coming in from the Buddhist perspective, I say that any position we take is not without consequence. Belief in God is associated with wrong view and this can never lead to any good. The suggestion by Mr. Sina that, "The belief in God can be a great motivator. But let it motivate you to do good and not evil." is misleading.
Good is done for its own sake and increases by virtue of understanding it's nature and at the same time, that of evil states. To refer to God takes one away from the possibility of this ever happening, and makes any motivation, simply another psychological technique aimed at a particular result. This means that anyone who believes in God and continues to do good deeds, does so not as a result of the belief, but in spite of it. But the good will not develop and increase, and one day may even change since no understanding with regard to the nature of the different mental phenomena has happened.
So it all comes down to the development of right understanding with regard to the nature of phenomena. The suggestion that rational thinking is key is therefore misleading as well. Without right understanding any reasoning ends up only supporting one kind of wrong understanding or the other, as is apparent in the case of Mr. Sina.
I'm not trying to discourage him from doing what he does, in fact after coming upon his website (just this week) I sent a link to two of my friends. The only thing is that I wish Mr. Sina would do what he is doing with right understanding. Because otherwise it is replacing one kind of wrong view with another which in the long run is just the same.
Dear Maruf
I am now returning to my roots which I have abandoned and re learning again how to be a Christian. It is a personal choice and I can say that I am quite happy with it. Isa al Masih a.k.a. Jesus talked a lot about good things and is generally a good man. Again that is a personal choice.
I read your replies and questions and I feel your burden because there is a need for you to believe in God to ensure your "safety" – Here is my take or advice if you will
1. The fact that you are reaching out and debating here means that you have already lost faith in Mohammed and Islam. so, in your heart, you are almost "free". Why not make it entirely free
2. When I was a non practicing Christian I told My wife that the reason is because I don't want to believe in God anymore because of all the killings and quarels in his name and there is a good chance that he does not exists.
I told her a simpler version of Pascal's gambit and mine is like this. In this life time, I make sure that I live it is as best as I could. I don't kill, I don't cheat, I don't lie, I don't steal, I don't bear bad witness to my neighbors, etc etc and I acknowledge that there is a powerful being that I believe will reward me for my good deeds. My default stance is I don't believe in God. So when I die:
A- If there is no God, then I am alright. But I still have lived my life honorably and people that survived me i.e. my sons, wife, friends, etc will always say he was a GOOD Man
B- If there is a God and after I cross border and went into the light there he waits for me: I will then say…Look man. I am sorry that I didn't believe in you but you got to acknowledge that I did alright and was a very good boy. IF he punishes me despite being such a good boy just because I don't believe in him… then there and then I WILL KNOW what a F**king asshole he is and I will tell it to his face before he sends me to hell…But You and I know that it will not happened because the TRUE God, (if he existed) will actually pat me on my back and said well done son. You are truly a good man and wellcome to my party
advice coming from Tea, ummmmm no thanks i'll pass.
What qualifies you to be a shrink all mighty Teatotal?
Yeah that's why we fear to be free or express ourselves or criticize our religious leaders…
God fearing Christian is just an adjective to a pious christian just like in some countries they say kleenex instead of tissue paper knowing that Kleenex is not a word definition to tissue paper but a famous company that manufacture it.
God Fearing came from old Jewish description, but there is no real fear like scared or terrified or anything in Christianity.
I'm not going to lie, many Christians are afraid of god but most of those are uneducated, can't write or read, they come from poor countries and are being manipulated by rich corrupted religious leaders.
You have no clue TeaTotal
"Both Atheists and Christians are not weak because they do not fear God " ?!
Atheists don't even believe why should they fear of nothing?!
God fearing Christian => About 7,250,000 results Google?!
Anything will work but Anti-Islam this is the agenda. ha ha ha
I have only said people who are opportunist in belief are weak. I think there is bit problem with you not being christian but psychological one.
BTW read Maruf in comments section. Later on we will go for finest possible treatment for you.
Thank you. I am glad you liked it. This debate is becoming so long that I wonder if anyone reads it.
Wow i just noticed the modification on the article 🙂
There are no words to describe how i just felt 🙂 🙂
Thank you Dr. Sina 😀
We are not Weak! Both Atheists and Christians are not weak because they do not fear God and they dare to live their humanity.
As a Christian i believe in my God and do not fear him or death. Unlike you, I know my God and without hesitation100% sure of what i said in my previous post.
You're the weak, Muslim. So weak and afraid that you dare not to question your evil cult led by Satanic Mo!
You are in no position to judge Maruf. At least he dares to question Islam.
Read Maruf in comments !
God of Love? God of Hate? Is this a challenge to Omnipotence ?!
There might be some more coming up God of manipulation, God of hypocrisy and even God of Atheists
Maruf is a moron and Pascal Wager too. When you suspect God and your belief is this much dismantled to be opportunist on just believing . You really don't believe He exist.
Why we need to believe God? If it's lie why this universe universally lied ? Are we some bubble on sea filled with air coming out from no where and will burst to no where ? How believing God end uncertainty? These questions are good rather than safe side weak psychos.
Dr Ali Sina you are amazing just the way you are 🙂
"The problem starts when some individuals claim to be messengers of God"
"Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don’t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule"
Dr Sina keep up the good work and being a human using his brain and heart. I know you already figured it out but I say it to confirm: You have nothing to fear in this life or in the afterlife 😀 . And I'm a Christian saying that.
" I have been saying all along that beliefs don’t matter, what matter are our deeds."
I too have been saying that all along to everyone including some misguided Christians who think that salvation is only for believers:
" Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21
and that will is : "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 13:34
Conclusion: believing in God does not save us, believers also believe Satan exist so "Believing" is not what we should place our bet on. Being good humans and loving others will save us. THE GOLDEN RULE WILL SAVE US.
Dr Sina said: "It is okay to believe in God, but believe in a god of love and not in a god of hate"
on the god of hate he said:"Let us say such god exists. Is he worthy of worship? Of course not! This god is a miserable sick being."
So Dr. Sina and Jesus(who I believe is god) inspired me to correct Pascal Wager:
If you Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you don't Love and live by the Golden Rule, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you don't Love and live by the Golden Rule, you lose everything (eternal damnation).
Maruf and others don't you ever believe out of fear for only a god of hate feeds on fear and in that case it's better not to believe at all. Hope this helps you too 🙂
You understand thus considerably with regards to this topic, made me in my view imagine it from numerous varied angles. Its like men and women don’t seem to be involved until it is something to accomplish with Woman gaga! Your personal stuffs outstanding. At all times deal with it up!
You haven't answered my questions, maruf. :p
Dr Ali Sina, the world is waiting dying to know from you if Mr Walid Shoebat, Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are right about Mosab Hassan Yousef's double facet. Please go to FFI and let us have your most sincere comments about this controversy. Thanks. 🙂
Dear John K, don't you know that a thin foundation is better than the foundations of lies? It's very sad to know that a pretty smart bird like you is too dumb to see through the lies of that cult which is built on the foundation of all kinds of lies and weird teachings.
Dear Dr Ali Sina, I'm glad to know that at least you've got the right sense to conclude that Baha'u'llah was wrong in his beliefs and teachings though he was a good man.
You said, "The problem with prophecy is that it can be interpreted in any way you like. The two chapters you mentioned are pretty vague. Yes Jesus repeats those words on the cross, Elohim lema sabaqtani, but that is because he had heard them recited many times."
Come on, Dr Ali Sina, if I prophesied that you will have a son by tomorrow, please tell me how you can interprete my prophecy in any way you like? Were the two chapters vague and not clearly written for your understanding? Is your knowlege and understanding far worst off than a little child? Which joker has the cheek to tell you that Jesus cried out 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani' when He was hang on the cross, is because he had heard them recited many times? May I know who is 'them' as per your claim? Don't you know that Jesus Christ is the Word became flesh and He had a great mission to accomplish while he was walking on planet earth?
I would say that God uses natural laws above our level of knowledge and capability rather than that he supercedes them.
Prophecies and miracles are very thin foundations for belief.
Hi Matt,
The problem with prophecy is that it can be interpreted in any way you like. The two chapters you mentioned are pretty vague. Yes Jesus repeats those words on the cross, Elohim lema sabaqtani, but that is because he had heard them recited many times. wouldn’t you say the same if you find yourself in trouble? Does that mean Isaiah prophecized about you?
Now if you believe in prophecies, I invite you to read this page. http://www.alaska.net/~peace/bahaullah.htm Here you see Baha’is make a pretty compelling case that Baha’u’llah was foretold in the Old Testament and even named by Jesus. They quote passages from Daneil that show the exact date of the appearance of Babi and Bahai religions. These prophecies are far more convincing than what you find in Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. So if we accept the two chapters you mentioned as evidence we must accept the calim of Bahais too. They are a lot more precise.
Now Baha’u’llah’s teachings are not bad. They are actually quite advanced, which fit into our time. The problem is that Baha’u’llah accepted Muhammad as a prophet of God and I know for a fact that is not so. So, if he was wrong about Muhammad, why should I believe in anything he said? The fact that Muhammad was a false prophet is beyong proof. If anyone says otherwise that person cannot distinguish between right and wrong, and hence the Bahai faith cannot be true.
The problem with prophecies is that none is clear and without ambiguity. You can find “prophecies” about anything in any book, and interpret them as you wish to validate your belief.
Ali,
Considering that your life is probably in constant danger for the work you do, I don't know if you're still seeking the truth about God, despite being a non-believer. I assume you've probably already been told about the evidence of divine inspiration in the Old Testament, in the form of prophecy (such as Psalm 22's "crucifixion experience" and Isaiah 53's "pre-gospel" of Messiah). If these sorts of things no longer affect you, I can't say I blame you, after being around God-cons so long. Nevertheless, my heart goes out warmly towards you, and I have prayed on your behalf to the King I know personally. Stay safe, my friend. Thank you for all the work you have done.
Sincerely,
Matt
Maruff,
Why do you think memerizing the Quran is a mystery? This is absurd. There is no mystry in memorizing anything.
In some cultures in Africa or in Amazon people paint themselves. What is the mystry of that? Is there a mystry? Of course not. It is part of their belief or tradition. When people believe something is important they do it. Muslims think memorizing the Quran is important so they do it. There is no mystry in this. When you ask these kinds of question one wonders about your ability to think rationally. The question is not rational at all. I know you heard this silly argument from Muslims but that is a silly argument.
Anyway I don't know why you don't want to visit the website anymore. But if that is you decision I respect it. If you change your mind you are always welcome. This is a great site. To learn about ones religion the most,
is to hears from the mouth its critics . My only wish for you is to know the Truth. May God bless you in your quest.
Ria
Does memorizing Quran break any natural law. Natural law is if as many people make and effort to memorize something they will success in doing so. I my opinion there is no miracle in memorization of anything because God is not the one who performing the act and humans and making the efforts. The result of the human effort of memorizing Quran is incredible but not a miracle that proves Quran is divine in origin. There origin is in question not the preservation.
I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I know many Christians who memorize large part of Bible. But the benefits they have in memorizing is these verses are, they easily retrievable and they can apply to their specific situation even if they don't have a bible at hand. They can help themselves and counsel others who are in need. However no miracle is claimed only practical knowledge and wisdom. Their memory power is amazing but it not a miracle that proves Christianity is true. THE TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY DEPENDS ON WHO GOD IS, NOT ON WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE CAPABLE OF.
What is a miracle? It is when the impossible happens.
Biblical definitions of Miracles are those acts that only God can perform; usually superceding natural laws. Miracle occurs to show that the power behind it is not limited to the laws of matter or mind as it interrupts fixed natural laws.
There are many miracles in the Bible, I will give you a select what came up as top 10 when I did a Google search.
1.Creation
2.The resurrection
3.God stops the sun when Joshua prays
4.Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead
5.Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
6.Crossing of the Red Sea
7.Balaam and his Talking Donkey
8.Jesus Walks on Water
9.Ten Plagues of Egypt
10.Jesus Exorcises Legion
These lists are exhaustive in Bible but the point is God is in the business of impossible and these events list above have broken at one principle of nature. For example it is impossible for a man to revive a dead man after couple days, but is possible for God to do the same. Because he is God and to be human mined it difficult to comprehend therefore it is a miracle.
How ridiculous. I gave you a very long list of finds on those links, of varying quality from 2nd hand references to solid finds of people who have articles on them on Wikipedia. You're a real basket case.
You have the right idea. We can't judge our success by whether or not someone accepts our ideas now, because, as you say, further down the road the memories of our words can come back.
Yes I know that, he is not looking for an answer. Even if I say everything that is true ,he will still feel that he has won, because we were not able to convince him to change his mind. For me we don't have to win him, but what we succeed is to plant a seed and someone else will give it time and water it will grow. Therefore helping with the cause with Dr Sina in a small way even if planting a seed in one persons heart will be contribution. Hopefully one day he will truly understand what a miracle is.
Therefore I want to give it a last try to answer Marruf. Also he was not condensing and he conducted himself very good here unlike lot of others Muslim who just engage in name calling and hate mongering. I have hopes for brother Marruf.
Hi john,
You said ""This is clearly false as I have shown you ample instances of people who have memorized the Bible. ""
I browsed your instances/ links found nobody.
''From our perspective, the problem is your brain is short-circuited with Muslim programming. Get an anti-virus program to clean the infection from your brain, then reboot to see clearly.''
Saying a Muslims brain has short circuited is this being respectful to your fellow man and not insulting Muslims ? (A claim you said you were not doing )
Saying Muslims religion (Islam) is a virus you do not know this as you have showed your lack of knowledge on Islam,the Muslim people, history and countries they used to live in and what they currently live in today
John K said ''Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar, and the Quran says your God is a liar. The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan. ''
''Allah = Satan ''
OK first ''Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar''
You say someone is a liar do you know this Muslim at all ?
Islam was based on a liar because a few extremist think it was so it was ?
Again name calling
Second: ''and the Quran says your God is a liar.''
Read learn and study before stating complete wrong facts about a religion
Third: ''The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan.'' ''Allah = Satan ''
''Do the math Maruf. You are a follower of Satan''
Who are you to play God ?
Most Muslims, Christians and Jews know that they all worship the same one God I know it might be hard to accept but that is the truth about it so stop trying to justify abuse on the Muslim people
About the Allah is the devil do I have to link that funny video again ?
The math is simple most Muslims, Christians and Jewish people know they worship the same one God only the few believe what you and others on this site believe (the 1%)
But Many know that this 1% does not make up the entire Jews or Christians who believe this none scene on this site (Allah is the Devil)
As the small 1% of Muslims who are terrorist do not make up the normal everyday Muslim
You try and use an example of math but you and others constantly say that the 1% of violent Muslims represent the other 99% just going about there lives hurting no one
Even going so far to make claims that they are a terrorist in the making if they are Muslim, if they are hurt they brought it on themselves for being Muslim, books banned, Ban the practising of Islam,force removal of Muslims from none Muslim countries, force removal of the face covering, lying about other countries to justify invading them
What thinks you all have the right to make these comments about innocent people?
The world will not let any fanatic justify abuse of an entire religion or people
-JSOP
He doesn't want to get any answer. You don't have to answer him. :-).
Marruff I want to think about the answer….give me day !
"your answer will probably be my last visit in this site."
Your presence here has been a great disappointment as you have demonstrated no real willingness to learn and you have resisted material that has been presented to you.
In your brain.
God gave you one.
Islam disconnects it.
"I have questioned Mr. Ali Sina, John K, enlighten 25 about the mystery of quaran memorising. They all failed to answer the question."
Enlightened25 is right. You have a strange definition of "fail" because all of us have thoroughly proved you are wrong about this. From our perspective, the problem is your brain is short-circuited with Muslim programming. Get an anti-virus program to clean the infection from your brain, then reboot to see clearly.
"I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word"
This is clearly false as I have shown you ample instances of people who have memorized the Bible.
Why are you a liar Marufff? It's bad enough that you are deceived by a fraudulent religion.
Do you really find it impossible for you to win an argument without lying?
That just proves your religion is false, because you cannot defend it with honest arguments.
"the book is 3/4 size of the bible." Another lie. My Quran is less than 400 pages, and it includes extensive citations from the Sira and Hadith. My Bible is 1590 pages without the Appendices. That makes the Quran about 1/4 the size of the Bible. Then if you just want to count the Old Testament, it is 1184 pages, which is three times longer than the Quran, and the Old Testament was memorized by chanting by Levite priests in far greater numbers when producing written copies by hand was more difficult than memorization.
Why do you have to lie again? Your religion was founded by a liar, you are a liar, and the Quran says your God is a liar. The Bible says Satan is the Father of Lies. That means your God is Satan.
Allah = Satan
Do the math Maruf. You are a follower of Satan.
I already answered that just because someone can memorise something does not mean it is divine. You yourself admitted a hindu you know memorised a lot of the koran. "I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word and the book is 3/4 size of the bible." Nonsense pick up any book, read the first page over and over again and then try and recall it from memory. If you do that you will soon progress though the whole book, this is what the muslim kids do and it takes them a few years before they can memorise the whole koran. This is the Explanation of the "mystery" of memorising the koran, nothing supernatural about it.
Dear John,
Where math of sin, justice and mercy could be found.
Dear Ria,
I am long waiting getting response from you. I have learned many things from you. During my course of learning I have questioned Mr. Ali Sina, John K, enlighten 25 about the mystery of quaran memorising. They all failed to answer the question. Say that understanding is better than memorising. I also know it but it is also true that memorising the whole book facilitates preserving originality of the text.I have known that it is the only book in the world which is possible to memorise word by word and the book is 3/4 size of the bible. Could you please tell me the mystery. Hearing your answer will probably be my last visit in this site.
Yes… So what is the end?No matter what, No Christ no peace! Christ is the only source of peace.
NOT REALLY , WE DON'T need God to set standards for good or evil. Golden rule is good enough to set the standards. You can read Dr. Alisina's views on golden rule.
It will be helpful.
o.0
Matthew 11:28
28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
"I would be hateful if he did not do any horrific crime and me just calling him all the names above."
That's the point people miss. It's not hateful if you are telling the truth.
To toil day and night yet to find no peace! The burdens are heavy laden and yet the sweat of your brow touches the ground. Day and night passes, weeks and months passes, and years. Do you see end, do you see peace? I tell you all you all see nothing. But ask this what id the end result. Once a very wise man said that he has seen it al, he has eaten, drunk, merry, chased women, had many children, many riches and the list goes on…yet in all his pleasures and satisfication, joyness and sadness… his life was not full. He says there is nothing new under the sun. So as the wise man say… there is nothing new!
Yes I agree to that, that's what Maruf is been doing. He just was not looking for any other religion, he was looking for any other superior religion. Well when you already make up your mind what is superior in your mind, no one can change your mind. Marruf follow the liar, looter, lunatic, pedo, in name only prophet to hell. And in there you can discuss who is superior or better religion.
I would be hateful if he did not do any horrific crime and me just calling him all the names above. But you will not able to deny and justify his action. You can just pretend his perfect and has no sin.
Right. So sort of a subtle strategy to put Islam on top.
This Maruf is asking for a replacement to Islam and then goes "tu quoque" on the presented religion.
He 'wants' to hear something in replacement of islam and then pull out the "you too" gun.
Its Georgics. I was finally found it in the wikipedia search I made on the day I read about it in the ffi.
Thanks for the answer.
"move along – nothing to see here… "
That's why they move, right? :p
How lucky for them we don't apply sharia punishments here!
Fitna is worse than killing. 😉
This is what gives an underlying taste of plotting and methodical sowing of fitna to his posts. Abdullah Ishan followed the same pattern, but Maruff is not as obvious, so it is difficult to be certain of his sincerity.
Playing the memorization card is somewhat like playing the magic card, as if there's some divine process guiding and aiding this Quran memorization phenomenon, which is really pathetic since most people who memorize Quran don't understand the words they are memorizing anyway. It's really a means of social control to prevent people from spending time doing useful and productive things.
You have expressed a personal preference. While I respect it, it is not a proof. Truth is better than fiction. It is better to accept the truth whether it is pleasant or not.
Maruf, you didn’t prove anything because you have avoided my questions about life and death. When you failed to answer the query your opponent gave you already lost. It’s that simple. You said that theism is better than atheism. In your own standard, bounded by your own very self, yes but it won’t solve the problem I presented here and its diversity. :p
Not really, the Quran is just words and words have the same difficulty when comes to memorization no matter what language you are using as long as you do that just to memorize its sound. You can see other memorization in Hinduism or Buddhism.
I start to doubt your sincerity of searching other religions. You should know it by now if you were serious.
Can you explain it? What is logic Maruf? I sense that you don't understand what you are talking about otherwise you would answer my logical questions about life and death before. :p
One thing that I don’t get it is the similarity between Islam and eastern religions including Buddhism or Hinduism despite the fact that Quran is clueless about it. Apart from the hajj tradition which required them to dress like a monk with shaved hair of course, it also has memorization. Buddhists or Hindus memorized their scriptures too as a part of studies and preservation.
The chant happened because there was no technology sufficient enough to store it. The same happened with the Arabs at that time.
:p
This is logical conclusion and memorization is not logical solution for divine preservation. 😉
When will you discuss the problem eh? Shouting right and left about unclear statement like this won't prove which sect is right or wrong. :p
You have not proved that theism (let alone islamic theism) is true.
Dear enlightened25,
I have already proved that theism is better than atheism.
Wizzard, You have been brainwashed by Islam since your childhood. That's why you are fighting tooth and nail. Just like once English people proverb : "Right or wrong : my country".
If you were born as a Hindu or any other faith than Islam, would you be able to find the truth about Islam and Quran, too? Would you see any beauty in Quran?
I have a querry about Islam, If Quran is from an Omniscient being , designed by Al mighty Allah as a guidance for mankind, why did He make it unclear? Why is it hard to understand by us as His creation?In fact there are so many sects in Islam.
If you think other religionr are fake. It is very likely that Islam is a lie too.
"The chance of Allah being God is nil. However, let us assume that Allah is god. Will you be saved if you believe in him? Not according to Muhammad. Muhammad said his religion will be split in 73 sects, the followers of 72 of them will be sent to hell. IN Reality Islam is split in hundreds of sects. Do you know which one is the right one? So even if you believe in Allah your chances of going to heaven is really very low."
What do you mean which sect is the right one.. that is what Allah has given you intelligence for…
And also the quran.. which is protected by him.. and how do i know this.. because i questioned it..
If you take the time to study all the religions.. and search for the right one.. you will find it.. but if you are too lazy, do you think you deserve to go to heaven…
Most people are too lazy to look for the truth.. and gladly accept whatever anybody tells them.. coz they feel then they have a chance..
Where did you get your info on islam.. from some muslim.. from some molana.. from some muslim priest.. whatever..
We have to seek the truth ourselves.. and use our intelligence.. but if we have this attitude.. like yours that you deny it… then you can't be deserving of heaven..
Read the quran.. but the translations are not 100% accurate and the devil does his work too..
but seek the truth.. and when you finally reach the real quran.. the real meaning.. you will know its from god… no human is capable of such speech.. and you will be convinced of gods greatness. thereafter if you accept him.. you must believe that he knows more than you.. that if he instructs us to do something its for our benefit…
even if we don't see it.. coz we are narrowminded and can't see the future..
I'm sorry for people like you.. that base their opinions on what they think they know, by hearing it from a third party.. you haven't studied quran for yourself… or else you would know it to be the truth and the word of Allah..
some people must have told you stuff and it didn't make sense…. so you took the extreme and said its all bullshit.. when instead you should have investigated for yourself.. as i have done .. and found out that what they were saying is a load of bs.. but its from their own mouths and not the word of god… and what Allah says.. you will know to be the truth.. and you will know it to b good and beneficial..
but whatever.. do what you want.. and see for yourself in the end..
Why do I get the feeling you are talking about yourself? Look in the mirror and say those things to yourself. The experience might give you enlightenment.
We criticize ideas. You put down and insult people, myself particularly. This must be a sign of some deep jealousy on your part.
What truth?
Why do you think it is a truth?
No i think your silly question is one of the biggest jokes ever. To prove your claim you have to prove all of these things 1)God exists. 2)Allah exists. 3)Allah is God. 4)Allah sends messengers. 5)Muhammed is his messenger. 6)That the koran is the perfect word of Allah and can have no mistakes.
If you can prove all of that then you will have proved that the koran is special. The fact that people memorise it is not proof of anything. Futhermore i can prove that God does not exist, and if you ask for the proof i will give it to you.
Dear enlightened pundit (scholaress},
Your answer to my question is "Whatever the reason"" may be the best joke of the year.
John K said ''The trouble with you is that you make wild accusations without any familiarity with the people you are accusing. ''
Basing all of my comments on your comments that you have posted and the way you miss quote and how you teat and put down Muslims for being Muslims
''You apparently come from a background that has no familiarity with academic rigor, scholarly standards, and professional criteria. ''
Read your own comments they are not of any higher standard (false claim of being smarter again) others on here have called you out on this also
You only read and see what you want to read and see
Constant put down of others and name calling is a Contradiction to your faith.
Realise that some Muslims do read the same texts as you also.
Never misjudge those you are in a disagreement with
''You speak English well but seem to have no familiarity with Western knowledge traditions. Instead you blindly accuse your opponents with the same sloppy techniques you Muslims use. ''
Not accusations I am basing it on the comments you have said about Muslims and Islam
You have said :
Muslims are terrorist
No such thing as a passive or none violent Muslim
Muslims and Islam are Nazis and Communist
Certain sects are shirk
Quran should be banned
Forced removal of face coving
Muslims are savages (yet acting like a savage yourself)
Many more comments that are violating Muslims rights
''We are not the same as you. Don't assume we behave and operate the same as you do in your culture which is heir of primitive tribal barbarians.''
Constant put downs of other cultures.
Like a comment you said about all Muslim countries being backward and savage this shows you have no knowledge of any country but your own ''Free'' one.
Look at all the contradictions in your country before looking to others rather then trying to justify imposing your views on others
No surprise you act like this I have come across many like you before (All Muslims and other countries other then yours are inferior)
Saying these comment shows you are nothing more then a bigoted Mormon who does not want to spend any time trying to understand anything that is different to you.
-JSOP
Read about the persecution of the Shia and the family of Muhammad (peace be upon him)
You are going on the only sect of Islam being true is the Salafi
Focusing only on the small % of Salafi that are Salafi Jihadis or Wahhabism (violent extremist off branch of Salafi)
Read about shirk and what it means
All Muslims are Muslims
Only Allah can say who is a Muslim and only Allah can judge mankind
-JSOP
Yes you can call me plain lucky. I tell my christian friend's about the website, some of the politically correct do not care. But please give me suggestions how to put this site infront of my muslim friend. That what will matter more.
People do not care. Seems like even if it happens in their backyard they forget soon. But I am determined in my cause to put the real Isalm infront of my muslim friends. Because I care for them. But my issue is the starting point.
Hmm… looks like your message got clipped. Try again.
Also, it looks like the relative positions of the URLs are shifting in Google search results. For example, the Fifth Reference is now Ninth. http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/personal-effec…
I should have posted the URLs too.
Dear John,
And I also know a person naming John Komblin Memb, memorised the whole and entire bible who resides in the earth no -2
Good grief Maruff! Don't be so boring!
From the very first reference in the first link:
"I know two who have memorized the whole Bible." http://www.toi.edu/Resources/Memorizing%20the%20B…
From the fifth reference:
Post #3 "I'm familiar with SRS systems and mnemonics. Could these be used to memorize the entire Bible, both Testaments, word-for-word? … I've heard of people doing this, but I don't know if it was really true."
and
Post #23 "It was said that you could open the bible, old or new testiment, and say the first five or six words of any verse you care to pick, and he would finish the verse, and then proceed to finish the rest of that chapter or book, whichever you prefer, from his memory alone. It was said by many that he memorized the entire KJ version of the bible and other scriptures accepted in that church."
and
Post #26 "Memorizing the Bible has many benefits and rewards. I know of some people who have memorized the entire Bible word-for-word. Right now, I am using the same method as others have and so far, I almost have 15 books of the Bible memorized word-for-word. My goal is to memorize all 66 books word-for-word."
Post #31 "There's a guy who memorized the entire bible after a NDE.
Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife http://www.near-death.com/"
From the first reference in the second link:
"Yes, 6 people have memorized the entire Bible. Keith McKittrick, Charles McNabb, James Beal, Nancy Fines, Peter Lear, and Charles Rose."
and
"I actually do know a few who have, yes. It's pretty remarkable: if you give them a reference they can tell you what it says. But it's not miraculous. It's just an impressive feat of human memory."
and
"Benjamin Franklin, they say, memorized the whole Bible.
John Chrysostom memorized the New Testament."
and
"Bill Gothard has memorized the Bible in at least 4 different translations."
and
"Ancient writers and poets (before 1900s) had memorized the entire Bible. They discussed, analysed and quoted every verse."
and
"I think Marshall Keeble actually did this."
Fourth reference: "I think Marshall Keeble actually did this."
Eighth reference: "According to Wikipedia, Jack van Impe…" … "Roshith" … "the late sister Agnes"… "a woman who was going blind memorised it so when she did lose her sight she still had the scriptures." … "Angel Martienez, Southern Baptist Evangelist" … "John Goetch the Executive vice president at West Coast Baptist College" … "Eric Sauer( Principal of Wiedenist Bible School)" … "Kim Peek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek "
Ninth reference: "a Baptist minister named David Miller that has the whole Bible memorized"
And so on. These are just the first pages of two Google searches out of millions of pages. If you want to be a researcher, you have to learn to dig, and the more you dig, the more you will find better examples of what you are looking for. After you get a larger sampling, you discard the weak references and keep the stronger ones.
And after all this, what do you have? Nothing. As stated here repeatedly, what does it prove that someone has memorized something. There is absolutely no theological importance in counting people who have memorized.
I did this exercise as an example to help you. You need to learn to do your own research. And that means accepting data found with integrity whether or not it supports the question you are researching. This is called the scientific method. In true research you don't have a preconceived notion and just search for what backs you up. That is called politicized science, and it is not valid, like the recent "Climategate" revelations that again show that the Global Warming people are cheating on their science for political purposes.
Also, the ease of memorization decreases in the order:
Songs > Poems > Proses.
If Quran is 100% what muhammad had uttered, how does that matter in the validation of truth.
If you believe satan exists, then why satan has not the power to deliver messages to human beings? Why satan cannot tell prophecies to humans?
From your posts, logic does not seem of any value to you.
Poems are easier to memorize than Proses.
You will remember poems years later not proses in its entirety.
What is so 'holy' and 'intelligent' about the phenomenon of Quran memorization?
I would have to read the full thread if I want to find out your intent.
I have never read Quran.
Poems are easier to memorize than Proses. What does that prove?
So you do think that`s a good reponse?
Remember, his purpose is to find the religion which is better than Islam. 🙂
Dear enlightened25,
Thats a good enlightened pundit (Rational Scholar)
"My point was why koran is easily memorisable and the rest are not. Why? What is the reason." Whatever the reason, it is not becuse the koran is the word of allah becuse it is impossible for allah to exist.
"He debated Sri Ravishanker, Raksmi Vai Zaveri, Dr Willium Campbell, Pastor Ruckni and also kept himself open for Mr. Pope also as well as any body who can gather at least 10,000 people." Notice how he only debates religious people, how come he has not offered to debate rationalists like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens? We all know the answer to that question it is because they do not have any religious beliefs to attack.
"You are not daring to debate with him publicly showing many excuses." Why should Ali Sina have to show his face? For one thing i am sure he does not want to live under police protection for years (like Salman Rusdie had to). Furthermore what is Naik`s excuse for not having a written debate?
"It might also be evident that actually there was no real Ali Sina instead there is a Christian Missionary Group." Ad Hominem you attack the person to invalidate the arugment which is a logical fallacy.
1)Person A makes claim x
2)Person B makes an attack on person A.
3)Therefore A's claim is false.
I hope you can see the fallacy because if you don’t you are never going find the truth.
Dear Ali Sina,
You are trying to answer a question by deviating from the question. Now a days its not difficult to understand koran as arabic + translation in readers language is provided in the same book. One can memorise and also understand at the same time. I myself also tried koran and bible to memorise but failed to memorise bible when memorised the koran. And also could not find anybody in the world who memorised the bible or else. My point was why koran is easily memorisable and the rest are not. Why? What is the reason. But you are answering a question why is memorising is not good but understanding is good.
In ancient times memorising was essential for preserving the authenticity of the text when there was no printing machines. So I think easy to memorise is a plus point for koran to be in its original text.
"In a written debate it could be continued life long like this forum." No they don`t though they may go on for many weeks or even months.
"Debate should be in public and there should be Judge." Why should? In public debate your opponent could say any lie and get away with, in written debate you can`t.
"I think the muslims have one Dr. Zakir Naik against rest the world." Out of 1.5 billion muslims their is only one man that can defend islam. Why do you need zakir naik to defend islam? Why you or any other muslim cannot do it? What can Naik say that you can`t?
Dear John K,
I found nothing in those links http://tinyurl.com/75fr6em http://tinyurl.com/7vc9uta about bible memorisers.
Dear Ali Sina,
You said, ""I challenge any Muslim to a debate and will show him that he has no understanding of the Quran.""
You ask muslims to written debate. In a written debate it could be continued life long like this forum. Generally there is no norm of written debate. Debate should be in public and there should be Judge. I think the muslims have one Dr. Zakir Naik against rest the world. He debated Sri Ravishanker, Raksmi Vai Zaveri, Dr Willium Campbell, Pastor Ruckni and also kept himself open for Mr. Pope also as well as any body who can gather at least 10,000 people.
You are not daring to debate with him publicly showing many excuses. Which we understand that you have only plausible, slippy, sneaky forum type debate activity which is only a drama of debate. It might also be evident that actually there was no real Ali Sina instead there is a Christian Missionary Group.
Very poor logic to wrap up a truth.
He did in answer to you and many other Islamists. His answers are in this articles and the debates in this site. Didn't you read them ?
Look to the right side of your comment level with the "Reply" button. You will see a blue "Delete" button. If there has been no reply, you will also have a blue "Edit" button.
Ditto!
(or should I say, "gobble") 😀
After that, get ready for "chestnuts roasting on an open fire".
(Be safe on Black Friday – or just stay home…)
Happy Thankgiving to all FF friends.
Can this comment be removed ? I really made up a sloppy explanation. I don't how to remove this. Would the moderator help me in removing this comment ?
Mr Naik didn't bring arguments. He bought up insults disguised as arguments. In the ZN vs SSRS debate he only gave statements. E.g. Kaaba's stones name in Arabic. Lets say SSRS brings the argument that the kaaba's stone is talked about in Hindu Scriptures because in sanskrit the name of the stone is given. What ZN could have said is If the said sanskrit name refers to the Kaaba stone as SSRS said, it shouldn't mention something else in someplace else. SSRS was irritated with this guy rather than defeated. ZN never allowed SSRS to answer. Anyone can answer an argument with a counter argument but not an insult.
Maybe you are thinking of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). There's some discussion and I posted a couple of videos on it in the "Does God Exist" article.
It's too bad people have such a "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" attitude.
LOL! I think the Golden Rule would consider the gullible shopkeeper too. That's why we have laws, police, and jails!
Hi John,
In someplace in this site, the people were telling about a very scientific greek work. I don't remember. Could you kindly remind me if you knew the name of the work ?
I remember it sounded like a country name but couldnt place it.
You are just plain lucky sister…Just plain lucky.
:-D. Do you send the articles from Alisina.org to other christian friends. Sending them to mohammadean friends is out of question as they can get violent. But what about christian/atheist guys.
Most the people I sent the articles to, brushed it of and said it was an invitation to conflict. I merely asked them to beware of the muslims but they are worried about the confrontation.
To elaborate further, as a shop keeper who works by the golden rule.
Thou shalt not deceive they customer with poor products. However if the customer is bent on deceiving you, create a win/win situation by not trading with him and makng the deceiving customer to look for a more gullible shop keeper.
Can you see how this become a win-win situation ? Its too big to be discussed here but the book "The Ape in the corner Office" says it better. I can't ask you to read the book. Search the Internet with the words "Win-win". The articles that talk about the situation are more than enough..
There is a problem when you ask people to renounce their 'search' for a religion and keep practicing the golden rule in life.
The golden rule has been explained beautifully by Dr Ali Sina. I will add to it by saying the golden rule is about win-win situation for the all the parties in a situation. Search the internet "win-win".
But People somehow think, living without a search for a religion is much 'lower' in status than living with one. Incase of being an apostate of Islam living among mohammadeans, the apostate only has to stop living like mohammad did and start treating his Islamic relatives and friends with the golden rule. He/She (apostate) only has to create win-win situations for them and him/her. That is all that is required. Somehow people confuse discouraging Islam with fighting Islam. Whaddya say ?
Let’s cut this general accusation and go straight to the point. There are many discussions about Islam in the comment page. Each and every one of it contains specific topic and of course far from finished. You are making accusation of half quote, misinterpretation or false context. Now, your job is to practice it so enough with the theory.
Saying “twisting fact” without pointing the fact will not make anyone listen to you, of course, other muslims will because they will listen to anyone who is in the same side.
The judge is the readers/visitors. Assuming that Sina broke his promise for the challenge you still could defeat this site through natural way. When a muslim could present a good, logical argument thus making the challenge fulfilled this site would be automatically lose its visitors, other pro Islam sites would copy the answer and give detailed information for the step by step description of Sina’s error and dishonesty. Any newbie or neutral readers would lose interest and consider this site as hoax. The image of the “answer” would haunt them whenever they thought about the challenge (assuming that you can answer). It’s not easy to deal with “ghost”, you know.
Making accusation after accusation will only make you lose respect. I know most muslims here love to make “deleted refutation” in order to feel that they have answered everything. The easiest way to do this is to provide links to or in other sites. I suggest when you want to accuse something you bring proof of what you claim. It’s easy for me to say that all refutations are erased too by the pro Islamic sites. This is an empty claim. In the end, each sides will claim “deleted refutation” and proclaim the win just like kids.
Sina’s helping muslims with his own way and of course muslims who behave like a muslim will get harsh reaction because muslim is harsh to unbelievers. But when you look at the article, not the comment, especially the letters, you can see his desire to help. If he wanted to bash and purely spreading hatred he should do it differently. Bash, insult, make fun, boast and ridicule them all the times whenever he sees letters or articles from muslims. That would be more satisfying.
You advise to read all comments but you didn’t read any comment that deal with Islam. Is this how you judge?
o.0
Board sweeping accusation? Yes, you did that because you never entered any specific topic. You made general and opined statement just like most muslims here.
Showing or reacting to hatred cannot be considered as “speaking hatred”. It’s more like a natural response to an ideology which actually contains hatred.
Another subjective statement:
“Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia”
In here, you didn’t even prove that Islam doesn’t want to implement its law to the rest of the world which Muhammad and his followers had done in history. Mere denial and accusation is not going to work.
Nothing is considered as double speak when you are dealing with hateful ideology. Human rights can only be given to people who actually respect the same human rights and consider that humanity is bigger than god. Let’s imagine you faced a criminal but you had a very strong self principle that you would not hurt anyone. The criminal in the other hand didn’t care about that and could hurt anyone as long as it was in line with his desire. Your principle would not work on the bigger picture and you had to consider the larger rights (other people) this criminal wanted to abuse.
In this case Islam doesn’t recognize the same human rights you are talking about. It only gave 2 rights, the muslim and the dhimmi. The dhimmis (Christian and Jews) are cursed because of shirk, misinterpretation and rebellion, they will go to hell. Can you say they are people of god? Anyone who commits the gravest sin against Allah deserves to be killed if they don’t repent.
Most members of religions know nothing but ignorance and speech from their religious leaders. They often have the same mind and view because the view is formed using the media or the community. The general statement is the proof whenever I see one saying “don’t spread hatred” or “religions are all good”.
o.0
Look at the Muslims he has helped on this site and how grateful they are to him for what he did for them. Some day you will thank him too.
"Just because someone isn't an extremist doesn't mean they are not a Muslim" I already explained they are following their religion the koran has a name for people like you it calls you hypocrite or like i said a "non-muslim" muslim.
"You or anyone does not have that right" I can say what the hell i like and i won`t be told what to say by some cultist like you.
"I have said all Christians Jews and Muslims are brothers and all of them killing each other is a pointless power and political struggle between the extremist of each religion" What about the atheists and polytheists are they not brothers? Or is killing them good?
Well then don`t come to the kaffir countries if you won`t uphold the first amendment keep your religion away from me. Don`t tell me i need the supernatual dictator to tell me what is good and how to live my life. Why if you believe the muslims should have rights over the non-muslims, why they should accept the muslims? Go and live in your own state don`t bring it to us we don`t want that bullcrap forced on us. No i treat people as they treat me if you want to force your religion on me, what right do you have to complain if i force my view on you?
You missed my entire point rather the quoting a entire quote you and others only quote half of it or try and say it means something which it does not mean.
State wrong or twist the facts and try and pass them off as a truth
''If you win, the money is yours to do what you want with it. These sites will also be shut down, and Dr. Sina will publicly declare that Islam is a true religion.''
I find this hard to believe as he is the judge of his own argument and a extremist who hates Muslims would not praise them over night just like a Extremist Muslim who hated Jews would not praise them over night.
Many have stated where he is wrong yet alas the hate site is still here
If anyone fully (Showed in detail how he is wrong on every subject and all his Articles) proved Ali Sina was lying the comments would be deleted or would twist what they were saying or name call like a child and go back to posting his nonsense.
Ali Sina is not trying to help any Muslim (This is proved by how he treats them in the comments)
As Ali Sina is spreading paranoia, bigotry and Hatred
Many believe this as true as his followers are extremist themselves
Read all comments and the violence directed at the Muslims and you will see this to be true
-JSOP
I do not agree with this for many reasons that I have listed.
Not really a good example of the '' best ''
-JSOP
Read about all of the Muslims harmed by extremist also
For example the Shia in Bahrain and Indonesia by the Sunni extremist (Not all are extremist as that would be stereotyping an entire sect of Muslims)
Just because someone isn't an extremist doesn't mean they are not a Muslim
You or anyone does not have that right
Never said there was no such this as an extremist every walk of life has them
I have said all Christians Jews and Muslims are brothers and all of them killing each other is a pointless power and political struggle between the extremist of each religion
-JSOP
"I do not agree with this as Godless countries" What i mean when i say Godless is that religion should be seperate from the state, in a secular country a atheist, christian, jew or muslim could be elected as president no such thing could ever happen in a islamic state. Secular means to keep your religion to your self, yes you can preach it, you can worship and all the rest of that just don`t impose it on people that don`t believe in it. What i am talking about is summed up in the US Constitution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
"Only Extremist not all of them most are just going about there lives." Well why aren`t the Non-extremist (or in reality non-muslim)muslims speaking against those who in some neighborhoods try to impose (or indeed do impose) sharia, where even the police are afraid to go? Or the rise of antisemitism amoung the muslims and the shouting of things like at allegedly anti-zionist protests "we are all hamas now" and "send the jews to the ovens?"
"This comment shows your hatred"
It shows nothing but your intolerant judgemental and presumptuous attitude.
"Saying I should be banned for speaking ''hatred ''"
Just letting you see how your medicine tastes.
"Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia''"
I gave you the link for the National Security briefing on the Sharia threat and you call it paranoia? What nerve.
"Double standards of saying you respect human and civil rights yet trying to justify taking it away from Muslims"
What civil rights?
"What you are others are saying is hatred"
Didn't I show you these already?
Why Are You Spreading Hatred? http://alisina.org/why-are-you-spreading-hatred/
Why Are You Spreading Hatred Part 2 http://alisina.org/why-are-you-spreading-hatred-p…
You really mystify me as to why you keep beating the hatred drum. You even moved me to review the site again to see where you are getting that attitude. Ali Sina has a gentle caring tone in his writings, and it's obvious that he cares deeply about Muslims.
The only explanation that I can come up with is that you are too emotionally involved with Islam and you cannot take any questioning of it without getting emotionally involved, and then you project your emotion onto us.
''That's his style. Broad sweeping accusations with no substance. A real hater. Hate speech like his should be banned. If he lives in the UK, maybe we can sue him.''
Did I strike a nerve John K
Saying I should be banned for speaking ''hatred '' yet saying the Quran should be banned and the force removal of the face coving is a good thing and speaking hatred yourself
All extremist know how to threaten you when do do not know what you are talking about
Basing all of you facts on a paranoia of ''Creeping Sharia''
Double standards of saying you respect human and civil rights yet trying to justify taking it away from Muslims
I am saying All Christians Jews and Muslims are people of God and all extremist (all Religions) should not be killing each other this is not hatred
What you are others are saying is hatred and Most Jews Christians and Muslims know this.
-JSOP
''. But how can it work when the muslim immigrants want to have their religion imposed on everyone?''
Only Extremist not all of them most are just going about there lives.
You seem to not understand this.
''On multiculturalism i think its good but can only work in a country with a godless constitution that protects freedom of religion, freedom from religion and free speech''
I do not agree with this as Godless countries can become just as corrupt as one that is lead by a Muslim, Jewish or Christian Extremist.
Also they use any excuse to justify doing corrupt or harmful behaviour (Morals are very flaky)
You should not agree with ban as this as it is not right to do
Shun all forms of corruption and wickedness
-JSOP
John K said : ''Bravo, bravo. Immigrants need to integrate into their host societies, not bring their culture with them. It is the only way for nations to preserve their identity. They have the right to defend themselves against cultural encroachment. ''
This comment shows your hatred for anyone who isn't like yourself
Muslims are not enforcing anything at all
Force removal of the face covering is just as bad as the forcing of wearing a face coving (which most wear by choice) This is taking away the Muslim women choice and violating there human and civil rights
It is good to see that most Jews and Christians do not believe this as only the radical and bigoted are the only one who believe this.
Read what is happening, Muslim woman are not creating the hatred a radical Geert Wilders is playing on those who hate Muslims
Open bias against Muslims and most Jews and Christians people know this to be true
-JSOP
On the headscarf ban i don`t agree with it, not because i agree with it but i think its practically impossible to enforce such a law. If people want to walk the streets in a halloween costume fine but they should not complain if they are insulted. As for banning the koran it should not be banned on the contrary everyone should be encouraged to read and study that book. On multiculturalism i think its good but can only work in a country with a godless constitution that protects freedom of religion, freedom from religion and free speech. If all those things are upheld then yes a multi-lingual,multi-ethic,multi-religious society can work. But how can it work when the muslim immigrants want to have their religion imposed on everyone?
The one who refuses to continue, fail to answer and commit logical fallacy is the one who loses.
Now, if you want judge then we have another problem. What kind of judge? In sport, even the judge can commit mistake and tendency.
Balanced and healthy is the correct lifestyle for human. You have money but not blinded by it and you have social responsibility at the same time. Living a simple life is too vague. Does poverty mean simplicity? Being rich, can do what you love to do and contribute to society is simple actually because that's what many human really want personally. There are many rich people who donate their wealth to others, leaving their child with almost nothing.
Your brain is paralyzed by fear. Fear is the weapon of all cults to control the mind of their followers.
It's the source that you have to analyze, not the wiki. 😉
"The world doesn't need warmongering fantastic thinking they have the right to impose there views on others".
Precisely what Islam is.
Wrong again.
an answer which doesn't answer.
I have many queries about Islam, care to answer it?
Memorizing books is not central theme of other religions because memorizing it will serve nothing. People at that time had invented writing so it will be more practical. What's the use of memory if you can't verify or do it?
Nothing mysterious in memorizing Quran. You are not convincing anyone here. Islam has its own error and mistake so it is not a matter of convincing but fact. 😡
That means memory proves nothing and of course you can't verify memorized verses. Actually, that's just one reason out of many for me to know that Islam is wrong.
Monster of this age, yes, if they followed what Muhammad had ordered. 🙂
Already done of you bother reading it. 😀
Lacking explanation, just a complain. 😀
It would be better if you just deal with the specific topic rather than general and subjective accusation. A true (divine) good message shouldn't leave opening for twist and turn, likewise, it could be applied to the muslim too. 😀
That's his style. Broad sweeping accusations with no substance. A real hater. Hate speech like his should be banned. If he lives in the UK, maybe we can sue him.
Now who is distorting? That is not what he said at all. It is becoming increasingly apparent that you are just a liar following the example of your prophet.
The trouble with you is that you make wild accusations without any familiarity with the people you are accusing.
You apparently come from a background that has no familiarity with academic rigor, scholarly standards, and professional criteria.
You speak English well but seem to have no familiarity with Western knowledge traditions. Instead you blindly accuse your opponents with the same sloppy techniques you Muslims use.
We are not the same as you. Don't assume we behave and operate the same as you do in your culture which is heir of primitive tribal barbarians.
Well said Ria.
You are quite condescending to assume that I do not know how to acquire information.
It is you who are bringing belief in a savage 6th century ideology to our modern times.
"All read about the radical Geert Wilders who wants to tax women who wear hijab"
Bravo, bravo. Immigrants need to integrate into their host societies, not bring their culture with them. It is the only way for nations to preserve their identity. They have the right to defend themselves against cultural encroachment.
"Stop the hatred"
It will stop as soon as you stop creating it.
No need to fret pout or worry! 😀
That concept is not a subset of my statement.
All read about the radical Geert Wilders who wants to tax women who wear hijab
Fascism’s new face in Europe, parliamentarian in the Netherlands Geert Wilders, proposes taxing Muslim women who wear hijab (head covering) 1000 Euros. He is a close friend of Robert Spencer who has proclaimed that “everyone should support Geert Wilders.” Wilders has also called for the banning of the Quran which he equates to Hitler’s Mein Kampf , has stated that Muslims are colonizing the Netherlands and has advocated the denial of religious freedom to Muslims.
Geert Wilders has done it again. The leader of the far-right Freedom Party managed to make the Dutch headlines during the annual general political debate.
Wilders’s newest proposal is to tax the Muslim headscarf. Any Muslim woman who wants to wear a headscarf – which he described as a ‘head-rag’ – would have to apply for a licence, and pay one thousand euros for the privilege. Wilders says the money raised would go toward women’s emancipation programmes.
The rest of the Dutch parliament reacted to the proposal with disbelief. One after another, they asked Mr Wilders if this was a serious proposal. For instance, would he include other types of head covering in the tax? And how about orthodox Christian women who wear a headscarf quite similar to the Muslim version?
n reaction, Mr Wilders said he would actually prefer to ban the headscarf altogether, but that appeared to be legally impossible. He would not tax the Christian form of the headscarf, but he did not say how policy would make that distinction.
Mr Wilders has acquired a reputation for making shocking statements during general debates. Two years ago, he called for the banning the Muslim holy book, the Quran. Last year, he warned that Muslims were colonising the Netherlands. Last spring, he and his entire fraction walked out at the beginning of a debate.
The government still has to defend its new budget as part of the general debates. But in an unusual move, Mr Wilders has already announced that he plans to submit another motion of no-confidence in the entire cabinet. That will be the Freedom Party’s eighth motion of no-confidence.
Stop the hatred
-JSOP
All read http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/geert-wilders-wa…
-JSOP
Ali Sina claiming he is greater then God is tempting fate
-JSOP
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/geert-wilders-wa…
-JSOP
''Yes, it's a perfect example because it fits your pattern of denying reality. ''
Not a reality others can make the same comment about your sect (Mormons)
A extremist who has already made up there mind and hates Muslims and Islam will not listen to the facts when they are presented to them in any form as A Neo Nazis would not accept anything good about a Jew or Negro
Your claims about the Quran should be banned in countries and just as dangerous as a gun proves your hatred for Islam and how little you understand about it (On the lines of the radcial Geert Wilders
Using Google to post half quotes and claiming to be knowledgeable does not make you knowledgeable and just shows how little you really know or understand Islam
-JSOP
Did you even understand What I was saying ? I am clearly saying watch all news not just one country nothing deficient in my intelligence about that statement.
The real question is do you even know what that means it is not about putting woman down (5th-6th century)
Quite amusing seeing those putting meaning of words from the 5th and 6th century with present day century meaning (words like terrorist,Mafia Communist and Nazis
Those who do not know what it means automatically relate to the new term you are claiming it to be thus think what your ridiculous claim is true
-JSOP
Again you claim to know what shirk is when you have no idea what it is or what the Shia and sufi sects do.
-JSOP
It is very Christain like to hate the sin and love the sinner. To hate Islam and to love muslims.
I guess all sex is irresponible then, well sinse it is just a biological duty (so to speak) which should bring no pleasure for the individuals as of course that would be a sin. And as his holiness the pope says yes aids is bad, but condoms are worse. I hope by western values you don`t mean the values of a book written by savages from the middle east 4000 years ago.
Bring your proof. You are just full of sophistry and no one is buying your smoke and mirrors game.
"not based on facts"
I already have seen your facts: 1+2=4
"When many Muslims have proven what you and other have said as wrong"
Bring your proofs. I want to see how you explain that Allah and Muhammad are wrong.
"No Muslim ever made this claim that is a very poor example"
Yes, it's a perfect example because it fits your pattern of denying reality.
"You comments and others prove other wise"
Bring your proofs. I want to see them.
"You know the answer to this question I have said why and many other Muslims have also"
English translation: Truth hurts and you don't want to hear it.
What hatred is being incited? You bring accusations without substance.
Clearly you are the one deficient in intelligence.
Are you a woman?
Do you know where that verse is?
Do you believe it?
Will you renounce all such sociopathic verses in the Quran?
Then you tell us what those verses really mean. Beware of bidah.
"perversion of the Holy text"
Perversion is changing. Like you change my words. We do not change the words of the Quran and Sunna. We quote them. Your own texts condemn your arguments.
"Also you would give that ''$50.000 (US)'' if you were proven wrong (by a independent person/persons) you would give the money not to the person but to a Muslim Charity to help house Muslims or give them fresh water in the poorer areas of the would."
If you win, the money is yours to do what you want with it. These sites will also be shut down, and Dr. Sina will publicly declare that Islam is a true religion.
"Again preaching your hatred for Islam"
Your rhetorical style consists of blind accusations with no substance, content, or proofs.
"impose there views on others"
Who said that? Did I not speak for defense of the First Amendment freedom of speech? It sounds more like you are trying to impose your view on us.
Yes it is socially irresponsible. While they indulge themselves in hedonism Muslim demographics are overwhelming us while the homosexuals could take their place in legitimate society and raise families with the values Western civilization.
Their are much more important things to be concerned about than the gays. And no homosexuality is not "socially irresponsible behavior" what consenting adults do in their beds is none of your business.
Is it irrational to fear bin laden(i mean when he was alive)? Now i don`t hate or dislike any "muslim" that believes i can have equal rights, i can critise islam and draw cartoons of muhammed or burn a koran (as long as i own it) if i want. I can belive in anything i want (or nothing),as long as it harm no one else. I can eat and drink what i like and can have sex with any fellow consenting adult. If you agree with all that then i have no problem with you.
Islamophobia is a term of Muslim intimidation to silence its critics.
It is also a politically charged word which uses the tactic of one-upsmanship posturing to establish a position of superiority over its critics. It is borrowed from the gay rights slogan of homophobia which uses the same tactic of intimidation and posturing to promote its cause mainstreaming unnatural, hedonistic and socially irresponsible behavior. I find it ironic that Muslims who claim to hate homosexuality so much resort to its efforts to mainstream its own sociopathic behavior.
The words use the posturing tactic of assuming a position of superiority by painting the critic as being in a position of possessing an irrational disorder and painting themselves as being in the superior position of being psychologically sound. Again this is ironic considering the mental disorders diagnosed by Dr. Sina from the evidence in the Quran and Sunna. Read Dr. Sina's book for the full story. If you don't want to buy it, he will send you a copy in email.
Islamophobia is also a tool of the OIC in its drive with the UN to eliminate the US Constitution's First Amendment Rights to free speech.
No these false sects have introduced bidah, this is a form of shirk the punisment of which is eternal hellfire.
"Are you not guilty of forcing your views onto me right now ?" Am i forcing you to read my comments or visit this site?
"As I have said before if Islam was so bad and evil why would so many have to half quote, lie, quote bias sources, out of context quotes twist a meaning not use all hadith ect ." Examples?
"Same others are doing on here" You are making a wrong comparison, if during world war 2 britain said all nazis are evil that`s true, but what would not be true, would be to say all germans are nazis. Likewise it may have been true that many blacks believed in driving the whites into the forest, but that does not mean all blacks believe it. Like before when i said palestian arabs hate the jews not because they are arab but becuse of what they believe. And of course not all palestian arabs believe that the jews in palestine should be killed or made second class citizens.
"You say by the actions but you and others are judging someone purely on being a Muslims" Muslims are not a ethic group they are believers in a ideology. Just like nazis are not a ethic group.
Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims The term dates back to the late 1980s or early 1990s, but came into common usage after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States.
In 1997, the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the "dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims," stating that it also refers to the practice of discriminating against Muslims by excluding them from the economic, social, and public life of the nation. It includes the perception that Islam has no values in common with other cultures, is inferior to the West and is a violent political ideology rather than a religion.
-JSOP
Again preaching your hatred for Islam
They are completely different not the same again you do not understand at all
The world doesn't need warmongering fantastic thinking they have the right to impose there views on others
You will not succeed in doing this as the only people who think this way are the likes of the extremist, Neo Nazis, islamophobia, Geert Wilders, Fjordman and Anders Behring Breivik
-JSOP
''You simply dislike the facts and refuse to accept them. Muslims constantly assert that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but insistence and stubbornness to not make it so. ''
Saying something is based on the Quran and it being based on the Quran is totally different
You don't understand what I am saying if anyone hates Muslims they use only parts of the Quran to justify that hatred they already had before even reading it and leave out parts of quotes or only post what they choose
''But it's also not what he said. Read here: http://alisina.org/about/ ''
He and others have contradicted this in the comments
JSOP
The claim you are revealing Islam is a claim nothing more and that claim is based on quotes which are half,out of context, twist of the text and bias Scholars and anyone who does not agree is a terrorist or brainwashed
Have you even looked into the articles you will see they are not based on facts
''You are trying to use the typical Muslim response of denial and reinterpretation to block criticism as explained in this video on Quran error: ''
You know this because I am not believing what you are saying right ?
When many Muslims have proven what you and other have said as wrong
Psychology 101 of trying to analysis me
-JSOP
''Any Muslim who claims that 1+2=4 is brainwashed''
No Muslim ever made this claim that is a very poor example
Muslims are stating where you are wrong and you are calling them names and putting them done that is not good at all no matter what religion you are
Again you missed my point of my post and lack the understanding of what hatred in the heart means
''How many times have I told you we don't hate Muslims? ''
You comments and others prove other wise
''Why do you feel insulted by a discussion of a problem? ''
You know the answer to this question I have said why and many other Muslims have also
-JSOP
''This shows you have no concept of professionalism and how it operates.''
Another fact less assumption
Read my post again and try to understand it
-JSOP
Not assumptions. There is plenty of analysis. Do your homework.
There is an introductory article here, but for more thorough analysis, you will have to do deeper reading. Google is your friend. http://alisina.org/islam-is-fascism/
Actually, there is also another article here about a book that on the subject:
Is Islam a Religion? http://alisina.org/is-islam-a-religion/
Allah Is Dead: Why Islam is Not a Religion http://www.amazon.com/Allah-Dead-Why-Islam-Religi…
"You said in another comment that not all are terrorist yet you say if they are not terrorist they are not Muslims you contradicted yourself again"
Not what I said. You seem to have a limited capacity for nuance and reading comprehension.
Not the same as Communism or Nazis not a fact just an assumption (relating it to something bad thus becoming bad)
Read the History of Islam (Shia Sunni Sufi ect)
About the freeing of slaves ect
The verses were only half quotes and were taken out of context again read my reply to them and read not a bias Quran
You seem to not understand what I am say, you and others are guilty of trying to enforce your bias views onto me and when I don't agree you name call and try and put me down.
Straight to the Muslims are terrorist, the problem with some in the west is that hatred for others who are different is instilled on them from birth, be it the Muslims, all of Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese or anyone who doesn't look or agree with what you have you say (Not all in the west are guilty of this of cause )
Spend time in the countries and it's country rather then believing bias text wrote by those who hate Muslims
You said in another comment that not all are terrorist yet you say if they are not terrorist they are not Muslims you contradicted yourself again
You seem to have this idea in your head that Muslims invented terrorism.
Terrorism is not limited to one religion look at the history of terrorism before you accuse another
JSOP
We read the Quran and Sunna. Dr. Sina's work is all documented and referenced to Quran and Sunna. The scholarly quality of his work is sufficient for a Master's Thesis or Doctoral Dissertation. You simply dislike the facts and refuse to accept them. Muslims constantly assert that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but insistence and stubbornness to not make it so.
Raymond Ibrahim recently put it best here in a recent dialog with the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Sheikh Gomaa:
"the time for sophistry, apologetics, euphemisms, and projections is past. We live in an age where the historic, doctrinal, and contemporary facts of Islam are increasingly exposed for the world to see, in part thanks to the Internet and satellite, which defy censorship. Operating according to this fact — that is, respecting people’s intelligence — is the first step to meaningful dialogue." http://pjmedia.com/blog/grand-mufti-distorts-word…
"This is saying all Moderate Muslims are terrorist this is a lie"
But it's also not what he said. Read here:
http://alisina.org/about/
I don't know you well enough to know if you are lying or making legitimate mistakes, so I give you the benefit of the doubt. But be more careful in your analysis before you write.
There is no twisting. The Quran and Sunna say what they say. Islam is not a philosophical system that needs exegesis through interpretation. Islam is a legal system that lends itself to classification of beliefs through jurisprudence and sharia, hence the existence of the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence. This site does not interpret Islam, it reveals Islam. In every article you will find things you didn't know about Islam. You are trying to use the typical Muslim response of denial and reinterpretation to block criticism as explained in this video on Quran error:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhHDgKnE9r0
Any Muslim who claims that 1+2=4 is brainwashed and has some kind of cognitive disorder. Usually we are more kind about it and give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they just haven't read their books and don't know, as we have said about you.
"Another insult by John"
Why do you feel insulted by a discussion of a problem?
"Contradicting your Christians believes"
Which belief am I contradicting?
"your baseless hatred on Muslims"
How many times have I told you we don't hate Muslims?
"that much hatred in there heart"
Why do you think I have hatred in my heart? How would you gauge it? Do you have a meter?
"This shows you are purely informed by one sided news"
This shows you have no concept of professionalism and how it operates.
You have no basis to evaluate my faith or morals.
You are taking all of what he claimed as fact without first checking it yourself
Look and read what he is doing rather then what he is telling you he is doing
What he is doing is far different then what is claims he is doing basic facts
Don't let yourself be lead down the garden path and be another number in his hatred for Muslims and Islam
''He says moderate Muslims become terrorists as they draw near to the Quran, as did Osama bin Laden, Qutb, and etc.''
A lie if everyome took this as fact it would cause mass panic on Muslims in robes and would lead to pursocution on Muslims who are just innocently going about there lives (just like those inciting hatred on those in full coverings)
This is saying all Moderate Muslims are terrorist this is a lie and slander to all Muslims and warranting them to be treated like potential terrorist and have there rights violated for no good reason thus going against your own human rights in countries and International Law (This is a terrorist act)
If Muslims said this to Christians or others they would never hear the end of it
-JSOP
Islam must be stopped like we stopped Nazism and Communism. Muslims and dhimmis must be freed from oppression and violence.
Our Church is the internationally recognized leader in promoting family values, though activism, media ads, and teaching.
http://lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng
"Just as if someone criticise the Mormons and tried to pass there bias views and lies as facts (Other Christian sects)"
I'm quite familiar with the anti-Mormon activists and arguments. They suffer the same problem as Muslims visiting this site – lack of a fact-based analysis.
"You have your belief's and Muslims have there's"
This comment from Islam's early, peaceful Mecca phase agrees with our belief here:
Articles of Faith
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng
The problem is that Islam is not a peaceful belief system. As long as the Quran is accepted as the word of God it will inspire people to become terrorists. Terrorists get their inspiration from the Quran and Sunna. There is no denying this. If Islam were peaceful, we would tolerate it the same way we tolerate virgin indigenous tribes who still worship trees and rocks. Quaint, but harmless. Furthermore, Islam is not really a religion. We don't care how you worship, but politically Islam has more in common with Nazism and Communism. I wasn't around in WWII, but I have Church materials speaking out against Communism.
"who already hates them and made up there mind before learning"
Straw man is inapplicable because you are assuming we hate and you are assuming we made up our minds without learning. From our perspective it is you who have made up your minds without learning. You are Muslim by accident of birth. What if you were born in a Buddhist family? or a Hindu Family? Or a Confucian family? or a Christian family? or a Jewish family? Would you be so certain your belief is true like you are certain Islam is true? You are only defending your family and community like a football fan who loves his home team.
"I see a bit of a double standard as a Mormon you were were persecuted why join in on persecuting Muslims"
Count the Mormon deaths as they were driven from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois to Utah. Missouri issued an extermination order against Mormons. You could follow the trail of blood in the snow when they were driven from Missouri. How is anything I have said or done to you equivalent to this kind of persecution? I find it has much more in common with the way Muslims treat Christians and Jews in Muslim countries, as well as the way they treat their own apostates, if you read the news at all. We are here to save Muslims, not kill them. Read Dr. Sina's book. He lists three scenarios for resolving the situation. Helping Muslims is the only one that is peaceful. We are here to resolve this problem peacefully and help free people from oppression and danger.
"Christians, Jews and Muslims should not be harming each other no matter the sect"
That's a beautiful sentiment that I endorse whole-heartedly 100%. Unfortunately your books do not support that view. I believe several people here have showed you examples of such verses. Either you believe those verses and you do believe in harming non-Muslims, and you support terrorism, or you do not believe the Quran and Sunna and you are not really a Muslim. Or you might be a Muslim reformer. If so, how many followers do you have, and where is your declaration of reform?
Another insult by John do you have no shame ?
Contradicting your Christians believes for your own personal bias again?
You automatically say a Musim who doesn't agree with your ''truth''with saying they are brain washed
Can I use your logic and say that because you do not agree with what I say you were brain washed with Muslim hatred which has been around since the crusades (basic fact)
Anyone who doesn't agree with your baseless hatred on Muslims your call them names,incite hatred, lie, twist what they said and try and justify doing anything to them.
This is extremest behaviour and I fell sorry for someone with that much hatred in there heart for no reason what so ever
Also how you are bring all of the good Christians and Jews out there in the world who are not like this to shame
-JSOP
There is no need for a Judge. Reason is the judge. People who use reason can change their minds when they see their oponent’s argument is more reasonable.
In our disucssion, you say the Quran must be miraculous because so many people have memorized it. I heard this fallacy from other Muslims and it really amazes me that these people think this way. If you use logic you will not even ask such thing. Muslims are told to memorize the Quran because it is thavab and they even beat their children to do it. So the poor child memoraizes this book without understanding it. Even his teacher does not understand it. This is acme of stupidity. People of other faiths are not as stupid to do such thing. They believe their holy book is a message from God and hence they want to understand it not memorize it.
It really is surprizing that a simple thing like this can boggle a Muslim to such an extent. The reason is that Muslims look at everything through the mirror of Islam. This mirror warps everything they see.
The reason so many Muslims have memorized the Quran is not because this book is miraculous. The reason is that they are so foolish that they think that by memorizing it they will go to heaven. If you can’t accept such a simple thing, then I am afraid you are wasting your time in this forum.
Ali Sina said : ''Zakir Naik has memorized a lot of the Quran, but that man has zero understanding of that book. Any person who understands the Quran will understand that this book is raving of a mad man. ''
You know this how, because he is not making the same claims and agreeing with you he is automatically wrong ?
What you are parching is a theory nothing more not fact or absolute (Many do not agree with you and others like you
Those who do agree with you are on the fringe of society and are backed by other extremist and those with islamophobia looking to hurt Muslims for being Muslims
All my life I read the Quran without understanding it. But when I sat down with dictionary and studied it the way I study any scientific or philosophical book I realized it is rubish. If Muslims did what I did, no one will remain a believer. ''
I find this hard to believe as you are missing alot of understanding and facts about the Quran, Hadith. (Half quoting and twisting of facts is not a scholar)
-JSOP
No very Christian to jump to a conclusion and incite hatred on another without the facts
-JSOP
''independent''
-JSOP
''Wake up and look at the news.''
You do realise that in a western world they would only show the bad of there enemy's and not the good thus stirring up the masses to fight there current enemy
Read interdependent and all of the countries news (you can find translations online )
(Basic Art of War)
This shows you are purely informed by one sided news
Some of your comments are contradicting to your own faith
Every country has a form of bad people basic human fact
-JSOP
Not everything is measured on this
Rich in buildings but not in faith or morals
-JSOP
To add to my last comment
Give to the poor but claim no merit, Give to others for the good deed not to expect a reward or any thanks
-JSOP
Don't you think your time would be better spent in trying to bring back family values in the Christian faiths rather then inciting hatred on others.
Improve your land and faith before others
)You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44] )
Helping your countryman and woman who are staving
Helping those with out water
There are so many other things to do with your time
Why lie and incite hatred on Islam?
I doubt your motive is to help Islam
-JSOP
You seem to not understand what they said about the Negroes
They said:
They were trying to take all of the jobs
Trying to take over the land
Trying to somehow take over the world and push the ''honest'' white folk out into the forest
Insulted them encouraging others to treat them in a humiliating way
Used propaganda and calling all Negroes violent and when a Negro defended themselves and a few held rallies they were beaten and praised themselves how they stopped the violent savage animals
Called white people who did not agree with what they were doing a race traitor and hung them with Negroes
They called then violent, lie about them and treated them less then animals then when some acted violently in rallies or defended themselves they said '' see I told you they were violent savages'' and used this to try and back up there lies they said
Same others are doing on here
You say by the actions but you and others are judging someone purely on being a Muslims this is noticeable by all the hateful ways you all treat Muslims and lie about all of the sects (Ali Sina saying to treat them in a humiliating and demeaning way ect) double standard.
Are you not guilty of forcing your views onto me right now ?
Or can you not be guilty because you are not Muslim.
This violent and hatred in your heart and also in others in not healthy
As I have said before if Islam was so bad and evil why would so many have to half quote, lie, quote bias sources, out of context quotes twist a meaning not use all hadith ect .
-JSOP
Now I am damn sure that nobody in the world can defeat anybody in a debate if there is no judge between them.
Just as if someone criticise the Mormons and tried to pass there bias views and lies as facts (Other Christian sects)
You have your belief's and Muslims have there's
Would you like some other Christian making claims which you know are not truth and have other Christians only agree because they are a different sect who already hates them and made up there mind before learning ?
Many Christians do not agree with Mormons but they are tolerated
I see a bit of a double standard as a Mormon you were were persecuted why join in on persecuting Muslims
Read your text you cannot justify it
Christians, Jews and Muslims should not be harming each other no matter the sect
-JSOP
You are guilty of this not me as I have pointed out to you and others you are only posting the violent quotes or half quotes of the Quran, Hadiths (only posting one sects hadith) Scholars and not showing all of the Quran in what it really says
Twisting the Good into bad to justify your hatred you have already made up your mind so no matter the evidence which is showed to you and others you would not accept or will twist it into a different meaning all together ( to trick others into believe a lie and your bias views )
Hatred blinds you from the truth
JSOP
Another Muslim explained about the 73 spit hadith
Twisting to find an excuse to harm Shia just as Shia use this to hurt the Sufi
Not all stay in hell as the other Muslims said and what the Hadith says again only quoting one quote rather then all
All are Muslims in the end
Read all of the hadiths,holy text and report the whole truth
-JSOP
(continued from above)
Alma 32
26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32.26-43?lang…
Thanks for your comment. Personal spiritual evidence is different from an advocate's intellectual thought or statement.
It is derived from a personal spiritual experiment. The relationship between faith and knowledge is also described in the third selection:
John 7:17
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/7.17?lang=eng#1…
Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=e…
(3rd passage continued below)
"But we have personal spiritual evidence even if it is not acknowledged as scientific evidence." I don`t know what "personal spiritual evidence" means its just meaningless to me. Though if personal experiences was evidence we would have to admit their is "evidence" that islam,buddism,judaism,atheism etc are true. Which of course cannot be the case as they all contridict each other.
"Then there is the empirical evidence of the good fruits and powerful, productive civilization produced by the adherents of the good teachings." No one deny`s that the good humanistic teachings of religions and philosophies produce good fruits though that has nothing to do with the truth of certain religious claims. Indeed when a society starts following religious laws the more backward they become. I wonder what would happen if israel became a theocracy based on biblical law?
Wikipedia is pretty dhimmified on Islam. Things critical of Islam have to go into separate Criticism of Islam articles. I imagine this is related to their general religion policy in which things are told from the perspective of believers. Hence they don't write that Muhammad wrote the Quran, but rather that Muhammad received the Quran from Gabriel.
There was a recent statement from a Muslim leader expressing concern for the millions who are leaving Islam. That was the first time I had heard your estimate independently confirmed.
People who utilize their time doing productive things like science rather than sociopathic things like Muslim practices will prosper. The phenomenon is the same whether you want to use secular or religious vocabulary to describe it.
There is also a sociopathic aspect to Quran memorizing as it is largely mandated by imams as a power and control issue rather than a religious issue. Hence the FFI article on the broken leg.
I was thinking more of the one that says, "Riiiiiiiaaaaa"
"I am pretty sure when they are born they are alright, but the Islamic indoctration kills the brain cells !!"
Scientific research has shown that you can take a baby born anywhere in the world and raise it anywhere else in the world and it will grow up the same as anyone born there, so yes, a baby is truly a citizen of the world until it becomes localized through the local upbringing.
"Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion. "
You misstate my point. Quran memorizing is not related to righteousness. The Quran teaches wickedness, so the cycle I described also accounts for Muslim backwardness. My statement also agrees with Dr. Sina's point that Quran memorizing diverts human resources away from science and its attendant prosperity.
For all the West's problems, clearly social upheaval is far worse in Muslim countries. Asia has peace as long as you exclude Muslim countries from the tally. Wake up and look at the news.
Prosperity has nothing to do with believing in God. In fact I would argue that when people go after religion more than science they become empoverished.
John is speaking from the point of view of a religious person. But facts are different. If you ignore scince as Muslims have done, you become a backward country.
Anyone can be misguided. But most of those who change their religion to Islam leave Islam withing a couple of years and become ardent critics and opponents of Islam. Also there are millions of intellectuals who were born in Islam and leave it after they learn more about it. More people are leaving Islam than converting to it. The problem is that you only hear the propaganda of those who convert to Islam, but they will never tell you when those very people leave it or that millions of Muslims are leaving Islam.
"Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion." Religion is a broad word what does islam have in relation to hinduism, buddism or daoism virtually nothing. So yeah the more islamic a society becomes the worse it gets, while a society that becomes more humanistic (or if the dominate religion of the society is based on humanistic principles) the better it gets. For example if israel goes more towards the universal humanistic principles of judaism the better it will get, however if they start to move towards the extreme right and become more chauvinistic and "religious" it would soon become a racist, theocratic dictatorship, no better than hamas.
JSOP wrote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints neither regards Muhammad as a prophet nor accepts the Qur'an as a book of scripture. However, it does respect Muhammad as one who taught moral truths which can enlighten nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals."
The relationship between the LDS Church and Islam is a complex subject about which a book could be written. I am working on a book concerning one aspect of that, but I cannot write a book in the comments section on a website. Additionally, I am not an authorized spokesman of the Church.
I can, however, say that while the LDS Church encourages its members to be active citizens in the community, it is non-political and does not allow any politics on Church premises.
I can also say that the LDS Church loves all people everywhere and invites all men to come unto Christ regardless of race or creed as it is written in the Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 26:33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
In its relationships with non-Mormons, the Church works together with all good men everywhere to accomplish good. In terms of its relationship with Islam, the Church is a leading partner with the Red Crescent in providing humanitarian relief in disaster zones in Muslim countries.
In terms of proselyting, LDS missionaries do not debate prospective converts about their present religion. Former Church President Gordon B. Hinckley put it as a matter of telling people that we are not here to take away the good that they have, but rather to add to what they have. Keep all the good that you have learned in your religion and come to us and let us add to it.
This is not that different from what Ali Sina is saying. If you read his articles, you will see that he was a Muslim. His family members are Muslim, and his community was Muslim. Therefore, he says, he loves Muslims and wants to save them by freeing them from Islam. Nobody would waste their time here if they did not care about Muslims. Hate is not an interesting emotion, and no one here is interested in hate. I think you don't like the message, so you assume the messengers are hateful. That is not true.
Comparing Ali Sina's teachings about Islam and the LDS statement, you will observe that in articles Ali Sina has written that all religions teach some good, otherwise no one would want to join. You will also note that in articles he has stated that many Muslims are good because of their basic humanity. He says moderate Muslims become terrorists as they draw near to the Quran, as did Osama bin Laden, Qutb, and etc.
owh wikipedia*you can change whenever you want=bible…
many priest change their religion to islam..
how about you?
Keyboard is fine :D, but my head was spinning when the memorization of something is presented as the proof of being from God. Don't understand how muslim brain works. I am pretty sure when they are born they are alright, but the Islamic indoctration kills the brain cells !!
Dear John K,
Ali Sina Said, ""All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran?"""
You said"" Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity.""
But earlier you said in a comment http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/#IDComment2… that
"""The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.""
Your comments and statements are contradiction John K, You wanted to say prosperity is not related to God/religion, peace is related to religion.
You will now try to reply that the west's social peace is better than the muslims but we know about the abortion, priest and pastors adultery / sexual abuse, abortion, Gays, Lesbians, Rapes, Nudity, Porn, Prostitution, Alcoholism, Racism, Crusades, WW1, WWII, Colonialism, Hitler,Holocaust, Mussolini, Killing French revolution, Israels occupation, Bosnia, Iraqs WMD, Afghanistan, …………
So recent survey revealed that Asia's people are in more peace than any other continent.
Right John, I agree they stress so much on atributes that they don't pay attention to attitude.
Dear john K,
Ali Sina said "" All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity.
And you said ""Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity.
And you said earlier in your comment in http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/#IDComment2…
""The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.""
This is contradicting John K.
In your reply you will try to say that West Social status is better then any muslim country. but We know the statistics of human rights regarding abortion, rape, killing, Gay, Lesbian, Hitler,Holocust, Musolini, Bosnia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq (WMD), West's colonialism, and many more. Muslims becomes defender of their right from 1967 and become terrorists???
Dear John K,
Ali Sina Said,""What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity. ""
And you said ""
Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries""
And you also said,""
"Dr Sina has understanding and Wisdom comes from God when asked for wisdom."
Christ came to save mankind from sin and death. Dr. Sina is doing the same for Muslims, which makes him an ally in the work.
"You have to detox yourself a bit from this lie in order to be able to digest what I say."
I have given this a lot of thought lately as I have considered recent posts from the King of Abuse using the 99 (depraved) Names of Allah, topijerami and JSOP.
It makes me realize that the hard part about Islam education is not acquiring the knowledge required to understand the issues, but rather dealing with these intoxicated Muslims who are so brainwashed by their communities and upbringing that they don't know what their books say and why they are wrong. Yet they are the most belligerent in asserting that they know everything and that we are ignorant. I'm not sure what is the best way to break through this and help them.
Well said Ria. [What happened? Keyboard stuck?! ] 😀
Dear Dr Ali Sina, you said, "I know if I were God I would listen to people's prayers. I would never allow suffering and injustice to go on for so long. So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him."
Come on, you don't even believe in Him and neither do you acknowledge His Sovereignty and you are talking like an immature child who expect God to answer your every whims and fancies without checking yourself if you have met all the requirements that He has set which are deem fit for Him to answer your prayers.
I think that before you start to accuse my loving Creator God, it would be wise of you to determine who started all these miseries and what is the source that caused all these sufferings, sorrows and great injustice that are happening in the world today. Only then, will you realize that God is kind, merciful and good. Come to the cross at Calvary, where Jesus is crucified. This is the place where Heaven and Earth meet and all burdens are lifted. I hope that you'll be ministered by this song.
[youtube hCxAksB6H7w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCxAksB6H7w youtube]
"These comments were said to the Negroes also." Do the blacks believe in a racist and facist idea? No we should not judge people by what they born as, but what they grow to become it`s our actions that show who we truly our. So are you staying with muhammed and his filth or not? Remember a black cannot become white but a muslim can leave islam.
Read the whole chapter then, see for yourself.
"How can I hate something that does not exist." Well i hate God and what i mean by that is i hate the idea of God, the idea that their is a celestial dictatorship which is the root of all totalitarian ideology and someone we must both love and fear the height of sadomasochism.
"Learn please" I wish you would learn by reading the koran and hadiths and not just copy and pasting from wikipedia articles.
."Shia Muslims have been listed along with "heretics,"
Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan said, The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said’: ‘Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise.’
"America, and Israel"
O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
"Both contradicting Islam" Everything bin laden said is in agrement with islam.
"Bin Laden was anti-Semitic, and delivered warnings against alleged Jewish conspiracies:" So is koran and hadith
And well ye knew those amongst you [Children of Israel] who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." Koran 2:65
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Sahih Muslim 41:6985
"Bin Laden's ideology included the idea that innocent civilians, including women and children, are legitimate targets of jihad" Bin laden was right this was an example from muhammed
The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."
“Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion!“
Some did, but the smart ones understood that the Bible is a message and a message has to be understood and not memorized. How many of those who have memorized the Quran know what is in it? You can teach a parrot to memorize sentences and repeat them. One guy hat taught his parrot words of insult. Does this mean there is some special power in those insults?”
Thousands of Muslims but not a single Muslim understands this book. If they did they would leave Islam in a heart beat. This is not a bluff. I challenge any Muslim to a debate and will show him that he has no understanding of the Quran. Zakir Naik has memorized a lot of the Quran, but that man has zero understanding of that book. Any person who understands the Quran will understand that this book is raving of a mad man. All my life I read the Quran without understanding it. But when I sat down with dictionary and studied it the way I study any scientific or philosophical book I realized it is rubish. If Muslims did what I did, no one will remain a believer.
“Cant digest your explanation, impossible for me.”
I am sorry I can’t help you there. My explanation is clear to rational people. Your brain has been on Islam for too long. You have ot detox yourself a bit from this lie in order to be able to digest what I say.
*Memorizing something can be done for any number of reason, but that is not a proof of from God.
**Many understand Quran, thatz why many are leaving Islam
***//No need to criticise a Holy Book and make wrong claims about the Quran before fully understanding what the Quran means//
***I was born with an ability called critical thinking, can't help it.
I did not say I am anything but a human. But still I am better than God. Most humans are better than God. That is because God in general and specailly Allah is the figment of the mind of a narcissist. So he is a narcissist. Most people are not. We have our flaws but we have empathy for other people and some even care about animals. I belong to the latter group. I am afraid God lacks many good qualities that we humans possess.
I also don’t hate God. God does not exist. How can I hate something that does not exist. I do hate Muhammad though. Sometimes I wish I was there when he went to the top of mount Noor and pushed him over the clifs when he wanted to commist suicide and end his despicable life. Ah! the world would have been a much better place. Millions of lives would not have gone in waste and billions of souls would have lived happier. But that is only wishful thinking, What I can do is expose him, show to the world that he was a liar and save Muslims from following that monster.
I am very grateful for what I have, I am grateful to the universe. I am generally content and happy.
Thus making only Muslims look like monsters if Muslims were this why would you all have to try so hard and have to do this and lie ?
-JSOP
Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Merciful"
One trait I see on this site is they never state what was before or after thus you see the one quote out of context.
-JSOP
"That is a perversion just like if any religious or extreme group did this they are the same" How have they perverted these verse?
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. (And this is what muhammed means by oppression, teaching other religions and philosophies other than islam).
'' Then that means you believe i should convert or die which is what the koran says should happen to the pagans then i will fight against you''
Never said that (do not tell stories) and you lack the understanding of the Quran
-JSOP
Choudary receives little support from the mainstream UK Muslim population and has been largely criticised in the media. one quote
Bin Laden's ideology included the idea that innocent civilians, including women and children, are legitimate targets of jihad. Bin Laden was anti-Semitic, and delivered warnings against alleged Jewish conspiracies: "These Jews are masters of usury and leaders in treachery. They will leave you nothing, either in this world or the next." Shia Muslims have been listed along with "heretics, America, and Israel" as the four principal "enemies of Islam" at ideology classes of bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization.
Both contradicting Islam
Learn please
-JSOP
This was a quote after the ones you quoted it was talking of those who corrupted the teaching
You quoted 3:19 and 3:85
I quoted 3:113, 3:114 and 3:199
They are after what you said you did not quote what was between 3:19 and
3:114 or after
Leaving out a lot of text.
-JSOP
Read and understand those quotes fully
-JSOP
"All Muslims (extremist only agree) no not agree with what he did this is another comment which is false" Show me one thing that choudary has claimed islam teaches when infact it does not. Everything Choudary says is backed up in the islamic texts.
"I do not care if you respect me or not, you are truly miss guided and your hatred for someone being a Muslim is very clear (also anyone religions or anyone who doesn't agree with you) in how you treat them and the way you state wrong facts about them" You can believe in any nonsense you want just don`t force it on me. You can believe in gods, jinns and afterlife but if you believe that the koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe and muhammed is the best example of human conduct for all times and places. Then that means you believe i should convert or die which is what the koran says should happen to the pagans then i will fight against you.
Killing of innocents is one as I stated they some up ''they did this thus not innocent''
That is a perversion just like if any religious or extreme group did this they are the same
Listen to what am I saying rather then sticking your fingers in your ears
-JSOP
"Not the text that is causing the problem it is the extremist view they are trying to justify (not remembering Be moderate in thy pace [31/19])" That`s exactly the problem the text is violent and extremist what has hamas said and done that is against the teachings of islam?
Read,learn, and visit those ''bad lands rather then claiming Knowledge you do not have about the subject
You seem to not see all of the corrupt lewd and hateful behaviour committed. No country is an absolute freedom
But you missed what I was saying again
You just hate Muslims that is all and trying to fine any excuse to hate them.
this comment proves this
These comments were said to the Negroes also.
If you do not have complete knowledge about anything, better keep your mouth shut. You might think that speaking about something without full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave consequences
[24/15-16]
-JSOP
These verses contridict these
Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. 3:19
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). Koran 3:85
Is this a error in the perfect book from Allah?
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Holy Quran 3:199)
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." (Holy Quran 3:113-114)"
''The muslims who honestly say what islam teaches are the likes of Bin Laden and Anjem choudary i have more respect for them than you, at least i know where i stand with them. ''
All Muslims (extremist only agree) no not agree with what he did this is another comment which is false
I do not care if you respect me or not, you are truly miss guided and your hatred for someone being a Muslim is very clear (also anyone religions or anyone who doesn't agree with you) in how you treat them and the way you state wrong facts about them
One who hates will never think clearly
What do i care about hurting your feelings for? Islam is insulting to me but but do you care?
That is surely showing your human rights claim and how you said you have ''freedom''
''So all philosophies and religions have some good and useful teachings but in islam their are so few they are virtually non existent.''
Read and learn about them from the source not from one which is corrupted
-JSOP
You seem to not understand what I am saying they are using the Quran to justify that violence
Not the text that is causing the problem it is the extremist view they are trying to justify (not remembering Be moderate in thy pace [31/19])
Plain and simple
Hope this cleared up what I was saying you need to realise that 99% of Muslim are not violent
Do not by all of scare tactics by others
Good and bad in everyone ( Everyone has a jihad between doing good or bad things)
-JSOP
"This hatred for Muslims and those who are religious is violating there rights thus you are contradicting yourself." Well its my right to defend myself, if you want to live in non-muslim countries you will be treated like a kaffir would under shariah or in other words you will no rights whatsoever and if you don’t like it you can go to the lands conquered by islam and establish a islamic state their, and any non-muslim that wants to live in it can if they want to live with no rights and if they want to leave they should be able to. In my view we should have a pact with the islamic world, if you leave our countries and don`t attack us then we will leave you alone to practice your religion in peace in your caliphate.
"You are all not the pilers of human rights and freedom just look at all the other countries you live in and what they get up to and state it is for ''freedom'' also look at home rather then abroad" What is this nonsense, in the west you can say and do what you want as long is it harms no one else. Can you do that in countries ruled by shariah? Has Noam Chomsky being executed or persecuted by the US government for his views? But we all know what Muhammad said should happen to anyone that criticises him execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land.
"When a Muslims does say what it teaches you all state they are lying you only accept comments from those in other religions hating Islam or from a ''ex Muslim '' who did not get all of there prayers answered" The muslims who honestly say what islam teaches are the likes of Bin Laden and Anjem choudary i have more respect for them than you, at least i know where i stand with them.
"Muslims is lying or ignorant either way insulting then person." What do i care about hurting your feelings for? Islam is insulting to me but but do you care?
"If you all were such honest humanitarians you would state all the bad and good of Islam not just the bad or twist a good into a bad" So all philosophies and religions have some good and useful teachings but in islam their are so few they are virtually non existent.
"Extremist groups do not represent any religion as the Majority of Muslims Christians and Jews are not Terrorist at all read the facts (1% out of 100 of Muslims 99% are not terrorist and 1% are that makes 1% representing all of the other 99% who are innocent people going about there normal lives ) This is not logic at all" I am not talking about how many muslims are terrorists, i am talking about what the islamic texts say. Hamas for example if you read their manifesto have many quotes from the koran and their ideology is islam or as they say "Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution."
Memorising the Quran was done for many reasons one example is if it was ever burned or someone tried to pervert it
Many do understand all of the Quran, memorise the Quran, Hadith and the 99 names of Allah.
No need to criticise a Holy Book and make wrong claims about the Quran before fully understanding what the Quran means
-JSOP
Premise: Anything memorized is valuable.Since Devout Muslims memorize the Quran, therefor the Quran must be valuable.
Premise: Anything not memorized is not valuable.Since Devout Christians don't memorize the Bible, therefore the Bible must not be valuable.
*99 names of Allah is not memorzied by all muslim, therefore allah is not important.
*Movie soings are memorized by so many muslims (moderate) and non muslims, therefor movies song are valuable and should be from God.
What is the big deal in memorizing something like a parrot without understanding it. And it only proves Quran is so easy and trival even a kid can memorzie it and spite it like a parrot without understanding.
Ali Sin said :So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him.
No need to make that claim remember you are just a man.
Nothing more
You are only hating God because he was not your servant and did not give you all of your desires
How about you try and be grateful in what you have already rather then asking for more and more
-JSOP
Not having souls comment was a perversion in the Christian faith in that era (returned in the Holy war era)
To explain that comment
-JSOP
Not based on the Quran and Sunnah but basing it on an interpretation of his,half quotes and a perversion of the Holy text rather then all of the Quran and Sunnah
So you are the judge of you own arguement if you were so trying to be proven wrong you would have all comments judge by an independent person/persons who was not bias for either side (panel of sorts)
A person who hates Muslim would not suddenly overnight praise them as a extremist Muslim who hates Jews would not praise them over night basic facts
Also you would give that ''$50.000 (US)'' if you were proven wrong (by a independent person/persons) you would give the money not to the person but to a Muslim Charity to help house Muslims or give them fresh water in the poorer areas of the would.
If you were ''so sincere'' you would be focusing on the extreme branches of Islam perverting it for violence only not on innocent people practising there religion in peace not hurting anyone at all.
That is warranting abuse of innocents
This site is just as bad and any other extremist group religion or other.
Smarter you are not as you are self proclaiming this trait
-JSOP
''"I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments" Well if you are a muslim then you should, because they represent islam and follow it. If you don`t support hamas then why support islam which is where hamas gets their views from? ''
Do you see your own bias it that sentence?
Extremist groups do not represent any religion as the Majority of Muslims Christians and Jews are not Terrorist at all read the facts (1% out of 100 of Muslims 99% are not terrorist and 1% are that makes 1% representing all of the other 99% who are innocent people going about there normal lives ) This is not logic at all
Most state these hate filled comments to justify hatred or violence on them due to there own personal hatred or for what other reason
You seem to not understand at all my comments
'' All muslims are bad either they are deceptive or they honestly say what islam teaches. You cannot plead ignorance the truth about islam is out their and its your duty to study the facts then make up your mind.''
When a Muslims does say what it teaches you all state they are lying you only accept comments from those in other religions hating Islam or from a ''ex Muslim '' who did not get all of there prayers answered
Muslims is lying or ignorant either way insulting then person.
If you all were such honest humanitarians you would state all the bad and good of Islam not just the bad or twist a good into a bad
''Either you are with us, the believers in freedom, human rights and the enlightenment or you are with the likes of hamas and the rest of your muslim brothers.''''
Bias ultimatum you know this how ?
You are all not the pilers of human rights and freedom just look at all the other countries you live in and what they get up to and state it is for ''freedom'' also look at home rather then abroad
Evil comes in all forms
This hatred for Muslims and those who are religious is violating there rights thus you are contradicting yourself.
-JSOP
''The primary purpose of religion is not to use God as a cosmic genie in a bottle to answer our every wish and command. ''
Yes what I was trying to say
Muslims Christians and Jews are very similer in there faith and teachings
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Holy Quran 3:199)
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (for the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." (Holy Quran 3:113-114)
Also it states in other quotes to treat all prophets of Islam as the same be it Christian Muslim or Jew
Some even regard Muhammad (peace be upon him) as this comment :
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints neither regards Muhammad as a prophet nor accepts the Qur'an as a book of scripture. However, it does respect Muhammad as one who taught moral truths which can enlighten nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.
So many trying to make the different religion hate each other rather then bring them together.
JSOP
Living a life or the greatness of a country is not based on how many shiny things, money and how much someone claims they have or sky high buildings the countries have.
There are many quotes in all faiths to back this up
Being one of faith and living a simple lifestyle is far richer.
If all faiths lived like what there religion said rather then pervert it the world would be a far better place then it is today in all countries
-JSOP
I found quite a few in these links, but the search is cluttered with a lot of sites that teach Bible memorization, so it takes some close looking to find the discussions of people who have actually done it.
http://tinyurl.com/75fr6em
http://tinyurl.com/7vc9uta
In my searching I also found several reminders that while the Greek New Testament was largely a written tradition, the Hebrew Old Testament was also an oral tradition and was memorized by many because because books had to be hand-copied in those days. I also found reminders that memorizing books, including the Bible, was more frequent in the days when books were less widely available.
I myself read one book about the early history of my church which mentioned one person who had memorized the Bible, but you need to listen to what Ali Sina said. This is totally unimportant.
People have differing interests and talents, and if someone has an aptitude for it, and this is what he likes to do, then more power to him, and I applaud him. The world is made up of all kinds of people with all kinds of hobbies. But to think that it is desirable for large numbers of people to do this, or to be obligated to do this is a waste of talent and human resources.
Ali Sina is right when he says that this is a contributing factor to the backwardness of Muslim countries because they have devoted too much time to a useless activity. Also, memorizing causes people to focus on words instead of the ideas communicated by those words. That is why Dr. Sina recommended reading and studying instead of memorizing.
Ok very fine. Give me link / address / clue ?
When I moved out of my house I expected to take care of myself. I only ask my Dad for help in case of an emergency or extraordinary circumstance.
God primarily sent us here so we can learn to manage the world. We won't learn much if he is constantly intervening and interfering with our activities.
The primary purpose of religion is not to use God as a cosmic genie in a bottle to answer our every wish and command.
The primary purpose of religion is for moral guidance and to preserve our relationship with our Heavenly Father while we are away from home.
Asking God to help us with our needs helps us to focus our attention on a solution and to be receptive to inspiration and wisdom that can help us to solve our problem and to be attentive to those around us who are trying to help as well as to be aware of possible solutions in the environment around us.
"Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion !"
Stop lying. I've already told you that numerous have done it.
Dear Ali Sina,
Not a single christian tried to memorise their bible among 2.1 billion !
Not a single Buddhist tried for their scripture.TRI-PITAKA !
Not a single Jew tried for their old testament !
Not a single Hindu tried for their Vedas !
Not a single shikh tried for their Sri Guru Granth !
Cant digest your explanation, impossible for me.
If any one could have done it then like me many muslims may have converted to christianity.
And because your work is based on Quran and Sunna. Anyone who says your work is rubbish says the Quran and Sunna are rubbish. They should beware the penalties for blasphemy – or bidah if they try to reinterpret Allah and Muhammad.
A common theme to Muslims visiting here is that they are quick to jump into the comments section rather than reading the articles. If they would read, they would know what kind of person you are very well, and they would also be better prepared to discuss issues intelligently. Instead they bring the thoughts that have been instilled by their families and communities without any idea of the things in their texts that support your position.
There was a recent interchange between Raymond Ibrahim and Egypt’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa. A personal note to Gomaa in his response said it better than I have:
"the time for sophistry, apologetics, euphemisms, and projections is past. We live in an age where the historic, doctrinal, and contemporary facts of Islam are increasingly exposed for the world to see, in part thanks to the Internet and satellite, which defy censorship. Operating according to this fact — that is, respecting people’s intelligence — is the first step to meaningful dialogue."
Grand Mufti Distorts Word ‘Infidel’ to Dupe Infidels http://pjmedia.com/blog/grand-mufti-distorts-word…
A link in that article is also the best study on taqiyya that I have seen:
How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-o…
On this site recently I see a lot of the behavior described in this article. It makes me wonder if I am giving the benefit of the doubt too much by assuming the writers are ignorant rather than deceptive liars. I am unable to estimate the proportion or percentage of the two.
"God can can not be summoned at men will (Man is not Gods keeper)"
So he lied. He said he will answer the prayer – "knock and the door will be open." I don't have use for a god who does not listen to my prayers. I know if I were God I would listen to people's prayers. I would never allow suffering and injustice to go on for so long. So I am better than God and hence I have no use for him.
"He will help those when he sees fit some in unexpected ways."
That can be the result of chance. If God's help is not consistant, he is not a reliable God. I can rely on his help as much as I can rely on the the help of a jug of milk. Watch this clip. The clip talks about Christianity. I know you Muslims feel it is not talking about you. But it really does. It is about relying on God, whether Jehowah or Allah.
http://youtu.be/jk6ILZAaAMI
“Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this”
The first part of this statement is true. No one should take my words or anybody’s as absolute truth, not even Muhammad’s. We are endowed with a brain to find the truth on our own and truth must stand the test of scrutiny.
The other part of your statement is false. No Muslim has ever proven me wrong on Islam. I am even offering $50 K reward to anyone who can show I am mistaken in my calim against Muhammad. Many have written countless rubish but no one has been able to prove me wrong.
This is not because I am smarter. It is because Islam is false. No one can prove a lie to be true.
I can answer your question but I can’t convince you. That is not in my hand. I have no power over your mind. I can only open the window and show you the light. But I cannot force you out of your cave.
There is nothing mysetrious in the Quran. Muslims have blind faith in it and memorize it. It is a waste of intelligence and of their brain. Non-Muslim children learn sciences that help them build their world whereas Muslims memorize the Quran that keep them in ignorance. All you have to do is look at the Islamic countries and non-Muslim countries, What Muslims have achieved by memorising the Quran? Thanks to it thier brains are frozen and they have lost creativity.
You are wasting your time wondering whether I am a Christians in disguise. Read my book instead and you will come to see the truth plain and simple. Then all you doubts will go away.
So why are you defending Islam? Why do we never hear any reports of the results of your researching other religions?
You don't talk like a person who was raised in a backwards country, but it is just totally bizarre to place importance on Quran memorizing. I Googled Bible memorizing and found lots of information on people who have memorized the Bible both living and in the past. I know of at least one member in the early history of my own church that has memorized the Bible. And I might add that the Bible is a considerably larger book than the Quran, so the achievement of memorizing the Bible is considerably greater than memorizing the Quran.
There is nothing special about memorizing. Anybody can do it. It just takes time and effort. There is no miracle. In various phases of my life I have also had to memorize large amounts of material. There's nothing special about it. It's just effort and determination.
Really, don't base your decision on such a trivial matter.
Dear John K,
No where I said I have already find the right religion.Rather I am trying to find a more convincing religion than islam. I want to say Mr. Ali deserves not to invite to leave islam if he is unable to explain the mystery of quaran memorising.
I think it is not reserved for muslims only If anyone try can also memorise. When I was in school I heard the recitation of My hindu school teacher who memorised more than 20 chapters.
You mystify me because you say you want to leave Islam and find the right religion, but then you defend Islam. It makes it appear that this is all a deceptive game from the beginning in which you have plotted to lay traps to spring your defense of Islam.
But we have personal spiritual evidence even if it is not acknowledged as scientific evidence.
Then there is the empirical evidence of the good fruits and powerful, productive civilization produced by the adherents of the good teachings.
How does muslims memorising the koran prove its from god? If a unbelievers memorises it (which they could do as such a thing is not a supernatural ablity) would that prove koran is false? What questions you have? The only question i here you say was if i leave islam and i am wrong i go to hell. That is emotional not rational you believe in islam through fear, not because they are any good rational arugments for it. This is silly just make up your mind and stay with muhammed or leave him.
"The point of the verse is not to have blind faith and not to believe in things which are not true, but rather to believe in things for which there is evidence." That`s the point you don`t believe in things for which their is evidence you KNOW.
"Missed my point of what rights I mean (family values and marriage woman having souls ect )" Where did the pagans ever say women don`t have souls? They worshipped female god`s ( Lat Uzza and Manat which are mentioned in the koran). If they thought women were cattle they would not worship them as gods.
"I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments" Well if you are a muslim then you should, because they represent islam and follow it. If you don`t support hamas then why support islam which is where hamas gets their views from?
"Read both sides and know that just because some Muslims are bad that does not mean all are bad" All muslims are bad either they are deceptive or they honestly say what islam teaches. You cannot plead ignorance the truth about islam is out their and its your duty to study the facts then make up your mind. Either you are with us, the believers in freedom, human rights and the enlightenment or you are with the likes of hamas and the rest of your muslim brothers.
Dear Ali Sina,
xD That means fools and fanatics are best in memorising or the quaran is a book of mystery. You cannt answer all the question and cant convince me but only wants you muslims read my book and leave islam then everything is ok. Sometime I doubt that you were not a muslim at all. You probably a christian muslim hater in disguise of an exmuslim. Who only want to watch muslims leaving islam. But how can it be possible if you couldnt explain all.
"You have a very stilted view of Islam and are missing a lot of facts" What facts are these?
"Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this" Where in any of his debates with the muslim scholars was he proved wrong on anything (about islam)?
"Travel and meet Muslims (not extremist) read all Hadith and at least put in the effort to properly understand what Islam means as you are missing my point and have no understanding of an Muslim point of view or culture (Ali Sina and others are guilty of this also)" Islam means submission to allah that`s it. Second i am not going to ask muslims what islam means and teaches i will go to the islamic texts and find out.
You may have noticed I have tangled with him quite a bit already. I doubt his sincerity too. Before I came online today I was thinking of a few stronger unbeliever-hating verses myself in regards to his comments and wondering if he would denounce the Quran. Of course, it always comes back to why is someone a Muslim if they don't believe what Allah said.
The point of the verse is not to have blind faith and not to believe in things which are not true, but rather to believe in things for which there is evidence. Spiritual evidence is different from scientific evidence. The universe may be full of things that are true, but which you have never seen because science has not discovered them yet, but they are nevertheless true even now while we exist in ignorance of them. Similarly God may be existing now without any of us being aware of Him and scientists unable to detect any trace of Him, or as you have expressed, He hasn't left us any evidence, at least not that which we are capable of detecting at our current state of science. However, Paul's point is that we have the evidence which is provided by the testifying experience of the Holy Spirit. When Christ left, he promised his disciples he would send the Holy Spirit which would testify of the truth of all things. Most cultures of the world have classical literature traditions dealing with mystical or transcendental experiences, or what we would call in the West, spiritual experiences. In your book you attribute this to a God Center in our brains. There is, however, an uncertainty principle operating here as well as to whether the person is experiencing something because the brain has God Center activity or whether the brain is having God Center activity because the person is having an experience. While I agree with your diagnosis of Muhammad's various disorders, I think it is too cynical to believe that people with healthy brains are deluded by their spiritual experiences.
Have you looked at my link to mathematician and polymath David Berlinski yet? While he is an agnostic, he says there is much more in the science to suggest the existence of a God than most will admit.
David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyxUwaq00Rc
"I did not mean the thrill and the initial euphoria. But the eternal joy and peace"
Right. The scriptures are full of verses concerning the fruits of the Spirit. As I posted elsewhere, Christ also speaks of the test of the fruits of our lives, which Muhammad fails miserably.
You have a very stilted view of Islam and are missing a lot of facts
Do not take Ali sinas texts and words as an absolute truth as many have pointed out he is wrong and proven this
Travel and meet Muslims (not extremist) read all Hadith and at least put in the effort to properly understand what Islam means as you are missing my point and have no understanding of an Muslim point of view or culture (Ali Sina and others are guilty of this also)
-JSOP
''Muhammed`s first wife had her own buisness before islam so how is this true?''
Missed my point of what rights I mean (family values and marriage woman having souls ect )
I never said I agreed with Hamas or any extremist group read my other comments
Read both sides and know that just because some Muslims are bad that does not mean all are bad
Everyone can be bad if the choose to be
-JSOP
"Do you think its right Ali Sina is saying Muslims are terrorist (post he just made)" Yes anyone who believes koran is from god and muhammed is the best example is either a terrorist or a supporter of the islamic terrorists.
"Is this not similar to what you were arguing with him about Palestine (He quickly swayed the conversation back to hating Islam when he couldn't back up his hate for Palestinians)" NO the muslims can choose to leave islam if they want, the palestians on the other hand cannot change where they was born. Though those palestians who are muslims can renounce islam just like all other muslims, as well as terror attacks on israeli Civilians and anti-Semitism.
"This not true all religionist text have violence woman had more rights at that time is one example" Muhammed`s first wife had her own buisness before islam so how is this true?
"Look up the rules of war in the reign of Saladin (War Law of the Crusades )" Read the hamas manifesto, christians and jews are allowed to live if they pay jizya and feel themselves subjued. Pagans and atheists must convert or die, as well as the christians and jews who fight against islamic rule.
"As you are an atheist this is hard to explain each religion has an answer for this question" They have a answer to this and that is love big brother (i.e god) more than anyone or anything. This disgusting concept is found in the bible, where Abraham to prove his devotion to God Prepares to Sacrifice his son fortunately for Isaac God stoped him at the last second and a lamb was Sacrificed instead. Of course later God sacrificed his own son by having him tortured and put on a cross to die a slow painfull death.
"You are miss understanding what this means it is about those who strive to go out of there way to harm innocent people,mankind and corrupt the teachings and bending it to there own purpose (For example extremist groups picking and twist quotes to justify terrorism or groups to stereotype all Muslims as violent people to serve there own purpose or gain" It means nothing of the sort, muhammed was clear fight the unbelievers until religion is only for Allah. Anyone that Opposes islam is a "Oppressor".
'' I don't pray myself. I am done with it. I did my share of sincere praying for too long and heared no response. I knocked and knocked but no one was home. I rang the phone, but no one picked up. As far as I am concerned nobody is there.''
God can can not be summoned at men will (Man is not Gods keeper)
He will help those when he sees fit some in unexpected ways.
Why so quick to loose faith because you did not gain something yourself, learn some humility and self sacrifice (praying for others rather then ones own self)
''The sooner you come to this realization the sooner you will be free. Yes it is painful but liberating at the same time. ''
Why preach there is not God when you do not know this (word not absolute )
Man never will fully understand or comprehend God no matter how knowledgeable they claim to be
Any Fanatic is bad
Be moderate in thy pace [31/19]
-JSOP
Never think that you have reached the final stage of knowledge and nobody knows more than yourself. Remember! Above everyone endowed with knowledge is another endowed with more knowledge [12/76]. Even the Prophet [p.b.u.h] was asked to keep praying, "O My sustainer! Advance me in knowledge." [20:114
Knowing something is different then someone falsely claiming to know something.
Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17/36].
Take note readers do your research yourself
''It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance''
Yet you say to treat Muslims in a humiliating way and make excuses for hurting Muslims and the Norway Massacre
The old Muslims beat there woman argument this has been around so long and has been disproved so many times yet it still is rehashed and believed by those who are misunderstanding the Quran
''It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance?''
Assumption your word is not absolute only a small percent are terrorist this is an exaggeration and this act is trying to stir up hatred for Muslims and Islam
Why go to so much trouble if Islam was ''so evil'' why would you have to lie,half quote and manipulate?
-JSOP
''Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)" And what`s this nonsense, you love your religion more than your loved one`s? ''
As you are an atheist this is hard to explain each religion has an answer for this question
Read uncorrupted version of the Quran (meaning not one which has been changed or a some up, put the effort in) Bible Torah Psalms, all Hadiths and Sufi doctrine
" Yes because disbelief is a crime (according to islam) and skeptics of islam are spreading corruption the crime of which in the koran is "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;" ''
You are miss understanding what this means it is about those who strive to go out of there way to harm innocent people,mankind and corrupt the teachings and bending it to there own purpose (For example extremist groups picking and twist quotes to justify terrorism or groups to stereotype all Muslims as violent people to serve there own purpose or gain
''Good deeds in islam is obeying Allah and his messenger, not showing kindness to your fellow humans, yet alone being truthfull.''
This not true all religionist text have violence woman had more rights at that time is one example (term queens of Islam)
Muslims obey all of the messengers from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad (peace be upon them all )
You seem to not realise Jews Christians and Muslims all worship the same god and take note at how they are alike rather then trying to drive each religion to hate each other
Many on this site only post half quotes,only quote out of context, distorted facts,
What you are talking about is a bad person in this era using there corrupted views of Islam to justify violence on innocents not Islam itself know the difference
Look up the rules of war in the reign of Saladin (War Law of the Crusades )
Do you think its right Ali Sina is saying Muslims are terrorist (post he just made)
Is this not similar to what you were arguing with him about Palestine (He quickly swayed the conversation back to hating Islam when he couldn't back up his hate for Palestinians)
-JSOP
"Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)" And what`s this nonsense, you love your religion more than your loved one`s?
"Talking of those where are corrupted and committed crimes this quote is straight forward" Yes because disbelief is a crime (according to islam) and skeptics of islam are spreading corruption the crime of which in the koran is "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;"
"Your Arrogance will show your true colours and the way you act is showing you are not in any way or form committing a good deed" Good deeds in islam is obeying Allah and his messenger, not showing kindness to your fellow humans, yet alone being truthfull.
So if you did not believe God existed you would believe pedophilia and genocide were good? Another thing hitler claimed he was sent by the almighty god to kill the jews, if God had sent him would that mean the holucaust was good? "Why one is the right and one is wrong.?" Why is loving your neighbor good? When we talk of morality we should not think in terms of "right" and "wrong" but cause and effect, if you decide to kill someone you are responsible for your actions and you have to be prepared for the consequences.
This is not a mystery for me to explain. The reason is obvious. Muslims have fanatical faith in Islam and they memorize the Quran believing it to be the word of God. They also believe that if they kill and die for Islam they will go to heaven. This only proves their fanaticism and not the truth of Islam. Bertrand Russell says “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”
The fact that Muslims are strong believers is evidence that they are among the fools and fanatics. They memorize the Quran because they are fanatical. Had they been wise, they would have read the book and analyzed it. If the Quran is a message from God, then they should read it to understand his message. Let us say you receive an important letter, written in a language that you don’t understand do you chant it or do you grab a dictionary and try to understand what it says? That is what I did and it was then that I realized this book is nothing but raving of a mad man.
Muslims should stop chanting and memorizing the Quran. This book is not a book of songs. It claims to be a book of guidance. So read it carefully and see to what it guides you. It guides you to become a terrorist, to hate mankind, to beat your wife. Is this guidance?
Dear Ali Sina,
Your analytical articles are rational and informational. Help us understanding better. Would you like to articulate one more article on the statement that "" One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy. Does the indicates the origination of the Books that the quaran is not from human being and the rest all are from human being/ corrupted by humans. Somebody tells me that other scriptures or at least equal to the text of quaran is also memorised by few peoples but failed to give me any address of such people, I have searched google for such people but not found, do you know any such people. Someone says memorisation also helps to preserve authenticity of the word beside its written form. If ignorant people at first memorises quaran and subsequently understands some meaning but he does no forget the earlier memory. what is your opinion in this regard.
''9:23, O ye who believe! take not for awlia (protectors, friends, allies) your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.''
Meaning if they love them more then faith in God (all religions are similar on this)
and were hypocritical in there actions for example contradicting there religions and not being true to it (mentioned in the Bible and Torah also )
You all need to realise some Muslims do read all of the Holy text (Quran, Torah, Bible,Psalms and all of the Hadiths from all sects of Islam)
9:28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …
Talking of those where are corrupted and committed crimes this quote is straight forward
Read what the unbelievers did for example mass orgies and human sacrifice ect
''I bet you will not. I knew it. I just wanted to test your sincerity''
Talk straight, to the point, without any ambiguity or deception [33/70]
Always speak the truth. Shun words that are deceitful and ostentatious [22/30]
Do not be contemptuous or arrogant with people [31/18]
You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good deeds yourself, then preach [2/44]
Your Arrogance will show your true colours and the way you act is showing you are not in any way or form committing a good deed
-JSOP
“Faith is believing in what is true.”
Actually, faith is believing in what cannot be proven to be true. There is no need to believe in things that can be proven. Do you believe in gorillas? The question is absurd because everybody has seen a gorilla. The question makes only sense if I replace gorilla with Big Foot. Nobody has seen the Big Foot, or at least most people have not. The very existence of this creature is questionable. So in this case you can choose to believe or not. But in the case of gorilla the question is absurd. You KNOW that gorillas exist and you may BELIEVE that the Big Foot exist.
We believe in things for which there is no proof. If I ask you the time. You look at your watch and say it is 3 PM. But if you don’t have a watch you may guess and say I believe it is 3 PM. In the second case you BELIEVE because you are not sure.
“A moderate Muslim would sit and eat with any guest of their home not matter there religion. Is there some that will not do that yes but there are others who would not sit with a Muslim also
That is a persons choice not religion “
So are you ready to denounce these two verses? There is more, but let us start somewhere.
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for awlia (protectors, friends, allies) your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
9:28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …
I bet you will not. I knew it. I just wanted to test your sincerity.
Dear Ali Sina,
You are helping us to think rationally and your vision it is. Could you help us with a new article on the topic that """"One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy."" Is this because that the Quaran is Gods word and the others are human made or corrupted by humans.
//Ali Sina reports a negative (as in "nil", not "bad") experience with prayer, and similarly that experience must be respected since he complies with the social contract of mutual respect and humanistic behavior.//
Not a problem respecting any kind of view as long as it is complies with mutual respect and humanistic behavior. I have utmost respect and love as my fellow brother for Mr Ali, because what he is doing is great. I hope and pray for his safety because Islam is evil and real.
Bible says " Fear of the Lord is wisdom, and departing from evil is undersatnding" Dr Sina has understanding and Wisdom comes from God when asked for wisom.
Hi John
//Some people obviously make mistakes, like Tony Blair's sister going to Iran and feeling a thrill and thinking that means Islam is true, but in the main, we cannot judge other people's personal experiences. It //
By personal experience I did not mean the thrill and the initial euphoria. But the eternal joy and peace that only come when you get saved, it a different experience. That joy which none other but a save person experience, because the burden of sin is lifted and the fear of death is gone, and for assurance of salvation.
//Yes they can think rationally, however when it comes to God they can`t, just like a atheist may believe in many delusions despite the fact they think rationally about God.//
If God does not exist then who cares what Mohamed, Hitler or Stalin did, as they all created their own standard and in their mind they were right. So they are as rational as they can get without God, Existence of evil is only understood by the standard what God have set. Moral relativism is what you get without God…for that fact I can say, in some culture people love their neighbor, in some culture people love to eat their neighbor. Why one is the right and one is wrong.?
Theresa sounds like Agracean, this video perfectly explains her behaviour. But sorry Agracean, Atheism is true God isn`t.
Excellent video about this topic:
"The Real God: An Epiphany "
[youtube -j8ZMMuu7MU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU youtube]
"Can you say people who have faith in God does not think rationally ?" Yes they can think rationally, however when it comes to God they can`t, just like a atheist may believe in many delusions despite the fact they think rationally about God.
I wouldn't doubt that millions are working on it. I doubt that millions are at a high state of completion.
Google is your friend. Bible memorization is not a part of Western culture like Quran is for Muslims, but a lot of people have done it.
It's a trivial reason to change religions, and certainly not the best use of your time. Use your time studying and learning. You will progress in knowledge faster.
Let us suppose for a moment, something like God, heaven and hell existed:
1.) Why would a God punish a human NOT for what he did but ONLY for what he or she used to "believe" or "not believe" during lifetime? "Prophet" Muhammad killed people, raped a child, raided caravans, kept female slaves for sex? Doesn't matter, after all he was a good muslim, so he'll go to paradise. Gandhi tried to live a life without violence, in asceticism – however, he was not a muslim? Too bad for him, he'll go to hell anyway.
Even if there was a God this kind of logic would not be acceptable. And moreover: Forcing a certain "faith" upon people's by the threat with eternal hell-fire is always has the smell of brainwashing, a totalitarian "mind-control". A "right to think" means "a right to doubt"!
2.) From what age on will you enter heaven or hell? What if a baby dies? Will it go to heaven or hell? What if a 3,4,5,10,12-years old child dies? (Is islamic heaven with the houris a suitable place for minors?) What if a person who is mentally retarded dies? Will he (or she) go to paradise (or hell) as a mentally retarded? What if someone is psychotic, before he or she dies? Will he or she go to heaven or hell as a psychotic? What if someone suffers from Alzheimer' disease, before he dies? Will he or she go to heaven or hell in the state of Alzheimer'?
3.) For ten thousands of years most people all over the world were pagans – before Christ appeared around the year 0 and before Muhammad appeared around the year 570 AD. Why did God, if he really is the "one and only true God", allow countless generations peoples of all kinds of different cultures in Europe, in North- and South-America, in Asia, in Australia even in the Arctic region etc. to practise paganism – and all of a sudden he decided to "reveal himself" to certain allegedly "elected" people with the words: "Hey, buddies, you better worship me alone, otherwise you will end up in hellfire"? Then what happened to those countless generations of pagans after their death BEFORE Jesus and later Muhammad appeared? What will happen resp. happened to e.g. Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Alexander the Great, Julius Cesar after their death? (And what will e.g. happen to Gandhi and the Dalai Lama after their death, who are resp. were both neither Muslim nor Christian?)
Still it is amazing me, Millions!!!!!!!
Not repeated in case of any other book of the world.
Dear Enlightened25,
Still it is amazing me …. millions memorised quaran not few or 100 or 1000.
Give me address of one person who memorised bible, surely it will convince me to be a christian after meeting him.
Every religion / non religion has bad people not just Islam
Every man,women and child has the struggle (jihad) between doing good or evil things it is not fair to say it is a entire religion at the fault of evil that is not thinking clearly and is being blinded by your own bias
Never judge a entire religion on a few
Like on this site rather then addressing them by there name they say Muslim and say as a Muslim there opinion does not matter, are evil, brought hared onto themselves, and blame innocents for the crimes of the guilty (Saying all Muslims are like AQ) and make comments which are double standards
When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a favorable view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter. Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and truthful evidence [24/12-13]
Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion, color, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on [17/70]
A moderate Muslim would sit and eat with any guest of their home not matter there religion. Is there some that will not do that yes but there are others who would not sit with a Muslim also
That is a persons choice not religion
Only Allah (God) has the right to judge who will go to heaven or hell and he alone only has the right to pass judgement on Mankind.
-JSOP
Last poll was 40% of practicing scientists still believe.
Right. We often get caught up in the practicality of life and forget the beauty of life.
Maruf said: "Yes you all are right. Almighty has given us intellect. We must use it. We should be theist by our choice not blindly to the inherited religion. A questioning mind or skepticism, guidance will lead to the truth. Strong belief do demands logic, rationality, authenticity, proof and guidance of almighty. A true religion will have these. A true God will not send us message to blindly follow Him."
I agree. This is very similar to what I wrote for Ria above, if you would please read that comment too. In short, I told her that spiritual experience must be backed up with intellectual study and confirmation to make sure that what the spiritual experience is telling us is valid.
You will notice that Muhammad did send us a message to blindly follow him and he offered no proof. He only said that he is God's messenger. How do we know? Because the Quran says so. How do we know the Quran is true? Because Muhammad said so. This is circular logic.
Hi Ria,
As you do more reading in the comments sections, you will see that I have also used Hebrews 1:1 to establish that true Christians do no exercise blind faith, but rather that real faith is based on evidence. Your list of 5 points is interesting, but I would add that the most important point of evidence is that Christ promised us that he would send the Holy Spirit to testify of the truth of all things. This evidence is scientific to the extent that the "experiment" is repeatable, hence the growth of the church, but it is not sufficient to be accepted by science because it is not externally observable. So I always say that a person's inner experience with God is a personal responsibility.
Some people obviously make mistakes, like Tony Blair's sister going to Iran and feeling a thrill and thinking that means Islam is true, but in the main, we cannot judge other people's personal experiences. It does, though, illustrate the importance of studying to verify that our spiritual experiences support intelligent and valid beliefs, and not just blind, uneducated beliefs like Muslims do without even knowing what their books say. In the US we call this, "Know Your Religion".
In not judging other people's spiritual experiences, we should respect them for their decisions. Unfortunately Islam violates this social contract by not giving respect and for criminal and sociopathic behavior, and so we have the principle, "respect cannot be given, it must be earned".
Ali Sina reports a negative (as in "nil", not "bad") experience with prayer, and similarly that experience must be respected since he complies with the social contract of mutual respect and humanistic behavior.
If I say 1+1=2 is it my idea or a universal truth?
You argued the bank analogy. Do the math of sin, justice and mercy.
Maruf has serious doubts in Islam, he can do a critical thinking and may be come out of it. But that does not mean God does not exist.
"But I use rational thinking and it works better for me.". Can you say people who have faith in God does not think rationally ?
Dr Ali Sina
Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is believing in what is true. Faith has two elements: 1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things, and 2) believing, hoping in, embracing the truth. Faith is not blind.
It also takes lot of faith to say there is no God. And I don't have that much faith to say that. Did you infinitely search to find the truth ? And no one can, to say some thing definite. We don't see air with our naked eye, but we can feel it. So we have faith in air. I did not see God, but I can see the evidence of his existence by following :
GAPUTs !
1.G: God said so
2.A: Archeological and Historical
3.P: Prophecy
4.U: Universal Truths
5.T: Testimony, my personal other peoples experience.
I did not say get on your knees praying. I don’t pray myself. I am done with it. I did my share of sincere praying for too long and heared no response. I knocked and knocked but no one was home. I rang the phone, but no one picked up. As far as I am concerned nobody is there. It is just you alone to find your way and help yourself, The sooner you come to this realization the sooner you will be free. Yes it is painful but liberating at the same time.
I am not against praying, But I use rational thinking and it works better for me. And you are absolutely right: A true God will not send messages to blindly follow.
Maruff
I am happy for you on your journey. When you ask, it shall be given, when you knock it shall be open. It is a promise. Because God will never deny wisdom to those who seek wisdom, And Jesus himself said to Pontius Pilate, when Pilate asked him, what is the truth? Jesus replied "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" Don't commit the same mistake Pilate did, because Pilate asked the right question to the right person (Who are you Jesus to Jesus himself), but he did not wait for the answer.
Ask the right question to the right person, and wait for the reply. It will come. Come to him as you are with all the pre-assumptions, pre-supposition, week, sinful. Pray to God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael to revel the truth about Jesus. Ask him if Jesus is just a prophet or God himself in flesh. You don't have to share this thoughts with anyone. Keep it between you and your maker. Since you did your part, it will be His turn to show it to you. When he does show you the right path and accept what He wants, but not what you THINK is the truth. AND THAT TRUTH WILL GIVE YOU TRUE FREEDOM!
Still looking god through a group of organized people (religion), Maruf? That’s not how you play a wager. You are seeking a perfected religion in your own mind. You lumped together any merit you could find and tried to put it into one, single organized religion. The problem is that there is no glass large enough to contain it.
Strong belief doesn't demand anything but belief. It's just a strong belief. You are making assumption again before researching. True god won't do that? How do you know, from your research?
Why does a artist paint ? Ans: For the love of painting
Simply pardoning is insufficient, is it your idea or else
Dear Ali Sina, Ria, John K, Agracean,………
You said, """Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus."""
Yes you all are right. Almighty has given us intellect. We must use it. We should be theist by our choice not blindly to the inherited religion. A questioning mind or skepticism, guidance will lead to the truth. Strong belief do demands logic, rationality, authenticity, proof and guidance of almighty. A true religion will have these. A true God will not send us message to blindly follow Him. Thats why I often bother you.
That requires the bank to write off a loss. The Justice of a perfect God is perfect and cannot accept any imperfection in accounting.
It's my pleasure to help when people are really interested. If I sense disinterest or hostility, I only provide short answers.
This is the only copy of Suyuti I can find in Arabic:
http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?pr…
Perhaps if you copy the Arabic title and search Google on that, you can find a free online version.
"deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated"
These kinds of words in addressing scholarly work are not useful. I do not discount the possibility of mistranslation due to error, misunderstanding, or even sometimes dishonesty as suggested here, but in the main, translations can be checked against other translations, or the ultimate authority of the original Arabic as you suggested. Certainly the case does not rest on the meaning of one passage. The response of Haddad sounds like typical taqiyya and white-wash apologetics. He also completely skips over the key phrase, "Much of the Quran has been lost", which renders his interpretation totally inappropriate for the context.
Ahmed's proof of the preservation of the Quran is also weak, and in fact, offers no evidence at all. In contrast archaeologists have discovered variant Quran copies putting to lie the argument that there is only one Quran.
"memorized by millions"
You should also observe that it is mostly memorized by people who do not understand Arabic, which contributes to the illiteracy of the umma. Their time would be better spent studying the content of the Quran and Sunna. In the US we call that "Know Your Religion".
"One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy." This is not true some christians and jews have memorized the whole bible (which is a lot bigger than the koran). You can memorize any text songs, poems and even whole books if you practice hard and long enough. And yes even in a foreign language.
Dear John K,
You quote, ""Such is the situation in our lives. A pardon is insufficient. Christ redeemed us from our sins through the Atonement.""
Pardoning/ waving debtor/looan is a normal phenomena in our Banking activities of the Banks. A third party/ intermediary dont require to pay the Bank.
Maruf, I don’t even consider an afterlife to be real no matter in what form, be it positive, negative or even weird. It’s just our own desire that created it. I suggest you try to think about my questions. It will be clearer before you play the "if" game, a never end game.
It's a clear fact that even we pretend that god is real he doesn't even want to be known in literal sense. So, it is "his wish" for you to be like this.
Dear John K,
Gratitude for your laborious and informational compilation of explanations.
Firs I have failed to collect the arabic original statement of Ibn Umar on authentication of Quaran. would you like to provide it?
I have found a reply by shayk g.f. haddad at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php… on the statement of Ibn Umar and he said::
""The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.
The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were — I am quoting from memory — respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated).
The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:
"Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [= its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."
Ibn `Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."
Also Ibn `Abbas's and `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf's saying: "The Qur'an has an outward meaning, [literally 'a back'] (zahr) and an inward meaning [literally 'an inside'] (batn).""
we can justify him if we could found the arabic original statement of Ibn Umar narrated by As-Suyuti.
Regarding the contribution of Hazrat Uthman(MABPWH) I read the article on http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/qura…
One thing amazed me that the Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.
It's good to worship and follow only my beloved Lord Jesus Christ's words and teachings found in the Bible and you will not be led astray by any strange doctrines in this troublesome world. Any other 'prophets' who came to proclaim messages or teachings that were contradictory to what Jesus Christ has taught are known as false prophets and their religion is known as cult.
The truth is that Jesus Christ never teach any of His followers that they should install a Pope on planet earth nor bow down and worship him like God. Besides that, Jesus Christ never teach us to baptise in proxy of the dead like what the founder of Mormonism taught all his followers to do so. So, it's vital for you to know the truth and the truth will set you free from every deceptions and lies.
Christianity falls into 3 main branches, somewhat the way Islam falls into Sunni, Shia, and Sufi.
Jesus gave Peter the priesthood authority to establish the church. Catholics claim that the authority was passed on to them by Peter ordaining the first Pope.
Protestants came along starting with Martin Luther by saying that there is no way the Catholic church is the true church because of all the abuses of the church and failure to conform to the teachings of the Bible. Protestants use their own logic to interpret the Bible and have no claim of priesthood authority. Hence there are so many Protestant denominations.
The Mormon Church, which is a shorter nickname for the rather long full name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is also known as the LDS Church. It is a restored church, meaning that everything Jesus did to establish his church when He lived has been restored again today in these latter-days.
So all three branches of Christianity are called Christian. In that sense, Mormons share the same beliefs in common with Christianity. Whereas the other two branches believe, like Islam, that the heavens are sealed and there can be no more communication with God, Mormons believe in modern prophets and continuing revelation.
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
"Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus."
Look what happened when these Muslim ex-terrorists did that:
Afshins's Story – Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3VqbhVDtM
Kamal's story – dramatized version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccio1vE41M
Amen. Ria is right! You've got to humble yourself before God and pray. Jesus taught us how to pray like this: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
For the same reasons that you work hard to provide your children with food on the table and a roof over their head and send them off to college – to take care of His children and help them to develop their fullest potential.
Hi Maruff, Mormonism is a a cult, just like Islam. The mastermind behind these two religion of lies is the same father of lies, namely satan. So, please don't fall prey into the same trap again, after you've get out of Islam.
No it is not more logical.
First you have to pull yourself out of that cesspool and then find another place to rest.
Furthermore, why would you need another religion? Millions of peple rely on their own intelligence and become free thinkers. You can pick the good in every philosophy or religion and be free. There is no point in being the follower of any faith.
And who said you cannot believe in God even when you don’t believe in any religion? The belief in God is personal. You can have your faith in God and worship him the way you think it is right without being part of any religion. A great majority of people do just that.
Start praying, get on your knees. If God is real he will let you know the truth about Jesus.
Dear John k,
I have not known that you are telling about Mormons. What are the basic beliefs of Mormons.
Dear Sina,
You said, Why don't you read my book once and get over it?
I am searching another faith to get into before get out of it. Is it not more logical? Because atheism is not better than theism.
Why at all did God( if there is any) create the universe?
Isn't it funny you said this 3 months ago, and he is still doing the same thing now?
Mr Maruff, the following verses proved that JESUS IS GOD.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
I have told you twice that Jesus asked us to worship the Father.
In these verses Jesus says that he is the Jehovah of the Old Testament (Jehovah = YHWH = I AM). The next verse in John says the Jews tried to kill him for saying that.
You should listen to Dr. Sina and read his book. You won't understand Islam and Muhammad until you read his book. The guarantee is that you will not remain a Muslim after reading it. How can a book be so powerful that it has a 100% success rate? If it were weaker, Dr. Sina would say 90% of the people who read my book leave Islam, or 50% or 30%. But the facts are so undeniable that 100% who actually read it leave Islam. Is that what you are afraid of? It would appear so because you have not brought yourself to read it.
These are some very good thoughts Ria. David Wood says that the Muslim corruption of the life of Jesus amounts to Islam saying that Allah is a Deceptive God and Jesus was an Incompetent Messiah. You can review the evidence here:
Original Text:
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/05/who-corru…
Video update:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ALL_43xgco
You are certainly right about the Quran turning morality upside down. Jesus told us how to detect false prophets. Muhammad fails this test miserably:
Matthew 7
15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
The Quran is a manifestation of Muhammad's desire to have a god back him up in the immoral and criminal things he said. The Quran is a record of Muhammad's Narcissistic Personality Disorder, among other disorders he had. Dr. Sina explains the diagnosis in his book. If you have you read it yet, you need to for a full understanding of Muhammad and how he influences Muslim thought and behavior.
"I almost wish to give up on explaining to you and say to you brother don't bother just keep believing this one person whose character is really shady"
I can understand your frustration. Some of his writings give me the feeling of insincerity too as if his questions are just tricks to defend Islam, but I give him the benefit of the doubt in case he is sincere.
"I am not a scholar but a regular person who has faith in a God"
You can be happy and live a life in communion with God without scholarship, but I think it is healthier when the logical mind and spiritual life are in harmony. When you are aware of the current state of scholarship it also makes you a better advocate.
"a God who is mighty enough to preserve any book that he gave us. No human can corrupt anything which God has done."
This is a noble sentiment, but it is not supported by the Bible. The key word is can versus will. I'm sure he could, but he is not in the business of going around preventing evil wherever it occurs. He says, "Thou shalt not kill", but he does not prevent killing. He says not to take away from the words in the Bible, but he has not prevented it. This is one of the reasons the Book of Mormon was given. Here is an article listing the books that the Bible says has been lost:
Lost books. The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).
The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.
Matthew’s reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present O.T. seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isaiah 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.
The Book of Mormon makes reference to writings of O.T. times and connection that are not found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other known source. These writings are of Zenock, Zenos, and Neum (1 Ne. 19:10; Alma 33:3–17). An extensive prophecy by Joseph in Egypt (which is not in the Bible) is also apparent from 2 Ne. 3:4–22, and a prophecy of Jacob (not found in the Bible) is given in Alma 46:24–26. These writings were evidently contained on the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 5:10–13).
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/lost-books.p1?lang=e…
Hi Maruff. You have beed debating in this site for months, Why don’t you read my book once and get over it? It will be one way or the other. You will either know I am lying or you will come to see that Muhammad was the liar.
Dear John K,
You quoted,
God identified himself to Moses thusly:
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
Jesus was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be I AM:
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I cant understand how these verses means that Jesus(Pbuh) is claiming that he is God or to worship him.
Actually Revelation 22 : 18-19
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Here is what Bible says about corrupting God's words.
Revelation 22: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
John are we taking about the same God, who created heaven and earth and all things in the universe and outside, who parted the Red Sea, whose face Moses could not look at, Who send fire from heaven, who destroyed the earth with the flood because of the evil in it and saved Noah. But the same God could not save his first two messages from getting corrupt. Those smart ass Jews and Christian, tricked God, so God have to send a third revelation Quran, to faithfuls in Arabia. Who really were the only people wanting to keep god's message as-is. I am wondering if Jews and Christian tricked God to corrupt his first two revelations, what kept Jews and Christian from corrupting the third message. Or is it possible Jews and Christian could not trick muslim coz muslim's are smarter than god himself.
Also the third revelation is better because it sets everything in reverse, upside down, even lowers moral standard but can't eat pigs, but be a pig and marry some one else wife the same night you kill em. Oh but the corrupt Book says, do not covet your neighbors wife or his belongings. em!! Why is the man's message in the corrupt book looking better in standards ? Any thoughts John !! ???
However if you are hung up on a word "begotton", which in original text Greek, is μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios, transliterated. The word that is being translated as only begotten by the KJV is monogenes. The King James Version translators liked to translate word-for-word when it was possible. So when they came to monogenes they translated mono as only and genes as begotten. [Source: http://answering-islam.org/Who/jesus_monogenes.ht…. Now the king James version was done in 1611. So with a better English translation, you have more accurate translation from orginal greek and Hebrew. BTW no one claims KJV is only the translation from God and all other translation are from under…it was one of the most popular translation for last 300 years, but that does not mean every word was accurate, but tried the best of the best. However I can assure you KJV say the same message as NIV or ORIGINAL GREEK version. Message of God did not change, that YOU ARE A SINNER.
Do you know how Bible ends , Revalation 22 Vs 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. " If your Mohamed added things to the Bible and took away the truth from the Bible by twisting the facts leading million to hell. The his fate is described above.
I almost wish to give up on explaining to you and say to you brother don't bother just keep believing this one person whose character is really shady, but who say quran is completely preserved because quran say so! I am not a scholar but a regular person who has faith in a God, a God who is mighty enough to preserve any book that he gave us. No human can corrupt anything which God has done. If he can part Red sea, for the people of Israel to cross it, he can strike down a hand that raises to corrupt his message.
It's not about Trinity being hard to understand.
It's about being hard to accept being wrong about something Muhammad believed.
This is the law of justice. God is a God of Mercy, but he is also a God of Justice.
Imagine a man who foolishly assumes an unwise debt, thinking someday he will have the means to repay. The years pass, but he never accumulates the resources to satisfy the debt. One day the creditor comes and wants his money. Being unable to pay, the debtor asks for Mercy. The creditor says he is one-sided. If the debtor gets Mercy, he will not have his Justice. The debtor asks if he does not believe in Mercy. The creditor asks if he does not believe in Justice. But the law favors justice, and as the young man is about to be carried away to debtor's prison, an intermediary comes who knows the young man. He knows he is foolish but has a good heart, so he offers to pay the debt to free the debtor. The creditor is satisfied that he has received Justice, and the debtor is grateful that he has received Mercy.
Such is the situation in our lives. A pardon is insufficient. Christ redeemed us from our sins through the Atonement. But what is the use of forgiveness if there is no Eternal Life? Christ also assured our Eternal Life through his death and Resurrection. You should also observe that Jesus freely gave his life. God did not kill his Son as you inaccurately observed.
I already told you that Jesus instructed us to worship the Father. Abdullah Ishan wrote a recent comment listing several verses about Jesus claiming to be God, but I will suffice with this:
God identified himself to Moses thusly:
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
Jesus was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be I AM:
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I have also told you that the concept of the Trinity is a Hellenization and does not appear in the Bible.
Believe me, you only show your ignorance about Christianity and Western culture if you think that the concept of three Gods has anything to do with declining church attendance. This concept is a big thing to you Muslims because it goes against what Muhammad taught, but in the West, Muhammad is an insignificant nobody. If you took a survey and asked people what they know about Muhammad, it will come up nearly nil.
The West is going through the same prosperity cycle you see in the Old Testament. When Israel was doing poorly, they drew near to God and God blessed them for their righteousness. When they were prosperous, they forgot God and thought they could manage fine on their own without him, much like today's world. Then when things get bad again, people turn back to God.
That is the cycle that is happening in the West. But if you compare Western unrighteousness with Muslim evil, Islam is by far more evil and produces more evil actions than the West ever dreamed of.
Jesus tells how to tell if a prophet is true or not. Muhammad fails this test miserably:
Matthew 7
15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
Video on the Justice and Mercy story:
http://lds.org/media-library/video/book-of-mormon…
That is completely illogical. Why is God able to protect his word in the Quran but unable to protect his word in the Bible? Is this a limitation on Allah's power? Does he now have all power? This is simply another example of Islam's fraud.
I am telling you what you need to know, not what you want to know. What it is showing is that the Quran is not in a superior position to the Bible in terms of original manuscripts. I am obviously more of a Quran expert than you, or the Imams who have taught you, since I know of these things and you do not. What will experts do? Turn to the sources I gave you. So what is the superiority of their position other than that they claim a right to rule over you?
If you want the third one, I will offer this shameless plug:
The Book of Mormon was translated from the original manuscript. This is the English version. If you are more comfortable in another language, you can switch in the Language menu at the upper right of the screen.
Read it here:
http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
Read about it here:
http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/
You Muslims really amaze me the way that you can read something and come up with totally the wrong conclusion. I did not say the Bible is not God's word. I did not say it is made by human inspiration.
The word 'inspire" means the "Spirit" of God coming "in" to a person's mind.
Please do not make assumptions, jump to conclusions, or conclude I have agreed to more than what I have said.
I said there are no original manuscripts surviving. We believe men wrote what God inspired them to write. They may have errors in their ability to express what they were shown, or in what they understood about what they were shown, but the source is still divine. There is also the matter of errors in clerical transmission and reproduction by hand.
1 John 5:7 KJV says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Dude, why it is so complicated for muslims to understand the concept of Trinity?
even there are many prophecies that have come true,which are mentioned in the Bible. http://www.islamreview.com/faq.htm http://www.theevidence.org.uk/
I am asking you about your bible not about the quaran. About quaran I will ask a quarinic expert. proving quaran is corrupt is not enhancing the authenticity of the bible. It means quaran is bad so bad bible is permitted. if the two is bad then we will find the third one.
I will see the references you have given. But up to now you have agreed that the bible is not Gods word. It is human made by inspiration.
Dear John K,
Very very amusing reply.
God creates human beings and kills the son for atonement of the human beings. He could simply pardoned them. How absurd this is. The christian God is loving to his creations but unjust to his son.
Give me the references where in the complete bible Jesus(Pbuh) himself says he is God or worship him.
Give me the references where in the complete bible the word trinity is mentioned.
Godhead means a council of three separate Gods but equal to one God how funny. Thats why the church attendance is declining.
In the quaran it is assured that the quaran will be protected. The bible was Gods word but corrupted before the revelation of quaran and it is mentioned in the quaran that the christians says that the God has begotten a son which is completely a corruption.
"So is it not possible that trinity is a theory that is added later"
Three separate persons is supported in the New Testament. Trinity as three in one is not supported. It is a Hellenism added by the early Christian intellectuals to make Christianity more appealing to Greek philosophy.
"Jesus himself never claimed he is God or to worship him."
That's not correct. Jesus was accused of blasphemy by the Jews for saying he is Jehovah of the Old Testament. That is why he was crucified. Jesus does ask us to worship the Father in his name. The Father says he receives no prayer that is not given in the name of Jesus Christ. Christ speaks for the Father by Divine investiture of authority."
"It is best suits that he is a messenger of God."
No. That best suits the Muslim view of Jesus. Jesus came to atone for our sins. No prophet can do that, and Muhammad cannot do that. That is why martyrdom is popular. It is the only sure way in Islam to assure your salvation. In Christianity God dies for man. In Islam, man dies for God.
"And also I dont understand what is Godhead."
Just think of it as a council of three Gods with the Father in highest authority and Jesus and The Holy Spirit as two assistants also holding the rank of a God. This is shirk in Islam, but the Quran assigns plenty of companions to Allah as well:
Does Allah Commit Shirk? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7QwOAf4Ww
So, to get back to your questions:
"But their should be no versions of the holy scriptures as versions differs each other. The Holy scripture should be in one version that is original text."
So as I have shown above, there is no original Biblical text just as there is no original Quran. It is not possible when dealing with ancient materials. We do the best we can with what we have.
"So the bible have no complete original text but have different translated versions. one version is more latest than the other."
You see the same thing with Quran translations. When a verse is not uniformly translated, you often see 3, 5, or even 10 translations quoted in order to get a sense of it. When it is still not clear, you go back to the Arabic. Similarly, we look at the Hebrew or Greek when not sure about the English Bibles.
"So without the original text it is impossible for us to find the authenticity of bible from the different versions of bibles as they differ from each other."
Such it is whether dealing with translations of the Quran or the Bible. In either case, we can compare the translations with the original language, but with both the Quran and the Bible, the accuracy of the available manuscripts are uncertain. But that is not important because we can understand the overall message. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
Dr. Sina has this to say about the differences between reading the Quran and reading the Bible:
"Muhammad claimed that his book is the verbatim words of God. Since God is infallible and cannot make even one mistake, if we find one error in the Quran it proves that Muhammad lied. We have found hundreds of errors in that book, if not thousands.
The Bible does not claim to be the verbatim word of God. If you read the Bible you’ll see that it is a narrative of different people, written by humans. According to the believers of the Bible the authors of that book were inspired. This is not the same as to say I have brought a textual message from God. I can watch a beautiful scene, become inspired and go home and draw it or compose a poetry describing it. I am interpreting my own experience. Of course my experience is subjective. The authors of the Bible claimed they were inspired, but in nowhere they said that any part of that book is verbatim words of God. The Bible does not say it is the exacts word of God, but a message from God.
So if there are errors in the Bible, one can attribute them to the fallibility of those who wrote it. The enlightened Christians do not get boggled by the words, but by the mesage of the Bible. The Bible was written by about 40 individuals whose names are recorded. However, the gist of the message of all of them is the same, which is diametrically opposed to the message of the Quran."
http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/comp…
I have spoken to you before about your nit-picking John 3:16. The difference between saying son and begotten son are no more significant than the differences between various Quran translations. The argument about John 3:16 is irrelevant unless you don't understand English or you are a Muslim trying to strain at a gnat for a doctrinal point while you swallow a camel.
"So My point was whether the original text of full bible ( not parts) is available or not??"
Question thoroughly answered in the above two comments.
Here are what the Muslim texts say about the original Quranic manuscripts:
"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost. Thus let him say 'I have acquired what is available.'" – Ibn Umar, As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an
"Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt." – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.510
"Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: 'You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you…'" – Sahih al-Muslim 2286
In what way were the hearts hardened?:
"We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: 'If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.' And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…" – Sahih al-Muslim 2286
"Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an), yet we leave some of what he recites. Ubayy says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.'" – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.527
"The prophet is closer to believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers." – Qur'an 33:6
Quran 33:6 Yusuf Ali Footnote: "In some Qirras, like that of Ubay ibn Kab, occur also the words 'And he is a father of them.'"
"I heard the prophet saying, 'Learn the Qur'an from four: Abdullah ibn Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin Ka'b.'" – Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.521
So Ubay was the best reciter and includes words we don't have in today's Quran of Zayd ibn Thabit. What did Muhammad think of Zayd ibn Thabit?
"The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd ibn Thabit." – Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444
"'O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of Zaid bin Thabit. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man' – and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: 'O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Masahif that are with you, and conceal them.'" – Jami At-Tirmidhi 3104
So Muhammad did not like Zayd ibn Thabit, but that is the Quran we have today.
"It was narrated that Aishah said: 'The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.'" – Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
"Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the Qur'an he vaguely remembered. To his deep sorrow, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of Yamama and that the verse was consequently lost." – Ibn Abi Daud, Kitab al-Masahif
So the Quran we have today is not complete. See also:
Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.509 – Quran passages lost – see also:
As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an part 3 p. 72
Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.509 – didn't want to lose more, so had remainder compiled into manuscript
Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104 – people started compiling their own manuscripts
Ibn Abi Daud, Kitab al-Masahif – differing number of chapters
Sahih al-Muslim 2286, Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.527 – entire chapters lost
Sahih al-Bukhari 6.61.510 – Uthman put out what he could and burned all of the evidence
So in conclusion, we see that the Quran of today was not considered the best available at the time, and is missing suras that other versions had, and is missing suras from memory loss, reciters lost in battles, and from being eaten by a sheep. We also see at least one example where a verse reads differently than it did in another version. In addition, modern discoveries of older manuscripts show significant differences from today's Quran, and we also see that all the previous Qurans were burnt by Uthman.
Original research by David Wood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91AM7665cbo
There is no original text of the Bible just as there is no original text of the Quran. In this comment I will discuss the Biblical text. In the next comment, I will discuss the Quranic text, and in the third comment, I will discuss your questions.
The One New Man Bible is a recent translation that says this about the New Testament Greek manuscripts available: It is "… a translation … of the United Bible Society's Fourth Edition Greek text, published in 1993. The editors of that text used a scientific method called Textual Criticism to determine which of the more than five thousand ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were closest to what the authors wrote in the first century. This method is similar to that used by the editors of the ancient Greek classics to determine the most accurate copies of those writings."
The oldest manuscript fragments date from the 2nd century AD, and the oldest complete manuscripts are even more recent.The majority of available manuscripts date from the 10th century AD.
For the Old Testament Hebrew manuscripts, the Aleppo Codex (920 AD) and Leningrad Codex (1008 AD) are the oldest Hebrew language manuscripts of the Tanakh. The 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls includes manuscripts a thousand years older of all the books except Esther, but most are fragmentary. These manuscripts generally date to between 150 BC to 70 AD.
See Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript
Not so. The word of God is the word of God regardless of the source. This is just another proof of the Quran's falsehood.
If exist can sanada-10000000 could help me ????
You said, This is a fallacy because the Quran says the Bible is the word of God and that the word of God cannot be altered.""
The quaran says the Bible is Gods word, is ok. and that the word of God cannot be altered is asserted regarding Quaran not for the Bible.
Dear John K,
You said "'"Another thing you should realize is that there is no "original" text. The oldest surviving copies are hundreds of years removed from the originals, so the possibility of error transmission is present."""
I like your writing. So is it not possible that trinity is a theory that is added later as Jesus(Pbuh) himself never claimed he is God or to worship him. It is best suits that he is a messenger of God.
And also I dont understand what is Godhead.
Dear Ria,
At first understand my question then answer. I have said that John 3:16 is changed and altered by omitting the world begotten. So how every version remains same. I have given here one example.
Translation and version is different things. Translation may differ as writers are different. But their should be no versions of the holy scriptures as versions differs each other. The Holy scripture should be in one version that is original text. So the bible have no complete original text but have different translated versions. one version is more latest than the other. So without the original text it is impossible for us to find the authenticity of bible from the different versions of bibles as they differ from each other. So My point was whether the original text of full bible ( not parts) is available or not??
correction ** burden**
So true and so tragic for both martyrs and their victims.
Yet their criticism is a fallacy. As anyone knows who has tried, repentance and following the Gospel are not easy.
When God make it easy, by taking your burned on him, you complain why is so easy! and so a man come and makes it hard which required your martyrdom for surety of salvaltion, millions follow him to hell.
"Unlike Quran Bible does not loose meaning when translated"
There's nothing special about Arabic. The meaning can be translated like any other language. What you lose in translations is the ambiance of idioms. You might not be able to translate, "birds of a feather flock together", but you can give the meaning of birds of the same type fly together.
Maruf
Above is whole chapter 53 from the book of prophet Isaiah. This is a very clear prophecy about Jesus in which each one was fulfilled. These prophecy were about 400 years before christ.
Intellectual, mathematician, and polymath David Berlinski is personally an agnostic, but he finds much evidence in the science that is suggestive that the account found in the Old Testament may be true:
David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyxUwaq00Rc
You want scientific answers; I suggest you read the book of job in the Old Testament in the language which you understand more. You might finbd better answers than you find in Quran.
Right. Paul said that without hope in Christ, we would all be in despair. This reached its apex during the Existentialist movement when the primary philosophical question was whether we should wait to die or all commit suicide now since we will all die someday and then dissolve into nothingness anyway.
C'mon Grace. Don't play the "devil made me do it" card.
John K, I've tried but just can't stop myself from visiting this site. That's why I need Harrel to ban me permanently from this site.
Mr Jonathan Harrel, please help me to ban my IP and I believe that it'll do us good. Thanks.
But thank God it is as true. Understanding Bible have taken out lot of uncertainties. I wish we could be the light and salt as Jesus asked us to be even in the virtual world.
"I logically had to come to conclusion if there is a God, Bible makes the most sense. Now if it is not true, I have nothing to loose. God in the Bible is worthy of my worship, praise love and life. He is absolutely holy; he will not tolerate sins, but yet loves the sinner, that he took all our punishment on Him. He is Just and merciful at the same time. A loving Father. If there is a God, he has all the character of what God must have."
Well said Ria. When I converted, the gentleman who interviewed me for my baptism said that even if it wasn't true, he would still want to live the same way.
Stop being so ridiculous, Grace. If you thought it was in your best interests to stay off this site, you would stay away on your own efforts without having to enlist help from me or Jonathan. You must have posted a dozen comments since you first asked to be banned, so it's obvious that you want to be here. If you really feel you need someone to control you, go check yourself into the psychiatric emergency ward at the hospital and tell them you need to be put in a straight jacket.
John K, John K, don't you know that Jesus Christ is greater than Joseph Smith. So, why a professional dummy like you can so easily fall prey into Joseph Smith's trap of lies and more lies? May I know where is your brain located?
The Bible says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was GOD(Singular) and not Gods(Plural). So, please do our beloved Lord Jesus Christ a big favour by announcing to all your Mormon friends that Joseph Smith was a liar and that there is only ONE GOD mentioned in the Bible and not 3 gods. B)
Acts 5:38-39
Mr Jonathan Harrell, kindly please help me to ban my IP permanently from this site. Thank you for your kindness.
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
But Islam is contradictory on whether Muhammad can intercede for you or not, so the best advice Islam gives to ensure your salvation is to become a martyr.
Here's a good link on Allah's adulterous relationship:
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/10/1moremusl…
"As Muslim's claim of Mohamed's prophet hood hinges on the fact whether the Bible was corrupted or not ?"
This is a fallacy because the Quran says the Bible is the word of God and that the word of God cannot be altered.
Well said Maruf.
Maruf, why do we complain about afterlife or death? Why didn't we do that before we were born? Why we must exist forever? It's all about your bodily function.
Maruf, love (literal) is absent in the Quran because it's all about duty and submission to Allah. Look at its marriage, it's not based on love too.
Dear Mormon John K, haven't you came to the ultimate conclusion that Joseph Smith was a horrible false prophet and liar after I've proved that there are three persons in one God, not three Gods? Please tell Joseph Smith and all his successors that God has always been a trinity from all eternity: "From everlasting to everlasting, You are God," (Psalm 90:2). The Bible clearly states that there is only ONE GOD and nowhere can you find in the Bible, any verse that substantiate Joseph Smith's horrible claims that there are Gods.
Yes. The best type of Bible for what you are interested in is the Greek text that has an English word below each Greek word. This format will not have readable English text, but it allows you to check the accuracy of the translation of the English edition you are reading.
The point you made on John 3:16 is trivial because all sons are begotten, otherwise they would not use the word son. But this is another reason the KJV remains popular. The newer translations are sometimes whitewashed for a particular point of view. Another example of this is modern versions that call Mary a maiden instead of a virgin.
Another thing you should realize is that there is no "original" text. The oldest surviving copies are hundreds of years removed from the originals, so the possibility of error transmission is present.
No. Do a word count on the Quran. The word love does not appear in the context of God loving man or humans loving one another like it does in the Bible. The Bible says God is love, and the greatest commandments are loving God and loving others. The god of the Quran has been called A God Who Hates because the Quran talks more about what Allah hates.
Maruff
If ypu have kept them all and will keep them all perfect, you might be a human exception and in that case you don't need Christ. Listen to Mohamed.!
So yes you are right your fate will be same as a criminal or non criminal without Christ, because even as good as you think you are you might have broken the law at some point in you life. Here is God's ten general law to abide by, see for your self how many have you broken or will brake in future. I must admit I am guilty at some point I broke them. If not all but some:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make unto thee any graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5. Honour your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet.
"Dear Ria, According to Christianity the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just to the Victim as He is not punishing the rapist. The God should also be Just."
God does not see you as a rapist or a non rapist. He sees you as sinner or a sinner. Whether you broke one law form the ten commandment or you broke all the commandments you are a law breaker. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, no where in the Bible does it say God's laws are not binding upon man. Keeping the commandments is not the method of salvation, but the fruit of it. Obedience to God is the test of the genuine Christian.1 John 3:4 "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and SIN IS LAWLESSNESS." That means break one law fromthe ten commandment you broke them all. If a man is hanging from a great height by a chain with ten links, and only one link breaks, he falls. The strength of the chain is dependent on its weakest link. If we willingly break one of Gods Ten Commandments, we are as guilty as if we break them all.
When your dead you`re not going to be thinking anything. Nothing bad is going to happen to you, no one is going to hurt you. What is their to be afraid of in the darkness? NOTHING don`t listen to muhammed and these other liars who use our fear of the unknown to control us, becuse they know where the power is and thats the here and now.
Maruf you have a chance! Wake up now! All I ask you to do this. Ask the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob for the truth. He will revel the truth and you will know it. Keep on knocking that door with this question WHO IS JESUS ? IS THE ISLAMIC JESUS TRUE OR IS THE HISTORICAL/Christian Jesus true?
If Islamic version is true God is merciful and just, he will forgive you if you doubts have no basis. But you got to ask.
I agree with you. You sound to be honestly searching for truth. My Hindu friend who got baptized yesterday is an example for me. She searched because she had a need; she kept on searching till God satisfied her quench. And there are millions like her, who searched.
Yes I would pray for Ali Sina or your or any Muslim brother or sister regardless whether they are for Islam or against Islam. Muslims is not the enemy. As some one said before "Muslim are the missing piece of my savior heart" It is God's will that none shall perish. Islam is a tool used by Satan to take away millions of soul to hell. Now why else would Islam hinge upon the denial of Christ? It is a Anti-Christ religion ? Do you think God will make Judas look like Christ on the cross to dupe millions through the centuries. God is not in the business of depict. Only Satan is !
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Please read the whole chapter if Isaiah 53, Jews read the same Isaiah and stumble on Isaiah 53, they don't know what to do with this chapter. But it is there in the text
Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Old Testament Prophesies about Messiah:
Isaiah 9 vs 6-7 (old testament about 400 yrs before Christ read like ) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Here is the Wikipedia link to the Dead Sea scrolls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
If you have chance to visit the Israel National Treasures you can see the collection of scrolls. If you understand Hebrew of Greek or the ancient language go for it, read it your self . Compare to the copy of Bible you have in hand. It will be the same. As Muslim's claim of Mohamed's prophet hood hinges on the fact whether the Bible was corrupted or not ?
The Muslims claims the Bible today in our hands are corrupted, but long after the claim, we discover the original text dated to the first century. If the Bible was corrupted the first century Jews and Christians were sorry silly people who corrupted the Bible. But Jews collaborating with Christians to put thing about Jesus in Old testament would be highly unlikely. But if it was corrupted before Mohammed time the Why in Quran does Mohammed tells his followers, if you have any doubts then go and refer the books given before. So Mohamed is tell to refer a corrupted Bible ?
Maruf
Not only Hebrew and Greek text are available, but the original manuscript is available. The complete manuscript of Isaiah is found. The text in original manuscript in Isaiah is same as the Bible you have in you hand (any translation) I never understand why Muslim can not get over versions and translations. Do you guys not have Quran translated in English by different people. Pickthall version of Quran translated in English or Yusif Ali version of Quran translated in English.
Old King James Version simple is the version of the Bible translated in old English language by King James. Unlike Quran Bible does not loose meaning when translated to any other language unless deliberately translated wrong.
Mr Mormon John K, please don't lead Mr Maruf astray with Joseph Smith's wrong teachings. Why Mormons don't believe in the Trinity – that there is only one God, when the Bible clearly stated that God is one and not 3 entities? Please dig out your KJV Bible frrom the ground and read Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE!” and 1 Cor 8:4 “Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but ONE.”
Can you see all the ONE mentioned in the above Bible verses? So, isn't it true that the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a big liar? Kindly heed my kind advice and get out of Mormonism before it is too late. Jesus loves you. 🙂
Dear John K,
Yes truth is beneficial for us. If atheism is the truth it will be beneficial on earth during our lifetime. The atheism is neutral for us after death for both the atheist and theist. But I could not wait till my death when the atheism will be absolutely proved.
Dear John K,
So christianity and Islam is similiar to this both has loving god.
Dear John K,
I decided to read bibles, which bible I can read. Is there any original text of bible is available in Hebrew and Greek.? As I informed that each version of Bible is different from the other. For example;
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Here the word "begotten" is omitted in the NIV .
So is the original text is available.
God is just. The rapist cannot get out of his personal hell until he repents. When repentance is complete, thorough, and sincere, he will receive forgiveness. But that does not mean an equal reward, for Jesus taught that his Father's house has many mansions.
Yes. Like Peter, James, and John as the early leaders of the church. Peter as the primary leader, but James and John also as his assistants. So God the Father is the one we worship, and who Jesus worships. But Jesus the Son is a God, and the Holy Spirit is also a member of the Godhead.
Dear Ria,
According to Christianity the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just to the Victim as He is not punishing the rapist. The God should also be Just.
Dear Ria,
According to you the fate of the rapist and the victim is same as the God is loving to both of them but not just. The should also be Just.
Dear John K,
You said, Three persons, one purpose.
Is it three God and one purpose?
Islam will only take you to Hell. Read the Quran, read the Hadiths. As a non Muslim I read your Quran, I had no opinion about Islam before reading it, then when I read your Quran and Hadiths I formed an opinion and it was not a good one. (I read it because I entertain a thought of being married to a Muslim for a while, and he asked me to converted to get married Thankfully it did not work out, because of my strict Christian parents). I am not ashamed of my experience of four years but because of that I learned so much about myself and my God I looked up why Islam is different than Christianity. So I had to look up Christianity, a faith I was just born into, but did not understand . I had no opinion about Christianity. When I understood it, I understood God's heart and his love for me. It is my personal experience and no one can take that away from me.
It connected for ME. But only after answering all the critiques within my self. I am at peace with myself.
Love is foreign concept for logical human being ? A loving God who does not wants to send you to hell for your sins is foreign concept for a logical human being. ? A God who hate sins but loves the sinner is a foreign concept !! ??
At least there is A WAY!! Try it !! See if for yourself , see if you become sinless or want to sin less.
What is that supposed to mean?
I have previously given you a comprehensive answer. Don't you read the things people write for you?
The simple answer is that Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his Father are one. That doesn't mean one person. It means one in purpose. Jesus was not a ventriloquist at his baptism when the voice of the Father came out of heaven saying, "This is My Beloved Son" and the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Three persons, one purpose.
Hi Maruf,
The abbreviation KJV means the King James Version. It is the most widely used translation, though it is fading in popularity recently in favor of modern English versions. It is not the original text, or even the first English version, nor is it a perfect translation.
The reason it remains a preferred translation is because it was written in an era when people were still cognizant of a high language for literature as art (belles lettres) that was considered more appropriate for the sacred content.
I use the KJV myself, but personally I find the difficulty of the language to be a distraction from understanding the content at times, so I also use the J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English when reading for comprehension rather than devotional purposes. Similarly I prefer Bill Warner's Koran because it likewise flows in easy modern English. Both Phillips and Warner use complete sentence structures rather than let the verse structure interrupt the train of thought.
The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek. In my edition of the KJV, while the KJV text is intact, scholars have thoroughly gone over the original Greek and Hebrew and added footnotes to the King James text to indicate a clearer meaning where the old English is archaic or if they felt the translation was not rendered accurately.
Dear enlightened25,
You said, The atheist can prove that their is no god or afterlife.
Proving no god is not beneficial for us. In no god situation we theists and atheist all are same destined.
So no we should try for the true God.
Dear John K,
You are telling from some versions of Bibles. Which is the bibles original text?
Yes again a foreign concept for a logical human being.
Dear Ria,
You said,
for just a very few seconds, God the Father couldn't stand the sight of Him.
The more odd explanation attracts more questions. if the father seperated from the son for a few second than how the 3 =1.
I have not found in Islam no such odd explanation.
You Write : And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible.
My Post
[BTW Bible don't say the Jesus takes away the sin so a Christian become sinless, but for sure if they are truly saved the sin less. (Hope you understood the pun). Actually what Bible say is Jesus died for your sin, so you don't have to PAY for your sin. And why does He pay for my sin, simple answer is He loves me. And if I love my Child beyond myself, I would also die for for him/her. And about consequence of sin, you pay for the consequence (like you contract a disease for sexual sin, or go to jail of theft and get killed if you don't live by the law of the land etc), but God does not send you to Hell eternally for your mistake and sins. Again foreign concept for a muslim, God is love in Bible for he say "For God so love the world" ]
Now why did Jesus cry out "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?" As His mission reached its fulfillment and He was held personally responsible for all sin. Because, with that immense load of guilt, our guilt, upon Him, for just a very few seconds, God the Father couldn't stand the sight of Him. He and Father are never separated ever before in infinity. Now is the time were father for a MOMENT can not stand the Son, thus the Son cries out, it is His love for His father and vice a verse. Again this is a forgein concept to a Muslim, because there is no concept of love in Islam.]
You Wrote : If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it.
My Post :
[Yes you need to rectify your thoughts before you pen it. You need to read the whole chapter to understand what is the going on …not just read out of context. For you let me quote at least the whole verse
•"And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani. And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. And the curtain of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing Him, saw that He thus breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!" (Mark 15:33-34,37-39)"
•
You Wrote: I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ???
My post:
[What is your point? You think Christians in any society, specially West who devote their life in researching Bible did not see what you saw and learned and thought it is your got ya! moment, Seriously !! To understand what a Christian concept of trinity, it is not a skin deep topic as you say it so casually" So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? " It take time and effort to research and understand things. I think that is foreign to Muslims because they just repeat what they hear from Zakir Naik or others like him. Take time to read and research what Christian scholars say about Trinity and not what Muslim scholars thinks]
“I don’t know much about Islam, but I know there is peace in it”
Maybe you should first inform yourself about Islam and then make that judgement. There is no peace in Islam. You will come to see this fact when you know it better.
Mr' Sina, I wish to say that when we are chagrined with life, we tend to believe only what we see and reject the incomprehensible. There is Love, Existence, Life which is the real definition of God. I am secure in my conviction of God. God is sexless, non-partisan and father/mother to all. The New Age movement are the very ones who're defining God in a newer scientific light, albeit with a lot of superstitious tinge. Please don't be in a hurry to claim to know everything about life, we do not know even an iota of anything. Don't dismiss God with a wave of hand for God defined as the perfectly still zero is the balm that calms every soul. Look within you, there you will see God in silence. Skeptics like you (I do not mean the word derogatorily, but as a label) who're atheists remove the beauty of God from man. Nietzche's God was dead, but God still exists in our collective unconscious. The fall of Europe is because of its crass materialism and atheism. America is on because of the consciousness of God. No religion has the answer. God is beyond religion, but his messengers came to give us a touch of love which we erroneously translated to religion. Finally, I wish to say that your diatribe on Islam bothers on frustration and hate. No matter what you may let us believe. I don't know much about Islam, but I know there is peace in it at least the sufis are peaceful. Please use your energy for something better. Islam is not the problem, people are. And you're starting a hate-filled wildfire. Shalom.
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This post is duplicated. I already answered in the other thread.
Hi Maruf,
Thanks for your questions.
The Christian Godhead actually consists of three persons.
God the Father in Hebrew is Elohim, and in the English Bible (KJV) is usually (but not always) rendered by the translators as "God".
The Son, Jesus Christ, in Hebrew is Jehovah (YHWH) (I AM), and is usually rendered in the KJV as "Lord".
The Holy Spirit is rendered in older translations as Holy Ghost, but the English sense of the word "ghost" has entered more into the category of superstition, so it is used less in modern translations.
Jesus told the disciples to be one as He and his Father are one. So the three members of the Godhead are one in purpose like the 12 apostles were one in purpose. They are not one entity. Your example of Jesus on the cross calling to his Father is a good one, and another good example is the baptism of Jesus where the voice of the Father spoke to him from heaven and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. So clearly these are separate persons. Jesus was not a ventriloquist projecting his voice into heaven to say he was pleased with himself.
The New Testament, especially Paul's letters spends a lot of time explaining that the reason Jesus had to come and pay the price for our sins is precisely what you are talking about – the law of the gospel and the law of Moses both condemn us because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.
Since Jesus was the only perfect man to ever walk the earth, the rest of us would be cast out of heaven forever. Since Jesus paid our debt for us, we are released from debtor's prison and eligible to enter heaven.
This is on the condition of repentance, which means trying your best not to sin anymore. So people who behave badly would be excluded, but the Bible says there are only two sins too serious to be forgiven – murder and sin against the Holy Ghost.
There is some indication that those who were not aware of the law can be forgiven. There are some testimonies from Muslims ex-terrorists that say they found Christ and experienced forgiveness.
Afshins's Story – Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3VqbhVDtM
Kamal's story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccio1vE41M
Double junk post, auntie. xD
Try to answer queries here, will ya? He already explained that Harrel has his user name.
So, try to find its "true" attribute using your rationality. Don't get stuck to some dogmas. You have already decided before searching it if you insist to use certain belief to search a fact. Find it first then use it. Are you aware that god can do anything? I mean, literally, anything? This opens new possibility, be it good or bad.
@ sina
Do you and Jonathan Harrell share a computer? Or you are him?
I noticed that the poster's name of "You should suggest that he read my book. The new edition is being translated into Tamil." has changed from yours to Jonathan Harrell.
Dear Sanada_10,
I want to say that recognizing the true GOD is the first of all. Then the other things.
Dear John K,
Could you pls explain me the following because I am perplexing about the things::
I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it. And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible. There may be some flaws as we see in between pastors, bishops who sexually abuses the teens and commits sins. So what will be the consequences of the sins committed by him long after believing Jesus (PBUH).
I have learned that one of the Christian God died on crush by his own people by lamenting and saying ELI ELI LAMA SABATTANI meaning Oh God Oh God why you have forsaken me. So there remain Two Gods == one God. Is it true ??? If I mistake pls rectify me. What is the explanation of it. And the bible also says that All Christian's sin is taken by Jesus (PBIH) Christ and died. Human nature is attracted by the sins. There will no human be found on earth who can fully follow the bible. There may be some flaws as we see in between pastors, bishops who sexually abuses the teens and commits sins. So what will be the consequences of the sins committed by him long after believing Jesus (PBUH).
So, you decided not to play probability anymore (heaven and hell must exist)? Your assumption is fixed here. Why is that? Are you playing cherry picked wager? Are you sure you are on the right way to classify yourself as truth seeker because when you start putting your own answer to your own question, you won’t be one.
Dear Sanada_10,
Thanks.
According to me after recognising the true God then concept of heaven and hell will come.
I agree with you. Focus should be on the living Christ, not the dead and suffering Christ. Some in hospitals have said that a crucifix helped them in their suffering, but certainly it has no place in worship services, and, as you said, takes on the aspect of idol worship.
So, You are not too selfish after all but how could you follow the selfish concept of heaven and hell? Does that mean that you are already prepared for your mom's death as long as you are safe?
Since you don't know it then on what purpose god does that to you? What strange thing he possibly has in mind while he deliberately confuses you like this? What kind of frame you put when you think about "god's teaching"? Can religion in your search list answer these questions?
If you want to play similar wager you should add the possibility, not using the old Pascal's. Everything progresses, Maruf.
There is nothing eerie about the simple Johrei calligraphy scoll. The Chinese/Japanese character meaning "light" was written on it in black ink. It is a miracle that Divine Light emanates from it.
When I saw an idol of Jesus hanging from a cross in a church I felt eerie. Why is it neccessary to remember the suffering of a man in a happy place where we sing hymes to praise God ?
For a change try the universal Divine Light at Johrei centres. Click "Johrei UK/USA/Asia/ Austrlia n u can find the centre nearest to yr home. The test of the pudding is in the eating.
5 or 6! what a laugh! Muslims are leaving Islam by the millions. And that is a statistic from an Imam asking what can be done to reverse that. Your survey isn't very scientific Maruf.
And so what if everyone was becoming a Muslim? Would that make Islam good? No, it would just increase the number of people suffering. I thought you were looking for a new religion. What happened to that?
You should know this is a fallacy called Ad Populum or Appeal to Popularity. Humans love to fool themselves by submitting themselves to someone else, they don`t have to think that way and face reality. If you doubt that, then look at all these charlatans who fooled millions of gullible fools.
Youtube? Wow! That is amazing.
Have they considered the research conducted by the late Dr. Ilyas Yunus that stated around 75 percent Americans left Islam after just a few year being a convert?
And have they considered also the number of people who have left Islam worldwide?
I am willing to bet that the number of people who have left Islam is a great understatement. Considering Islam encourages killings of apostates and all.
Youtube
Dear Sanada,
You said, """"Now, imagine you and your mother were inside a burning house. Your mother got locked up and couldn't get out because of the fire. What would you do? You run alone and you would be saved or you took the risk to save her? """"
If I see that it has a possibility to save her than I will take a risk to save her.
If I see that it is impossible to save her than I will not go to save her.
You said, """"With all of these, I shall add another question to you. Does god want you to be selfish or is it just a test for you? Can god lie? Playing wager is like this, Maruf.""""
I can't answer this because I have not yet found the true God and His teachings.
I have not knew about the Pascal wager earlier, Ali Sina informed me about the wager. Accidentally my thought was became similar as Pascal. I was surprised that this thought is not new.
and… what is the source? xD
and add also,
yearly 4000 converts to muslim in Germany
4200 in England
20000 in USA and other countries……………………………..cont……………………………….
and much more video in Youtube but against them a few muslims ( 5 or 6 yearly) converts to other faiths but have no video.
"this refers to all the gods from every conceivable religion"
It's not possible to make such a sweeping generalization. You might cast out the religion that has the correct God.
I strongly concur too, shafeek.
Someone, (I don't remember who) said – "I cannot have faith in a god conceived by the human mind" and this refers to all the gods from every conceivable religion extant or extinct; I strongly concur.
That's the idea, to always be seeking refinement and improvement of our concepts through new information and insights.
Alisina never say u are not supposed to oppose him logically.
thats the difference.
For free book selling: I would say: Why not Muslim shopkeeper distribute free Quran.
Same for if you are christian Hindu or anything.
I am not fan of Alisina, nor I am completely agreeing to him. But I advocate freethinking and allow him to say what he want to.
About myself I have a certain concept based on logic what I have observed. If someone can logically prove my concepts wrong I am ready to change my those set of concepts rather practicing fools concept.
That is logical way evaluating things ,if you have a better logic to prove this wrong please let me know
Hi Maruf,
Well can you mention all the surah and ayat numbers where this scientific revelations have been given ?
Let me clarify I am an Atheist.
So lets consider hindu scripture , where they say , souls can neither be created nor destroyed but changes one fomr to another.
Some intelligent of 21st century related this to conservations of energy and indestructibility of atom.
You read all the Hindu scriptures and you would find more number of such scientific facts than that are present in Quran.
Hindu have several religious book containing multiple times of knowledge than is contained in Quran.
Do I am sounding like I am Hindu, which I am not.
What I mean here is any relgious book conatain mattre that can be realted to sceince, but that juts amattre fo concidence.
Let me explain this further:
Verse 30, Surah Al-Ambiya (21) Para 17
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were one piece. Then, we parted them.
21 st Century Islamic intelligence claim this to be the revelations of formations of Universe.
Now their are two means to interpreting this:
1. The one is relating it to science as formation of Universe.
2. The other is : We as Sons/daughter of Adam were born on earth which was like heaven. God become furious on us and sent us to reality and in the way separating earth and heaven. The earth was no more like heaven thereafter.
Also please note Heaven is not space, heaven is a place containing land and trees and river (as per Quran) with all goodness.
So separating heaven from earth means separating a good place and earth. So in no way it looks as a story of formation of Universe.
Similar case apply to hindu and other religions. You can relate any way you like.
You read all the scriptures and can relate them to science, but this actually depend upon what conclusion we wanna derive.
You have born as an Muslim, that why you wanna relate it this way.
I am an atheist I wanna relate it my way.
Also adding to my point I must say if god wanna reveal things than why has he wrote unclear Jargon which can create ambiguity , why not clear cut explanations. He is the almighty who can explain thing in the best possible manner understandable to man.
read all other explanation given in Quran, I am sure I can relate them the other way.
You do not want to hear me because U want it to relate it your way (and same for me).
Now just think of you were born as an Hindu and you read their scriptures and found such facts in their book written 1000s of year prior to Quran, you might have believed in Hinduism more firmly.(and believe me such Jargon are written in hindu scripture as well)
Similar is the case for other religions.
If any scripture claims that this is true word of god why any topic is explained in Jargon.
Further adding I can tell you several mistake in each religious books:
example:
ex1.: as per Quran: An-Nisa(Chapter 4 verses 19 :25)
Explaining to whom we should marry and to whom we should not.
Now as we all are son and daughter of Adam and Eve (first man and women) as per Quran.
Adam is the prophet of Allah, that means he did all what allah told.
So hoe we were born than ? as because allah say you cannot marry your direct sisters.
So how can Prophet Adam allow their sons and daughter to marry each other and produce children.
No Offense against the God or Allah, what I wanna say God words can never be false, they must satisfy all the terms and conditions as he perfect.
And you keep on searching Quran or any other religious book you can point out several mistakes in them. IF god has written them why they are wrong.
Now to conclude What I want to say, is as per Zakir Naik, that as god has given as canine teeth to eat meat(I am a vegetarian and i think Zakir naik is an idiot which I would prove later) . the same god has given us Brain to think and evaluate.
Think , think and think. For how to think read anekantavad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada
John K, USA is a very big country to infiltrate n there are too many skeptics like u, esp. the rich n powerful who have their specialist doctors to care for them. Johrei may take a slow n steady approach but many want instant miracles. Frankly speaking, most medicines are poisons as they are not our natural food n have side n after effects. Many surgeries are quite unnecessary just because the surgeons want to make money. Many specialist doctors simply overcharge, or give unnecessary medicines n “extra” treatments to gain more profits. Some give wrong diagnosis n the patients suffer unnecessarily. Don't blame them coz they had spent fortunes to earn their medical degrees n to set up their medical practices. MONEY MAKES THE MEDICAL WORLD GO ROUND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO PAY THROUGH YOUR NOSE.
Right. 20 centers aren't many in such a large country. A large city like LA could easily have 20 centers alone since the city is so big that if you live on one side, wanting to see something on the other side is as bad as a trip to another state.
I missed this announcement on the server upgrade. On Sep 6 they said they would have the technical difficulties solved in a few hours. As the saying goes, everything takes longer than you thought.
http://alisina.org/server-problems
There about 20 johrei centers in the USA, as it is a very big country to infiltrate. Click “ Johrei USA” . under it u click “ visit us – Johrei fellowship “. U will find all the centers in the US, including the centers in L. A. , San Francisco n San Jose with their phone Nos n emails listed. NOTHING VENTURE NOTHING GAIN.
Hi,
I thought you were in Malaysia? Did you move, or just travelling?
All 3 of Ali Sina's sites get attacked from time to time, so it may not necessarily be your country blocking it.
What you can do is access one of the article pages. You can still get the conversation updates there in the right hand column.
If you have to use the cached copy, Intense Debate will still load the comments section even if AliSina.org is down.
Hope this helps.
John
Dear John K, Condolences to the victims of many natural disasters happening now in the USA. In this age of baptism by fire n water, everyone directly or indirectly wll be affected. So be prepared for the worst. Beware of earthquakes in California. The access to alisina.org in my country, Thailand, has been blocked. Can u please teach me how to by-pass this blockade. I have used bulwark but it take a long time to reach the cached copy. Lately, I can’t even reach the cached copy. Please help. Thank u.
Dear John K, Condolences to the victims of many natural disasters happening now in the USA. In this age of baptism by fire n water, everyone directly or indirectly wll be affected. So be prepared for the worst. Beware of earthquakes in California. The access to alisina.org in my country, Thailand, has been blocked. Can u please teach me how to by-pass this blockade. I have used bulwark but it take a long time to reach the cached copy. Lately, I can’t even reach the cached copy. Please help. Thank u.
I'm sorry for your friend's tumor, but a recently released study found no connection to cell phone usage.
POLLUTION OF THE AIR, WATER, SOIL AND HUMAN BODIES ARE GETTING INCREASINGLY ACUTE. In another 50 years, this earth is not a livable place. In our homes we have dirty electricity abound – diseases-causing radiation from our electrical appliances. Low radiation also affects our brains when listening to cell phones. We receive mercury fumes from dental amalgam daily. The air n water we breath and drink contain harmful chemicals. The food we eat contains Insecticides, pesticides n other harmful metals. More n more of these pollutants are causing us all kinds of diseases, some of which are incurable. HELP ! Do we need God's light to battle these diseases. Read the reports from wikipedia in my next posting.
Right. Keep trying to impress me. I suppose you haven't seen my two posts on the LHC on this site.
You obviously have no real training in science because of the nonsense things you say about what science can prove. Who cares if the Higgs Boson is revealed or not? It means absolutely nothing theologically. It's only value is for the advancement of science.
Who are you to decide when God should or shouldn't reveal himself? There are plenty of top Christian scientists. Why should we even listen to a nobody in the comments section?
"The entire line of reasoning is fallacious. The existence or non-existence of God is beyond the ability of science to prove or disprove"
This is not true. In a very short time time, science will once and for all prove whether or not God exists.
To end the discussion once and for all, scientists at CERN have built the world's largest (and most expensive) machine called the Large Hadron Collider. They want to recreate the Big Bang in miniature and see if the experiment reveals the so-called Higgs Boson. The Higgs Boson is a theoretical particle that has the ability to "seemingly create mass on its own" (thus it is sometimes referred to as the God particle). Theoretically, the Higgs Boson should reveal itself right at the moment of Big Bang. If the Higgs Boson is not revealed, this will be the last nail in the coffin for people believing in God.
On August 22 scienctists at CERN stated that they confirmed with 95 % certainty the NON-EXISTENCE of the Higgs Boson (God particle) at mid- range energy collisions. They still need to search for the Higgs Boson at high and low energy range collisions. The final conclusive results will be ready in about 12 months.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-145…
If God won't even reveal himself at the moment of Big Bang, it means that he doesn't exist.
Your entire post is full of fallacies. How many religious people did you interview to discover that "Religious people always think that they have nothing to lose if they believe"?
All it takes is one religious person to disagree, and you have made a liar out of yourself.
The entire line of reasoning is fallacious. The existence or non-existence of God is beyond the ability of science to prove or disprove. So your essay could equally be rewritten as follows:
"But considering the evidence, it is much more controversial to claim that God(s) does not exist than claiming God(s) do exist. So far, atheists have no evidence supporting their views.
As long as there is no evidence that God(s) does not exist, the theists are right. The burden of evidence lies on atheists, and therefore they have much more to lose than theists. Just look at the various dicussions on the internet: It is always the atheists who try to find evidence of God(s)' non-existence everywhere. Theists can just sit back and laugh at their stupidity and childish attempts to prove themselves. Atheists know they got nothing and it hurts and torments them.
The reason why people don't believe in God(s) is because they don't want to think. Everytime atheists can't explain something they blame it on God(s)' non-existence and just leave it there. These are the so-called laws of nature. It is only a matter of time before thinking people (theists) solve them. Miracles have nothing to do with God(s) doing this and that. They can all be explained by God's use of natural laws. Everything has a logical explanation.
Atheists wish God(s) are product(s) of our primitive ancestors' imagination. Atheists reflect their projection of our ancestors' insecurities (this is also why atheists fear God might be real) and lack of understanding of the world they lived in. Once you understand this, you will understand that you won't lose anything by believing in God(s).
– All thinking men are theists -"
See Ann Coulter:
The Flash Mob Mentality of Scientific Inquiry
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45747
This is typical. Religious people always think that they have nothing to lose if they believe. Like it is the atheists who have to prove themselves. But considering the evidence, it is much more controversial to claim that God(s) exist than claiming God(s) don't exist. So far, theists have no evidence supporting their views.
As long as there is no evidence of God(s) the atheists are right. The burden of evidence lies on religious people, and therefore they have much more to lose than atheists. Just look at the various dicussions on the internet: It is always the theists who try to find evidence of God(s) everywhere. Atheists can just sit back and laugh at their stupidity and childish attempts to prove themselves. Religious people know they got nothing and it hurts and torments them.
The reason why people believe in God(s) is because they don't want to think. Everytime religious people can't explain something they blame it on God(s) and just leave it there. These are the so-called miracles. It is only a matter of time before thinking people (atheists) solve them. Miracles have nothing to do with God(s) doing this and that. They can all be explained by natural laws. Everything has a logical explanation.
God(s) are product(s) of our primitive ancestors' imagination. They reflect our ancestors' insecurities (this is also why religious people fear God) and lack of understanding of the world they lived in. Once you understand this, you will understand that you won't lose anything by not believing in God(s).
– All thinking men are atheists –
ALLah hu Akbar, pray 5 times a day and fast in the month of Ramadan, slaughter the infidels and conquer the world in the name of Allah to land in an imaginary paradise and to get the services of 72 virgins with trillions of others.
Allah hu akbar, Muslims killing Muslims b'coz of wrong input of messages. And the ragtag army could not fight with the enemies b'coz it is at the receiving end of the remote-controlled missiles and bombs (drones attack ).
Allah hu akbar, MISSION TERMINATING. AND PEACE WILL REIGN ON EARTH.
BTW, "ALLAH" SOUNDS LIKE " I LIE ". And the loud speakers blasting 5 time a day, " I LIE IS THE GREATEST ".
Ha! Nice user name! Glad you finally got your own!
Hi Maruf, Join Johrei and receive the light of God to prove the presence of God. I doubt you have a Johrei center in your Muslim country. Check the net.
Don't let your life be hijacked by the evil cult which never bring any happiness to its followers. It asked its followers to fight n kill, and they are sacrified as pawns to do the dirty works.
Wake up, fellow human and don,t be the slave of any imaginary god. Free yourself from the shackles of Arab imperialism. Good luck to you.
"Every single religion out of 100 will be correct, the probability is 1% for each." This is not true at all they could all be false. And even if one of them were true say islam then christianity, judaism, hinduism etc would all be 100% false. Of course non of these religions or gods are true. The atheist can prove that their is no god or afterlife.
You don't answer a question with another question, Maruf. We, human, naturally always wants to save ourselves in every circumstances be it small or big. This is the self defensive trait we have as a creature and often lead us to selfish acts. We got it because of our bodily function and this is just our, religiously speaking, temporal host. This function can be damaged if humans have disease, mental defect, and disorder. If this is damaged humans cannot think like the way they usually do and of course this is also odd from religious point of view.
Why could religious people commit suicide? It's because this function is gone, overwhelmed by their despair on this earth. I've asked you another question too, remember? It was about eating.
Now, imagine you and your mother were inside a burning house. Your mother got locked up and couldn't get out because of the fire. What would you do? You run alone and you would be saved or you took the risk to save her?
With all of these, I shall add another question to you. Does god want you to be selfish or is it just a test for you? Can god lie? Playing wager is like this, Maruf.
Dear Sanada_10,
I will answer you first you answer the question that "" Why you should not save yourself first""""
Why do you want to save yourself first? It is in here and here
"So according to Probability theory my religion Islam, it will be correct, its probability is 1%."
That assumes they are all equal, or in other words, that you cannot tell the differences. If you have 100 black boxes, then each has a 1% probability. But if you can open each box and examine its contents, you can reduce the probabilities by finding the ones that can't be right, like Islam for instance.
You say you won't find out Islam is wrong until the next life, but there is ample proof, both physical and ethical that prove Islam is wrong. You can learn that for yourself here and now. Dr. Sina's writings facilitate that because he has organized a complex field of data that would take more time for you to unravel for yourself. But anyone with a conscience and a Quran can read and learn for himself that Islam is not from God.
Have you tried to pray and ask God and find out if prayer works or if it is a fraud? My church was started because a 14 year-old farm boy took James 1:5 literally:
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
The Book of Mormon is also the world's only book that promises that if you read it and ask God, he will tell you that is is true. This vastly narrows the odds. Read the Book of Mormon. It will change your life:
Moroni 10
"3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your chearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=e…
Hi Maruf,
You want me to suggest any other better religion than Islam. Actaully any religion is better than Islam. However, I have answered this question thoroughly. Please read it here. http://alisina.org/which-religion-is-good/
Dear Sanada_10,
what was your question? could you repeat here?
Like I said, you are limiting the wager here. You took an assumption that god only exists and must exists through these religions. How about old and new religion, how about future religion, how about another possibility? Maruf, religions are more than 100. Do you want to study it all? You don't have enough time, I assure you. Btw, you still haven't answered my questions. So far no religion can prove its claim. It's like there is no real house available. Giving it 1 % is too much.
Dear wiser433,
You Said """""you should imagine that you live in a danger or burning home and somebody tells you to go out from there, will that person who tells you to go out from a danger house need to provide you a house"""""
The argument is that Mr. Sina says the house(religion Islam) where I currently live in, is a wrong one or bad or poses danger which will be proved after my death (assuming God exists). If God not exists than every person is equal destined whether religious or atheist.
We suppose that there are 100 different religions in the world.
So according to Probability theory my religion Islam, it will be correct, its probability is 1%.
Christianity will be correct, its probability is also 1%. Hinduism 1%, Judaism 1%, Every single religion out of 100 will be correct, the probability is 1% for each.
If I now came out of my religion(home) I even loses my Islams 1% also. If a christian becomes atheist than he/she also looses 1%. Similarly it is also applicable for every other religious persons.
I am taking 0% instead of 1% by becoming an atheist.
Therefore Mr.Sina must suggest me any other better religion(Home) that Islam because I am even loosing my 1% hope to 0% hope. So why I will go to a loosing position.
Therefore I suggest myself not to become 1% to 0%, rather suggest to become 1% to 100% by doing some homeworking about existing religions.
Right. It's easy to be all bluff and bluster in public, but at night when you close your eyes, sometimes the memories of things people said come back to haunt.
The problem is located in muslim's mentality. They think that everyone is the same with them. They always use their own standard to judge others.
like Mr Ali said, do not use other violent to justify islam violent. Mr Ali do not claim as messenger of God while muhammad did, and Mr. Ali do not have a follower, while muhammad have many devoted and willing to die for him and the most important things Mr Ali do not a raper, looter, massacre and so on like muhammad did. damn i really hate this man.
Oh! totally agree with wiser, Well said. Mr Sina is kind enough to dedicate his time to warn others from a evil cult. But finding alternative does not fall on Dr Sina plate.
May be. But he is still hearing the truth about Islam. Never know he might walk away some day and the credit would go to Dr Sina 🙂
Hi Maruf,
your analogy like if there is someone that asking you to leave your home then you ask him to provide you better home is not correct. you should imagine that you live in a danger or burning home and somebody tells you to go out from there, will that person who tells you to go out from a danger house need to provide you a house ? even a better house ? you are lucky to be saved and to be told to get out, and you should thank for it, you are grown up man you can think and build your own better better house after that. a real real house.
God Only Creates the material and We are the one who build our house.
How about Jaka Semprul?
jaka jaka what a long dumb list of words you says…..NO USE AT ALL… hahahaha …. i will follow your above example as other dumb muslims do to follow mohmet your "precious"… hahhahaha….
no kweeceng, you are the dumbest like your mohmet's camel…. hahahaha….
keceng… sure you do your homework… as imbecil you need it… read your quran or die! hahahaaha…..
ahaha…. you got the message..
It's all about defending ISLAMOFACISM…
as simple as that..
kweeceng….you are soooo clever my dear friend… i like you…. especially your mouth, my friend…. but sorry, i dont care about your fussing about salahudin or harun or else from your nasty islam world…. hahahahaa… go to hell….
Mohmet is only an opportunist who fools millions of ignorant peoples of the world, trying to make wealth out of others' sufferings….his ultimate argument as simple as: surrender yourself to my alter ego "ALLAH" or you die/suffer…
Muh promotes HIS "GOLDEN" rule… ALL HUMANS have to submit themselves to ISLAM or die/suffer…
so of course islam always says bad things about non-muslims IF they have already enough apparent real POWER to oppress non-muslims in any countries….
Muh and friends say their GOLDEN rule: oppress HUMANS for ISLAM (read: his wealth)
Muh and friends say their Golden Rule to get wealth out of others' sufferings so that they can enjoy their fucking lives….. hahahahaha….
wirosableng,
islam says.. buy my quran please… or your head will be chopped off
give your donation to our mosque or your life will be disturbed…
ahhaaaahaa…. the world will be much relieved without islamofacism
the world will be better without wirosableng cs…
hahhaaaaaa….
do not waste your life listen to islam bullshit fuckin mouth….like your ass, wirosableng….
yes.. kweeceng you must follow your mohmet to kill, rape, plunder, threaten all non muslims… and dont forget marry a baby girl like your precious mohmet.. walk your talk hahahaha….
Why make it complicated. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his Father are one. He did not intend for the disciples to be merged together into one entity.
The Trinity means that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose, not one and the same being. Jesus was not being a ventriloquist when he was baptized and the voice of the Father came out of heaven saying, "This is my Beloved Son" and the Holy Spirit came down in the form of the dove.
Or who was he turning to for comfort when he hung on the cross and called out to know why his Father had forsaken him? Too often we strain to make things complicated when they are simple.
My question to you is you have no problem God created these this the way it is. Yet you question the Creator how He can exist. You put Him in a box, just because you don't understand. You question how can, and my question is Why not.
But also ponder on the following meanwhile if you want to hear the Biblical Trinity, not the concocted Muslim version of Trinity:
Tell me how can one plus one plus one equal one and not three ? How is that Maruf (body) Maruf (mind) Maruf(soul) makes one Maruf, but still have very different three entities in one person.
How is the sun, the heat(energy) from sun, and the light from the sun, are three different element but originate from the same source.
In an atom-Electrons, protons and neutrons are three different sub atomic particles but yet it is a single atom. Three are so different in nature, it always existed the way it is, one did not come before another, one is not more important than other, their function are different in nature, it does not contradict each other but builds the same atom.
Water: Exist in three phase (state), solid, liquid and gas. Different state, serves different purpose, but yet same in nature.
If you want and answer which is truthful? Or are you being like other Muslims, they ask this question yet they don't want to hear the truth. They walk away with the same per-opinionated concept of Trinity. Most of them boastfully think that they are superior in faith because they worship one God. Yet they lack the knowledge of the concept. They think this question will humiliate the Christian and they will have no answer. Please let me know if you fall in the same category:
Maruf
Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.
Maruf
Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.
Maruf
Also I want to add a rapist in not my enemy, he is a criminal, he is rapist. Your enemy does not necessarily have to be a criminal. So if your enemy is not a criminal but he or she is a person who has ill will for you, or offended you in some way (not criminally) how you treat your enemy. Would you punish your enemy? Would you take law in your hands ? Or would/could you have a forgiving sprit and leave the judgment of that to God. I can have a forgive sprit but the person who offend me only receives my complete forgiveness once he/she ask for forgiveness. And once God pardon him/her after they genuinely repented, who am I to cast judgment? Dealing with criminal (an enemy that will cause) phyiscal harm to you or your loved ones-I have one word -SELF DEFENSE-.
Islam definitely is a religion that encourages selfishness and self-gratification at the expense of others. Muhammad got so much of his critical early support from greedy people who didn't care about selling their souls to the devil in religious matters and jumped on the bandwagon to participate in the loot, rape and sex slaves.
Again very well said. You have your thoughts very well organized.
So basically religion doesn’t teach morality at all according to you but it teaches human instinct instead. That means Muhammad was also a selfish person who utilized the very basic instinct of human race.
What I mean is: why do you even love yourself first? This is just human nature to survive in harsh environment, a product of our brain function, something we only have when we are alive. Imagine you and your friend got trapped in rubbles without anything edible at all. Both of you had only left one ration, what would you do? Share it or keep it to yourself? If there was no more left what would you do?
Another question, why do we want to eat?
You also missed my question about another possibility. Are you Pascal's follower?
Huh? Your behavior doesn't make other think if you know what I mean. Deliver the message proportionally, not like this. That's a cheap ad.
John
Being around so many Muslims and befriending them I see that modern day Muslims are just like good old Pharisees. Can you eat this; this is haram, that is halal. They have because so consumed by the outward appearance that in the process they forget about cleaning them self from inside. It amazes me that they think if they do wash them self, God will accept there prayers. Jesus rightfully describes, you clean the cup from out side but don't clean the cup from inside, you are like the grave which looks good from outside, but inside of the grave is rotten.
Well, the great commandments are to love thy neighbor as thyself and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
So if you don't love others as much as you love yourself, you are falling short of the standard. We all do, but the first step to doing something about it is to recognize it.
I am thinking as well as making others to think. Don't mind. Also applicable for you.
The person lies who tells that he love others more than himself.
Spot on Ria.
Right. Dr. Sina himself expresses that before he studied Islam he also thought it was good. There's an article about Moroccan women at Freedom Bulwark that talks about Muslims who are so illiterate about Islam that everything is measured against the standard that if it is good, it is Islamic, and if it is bad, it is un-Islamic. While Islam may claim some success at having brought these people under its subjugation, it's really a flimsy foundation and such people are subject to losing their love for Islam as soon as they start learning something.
Love you enimes is part of the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament. Audience of this sermon were Jewish people, who were followers of law. Specially Pharasies Who wanted to just keep the law to please good, but Jesus illustrate that mearly keeping these laws are not enough. If you don't kill, but you have the hatered into you heart, what is the point. You did not comit adultrey but are buring in lust, what is the point of keeping the law.When Jesus said we are to love our enemies, He was creating a new and higher standard for relationships. He says loving those who love us is easy and even unbelievers can do that. He commands us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” by using an analogy of the sun rising and the rain falling on both the good and the evil, Jesus ask us to leave the judgement to God himself, but again he did not say ever that you shall not defend yourself.
Amen to that brother. You must try. " Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you ".
And when you find the truth you will know it, because you will have peace and never once will you have doubts that you can't overcome.
John I agree with you. I have lot of respect for Dr Sina and his work.. I understand leaving Islam can be dangerous for one, and is unlike leaving any other faith. And now because of his work lot of people can see what real Islam is. I had muslim friends who are good people but have no clue about real Islam and the founder of their faith. One searching for the answer just have to read quran in conjuction to Dr Sina's work.
Everyone has to find God in their own personal spiritual experiences and studies.
Everyone is born with a conscience. Follow your conscience and practice the Golden Rule, and you will be way ahead.
So, here's the situation. You believe Pascal (who ironically was a Christian) more than anything on this earth because you don't even add another possibility. Tell me, is this selfish or not?.
Their own philosophers were/are atheists, and agnostics.
If God exists, I think it is the time for Him to come out of the secrecy of cloud and tell us what He really wants from us. We have been too long and tired to debate about Him. Sending His messages through His allegedly deceptive messenger has proven ineffective.
http://www.youtube.com/user/exmuslim1811?feature=…
It's astonishing the mental gymnastics these people will go through to avoid accepting the facts.
It's one thing if you want to be fanatical about something harmless like Apple vs PC people, but in Islam it is a matter of life and death.
It's hard to understand the mental sickness that motivates them to cling to Islam.
Maruf, don't behave like a troll. I'm serious.
Done that too. You should pay more attention.
Bibi Ihsan, when will you be honest? My answer is the right answer. Why? It’s because I’m not ignorant like you about Bible. Remember trinity and Quranic mistake on that? Yeah, the one which have been avoided (as usual) by you? This is like that. You have emulated your prophet’s ignorance perfectly. When you want to talk about Christian you go to Bible and look its teaching, not to Quran like you. That’s irrelevant. Do you want me to use other scriptures when talking about Muhammad? Learn to play fair, kid. Or your parents never teach you fairness?
Remember, ignorance cannot teach knowledge. It can only ignore it and bound to repeat itself.
Anyway, why did Jesus do the same thing as us, sitting, eating, sleeping, talking etc? Your question doesn't hit the target if you know what I mean.
A diligent one. She carefully chooses which one is "safe" for her. Don't want to eat "unhealthy" foods, do you?
@ John K
May be it is not important to you, but it is important to us. If you want to ignore the Priests backing off, ok but here:
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed." NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39
So can I ask you again why it sort of tells us that Jesus did similarly with what Muslims do. Prostration?
According to Blaise Pascal (in article http://alisina.org/what-if-god-exists/) we should believe in God. Because if we now believe that there is no God, but after death suddenly found that there is really a God, then no scope to rectify, straight looser. But If we believe in God in this life, then we will be in safe side whether there is God exists or not. So what we have to do is to find out the only true / loving God among the Gods in various religions.
If Dr. Ali Sina was honest, suppose one of my friends called me, Maruf come out of your home, right then I will asked him where I will live at night? If he could not provide me another home than he has no right to call me come out? My friend should first manage another better home for me if he wants me to leave my current home. But Mr. Sina is not doing that he should have at first come up with a truer / lovelier God comparing to Muslim God before asking Muslims to denounce their faith. But without giving a solution he is offering a problem. This proves that Mr. Ali Sina has something evil hidden in his mind.
He also suggests that to live ethically this will be enough for you. I am also agree with him in this regard.
But who will decide the ethics meaning which is bad or which is right?
Somebody tells, looking to a woman is bad, somebody tells looking is ok but touching is bad, somebody tells shaking and kissing is ok but adultery is bad, somebody tells everything is ok if both agree. Somebody tells Gay is very bad, some tells no it is their right. Some tells to be vegetarian is right , some tells no everything which is permitted can be eaten . Some tells bikini is perfect because it reveals the whole beauty, some tells no- woman should be modestly covered. Doctors say alcohol is harmful but it is permitted in many countries. Some says gambling is bad because it looses man financially, socially but many countries has permitted it. Some says interest is not bad for economy although it can’t resist recession, others tell that Islamic banking is less affected by the recession. A robber says robbery is good because he can earn much money with less effort and enjoy a luxurious life but the victim will say it is crime.
For these reasons laws of every country differs each other and there is a continuous clash between pro and con.
So the question is that who will define the good or bad or set limit. It is obviously the God, the Creator. Otherwise every right or wrong i.e. ethics becomes meaningless. So Gods presence/guidance is essential.
So what is Dr. Sina doing, he is trying to make Muslims ex, without suggesting a more true God/religion for them. He wants to bring them out of home to under the sun, rain, storm, danger. It is inhuman. He is utilizing his brilliancy, literacy for misleading people, for the evil of the society.
[email protected]
Dear Ria Mathew,
You said """"Bible makes the most sense"""
Could you help me explaining Trinity????
Dear Mr. Kafil,
I accepted your invitation. I have tried Mr. Ali Sina whether I could be benefited by his solution. But he posses no solution posses only demuslimisation propaganda and deceitful debate.
Ali Sina has given away so many free copies in PDF files to. I'm sure kweeceng could get one too. I doubt he really wants to learn anything though.
kweeceng,
Do you want everything free of charge? If you want to gain knowledge by reading a book then you need to buy the book. Ali Sina can distribute his books for free if you bear all publication expenses. If you are ready to bear the entire cost, then contact Ali.
how convenient for a muslim to use pascale's wager hahaha what's the matter? can't find your own philosophers?
Well, talking about a carrot and stick approach, I'd say that fear of unknown punishments is a bit paranoid. Criminals are punished because they did something wrong. If you live your life doing good, and care enough about the question of God to keep studying it and searching, I think no real God could fault you. Did you ever try praying to ask God if he is real, and if so to help you find him? Many say they have found him with such a prayer.
Exactly. To love your enemies means to also be concerned for them too, and to act without hate.
So if you have to stop an attack, try to stop it without needless injury if possible.
And if you're gonna punish, do so with fairness and concern for all including your foes and without anger nor hate. And without drawing enjoyment from the suffering of others including from your foes.
Ah! So that's why you say "the market"!
Loving your enemies doesn't mean letting them abuse you.
I am tired of appealing & appeasing to the [sensitivities] of idiots. I challenge ALL their ‘gods’ … their useless imaginary friends and their proFITS … they have no powers !!! to even move a tiny object off my desk !!! I can do it, with my [middle finger] – I cursed ‘allah & Mo-Mad’ day & night – all i receive in return is more understanding and power over their hold on the human consciousness.
muslims are idiots – so all other [Be.Lie.Fears] – There is a [New Awakening] – a window of opportunity for all humanity to [advance] past all these retarded linitations of the only ONE GOD [everything that IS] – there is no seperation between the ‘divine’ and the ‘mundane’ – WE ARE THE ONE – All Life – from Cosmic to Quantum – You are the ‘gods’ that you w’H’orship – stop [praying] stop [wHorshiping] – Find yourselves in others and bring that into the [essence] of who UR as an individual – A drop in the ‘ocean of life’.
Free the MIND – Let it guide you – at first – there will be [doubt & confusion] that is the [field] of resistance that we all must face – many fold back and return to the comfort and safety of [Be.Lie.F[ear]S] – their search ends and the [play] goes on.
Some – persist through this stage of [D&C] – by denouncing [FEAR] and embracing [Knowledge] – no matter the obstacles – they will eventually [breakthrough] the LIES and find their [true connection] to All That IS – Then, they will be able to resist the onslaught of the [be.lie.fears] – it is tough and lonely – especially if one comes from a muslim background – muslims are ordered to [kill those who stray from islam – brother, child, parent, etc… all have no value if [allah and his Mo.Ham] are rejected by a [born muslim] – and this is where the most destructive aspect of islam is evident – it tears peaople/families/societies apart – It is Poison to Life and a contradiction to the First and foremost principle Law of the Universe [CHANGE] – any religion that follows a [written script] is FALSE – it simply contradicts the one and only [supreme constant] in the Universe – CHANGE.
The gods and their proFITS fear change – and the more strict the rules of a cult are – so the Lies & the Evil hidden in the teachings.
Free UR MIND – the rest will simply ‘follow’. Do not be guided by [emotions/heart] – the Heart has only one function [pump blood] – it has no other functions – the evidence – are many humans with a mechanical pump replacing their human heart – suffer no loss of any of the [other] attributes that are falsely attached to the heart.
Religions cater to the [heart/emotions] – the weak [link in the intellectual process] – therefore, it is counter productive and will only lead to inner conflict.
You want something to [belief] in while you are here [alive in body] !!! then Do no Harm to Life and live with [mindful attention] to every motion in Life around you. Let that Beauty guide you and bless you with abundance – inward and outward.
Then why the [F***ing] ???
It is necessary to plant the seed of rejecting something that it is so deeply woven into the fabric of our consciousness – it is not easy to abandon the [trail of belief] – it is a struggle within – and as words made it possible to accept these falsehoods – it is important to [voice] their rejection. Thoughts form Words – Words produce Actions [motion] that will return back to [higher levels] of Thought, with every cycle of understanding – an [addition] is made – an upgrade – evolution – Change; this way, one is always evolving beyond the limitations of [form in matter] – they only see [Flow].
GOD is you yourself on earth!
You are NOT a damn slave on earth!
Mazda gave you a damn brain,soul,conscience,heart and choice!
With free will,mind,soul to be gods on earth to take care of our wonderful Animals,Nature and the whole
damn univerce!
So every one has a life in harmony,peace and welfare!
Use the shit on the head which calls brain so you find all the answers,eventually,ofcourse!
And just like Zarathushtra said:
IS OF YOUR ACTION,you will be judge by others! Good deeds is never wrong at all!
If you doing all these and be punish?!!!! Then is something wrong with the shithead,morons call him
4 god!
No damn gods will or love EVIL DEEDS,only god of darkness would do it NOT the light one!
Dear Ria Mathew,
You said ''love your enemies""", It does not work every where. Suppose Somebody gangraped your sister. Then is it ok for you to love the rapists?????? and after more more love to them you may offer yourself to be raped by them. Sometimes it is essential to give punishments.
Dear Ria Mathew,
You said, """out of millions of lies, how do you find the absolute in them.""""
I will try, If I found ok. If I not found then at least can tell that I TRIED. So why not try.
Sanada_10,
You asked , ""Why do you think that you must follow a religion?Is it to save your life?
Yes, I want to save myself by following the most truthful religion according to Blaise Pascal because I love…………………………… ………… ……….. myself most. I want to avoid uncertainty with my beloved life. I am afraid of torment of fire, poisonous snacks, dangerous things, other unknown punishments( if any) at first. And want the paradise, Joy, Luxury (If any).
Dear Ria,
You love Mr. Sina because you are a christian and he is only against Islam. You would pray for him to find the truth because you want he might seek Christianity as his truth.
But regarding religion We have to be proactive not reactive? We should not be affected by anybody's decision. We should decide ourselves. All the materials are in front of us.
Ali Anis,
I understand your anger with Muhammad and Allah. Allah that Muhammad depicted in his balderdash Quran is not the same Allah of the Meccan Quraish tribe. Muhammad invented his own Allah to bully both his gullible followers and those who rejected him in order to gain power, wealth and women. Be happy that you are enlightened and free from the clutches of the most evil cult of Islam.
Relax, Allah and Muhammad was certainly not the guy (without s). If they can be the guy so can any layman.
Dear Ali Sina – You are doing the world a big favor – i was raised muslim – then i realized the absurdity of that cult of one sick & devious man – Mo Ham Mad – islam is not only a cult !!! it is the worst of all cults [all other religions]. Educated muslims are by far the dumbest people on this planet – i don’t blame the [bottom feeders] – the ignorant mass – blame the educated who still pray and fast and , and … rituals tailored for fools.
I don’t give a F*** if there is a ‘god’ – am not buying this whole [play] – this [absurdity] !!!
Live with the G rule [ DO no Harm & Do as you Will ] – F *** the ‘gods’ and all their [ProFITS] – they are the cause of every evil that has befallen humanity since their [invention].
Even if allah & mo ham mad are the ‘guys’ – F *** them – i want hell – anyday – than being with that filth – the company of a pedophile …
And reading Bible too. If someone wants to attack any religion, at least she should know what the belief really is before opening her mouth.
Auntie of the market. The cherry picker.
No problemo.
Desperate again auntie? The answer is already here. Do your homework first before you spit something you don't know. Everyone can see that.
Grace or auntie?
It's not important. In America we believe all people are created equal. What's irritating is when people haven't done their homework and come and act like they know something.
Your time would be better spent reading your Quran so that you can be released from the brainwashing of this medieval death cult.
Go do your homework and come back when you have educated yourself. Who has time for ignorant people like you?
There's plenty of public information available. You don't need access to classified sources.
Yes, do read the history. Every time you open your mouth you show how uneducated even Muslims who think they are educated are. It's obvious that Islam does not produce knowledge-based societies or people who know anything. [That means you in case you didn't notice.]
You can go to Wikipeida and read about the so-called Dark Ages. You will learn that the times were not dark for Western Civilization. We had plenty of accomplishments. What made the Dark Ages dark were the MUSLIM CONQUESTS and their destruction of documents so that it is very difficult to do historical research. That is what Dark means.
You don't have enough knowledge to say anything, so you should just read and learn and not try to speak unless you have a question about something you are trying to learn. That would greatly reduce your public embarrassment, shame and humiliation that you are experiencing. The way you talk now, people are just laughing at you. You should take better care of yourself than that.
And what's the difference? How about the only civilized democracy in the Middle East which has been threatened with all the barbaric Muslim nations surrounding it that for some stupid religious reason think that Jews should be killed and Israel has no right to exist?
Right. Just like the people in the insane asylum assuring each other that they are not sick.
i am not laugh at him. but at you stupid john.
he do not feel great about himself, he feel sorry about your stupidity
yes.
but, hey, doesn't israel have WMD too?
mr K,
you say DARKNESS .
Read the history.
it was Islam civilization who bring the light to Europe.
so Europe can come out the dark ages.
read the history my stupid fellow. so you may argue in a more civilize way.
plenty WMD in Iraq? ha ha ha …. where've you been stup. where did you read that? tell me.
send me link from 1 trusful well known source which stated : plenty WMD found in IRAQ.
1 example. the most recent one. you still don't answer. only 1. you claim it
's thousands. i need only 1. that muslim = robbers
who cares about past history … a ha … you runaway now. you ignore. you affraid. you scare to talk about it. islam made total mess? ooops …. give me 1 example of that.
illogic. some people wrote sina email. he answered. and he ask them to buy his book. not say that he will send them book. so ?
far greater religion from what scale? how many hindus today? how many hindus country, so to say? 15000 years? ridiculous.
fight againts islam? for what?
you will pray? towards what? illogic.
@ John K,
Ooops, sorry, I withdrew my statement about you being an ordinary person. I noticed that you are a scientist. 🙂
But ,
I still want to ask you (perhaps you can answer) why the priests backed off?
John K, it appears that she desperately wants to convince a Christian here since she failed on everyone else.
Auntie, I've answered that. Your word is wishful thinking from your ignorance on Christian faith. Back to my 6 questions if you have some gut. It's not about how a Christian think but what had actually happened. It's all about seeing the real and bigger picture which your brain is incapable of.
Quit the joke will ya? You are here to shove your view not understanding anything. You avoid answer and question. How's that called understanding?
Talking about yourself?
Hey, isn’t Iran has been trying to get his hands on WMD’s and threathen to wipe out Israel?
What makes you think you know anything about my knowledge about the Bible? What makes you think you are talking to an ordinary person? You people come on here and think you can deceive everybody when you have no idea who you are talking to. Everybody just laughs at your ignorance and arrogance, so don't feel too great about yourself.
Yes mister ignorant Muslim supremacist who tries to tear down knowledge and replace it with ignorance.
I don't buy your fake games. Sorry.
Plenty of WMD found. What's wrong? Don't you read? You really should read more.
Who cares about the past in those countries. ISLAM MADE A TOTAL MESS OF ALL OF THEM. They weren't worth cow manure when the Europeans got there.
Robbery by a Muslim? Muhammad was the first Muslim robber. You really should read more. Thousands of the faithful have followed his perfect example since then. Muslims cannot prosper by industry. They only live off the industry of others.
You obviously don't know anything about the oil industry do you? Just proves my point about you Muslims not being industrious.
For centuries all the people believe the earth was flat. And now what happened ? Therefore, don't take psuedo truth to be the truth when it was exposed.
excuse me? knowledge you said.
tell me your knowledge about Salahuddin Al Ayyubi then.
then about Harun al Rasyid
then Avicenna.
Averroes.
Yes, go to any Johrei center n receive the light of God. Learn the teachings therein. The light can help yr health problems. Check with the internet.
Are you smarter than Michael Hart ?
sure you do. as moron you need it
i don't take moron. i let them go to Sina.
Hallooo where have been?
George Bush invade Iraq based on A disastrous lie. Iraq have WMD. where's WMD?
For that thousands of innocent Iraqis die. Gratitude you said? thousands innocent dies because of
a lie, then you ask for Gratitude?
European to help completed Asian civilization you said?
ooops …. this is clearly shows how moron you are.
do compare.Egypt in , say, 1000 BC versus Britain in 1000 BC
India in 500 BC vs Britain in 500 BC
CHINA in 1000 BC vs FRANCE in 1000 BC
GERMAN IN 100 BC vs PERSIA IN 100 BC.
WHICH CIVILIZATION ARE MORE SUPERIOR?
EUROPEANS WERE ROBBED ASIA, AFRICA AND LATIN AMERICA.
ASSIST TO COMPLETED CIVILIZATION ?
THAT DISASTROUSLY STUPID.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HERNANDO CORTEZ DID ?
PIZARRO?
ABOUT VOC? CULTUUR STELSEL? APARTHEID?
EAST INDIA COMPANY?
Anyway, you have not answer me :
give me 1 example of robbery that muslim did recently. just 1.
my IDIOT FRIEND,
YOU ARE SO STUPID TO SAY ABOUT BUILDING CIVILIZATION over A cruel inhuman systematic hundred years of robbery
NO IRAQ OIL? ha ha my stupid friend pls read more.
@ John K
You said:
"That's because you are not here for understanding. You are here to peddle your Muslim supremacist agenda and to replace knowledge with ignorance and light with darkness."
On the contrary, I came here for understanding. Those priests were not ordinary people like you and others in terms of their knowledge about the Bible. They had lived their lives with it. Too, in the Bible doesn't it say that Jesus did prostrate and prayed to God?
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed." NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39)
Is it possible that the priests witnessed Rasulullah prostate so that was why they understood Rasulullah was telling the truth?
Any clue, Mr. K?
We learn from them all. The important thing is that you survived it. Some mistakes can cost us our life or other serious consequences that are irreversible.
Thanks John. It was hard at the time. But God can even use our mistakes.
Wolf in sheep's clothing. If you were an honest Muslim you will tell him that those who reject Muhammad will burn in hellfire forever.
Why ? Coz I don't buy in your monkey theory or Worship a monster profit.
Day by day this muslim is turning to a troll. She posted to attack people individually, not looking for genuine answer. If there is an answer she will ignore it and seek another people.
It's clear you didn't read the previous post. What's the matter, afraid? I've got 2 questions and numerous blunders on your so called "clear narration" and you avoided it again.
I've answered it, auntie.
Er, I've read it. The rest of your list has nothing to do with this. It doesn't erase the black stain of Islam.
Islam has no golden rule so why do you even care about it? Islam has insulted all infidels. Beside the words he uttered is a charge. He's charging Muhammad, not insulting him. Truth hurts and politeness is not truth.
I'm indonesian.
Ah, calling your self eh, kweeceng? As I recall, kweeceng's character is also pretty stupid but talented in fighting only. That's pretty accurate minus your bad mouth, eh?
write to me here: [email protected]
Hi Maruf:
I suggest you keep on the journey of searching the true path. By definition God is merciful and understanding. So, if there is God He will guide you to the right path. Even if you die while searching for the correct path, I firmly believe He will forgive you because He understanding. You can at least tell him that we searched for him. That is most important thing to do in life. To search for the real path. During this course you will learn alot. You will be able to distingush between the right and the wrong. You won't be sent to hell if you are wrong. The important as I said is to search the truth. Read all the religions and their sects. Decide yourself. I have chosen Islam over all religions and sects. Write to me if you have any questions or doubts regarding Islam.
Agreed.
Neither did he answer my question, which is similar to yours.
(Looks like) this guy is playing with you all.
That's because you are not here for understanding. You are here to peddle your Muslim supremacist agenda and to replace knowledge with ignorance and light with darkness.
@ John K,
Hi Mr. K
You have not helped me understand why the Christian Priests backed off when Surah (QS 3 : 61) was read to them.
"And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie. "
@ Prithvi
I noticed something in your writing:
"No one was either superior or inferior to the other in any manner."
Then whose narration here you that want to present to explain why caste systems became very strong? Your last arguments on this are simply unacceptable knowing that inter-caste marriage was not permitted.
Aren't you intelligent. I think I will quit my life and become your disciple.
Ton of fun, no?
You should really be ashamed to come and show your ignorance and idiocy in public.
US came to Iraq to save a Muslim country – Kuwait. How much gratitude do we get for it from Muslims? Obviously none from you.
How much oil did we take from Iraq? You don't know do you? Because we didn't get any.
Europeans should have held on the the colonies until the people had completed their civilization. Leaving the Muslim countries half-baked was not enough to save them from Islam's barbarism. But WWII got in the way. So I guess Hitler succeeded in his campaign to kill the Jews by letting the Muslim nations survive to do it for him.
John,
Different is, muslims aren’t as funny as Forrest.
I love Forrest Gump.
“Hi Bubba”
“Bubba was my best good friend”
Remember when Forrest and Bubba introduced themselves to Lt. Dan when they were FNG’s?
Lt. Dan: “What’s with your lip?”
Bubba: “I was born with big gum Sir”.
Lt. Dan: “Well unless you want to be caught on a tripwire you better tuck that in” LoL.
ha ha ha …. just give me 1 example. of the latest most current robbery you know.
US come to Iraq based on lie. then what ? US OIl company exploit Iraq oil. is that robbery?
European came to Asia, africa, latin america. colonialize. was that robbery?
If you listened to Dr. Sina your life would be 1000% better. "Try it, you'll like it".
Right on target.
"for how long the robbers can follow the thug and loots leader?
for 1400 years and more?"
Until they have robbed everything there is to rob. After they have conquered all, they will implode as they obviously are unable to sustain a productive economy.
"my dear,
It's very pitty.
seems like you are rather potentially smart.
but, how come you wasting your life listening Ali Sina?
pls explain me :
how come billions of people around the globe in five continents
altogether can be so stupid since 7th century up until today?
pls my dear, pls. do you know?"
Have you ever seen a bell curve? The masses are in mediocrity, and minorities are in extreme ignorance and extreme intelligence. I am selective about who I study. I only study materials from people who have something to offer. Dr. Sina clearly fits the bill. You clearly do not.
"it clearly shows you know nothing."
"you are nice. it's a pitty. you need to learn more."
I seriously doubt you have 1% of my education, knowledge, experience or professional qualifications. The ignorant come here to exalt themselves against the learned and then pat themselves on the back for it. It's like the inmates in the insane asylum all convincing each other that they are not sick.
Stupid is as stupid does. – Forrest Gump
Mr. Anand,
Trolls are textbook muslim reaction when he got nothing on Sina.
So many comments, zero refutation.
So many talks, zero truth.
That’s a healthy muslim for you.
Muhammad venerated black stone by giving respect and kissing it and thereby virtually worshiped it He made this idol worship an Islamic ritual but yet claiming to not worship idols.
john,
you are nice. it's a pitty. you need to learn more.
stupid
sanada,
tell me : what do you about know about indonesia?
for how long the robbers can follow the thug and loots leader?
for 1400 years and more?
my dear,
It's very pitty.
seems like you are rather potentially smart.
but, how come you wasting your life listening Ali Sina?
pls explain me :
how come billions of people around the globe in five continents
altogether can be so stupid since 7th century up until today?
pls my dear, pls. do you know?
Come on my friend,
you said that in one of your interview.
gotcha !!! you've lied my friend.
you surely can not be that smart. to claim that you have solved the mystery. billions of people live before you. 1400 years. billions among them must be smarter than you.
they must have solved it if it is as it is.
my friend, i know guy like you. many too many.
same pattern. same motive.
say something do other thing.
preach like a saint, bark like dog
provoke hate, inspire violence
i know guy like you.
many too many.
you will surely fail my friend. surely.
islam behaved itself?
…. what an extravagant simplicity.
it clearly shows you know nothing.
buy my book, my friend.
stupid.
sanada, have you read the book? have you read others book? have you read different books?
have you learn enough? have you travel the world visit and meet people different than you?
there is no way that somebody can preach what so called GOLDEN RULES while
his words harm other people.
it' s illogic.
Contradictio in terminis.
why listen to the guy who is not walk his talk.
Prithvi,
buy my book, buy my book.
you've been fooled and duped.
A guy like this Ali Sina. Hundred thousands of them during the whole history of Islam.
do not waste your life listen to him.
The world will no better without islam.
the world will be better without this Ali Sina
( at the very least, Breivik will have less 1 reference )
why bother?
you may called muslim, stupid, moron any which way you like.
but for human right sake, it's up to them. it' s their call. their choice.
you've been fooled. you've been duped.
That is a typical trait which makes me feel that maybe they also realise that they have been fooled and duped and now the effort is on for basically saving their face more than anything else.
Didn't Muhammad kiss the black stone too even after Islam was born?
So he very smartly mixed things from both the concept of monotheism (Judaism, Christianity) and the polytheism (the rituals mentioned above) and then made a new religion. MONOTHEISM + POLYTHEISM = FOOLISH MONOTHEISM. I am somehow not able to gather the name which he gave to his invention, maybe you can help.
The best part is that he tried hard for good 10 years to make people foolishly believe in his man-made mixture of religion but the 7th century people were not that foolish. Even his own uncle who raised him did not believe him.
That evil man was so hell bent in achieving his objectives and capturing this holy temple that he then decided to throw the garb of religion and picked up the sword.
He initially became a highway bandit but as his wealth grew by looting innocent businessmen he then finally attacked that holy temple and tore into it. Thousands of innocents perished for the lust of that evil man and are still perishing and would continue to perish.
Thanks for suggesting me to figure out the history Abdullah, I did, well just a bit.
This temple was a very important pilgrimage for people from all across the continent and they used to donate for the upkeep of that holy temple. The temple in the process became very rich and important.
I also came to know that an evil man came between them fairly recently with an evil eye on the wealth of this holy temple and started dividing the people and the harmony of the society.
He very smartly cherry picked things from the other religions available during that time and tried giving it a new colour.
For an example, as far as the writings were concerned, he picked up things from the bible and torahs, as far as the rituals were concerned, he picked up the same customs prevalent during that time and was being practised in that temple.
Cont.
I did Abdullah,
I realised that my forefathers used to visit their holy temple at least once a year.
They used to celebrate the holy month of Ramadhaan and were people of character and never used to fight or pick up a weapon during this holy month.
Their temple used to house 360 idols of different deities, all of which were revered.
They used to touch and kiss a black stones stationed inside that temple because that stone was also revered and important for them.
They used to have democracy in religion where in, inside the boundaries of the same one temple there used to reside deities from different clans and they were all equally respected. No one was either superior or inferior to the other in any manner.
They used to circumbulate the holy temple anti-clock wise 7 times.
Sacrifice an animal in the name of their Gods (which in my opinion is wrong but they used to do it, I do not)
Lastly also run between 2 mountains namely safah and marwah because they used to also hold the idols of two of their revered deities.
Cont.
Read my answer about that. Your clear narration doesn't do you any good. What a desperate muslim.
Now, now, auntie, before you run again and post another tu quoque fallacy, let me ponder you on these:
1. Does the “change of prayer” have any effect to the so called “communication and duty” to god?
2. Where did you get your own detailed prayer? Was it from revelation or mortal’s words?
@ Prithvi
Have you checked Prithvi? That the way you pray is still the same as it was when initially taught?
We would like to hear some explanation about that and by what means it's been kept original… 🙂
Do good and dont expect any rewards!
"I don't think you are logical."
I'll just give one fallacy from many fallacies he has. It's called argumentum ad populum. You just don't think he's not logical, he is, in fact, illogical.
Prithvi, he's one person from Indonesia and still ignoring answer just like his compatriot here.
Jakasembng & Kweeceng,
You both are dead right. May be writing a book and presenting to the world the facts in a scholarly and noble manner would not prove to be so fruitful.
May be following the footsteps of Muhammad would be more appealing to you both?
If only you would stick to your example stated above.
Going by this logic of yours, Hinduism is a far greater religion which has stood the test of time since the last 15000 years. Hundreds came to conquer it but were absorbed just like different streams are in an ocean.
Do you not yourself see idol worship as Blasphemy; didn’t your Prophet start off his career against the very concept of Idol worship?
So how come it has survived far greater upheavals since a time when even the forefathers of Muhammad were not born?
Just send Ali Sina an e-mail, he will send you the book. In case if he does, do have the guts to apologize publically on the same forum that you were wrong.
Kweeceng,
For a moment I say no one, no one knows the truth about Religion, God and Metaphysics.
Everyone is right in their own manner so what led your Prophet to start a religion by stating that what others are doing is wrong. Isn’t this the basic crux how he started his Prophet business?
Are you feeling bad because his followers are getting a taste of their own medicine?
Kabah was a temple since time immemorial and people from all clans used to worship their revered deities in that holy temple. So why did he go and say, what you are doing is wrong?
If some parts of the bible were corrupted why not prove it and make amendments?
Why is it that even after he spoke the truth, no one believed him and had a handful of followers and he had to resort to arms and butchery to capture a holy temple and increase his followers and his version of religion and his Prophetic career?
Going by that logic of yours, our own Ali Sina is a far greater person. He is presenting to you the truth which is backed by hard and verified facts originating from your own sacred texts and then he is leaving the choice on you. Isn’t he a far nobler person?
Cont.
Looks like Maruf is reluctant to answer my simple question.
Congrats for being willing to do what is right in spite of emotional involvement.
I love Walid's work.
Did Ali Sina put a sword onto your neck and forced you to leave Islam? (This is how the conversion of your forefathers happened)
If no then he is not IMPOSING his views on you. He is coming back to you and the rest of the world with some hard truths which is corroborated with facts. Now if you think he is lying, you can simply prove it and help your religion.
Even after you realize that what he is presenting with is the truth, he is not forcing you to leave Islam. What you do with the piece of truth is your decision.
Ali Sina is a human and not the messenger of any GOD whose one of the objectives is to increase the number of his followers and since his teachings do not have the power to make people convert, he resorts to threatening and further killing them.
You are wrong and jumping in thin air without a cushion to support your fall. You can send him an e-mail and he will send you the free copy of his book. Write a letter requesting him to send it to you. Make this allegation only if he refuses to send the free copy of the book and asks you to buy it.
This is the golden rule; he is saving humanity by exposing the lies of a cult which has fooled billion since the last 1400 hundred years. He is not asking you to follow any religion other than Islam; all he is doing is exposing the hidden agendas, the true color, the real motives and the hypocrisy at the core of this religion.
If you know something is evil then it is a service to humanity to let people know about it. You can choose what you want; after all even robbers follow a leader even after realizing that their leader is a thug and loots innocents to fill his coffers.
Cont.
Jaka Sembung,
It is not just Ali Sina’s responsibility but every human’s who has been given a brain to differentiate between what is logical and absurd, truth and lie, good and bad, genuine and fraud to promote the golden rule. This is how peace in the society is achieved.
This is what you need to realize, you think he says bad things about Islam where as he does not, he only says the truth, but the problem is that the history itself is bad.
If he will say, Prophet Muhammad slept with a 9 year old child when he himself was 53, you would say he is saying bad things about Islam.
If he will say, Prophet Muhammad raided and looted merchant caravans after moving to Medina, you would say he is saying bad things about Islam.
Cont.
“How come for 14 centuries billions of people from generation to generation
still take it as the path to follow?
A false thing will not stand that long.
many too many examples for a false thing that can not stand the test of time.
Ali Sina said : …. it’s a mystery …. ”
I’ts a mystery for you, but not for me. I have explained this mystry in my book. You also don’t have to buy my book. I will send the previous edition of it to anyone who asks me.
Believe me, at $2 a copy, he is not making a living. Plus he must give away more than he sells.
It seems your holy books don't follow your counsel:
So, why we bother to impose a truth which actually not exist?
Why don't we let each individuals enjoy their own truth.
Why bother to bother them.
Why bother to harm them?
The world would be a better place if Islam behaved itself in a civil manner as a good neighbor.
I know 2+1=4 is false. That does not mean I know everything else.
I don't think you are logical.
My encounter with Islam began when I came to America. Land of freedom. I was a Christian and was also born again. But when I came to America I had some good friend (who are still my best friends) who are Muslims, and fell in love with a Muslim man. Love became so intense for me (no so much for him I guess, he was no ready to leave his religion) I was ready to gave up my God for him. I knew it was not possible but I tried anyway. I read Quran to find what He actually believe in and it also open a door to educate myself in Bible and Christianity. I was shocked, that I claimed to be Christian all my life without understanding who God really was. I left him and I had nothing to do with Islam. After that I absolutely went after Islam to know everything there is about Mohamed and his creation (Allah). That how is stumbled into Mr Sina's site and go on it every single day now. If you are interested following is video of ex-muslim(Walid Shoebat) now a Christian perspective about Islam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW-5VrK3CVI
Great train of thought, Ria. One of the things I admire about Dr. Sina is that even though he doesn't accept the divinity or miracles of Christ, he does appreciate and respect the teachings. When I was investigating the church, a friend told me that even if it wasn't true, this is the way he would want to live. But of course, there is a reason that Jesus is the source of good in the world, and that Christianity is the foundation of all that is good in Western Civilization. "By their fruits ye shall know them".
Maruf
What is an alternative? The alternative is truth! You are right, Mr. Sina does offer counter to an evil religion because he himself does not have an answer. He was able to pull himself out of darkness only to go into darkness again. He is a skeptic or antagonist. He himself tells you that he does not know the answer. So why depend on him for the most important answer. I love Mr. Sina, and would pray for him to find the truth.
Aha …. you got the message.
it 's about buying the book.
as simple as that.
Maruf …. stop wasting your time writing very long of nonsense.
just buy Ali Sina book.
you'll be saved.
The book, please. Buy it.
You are wrong.
Ali Sina is not that bad.
He is only trying to make decent living by selling his book.
Pls do not judge him too seriously.
Dear John,
TRUTH HURTS.
Sounds nice.
Questions :
1. On belief on religion. On God. On Metaphysics.
Who can claim he/she know the truth about it?
Who own the truth about it ?
Which one is the truth?
What is the truth?
Humankind have been discussed about that subject for thousands years.
Still, no one can claim that the ultimate truth have founded
thatv everybody accepted undisputably as the truth.
Otherwise, we are now already living a mono-truth world.
Either All will be atheist, or All will be Agnostic, or All will take religion XYZ.
That's life.
So, why we bother to impose a truth which actually not exist?
Why don't we let each individuals enjoy their own truth.
Why bother to bother them.
Why bother to harm them?
2. ISLAM IS FALSE.
OK.
But, how come it still exist today ever since it was born +/- 1400 years ago?
Billions of people still attached to it.
Millions of people still ready to die for it.
How come for 14 centuries billions of people from generation to generation
still take it as the path to follow?
A false thing will not stand that long.
many too many examples for a false thing that can not stand the test of time.
Ali Sina said : …. it's a mystery ….
Hah …… ? a mystery ?
what a smart answer is that.
How come you claim to know the truth that a thing is false
while at the same time you can not explain why it can stand
for the test of time for 1400 years ?
a mystery?
…………….. after back and forth, up and down argumentations,
then finally stuck at MYSTERY ?
and….. : BUY MY BOOK …….
I do not think it is logical.
the think tanks.
Love and Regards
Ria~
Now Mr Ali may ask would a loving God send you to hell. Well I will say, God in the Bible is so loving that he took your's and my place, so that atleast there is –a- way. It is like if you are drowning I can extended my hand to you, without thinking about myself in danger, but you have to make a choice also to extended your hand to me to be saved. I cannot force you. God will not force you to make a choice, but he has His hand extended to you. Grab it before it is too late. Ask God of Abraham Issac and Jacob (God of Bible) who He is ? If He is real, he will not misgude you, instead of asking
Bible says " For God so loved the world, he gave is Only Son, that whomsoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Now what do you do with a statement like that. You choose to believe it or you choose to ignore it. Choice is the key. How do you make a educate choice ? You get information and you get information by due diligence and wisdom. How do you get wisdom? You ask. God in the Bible say "ASK and you shall receive" If there is a God, He is more wise and powerful that any one of us. And if there is a God, when you ask him (the true God) the basis questions of life and death He will answer. Make no mistake He will answer and when He puts the truth in you, then you make a choice to reject or except. If it is true and you reject the free gift of salvation which is extended to all the humanity, God does not send you to hell, you make a choice of your destiny.
I logically had to come to conclusion if there is a God, Bible makes the most sense. Now if it is not true, I have nothing to loose. God in the Bible is worthy of my worship, praise love and life. He is absolutely holy; he will not tolerate sins, but yet loves the sinner, that he took all our punishment on Him. He is Just and merciful at the same time. A loving Father. If there is a God, he has all the character of what God must have.
For me it was simple, I educated myself in evolution, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. As a engineer/scientist I also have scientific a background. Following was -my- conclusion.
Islam cannot be true, because Allah is not worthy to be worshipped. He does not love the non-believer. He does not require holiness, because he caved in to Mohamed's lustful desires. Quran itself claims Allah is best deceiver. That is not an attribute. And even if it is true, as a woman I rather be in hell, than to be a part of celestial harem. Hinduism depends on the deeds If Hindus are right I got right with Bible, cause Bible teaches to love your enemies, do good things even to who don't do you good. To forgive, to be kind, I can accumulate good deed. Bible says good deed are the fruits of serving a holy God, it is not the condition to go to heaven.
Evolution is a theory not a fact. It takes more faith to believe in evolution that believing in Bible.
HI Maruf,
Truth by definition is absolute. It does not change whether Pascal got it right or wrong! Or Mr Sina (who I really respect) got is right or wrong, If God exists, He is absolute, His truth will not change regardless Mohamed got it all wrong. One can believe what ever but God's truth which is absolute will not change. So the question is, out of millions of lies, how do you find the absolute in them. And it is the most important answer, because our destiny depends on it. When a person makes a claim there is no God, he is makes an absolute statement that he/she has infinitely and exhaustively search everything in the universe and came to the absolute conclusion that there is no God. But we know no one finite can know the infinity. So how does one find the answer.
Dear Ali Sina,
My comments are disappearing from your site, its unfair, lack of your courage from "Islam is fascism", "why attack only Islam"". Honestly are you fearing my comments? Then I am going to start a blog naming atheistlogics.wordpress.com only for you recently after my CA Exam only based on Blaise Pascal. I have observed that you can continue written debates for eternal period but you could not escape Blaise Pascal. This your and atheists only weakness……..!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? Y are invited to visit.S
Dear Ali Sina,
Thanks for commenting and read that your whole comment is based on the hadith mentioned about 73 sects.
I have home-worked that,
"It was declared in the Hadith that this Ummah would part into 73 groups, 72 of which would go to Hell. This Hadith informs us that the 72 groups will be tormented in the Fire of Hell. It does not inform us that they will remain in torment eternally. Remaining in the torment of Hell Fire eternally is for those who do not have Iman meaning belief in Allah. That is, it eternal hellfire for disbelievers. The 72 groups, on account of their corrupt beliefs, will go to Hell and will burn as long as according to potentiality of corruptness of their beliefs. One group, the 73rd, will be saved from Hell Fire because their belief is not corrupt. If among the members of this one group there are those who committed evil deeds and if these evil deeds of theirs have not been forgiven through repentance or intercession, it is possible that these, too, will burn in Hell as much as their sins. All of those who are in the 72 groups will go to Hell. But none of them will remain in Hell eternally. Not all of those who are in this one group will go to Hell. Of these only those who have committed evil deeds will go to Hell. The 72 reported groups of bid'ah, which will go to Hell, should not be called disbelievers, because they are Ahl al-Qibla (people of the Qibla in prayer). But, of these, the ones who disbelieve those facts in the Deen that are indispensably required to be believed, as well as those who deny the rules of the Shari'ah which every Muslim has heard and knows, become disbelievers."
"Where's your golden rule, Ali Sina?"
It's called, "The Truth Hurts". And yes, telling the truth is following the Golden Rule, even if it hurts. You will be so blessed when you learn that Islam is false.
As the 1884 Symbolist French novel by Joris-Karl Huysmans says, it's "Against Nature". Sexuality is not for self-indulgence whether for homosexual or individual hedonism.
"I'll ask them for their permission and approval first before I share my most sincere view and suggestions"
You would do well to follow your own policy. We all appreciate your contributions to the fight against Islam, but your religious views are well known and people get tired of you trying to preach to them all the time.
"If I find after my death that there is a God, hell,heaven what can I do then. can only humanity without believing that God can save me?"
Seek and ye shall find.
Just watched a video tonight, The Heavens Are Open. It said that the first members of the Mormon Church considered that the Book of Mormon was worth more than all the treasures of the earth. So I can feel better about my poverty now if I consider I was a millionaire, but had to spend it all to buy my Book of Mormon.
It's read not buy. He's giving free copy for muslim but non muslim has to pay. Foods are not free you know.
ali sina … just tell maruf to buy your book. that's it. as stupid as that.
HI Maruf,
The chance of Allah being God is nil. However, let us assume that Allah is god. Will you be saved if you believe in him? Not according to Muhammad. Muhammad said his religion will be split in 73 sects, the followers of 72 of them will be sent to hell. IN Reality Islam is split in hundreds of sects. Do you know which one is the right one? So even if you believe in Allah your chances of going to heaven is really very low.
Here is my advice to you. Let us assume god exists and he is so needy and so petty that will sent people to hell for not believing in him. If you don’t believe in God, and he asks you why you did not believe in me, you can tell him the same thing I’d tell him. I’d tell him, dear God, you gave me intelligence. When I used it I could not believe in the gobbledygook you sent through your messengers. However, I did my best to do good things in the world and not harm others. If God is not insane he will understand this logical argument and will not send me hell. If he is insane, he can sent even the believers to hell. You cannot bank on an insane god.
But what will happen if you go to him and tell him, Lord I believed in the devil, I thought it is you. Will he forgive you? I assure you he won’t. Not only did you not believe in him you actually insulted him. You believed in Satan despite the fact that the conduct of Muhammad was diabolic. Muhammad raided massacred and raped people and you did not think there is something wrong with all those things? They he will kick you to hell where you’d be roasting along with Muhammad and Allah. Then he will order the cherubim to not send any Muslim to him. All Muslims will be sent to hell without a hearing. It does not matter whether they did good work or not. As long as they worshipped the devil Allah, they will be sent to hell.
Ouch! Wouldn’t that be painful? At that time remember me and what I told you. One thing is not to belief in God but it is quite another thing to worship Satan. As a non-believer, I will have a chance to say now that I can see I believe. But you will have no such chance. You became the enemy of God and worshipped Satan and his messenger.
Ali Sina is only an opportunist who try to make money by selling his book. his ultimate argument as simple as : …. read my book. read my book.
He promote golden rule.
but he says so so many bad things that surely will do harm any muslim.
he say golden rule, but he insult others people religion.
he say golden rule, ….. but, he try to sell his book ..
Ali Sina promote “Golden Rule”.
Ali Sina said : It is not difficult to define good and bad. What can harm others is bad. Treat others the way you expect to be treated
This is the problem.
Ali Sina say bad things about Islam and muslim.
Ali Sina words do harm muslim.
Where’s your golden rule, Ali Sina?
On nudis and homosexual , Ali Sina said :
I have no right to impose my view on others.
What a man.
But, to muslim, Ali Sina always impose his view : ….leave Islam!
How’s your golden rule, Ali Sina?
Btw, after read and read Ali Sina arguments, finally :
Ali Sina ultimate argument is …. Read my book. It’s available in amazon and online.
ha ha ha …. this Ali Sina is only a guy who try to make living by selling his book!!!
no more no less.
Ali Sina is only an opportunist guy who try to make money by exploiting islam.
As stupid as this : …. if the book indeed is very effective to deliver the truth to millions of muslim so that they can open their eyes and leave islam. if that is so the case. and when people already leave islam, the world surely become the better place. why Ali Sina still bother to sell his book???? why don’t Ali Sina just give it for free??.? so many people can access it.
or, Ali Sina can ask for support from many rich people or institution to sponsor him : free Ali Sina books to muslim world for a better world!!!
Ali Sina, Ali Sina ….. during centuries, there are so so many person like you already.
try to make money by insulting islam.
try to sell book by denouncing muslim.
anyway …. how many books have you sold ? better than ‘harry potter’?
Ha ha ha ha ha … ALI SINA …. THE POOR BOOK SELLER …. BUY MY BOOK PLEASE, BUY MY BOOK PLEASE, YOU WILL SAVE THE WORLD, BUY MY BOOK PLEASE….
Ali Sina do not
But, do you know the ultimate goal of Ali Sina ?
and, at the same time his ultimate argument ?
well, just treat other like yourself want to be treated. if you cant, just treat other just like they are your family. If Im caught my son in their room secretly masturbate, I will close the door, apologize, and give advice like normal parent .
that what important. respect human like human. respect God like God.
respect God as (supposely) loving God. respect other human like one BIG family.
Everyone has their right to freedom and live as they want. If you want to believe homosexuality, masturbation and even hetrosexual sex where the goal is not pregnacy are disorders and "sins" then you`re welcome. Just don`t teach it to me and my children. If you think its the duty of the goverment to ban homesexuality and teach psedo-science to children and tell me who i can and cannot have sex with and indeed what position to do it in. Then you are my enemy and i will respond by any means necessary to take back my freedom. You can call it love but what it really is, is totalitarianism.
Dear Mr Arya Anand
Why such accusation against me? Where in the world did I 'beat' a boy for masturbating? What I mean is that will Dr Ali Sina sit back and relax on his couch and keep his mouth shut when he caught his son masturbating next to him secretly?
Mr Arya, what will you do when your son do that so openly in the hall, just next to you, while you are watching television? Please don't tell me that as a father, you just keep silent and not counsel him that it's wrong of him to do that openly.
If masturbation is done compulsively or became addictive, don't you agree that it will affect the overall performance of a person?
Mr Arya Anand, I suppose that you are still single. How can you say that masturbation is a normal sexual activity just like having sex with a wife or husband? Do you know of any long term side effects of masturbation? Must a kind and shy lady like me educate you on the consequences of what frequent masturbation will do to man's genital?
Dear Sanada_10,
Recently I read the article "Does God Exist" in http://alisina.org/does-god-exist/ and Dr. Sina concluded as follows "We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God"
So is it better for me to wait until the god is proved/ disproved?
Suppose I believed in my lifetime that god does not exist but after death suddenly found that their is god then!!! I will be a looser!!, straight looser!!!. I can do nothing to rectify my situation then.
I want to be in the safe side I want to believe in God. If I do this in both situation I will be gainer.
Although I am a born Muslim but I want to be Muslim/christian/atheist/……. by my own choice.
Dear Prithivi,
Thanks for you reply.
I am thinking that to whom do you pray for me, there also needs a super conscious something which somebody calls God.
I was talking about violence in Islam. The concept of "hijacking" Islam by so called extremist is not true unlike Anders Breivik.
Until this day, I see no religion is true. The truth doesn't depend on our wish because we, human, often use our own nature to define every thing, including god. That's a mistake. But if you are so adamant to search for religion, you can try other religion that has good deeds for humanity and most importantly, not violent.
Maruf, I just want to ask you one thing. Why do you think that you must follow a religion? I mean, in the sense of organized religion which has carrot and stick (not all religions have that). Is it to save your life? I see that is common in people but why do you want to save your life in the first place? Knowing this is important.
Then why are you for beating a boy for doing this act secretly? I don't know how it will interfere with one's daily life and activities as you say. It's a normal sexual activity just like having sex with a wife or husband.
Dear Mr Arya Anand
Masturbation is only considered a problem when it inhibits sexual activity with a partner, is done in public, or causes significant distress to the person. It may cause distress if it is done compulsively and/or interferes with daily life and activities
Masturbation is not bad and it is even scientifically proven good for health. It is not a sin at all.
Dear Dr Ali Sina
Last but not least, you said, "The point is that homosexuality and nudism do not affect me. My freedom ends to express my views. But I have no right to impose my views on others. You should stick to your values and ignore what others do. It is simply not our business. "
Yes, every human being is free and entitled to do whatever they like and this is human right. But don't you agree with me that there's a conscience built in us? That's the reason why you and me strongly promote and adhere to the Golden Rule. Though our value system differs in many ways, yet the Golden Rule lead us to a common goal and that is to love your neighbours as yourself. Don't you find that your above statement is contradictory? The least that a good samaritan can do is to try his/her best tooffer words of encouragement, hope and life to his/her neighbours. Don't you think so?
Dear Dr Ali Sina
You said, "But if I try to take away the right of homosexuals by abusing them in anyway, I would be in violation of their human rights. My freedom ends where the freedom of others begins."
I strongly believe that the government, churches and people everywhere ought to start to show their love, support, care and concern to homosexuals through various means or channels to help gays or homosexuals or lesbians back to the right moral track and not pass a bill for gay marriage so as to respect their human rights and freedom to continue to sin against God and their own body. This is not an abuse of their human rights or their freedom of choice. This is love your neighbour as yourself.
I would like to reserve my comments on the example of your vaccination because that is too personal however, I would end it by saying that I can be reasonably certain that your parents would also cry if they see you crying someday.
As far as all your mature examples are concerned, I think you missed out what Mr. Ali Sina advised to you.
“It is not difficult to define good and bad. What can harm others is bad. Treat others the way you expect to be treated” – Ali Sina
I would sincerely hope that you find that TRUE and LOVING GOD who would get down in the most detailed fashion to you like what to wear, where to wear what, how to feel when you see the opposite sex, rule for the doctors to vaccinate, dietary plans for the diabetics, where to have to sex, which foot to enter first in the toilet, hot to sit, which hand to eat, how to take a bath, rules for commercialization, how to have sex, what to say before having sex, what to say before slaughtering an animals for consumption, which side to face while defecating etc.
You did not hurt me for sure and I would still pray for you.
Sincerely
Dear Maruf,
I did not mind, be rest assured but the reason for that is the essence of the e-mail which you wrote.
How in the world did you take out the meaning of my suggestions to you as a policy for everyone?
That is not true; I was just writing how I/Me feel about a situation.
And for writing my opinions I do not need to consult GOD even, forget about any human, this is how I have been brought up and this is what is called as freedom.
Cont.
Dear Dr Ali Sina
You also said, "No person has the right to define morality for another person."
I also beg to differ from your above statement. Can you remember the Golden Rule? How in the world can you sit back and relax on your couch and keep your mouth shut when you caught your son masturbating next to you secretly? Or how could you keep silent for the rest of your life when your roommates watch porn movies daily? Is this respecting individual's human rights or encouraging your neighbours to continue to sin further?
Dear Dr Ali Sina
You said, "The point is that each culture has its own values and also each person has its own values. No person should tell others what to do and how to live their lives. This is abuse. No person has the right to define morality for another person."
I beg to differ from your perspective, my dear hero. Let me explain my point of view. Let's imagine that I, a civilized, knowledgeable and educated human being, went to Africa and discover such naked tribes, I'll ask them for their permission and approval first before I share my most sincere view and suggestions of them wearing clothes, so as to keep their body warm and also, for protection. Those aborigines have the right to accept or reject my proposal and I respect their choices. Everyone, including me are entitled to share our concern and love or voice our opinions to those we love. Isn't this part of human right? How can you say that this is abuse!
"at least we try to find out the true religion." Yes when you do that you will realise their all nonsense based in ignorance and fear. I used my brain but could not make myself believe in the gobbledegook of your human spokesperson. If that won`t do then what will? "If I do this then after death I will be secured. if there is actually no God then also I will be secured." The problem with pascal is he only presents two possibilities. What if their is a God(s)who does not judge based on belief or a god but no afterlife, afterlife but no god or their could be a satan and eternal hell for us all and no heaven for anyone.
Dear Maruf
Do you really need a religion in your life? Is religion that essential to know
rights and wrongs?
Your question reminded me with myself when I was younger. I was confused
and trying this and that, studying religions, and trying to find the right one.
It was not until I matured and had experienced life well, I discovered that
all religions are false, all of them are hog wash, all of them are mythologies.
As for the ultimate truth, or (God) , He might exist, and if so, he has nothing
to do with religions.
Just go to bed with clear conscience, do not harm any person or animal,
be constructive, not destructive.
Keep on searching, and you will finally find out that religions came
from the ancient mythologies (the Greek, the Babylonian…etc).
Go to the YouTube and watch this video: The Truth about Religions
Dear enlightened25,
We should not be on the looser side according to Blaise Pascal at least we try to find out the true religion. If cant find then I will be able to defend myself saying that I have tried but could not found instead of being gobbled so many assumptions. If I do this then after death I will be secured. if there is actually no God then also I will be secured.
Dear Prithvi,
You are becoming a dictator (don't mind) as you are setting the policies or limitations without consulting Dr. Sina or me.
But I have some others problems by following some hearts Such as:
When I was child then my parents took me to clinic for vaccination I can remember then I was very frightened watching the huge needle I felt bad but my parents/doctor did feel good.It is also applicable some adult persons also specially tiny hearted.
I saw some diabetic patients eating sweets secretly , they feel good but when doctors know this they feel bad.
Our Indian ladies loves to show their belly but the westerners seems its immodest.
Doctors say that a grown up healthy human will feel physical attraction to same young opposite, the doctors say it is natural if not then the person may have a physical problem should have a medic checkup. when this person walk in the roads and see other opposite he/she feels physical attraction. In that position can I say hey guy do as you feel good in spite of the opposite do not agree?
The British people once colonized major part of the world including our Indian subcontinent then they feel good because they believe in white supremacy but we feel oppressed.
So heart feeling good and bad becomes good for one as well as bad for others. There must be limitations as you said ""we HUMANS even have the liberty to see the sun without any clothes onto our body BUT there is a place for it, we cannot possibly do that in a HOTEL LOBBY"". You have set a limitation here that we cant do this in a hotel lobby. Some other people may be more liberal than you they may say no we can do this from hotel lobby as we feel it good doing in open places, we want people see us, its normal.
My question is that who will set these limitations? If humans set these limitations then there also comes the good feeling by some group and bad feeling by some body. So always a clash remains. As a result law of every country significantly varies from the others.
Who will settle these things?
Here comes the question of the creator of the human beings that means God who as a doctor knows which is good or bad for us although some rules annoy us. For this reason I am searching the true and loving God.
Didn't want to hurt you,
[email protected]
How can there be a true god, if they are nothing but human imagination? If you want to find the truth you have to doubt everything and when i say everything i mean everything. You must pursue the truth at all costs you have to put your emotion away, disregard any beliefs that don`t stand up to reason these include God and afterlife no exceptions. The main thing is you have to care more about the truth than what makes you feel good. So the rule is no WISHFUL THINKING allowed. But let me warn you if you decide to take the road of enlightenment there is no coming back.
It is not difficult to define good and bad. What can harm others is bad. Treat others the way you expect to be treated.
There are primitive tribes in Amazon and Africa where women go topless. http://www.african-tribes.org/ Breast is not seen as something sexual. It’s a food source for the babies. Is being topless bad? That depends on the context. In the context of our world women’s breast is seen as a sexual organ. So being topless in public is seen as indecency. In those tribes where breast is not seen as a sexual organ it is not indecent to be topless.
The point is that each culture has its own values and also each person has its own values. No person should tell others what to do and how to live their lives. This is abuse. No person has the right to define morality for another person.
I am convinced that homosexuality is a disorder and it is in most cases a learned behavior. During the years my views on this subject has changed. At one moment I believed it to be a sin. Then when I gave up on that silly idea, I thought it is an anomaly beyond anyone’s control, much like being left handed. Then someone challenged me to do more research on the subject and I found out that it is actually a learned behavior. It is more like an addiction. Any heterosexual can become homosexual if becomes curious about it and any homosexual can recover from it. Our politically correct leftist dominated is laying to us and making us believe that homosexuality is natural beyond our control.
So I will write about it anytime I get a chance. Up to that point I am in my right. But if I try to take away the right of homosexuals by abusing them in anyway, I would be in violation of their human rights. My freedom ends where the freedom of others begins.
I don’t think nudism is right. But it is none of my business to impose my values on others. There is a nudist beach in my city. I discovered it when I was new to town. At first I saw a guy waling nude. I thought his is weird, farther away I saw a couple sunbathing nude. Then I realized this must be a nudist beach. I went back and saw a sign that I had not paid attention to, which said clothing is optional. Well I don’t like nudism and have never been in that beach again. It does not bother me at all if people go there and show off their genitals. Maybe my neighbors do it too, but I don’t know and I don’t ask or care to know.
The point is that homosexuality and nudism do not affect me. My freedom ends to express my views. But I have no right to impose my views on others. You should stick to your values and ignore what others do. It is simply not our business.
Dear Maruf:
You are a very brave man/boy (sorry, I do not know your age)
Any type of relationship between 2 consenting adult is their business and no one else should have the right to question it in any way.
What clothes I have to wear is absolutely my wish and no one else should have the right to question it any way.
For the above situations, we do not need come back with extreme examples in a world today where in we HUMANS even have the liberty to see the sun without any clothes onto our body BUT there is a place for it, we cannot possibly do that in a HOTEL LOBBY.
However, let me correct you my friend that when you talk about a ROBBER, the ROBBER knows very well that what he is doing is INCORRECT and IMMORAL and EVIL.
I will pray for you 🙂
Follow your heart, I leave you with a quote which may help you –
“RELIGION IS THE MANIFESTATION OF THE DIVINITY ALREADY IN MAN – SWAMI VIVEKANANDA”
Dear Prithvi ,
You said " It is our actions, our conduct which makes us a good human or a bad human, just focus on your actions and never worry for the unseen"
I am fully agreed with you.
Somebody tells, looking to a woman is bad, somebody tells looking is ok but touching is bad, somebody tells touching,kissing is ok but adultery is bad, somebody tells everything is ok if both agree. Somebody tells Gay is very bad, some tells no it is not ok. Some tells vegetarian is ok , some tells no it is right. Some tells bikini is perfect, some tells no- woman should be covered. A robber can say robbery is good because i can earn much money with less effort and enjoy a luxurius life but the victim will say it is harmful.
So the question is that who will define which is good or which bad.
It is obviously the God, the Creator.
Otherwise every right or wrong becomes meaning less.
For this reason I am searching the true God.
Pray for me.
Do not start on a negative footing is all what is being said my dear friend. A religion which is founded on the lines that others are wrong is negative at the very heart of its foundation.
Do not stop living for the unseen, it is just a promise and you would agree that promises turn out to be false also.
Can an evil man who has killed hundreds of innocents, just repent before dying to be granted into paradise, the answer is a big NO.
Would you continue believing in someone who tells you that he/she loves but in the background does everything to betray you; the answer is a big NO once again.
What do we call those, whose actions are different from their words, a hypocrite?
It is our actions, our conduct which makes us a good human or a bad human, just focus on your actions and never worry for the unseen for GOD can never be an unjustified despotic ruler whose only objective is to make humans submit to him come what may their past action has been.
If I am a leader of political party, I would never induct anyone in my party with a criminal background and I am certain that GOD is far better than me.
Sincerely
Dear enlightened25,
You tell that "at best only one of the gods can be true, but consider this if god is nothing but a human invention then who are you worshiping?
But I have to find out that only true God invented by human. Pray for me.
Maruf
[email protected]
If I find after my death that there is a God, hell,heaven what can I do then. can only humanity without believing that God can save me?
Dear Sanda_10,
You said "Go look at the Islamic sources and find out that this isn't true"
So could you tell me which is true pls because I am searching the Truth.
Maruf
[email protected]
Sure, Ma’ruf,
Find your own Truth, and may truth guide you in your quest in finding The True God…
Dear Monalisa,
I am searching a better religion than Islam. Could you help me?
Maruf
[email protected]
Dear Juste,
Thanks for your suggestion.
Since it is hardest always to take the first step to leave Islam that is why I have to at first choose the best God of any other religion than the God mentioned in Islam.
For this reason not here only in several places in the web I am asking suggestions from scholarly persons. Pray for me ?
Dear Ranger,
I have watched the full video on DVD of the debate between Sri Sri Ravisanker and Dr. Zakir Naik on the concept of God in Hinduism and Islam which also contains the Question and Answer Session. I found that at last stage Mr. Ravi Sanker was became angry, he always preached only love. But besides loving we should also tell someone the truth of the Hindu scriptures. He agreed that there is no idle worship in Hindu scriptures but he does not tell it. He agrees that there is no pantheism but he worships animal such as cow. He agrees that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) fathers name Visnuiash and mothers name Sumati mentioned in Hindu Scriptures those meaning in arabic is Abdullah and Aminah but does have courage to accept it.
Everyone who see the video can judge him.
I can only say that before we die we must search the true religion to save myself whether it hurts someone or no matter it attracts woe to me. I am ready to exchange all of mine in this life for following a true religion. In this path I am still searching. Pray for me?
Hi Maruf,
Were you born free to choose your religion? Or Islam was imposed to you as long as you can remember?
The hardest part is always the first step. Leaving Islam will grant you the freedom that you have never experienced before in Islam. Not to mention being true to yourself.
Suppose if you decide to leave Islam eventually, You can be spiritual too without being a muslim and you can also believe in God without being a muslim. All religions are man-made. To choose which one is better than the others you look at the followers. How the followers behave, are they excel in things that others are not etc.
Choice is yours.
Dear Ali Sina,
I have assumed you a learned, rationale, righteous man.
In your website you are advising Muslims to leave Islam and also you say you have left islam. At the same time you are not giving any solution after leaving of Islam which one to follow instead of islam as we can be in safe side following Blaise Pascal theory to believe in God. So you through us in a complete dark, vision less state. Is it righteous or rationale? If you are a well wisher, is it not appropriate that you must have to come up with a concrete solution. I hope that you will give a solution otherwise it may be a sin, will misguide people, your vision and mission is not to misguide people, increase frustration. You should not do this.
Maruf, [email protected]
Dear Ali Sina,
Thank you very much. I have read the refutations you have linked.
In spite of all this I decided that I must, must follow a religion !!
Then which I can follow?
"Furthermore I also watched the video to the debate between Sri Ravisanker and Dr zakir Naik on Concept of God." Zakir naik is a liar who can fool his audience in live debate watch this video of naik talking about 9-11 being a inside job http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwEjtond_Yg notice how naik gives no sources for his claims, but thanks to it being live he can get away with it and make the audience believe all his statements are true.
"So It is being difficult to me to disprove that Quaran in not Gods Word." See this site which lists the amazing scientific miracles of hinduism http://sanatandharma.tripod.com/ now can you disprove hinduism is not the true religion? Well actually you can see the fallacie becuse you can intrepret a book to say what you want it to say. Thats how some christians can claim genesis is miracle while simultaneously some claim its just a "metaphor" (and in complete harmony with evoultion and modern science.)
All those claims are lies take just one of them – big bang. muslims claim 21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? Is a scientific miralcle when in reality it is a scientific aburdity becuse at the time of the big bang the earth did not exist. That is enough to prove muhammed was a liar-as well as zakir naik.
"He told me not to believe him blindly rather he suggest me to read all other major scriptures including a translation of bible, Old testament, Veda etc and become a religious person by my own choice and research." All of those other scriptures are full of nonsense as well. It like a dictator saying yes you have a choice either saddam hussain or ahmadinejad. nazism or communism its your "choice" but democracy and secularism thats a big no-no.
Ok ! I really do not need to listen to this and that to reach an inference.
If the Quran is written by God, then it seems to me that this God does not know that in the
north pole the sun remains shinning 24 hours for six months in summer, and when there
is a continuous day light in the north pole, there is a continuous darkness (night) in the south
pole (and vice versa). He did not know that when he told the people that the fasting time during Ramadan is from the sunrise to the sunset.
Either God does not know that, or he does not know that there are people living in the north
and south of the earth, or the Quoran is meant only for the people of Arabia.
What is your pick ?
@Maruf
Check out this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukLYnR9FVrc&fe…
Here ravishankar is explaining what happened actually
Dear Maruf,
If the Quran were the word of God it would not have had any error. If there is one error in it, it is evidence that this book is not from God. There are over a thousand error is that book.
Let us assume for a moment that all those scientific facts Naik claims exist in the Quran. What would that mean? It means that thIS book is from Satan. He says something extraordinary to fool people and then makes them to evil things such as jihad and murder of innocent people.
But the truth is that there is no secret knowledge about anything in the Quran. All the so called scientific statements claimed to be in the Quran are deception. They are all lies.
Zakir Naik is a charlatan. He is a showman, a magician who deceives people and makes them believe lies are true. You say you watched the debate between Naik and Dr. Campbell and believe Naik won. I have dissected this debate, paragraph by paragraph by paragraph. Please go over it and you will see that Naik has only used deception. Not even one of his claims is true.
Here is my analysis of that debate. Once you read this you will realize how Muslims fool themselves and others with nothing but lies.
You can read the debate here http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbelli…
Or download it here http://www.mediafire.com/?ezwn5m3o1k2
Many people have written to Naik asking him to answer what I have written. He did not even acknowledge receiving their emails. Read what I have written and then write to him and tell him to answer it. You will get no response.
Dear Ali Sina,
Thank you for sacrificing much time to answer my query. Still I am in indecision because I have to save myself by hook or crook lest I can say to God that I have tried but could not find true religion.
You said that "The problem with Pascal’s gambit is that even if we assume that God exists, we can never know which religion is the right religion."
Although Is it not intelligent enough to choose a more reliable religion among the religions in the world to practice so that I will not be looser through study of comparative religion instead of sitting idle.
For this reason I have studied at first a translation plus a tafseer of Quaran and found some scientific facts in that. It is found in the quaran and I discussed with someone and he tried to convince me that:
Suppose we are in 6th century and someone has asked the following questions;
Does the Earth’s shape is like ostrich egg, flattens from both up side?
Do Sun, Moon and earth have defined axis and orbits?
Is the light of Moon is reflected light?
Is The Universe expanding?
Did the universe was close together and there was a big bang later?
What is the Structural makeup of mountains and its role on keeping stability of earth?
Is there any Barriers between various types of water in nature?
Did the earth created from hot smoke?
What is water cycle, how clouds form and it rains?
How human embryo develops?
Did Iron send down from outside of the world?
And he told me that we couldn’t answer any of the above questions because the answers were discovered by the science between 17th to 20th centuries.
But who could answer at that time of 6th century. The answer is the Creator or producer or manufacturer of the universe whom we called as God.
He is also telling me that we found those answers in the Quaran, the revelation through Muhammad (PBUH) which was revealed in 6th century. So Quaran is Gods word which is uncorrupted till now.
The other revelations such as Bible, Torah are also words of God but they were for the respective time and for then time people only and later were corrupted by the people of that faith. When Quaran was revealed all the previous scriptures have been annulled. It is chronological revelation following Torah and bible and the last & final. Prophet Muhammad was a prophet like Adam, Moses, David, Jacob, Noah, Jesus peach be upon them all.
He told me not to believe him blindly rather he suggest me to read all other major scriptures including a translation of bible, Old testament, Veda etc and become a religious person by my own choice and research.
I also watched the video to the debate between Dr william Campbel and Dr zakir Naik on Science in Quaran and Bible, There I found that Dr Naik answered logically and scientifically all the questions raised by Dr Campbel But Dr Campbel could not able to answer any of the 24 points raised by Dr Naik.
Furthermore I also watched the video to the debate between Sri Ravisanker and Dr zakir Naik on Concept of God. Here I found that Sri Ravisanker was absolutely defeated by Dr Naik. At last Sri Ravisanker has to agree with dr naik about oneness of God and other concept according to islam.and final messanger is prophet Muhammed etc.
So It is being difficult to me to disprove that Quaran in not Gods Word.
Can you help me with your wisdom.
There is an element of foolishness in those converting to Islam. When you read the testimonies of those who became Muslims and left it they all tell you that they fooled themselves deliberately. In other words they decided to ignore some key facts in order to believe.
Well I was not a convert to Islam but I can say that I also fooled myself for remaining a believer. I dismissed all the clues that could have helped me to see the light. I just did not want to see those things. Clinging to my faith was so important to me that I refused to even allow any thought that would shake my faith.
No matter how intelligent a person can be, there is a black spot in his mind.
I have met many men who converted to Islam, most of them are women haters,
and they have this desire to control them.
Some men are tempted by Islam because it gives them all the rights that
deprives women from.
I already sent an email 6 months ago asking him to visit http://www.faithfreedom.org to learn about the true Islam but I did not receive his response. Anyway, I will also ask him to read your book.
You should suggest that he read my book. The new edition is being translated into Tamil.
One Mr.Periyardasan who was a college professor and acted in a few Tamil films, was well known as an atheist and a rationalist and he was a follower of E.V.R.Periyar a famous preacher of atheism in 1960s & 70s in the Indian southern state of Tamilnadu. Two yeras ago, he converted to Islam and got his new islamic name Abdullah. When asked why he converted to Islam, he said "I was thinking there was no god and no life after death but recently I feared what would happen to me if there is God and the hereafter as Quran says. So I decided to convert to Islam."
I hope if he is really a rationalist as he claimed he will revert back from Islam.
Maruf at best only one of the gods can be true, but consider this if god is nothing but a human invention then who are you worshipping? Is it not the man that invented your god (in your case muhammed). Is it not better that you worship a god that you yourself invented, in accordance with your own emotional needs?
To Ali Sina "those who advocate violence and hate" then what about bin laden, what should with do with him? Try to reason with him or put a bullet in his brain? By the way do you think the man that did put a bullet in laden`s head was evil? Is it not time for the muslims and liberals to decide who they are with us the believers in life and freedom or the believers in death and slavery? Its our moral duty to defend ourselvers by deporting, imprisoning and yes if necessary killing our enemies. Now you can say Lies can be destroyed with truth but i am afraid the truth alone is not enough you have to doubt first. Now how many people are prepared to doubt?
Thank you Dr.Ali Sina, everything you said is exactly what I believe to be true too, it's just that I had never been able to articulate it this clearly. I hope more and more people all over the world will see it this way, I believe the world will truly be a better place.
Humanity, Golden Rule, ethical living based on reason instead religious commandment, even if there's no heaven and there's no hell, even if there's no god, be good anyway. It's its own reward.
Imagine that Sina was no longer on this earth, then his "fans" started to do violent deeds claiming that they had been inspired by him. Does this mean that Sina is teaching violence? The easiest way is to find out is to look at his articles and book. It's clear that his fans had hijacked and misinterpreted his writings. Now, how about Islam? Do muslim extremists hijack Islam? Go look at the Islamic sources and find out that this isn't true.
Pascal was wrong. You cannot really place a wager on a matter of faith, because simply you
cannot force yourself to believe.
Please watch this video on the YouTube for Richard Dawkins "What if you are wrong?".
When I used reason thinking about it, the reason told me all religions are wrong,
at the same time the reason told me that there is something behind all of this.
Actually, the atheists (deep inside them) believe in this power which the religious call
"God", but they do not trust Him. Ofcourse, they are not to be blamed after coming to
know His reality according to religions.
The best thing you can do is to follow your hunches and trust your own experiences, in another
word: believe in yourself.
Thank you, Ali Sina for shining a beacon of light on this "God business ". U have warned us not to be easily cheated. I think a man has nothing to fear in this life if he practise the Golden rule and always do good to others. In death and If there is God, his spirit will be sent to a comfortable place for training and be given a good rebirth, if you believe in reincarnation. God must be doing a great balancing act. Why many are born in poor n desperate families to suffer, and others to rich families to enjoy life. Now I am thinking of the refugees who have nothing other than hungry stomaches n the clothes on their bodies.
If evil doers can escape the punishment, then there is no God ? Why so many people suffer in this world for no apparent reasons.esp when they have not done any bad deeds to our knowledge. Does the Great Balancing Power , if any, has some scores (karma) to settle with them.?